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Main
Date: 18 Sep 2006 09:36:58
From: warren montgomery
Subject: trapping the ball against the turf?
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One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
(i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 10:18:57
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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David Laville has said to try and drive the ball into the fairway.
When I hit good approach shots the ball makes a nice deep 'clunk' sound
and flies true and straight with a divot about the size of a dollar
after the ball (sometimes smaller depending on the club: shorter
clubs=deeper divots). I do not try to take a divot, it just happens.
As correctly stated in the good previous posts, this is a result of
impacting the ball before the low point in the swing. The ball leaves
the club face at a 90 degree angle, then the leading edge of the club
contacts the ground. I think that the divot is also a result of that
law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 09:40:10
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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warren montgomery wrote:
> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
They mean having their hands leading the clubhead at impact--with the
left wrist bowed toward the target-- which takes the loft off the
clubhead. The ball flight stays very low--and there is little
backspin imparted to the ball. This is useful in high winds and the
ball rolls and rolls.
But the Director of Golf at my club, himself from Texas and a top
tournament player (on the verge of making the Champion's Tour) strongly
advises students against trying to do that. He said "trapping the
ball" is the refuge of unorthodox self-taught golfers-- and no really
good tournament player needs that except in very very rare
circumstances. He advised me just to keep working to hit it straight
with normal strokes.
Larry
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:10:26
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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larryrsf wrote:
> warren montgomery wrote:
>
>>One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
>>instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
>>against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
>>divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
>>are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
>>they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
>>that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
>>Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
>>(i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
>>clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
>>likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
>
>
> They mean having their hands leading the clubhead at impact--with the
> left wrist bowed toward the target-- which takes the loft off the
> clubhead. The ball flight stays very low--and there is little
> backspin imparted to the ball. This is useful in high winds and the
> ball rolls and rolls.
>
I think in this case Warren is referring to a specific article in the
most recent Golf Digest. Tiger's discussing how his new, more shallow
swing helps him control the distance on his short irons a little better.
The quote (from a picture caption) is "I like to trap the ball against
the turf, not dig big divots". So, I think he's just using the phrase to
describe a certain "feel" ... where you're still hitting down on the
ball (the "trap" part), but not quite as steeply as he used to do, and
not taking as big of a divot.
Rob
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 08:52:32
From:
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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warren montgomery wrote:
> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
>
> --
> Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
> http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
Its the feeling that you get with a well struck shot with the correct
angle of attack and solid contact on the sweetspot. You feel the ball
compress then impact with the turf an instant later so it feels like
the ball is being squashed into the turf. But the ball isn't really
being trapped, obviously, as you pointed out!
Babbs
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 16:37:20
From: Roger Thaat
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
>
> Its the feeling that you get with a well struck shot with the correct
> angle of attack and solid contact on the sweetspot. You feel the ball
> compress then impact with the turf an instant later so it feels like
> the ball is being squashed into the turf. But the ball isn't really
> being trapped, obviously, as you pointed out!
> Babbs
>
It's another of those golf swing things that "feels" a certain way, but
in actuality is quite different. Another example: you're trying to
"feel" like you're taking the club back low and outside, but actually
it's rising and moving inside.
Trapping the ball if a feeling. You're actually catching the ball in the
middle of the sweet spot just before the club reaches the bottom of its
swing arc and enters the turf. Of course, by the time the club actually
contacts the turf, the ball is long gone, on its perfect, penetrating,
accurate and fabulous path to the hole.
--
Roger Thaat
You may remember me. I used to be called Howard U. Dewing, but only one
guy ever answered the question.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 08:03:06
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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warren montgomery wrote:
> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> are talking about.
It's a bunch of bull. It's golfers thinking they are physicists.
What they THINK is happening is that hitting down on the ball will
compress the ball between the ground and the clubface. The problem is,
it doesn't happen. The loft of the club causes the ball to immediately
go UP when it's hit (we're talking in a normal well struck shot, not
someone who tops the ball into the turf).
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 20:06:59
From: Tom K
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1158591786.244884.222120@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> warren montgomery wrote:
>> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
>> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
>> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a
>> big
>> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what
>> they
>> are talking about.
>
> It's a bunch of bull. It's golfers thinking they are physicists.
>
> What they THINK is happening is that hitting down on the ball will
> compress the ball between the ground and the clubface. The problem is,
> it doesn't happen. The loft of the club causes the ball to immediately
> go UP when it's hit (we're talking in a normal well struck shot, not
> someone who tops the ball into the turf).
One question then.
What causes the ball flight to be much higher when hitting down on the ball
(hitting the ball and the ground at the same time with a descending blow)
vs. sweeping the ball, IF the face angle of the club didn't change?
Something has to be changing the dynamics of what's going on... to allow the
ball to go higher.
--Tom
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Date: 19 Sep 2006 00:56:29
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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Tom K wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1158591786.244884.222120@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>warren montgomery wrote:
>>
>>>One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
>>>instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
>>>against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a
>>>big
>>>divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what
>>>they
>>>are talking about.
>>
>>It's a bunch of bull. It's golfers thinking they are physicists.
>>
>>What they THINK is happening is that hitting down on the ball will
>>compress the ball between the ground and the clubface. The problem is,
>>it doesn't happen. The loft of the club causes the ball to immediately
>>go UP when it's hit (we're talking in a normal well struck shot, not
>>someone who tops the ball into the turf).
>
>
> One question then.
>
> What causes the ball flight to be much higher when hitting down on the ball
> (hitting the ball and the ground at the same time with a descending blow)
> vs. sweeping the ball, IF the face angle of the club didn't change?
>
> Something has to be changing the dynamics of what's going on... to allow the
> ball to go higher.
>
> --Tom
Who says it does go higher? I think it *might* fly higher, but there's
several factors at work.
All things being equal (which they never are), hitting down will cause
more backspin and that will cause the ball to get up in the air more.
But in fact, the effective angle of the club does change if you hit
"down" (a tricky word there), because you deloft the club ... so if you
deloft it enough (and maybe play the ball back a bit), you actually get
the "knockdown" shot that Larry described ... the ball flies lower.
In some cases "sweeping" the ball will add effective loft and the ball
may actually go higher with that kind of swing. That's usually not
desirable because it produces a weak shot. Good golfers often prefer a
more boring trajectory ... more distance and less affected by wind.
But, if someone is "sweeping" and their shots fly lower, it's probably
because they're making poor contact ... hitting the ball too much with
the leading edge of the club instead of in the center. This, I believe,
is the main reason hitting "down" on the ball is good ... to hit the
ball with the "fat" part of the iron face (and I think a downward
trajectory of the club gives you a slightly larger margin for error too).
What was your question again? 8^)
Rob
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 19:44:31
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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(DaveB) wrote:
> On 18 Sep 2006 19:06:46 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >warren montgomery wrote:
> >> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> >> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> >> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> >> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> >> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
> >> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
> >> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
> >> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
> >> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
> >> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
> >> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
> >
> >I think it is more "feeling" than anything else, but one thing that
> >pros
> >do is hit the ball with the hands ahead of the ball at impact with
> >their
> >irons. If you look at their impact, it is usually centered on the
> >fifth
> >groove up from the bottom. The ball compresses against the clubface
> >and rolls up the the clubface touching more grooves on the way.
> >
> >The typical amateur hits the ball lower on the clubface, with the hands
> >not as far ahead of the ball, or quite likely behind the ball at
> >impact,
> >and the ball bounces off the clubface without rolling up, so there is
> >less
> >spin.
> >
>
> I have hit a pitching wedge (guess I trapped it) but I actually felt
> the ball on the groves as it came up the loft of the club.
>
> Imagination? Anyone ever think they felt this occur?
I know what fifth groove impact feels like, because I get it
from time to time, even with my crappy swing. I know
because I can see the impact mark on my clubface. Can't
say I can feel the ball actually rolling up the club, but does
feel a LOT different/better, and the ball flight is different
(penetrating/rising vs arched).
A good way to check impact is to use a dry erase marker to
mark the back of a ball, and then see what the impact looks
like on the clubface. This presumes, of course, that the ball
is sitting on the ground, and not teed up.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 22:22:45
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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warren montgomery wrote:
> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
My understanding is they hit the ball a little below the centerline of
the club. In other words, they play it a little thin, so that the
leading edge of the club is right at base of the ball. I own(ed?) a
copy of Greg Norman's book about advanced golf, and it had pics of the
well-worn faces of his short irons - the wear was concentrated exactly
as I described above.
The result, as you may know, is a lower ball flight with more spin. It
definitely makes a thunkish sound, since you're not hitting the ball at
the most acoustically perfect part of the clubhead.
As for the bunk of 'trapping' a ball, yes it's truly bunk. But the
visual of keeping the hands a little ahead and catching all ball is
valuable enough that I have no problem with it.
Dave
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 19:06:46
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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warren montgomery wrote:
> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
I think it is more "feeling" than anything else, but one thing that
pros
do is hit the ball with the hands ahead of the ball at impact with
their
irons. If you look at their impact, it is usually centered on the
fifth
groove up from the bottom. The ball compresses against the clubface
and rolls up the the clubface touching more grooves on the way.
The typical amateur hits the ball lower on the clubface, with the hands
not as far ahead of the ball, or quite likely behind the ball at
impact,
and the ball bounces off the clubface without rolling up, so there is
less
spin.
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Date: 19 Sep 2006 02:22:39
From: DaveB
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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On 18 Sep 2006 19:06:46 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
<bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>warren montgomery wrote:
>> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
>> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
>> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a big
>> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what they
>> are talking about. It's clear to me whenever I watch top tier pros that
>> they hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us -- producing
>> that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a low ball flight with lots of spin.
>> Now I can think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit it above the centerline
>> (i.e. top it), and make contact with the your hands so far ahead of the
>> clubhead that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound to me
>> likely to produce a good shot, so what do these guys really mean?
>
>I think it is more "feeling" than anything else, but one thing that
>pros
>do is hit the ball with the hands ahead of the ball at impact with
>their
>irons. If you look at their impact, it is usually centered on the
>fifth
>groove up from the bottom. The ball compresses against the clubface
>and rolls up the the clubface touching more grooves on the way.
>
>The typical amateur hits the ball lower on the clubface, with the hands
>not as far ahead of the ball, or quite likely behind the ball at
>impact,
>and the ball bounces off the clubface without rolling up, so there is
>less
>spin.
>
I have hit a pitching wedge (guess I trapped it) but I actually felt
the ball on the groves as it came up the loft of the club.
Imagination? Anyone ever think they felt this occur?
Regards
Daveb
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 20:34:35
From:
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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>trapping the ball against the turf?
>Group: rec.sport.golf Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2006, 9:36am From:
wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net
>(warren=A0montgomery)
>One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had
>a short piece of instruction from Tiger where he talked
>about wanting to trap the ball against the turf (I
>think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a
>big divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I
>really don't know what they are talking about. It's clear
>to me whenever I watch top tier pros that they
>hit irons in particular differently from the rest of us
>-- producing that soft "thunk" sound at impact and a
>low ball flight with lots of spin. Now I can
>think of two ways to "trap the ball -- hit
>it above the centerline (i.e. top it), and make contact
>with the your hands so far ahead of the clubhead
>that the clubface has negative loft. Neither of these sound
>to me likely to produce a good shot, so what
>do these guys really mean?
>--
>Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
shame on you warren for being so naive.:--) the club's natural loft
remains, the approach is normal, the club face strikes the ball JUST
below the equator.
the divot can be variable depending on the turf, but the objective is to
stop the ball short of a hazard due to pin placement, and or at a
projected point on the green.
btw - additional effort is used to effect a custom shot of this type.
ps - after reading some of the responses during technical problems that
prevented sending this response, I come to the conclusion - that some
need to hit the books - harder.
>m h o
> v =83e
>=A0=A0=A0=A0* d r i v e =A0l e s s -=A0c r e a t e =A0a =A0g l u t *
> d w n =A0w / t h e =A0$ c a l p e r - u $ e =A0l e $ $ =A0g a $
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 18:50:02
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
..............
I think Tiger was referring to the concept and "feeling" of trapping the
ball, not actually doing it. From reading the responses, it looks like a
war of semantics is likely, but I agree with some of what has been said...
When I used the term, referring to your wet sand post, I meant trapping as I
know the term. Ball back (sometimes way back) in stance, gripped down,
hands well forward, shallow impact angle, face delofted, mostly an "arm"
swing. The object is to keep the ball low, with plenty of power, if needed.
Pretty handy shot, when the "right" club won't work because there's tree in
your face (and several other situations). I also just described how I chip.
This method also works like a sumbitch for zinging one around a corner with
a hard-rolling hook or slice. OK, maybe it's not for sane people, or people
who are constantly in the middle.
Unc
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 10:44:38
From:
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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larryrsf wrote:
>
> They mean having their hands leading the clubhead at impact--with the
> left wrist bowed toward the target-- which takes the loft off the
> clubhead. The ball flight stays very low--and there is little
> backspin imparted to the ball. This is useful in high winds and the
> ball rolls and rolls.
We call that "chipping" over here.
Babbs
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Date: 19 Sep 2006 09:17:55
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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Tom K wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1158591786.244884.222120@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > warren montgomery wrote:
> >> One of the golf mags I was reading yesterday had a short piece of
> >> instruction from Tiger where he talked about wanting to trap the ball
> >> against the turf (I think he offered it as an alternative to gouging a
> >> big
> >> divot) I've heard others talk about this, but I really don't know what
> >> they
> >> are talking about.
> >
> > It's a bunch of bull. It's golfers thinking they are physicists.
> >
> > What they THINK is happening is that hitting down on the ball will
> > compress the ball between the ground and the clubface. The problem is,
> > it doesn't happen. The loft of the club causes the ball to immediately
> > go UP when it's hit (we're talking in a normal well struck shot, not
> > someone who tops the ball into the turf).
>
> One question then.
>
> What causes the ball flight to be much higher when hitting down on the ball
> (hitting the ball and the ground at the same time with a descending blow)
> vs. sweeping the ball, IF the face angle of the club didn't change?
>
> Something has to be changing the dynamics of what's going on... to allow the
> ball to go higher.
Two things: You're starting with a premise that isn't necessarily
true. I can easily hit down on the ball and make it fly LOWER than if
I sweep it. So I don't necessarily agree with your premise.
But I'll go on: When someone hits down on the ball vs. sweeping, I
generally find that the ball is better struck and the clubhead speed is
higher than when "sweeping", thus more backspin will be imparted on the
ball which will make it go higher.
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 10:42:31
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
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Everybody is talking about the ball hitting the clubface at a certain
spot. I think everyone is referring to the same location on the
clubface: the sweet spot.
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 19:35:44
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
|
KnighT wrote:
> Everybody is talking about the ball hitting the clubface at a certain
> spot. I think everyone is referring to the same location on the
> clubface: the sweet spot.
It is more than that. To hit the ball off the turf with an iron,
with the impact point centered on the fifth groove, your hands
have to be ahead of the ball at impact, and you will hit the ball
before the club touches the ground. If you cast or flip, you
will not be able to do this.
Hitting on the sweet spot is another desirable coincidence,
but not the main thing.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 10:10:57
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: trapping the ball against the turf?
|
I agree. This fits into one of the three design elements for all clubs
(except putter): A FORWARD LEANING CLUBSHAFT.
Birdie Bill wrote:
> KnighT wrote:
> > Everybody is talking about the ball hitting the clubface at a certain
> > spot. I think everyone is referring to the same location on the
> > clubface: the sweet spot.
>
> It is more than that. To hit the ball off the turf with an iron,
> with the impact point centered on the fifth groove, your hands
> have to be ahead of the ball at impact, and you will hit the ball
> before the club touches the ground. If you cast or flip, you
> will not be able to do this.
>
> Hitting on the sweet spot is another desirable coincidence,
> but not the main thing.
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