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Main
Date: 18 Oct 2006 09:58:28
From: Tony
Subject: provisional balls
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Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
is hit -- and you hole it.
Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
their ball with a big red stripe.
Under the rules, there goes your par.
Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 10:42:17
From:
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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Jon in da UP wrote:
> See ROG Desisons
>
> 27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play
>
>
> Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a
> provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original
> ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original
> ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?
>
> A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as
> soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not
> already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for
> it.
Jon, this isn't the applicable decision. The OP was talking about the
original ball being found, and whether or not there was then an
obligation to identify (and potentially continue) with that ball. This
aspect is specifically dealt with in 27-2c/2.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:55:19
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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On 18 2006 10:42:17 -0700, sugnaboris@gmail.com wrote:
>> A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as
>> soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not
>> already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for
>> it.
>
>Jon, this isn't the applicable decision. The OP was talking about the
>original ball being found, and whether or not there was then an
>obligation to identify (and potentially continue) with that ball. This
>aspect is specifically dealt with in 27-2c/2.
Sure it's applicable. The whole question was based on when the
provisional became the ball in play. One might guess it became in
play when it went in the hole - but this decision shows that it was
not yet in play when the original ball was found.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 13:29:11
From: Jon in da UP
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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"Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161190708.706024.323040@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
> is hit -- and you hole it.
>
> Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
> in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
> their ball with a big red stripe.
>
> Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
> Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
> hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
> Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
> unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
>
See ROG Desisons
27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play
Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a
provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original
ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original
ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?
A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as
soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not
already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for
it.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 17:50:08
From: Bob
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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"Jon in da UP" <ten.pu@pdunoj > wrote in message
news:IvtZg.18$rR1.16@newsfe06.lga...
> See ROG Desisons
>
> 27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play
>
>
> Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays
> a
> provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original
> ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the
> original
> ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?
>
> A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as
> soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not
> already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search
> for
> it.
>
So, what you need to do:
- take a suitable club (I'd use my 9 iron) and whack your playing partners
in the shins so they can't walk too quickly. Alternatively, if the cart
girl is in range, call her over and tell your playing partners that the beer
is on you.
- run up to the green ... make sure you have your eyes closed as you pass by
the area where you hit your first shot.
- snatch that par out of the hole.
If you're going to play this game, you gotta know the rules ...
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 10:24:48
From:
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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Tony wrote:
> Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
> is hit -- and you hole it.
>
> Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
> in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
> their ball with a big red stripe.
>
> Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
> Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
> hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
> Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
> unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
Yes. See decision 27-2c/2.
(Although you're quite entitled to hole your 2nd shot, if you so wish.)
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 13:19:01
From: sfb
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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If you have to ask, you aren't golfer. Try NASCAR where the only crime is
getting caught.
"Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161190708.706024.323040@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
> is hit -- and you hole it.
>
> Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
> in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
> their ball with a big red stripe.
>
> Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
> Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
> hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
> Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
> unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
>
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 13:17:17
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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"Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161190708.706024.323040@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
> is hit -- and you hole it.
>
> Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
> in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
> their ball with a big red stripe.
>
> Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
> Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
> hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
> Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
> unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
>
You must play your original ball, if found and regardless of who found it
and I'm certain that you are under the obligation to identify the ball that
is found, unless you continue to play your provisional past the point where
your original is believed to be before having found your original ball.
If you call your original ball unplayable, you may not use the provisional,
you must go back to the original spot and play again, if that's the option
that you choose.
You could have called your original ball unplayable before hitting another
from the tee but then you wouldn't have had the option of the provisional
for this ball.
It's either or, not both.
Martin Levac
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 19:35:03
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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The replies you've gotten go to the nuts and bolts of the matter. Above
all, honesty is the key. Personally, I wouldn't do anything to arouse the
ire of the golf gods......... Given that you likely didn't know the status
of your original ball, you couldn't realistically declare it abandoned,
before hitting a second ball. But, once you holed the provisional, you are
not obligated to search for the original. You should have told your group
that you had no intention of searching for it, and request that they not
help you find it, which is within the boundaries of honesty (even if it does
seem a little cheesy). If they search anyway, take Bob's advice (although a
sand wedge would be more effective). BTW, you could have holed it out from
the bush. The odds are almost as good as holing out your provisional, no?
Case in point: In a tour event last season, the player hits a drive through
the fairway. There is no OB, but we know it's in an extremely ugly spot, IF
we can even find it. On to the provisional, which finds the fairway. We
walked up near the edge of the nasty baranca, just to verify that the
original didn't miraculously stop against a fallen branch in the rough, or
bounce off something and come back into play. No ball in sight, so we
detoured to the ball in the fairway, abandoning the original. Then a couple
of guys from the gallery jump into the bushes, trying to help us out. Uh
oh. Caddie: "Gentlemen, we do NOT wish to find that ball. Please don't go
down there. It's dangerous!" Funny looks notwithstanding, they complied.
Long putt for bogey missed, a double was carded. Odds are that's one stroke
better than whatever might have transpired if we had found the original,
and, at least we had a shot at saving bogey.
Unc
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 14:33:13
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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Bob wrote:
> "Kenn Smith" <grizzledbear@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:22231-45368A30-263@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
> >I recall a situation several years ago where someone, maybe Lefty?,
> > knocked a ball into a barranca on Torrey Pines. He made a cursory
> > search for it, not wanting to find it, headed back to a playable
> > position, asked the marshals and spectators to quit looking. They
> > didn't quit, found his ball and he was mightily upset about it, he had
> > to then play it.
> >
>
> Yep, that was Phil ...
And the reason he didn't want to find it is because his provisional was
pounded in the middle of the FW. Once the original was found, it was
unplayable, and he had to retee it to hit his 3rd, possibly hitting
into the shit once again.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 19:52:26
From: pete z
Subject: Re: "True Gravity"
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pmchugh@online.de wrote:
> Who can explain "True Gravity"?
>
> I know the top pros are well aware of what I am about to reveal in this
> page, the difference is they couldn't put it so simply. You are about
> to learn what Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom) called 'True
> Gravity' and Bobby Jones explained as 5 - 10 mph faster than the
> natural force of gravity.
>
> True gravity is, in layman's terms, the force (speed at impact),
> between two masses (club head and ball), the distance it travels (the
> swing), and most importantly what 'effects' are added (how any
> extra energy is applied to the golf club). True gravity or optimum
> gravitational force is applied when these 'effects' are added
> proficiently.
>
> If you have ever been at a professional tournament you will have
> noticed that most of the players have a silky almost laughable
> smoothness in their swings. In fact, it's only when you look at the
> resulting ball flight that you realise they do something we don't. Or
> to put it another way, we do something they don't.
>
> Thanks for listening and I look forward to any replies.
>
> Sandy MacDuff
>
> http://www.online-golf-lesson-and-more.com
Force = Speed? You must have flunked physics. The pros don't do
something different.
They have something most amateurs don't. It's called talent. Which is
why guys like Larry
Nelson can start playing after the age of 21, and still win a US Open.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 02:00:09
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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On 18 2006 14:33:13 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>And the reason he didn't want to find it is because his provisional was
>pounded in the middle of the FW. Once the original was found, it was
>unplayable, and he had to retee it to hit his 3rd, possibly hitting
>into the shit once again.
Here's a link explaining the situation:
http://www.noga.org/USGARulesCorner/2001Issue1.htm
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 15:10:24
From: Kenn Smith
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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I recall a situation several years ago where someone, maybe Lefty?,
knocked a ball into a barranca on Torrey Pines. He made a cursory
search for it, not wanting to find it, headed back to a playable
position, asked the marshals and spectators to quit looking. They
didn't quit, found his ball and he was mightily upset about it, he had
to then play it.
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 20:52:10
From: Bob
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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"Kenn Smith" <grizzledbear@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:22231-45368A30-263@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
>I recall a situation several years ago where someone, maybe Lefty?,
> knocked a ball into a barranca on Torrey Pines. He made a cursory
> search for it, not wanting to find it, headed back to a playable
> position, asked the marshals and spectators to quit looking. They
> didn't quit, found his ball and he was mightily upset about it, he had
> to then play it.
>
Yep, that was Phil ...
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 19:08:57
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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On 18 2006 09:58:28 -0700, "Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
> is hit -- and you hole it.
>
> Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
> in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
> their ball with a big red stripe.
>
> Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
> Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
> hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
> Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
> unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
yes.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 10:04:03
From:
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 18 2006 10:42:17 -0700, sugnaboris@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> A. In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as
> >> soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not
> >> already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for
> >> it.
> >
> >Jon, this isn't the applicable decision. The OP was talking about the
> >original ball being found, and whether or not there was then an
> >obligation to identify (and potentially continue) with that ball. This
> >aspect is specifically dealt with in 27-2c/2.
>
> Sure it's applicable. The whole question was based on when the
> provisional became the ball in play. One might guess it became in
> play when it went in the hole - but this decision shows that it was
> not yet in play when the original ball was found.
Howard, please read the specific question in the OP:
"Do you have an obligation to identify it..."
- then read the 2 decisions again.
27-2b/2 defines when the provisional becomes the ball in play. It's
clear that the OP is well aware that the ball in the hole is not yet
the ball in play, from the statement, "Under the rules, there goes your
par", hence 27-2b/2 is not applicable to the question being asked.
27-2c/2, OTOH, could have been written based upon the very event
described: it couldn't be more applicable to the question of the
player's specific obligation to identify the ball in this case.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 15:36:35
From: David
Subject: Re: provisional balls
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On 18 2006 09:58:28 -0700, "Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Your first ball on a par 3 looks like it might be OB, so a provisional
>is hit -- and you hole it.
>
>Suppose on the way to the green you notice your first ball, in bounds,
>in a bush -- unplayable. You know it's yours because no one else marks
>their ball with a big red stripe.
>
>Under the rules, there goes your par.
>
>Suppose, however, you don't see the ball, but before you get to the
>hole a fellow competitor does see it and calls it to your attention.
>Now what? Do you have an obligation to identify it, then take your
>unplayable lie, hit it to the green, and two putt for your double?
This has already been discussed in a previous thread.
David
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