gimmes -- opinions

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Date: 25 Aug 2006 17:36:52
From: WhiteOut
Subject: gimmes -- opinions

when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every shot
until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i read
harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.

i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't want
to offend my playing opponents...

(and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone has
given me one then i feel compelled to give back)

so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it? i
feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of completion...

thoughts?

Date: 26 Aug 2006 00:34:02
From: gary hayenga
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 2006-08-25 13:36:52 -0400, "WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com > said:

> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every
> shot until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i
> read harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't
> want to offend my playing opponents...
>
> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone
> has given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about
> it? i feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of
> completion...
>
> thoughts?

a) Don't play match play. (Except Match Play Madness (tm) where there
is no score)

b) Since you're not playing match play anyone who says "That's good" is
an idiot and you can ignore them and putt out anyway.

c) When during stroke play some idiot not only says "That's good" but
knocks the ball back to you without asking permission. Replace your
ball and putt out. When said idiot asks why explain very simply that
you're not playing against him and you like to hit the ball in hole.

gary hayenga

Date: 26 Aug 2006 15:40:50
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"gary hayenga" <vandg@speakeasy.org > wrote in message
> >...............................................

> a) Don't play match play.

Um, last time I checked, it's still mentioned in the ROG.

> b) Since you're not playing match play anyone who says "That's good" is an
> idiot and you can ignore them and putt out anyway.

Yes you may. Apparently, you don't ever play for money. I
sure know a lot of tour pros and good/great players who are idiots.

> c) When during stroke play some idiot not only says "That's good" but
> knocks the ball back to you without asking permission. Replace your ball
> and putt out. When said idiot asks why explain very simply that you're
> not playing against him and you like to hit the ball in hole.

Ya know Gar, that might have some merit, if said "idiot" were truly an
idiot, even by slightly more lenient standards. Are you playing with total
strangers, or just people you don't like playing with? You're within your
rights to hole out (unless special rules say otherwise), but that
purist/elitist crap might tend to make partners lose your phone number.

Except for tournaments, we play match play about 80% of the time, but we
have a little unsanctioned, medal, money game on Wednesday nights. However,
if two dozen guys show up, the money isn't that little. Net score, KPs and
putts pay. Players range from 0 to rarely higher than 16 hdcp. It's stroke
play, by the ROG. But, in the interest of moving along, as better players
do, we all regularly kick out a 1' or less gimme, and ALWAYS do, when said
gimme no longer means anything to the competition, or when a player is DQed.
Nobody gives anything that means a rip, and, we finish before dark. Who
gives a shit?

Trust me, there are many golfers who would be much happier people (so would
the poor bastards behind them) if they'd pick it up themselves, instead of
waiting for somebody to tell them "That's enough."

Unc

Date: 26 Aug 2006 15:20:37
From: gary hayenga
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 2006-08-26 11:40:50 -0400, "uncle k" <no_spam@all.com > said:

>
> "gary hayenga" <vandg@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
>>> ...............................................
>
>> a) Don't play match play.
>
> Um, last time I checked, it's still mentioned in the ROG.

Non-sequiter. Why wouldn't match play be mentioned in the rules of golf?

>
>> b) Since you're not playing match play anyone who says "That's good" is an
>> idiot and you can ignore them and putt out anyway.
>
> Yes you may. Apparently, you don't ever play for money. I
> sure know a lot of tour pros and good/great players who are idiots.

I don't play for money, I'm not that good.

You know tour pros who tell you to pick your ball up in stroke play?

>
>> c) When during stroke play some idiot not only says "That's good" but
>> knocks the ball back to you without asking permission. Replace your ball
>> and putt out. When said idiot asks why explain very simply that you're
>> not playing against him and you like to hit the ball in hole.
>
> Ya know Gar, that might have some merit, if said "idiot" were truly an
> idiot, even by slightly more lenient standards. Are you playing with total
> strangers, or just people you don't like playing with? You're within your
> rights to hole out (unless special rules say otherwise), but that
> purist/elitist crap might tend to make partners lose your phone number.

I like to hit the ball in the hole. How is that purist or elitest?

>
> Except for tournaments, we play match play about 80% of the time, but we
> have a little unsanctioned, medal, money game on Wednesday nights. However,
> if two dozen guys show up, the money isn't that little. Net score, KPs and
> putts pay. Players range from 0 to rarely higher than 16 hdcp. It's stroke
> play, by the ROG. But, in the interest of moving along, as better players
> do, we all regularly kick out a 1' or less gimme, and ALWAYS do, when said
> gimme no longer means anything to the competition, or when a player is DQed.
> Nobody gives anything that means a rip, and, we finish before dark. Who
> gives a shit?
>
> Trust me, there are many golfers who would be much happier people (so would
> the poor bastards behind them) if they'd pick it up themselves, instead of
> waiting for somebody to tell them "That's enough."
>
> Unc

Hey, I don't care what you do with *your* ball, assuming it's not a
stroke play tournament. I'm not playing against you.

If I'm keeping score, my ball is going in the hole. And if I'm not
keeping score, I prefer to practice making the ball go in the hole.

gary hayenga

Date: 26 Aug 2006 22:31:39
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:20:37 -0400, gary hayenga <vandg@speakeasy.org >
wrote:

>I like to hit the ball in the hole. How is that purist or elitest?

I tend to tell my opponents that I am poor enough that I need the
practice of always hitting it in in real golf situations - especially
when there is something on the line.

And that I love the sound of the ball rolling in the cup.

Date: 26 Aug 2006 00:13:47
From: Tranny
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 25 Aug 2006 14:24:45
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 25 Aug 2006 20:02:55
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 25 Aug 2006 13:02:44
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

> When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
> part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
> don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather is
> not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of the
> ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
> these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making thast
> choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
> ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!

I prefer to play them as they lie and putt out pretty much everything.
But I'm not anal about it. I'll play by the rules of the group as
necessary.

Date: 26 Aug 2006 13:07:34
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1156536164.810033.311620@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
>> part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
>> don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather is
>> not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of the
>> ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
>> these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making thast
>> choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
>> ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!
>
> I prefer to play them as they lie and putt out pretty much everything.
> But I'm not anal about it. I'll play by the rules of the group as
> necessary.

In match play, conceding putts are part of the rules. If an opponent
concedes a putt, you have no other choice but to accept the concession.

Randy

Date: 25 Aug 2006 12:58:24
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

WhiteOut wrote:
> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every shot
> until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i read
> harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't want
> to offend my playing opponents...
>
> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone has
> given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it? i
> feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of completion...

If I play a match with one person, we will set the rules in advance and
play to them, without too much thought for what anyone else might
think, including the USGA. We are there for our own benefit, not that
of anyone else. If gimmies are a condition insisted on by my opponent,
I have two options, gimmies or no match.

When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather is
not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of the
ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making thast
choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!

Date: 27 Aug 2006 12:48:57
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 25 Aug 2006 12:58:24 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:

<snipped >

>When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
>part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
>don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather is
>not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of the
>ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
>these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making thast
>choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
>ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!

Why are people so quick to make black and white decisions on things
like this? If you are playing under match play rules, it is common to
have a putt conceded to you. Hell, I have had putts over thirty feet
conceded to me when a three-putt would still give me the hole.

If I am playing in a stroke play tournament, obviously I cannot ever
have a putt conceded to me. If I am playing with my buddies, it is
very rare that we are playing stroke play for money, or pizza and
beer--99% of the time, it is match play.

Sometimes, however, we will play a nassau. If we are playing on
greens that have been aerated, or temporary winter greens, it would
not be uncommon to cede a putt of reasonable length--around three
feet. You can make the best stroke possible and the ball may not go
in. Why penalize yourself for that? If it is a tournament, you have
no chance. If it is a nassau among friends then no one else needs to
care.

David

Date: 27 Aug 2006 17:27:45
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

David wrote:

snippit

I don't see how you are peanlizing yourself when you putt out on aerated
greens. They are the same greens for everyone. In fact, IMHO, it probably
makes putting more important. I know guyas who won't play washed out bunkers
as GIR. They are on the course; deal with it...it's the same course for
everyone!

I don't like the roll the ball thing because it takes away my game. I am not
a long hitter, but I can keep the ball in play. I also hit the ball OK from
the rough. Longer hitters want to blast away, and if nothing else, set up
optimal lies in the rough. I figure I should have an advantage if I am in
the fairway vs my opponent in the rough and my opponent has the advantage of
being closer to the green. Why sell out my advantage of being in the
fairway? It gets worse with the guys who want to roll the ball a clublength.
I have literally seen a guy take a ball that was OB, but less than a
clublength OBV, and place the ball a clublength away from the OB line on the
roll the ball a clublength deal, with no penalty.

The reason people do this, IMHO, and is the same reason you see no one on
one play, be it match or medal, is that people don't want to expose their
ability. They want to buffer it as a member of a team. All that matters is
birdie/par; everything else is scored as a bogie. If they had to play one on
one, all the strokes could count, and they don't want that. I see many many
golfers who won't count rounds where the scores are "too high" so they can
"protect their handicap". They don't care about competition, all they care
about is how low their handicap is! Of course no one else cares! Eleanor
Rigby golf, IMHO!

I like to compete, as there is little more rewarding than playing well and
beating someone. I personally don't care if I lose; I want the opportunity
to win. I keep my handicap as reference, but it doesn't mean anything. No
one around here uses it for anything anyways. One side bit of satisfaction
comes when someone claiming to be a 2 handicapper won't give me 8 strokes!
The low capper always has an edge because of variance in scores, so I know
when I get this that the person is a phoney...and it comes in handy
sometimes!

Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:16:59
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:27:45 GMT, Robert Hamilton <DBID@att.net >
wrote:

>They don't care about competition, all they care
>about is how low their handicap is! Of course no one else cares! Eleanor
>Rigby golf, IMHO!
>
>I like to compete, as there is little more rewarding than playing well and
>beating someone. I personally don't care if I lose; I want the opportunity
>to win. I keep my handicap as reference, but it doesn't mean anything. No
>one around here uses it for anything anyways. One side bit of satisfaction
>comes when someone claiming to be a 2 handicapper won't give me 8 strokes!
>The low capper always has an edge because of variance in scores, so I know
>when I get this that the person is a phoney...and it comes in handy
>sometimes!

Beating someone or losing to someone dependent on how accurate their
handicaps isn't competing at golf. It's competing at sandbagging and
vanity handicaps. Be satisfied with what you actually see, and
compete against what you actually see, even if the bet is against
something else.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 00:11:19
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Howard Brazee wrote:

>
> Beating someone or losing to someone dependent on how accurate their
> handicaps isn't competing at golf. It's competing at sandbagging and
> vanity handicaps. Be satisfied with what you actually see, and
> compete against what you actually see, even if the bet is against
> something else.

If you are going to play someone better than you, you need strokes. If you are
going to play someone worse than you, you need to give strokes. Reticence on
this issue is absolutely definative of a vanity handicap. In my experince, the
overhelming majority of golfers keep honest handicaps, maybe a tad vain...they
don't play in many tournaments though, which is why most tournaments have a lot
of trouble getting people to play. I have no problem finding good games almost
any time I'm in the mood. Never have.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 15:10:56
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:27:45 GMT, Robert Hamilton <DBID@att.net >
wrote:

>
>
>David wrote:
>
>snippit
>
>I don't see how you are peanlizing yourself when you putt out on aerated
>greens. They are the same greens for everyone. In fact, IMHO, it probably
>makes putting more important. I know guyas who won't play washed out bunkers
>as GIR. They are on the course; deal with it...it's the same course for
>everyone!

Well, since you cannot actually "read" the putt, since those little
holes all over the green tend to knock it off course, it seems to me
that having one of these holes knock your two-footer off line. I
don't see how this makes putting more important.

I am not really sure what you are trying to say about the bunkers
and I won't hazard a guess there :-) The point is, there are
extenuating circumstances sometimes. The pros get to play
lift/clean/place when the fairway are soggy--we are supposed to play
the ball as it lies. Some pros get to have a dozen people help them
move boulders, or get free drops from clubhouse rooftops. I think
that if I, and my buddies, decide to concede putts that are 2ft in
length, or shorter, on freshly aerated greens, there is nothing wrong
with it. We are simply adjusting to a golf course being played under
less than normal conditions.

David

Date: 25 Aug 2006 14:44:43
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com > wrote in message
news:UyGHg.17524$gY6.13010@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every
> shot until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i
> read harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't
> want to offend my playing opponents...
>
> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone
> has given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it?
> i feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of
> completion...
>
> thoughts?

There's no such thing as a gimme in stroke play.

But in match play, conceding putts is part of the game. Go ahead and take
those when they're offered. But make your opponent putt all of his.

Randy

Date: 25 Aug 2006 12:53:09
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:36:52 GMT, "WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com > wrote:

>when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every shot
>until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i read
>harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
>i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't want
>to offend my playing opponents...
>
>(and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
>care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone has
>given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
>so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it? i
>feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of completion...
>
>thoughts?
>
You should make it clear to your playing opponents that you don't
take, nor give, them. Period.

Date: 25 Aug 2006 17:42:20
From: Howard U. Dewing
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 26 Aug 2006 14:07:18
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:42:20 GMT, "Howard U. Dewing"
<sample@sample.net > wrote:

>In formal match play, it's poor form to putt out after a putt's been
>conceded. In formal stroke play, hole everything. In recreational play,
>it seems kind of annoying for guys to take the time to putt even a foot
>or two after everyone else in the group says "that's good".

When someone concedes a putt so that your Ryder Cup partner does not
get to go to school on your putt, do you pick up your ball?

Date: 26 Aug 2006 12:21:02
From: Otto
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

No.

You putt and let your partner go to school.

Otto

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:7al0f21fj7l621c0rklqa4gvt8f8rvkhup@4ax.com...

> When someone concedes a putt so that your Ryder Cup partner does not
> get to go to school on your putt, do you pick up your ball?

Date: 26 Aug 2006 11:27:06
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:21:02 -0400, "Otto"
<ottondebREMove#$@^%!@*&@bellsouth.net > wrote:

>No.
>
>You putt and let your partner go to school.
>
>Otto
>
>
>"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>news:7al0f21fj7l621c0rklqa4gvt8f8rvkhup@4ax.com...
>
>> When someone concedes a putt so that your Ryder Cup partner does not
>> get to go to school on your putt, do you pick up your ball?
>
Wrong.
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 09:12:50
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:07:18 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:42:20 GMT, "Howard U. Dewing"
><sample@sample.net> wrote:
>
>>In formal match play, it's poor form to putt out after a putt's been
>>conceded. In formal stroke play, hole everything. In recreational play,
>>it seems kind of annoying for guys to take the time to putt even a foot
>>or two after everyone else in the group says "that's good".
>
>When someone concedes a putt so that your Ryder Cup partner does not
>get to go to school on your putt, do you pick up your ball?

2-4/6 Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out
after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty
for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of
assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner
is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40
From: cja
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"R&B" wrote:

> There's no such thing as a gimme in stroke play.
>
It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
group, I'm going to putt out.

> But in match play, conceding putts is part of the game. Go ahead and take
> those when they're offered. But make your opponent putt all of his.
>
Not just "go ahead and take those", there's no choice. As it says in
Rule 2-4: "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn." As I'm sure
you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy. I try
not to be too predictable, too generous, or too stingy in conceding
putts. It's good to make your opponent think.

- cja

Date: 26 Aug 2006 13:04:30
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Correct on all points.

This addition to your statements about the appropriateness of people
conceding short putts in stroke play. Personally, whenever I play with
folks who just slap my ball back at me after I've hit it up to within
kick-in range, I consider it rude. I paid my money, and I intend to play my
round -- ALL of it. Now, that said, there are times when I'm having a bad
day, and specifically, having a bad hole where I've visited all the dark
places in the periphery of the hole, and by the time I finally get the ball
up there to within kick-in range, if someone kicks it back to me and says,
"that's good," I'm fine with it. I've already had enough fun on that hole,
thankyouverymuch.

Randy

"cja" <cja@excite.com > wrote in message
news:1156609120.293905.73660@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> "R&B" wrote:
>
>> There's no such thing as a gimme in stroke play.
>>
> It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
> think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
> if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
> usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
> keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
> 1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
> group, I'm going to putt out.
>
>> But in match play, conceding putts is part of the game. Go ahead and
>> take
>> those when they're offered. But make your opponent putt all of his.
>>
> Not just "go ahead and take those", there's no choice. As it says in
> Rule 2-4: "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn." As I'm sure
> you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
> making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy. I try
> not to be too predictable, too generous, or too stingy in conceding
> putts. It's good to make your opponent think.
>
> - cja
>

Date: 26 Aug 2006 11:21:38
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com > wrote:

>"R&B" wrote:
>
>> There's no such thing as a gimme in stroke play.
>>
>It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
>think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
>if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
>usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
>keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
>1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
>group, I'm going to putt out.
>
>> But in match play, conceding putts is part of the game. Go ahead and take
>> those when they're offered. But make your opponent putt all of his.
>>
>Not just "go ahead and take those", there's no choice. As it says in
>Rule 2-4: "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn." As I'm sure
>you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
>making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy. I try
>not to be too predictable, too generous, or too stingy in conceding
>putts. It's good to make your opponent think.
>
> - cja
Ah, but you can still putt out even when your putt is
conceded...unless it assists a partner in team play.
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 13:06:34
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:d7t0f2t2etusrlif03aels3mcknhqj714l@4ax.com...
> On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>"R&B" wrote:
>>
>>> There's no such thing as a gimme in stroke play.
>>>
>>It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
>>think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
>>if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
>>usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
>>keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
>>1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
>>group, I'm going to putt out.
>>
>>> But in match play, conceding putts is part of the game. Go ahead and
>>> take
>>> those when they're offered. But make your opponent putt all of his.
>>>
>>Not just "go ahead and take those", there's no choice. As it says in
>>Rule 2-4: "A concession may not be declined or withdrawn." As I'm sure
>>you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
>>making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy. I try
>>not to be too predictable, too generous, or too stingy in conceding
>>putts. It's good to make your opponent think.
>>
>> - cja
> Ah, but you can still putt out even when your putt is
> conceded...unless it assists a partner in team play.

Yes, you can. But if it's been conceded and you then miss it...it's still
good.

cja is right in saying there's a good strategy involved in conceding early
putts and then forcing a player to putt out on a critical hole later in the
match. Personally, I like Tiger's strategy. In most matches I've seen him
play in recent years, he doesn't concede much of anything, unless it's an
absolute gimme in every sense of the word. You never know when someone
might miss one they shouldn't, especially when you're talking about players
at our skill level.

Randy

Date: 26 Aug 2006 12:10:49
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:06:34 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:d7t0f2t2etusrlif03aels3mcknhqj714l@4ax.com...
>> On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com> wrote:

>> Ah, but you can still putt out even when your putt is
>> conceded...unless it assists a partner in team play.
>
>
>Yes, you can. But if it's been conceded and you then miss it...it's still
>good.
>
Right.
>cja is right in saying there's a good strategy involved in conceding early
>putts and then forcing a player to putt out on a critical hole later in the
>match. Personally, I like Tiger's strategy. In most matches I've seen him
>play in recent years, he doesn't concede much of anything, unless it's an
>absolute gimme in every sense of the word. You never know when someone
>might miss one they shouldn't, especially when you're talking about players
>at our skill level.
>
>Randy
>
That's a good reason to go ahead and putt a conceded stroke when you
can.
___,
\o

Date: 27 Aug 2006 12:41:56
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:10:49 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:06:34 -0400, "\"R&B\""
><noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>news:d7t0f2t2etusrlif03aels3mcknhqj714l@4ax.com...
>>> On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>> Ah, but you can still putt out even when your putt is
>>> conceded...unless it assists a partner in team play.
>>
>>
>>Yes, you can. But if it's been conceded and you then miss it...it's still
>>good.
>>
>Right.
>>cja is right in saying there's a good strategy involved in conceding early
>>putts and then forcing a player to putt out on a critical hole later in the
>>match. Personally, I like Tiger's strategy. In most matches I've seen him
>>play in recent years, he doesn't concede much of anything, unless it's an
>>absolute gimme in every sense of the word. You never know when someone
>>might miss one they shouldn't, especially when you're talking about players
>>at our skill level.
>>
>>Randy
>>
>That's a good reason to go ahead and putt a conceded stroke when you
>can.

If your putt is conceded to you in match play, you should pick up
your ball, if your opponent still has to putt. If you want to
practice the putt after that, then by all means. Putting out anyway,
with your opponent still to play would be, in my book, bad form.

David

Date: 27 Aug 2006 06:37:21
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:41:56 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:10:49 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>wrote:

>>>cja is right in saying there's a good strategy involved in conceding early
>>>putts and then forcing a player to putt out on a critical hole later in the
>>>match. Personally, I like Tiger's strategy. In most matches I've seen him
>>>play in recent years, he doesn't concede much of anything, unless it's an
>>>absolute gimme in every sense of the word. You never know when someone
>>>might miss one they shouldn't, especially when you're talking about players
>>>at our skill level.
>>>
>>>Randy
>>>
>>That's a good reason to go ahead and putt a conceded stroke when you
>>can.
>
> If your putt is conceded to you in match play, you should pick up
>your ball, if your opponent still has to putt. If you want to
>practice the putt after that, then by all means. Putting out anyway,
>with your opponent still to play would be, in my book, bad form.
>
>David

Agreed...
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 22:28:01
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com > wrote:

>It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
>think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
>if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
>usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
>keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
>1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
>group, I'm going to putt out.

Agreed. If the shot slows down the game, then obviously it isn't a
"gimme".

Date: 26 Aug 2006 10:57:37
From:
Subject: Re: gimmies -- opinions

you are right on track, play the game as you see fit.

gimmies are more or less used as a convenience, and to speed up the
game,

an arrangement should be made before starting play - for the gimmie
matter, majority ruling.

I hate for anyone to jack with my ball, I like to play it out. there's
just something about it I don't like.

>mho
>v fe

>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"d R i V e =A0L e $ s"

Date: 26 Aug 2006 12:30:37
From: Otto
Subject: Re: gimmies -- opinions

Stroke play--hole out.

Match play--hole out if the stroke matters.

Otto

Date: 26 Aug 2006 19:06:44
From:
Subject: Re: gimmies -- opinions

Gimmies - distance beyond 26" should not be considered, under the
original ruling, but there are cases where gimmies are

given / accepted that fall in the 26" range that could border on being a
"bonus". (not ALL 26" putts - are made)

I think gimmies should be ruled unconstitutional":--)

ps - they might be alright for - old farts.

http://golf.about.com/cs/golfterms/g/bldef_gimmie.htm

>m h o
>=A0v =83 e

>d r i v i n g =A0l e s s =A0l o w e r s =A0g a s =A0p r i c e s =A0

Date: 26 Aug 2006 10:24:06
From: nativetexan_1
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

No "gimmes" in stroke play. I (and surely everyone here) has seen the six
inch putt lip the cup. Everything is missable. Besides, I thought we came
to play, not pick up the ball. I want to play it out.

"WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com > wrote in message
news:UyGHg.17524$gY6.13010@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every
> shot until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i
> read harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't
> want to offend my playing opponents...
>
> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone
> has given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it?
> i feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of
> completion...
>
> thoughts?
>

Date: 25 Aug 2006 23:17:56
From: johnty
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Howard U. Dewing wrote:

>
> In formal match play, it's poor form to putt out after a putt's been
> conceded.

Is it?

Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:16:32
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

nativetexan_1 wrote:
> No "gimmes" in stroke play. I (and surely everyone here) has seen the six
> inch putt lip the cup. Everything is missable. Besides, I thought we came
> to play, not pick up the ball. I want to play it out.

If that six incher is the result of a good chip from offf the green,
you may kick it back to me just so I don't have to walk up and hit a
putt that I won't miss more than 1 in 1000 tries (unless of course it
is an event where you must putt everything out. If the six incher is a
followup putt and I'm already near the hole with putter in hand, I
don't mind at all to tap it in adn it probalby won't waste any time
doing so. I'm usually pretty solid out to about 2 feet so I don't mind
taking a few of these especially if we need to save time. I don't
generally consider 2 to 4 foot putts a sure thing and generally prefer
to putt them out unless we are pressing for time.

Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:07:14
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

> > You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)
>
>
> I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played match
> play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.
>
> Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
> worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
> to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
> recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
> am.

A buddy and I have been playing some informal match play within normal
stroke play. Since the stroke play is of no significance other than
handicap, a gimme or two isn't going to hurt anything. About the only
time I play official match play is if I play in the club match
championship which occurs once per year. I played in it this year for
the first time since about 2001.

Date: 27 Aug 2006 12:52:37
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 26 Aug 2006 18:07:14 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:

>
>> > You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)
>>
>>
>> I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played match
>> play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.
>>
>> Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
>> worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
>> to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
>> recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
>> am.
>
>A buddy and I have been playing some informal match play within normal
>stroke play. Since the stroke play is of no significance other than
>handicap, a gimme or two isn't going to hurt anything. About the only
>time I play official match play is if I play in the club match
>championship which occurs once per year. I played in it this year for
>the first time since about 2001.

Well, I live in Germany (I am american). Here, you find virtually
only match play, since rounds not played in tournaments are not
counted toward a handicap. That may be why more people are playing
stroke play in friendly competitions in the US.

David

Date: 27 Aug 2006 13:32:38
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:52:37 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> Well, I live in Germany (I am american). Here, you find virtually
>only match play, since rounds not played in tournaments are not
>counted toward a handicap. That may be why more people are playing
>stroke play in friendly competitions in the US.

I suspect a larger difference may be in how USAmericans use TV as a
role model.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 15:16:45
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:32:38 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:52:37 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>> Well, I live in Germany (I am american). Here, you find virtually
>>only match play, since rounds not played in tournaments are not
>>counted toward a handicap. That may be why more people are playing
>>stroke play in friendly competitions in the US.
>
>I suspect a larger difference may be in how USAmericans use TV as a
>role model.

I don't really agree with this. I think that it is really because
all scores posted count toward an HI. Europeans play a lot more
tournament golf than the average american does. When I am in the
states, I play perhaps 2 tournaments per year. In Germany, I play at
least 2 per month (well, I am currently not able to play any golf).

I don't remember which famous golfer said this, but he was of the
opinion that amateur golfers should play match play and not stroke
play. If americans did not get the opportunity to turn in every score
(and get the "right" HI for the upcoming tournaments) for HI, then
stroke play, on a purely recreational level, would be much less
interesting for them. When I play in the states, it is always some
form of match play within the group--straight up match play, skins
game, etc....

David

Date: 26 Aug 2006 17:06:29
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

cja wrote:
> As I'm sure
> you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
> making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy.

An old saw that's never been proven. I'd prefer to let them miss a few
early.
Besides, how can conceding a putt ever be beneficial when the penalty
for missing is loss of hole? Just say, "I saw Lanny Wadkins and Hale
Irwin whiff putts before, and you ain't no Lanny or Hale. So knock it
in."

Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:47:33
From: Henry
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:49:40
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0500, Henry <HenryNot@home.com > wrote:

<clip >
>I never met a Gimmee I didn't like ;-)
>
>Henry

Quoting a long-time RSGer's (Bill-O) sig:
"A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between two golfers,
neither of whom can putt very well".
___,
\o

Date: 27 Aug 2006 09:04:43
From: Henry
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0500, Henry <HenryNot@home.com> wrote:
>
> <clip>
>> I never met a Gimmee I didn't like ;-)
>>
>> Henry
>
> Quoting a long-time RSGer's (Bill-O) sig:
> "A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between two golfers,
> neither of whom can putt very well".
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 26 Aug 2006 16:39:47
From: cja
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"R&B" wrote:

> Now, that said, there are times when I'm having a bad
> day, and specifically, having a bad hole where I've visited all the dark
> places in the periphery of the hole, and by the time I finally get the ball
> up there to within kick-in range, if someone kicks it back to me and says,
> "that's good," I'm fine with it. I've already had enough fun on that hole,
> thankyouverymuch.
>
This is especially true if you've reached your ESC limit. It's better
to just end the misery, and move on from what must have been a slow,
painful, hole.

- cja

Date: 26 Aug 2006 16:14:31
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 26 Aug 2006 09:18:40 -0700, "cja" <cja@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >It bugs me when people say "that's good" in stroke play. Maybe people
> >think they're doing you a favor, or being courteous, but to me it's as
> >if they're saying "that's enough, stop playing this hole now". It
> >usually seems to be done in the interest of pace of play. I'm all for
> >keeping moving, but how much longer would it take me to tap in the
> >1-footer and pick it out of the hole? If it doesn't slow down the
> >group, I'm going to putt out.
>
> Agreed. If the shot slows down the game, then obviously it isn't a
> "gimme".

Like I said, if it involves stepping in someone's line, which means
marking it or moving a mark, then I'll just pick it up, but only if
it's an obvious gimme.

Date: 26 Aug 2006 21:26:16
From:
Subject: Re: gimmies -- opinions

>Like I said,
>if it involves stepping in someone's line,
>which means marking it or moving a >mark,
>then I'll just pick it up,
>but only if it's an obvious gimme.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
the above could be an impromptu accord, but how many times does this
situation happen? and usually it's beyond the gimmie limit.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
and another sore spot, when a guy deliberately moves your ball around
when it could,

could not be in his line of putting, depending on his level of play - is
uncalled for.

he should ask YOU to pick up, instead of taking the attitude that you
were somewhat remiss in the matter.

make golf courtesy one of your strong points.

>m h o
>=A0v =83 e

>d r i v i n g =A0l e s s =A0l o w e r s =A0g a s =A0p r i c e s =A0

Date: 26 Aug 2006 11:44:12
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"R&B" wrote:
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
> news:1156536164.810033.311620@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
> >> part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
> >> don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather is
> >> not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of the
> >> ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
> >> these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making thast
> >> choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
> >> ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!
> >
> > I prefer to play them as they lie and putt out pretty much everything.
> > But I'm not anal about it. I'll play by the rules of the group as
> > necessary.
>
>
> In match play, conceding putts are part of the rules. If an opponent
> concedes a putt, you have no other choice but to accept the concession.

You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)
>
> Randy

Date: 26 Aug 2006 20:13:13
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1156617852.408978.123380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> "R&B" wrote:
>> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
>> news:1156536164.810033.311620@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >> When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
>> >> part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
>> >> don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather
>> >> is
>> >> not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of
>> >> the
>> >> ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
>> >> these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making
>> >> thast
>> >> choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
>> >> ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!
>> >
>> > I prefer to play them as they lie and putt out pretty much everything.
>> > But I'm not anal about it. I'll play by the rules of the group as
>> > necessary.
>>
>>
>> In match play, conceding putts are part of the rules. If an opponent
>> concedes a putt, you have no other choice but to accept the concession.
>
> You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)

I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played match
play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.

Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
am.

Randy

Date: 26 Aug 2006 20:17:59
From: sfb
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Nassaus are match play.

""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message
news:hLydneJMApQSfm3ZnZ2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played
> match play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.
>
> Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
> worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
> to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
> recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
> am.
>
> Randy
>

Date: 26 Aug 2006 19:37:09
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:17:59 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:

>Nassaus are match play.
>
Yes, but you can play stroke play with the Nassau format too. Front,
back and 18 bets.
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 20:56:10
From: sfb
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Yet another cut job so you can make a wise ass comment. Randy questioned
the statement that there is a lot of match play in the US. There is if you
consider Nassau as match.

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:k2q1f2d2doil3e0ciq20o7q8707rsu1g8u@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:17:59 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>Nassaus are match play.
>>
> Yes, but you can play stroke play with the Nassau format too. Front,
> back and 18 bets.
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 26 Aug 2006 20:01:06
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:56:10 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:

>Yet another cut job so you can make a wise ass comment. Randy questioned
>the statement that there is a lot of match play in the US. There is if you
>consider Nassau as match.
>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:k2q1f2d2doil3e0ciq20o7q8707rsu1g8u@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:17:59 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Nassaus are match play.
>>>
>> Yes, but you can play stroke play with the Nassau format too. Front,
>> back and 18 bets.

>> bk

There was nothing in my post intended to be a wise ass comment, just a
fact. I find it unreasonable that you think it a "cut job", but then
I guess you have standards that are unreasonable.

As far as wise ass comments go, here's one; go fuck yourself!!!
___,
\o

Date: 26 Aug 2006 23:28:15
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:ghr1f21othu7rro7fkmmlalssgntf0hjr5@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:56:10 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>Yet another cut job so you can make a wise ass comment. Randy questioned
>>the statement that there is a lot of match play in the US. There is if you
>>consider Nassau as match.
>>
>>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>news:k2q1f2d2doil3e0ciq20o7q8707rsu1g8u@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:17:59 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Nassaus are match play.
>>>>
>>> Yes, but you can play stroke play with the Nassau format too. Front,
>>> back and 18 bets.
>
>>> bk
>
>
> There was nothing in my post intended to be a wise ass comment, just a
> fact. I find it unreasonable that you think it a "cut job", but then
> I guess you have standards that are unreasonable.
>
> As far as wise ass comments go, here's one; go fuck yourself!!!
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 27 Aug 2006 12:50:28
From: David
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:56:10 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:

>Yet another cut job so you can make a wise ass comment. Randy questioned
>the statement that there is a lot of match play in the US. There is if you
>consider Nassau as match.

I have never considered nassau to be a match play event. You play
for some set of amount of money based on stroke play. Match play and
playing a match are two different cans of beans.

David

Date: 27 Aug 2006 13:30:49
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:50:28 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> I have never considered nassau to be a match play event. You play
>for some set of amount of money based on stroke play. Match play and
>playing a match are two different cans of beans.

I suppose the big difference is whether your strategy is to win this
hole or whether your strategy is to minimize your total score.

I think most people will play for the current prize.

Date: 27 Aug 2006 06:39:44
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:50:28 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:56:10 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>Yet another cut job so you can make a wise ass comment. Randy questioned
>>the statement that there is a lot of match play in the US. There is if you
>>consider Nassau as match.
>
> I have never considered nassau to be a match play event. You play
>for some set of amount of money based on stroke play. Match play and
>playing a match are two different cans of beans.
>
>David

I repeat. Yes, but you can play stroke play with the Nassau format
too. Front, back and 18 bets.

Nassau format is not a true Nassau.
___,
\o

Date: 02 Sep 2006 08:35:07
From: Henry
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

"R&B" wrote:
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
> news:1156617852.408978.123380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> "R&B" wrote:
>>> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
>>> news:1156536164.810033.311620@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> When I play in groups, I am stuck with the group norms. If gimmies are
>>>>> part of the group norm, I can play gimmies or not join the group. I
>>>>> don't mind reasonable gimmies, like say a set 2 feet (in the leather
>>>>> is
>>>>> not acceptable to me). I personally will not go for any rolling of
>>>>> the
>>>>> ball. As such, I don't play in many groups, but seeing the decline in
>>>>> these groups down to nearly nothing, I am not the only one making
>>>>> thast
>>>>> choice! I will not play a match if my opponent insists on rolling the
>>>>> ball. Play it as it lies or I don't play!
>>>> I prefer to play them as they lie and putt out pretty much everything.
>>>> But I'm not anal about it. I'll play by the rules of the group as
>>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> In match play, conceding putts are part of the rules. If an opponent
>>> concedes a putt, you have no other choice but to accept the concession.
>> You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)
>
>
> I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played match
> play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.
>
> Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
> worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
> to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
> recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
> am.
>
> Randy
>
>
All I ever saw playing as a kid with my Dad was match play with
"freshes", and "presses" and dorme's. You could beat somebody all day
and then they'd "press" on 18 tee and the payoff depended on 1 hole. I
always knew when to quit hacking and go to the next hole.

Henry

Date: 27 Aug 2006 06:44:22
From: cja
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

annika1980 wrote:
> cja wrote:
> > As I'm sure
> > you know, Randy, conceding 2- or 3-footers early in the round, then
> > making your opponent putt them later, can be a good strategy.
>
> An old saw that's never been proven. I'd prefer to let them miss a few
> early.
> Besides, how can conceding a putt ever be beneficial when the penalty
> for missing is loss of hole? Just say, "I saw Lanny Wadkins and Hale
> Irwin whiff putts before, and you ain't no Lanny or Hale. So knock it
> in."
>
True, keeping pressure on and making the guy play is usually a good
strategy. I guess it depends on the opponent, and what mental game
works best against him. Making a guy putt out every little thing may
make him mad, and more determined to beat you. Conceding some putts may
make him complacent, and unable to handle the pressure of a meaningful
putt late in the round. Sometimes I'll "aplogize" for not conceding,
saying something like, "This one looks like it's in gimme range, but I
think it's kind of tricky. I want to see you make it.".

Date: 27 Aug 2006 08:45:36
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Date: 27 Aug 2006 08:37:32
From: Tom K
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

If you are a member at a private course where no one's behind you, take all
the time you want.

Or if you can just tap in gimmies without spending large amounts of time
setting up, etc. That will work.

But... If you're on a public course in a place like New Jersey, and you're
taking your time lining up short putts, and putting everything out, and
you've got 2 holes open in front of you after 5 holes, and you're backing up
the whole course... it AIN'T gonna work. With cell phones, people will be
calling the Ranger on you. That's assuming they don't start yelling at you
themselves.

Quite simply... a six and a half hour round behind a group that putts
everything out just isn't any fun. Not if they've fallen 6 holes behind by
the end of the round.

If you're going to do it, make sure the rest of your game (and everyone
else's in your group) can save the necessary time to allow you to do that if
you're on a crowded course.

--Tom

"WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com > wrote in message
news:UyGHg.17524$gY6.13010@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every
> shot until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i
> read harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>
> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't
> want to offend my playing opponents...
>
> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone
> has given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>
> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it?
> i feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of
> completion...
>
> thoughts?
>

Date: 27 Aug 2006 09:45:31
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Tom K wrote:
> If you are a member at a private course where no one's behind you, take all
> the time you want.
>
> Or if you can just tap in gimmies without spending large amounts of time
> setting up, etc. That will work.
>
> But... If you're on a public course in a place like New Jersey, and you're
> taking your time lining up short putts, and putting everything out, and
> you've got 2 holes open in front of you after 5 holes, and you're backing up
> the whole course... it AIN'T gonna work. With cell phones, people will be
> calling the Ranger on you. That's assuming they don't start yelling at you
> themselves.
>
> Quite simply... a six and a half hour round behind a group that putts
> everything out just isn't any fun.

The problem behind a 6+ hour round is not related to them putting out.
It takes time wasting in every action of the round to make that kind of
a round. It's probably the fact that they mark every putt, realign
their ball on the seam, walk off the putt, in the most inefficient
manner possible. Yes, waiting for those last final putts are torture
when following a group of self-absorbed time wasters, but the tap-in is
not the problem.

I imagine I might not consume more than 15s to putt out. I just walk up
there, address the ball, and putt it in. IME when playing with
ready-golfers this it almost always works fine.

Dave

Date: 27 Aug 2006 15:11:09
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:45:31 -0400, David Geesaman
<dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote:

>The problem behind a 6+ hour round is not related to them putting out.
>It takes time wasting in every action of the round to make that kind of
>a round. It's probably the fact that they mark every putt, realign
>their ball on the seam, walk off the putt, in the most inefficient
>manner possible. Yes, waiting for those last final putts are torture
>when following a group of self-absorbed time wasters, but the tap-in is
>not the problem.
>
>I imagine I might not consume more than 15s to putt out. I just walk up
>there, address the ball, and putt it in. IME when playing with
>ready-golfers this it almost always works fine.

The real slow players are often real slow even with tap ins, not being
ready when it is their play.

But normal players don't save time with gimmes.

Date: 27 Aug 2006 13:39:33
From: Henry
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:45:31 -0400, David Geesaman
> <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem behind a 6+ hour round is not related to them putting out.
>> It takes time wasting in every action of the round to make that kind of
>> a round. It's probably the fact that they mark every putt, realign
>> their ball on the seam, walk off the putt, in the most inefficient
>> manner possible. Yes, waiting for those last final putts are torture
>> when following a group of self-absorbed time wasters, but the tap-in is
>> not the problem.
>>
>> I imagine I might not consume more than 15s to putt out. I just walk up
>> there, address the ball, and putt it in. IME when playing with
>> ready-golfers this it almost always works fine.
>
> The real slow players are often real slow even with tap ins, not being
> ready when it is their play.
>
> But normal players don't save time with gimmes.

Did you ever have a pleasant exchange with a guy who just missed a one
foot putt? How about after getting a gimme for a one footer? Just
saying in a friendly game (of chasing a little white dimpled ball, not
GOLF) the gimme day is more enjoyable unless you like watching someone
four-putt from 3 feet and all the accompanying hysterics ;-) In a
stroke-play tournament, or with money on the line, definitely
inappropriate. If you've got a hole open in front of you, let the group
waiting behind you thru.

Henry

Date: 28 Aug 2006 04:48:31
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 27-Aug-2006, Henry <HenryNot@home.com > wrote:

> Did you ever have a pleasant exchange with a guy who just missed a one
> foot putt?

Yeah, I ragged him all the way to the next tee, I found it most pleasant!
;-)

--
bill-o

A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:23:18
From: gary hayenga
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 2006-08-28 00:48:31 -0400, "bill-o" <assimilate@borg.org > said:

>
> On 27-Aug-2006, Henry <HenryNot@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Did you ever have a pleasant exchange with a guy who just missed a one
>> foot putt?
>
> Yeah, I ragged him all the way to the next tee, I found it most pleasant!
> ;-)

*I* didn't find it pleasant!

Oh wait, you weren't in that group :)

On the very first hole of RSG-Ohio 2001 there was a prize for the
shortest missed putt. I was in the very first group and blew a 1 foot
putt for bogey. Not only did I have to put up with the ragging from
the rest of the group, but every group after that was going to look on
the card 1 foot from the hole to see what moron had blown a 1 foot
putt, so I was really going to get it after that.

Worrying about that must have helped my golf game because I played well
the rest of the day and won the tournament.

gary hayenga

Date: 27 Aug 2006 09:14:26
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Tom, you need to move to a less urban state.

Tom K wrote:
> If you are a member at a private course where no one's behind you, take all
> the time you want.
>
> Or if you can just tap in gimmies without spending large amounts of time
> setting up, etc. That will work.
>
> But... If you're on a public course in a place like New Jersey, and you're
> taking your time lining up short putts, and putting everything out, and
> you've got 2 holes open in front of you after 5 holes, and you're backing up
> the whole course... it AIN'T gonna work. With cell phones, people will be
> calling the Ranger on you. That's assuming they don't start yelling at you
> themselves.
>
> Quite simply... a six and a half hour round behind a group that putts
> everything out just isn't any fun. Not if they've fallen 6 holes behind by
> the end of the round.
>
> If you're going to do it, make sure the rest of your game (and everyone
> else's in your group) can save the necessary time to allow you to do that if
> you're on a crowded course.
>
> --Tom
>
>
> "WhiteOut" <gofins@07.com> wrote in message
> news:UyGHg.17524$gY6.13010@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>> when i learned how to play at the age of 9, i was taught to play every
>> shot until i hear it hit the bottom of the cup. several years later i
>> read harvey penik's little red book and he says the same thing.
>>
>> i don't like taking gimmes even after they have been given, but i don't
>> want to offend my playing opponents...
>>
>> (and i don't particularly like giving them either, but really don't
>> care--i'm playing against myself more than anyone else, so once someone
>> has given me one then i feel compelled to give back)
>>
>> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it?
>> i feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of
>> completion...
>>
>> thoughts?
>>
>
>

Date: 28 Aug 2006 04:46:30
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 27-Aug-2006, "Tom K" <tkanitra@optonline.net > wrote:

> But... If you're on a public course in a place like New Jersey, and
> you're taking your time lining up short putts, and putting everything
> out, and
> you've got 2 holes open in front of you after 5 holes, and you're backing
> up the whole course... it AIN'T gonna work.

If your backing up the course after 5 holes, you've got more serious issues
than being meticulious on the greens, even then, if every one lines there
putts while others are putting it does not take long to putt them all out.
As we all know a major cause of slow play is simply not being ready when it
is your turn.

--
bill-o

A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.

Date: 27 Aug 2006 18:30:55
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

David wrote:
> On 26 Aug 2006 18:07:14 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >> > You arre correct... but I play very little mach play... :)
> >>
> >>
> >> I, too, play very little match play. In fact, the last time I played match
> >> play was at the 2002 edition of RSG-ATLANTA.
> >>
> >> Oddly, I recall reading once that match play is a far more popular format,
> >> worldwide, among recreational players. I personally find that pretty hard
> >> to believe, as I'd never personally witnessed anyone playing it in
> >> recreational rounds. But of course, as always, I could be wrong. I often
> >> am.
> >
> >A buddy and I have been playing some informal match play within normal
> >stroke play. Since the stroke play is of no significance other than
> >handicap, a gimme or two isn't going to hurt anything. About the only
> >time I play official match play is if I play in the club match
> >championship which occurs once per year. I played in it this year for
> >the first time since about 2001.
>
> Well, I live in Germany (I am american). Here, you find virtually
> only match play, since rounds not played in tournaments are not
> counted toward a handicap. That may be why more people are playing
> stroke play in friendly competitions in the US.

It's because stroke play is the bulk of what we see on tv...

Date: 28 Aug 2006 16:22:41
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 15:13:30 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >I missed a 2.5 footer yestertay... read greak that wasn't there, then
> >hit if so firm it wouldn't have taken it if it had been there. :)
>
> I did exactly the same thing from the same distance downhill, but
> missed it coming back from 3 feet. Three putts from 2.5
> feet.....embarrasing.

OTOH... I made a very nice down hill side hiller about 3 feet long
earlier... center cup. :)

Date: 28 Aug 2006 22:20:39
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

dsc wrote:

> I missed a 2.5 footer yestertay... read greak that wasn't there, then
> hit if so firm it wouldn't have taken it if it had been there. :)

I had an 8 footer for eagle once; wound up missing a one inch putt and
taking a bogie!

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:13:30
From: dsc
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

I missed a 2.5 footer yestertay... read greak that wasn't there, then
hit if so firm it wouldn't have taken it if it had been there. :)

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:34:20
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On 28 Aug 2006 15:13:30 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:

>
>I missed a 2.5 footer yestertay... read greak that wasn't there, then
>hit if so firm it wouldn't have taken it if it had been there. :)

I did exactly the same thing from the same distance downhill, but
missed it coming back from 3 feet. Three putts from 2.5
feet.....embarrasing.
___,
\o

Date: 29 Aug 2006 03:11:10
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:34:20 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>I did exactly the same thing from the same distance downhill, but
>missed it coming back from 3 feet. Three putts from 2.5
>feet.....embarrasing.

I took a quick swing once of a "gimme", and the ball hit my foot
instead of going in.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 22:22:34
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:11:10 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:34:20 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I did exactly the same thing from the same distance downhill, but
>>missed it coming back from 3 feet. Three putts from 2.5
>>feet.....embarrasing.
>
>I took a quick swing once of a "gimme", and the ball hit my foot
>instead of going in.

Wow. If that was your second putt on the hole, and you made the next
one after hitting your foot, that's a 5 putt.
___,
\o

Date: 29 Aug 2006 03:25:12
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:22:34 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>>I took a quick swing once of a "gimme", and the ball hit my foot
>>instead of going in.
>
>Wow. If that was your second putt on the hole, and you made the next
>one after hitting your foot, that's a 5 putt.

I was not a happy camper.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:02:30
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: gimmes -- opinions

WhiteOut wrote:

> so...should i hole 'em out anyway? or am i being too nit-picky about it? i
> feel like by not holing the putt i've lost a little...sense of completion...

I guess it all depends on who you're playing with. I joined a threesome
the other day, and one of the guys said, "We give gimmes inside the
leather," then pulled out his belly putter, which had an enormous grip.
They casually gave gimmes to each other and to me within about 2 feet
during the round. It would have felt odd to say to them, "You guys may
have your rules, but I'm governed by the ROG." So I just went along.

I have a regular foursome that plays and we had a fight about gimmes in
1980 or so and don't use them. So that's okay for that group.

I think it really depends on the circumstance of your round. When I'm
practicing by myself, I put them all out - it's a good chance to
practice 1, 2, & 3 foot putts.

Ed