| |
Main
Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:08:10
From: warren montgomery
Subject: can we really putt like the pros?
|
The thread that includes slow play on the greens reminded me of something I
wanted to post. When I see Tiger and others canning 30 footers and looking
like they knew it was going to go in there I really wonder whether the rest
of us can ever come close. Playing my early morning round the other day I
realize that the pros have one thing going for them that most of us don't --
smooth greens. Putt on any course that gets a fair amount of play in the
morning when there is a little dew on the greens and you will get an
education on the effects of those little bumps. Those delicate downhill
putts wind up doing a bit of a random walk as they carom off the poorly
repaired ballmarks and old cups in the way. A putt of anything more than
about 10 feet will probably strike a bump and start to skip on the green --
making it go further than one rolling smoothly. The effect tells me that
anything sunk on what's a "normal" green from more than about 10 feet got
lucky. Yes, you have to get it going in the right direction and the right
speed, but the bumps are enough to put the shot off line or too fast to fall
in if it's not lucky with the bumps. I've had the opportunity to play on
private courses that get very little play a few times in my life and the
putting experience there is quite different from what's normal. Sure, the
tour players have a few knocked off by bumps too, but it's noteable when
that happens, not noteable when a putt rolls smoothly start to finish.
I'm not sure what to do about it, other than consider yourself lucky when
you make a long one and don't obsess over a line that's goin to need a lot
of luck to hold.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
|
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:37:03
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
warren montgomery wrote:
> The thread that includes slow play on the greens reminded me of something I
> wanted to post. When I see Tiger and others canning 30 footers and looking
> like they knew it was going to go in there I really wonder whether the rest
> of us can ever come close. Playing my early morning round the other day I
> realize that the pros have one thing going for them that most of us don't --
> smooth greens. Putt on any course that gets a fair amount of play in the
> morning when there is a little dew on the greens and you will get an
> education on the effects of those little bumps. Those delicate downhill
> putts wind up doing a bit of a random walk as they carom off the poorly
> repaired ballmarks and old cups in the way. A putt of anything more than
> about 10 feet will probably strike a bump and start to skip on the green --
> making it go further than one rolling smoothly. The effect tells me that
> anything sunk on what's a "normal" green from more than about 10 feet got
> lucky. Yes, you have to get it going in the right direction and the right
> speed, but the bumps are enough to put the shot off line or too fast to fall
> in if it's not lucky with the bumps. I've had the opportunity to play on
> private courses that get very little play a few times in my life and the
> putting experience there is quite different from what's normal. Sure, the
> tour players have a few knocked off by bumps too, but it's noteable when
> that happens, not noteable when a putt rolls smoothly start to finish.
>
> I'm not sure what to do about it, other than consider yourself lucky when
> you make a long one and don't obsess over a line that's goin to need a lot
> of luck to hold.
>
Setting aside the question of whether we can really putt like the pros
(I'm not sure what that means, exactly), if what you are saying is true,
Warren, then there would be little difference in success levels among
different golfers.
On my course we have the usual problems of bumps and ballmarks and so
on. The best putters here are always the best ones regardless of the
conditions of the greens. The best putters sink the most longer putts
regardless of the condition of the greens. That tells me there is more
skill involved than would be suggested by your post.
Yes, putts do get knocked offline. I can think of one or two I've had
over the last couple of weeks, putts that were dead on line and struck
well, that then hit something that kicked them away from the hole.
But I also made a lot of putts too. If I have the line I look at it and
fix any ballmarks; mostly, once that's done, if I have hit the line at
the right speed I'm making the putt.
One solution for the kind of putting woes you describe is to hit the
ball with more topspin right off the putterhead. The sooner the putt
has topspin, the more it'll track the line, and the less influence
surface imperfections will have on it.
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:47:13
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:37:03 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdor.com >
wrote:
<clip >
>One solution for the kind of putting woes you describe is to hit the
>ball with more topspin right off the putterhead. The sooner the putt
>has topspin, the more it'll track the line, and the less influence
>surface imperfections will have on it.
>
>Mike
Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
keep the ball on line.
I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
___,
\o
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:56:21
From: MnMikew
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:gd4bg299vgic8958ok9035rc6n3i28ko2t@4ax.com...
>
> Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
> He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
> press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
> if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
> keep the ball on line.
>
> I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
Played on Saturday on a course that recently aerated the greens. It was like
putting on an Aggravation game board. My putting was great though unlike my
chipping, arggg. One point out of the money for low net. :-()
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 15:52:59
From: Michael Anselmo
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
"MnMikew" <mnmiikkew@aol.com > wrote in message
news:4mlipmF6mncoU1@individual.net...
>
> "Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
> news:gd4bg299vgic8958ok9035rc6n3i28ko2t@4ax.com...
>>
>> Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
>> He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
>> press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
>> if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
>> keep the ball on line.
>>
>> I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
>
> Played on Saturday on a course that recently aerated the greens. It was
> like putting on an Aggravation game board. My putting was great though
> unlike my chipping, arggg. One point out of the money for low net. :-()
>
>
>
Yesterday I played on a course with aerated greens. I'm a terrible golfer
and the course kicked my ass, but I had 35 putts. I felt I was putting
better than that, but in the end, it was about my average. One putt that was
the highlight of the day was a 4 footer up a slight incline. It looked like
it was going to die in the hole but it hit a depression or something and as
it died it turned 180 degrees and rolled a few inches. The rest of the
course was in immaculate condition and it was a beautiful day. What's better
than that?
Mike
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 13:49:33
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:37:03 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdor.com>
> wrote:
>
> <clip>
>
>>One solution for the kind of putting woes you describe is to hit the
>>ball with more topspin right off the putterhead. The sooner the putt
>>has topspin, the more it'll track the line, and the less influence
>>surface imperfections will have on it.
>>
>>Mike
>
>
> Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
> He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
> press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
> if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
> keep the ball on line.
>
> I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
> ___,
> \o
>
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 01:57:05
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:47:13 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:
>Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
>He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
>press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
>if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
>keep the ball on line.
>
>I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
I don't know about that - but if he was good enough of a hustler, he
wouldn't need to cheat.
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 20:59:17
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:57:05 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 11:47:13 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
>>He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
>>press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
>>if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
>>keep the ball on line.
>>
>>I've never tried it, but it makes sense.
>
>I don't know about that - but if he was good enough of a hustler, he
>wouldn't need to cheat.
Tell us all about hustlers Howard. What the hell do you think
separates a hustler from good players?
--
___,
\o
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 03:38:08
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
On 11-Sep-2006, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdor.com > wrote:
> warren montgomery wrote:
> > The thread that includes slow play on the greens reminded me of
> > something I
> > wanted to post. When I see Tiger and others canning 30 footers and
> > looking
> > like they knew it was going to go in there I really wonder whether the
> > rest
> > of us can ever come close. Playing my early morning round the other day
> > I
> > realize that the pros have one thing going for them that most of us
> > don't --
> > smooth greens. Putt on any course that gets a fair amount of play in
> > the
> > morning when there is a little dew on the greens and you will get an
> > education on the effects of those little bumps. Those delicate downhill
> >
> > putts wind up doing a bit of a random walk as they carom off the poorly
> > repaired ballmarks and old cups in the way. A putt of anything more
> > than
> > about 10 feet will probably strike a bump and start to skip on the green
> > --
> > making it go further than one rolling smoothly. The effect tells me
> > that
> > anything sunk on what's a "normal" green from more than about 10 feet
> > got
> > lucky. Yes, you have to get it going in the right direction and the
> > right
> > speed, but the bumps are enough to put the shot off line or too fast to
> > fall
> > in if it's not lucky with the bumps. I've had the opportunity to play
> > on
> > private courses that get very little play a few times in my life and the
> >
> > putting experience there is quite different from what's normal. Sure,
> > the
> > tour players have a few knocked off by bumps too, but it's noteable when
> >
> > that happens, not noteable when a putt rolls smoothly start to finish.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do about it, other than consider yourself lucky
> > when
> > you make a long one and don't obsess over a line that's goin to need a
> > lot
> > of luck to hold.
> >
>
> Setting aside the question of whether we can really putt like the pros
> (I'm not sure what that means, exactly), if what you are saying is true,
> Warren, then there would be little difference in success levels among
> different golfers.
>
> On my course we have the usual problems of bumps and ballmarks and so
> on. The best putters here are always the best ones regardless of the
> conditions of the greens. The best putters sink the most longer putts
> regardless of the condition of the greens. That tells me there is more
> skill involved than would be suggested by your post.
Much of it between the ears.
>
> Yes, putts do get knocked offline. I can think of one or two I've had
> over the last couple of weeks, putts that were dead on line and struck
> well, that then hit something that kicked them away from the hole.
Then there's the 45 ft birdie I made because it hit a bump, otherwise it
would have been another burned edge
>
> But I also made a lot of putts too. If I have the line I look at it and
> fix any ballmarks; mostly, once that's done, if I have hit the line at
> the right speed I'm making the putt.
And every one I miss makes the next one more likely to go in.
>
> One solution for the kind of putting woes you describe is to hit the
> ball with more topspin right off the putterhead. The sooner the putt
> has topspin, the more it'll track the line, and the less influence
> surface imperfections will have on it.
Physically impossible w/o topping the ball, just get it rolling w/o it
getting airborne even for the splittest of seconds.
--
bill-o
A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 18:05:05
From: dsc
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
sugnaboris@gmail.com wrote:
> Bobby Knight wrote:
>
> > Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
> > He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
> > press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
> > if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
> > keep the ball on line.
>
> But it depends on no one noticing that you're cheating, which would
> work against a hustler who's playing golf for a living.
>
> Also, for topspin to be imparted as described, there has to be a
> reaction between the ball and the front of the depression. This would
> introduce an additional translational force on the ball, with
> components along the line of putt and normal to that line
I was putting from just off the green to a hole about 60 feet away. I
was making a large stroke and accidentally topped it. D@mned thing
kicked into 4 wheel drive and drove off on the line I intended and just
missed stopping about 3 feet beyond the hole. Buess I miss-read it. :)
I witnessed the sister-in-law of a friend of mind make just such a
topped putt in a scaramble in July. :)
|
| |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 11:41:27
From:
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
Bobby Knight wrote:
> Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
> He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
> press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
> if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
> keep the ball on line.
But it depends on no one noticing that you're cheating, which would
work against a hustler who's playing golf for a living.
Also, for topspin to be imparted as described, there has to be a
reaction between the ball and the front of the depression. This would
introduce an additional translational force on the ball, with
components along the line of putt and normal to that line. It's hard to
credit that these would be less significant than the topspin (due to
the off-axis rotational force), and so I would expect the nett effect
to be detrimental over a large enough number of putts.
I watched Craig Stadler hit a few putts prior to teeing off during the
1989 Open Championship. I've never seen anything as smooth as the way
he rolled the ball from 15 feet.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Sep 2006 13:44:55
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
On 11 Sep 2006 11:41:27 -0700, sugnaboris@gmail.com wrote:
>
>Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>> Reminds me of round that I played with a well-known hustler in L.A.
>> He, when placing his ball in front of the marker on the green, would
>> press it down very hard. I noticed, and asked why. He told me that
>> if a ball is in such a depression and putted, the overspin tends to
>> keep the ball on line.
>
>But it depends on no one noticing that you're cheating, which would
>work against a hustler who's playing golf for a living.
>
You can bet that he only tried things like that, and chapstick, on
unknowing, and naive, pigeons.
>Also, for topspin to be imparted as described, there has to be a
>reaction between the ball and the front of the depression. This would
>introduce an additional translational force on the ball, with
>components along the line of putt and normal to that line. It's hard to
>credit that these would be less significant than the topspin (due to
>the off-axis rotational force), and so I would expect the nett effect
>to be detrimental over a large enough number of putts.
>
I wouldn't think that it would for someone who makes consistent,
solid, contact with his putter.
>I watched Craig Stadler hit a few putts prior to teeing off during the
>1989 Open Championship. I've never seen anything as smooth as the way
>he rolled the ball from 15 feet.
___,
\o
|
| |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 12:09:01
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote ...
> The thread that includes slow play on the greens reminded me of something
> I wanted to post. When I see Tiger and others canning 30 footers and
> looking like they knew it was going to go in there I really wonder whether
> the rest of us can ever come close. Playing my early morning round the
> other day I realize that the pros have one thing going for them that most
> of us don't -- smooth greens. Putt on any course that gets a fair amount
> of play in the morning when there is a little dew on the greens and you
> will get an education on the effects of those little bumps. Those
> delicate downhill putts wind up doing a bit of a random walk as they carom
> off the poorly repaired ballmarks and old cups in the way. A putt of
> anything more than about 10 feet will probably strike a bump and start to
> skip on the green -- making it go further than one rolling smoothly. The
> effect tells me that anything sunk on what's a "normal" green from more
> than about 10 feet got lucky. Yes, you have to get it going in the right
> direction and the right speed, but the bumps are enough to put the shot
> off line or too fast to fall in if it's not lucky with the bumps. I've
> had the opportunity to play on private courses that get very little play a
> few times in my life and the putting experience there is quite different
> from what's normal. Sure, the tour players have a few knocked off by
> bumps too, but it's noteable when that happens, not noteable when a putt
> rolls smoothly start to finish.
>
> I'm not sure what to do about it, other than consider yourself lucky when
> you make a long one and don't obsess over a line that's goin to need a lot
> of luck to hold.
Just one problem with your thesis, Warren...
I've played several rounds of golf with TOUR pros -- current pros, Senior
TOUR pros, and retired TOUR pros. And I've played with them on courses that
*I* play, which have somewhat less than perfect greens -- more like the
greens most of us putt on (perhaps a little better than some "muni" greens,
as I try to avoid courses, for the most part, with truly awful
greens)...although I do play them occasionally. And while they don't can as
many 30-footers as we've seen Tiger make when he's winning (who ever does?)
when playing on those less-than-perfect greens, they do make their share.
And from 10-feet and in, they're deadly.
So I would opine that it's more than simply the quality of the putting
surfaces that separates us from them. Certainly those smooth surfaces we
often see them on plays a part in it, but if you've ever putted the greens
at Pebble Beach in February (when the AT&T Pebble Beach Nat'l Pro-Am is
held), you know they're not exactly what one would call "ideal" by any
stretch, especially when the spongy, wet surfaces get bumpy from the spike
marks (and I'm not talking about metal spikes, I'm referring to the "nubs"
of soft spikes leaving depressions, or indentations, in the surface).
I think there are two things that separate pros from most recreational
players in the context of putting quality.
First, their strokes are so well-grooved that they just about always hit the
ball where they intend to, and their speed control is far superior to ours.
Second, and perhaps the thing that is most underappreciated, pros are just
better at READING greens.
Those skills translate equally well on bad greens. They may not hole AS
MANY putts on bad greens as they do on those billiard table-like greens they
enjoy at certain venues, but they'd still be a leg (or two) up on the rest
of us when putting on bad greens because of those two superior skills.
Randy
|
| | |
Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:00:47
From: Loudon Briggs
Subject: Re: can we really putt like the pros?
|
"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:
(CLIP)
>I think there are two things that separate pros from most recreational
>players in the context of putting quality.
>
>First, their strokes are so well-grooved that they just about always hit the
>ball where they intend to, and their speed control is far superior to ours.
>
>Second, and perhaps the thing that is most underappreciated, pros are just
>better at READING greens.
(CLIP)
and thirdly... they probably PRACTISE more in a day than most of us do
in a month.
Here's part of an exchange with Dave Tutelman from a few years ago.
Both his message and mine pointedly emphasize the need to practise.
>>Don't attribute your lack of success to whether or not the putter is face
>>balanced. Putting looks very simple, but there's as much to be learned and
>>practiced there as on the full swing. A little over a year ago, I got Dave
>>Pelz' book "Putt Like the Pros",((((( and practiced his putting technique all
>>winter. Two things happened:
>> 1. My putting got better and more consistent.)))))
>>
>>Good luck!
>>Dave
>
>I've been reading these many postings about putting and the portion of
>Dave's I've enclosed caught my eye as it reminded me of something that
>happened to me long ago.
>
>I happen to be able to see the line much better when putting
>lefthanded (dominant eye stuff) and decided at the end of a season to
>practise from the left all winter long. As Dave said... my putting got
>better and more consistent. All I could think about is "why haven't I
>switched before" and "I can't wait to get out to the course, come
>Spring." When I did, it was like I was in another world... I was a
>terror from any distance, over rolling greens, Bobby Locke should be
>so good!
>
>After about 3 or 4 weeks I realized that Bobby had nothing to worry
>about from me... my putting had regressed to a point that I gave up
>and went back to putting from the right side. I asked the pro to watch
>me and comment and it took him about two minutes to arrive at the
>correct conclusion. He asked me, " how often did you practise during
>the winter" and I told him, 1/2 to 1 hour every day. "And now?" he
>said and I knew the answer to his question was the answer to my
>problem. When I began to play again I quit practising at home and on
>the day I played, maybe rolled a 1/2 dozen balls at a cup in a
>haphazard manner on the practise green.
>
>I've never had the inclination to practise an hour a day again and
>though I'm a pretty fair putter, I've never been as good as I was when
>I did.
--
Loudon R. Briggs larebe@bbz.net Phoenix, AZ
"How Can You Not Like A Game Where It's Okay To
Get Teed Off, Tote A Six-Iron, Shoot Birdies,
and If You're Under Par It's A Great Day!"
(from "Frank & Ernest" by Bob Thaves -- used with permission)
|
|
