high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

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Date: 14 Feb 2007 22:20:36
From: Pensrock
Subject: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace the
hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and like most
high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do have a couple
Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have a R7 driver that I
love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want something specifically for
a high handicapper, I would like to stay between $300-400 range. I was at
Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not like the feel of the Callaways, the
Titleists and Taylormades felt good but pricey. Thanks in advance for any
information/suggestions.
pensrock

--
'Stupidity should be painful'

Date: 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Pensrock" <pensrock@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:UWLAh.5636$8b1.2959@trndny03...
> Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace the
> hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and like most
> high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do have a couple
> Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have a R7 driver that I
> love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want something specifically
> for a high handicapper, I would like to stay between $300-400 range. I was
> at Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not like the feel of the Callaways,
> the Titleists and Taylormades felt good but pricey. Thanks in advance for
> any information/suggestions.
> pensrock
>
> --
> 'Stupidity should be painful'
>

Pensrock, see where the discussion is at now.

Have you ever played baseball? If so, have you ever hit the ball badly with
the bat? If so, do you remember how much it hurt to hit the ball badly? If
so, don't you think that because of that pain, you'd learn how to hit the
ball well or quit?

Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high handicap
axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any because
there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs? Don't
you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now?

Why don't you try to play with as few clubs as possible? Take a 7 iron, a
pitching wedge and a putter then see how well you score. You never know,
maybe you'll score much better than ever. If you don't score well, you'll at
least carry a lighter bag.

Think about it. You can play golf with as few as 1 club and as many as 14.
The rules say as much.

Forget about the score then, think of how much fun you're going to have. And
if you don't have any fun and don't score better, you'll at least save a few
bucks on the clubs.

And if you don't save money, if you don't have fun, if you don't score
better, what's the use of getting new clubs then?

Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:30:32
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "Pensrock" <pensrock@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:UWLAh.5636$8b1.2959@trndny03...
>
>> Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace the
>> hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and like most
>> high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do have a couple
>> Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have a R7 driver that I
>> love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want something specifically
>> for a high handicapper, I would like to stay between $300-400 range. I was
>> at Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not like the feel of the Callaways,
>> the Titleists and Taylormades felt good but pricey. Thanks in advance for
>> any information/suggestions.
>> pensrock
>>
>> --
>> 'Stupidity should be painful'
>>
>
> Pensrock, see where the discussion is at now.
>
> Have you ever played baseball? If so, have you ever hit the ball badly with
> the bat? If so, do you remember how much it hurt to hit the ball badly? If
> so, don't you think that because of that pain, you'd learn how to hit the
> ball well or quit?
>
> Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high handicap
> axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any because
> there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs? Don't
> you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now?
>

There's clubs designed for the high handicapper, just as there's clubs
designed for low handicappers and pros. Why wouldn't/shouldn't a high
handicapper use equipment that is designed to suit his game? -
peripheral weighing, low COG, offset, light shafts, etc., It's only
going to make his golfing experience more enjoyable as he'll play (or
should play) better. And besides, there's no guarantee that we'll all
progress to the point of being a low handicapper anyway, and so we could
be using those kind of clubs all our golfing days. I'm in my sixties,
and I don't expect to be using muscle back irons with stiff steel shafts
anytime soon!

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it'

Date: 18 Feb 2007 15:13:32
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:30:32 +1100, lynx <none@nothere.com > wrote:

>There's clubs designed for the high handicapper, just as there's clubs
>designed for low handicappers and pros. Why wouldn't/shouldn't a high
>handicapper use equipment that is designed to suit his game? -
>peripheral weighing, low COG, offset, light shafts, etc.,

Certainly the optimal club for someone with an 80mph swing speed is
different from the optimal club for someone with a 120mph swing speed.

And VJ's belly is as about as long as my long putter. He was #1 in
the world, maybe I should use his putter. I'd need to stand on
stilts to use it...

Date: 18 Feb 2007 18:58:39
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:03rgt2t8ko67v57flsch2bk4sh621gjg2p@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:30:32 +1100, lynx <none@nothere.com> wrote:
>
>>There's clubs designed for the high handicapper, just as there's clubs
>>designed for low handicappers and pros. Why wouldn't/shouldn't a high
>>handicapper use equipment that is designed to suit his game? -
>>peripheral weighing, low COG, offset, light shafts, etc.,
>
> Certainly the optimal club for someone with an 80mph swing speed is
> different from the optimal club for someone with a 120mph swing speed.
>
> And VJ's belly is as about as long as my long putter. He was #1 in
> the world, maybe I should use his putter. I'd need to stand on
> stilts to use it...

Optimal? It's the same club. What is different is the ability of each
player.

If the clubs "designed for" the 80mph swing speed was used by the player
with the 120mph swing speed, he'd be limited by the equipment. Hinder.

It the clubs "designed for" the 120mph swing speed was used by the player
with the 80mph swing speed, he'd not be limited at all. In fact, he'd be
able to go to the limits of his own ability without the equipment limiting
him in the least. Does not help.

See above? One hinders the player's ability, the other does not help.

Wait, do you think that the 120mph equipment is not suited for the 80mph
swing speed because it will produce slower swing speeds than the 80mph
equipment? Bullshit and you know it.

The ability of the 80mph player is the same whether he uses 80mph clubs or
120mph clubs. 80mph is what he can do no matter what clubs are in his hands.

The ability of the 120mph player is limited by the 80mph clubs. He would be
able to do 120mph and still be as accurate as with 120 clubs. So he'd be
force to slow down.

What do you prefer to think, that the clubs you use will improve your
ability or that the clubs you use will prevent you from reaching your
potential? They're the same clubs, just sold under different pretenses.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 23:42:52
From: Rog
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:NJ5Ch.5924$Fi3.258195@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
<snip >

How about a club designed to compensate for the users lack of ability.
Or am I out of my depth here?
Rog

Date: 19 Feb 2007 02:23:52
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:30:32 +1100, lynx <none@nothere.com> wrote:
>
>
>> There's clubs designed for the high handicapper, just as there's clubs
>> designed for low handicappers and pros. Why wouldn't/shouldn't a high
>> handicapper use equipment that is designed to suit his game? -
>> peripheral weighing, low COG, offset, light shafts, etc.,
>>
>
> Certainly the optimal club for someone with an 80mph swing speed is
> different from the optimal club for someone with a 120mph swing speed.
>

It virtually goes without saying. Pros couldn't use clubs with regular
shafts. They'd hit them all over the place. And they want clubheads that
allow them to work the ball.

> And VJ's belly is as about as long as my long putter. He was #1 in
> the world, maybe I should use his putter. I'd need to stand on
> stilts to use it...
>

Strange thing about putters.. it's all about feel. I putted great with a
$16 bullseye for years, after ditching my Ping Anser that did nothing
for me.

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Language was invented so women could complain'

Date: 17 Feb 2007 15:13:04
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high handicap
>axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any because
>there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs? Don't
>you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now

Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
designed for the casual user.

Date: 17 Feb 2007 17:53:01
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:op6et255a17nll4h6lnf5rjq5ton7si9hm@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high handicap
>>axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any because
>>there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs? Don't
>>you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now
>
> Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
> designed for the casual user.

"Designed for"

That's the biggest lie yet.

"Hey, look, I've designed this tool just for you because you suck at <insert
activity here >."

"Oh really? I should stop sucking if I use that tool then. Here's you
money."

Eh.

A tool can be designed for large hands, small hands, left handers, right
handers, tall people, short people, big people, blind people, deaf people,
dogs, cats, hamsters, for operation with the hands or feet or chin or
forhead or to fit a severed limb, high quality, low quality, expensive,
cheap, etc.

But get this, a tool can not be designed for low ability. You'll just have
to develop that yourself. The ability. Through practice. A lot of it. What
do you know, the professional players practice a lot and they have great
ability. And look what they play with, it ain't "high handicap" clubs. No,
they play with the good shit.

Because the alternative is that you believe that you can buy a game in a
box. Maybe you believe that there's a ball for low ability as well? Or a
glove? Or a shoe? Or pants? Or a hat? Or glasses? What's the next thing
you're going to buy that will instantly improve your ability? A cart?

Do you know anything about ergonomics? It's the applied science of equipment
design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing
operator fatigue and discomfort (direct quote from websters.com).

What is not said is that the work is performed by the worker, not by the
tool. What is not said is that it is not intended to increase productivity,
only to maximize it. What is not said is that it will increase the worker's
ability, not simply allow him to work to his maximum ability. "By reducing
operator fatigue and discomfort". Not "by increasing operator ability".

Well anyway, a tool can be made to fit you perfectly but it will still not
improve your ability like that "game in a box" gimmick. What a tool can do
is hinder your ability to perform the intended work. Such as a chair that's
too soft or too hard or simply awkward to sit on.

A properly designed tool is intended to allow the person to perform the work
unhindered.

If the hype was true, we'd all be driving like Michael.

Back to the golf thing. The club you're using can hinder you but it can't
help you. If it's designed to fit you perfectly, it will not hinder you the
least bit so you will be able to play to your full ability. On the other
hand, if the club you're using is not fit perfectly, it will hinder you in
all kinds of ways so that you will not be able to play to your full ability.
Grips are too small, too large, too tacky, too slippery, wrong shape, etc.
Club appearance hinders your ability to align it properly. Shaft is too
long, too short, too supple, etc. Head is bent too flat, too upright, too
closed, too open, etc.

This reminds me, when you're making compensations in your swing, would you
be compensating for poor ability or poor equipment? If you're compensating
for poor ability, it's called improving one's own ability. If you're
compensating for poor equipment, it's called badly designed equipment.

Seriously, if you don't know how to use a wrench, would you need a high
handicap wrench?

Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:46:10
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
> news:op6et255a17nll4h6lnf5rjq5ton7si9hm@4ax.com...
>
>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high handicap
>>> axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any because
>>> there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs? Don't
>>> you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now
>>>
>> Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
>> designed for the casual user.
>>
>
> "Designed for"
>
> That's the biggest lie yet.
>
> "Hey, look, I've designed this tool just for you because you suck at <insert
> activity here>."
>
> "Oh really? I should stop sucking if I use that tool then. Here's you
> money."
>
> Eh.
>
> A tool can be designed for large hands, small hands, left handers, right
> handers, tall people, short people, big people, blind people, deaf people,
> dogs, cats, hamsters, for operation with the hands or feet or chin or
> forhead or to fit a severed limb, high quality, low quality, expensive,
> cheap, etc.
>
> But get this, a tool can not be designed for low ability. You'll just have
> to develop that yourself. The ability. Through practice. A lot of it.

And not all of us have great ability, and not all us have the time or
even the inclination to spend hours and hours each week trying to
improve our game. We're not all club golfers. Many of us are
recreational/social golfers who play for enjoyment, exercise, and social
activity.

> What
> do you know, the professional players practice a lot and they have great
> ability. And look what they play with, it ain't "high handicap" clubs. No,
> they play with the good shit.
>

Why would they play with high handicap clubs when they're not high
handicappers? And conversely, why would a high handicapper play with
clubs designed for professionals.

> Because the alternative is that you believe that you can buy a game in a
> box. Maybe you believe that there's a ball for low ability as well?

Well if we can believe the manufacturers, there are! there's 'distance'
balls for example. Some of us have the ability to hit the ball harder
than others, can time the hit better, etc., so those with less ability
will benefit from equipment designed for lesser ability- such as balls
that go further with less effort.

> Or a
> glove? Or a shoe? Or pants? Or a hat? Or glasses? What's the next thing
> you're going to buy that will instantly improve your ability? A cart?
>

Yep! Just bought an electric golf buggy. Improves my game by causing me
to tire less quickly when playing a round. :)

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Don't hassle me. Others do it much better'

Date: 18 Feb 2007 09:25:57
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"lynx" <none@nothere.com > wrote in message
news:12tgf458jtpof28@news.supernews.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>
>> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>> news:op6et255a17nll4h6lnf5rjq5ton7si9hm@4ax.com...
>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
>>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high
>>>> handicap
>>>> axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any
>>>> because
>>>> there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs?
>>>> Don't
>>>> you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now
>>>>
>>> Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
>>> designed for the casual user.
>>>
>>
>> "Designed for"
>>
>> That's the biggest lie yet.
>>
>> "Hey, look, I've designed this tool just for you because you suck at
>> <insert activity here>."
>>
>> "Oh really? I should stop sucking if I use that tool then. Here's you
>> money."
>>
>> Eh.
>>
>> A tool can be designed for large hands, small hands, left handers, right
>> handers, tall people, short people, big people, blind people, deaf
>> people, dogs, cats, hamsters, for operation with the hands or feet or
>> chin or forhead or to fit a severed limb, high quality, low quality,
>> expensive, cheap, etc.
>>
>> But get this, a tool can not be designed for low ability. You'll just
>> have to develop that yourself. The ability. Through practice. A lot of
>> it.
>
> And not all of us have great ability, and not all us have the time or even
> the inclination to spend hours and hours each week trying to improve our
> game. We're not all club golfers. Many of us are recreational/social
> golfers who play for enjoyment, exercise, and social activity.
>
>> What do you know, the professional players practice a lot and they have
>> great ability. And look what they play with, it ain't "high handicap"
>> clubs. No, they play with the good shit.
>>
>
> Why would they play with high handicap clubs when they're not high
> handicappers? And conversely, why would a high handicapper play with clubs
> designed for professionals.
>
>> Because the alternative is that you believe that you can buy a game in a
>> box. Maybe you believe that there's a ball for low ability as well?
>
> Well if we can believe the manufacturers, there are! there's 'distance'
> balls for example. Some of us have the ability to hit the ball harder than
> others, can time the hit better, etc., so those with less ability will
> benefit from equipment designed for lesser ability- such as balls that go
> further with less effort.
>
>> Or a glove? Or a shoe? Or pants? Or a hat? Or glasses? What's the next
>> thing you're going to buy that will instantly improve your ability? A
>> cart?
>>
>
> Yep! Just bought an electric golf buggy. Improves my game by causing me to
> tire less quickly when playing a round. :)
>
>
>
> --
>
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'Don't hassle me. Others do it much better'
>
>

Explain "further with less effort" to me because the laws of the universe
explicitly forbid such behavior in an object.

I'll teach you even if you don't want to learn.

The fundamental principle of ability is that your ability is your own while
the club has none. From this principle we can deduct that any tool can not
be "designed for" any kind of ability. On the other hand, a tool can be
designed for a function, which is independent of the ability to perform the
function.

Once we understand this principle, it is easy to apply it to the game of
golf. A club is designed for a function, to send a ball to a target. The
player, using his own ability, performs this function using the club. The
player is fully responsible for the success or failure in the performance of
that function. The club has no merit whatsoever.

That does not mean that it can not be faulted. A tool can be badly designed
so that in turn it hinders the user's ability to perform the function. A
simple example is a user using a tool designed for a different function than
the one he is performing. Such as using a fork to cut a steak. Obviously,
the fork hinders the user in his performance of the function of cutting the
steak. He would fare much better if he used a knife instead.

But there is where we get confused, he would not fare better than his own
ability allows.

Capish?

Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The club
can hinder his ability through faulty design.

Now for the final lesson.

If straight to the target is best, what's better? The answer is nothing.
Nothing is better than best. Nothing is better than straight to the target.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 14:03:26
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message :
<snip >

> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The
> club has none. The club can not improve his ability through
> special design. The club can hinder his ability through faulty
> design.
>

You're right. The club can't improve his ability [through special
design]. It can only affect the outcome of his game: the score and
the enjoyment he experiences.

Curious to know what's in your bag tin and why you chose the
clubs you did? I see you play at Meadowbrook. Where do you practice
during the winter?

Date: 18 Feb 2007 18:43:10
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1q1Ch.4254$Fi3.123334@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message :
> <snip>
>
>> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
>> none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The
>> club can hinder his ability through faulty design.
>>
>
> You're right. The club can't improve his ability [through special design].
> It can only affect the outcome of his game: the score and the enjoyment he
> experiences.
>
> Curious to know what's in your bag tin and why you chose the clubs you
> did? I see you play at Meadowbrook. Where do you practice during the
> winter?
>

Do you know the saying "fits like a glove"? Any tool that is designed so
well that it fits like a glove, we forget it's even in our hands. That's
what proper equipment does. Improper equipment, we never forget it's in our
hands. I mean, it's sending all my balls to the right, left and anywhere I
don't want.

Tools are designed priily to perform a function. Then they are designed
to fit the operator. Golf clubs are the same. The original design is
intended to perform the function of striking a ball. The club fitter is
intended to fit the clubs to you. Not to your swing, but to your person. The
most important aspects of a fitting is the grip size and shape and the
clubhead lie. The shaft is not an aspect of fitting unless you wish to be
shielded from the pain associated with bad hits. The shaft is an aspect of
original design. So it is for the clubhead, it's designed to perform the
function or in certain cases to shield the user from the pain associated
with bad hits.

Or would you rather believe that the club you play with has the ability to
correct your mistake? No, it only has the ability to shield you from the
pain your mistake causes you. Since we don't want to improve, we will feel
more pain than the player who has improved. So be ready for it or get
dampened clubs or quit.

Is your equipment chosen to send the ball far from you or close to your
target? Or simply to fulfill your request? Do you request equipment that
will improve your ability? Or tools designed to perform the function for
which they were intended as best as can be? Or the cheapest sticks you can
buy? Or the most expensive just to show off how much money you have since
you have no other ability to speak of if that's the case? Or any club you
could get because you did not know anything about golf at the time you got
them?

Or do you choose the best equipment your money can buy, then have it fit to
you?

To perform the function for which they were designed. "To improve one's own
ability" is not one such possible function.

I bought two sets of used clubs when I started playing in '04. A set of 40
year old Wilson Staff Dynapower blades. A set of 20 year old Accuform Canada
PTM irons. I prefer to use the Accuform irons because I think that the
design suits the purpose for which it was intended better than anything else
available today or any day. Yet. Woods were given to me so no choice there.
Anyway, all were bought used and I had the PTMs fit by an idiot at GolfTown
so they don't fit as I'd wanted them to.

Have you ever gone to GolfTown? The selection is amazing. Imagine the same
selection tenfold but all of it used and sold back to the store. That's
quite a sight, all that discarded equipment to make space for the new. I
wonder what was wrong with that set of Accuform Canada PTM irons for them to
be gotten rid of.

I know what's wrong with them for me. The grips are too small, the shafts
are too supple, the heads are bent too flat from wear, one of them even had
a kink at the hosel. So I replaced the shaft, got new grips (still too
small) and had them bent to my liking. Almost.

I practice swinging the club at home. But that has become boring and serves
no purpose other than to prove that I can swing the club. I can do that with
any club, not just a golf club so what's the point. To remind me how much
I'd prefer to hit balls at the range all day long.

Back then, I didn't know shit. Now I know my shit better than most. See? My
ability has improved in the two years I'v played golf.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 02:12:56
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
> news:12tgf458jtpof28@news.supernews.com...
>
>> tin Levac wrote:
>>
>>> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>>> news:op6et255a17nll4h6lnf5rjq5ton7si9hm@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
>>>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high
>>>>> handicap
>>>>> axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any
>>>>> because
>>>>> there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs?
>>>>> Don't
>>>>> you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
>>>> designed for the casual user.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> "Designed for"
>>>
>>> That's the biggest lie yet.
>>>
>>> "Hey, look, I've designed this tool just for you because you suck at
>>> <insert activity here>."
>>>
>>> "Oh really? I should stop sucking if I use that tool then. Here's you
>>> money."
>>>
>>> Eh.
>>>
>>> A tool can be designed for large hands, small hands, left handers, right
>>> handers, tall people, short people, big people, blind people, deaf
>>> people, dogs, cats, hamsters, for operation with the hands or feet or
>>> chin or forhead or to fit a severed limb, high quality, low quality,
>>> expensive, cheap, etc.
>>>
>>> But get this, a tool can not be designed for low ability. You'll just
>>> have to develop that yourself. The ability. Through practice. A lot of
>>> it.
>>>
>> And not all of us have great ability, and not all us have the time or even
>> the inclination to spend hours and hours each week trying to improve our
>> game. We're not all club golfers. Many of us are recreational/social
>> golfers who play for enjoyment, exercise, and social activity.
>>
>>
>>> What do you know, the professional players practice a lot and they have
>>> great ability. And look what they play with, it ain't "high handicap"
>>> clubs. No, they play with the good shit.
>>>
>>>
>> Why would they play with high handicap clubs when they're not high
>> handicappers? And conversely, why would a high handicapper play with clubs
>> designed for professionals.
>>
>>> Because the alternative is that you believe that you can buy a game in a
>>> box. Maybe you believe that there's a ball for low ability as well?
>>>
>> Well if we can believe the manufacturers, there are! there's 'distance'
>> balls for example. Some of us have the ability to hit the ball harder than
>> others, can time the hit better, etc., so those with less ability will
>> benefit from equipment designed for lesser ability- such as balls that go
>> further with less effort.
>>
>>> Or a glove? Or a shoe? Or pants? Or a hat? Or glasses? What's the next
>>> thing you're going to buy that will instantly improve your ability? A
>>> cart?
>>>
>>>
>> Yep! Just bought an electric golf buggy. Improves my game by causing me to
>> tire less quickly when playing a round. :)
>>
>>
>
> Explain "further with less effort" to me because the laws of the universe
> explicitly forbid such behavior in an object.
>
> I'll teach you even if you don't want to learn.
>
> The fundamental principle of ability is that your ability is your own while
> the club has none. From this principle we can deduct that any tool can not
> be "designed for" any kind of ability. On the other hand, a tool can be
> designed for a function, which is independent of the ability to perform the
> function.
>
> Once we understand this principle, it is easy to apply it to the game of
> golf. A club is designed for a function, to send a ball to a target. The
> player, using his own ability, performs this function using the club. The
> player is fully responsible for the success or failure in the performance of
> that function. The club has no merit whatsoever.
>
> That does not mean that it can not be faulted. A tool can be badly designed
> so that in turn it hinders the user's ability to perform the function. A
> simple example is a user using a tool designed for a different function than
> the one he is performing. Such as using a fork to cut a steak. Obviously,
> the fork hinders the user in his performance of the function of cutting the
> steak. He would fare much better if he used a knife instead.
>
> But there is where we get confused, he would not fare better than his own
> ability allows.
>
> Capish?
>
> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
> none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The club
> can hinder his ability through faulty design.
>
> Now for the final lesson.
>
> If straight to the target is best, what's better? The answer is nothing.
> Nothing is better than best. Nothing is better than straight to the target.
>
>
>

In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design
equipment best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at
their best. End of story.

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Who are all these kids, and why are they calling me daddy??'

Date: 18 Feb 2007 18:04:50
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"lynx" <none@nothere.com > wrote in message
news:12tgr7qe4f834ab@news.supernews.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>
>> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:12tgf458jtpof28@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>> tin Levac wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:op6et255a17nll4h6lnf5rjq5ton7si9hm@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:50:17 -0500, "tin Levac"
>>>>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you ever tried to find a high handicap baseball bat? A high
>>>>>> handicap
>>>>>> axe? A high handicap hammer? If you did try, you wouldn't find any
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> there is no such thing. Why are you looking for high handicap clubs?
>>>>>> Don't
>>>>>> you think that after 6 years, you'd have learned something by now
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Metal bats are for the high-handicap leagues. I have seen tools
>>>>> designed for the casual user.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "Designed for"
>>>>
>>>> That's the biggest lie yet.
>>>>
>>>> "Hey, look, I've designed this tool just for you because you suck at
>>>> <insert activity here>."
>>>>
>>>> "Oh really? I should stop sucking if I use that tool then. Here's you
>>>> money."
>>>>
>>>> Eh.
>>>>
>>>> A tool can be designed for large hands, small hands, left handers,
>>>> right handers, tall people, short people, big people, blind people,
>>>> deaf people, dogs, cats, hamsters, for operation with the hands or feet
>>>> or chin or forhead or to fit a severed limb, high quality, low quality,
>>>> expensive, cheap, etc.
>>>>
>>>> But get this, a tool can not be designed for low ability. You'll just
>>>> have to develop that yourself. The ability. Through practice. A lot of
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>> And not all of us have great ability, and not all us have the time or
>>> even the inclination to spend hours and hours each week trying to
>>> improve our game. We're not all club golfers. Many of us are
>>> recreational/social golfers who play for enjoyment, exercise, and social
>>> activity.
>>>
>>>
>>>> What do you know, the professional players practice a lot and they have
>>>> great ability. And look what they play with, it ain't "high handicap"
>>>> clubs. No, they play with the good shit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Why would they play with high handicap clubs when they're not high
>>> handicappers? And conversely, why would a high handicapper play with
>>> clubs designed for professionals.
>>>
>>>> Because the alternative is that you believe that you can buy a game in
>>>> a box. Maybe you believe that there's a ball for low ability as well?
>>>>
>>> Well if we can believe the manufacturers, there are! there's 'distance'
>>> balls for example. Some of us have the ability to hit the ball harder
>>> than others, can time the hit better, etc., so those with less ability
>>> will benefit from equipment designed for lesser ability- such as balls
>>> that go further with less effort.
>>>
>>>> Or a glove? Or a shoe? Or pants? Or a hat? Or glasses? What's the next
>>>> thing you're going to buy that will instantly improve your ability? A
>>>> cart?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yep! Just bought an electric golf buggy. Improves my game by causing me
>>> to tire less quickly when playing a round. :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Explain "further with less effort" to me because the laws of the universe
>> explicitly forbid such behavior in an object.
>>
>> I'll teach you even if you don't want to learn.
>>
>> The fundamental principle of ability is that your ability is your own
>> while the club has none. From this principle we can deduct that any tool
>> can not be "designed for" any kind of ability. On the other hand, a tool
>> can be designed for a function, which is independent of the ability to
>> perform the function.
>>
>> Once we understand this principle, it is easy to apply it to the game of
>> golf. A club is designed for a function, to send a ball to a target. The
>> player, using his own ability, performs this function using the club. The
>> player is fully responsible for the success or failure in the performance
>> of that function. The club has no merit whatsoever.
>>
>> That does not mean that it can not be faulted. A tool can be badly
>> designed so that in turn it hinders the user's ability to perform the
>> function. A simple example is a user using a tool designed for a
>> different function than the one he is performing. Such as using a fork to
>> cut a steak. Obviously, the fork hinders the user in his performance of
>> the function of cutting the steak. He would fare much better if he used a
>> knife instead.
>>
>> But there is where we get confused, he would not fare better than his own
>> ability allows.
>>
>> Capish?
>>
>> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
>> none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The
>> club can hinder his ability through faulty design.
>>
>> Now for the final lesson.
>>
>> If straight to the target is best, what's better? The answer is nothing.
>> Nothing is better than best. Nothing is better than straight to the
>> target.
>>
>>
>
> In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
> golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design equipment
> best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at their best. End
> of story.
>
>
> --
>
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'Who are all these kids, and why are they calling me daddy??'
>
>

No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers will
tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.

In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
facts of life.

The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice. Their
quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and break such
that their quality drops. They are designed for a function. They are not
designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.

The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.

The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you powers
that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing to work to
acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp. Thank you.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 19:48:21
From: BAR
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:
>
> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers will
> tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.
>
> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
> facts of life.
>
> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice. Their
> quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and break such
> that their quality drops. They are designed for a function. They are not
> designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>
> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
> order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>
> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you powers
> that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing to work to
> acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp. Thank you.

I have a fish in front of me. I have the task of filleting the fish. I
have the choice of using a rock or a filleting knife. Which one will
enable me to do a better job of filleting the fish.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 05:49:16
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"BAR" <screwed@you.com > wrote in message
news:Mf6dndS2XJxIbkXYnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>>
>> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers
>> will tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.
>>
>> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
>> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
>> facts of life.
>>
>> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice.
>> Their quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and
>> break such that their quality drops. They are designed for a function.
>> They are not designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>>
>> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
>> order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>>
>> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you
>> powers that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing
>> to work to acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp.
>> Thank you.
>
> I have a fish in front of me. I have the task of filleting the fish. I
> have the choice of using a rock or a filleting knife. Which one will
> enable me to do a better job of filleting the fish.
>

The answer is obvious. But what if the knife was dull? It would hinder your
ability to perform the function of filleting the fish, would it not?

A dull knife, a sharp knife. A handle too small or none at all, only the
blade. The blade too short or too long or too stiff or too wide.

None of the examples above are designed for a specific ability. Yet we would
think of some kinds of clubs to have been designed for specific abilities.
For example, a very supple shaft is "designed for" women or seniors. It may
be designed for them but it's sold under false pretense of improving their
ability.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 22:32:36
From: Rog
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:IffCh.23255$n14.459809@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "BAR" <screwed@you.com> wrote in message
> news:Mf6dndS2XJxIbkXYnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> tin Levac wrote:
>>>
<snip >

How about a club designed to compensate for the users lack of ability.
Or am I out of my depth here?
Rog

Date: 19 Feb 2007 22:48:12
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Rog" <rog@repairman.com > wrote in message news:erd8hi$s2f$1@aioe.org...
>
> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:IffCh.23255$n14.459809@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "BAR" <screwed@you.com> wrote in message
>> news:Mf6dndS2XJxIbkXYnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> tin Levac wrote:
>>>>
> <snip>
>
> How about a club designed to compensate for the users lack of ability.
> Or am I out of my depth here?
> Rog
>

Compensate for the user's lack of ability by bringing some of its own?
That's impossible, the club has none to offer.

Not unlike the suspension on a car, the more dampening it has, the less road
feel it provides. Conversely, the more controllable the car is, the less
dampening it has, the more road feel it provides.

The same principle applies to the golf club. The more controllable it is,
the less dampening it has, the more feedback it provides. Conversely, the
more dampening it has, the less controllable it is, the less feedback it
provides.

In order to understand the relationship between feedback and
controllability, use extreme examples. A rubber rope versus a titanium
stick.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 11:46:24
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
> news:12tgr7qe4f834ab@news.supernews.com...
>
>>
>> In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
>> golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design equipment
>> best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at their best. End
>> of story.
>>
>>
>
> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers will
> tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.
>
> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
> facts of life.
>

Exactly. But only within limits. Some ppl have more natural ability than
others. Some ppl can't play golf at all! They have absolutely no talent
for it. And it wouldn't matter how much I practised, or how much effort
I put into my game, I would never be club champion, as I simply don't
have the ability or physical capability for it. Why do you think that
there are womens clubs? Because women are typically not as strong as men
and can't hit the ball as far. They simply don't have the ability that
men have.

> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice. Their
> quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and break such
> that their quality drops. They are designed for a function. They are not
> designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>

No, it's your argument that is ridiculous. Clubs do have 'ability'. A
driver has the ability to hit the ball further than a wedge. Titanium
drivers are able to hit the ball further than persimmon woods. And so on
it goes. And clubs ARE designed for an ability. Jack Nicklaus played
with clubs with tiny heads with a sweet spot the size of a dime. There's
no way a high handicapper is not going to hit 'game improvement' clubs
better than he would Jack's.

> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
> order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>

But we can only improve within the limits of our ability, or physical
capablilities if you like.

> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you powers
> that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing to work to
> acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp. Thank you.
>
>

What I believe is that clubs that are designed to suit my level of play
will help me play better and reduce the number of bad shots i typically
have in a round. If you have a problem with that, then we will have to
agree to disagree.

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Virus scan completed: All viruses functioning normally'

Date: 19 Feb 2007 06:06:11
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"lynx" <none@nothere.com > wrote in message
news:12thsr360v07bb2@news.supernews.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>
>> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:12tgr7qe4f834ab@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>>
>>> In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
>>> golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design
>>> equipment best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at
>>> their best. End of story.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers
>> will tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.
>>
>> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
>> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
>> facts of life.
>>
>
> Exactly. But only within limits. Some ppl have more natural ability than
> others. Some ppl can't play golf at all! They have absolutely no talent
> for it. And it wouldn't matter how much I practised, or how much effort I
> put into my game, I would never be club champion, as I simply don't have
> the ability or physical capability for it. Why do you think that there are
> womens clubs? Because women are typically not as strong as men and can't
> hit the ball as far. They simply don't have the ability that men have.
>
>> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice.
>> Their quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and
>> break such that their quality drops. They are designed for a function.
>> They are not designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>>
>
> No, it's your argument that is ridiculous. Clubs do have 'ability'. A
> driver has the ability to hit the ball further than a wedge. Titanium
> drivers are able to hit the ball further than persimmon woods. And so on
> it goes. And clubs ARE designed for an ability. Jack Nicklaus played with
> clubs with tiny heads with a sweet spot the size of a dime. There's no way
> a high handicapper is not going to hit 'game improvement' clubs better
> than he would Jack's.
>
>> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
>> order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>>
>
> But we can only improve within the limits of our ability, or physical
> capablilities if you like.
>
>> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you
>> powers that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing
>> to work to acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp.
>> Thank you.
>>
>
> What I believe is that clubs that are designed to suit my level of play
> will help me play better and reduce the number of bad shots i typically
> have in a round. If you have a problem with that, then we will have to
> agree to disagree.
>
>
> --
>
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'Virus scan completed: All viruses functioning normally'
>
>

My arguments are ridiculous and then you write that clubs have "ability"?!?

There's where your argument falls apart. A thing has no ability whatsoever,
it is not in its nature to have such quality. It may serve a purpose,
designed to perform a specific function, but it has no ability.

The only thing that can have ability in this case is you or me or anybody
else. And by the way, there is no such thing as limited natural ability. But
if that's what you believe about yourself, that's fine by me.

Your ability is your own and yours alone. You are the only one responsible
for your success or your failure. If you select the wrong club, that's your
failure, not the club's. If you make the perfect shot, that's your success,
not the club's. You own your ability entirely. The club owns none.

But the club can rob you of your ability through improper design,
manufacture or if it's broken.

Let me give you a fine piece of advice. If you're not strong enough, lift
weights, it will make your muscles grow bigger, thus stronger. If you're not
agile enough, juggle balls, it will practice your hand eye coordination. If
you're not intelligent enough, read and think, that always works for me. If
you're not accurate enough with the clubs you use, practice sending a ball
to a target about 500 times a day, eventually you will be able to send the
ball to the target with just about any club you can get your hands on.

I'm sure you believe that the equipment you use is suited to your ability.
The alternative is that you suck, you don't want to practice, you are lazy,
you believe in miracles and you want your game served on a silver plate with
a decent price tag.

I don't believe in anything.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 14:51:04
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:zvfCh.23486$n14.460541@weber.videotron.net...
>
snip
>
> I don't believe in anything.
>

I agree with you 100%. But since I don't believe in anything this cannot be
true :-)

dave

Date: 19 Feb 2007 11:00:34
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:sPiCh.3330$x74.2467@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:zvfCh.23486$n14.460541@weber.videotron.net...
>>
> snip
>>
>> I don't believe in anything.
>>
>
> I agree with you 100%. But since I don't believe in anything this cannot
> be
> true :-)
>
> dave
>
>

Belief and knowledge are two different and distinct concepts. I may not
believe in anything but I certainly know my shit.

Date: 20 Feb 2007 01:45:51
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
> news:12thsr360v07bb2@news.supernews.com...
>
>> tin Levac wrote:
>>
>>> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:12tgr7qe4f834ab@news.supernews.com...
>>>
>>>> In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
>>>> golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design
>>>> equipment best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at
>>>> their best. End of story.
>>>>
>>> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers
>>> will tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this truth.
>>>
>>> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
>>> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other shitty
>>> facts of life.
>>>
>> Exactly. But only within limits. Some ppl have more natural ability than
>> others. Some ppl can't play golf at all! They have absolutely no talent
>> for it. And it wouldn't matter how much I practised, or how much effort I
>> put into my game, I would never be club champion, as I simply don't have
>> the ability or physical capability for it. Why do you think that there are
>> womens clubs? Because women are typically not as strong as men and can't
>> hit the ball as far. They simply don't have the ability that men have.
>>
>>> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice.
>>> Their quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and
>>> break such that their quality drops. They are designed for a function.
>>> They are not designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>>>
>> No, it's your argument that is ridiculous. Clubs do have 'ability'. A
>> driver has the ability to hit the ball further than a wedge. Titanium
>> drivers are able to hit the ball further than persimmon woods. And so on
>> it goes. And clubs ARE designed for an ability. Jack Nicklaus played with
>> clubs with tiny heads with a sweet spot the size of a dime. There's no way
>> a high handicapper is not going to hit 'game improvement' clubs better
>> than he would Jack's.
>>
>>> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do in
>>> order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>>>
>> But we can only improve within the limits of our ability, or physical
>> capablilities if you like.
>>
>>> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you
>>> powers that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not willing
>>> to work to acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your magic lamp.
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>> What I believe is that clubs that are designed to suit my level of play
>> will help me play better and reduce the number of bad shots i typically
>> have in a round. If you have a problem with that, then we will have to
>> agree to disagree.
>>
>>
>
> My arguments are ridiculous and then you write that clubs have "ability"?!?
>
> There's where your argument falls apart. A thing has no ability whatsoever,
> it is not in its nature to have such quality. It may serve a purpose,
> designed to perform a specific function, but it has no ability.
>

If it's designed to perform a specific function, then it has the ability
to do what it was designed for. Simple. As wedge has the 'ability' to
pitch the ball high and lob it on the green. Try doing that with a driver.

> The only thing that can have ability in this case is you or me or anybody
> else. And by the way, there is no such thing as limited natural ability.

Well then.. you could easily become a fighter jet pilot, couldn't you.
Or the worlds best golfer. Should I tell Tiger now to watch his back?

> But
> if that's what you believe about yourself, that's fine by me.
>
> Your ability is your own and yours alone. You are the only one responsible
> for your success or your failure. If you select the wrong club, that's your
> failure, not the club's. If you make the perfect shot, that's your success,
> not the club's. You own your ability entirely. The club owns none.
>
> But the club can rob you of your ability through improper design,
> manufacture or if it's broken.
>
> Let me give you a fine piece of advice. If you're not strong enough, lift
> weights, it will make your muscles grow bigger, thus stronger. If you're not
> agile enough, juggle balls, it will practice your hand eye coordination. If
> you're not intelligent enough, read and think, that always works for me. If
> you're not accurate enough with the clubs you use, practice sending a ball
> to a target about 500 times a day, eventually you will be able to send the
> ball to the target with just about any club you can get your hands on.
>
> I'm sure you believe that the equipment you use is suited to your ability.
> The alternative is that you suck, you don't want to practice, you are lazy,
> you believe in miracles and you want your game served on a silver plate with
> a decent price tag.
>
> I don't believe in anything.
>

That's your problem then.

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'General Brain Failure! (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (O)h'

Date: 19 Feb 2007 10:59:11
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"lynx" <none@nothere.com > wrote in message
news:12tje139869je49@news.supernews.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>
>> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:12thsr360v07bb2@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>> tin Levac wrote:
>>>
>>>> "lynx" <none@nothere.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:12tgr7qe4f834ab@news.supernews.com...
>>>>
>>>>> In a nutshell: We all have different levels of ability in the game of
>>>>> golf, as with everything in life. Equipment manufacturers design
>>>>> equipment best suited to a players ability to assist them to play at
>>>>> their best. End of story.
>>>>>
>>>> No. The real story is that we are ready to believe whatever the makers
>>>> will tell us in order to hide the truth from ourselves. Even this
>>>> truth.
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell: Ability is not static, it can be improved or diminished.
>>>> Improved through practice. Diminished with age or injury or other
>>>> shitty facts of life.
>>>>
>>> Exactly. But only within limits. Some ppl have more natural ability than
>>> others. Some ppl can't play golf at all! They have absolutely no talent
>>> for it. And it wouldn't matter how much I practised, or how much effort
>>> I put into my game, I would never be club champion, as I simply don't
>>> have the ability or physical capability for it. Why do you think that
>>> there are womens clubs? Because women are typically not as strong as men
>>> and can't hit the ball as far. They simply don't have the ability that
>>> men have.
>>>
>>>> The tools we use have no ability. They do not improve with practice.
>>>> Their quality is highest when new, as they are used, they wear out and
>>>> break such that their quality drops. They are designed for a function.
>>>> They are not designed for an ability, the concept itself is ridiculous.
>>>>
>>> No, it's your argument that is ridiculous. Clubs do have 'ability'. A
>>> driver has the ability to hit the ball further than a wedge. Titanium
>>> drivers are able to hit the ball further than persimmon woods. And so on
>>> it goes. And clubs ARE designed for an ability. Jack Nicklaus played
>>> with clubs with tiny heads with a sweet spot the size of a dime. There's
>>> no way a high handicapper is not going to hit 'game improvement' clubs
>>> better than he would Jack's.
>>>
>>>> The truth is that we know for a fact that practice is what we must do
>>>> in order to improve but we are lazy. All of us. No exception.
>>>>
>>> But we can only improve within the limits of our ability, or physical
>>> capablilities if you like.
>>>
>>>> The truth is that you want to believe that this tool will grant you
>>>> powers that you normally believe that you don't have. Or are not
>>>> willing to work to acquire. Sign here. Pay this amount. Here's your
>>>> magic lamp. Thank you.
>>>>
>>> What I believe is that clubs that are designed to suit my level of play
>>> will help me play better and reduce the number of bad shots i typically
>>> have in a round. If you have a problem with that, then we will have to
>>> agree to disagree.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> My arguments are ridiculous and then you write that clubs have
>> "ability"?!?
>>
>> There's where your argument falls apart. A thing has no ability
>> whatsoever, it is not in its nature to have such quality. It may serve a
>> purpose, designed to perform a specific function, but it has no ability.
>>
>
> If it's designed to perform a specific function, then it has the ability
> to do what it was designed for. Simple. As wedge has the 'ability' to
> pitch the ball high and lob it on the green. Try doing that with a driver.
>
>> The only thing that can have ability in this case is you or me or anybody
>> else. And by the way, there is no such thing as limited natural ability.
>
> Well then.. you could easily become a fighter jet pilot, couldn't you. Or
> the worlds best golfer. Should I tell Tiger now to watch his back?
>
>> But if that's what you believe about yourself, that's fine by me.
>>
>> Your ability is your own and yours alone. You are the only one
>> responsible for your success or your failure. If you select the wrong
>> club, that's your failure, not the club's. If you make the perfect shot,
>> that's your success, not the club's. You own your ability entirely. The
>> club owns none.
>>
>> But the club can rob you of your ability through improper design,
>> manufacture or if it's broken.
>>
>> Let me give you a fine piece of advice. If you're not strong enough, lift
>> weights, it will make your muscles grow bigger, thus stronger. If you're
>> not agile enough, juggle balls, it will practice your hand eye
>> coordination. If you're not intelligent enough, read and think, that
>> always works for me. If you're not accurate enough with the clubs you
>> use, practice sending a ball to a target about 500 times a day,
>> eventually you will be able to send the ball to the target with just
>> about any club you can get your hands on.
>>
>> I'm sure you believe that the equipment you use is suited to your
>> ability. The alternative is that you suck, you don't want to practice,
>> you are lazy, you believe in miracles and you want your game served on a
>> silver plate with a decent price tag.
>>
>> I don't believe in anything.
>
> That's your problem then.
>
>
>
> --
>
> rgds,
>
> Pete
> =====
> http://pw352.blogspot.com/
> 'General Brain Failure! (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore, (O)h'
>
>

Of course it's my problem, I don't deny it. But since it's my problem, I
should know how to deal with it. And I do. Quite successfully I might add.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ability

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tool

The first definition of each.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 09:39:25
From: BAR
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

[ Pompus Ass Rantings Snipped ]

>
> But there is where we get confused, he would not fare better than his own
> ability allows.
>
> Capish?
>
> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
> none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The club
> can hinder his ability through faulty design.

Two trees of exact composition and dimension stand in the forest. A man
is given an ax and a rock and told to fell one tree with the ax and one
tree with the rock. Which tool helps his ability to fell the tree and
which tool hinders his ability to fell the tree?

> Now for the final lesson.
>
> If straight to the target is best, what's better? The answer is nothing.
> Nothing is better than best. Nothing is better than straight to the target.

Ok, that was insightful.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 10:06:51
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"BAR" <screwed@you.com > wrote in message
news:vamdnbKLRZyB-EXYnZ2dnUVZ_gydnZ2d@comcast.com...
> tin Levac wrote:
>
> [ Pompus Ass Rantings Snipped ]
>
>>
>> But there is where we get confused, he would not fare better than his own
>> ability allows.
>>
>> Capish?
>>
>> Now let's go back to golf. The player's ability is his own. The club has
>> none. The club can not improve his ability through special design. The
>> club can hinder his ability through faulty design.
>
> Two trees of exact composition and dimension stand in the forest. A man is
> given an ax and a rock and told to fell one tree with the ax and one tree
> with the rock. Which tool helps his ability to fell the tree and which
> tool hinders his ability to fell the tree?
>
>> Now for the final lesson.
>>
>> If straight to the target is best, what's better? The answer is nothing.
>> Nothing is better than best. Nothing is better than straight to the
>> target.
>
> Ok, that was insightful.

The "pompus ass" part is a matter of opinion and mine happens to differ so
fuck off. And thank you for fucking off. And learn to speel you facking
radin.

Now to answer your question about trees, an axe and a rock. The axe is
designed for the function of cutting trees. The rock is not designed at all,
it is simply a rock. Unless it's flint and was designed by a man of an
ancient ancestry for the explicit function of cutting a tree but I doubt
that's what you had in mind when comparing an axe to a rock. There's a few
functions it can perform but cutting a tree is not one of them. Hitting
yourself on the head would be appropriate but that's for you to determine at
this point.

Anyway, the axe would not help the man cut his tree, it would only allow him
to perform the function for which it was designed. The rock, on the other
hand, since its design is not suitable for the function of cutting a tree,
would hinder the man in the performance of such a function.

The fact remains, neither the axe or the rock have any ability whatsoever.
The man's ability is his own and only his.

Which reminds me of a tool used to write stuff on a computer. It's called a
keyboard and you seem to lack the ability to perform the function for which
it was designed. There's also the brain, but you wouldn't know what
functions it can perform. Pompus Ass indeed. the word is pompous, pompous,
get that through your head. From the word pomp, meaning parade, procession.
Meaning pretentious, inflated, turgid, bombastic. You failed to make your
entrance or your entrance failed to make the impression that you intended or
your entrance gave the impression that you wanted to point the finger and
laugh but you broke your foot in doing so. Ironic. Aha.

Respectfully yours,

The Pompus Ass

Date: 18 Feb 2007 17:19:47
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:06:51 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>Anyway, the axe would not help the man cut his tree, it would only allow him
>to perform the function for which it was designed. The rock, on the other
>hand, since its design is not suitable for the function of cutting a tree,
>would hinder the man in the performance of such a function.

But there are several tools designed for bringing down large trees.
Let's limit ourselves to hand tools for now and compare using an axe
or a two man saw.

The pros used a two man saw - does that mean it is the best tool for
me to use?

Date: 18 Feb 2007 17:51:42
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:th2ht2hruh770rm05drvkdahh7q7duqfc7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:06:51 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>Anyway, the axe would not help the man cut his tree, it would only allow
>>him
>>to perform the function for which it was designed. The rock, on the other
>>hand, since its design is not suitable for the function of cutting a tree,
>>would hinder the man in the performance of such a function.
>
> But there are several tools designed for bringing down large trees.
> Let's limit ourselves to hand tools for now and compare using an axe
> or a two man saw.
>
> The pros used a two man saw - does that mean it is the best tool for
> me to use?

I don't know, you tell me what's the best tool for you to use.

Date: 17 Feb 2007 23:24:38
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:53:01 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>Seriously, if you don't know how to use a wrench, would you need a high
>handicap wrench?

I suppose so the wrench doesn't slip on the nut.

I agree that we are better off knowing how to use a regular wrench -
but wrenches that are designed to not require an expert are being
made. Any statement that says golf is unique in catering to
"high-handicap" users is counter to what I have observed.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 03:36:21
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:qh3ft2tugk1hvua25i9rq3tddtu2ebe41h@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:53:01 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>Seriously, if you don't know how to use a wrench, would you need a high
>>handicap wrench?
>
> I suppose so the wrench doesn't slip on the nut.
>
> I agree that we are better off knowing how to use a regular wrench -
> but wrenches that are designed to not require an expert are being
> made. Any statement that says golf is unique in catering to
> "high-handicap" users is counter to what I have observed.

Let's put all this into the proper perspective.

So tools can be designed for high handicap players, hey? Ok. Let's design
tools for low handicap player as well just to make it fair for everybody.

Tool for idiots: Helps coordination. Helps power. Helps speed. Helps
precision. Helps accuracy. Helps in bed. Helps anywhere you need it and
more.

Tool for highly intelligent persons: Helps shit. Since you're a highly
intelligent person, you must be able to perform any work without any
external aid whatsoever so fuck off and use this shitty tool that will not
help you at all. Aha. Genius.

Let's see now. If I am highly intelligent, I'd take the tool designed to
idiots. If it did as advertised. But since I am highly intelligent, I know
better so I would not take the tool designed for idiots because there is no
such thing as a tool designed for a specific ability.

What about golf. Isn't it a game of accuracy? The hole is the target and
closer wins it every time. In fact, right in the hole wins it every time. It
certainly isn't "farther wins it every time" or "never in wins it every
time".

Now then, don't you think that the professional players would use the
equipment if it did help the player shoot the ball farther and straighter?
Wouldn't they all use game improvement clubs? They are called "game
improvement" clubs in every ad, magazine and website so I'm not telling you
anything you don't already know.

Oh but they prefer to work the ball and blades are said to allow the player
to work the ball. Is that the only advantage that these "blades" have over
the "game improvement" clubs? That's not even an advantage. Anybody can work
the ball just as well with any tool. Check your own ball flight for proof.
You like that slice? That's working the ball, although perhaps not
intentionally but it's still working the ball.

The true advantage blades have over high handicap clubs is the amount of
feedback they provide to the player. They provide a huge amount of feedback.
That means pain on bad hits. It means almost nothing on perfect hits. The
player knows exactly if he hit a good, bad or perfect shot. He knows it
immediately through this tremendous amount of feedback that blades provide.

Like an electric shock, this feedback is a great incentive to improve or
quit. Professional players improved. Others quit.

Now read the OP's signature then compare it to his post.

Date: 18 Feb 2007 15:09:45
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:36:21 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>Oh but they prefer to work the ball and blades are said to allow the player
>to work the ball. Is that the only advantage that these "blades" have over
>the "game improvement" clubs? That's not even an advantage. Anybody can work
>the ball just as well with any tool. Check your own ball flight for proof.
>You like that slice? That's working the ball, although perhaps not
>intentionally but it's still working the ball.

They also pick balls that they can work well. A high handicap
player is often better off picking a ball that doesn't have so much
spin, as the high handicap player is more interested in keeping the
ball from slicing OB.

Date: 19 Feb 2007 02:15:31
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 03:36:21 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Oh but they prefer to work the ball and blades are said to allow the player
>> to work the ball. Is that the only advantage that these "blades" have over
>> the "game improvement" clubs? That's not even an advantage. Anybody can work
>> the ball just as well with any tool. Check your own ball flight for proof.
>> You like that slice? That's working the ball, although perhaps not
>> intentionally but it's still working the ball.
>>
>
> They also pick balls that they can work well. A high handicap
> player is often better off picking a ball that doesn't have so much
> spin, as the high handicap player is more interested in keeping the
> ball from slicing OB.
>

Yep! - and cheaper ones cos they lose more! :)

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Most packages say "Open here". What's the protocol if it says, "Open somewhere else"?'

Date: 16 Feb 2007 22:55:14
From: iowagolf
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Feb 16, 5:08=EF=BF=BDpm, "tin Levac" <v...@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:
> "iowagolf" <suleima...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171632358.223559.13610@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 15, 9:19 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
>
> >> <v...@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
> >> >A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will
> >> >feel
> >> >just as good as hit well.
>
> >> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
> >> poorly.
>
> > fat shots can give you pain all the up your spine,when I started
> > playing I couldn;t believe how bad the pain was after =A0few fat shots,
> > it was a motive to improve!
>
> That's the reason for every problem in golf. Players quitting, players
> improving, game improvement clubs, hype, etc.
>
> Do you remember the old adage, no pain no gain? Well, there you have it.

I meant improving on my game and swing !

Date: 16 Feb 2007 05:25:58
From: iowagolf
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Feb 15, 9:19 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
>
> <v...@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
> >A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will feel
> >just as good as hit well.
>
> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
> poorly.

fat shots can give you pain all the up your spine,when I started
playing I couldn;t believe how bad the pain was after few fat shots,
it was a motive to improve!

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:08:54
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"iowagolf" <suleimanmd@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1171632358.223559.13610@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 15, 9:19 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
>>
>> <v...@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>> >A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will
>> >feel
>> >just as good as hit well.
>>
>> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
>> poorly.
>
> fat shots can give you pain all the up your spine,when I started
> playing I couldn;t believe how bad the pain was after few fat shots,
> it was a motive to improve!
>

That's the reason for every problem in golf. Players quitting, players
improving, game improvement clubs, hype, etc.

Do you remember the old adage, no pain no gain? Well, there you have it.

Date: 15 Feb 2007 22:17:24
From: Rog
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Date: 14 Feb 2007 20:51:13
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Pensrock wrote:
> Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace the
> hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and like most
> high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do have a couple
> Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have a R7 driver that I
> love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want something specifically for
> a high handicapper, I would like to stay between $300-400 range. I was at
> Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not like the feel of the Callaways, the
> Titleists and Taylormades felt good but pricey. Thanks in advance for any
> information/suggestions.
> pensrock

Don't get new clubs. Irons are basically the same thing from one year
to the next, except price. I suggest you try out some clubs and decide
if you like a particular brand or design, then try to find the next
closest thing from a last year or before. Then have them regripped.
You'll have damn near the same thing for a lot less money. With the
savings you can buy a couple of nice wedges or something.

Dave

Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:08:57
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

David Geesaman wrote:

> Pensrock wrote:
>> Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace
>> the hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and
>> like most high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do
>> have a couple Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have
>> a R7 driver that I love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want
>> something specifically for a high handicapper, I would like to stay
>> between $300-400 range. I was at Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not
>> like the feel of the Callaways, the Titleists and Taylormades felt
>> good but pricey. Thanks in advance for any information/suggestions.
>> pensrock
>
> Don't get new clubs. Irons are basically the same thing from one year
> to the next, except price. I suggest you try out some clubs and
> decide if you like a particular brand or design, then try to find the
> next closest thing from a last year or before. Then have them
> regripped. You'll have damn near the same thing for a lot less money.
> With the savings you can buy a couple of nice wedges or something.

When I hear pros saying that they carry three or even four wedges I
always wonder what they leave out of the bag.

>
> Dave

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'Alcohol is not the answer. It just makes one forget the question'

Date: 18 Feb 2007 15:06:23
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:08:57 +1100, lynx <none@nothere.com > wrote:

>When I hear pros saying that they carry three or even four wedges I
>always wonder what they leave out of the bag.

Most, if not all pros have more than 18 clubs - when they see the
conditions of the tournament, they select the clubs they wish to use.

The 14 clubs I generally use at my home course are:
Driver
5W
22�
4I
5I
6I
7I
8I
9I
PW
AW
SW
LW
putter

Check out the following link and look first at Charles Howell III

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22What%27s+in+my+bag%22&btnG=Google+Search

Date: 18 Feb 2007 13:04:05
From: Otto
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:ocqgt29e9oq36f3qq9cb451c6cp4ba3ndv@4ax.com...

> Most, if not all pros have more than 18 clubs - when they see the
> conditions of the tournament, they select the clubs they wish to use.

And occasionally the caddie forgets to thin the bag before the round begins
and the player has more than 14 clubs.

LOL!!

Otto

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:17:59
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:er0eaf13r1@news2.newsguy.com...
> Pensrock wrote:
>> Hi, I have been golfing for about six years and now want to replace the
>> hand-me downs I have been using. I'm about a 30-35 handicap and like most
>> high handicappers have trouble with my long irons. I do have a couple
>> Callaway rescue woods to replace my 3-5 irons and have a R7 driver that I
>> love. I'm looking to get some new irons but want something specifically
>> for a high handicapper, I would like to stay between $300-400 range. I
>> was at Dicks a couple weeks ago and did not like the feel of the
>> Callaways, the Titleists and Taylormades felt good but pricey. Thanks in
>> advance for any information/suggestions.
>> pensrock
>
> Don't get new clubs. Irons are basically the same thing from one year to
> the next, except price. I suggest you try out some clubs and decide if
> you like a particular brand or design, then try to find the next closest
> thing from a last year or before. Then have them regripped. You'll have
> damn near the same thing for a lot less money. With the savings you can
> buy a couple of nice wedges or something.
>
> Dave

That's pretty much what I did but it still cost quite a bit of money with
the fitting and whatnot.

Date: 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Date: 15 Feb 2007 08:19:44
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will feel
>just as good as hit well.

However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
poorly.

Date: 15 Feb 2007 15:08:34
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:lfu8t21evimimis7au0lpllu5i0uerqvjo@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will
>>feel
>>just as good as hit well.
>
> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
> poorly.

And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?

Date: 15 Feb 2007 17:09:21
From: Otto
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:b43Bh.8852$4W1.61995@wagner.videotron.net...
> And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?

Ball flight

and

Contact tape

Otto

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:10:50
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:wN4Bh.10610$6a.9917@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:b43Bh.8852$4W1.61995@wagner.videotron.net...
>> And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?
>
> Ball flight
>
>
> and
>
>
> Contact tape
>
>
>
> Otto
>
>

Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would you
know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
allowed at this time.

Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?

Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:01:33
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

tin Levac wrote:

> "Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:wN4Bh.10610$6a.9917@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
>> news:b43Bh.8852$4W1.61995@wagner.videotron.net...
>>
>>> And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?
>>>
>> Ball flight
>>
>>
>> and
>>
>>
>> Contact tape
>>
>>
>> Otto
>>
>>
>
> Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would you
> know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
> allowed at this time.
>
> Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?
>
>
>

It's silly to suggest that one can't feel a bad shot with a perimeter
weighted club. I have Callaway Big Bertha irons, and I always know if I
hit them perfect or not.

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'It works! Now if only I could remember what I did... '

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:17:38
From: Otto
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:WSqBh.30653$eD2.364775@weber.videotron.net...
> Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would
you
> know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
> allowed at this time.

I know by the feel of the ball off the clubface, the ball flight, the
distance, and the line.

Why no tape allowed?

> Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?

One that matches the picture in my mind.

Otto

Date: 18 Feb 2007 22:04:15
From: lynx
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

Otto wrote:

> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:WSqBh.30653$eD2.364775@weber.videotron.net...
>
>> Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would
>>
> you
>
>> know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
>> allowed at this time.
>>
>
> I know by the feel of the ball off the clubface, the ball flight, the
> distance, and the line.
>

Right!

>
> Why no tape allowed?
>
>> Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?
>>
>
>
>
> One that matches the picture in my mind.
>
>
>

In my case one that goes more or less straight ahead and not sideways to
any noticeable degree! :)

> Otto
>
>
>

--

rgds,

Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com/
'My wife got a mudpack. She looked great! But then the mud fell off'

Date: 16 Feb 2007 19:06:22
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:mYqBh.10520$z6.9086@bigfe9...
>
> "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote in message
> news:WSqBh.30653$eD2.364775@weber.videotron.net...
>> Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would
> you
>> know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
>> allowed at this time.
>
> I know by the feel of the ball off the clubface, the ball flight, the
> distance, and the line.
>
>
> Why no tape allowed?
>
>
>
>> Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?
>
>
>
> One that matches the picture in my mind.
>
>
>
> Otto
>
>

Otto, please quote in context.

Howard wrote:

"However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
poorly."

To which I replied:

"And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?"

To which you replied:

"Ball flight
and
Contact tape
Otto"

To which I replied:

"Suppose you believe in the hype about game improvement clubs, how would you
know then that you made a good shot during around? Bear in mind, no tape
allowed at this time.
Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?"

To which you replied:

"I know by the feel of the ball off the clubface, the ball flight, the
distance, and the line.
Why no tape allowed?
> Just to clear things up, what do you consider a good shot?
One that matches the picture in my mind.
Otto"

Now here's where you quote out of context and then continue in this "out of
context" mode of discussion:

If (from Howard): "However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit
the ball
poorly."

Then (from you): "I know by the feel of the ball off the clubface, the ball
flight, the
distance, and the line."

Is not possible.

I argue that the game improvement clubs the OP wants will _not_ allow him to
feel the pain associated with bad hits therefore he will not learn whether
he hit the ball well or not. You reply that you will feel the hits anyway.
Are you going to feel the bad hits or not?

If you can't feel the bad hits, you can't feel the good hits either. The
question here is not if you feel it or not, the question is if you agree
what the club makers say about their clubs. If you agree, you won't feel the
bad hits or the good hits. If you disagree, you will feel them.

Correction. I meant to write "during a round" when I wrote "during around",
hence the confusion about why no tape allowed during a round of golf.
Otherwise, we break the rules.

Date: 16 Feb 2007 20:03:09
From: Otto
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:4FrBh.24836$4W1.430987@wagner.videotron.net...
> Otto, please quote in context.

I generally don't go back and read the entire thread. I thought you were
asking me. sorry.

> I argue that the game improvement clubs the OP wants will _not_ allow him
to
> feel the pain associated with bad hits therefore he will not learn whether
> he hit the ball well or not.

I can tell a bad hit without pain. Even when it is cold.

My guess is that someone that has a ginal swing or spends little time
with their game may not.

>You reply that you will feel the hits anyway.
> Are you going to feel the bad hits or not?

Doesn't matter if it is a 1970's style blade or a big fat honking 2007
hybrid--I can still feel and see when I hit a bad shot.

> If you can't feel the bad hits, you can't feel the good hits either.

I shoot with some fatty Callaway X-18s and I can feel good and bad.

> The
> question here is not if you feel it or not, the question is if you agree
> what the club makers say about their clubs. If you agree, you won't feel
the
> bad hits or the good hits. If you disagree, you will feel them.

If I played once a month and had a bagful of hybrids, the only clue I would
have that the ball was struck badly is that it didn't behave like it had on
other "good" shots.

> Correction. I meant to write "during a round" when I wrote "during
around",
> hence the confusion about why no tape allowed during a round of golf.
> Otherwise, we break the rules.

If I want to go out and play a round of golf with some contact tape on it to
see how I am hitting the ball--that is my choice. I just won't record the
score with the USGA.

If the USGA doesn't like it, they can pay for some range time for me.

Otto

Date: 15 Feb 2007 13:14:50
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:08:34 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
>> poorly.
>
>And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?

I look at the results.

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:11:19
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:nnf9t2tf8qgip53ks0grdp1l4m7qgi5m9m@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:08:34 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
>>> poorly.
>>
>>And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?
>
> I look at the results.

Pain is the first result you'll be aware of, doesn't it count for something?

Date: 15 Feb 2007 20:12:36
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:08:34 -0500, "tin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>
>"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>news:lfu8t21evimimis7au0lpllu5i0uerqvjo@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will
>>>feel
>>>just as good as hit well.
>>
>> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
>> poorly.
>
>And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?
>
By seeing where the ball ends up. One's hands don't hurt from every
poorly hit shot, even with a blade.

Date: 16 Feb 2007 18:12:02
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:thf9t2l2a8qe0rep34hqvutgts9b2ldakb@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:08:34 -0500, "tin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>>news:lfu8t21evimimis7au0lpllu5i0uerqvjo@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:31:43 -0500, "tin Levac"
>>> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A blade hit badly will be painful. A high handicap club hit badly will
>>>>feel
>>>>just as good as hit well.
>>>
>>> However, I don't need my hands to hurt to know that I hit the ball
>>> poorly.
>>
>>And how will you learn that you've hit the ball well or not then?
>>
> By seeing where the ball ends up. One's hands don't hurt from every
> poorly hit shot, even with a blade.

What if you hit it badly but it still ends up where you want, does it still
count as a good shot?

Date: 17 Feb 2007 05:14:50
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

On 16-Feb-2007, "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

> > By seeing where the ball ends up. One's hands don't hurt from every
> > poorly hit shot, even with a blade.
>
> What if you hit it badly but it still ends up where you want, does it
> still
> count as a good shot?

No that is a nice result only.

--
bill-o

A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.

Date: 17 Feb 2007 11:47:38
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: high handicap iron suggestiions wanted

bill-o wrote:
> On 16-Feb-2007, "tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> By seeing where the ball ends up. One's hands don't hurt from every
>>> poorly hit shot, even with a blade.
>>
>> What if you hit it badly but it still ends up where you want, does it
>> still
>> count as a good shot?
>
> No that is a nice result only.

I barely expect my ball to end up forward of my tee; so every shot I take
must be a good shot!