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Main
Date: 24 Oct 2006 06:29:44
From: annika1980
Subject: Words from a War Hero
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After Pat's Birthday
Posted on 19, 2006
By Kevin Tillman
Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
has written a powerful, must-read document.
---------------------------
It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after.
It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we
joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers.
How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership
and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of
our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a
voice... until we got out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat
to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was
involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium
from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be
liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an
insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a
civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and
humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly
kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not
charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that
overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in
the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a
five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send
it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an
extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third
or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a
faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad
in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle
50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the
seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal
invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people
and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage,
virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are
allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is
tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is
tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country
safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world
has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and
distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been
replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous,
malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people.
So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation
as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely,
they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear,
insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to
unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice.
People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 09:41:30
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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annika1980 wrote:
> Tex wrote:
> >
> > Blah, blah, blah....let's give the bully pulpit to ALL brothers,
> > sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc to all soldiers who died...not
> > just the ones that speak out against....
> >
>
> Typical Republican .... always blame or attack the messenger.
LOL! That's rich. Kathleen Willey, Monica, Gennifer Flowers, Linda
Tripp...
> BTW, if you aren't against the war then you must be for it. So tell us
> once again about all the good things this war is doing for us and what
> the rosy outcome will be.
We're killing terrorists on the battlefield.
> There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
There wasn't victory in sight in WW2 until the Battle of Midway. I'm
sure you would have been saying the same thing back then.
> The only questions are
> when do we leave, how much more money will we spend, and how many more
> Americans and Iraqis will die in the meantime?
Yeah, I'm sure the Iraqis would live in peace when we leave, right?
Kinda like the slaughter of the Cambodians after leaving Vietnam.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:52:06
From: Don Kirkman
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Larry Bud wrote in article
<1161708090.314308.46770@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >:
>annika1980 wrote:
>> BTW, if you aren't against the war then you must be for it. So tell us
>> once again about all the good things this war is doing for us and what
>> the rosy outcome will be.
>We're killing terrorists on the battlefield.
>> There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
>There wasn't victory in sight in WW2 until the Battle of Midway. I'm
>sure you would have been saying the same thing back then.
Let's see, Midway, wasn't that about six months after we entered the
way? And from then on we knew we were winning, IIRC, and we had
"victory" pretty well defined.
Nope, no parallel there, I guess. In fact a lot of optimism had already
developed following Doolittle's raid on Japan on April 18, 1942.
--
Don Kirkman
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 17:21:18
From: Howard9
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
He played golf ? Who knew !!!!
--
Howard
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 08:24:15
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
Tex wrote:
>
> Blah, blah, blah....let's give the bully pulpit to ALL brothers,
> sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc to all soldiers who died...not
> just the ones that speak out against....
>
Typical Republican .... always blame or attack the messenger.
It doesn't matter if the messenger is that dastardly liberal left-wing
media, a bereaved mother or brother, or Generals and ex-soldiers who
have returned from battle.
Slam them all!
You can't believe those folks, right? They all have an axe to grind.
So keep believing Bush and Rumsfeld if it makes your life easier.
That way, you don't even have to think.
BTW, if you aren't against the war then you must be for it. So tell us
once again about all the good things this war is doing for us and what
the rosy outcome will be.
There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal. The only questions are
when do we leave, how much more money will we spend, and how many more
Americans and Iraqis will die in the meantime?
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| | |
Date: 24 Oct 2006 12:27:19
From: MnMikew
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1161703455.427592.30820@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tex wrote:
>>
>> Blah, blah, blah....let's give the bully pulpit to ALL brothers,
>> sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc to all soldiers who died...not
>> just the ones that speak out against....
>>
>
> Typical Republican .... always blame or attack the messenger.
Good one Mr. Pot.
>
> It doesn't matter if the messenger is that dastardly liberal left-wing
> media, a bereaved mother or brother, or Generals and ex-soldiers who
> have returned from battle.
> Slam them all!
You mean like slamming all Repubs as pedophiles?
>
> You can't believe those folks, right? They all have an axe to grind.
> So keep believing Bush and Rumsfeld if it makes your life easier.
> That way, you don't even have to think.
Not thinking has gotten you far hasn't it?
>
> There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
A defeatist liberal speaks.
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 07:30:44
From: Tex
Subject: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
Miss Anne Thrope wrote:
> "Blah, blah, blah..."
>
> Some of Tex's most insightful, witty, and educated thoughts EVER.
I knew those were the only words you'd understand....obviously I was
correct.
Back to your kiddie porn and beatings.
Tex
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 10:19:42
From: Miss Anne Thrope
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
"Blah, blah, blah..."
Some of Tex's most insightful, witty, and educated thoughts EVER.
Way to go mouth breather.
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 06:51:00
From: Tex
Subject: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
annika1980 wrote:
> After Pat's Birthday
> Posted on 19, 2006
> By Kevin Tillman
>
> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
> has written a powerful, must-read document.
> ---------------------------
>
> It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after.
> It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we
> joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers.
> How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership
> and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of
> our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a
> voice... until we got out.
>
> Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
>
> Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat
> to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was
> involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium
> from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be
> liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an
> insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a
> civil war even though it is. Something like that.
>
> Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
> is not and condemns everything that it is.
>
> Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and
> humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly
> kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not
> charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that
> overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in
> the military.
>
> Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a
> five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send
> it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an
> extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third
> or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a
> faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad
> in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle
> 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the
> seat.
>
> Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal
> invasion becomes.
>
> Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people
> and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage,
> virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
>
> Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are
> allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
>
> Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
>
> Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
>
> Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is
> tolerated.
>
> Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is
> tolerated.
>
> Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country
> safe.
>
> Somehow torture is tolerated.
>
> Somehow lying is tolerated.
>
> Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
>
> Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
>
> Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
>
> Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it
> is not and condemns everything that it is.
>
> Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world
> has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and
> distrusted countries in the world.
>
> Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been
> replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
>
> Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous,
> malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
>
> Somehow this is tolerated.
>
> Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
>
> In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people.
> So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation
> as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely,
> they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear,
> insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to
> unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
>
> Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice.
> People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
>
>
> Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
>
> Kevin Tillman
Blah, blah, blah....let's give the bully pulpit to ALL brothers,
sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc to all soldiers who died...not
just the ones that speak out against....
If you want change, VOTE. If you want attention, publish.
Tex
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 18:59:12
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
On 24, 6:29 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com > wrote:
> After Pat's Birthday
> Posted on 19, 2006
> By Kevin Tillman
>
> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
> has written a powerful, must-read document.
> ---------------------------
The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
particular war.
-Greg
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 22:04:23
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
Dene wrote:
>
> On 24, 6:29 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com> wrote:
>> After Pat's Birthday
>> Posted on 19, 2006
>> By Kevin Tillman
>>
>> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
>> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
>> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
>> has written a powerful, must-read document.
>> ---------------------------
>
> The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
> note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
> particular war.
It's all the same war. What we don't hear about is what is happening in
Afghanistan. The press only reports what fits its agenda.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:34:44
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
On Tue, 24 2006 22:04:23 -0400, Bert Robbins <screw@you.com >
wrote:
>> The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
>> note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
>> particular war.
>
>It's all the same war. What we don't hear about is what is happening in
>Afghanistan. The press only reports what fits its agenda.
Afghanistan was a war against terrorism. The president had different
stated reasons for invading Iraq, and his actions have very strongly
helped bin Laden's cause.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:09:19
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
|
On Wed, 25 2006 05:02:39 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com >
wrote:
>I'm not even convinced
>that the author owns a 1 iron; I can't imagine why he'd want to (I don't
>want one, and I'd guess I'd know more what to do with it than the average
>bear).
His stated reason makes sense - that learning to hit a 1-Iron is sort
of like learning to hit a Whippy. Using them on the range can be
useful in getting a better swing.
My personal experience on the range with a 2I show that my LW is
better at showing my swing faults. But I don't pretend that my
weaknesses and needs are everybody's.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:52:06
From: Don Kirkman
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
|
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dene wrote in article
<1161741552.755016.54890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >:
>On 24, 6:29 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com> wrote:
>> After Pat's Birthday
>> Posted on 19, 2006
>> By Kevin Tillman
>> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
>> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
>> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
>> has written a powerful, must-read document.
>The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
>note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
>particular war.
And, unless I'm misremembering, he was killed by our own troops in a
sort of panic situation. Not that that makes him less, or more, of a
hero.
--
Don Kirkman
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Date: 24 Oct 2006 16:40:38
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
MnMikew wrote:
>> > There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
>
> A defeatist liberal speaks.
More like a realist.
Just today the US military has announced a timeline for withdrawal that
the Iraqi govt. has agreed to. When many Democrats suggested doing this
many months (years) ago, they were labeled as "cut and run" Democrats
and it was said that having a timeline for withdrawal would just make
it easier for the enemy. Damn flip-floppers!
Also, Gen. Casey has suggested that more soldiers maybe needed in Iraq.
No shit!
That's what most of the generals told Rumsfeld before we even invaded.
And of course, this increase in troop numbers won't happen until after
the election. So the Bush regime doesn't have a problem with risking
the lives of Amercian servicemen for political reasons. If we needed
more troops last year or last week then we should have sent them then,
and not waited until some election was over back home.
Argue that!
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| | |
Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:59:40
From: MnMikew
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1161733238.697450.303700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> MnMikew wrote:
>>> > There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
>>
>> A defeatist liberal speaks.
>
> More like a realist.
>
> Just today the US military has announced a timeline for withdrawal that
> the Iraqi govt. has agreed to.
It was more like milestones being met and not a set timeline. Bush
reiterated that today in his press conference.
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Oct 2006 13:39:06
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
In article <4q9n0dFlpg7jU1@individual.net >,
"MnMikew" <mnmiikkew@aol.com > wrote:
> "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1161733238.697450.303700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > MnMikew wrote:
> >>> > There is no victory in sight, only withdrawal.
> >>
> >> A defeatist liberal speaks.
> >
> > More like a realist.
> >
> > Just today the US military has announced a timeline for withdrawal that
> > the Iraqi govt. has agreed to.
>
> It was more like milestones being met and not a set timeline. Bush
> reiterated that today in his press conference.
And they haven't actually set them. Bush said they would be discussing
it with the Iraqi leadership to set goals and timetables.
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Oct 2006 13:59:44
From: multi
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
On Wed, 25 2006 13:39:06 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>> > Just today the US military has announced a timeline for withdrawal that
>> > the Iraqi govt. has agreed to.
>>
>> It was more like milestones being met and not a set timeline. Bush
>> reiterated that today in his press conference.
>
>And they haven't actually set them. Bush said they would be discussing
>it with the Iraqi leadership to set goals and timetables.
Looks like this will work as well as all his other ideas:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501138.html
BAGHDAD, . 25 -- Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki lashed out at
the United States Wednesday, saying his popularly elected government
would not bend to U.S.-imposed benchmarks and timelines and
criticizing a U.S. and Iraqi military operation in a Shiite slum of
Baghdad that left at least five people dead and 20 wounded.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 10:56:16
From: John B.
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 25 2006 16:47:22 GMT, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
> >But if the position of
> >people like you remains that they should accept whatever
> >hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
> >they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore.
>
> The Army met its 2006 recruiting goal for the year with over three
> months to spare. The Air Force and Marines also have met their 2006
> goals. In addition, the Army, Air Force and Marines exceeded their
> retention goals for 2006.
>
> So the hypotheses that nobody will volunteer anymore is rejected.
All three branches lowered their recruitment goals in anticipation of
dramatically reduced interest in enlisting.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 20:57:57
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
On 25 2006 10:56:16 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>All three branches lowered their recruitment goals in anticipation of
>dramatically reduced interest in enlisting.
Dramatic? How about 1.8%.
"According to statistics obtained by The Associated Press, 3.8 percent
of the first-time recruits scored below certain aptitude levels. In
previous years, the Army had allowed only 2 percent of its recruits to
have low aptitude scores.
Besides, the Army has already met it's goals for the year on Sept 22.
They would have had no problem even under the old standards.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 10:42:43
From: Dene
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
|
Chris Bellomy wrote:
> There's a problem with your logic: it's a terrible recruiting
> slogan. "Join the army. Risk wasting your life."
I don't regard the overall war on terror as a waste, nor do the
recruits who joined. Vietnam....different story. Sure....the wrong
battlefield was picked in Iraq but at least many of the ultra-radicals
are being confronted on the battlefield instead of here or elsewhere.
Had we not brought the fight to them, they would have brought it to
us.....again!
> People will join knowing their risking *losing* their lives,
> if the loss is for a worthy cause. But if the position of
> people like you remains that they should accept whatever
> hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
> they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore. For a
> volunteer army to work, the implied agreement must be that
> the people (through the democratic system) will insure that
> their lives are put on the line only at real need, and then
> with reasonable chance to accomplish a mission that is both
> well defined and well planned.
I defer to those who have pointed out that recruitment is maxed out.
> I mean to be as dispassionate as possible about this argument,
> because your argument is logical enough on its own, and we
> don't want soldiers questioning their assignments. But those
> soldiers do count on the democratic process to keep Presidents
> on the straight and narrow, and it's exactly that process which
> is going on right here.
I think the length of time, it's overall purpose, and whether our
forces are being held back are the keys to morale. These three
elements are still in place in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think most
people, including the brave ones in the field, believe Bush when he
states that our commitment is not long term.
> I'll close with a personal note. I've disagreed with you a
> lot in the past, especially about your tone with people
> you've chosen to dislike. But your tone in political discussions
> has pretty consistently been civil and restrained, as it has
> been generally lately. I, for one, have noticed, and you
> deserve some kudos for that. So, kudos to you!
It's easy to be civil when I'm right. : > Besides, political
discussion piss Dalecki off. : > :>
Seriously, there are guys in this forum who have thoughtful and
interesting perspectives, including you, even Tex. I've really been
enjoying Bill-O's comments. Here I thought the guy was a simple suthin
golf ho who was 4 down to me with 5 to go. Glad we didn't engage in a
debate.
I'd lost!
-Greg
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| | |
Date: 26 Oct 2006 00:34:48
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
|
On Wed, 25 2006 17:00:13 -0700, larry <larry@delmardata.com >
wrote:
>I shot 78 today from the tips. I suspect soon you will be contending
>with the "fact" of old Larry's near scratch tournament scores. Imagine
>that, the chagrin of the RSG nutcase regulars having to swallow that a
>60 year old could start golfing and only 5 years later become a very
>low handicapper-- Doncha just hate it? How can you live with that??
>Have you considered suicide?
That will make a great story. How good the story will be depends on
which regulars you select as witnesses, and how much money you win
from them.
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Oct 2006 18:30:26
From: larry
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
|
On Thu, 26 2006 00:34:48 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Wed, 25 2006 17:00:13 -0700, larry <larry@delmardata.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I shot 78 today from the tips. I suspect soon you will be contending
>>with the "fact" of old Larry's near scratch tournament scores. Imagine
>>that, the chagrin of the RSG nutcase regulars having to swallow that a
>>60 year old could start golfing and only 5 years later become a very
>>low handicapper-- Doncha just hate it? How can you live with that??
>>Have you considered suicide?
>
>That will make a great story. How good the story will be depends on
>which regulars you select as witnesses, and how much money you win
>from them.
Whew! USGA tournament golf is wildly different than RSG tournament
golf.
Larry (KING of RSG)
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Oct 2006 20:34:28
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
|
"larry" <larry@delmardata.com > wrote in message
news:0s30k2978mf7mj9nh39uvqt0faona2knme@4ax.com...
> Whew! USGA tournament golf is wildly different than RSG tournament
> golf.
>
> Larry (KING of RSG)
Hey King
Name one USGA Tournament you've played in.
Let me guess--you won't respond.
|
| | | | |
Date: 26 Oct 2006 01:53:50
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
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On Wed, 25 2006 18:30:26 -0700, larry <larry@delmardata.com >
wrote:
>>That will make a great story. How good the story will be depends on
>>which regulars you select as witnesses, and how much money you win
>>from them.
>
>Whew! USGA tournament golf is wildly different than RSG tournament
>golf.
The Rules of Golf are the Rules of Golf.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 21:36:08
From: RB
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 25 2006 18:30:26 -0700, larry <larry@delmardata.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> That will make a great story. How good the story will be depends on
>>> which regulars you select as witnesses, and how much money you win
>> >from them.
>>
>> Whew! USGA tournament golf is wildly different than RSG tournament
>> golf.
>
> The Rules of Golf are the Rules of Golf.
No, his club events are "Sanctioned USGA Tournaments", as opposed to
club tournaments and events played according to USGA rules.
--
Ron
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Date: 27 Oct 2006 05:05:50
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
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On 25--2006, RB <probablyfake@madeup.com > wrote:
> No, his club events are "Sanctioned USGA Tournaments", as opposed to
> club tournaments and events played according to USGA rules.
So they let chops into USGA events now? Even for the pub links you have to
be a 8.4
--
bill-o
A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.
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Date: 27 Oct 2006 18:49:12
From: RB
Subject: Re: One Iron from a tight lie
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bill-o wrote:
> On 25--2006, RB <probablyfake@madeup.com> wrote:
>
>> No, his club events are "Sanctioned USGA Tournaments", as opposed to
>> club tournaments and events played according to USGA rules.
>
> So they let chops into USGA events now? Even for the pub links you have to
> be a 8.4
>
I was being facetious. :-)
His claims of "USGA Tournament Golf" are nothing more than exaggerations
that don't comport with the facts. Further, he assumes that any golf
not played in, at, or as part of a club must not therefore be played
according to the Rules of Golf.
Funny. In his last twenty rounds, he has not a single "T" score.
Oh, well. Just a nit, I know.
--
Ron
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 08:34:18
From: Dene
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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annika1980 wrote:
> None. I have no problem with us being in Afghanistan. We should've
> gone into Afghanistan full force and captured Bin Laden when we had the
> chance. (Five bucks says he's already dead now and the US Army knows
> it.)
>
> So yes, Pat Tillman signed up and knew exactly what he was getting
> into. His death by friendly fire (which the army tried to cover up) was
> tragic. He was a true hero ...a guy who chose to serve his country when
> he could've been making millions in the NFL, and who knew the dangers
> he could be put it.
Glad we agree here. I would further add that Tillman's lament would be
more relevent had he and others been drafted. Instead, they joined,
with full knowledge that their lives would be endangered, perhaps
wasted.
> All this does not excuse the ever-increasing number of casualties that
> we are incurring in Iraq, and for what? The whole Iraq thing has been
> FUBAR from the start. Bush and Rumsfeld should be held accountable for
> that, but you'd rather blame the dead soldiers or their grieving
> families.
Well is hell. But there is something that's worse.....losing the war.
Bush was wrong for invading Iraq. 20/20 hindsight has revealed that
but an important choice remains.....retreat or finish the dirty job.
He's right to finish it by finishing the job of training Iraqi security
and turning their country over to them. We can only pray that the
final result will not be as inept as the South Vietnam forces were.
-Greg
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 16:47:22
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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Dene <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:
:
: annika1980 wrote:
:
: > None. I have no problem with us being in Afghanistan. We should've
: > gone into Afghanistan full force and captured Bin Laden when we had the
: > chance. (Five bucks says he's already dead now and the US Army knows
: > it.)
: >
: > So yes, Pat Tillman signed up and knew exactly what he was getting
: > into. His death by friendly fire (which the army tried to cover up) was
: > tragic. He was a true hero ...a guy who chose to serve his country when
: > he could've been making millions in the NFL, and who knew the dangers
: > he could be put it.
:
: Glad we agree here. I would further add that Tillman's lament would be
: more relevent had he and others been drafted. Instead, they joined,
: with full knowledge that their lives would be endangered, perhaps
: wasted.
There's a problem with your logic: it's a terrible recruiting
slogan. "Join the army. Risk wasting your life."
People will join knowing their risking *losing* their lives,
if the loss is for a worthy cause. But if the position of
people like you remains that they should accept whatever
hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore. For a
volunteer army to work, the implied agreement must be that
the people (through the democratic system) will insure that
their lives are put on the line only at real need, and then
with reasonable chance to accomplish a mission that is both
well defined and well planned.
I mean to be as dispassionate as possible about this argument,
because your argument is logical enough on its own, and we
don't want soldiers questioning their assignments. But those
soldiers do count on the democratic process to keep Presidents
on the straight and narrow, and it's exactly that process which
is going on right here.
I'll close with a personal note. I've disagreed with you a
lot in the past, especially about your tone with people
you've chosen to dislike. But your tone in political discussions
has pretty consistently been civil and restrained, as it has
been generally lately. I, for one, have noticed, and you
deserve some kudos for that. So, kudos to you!
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 13:11:11
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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On Wed, 25 2006 16:47:22 GMT, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:
>But if the position of
>people like you remains that they should accept whatever
>hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
>they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore.
The Army met its 2006 recruiting goal for the year with over three
months to spare. The Air Force and Marines also have met their 2006
goals. In addition, the Army, Air Force and Marines exceeded their
retention goals for 2006.
So the hypotheses that nobody will volunteer anymore is rejected.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:18:43
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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In article <p46vj2dfkj1hobqjmp4uv4hvvhc6aclr8p@4ax.com >,
Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 25 2006 16:47:22 GMT, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
> >But if the position of
> >people like you remains that they should accept whatever
> >hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
> >they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore.
>
> The Army met its 2006 recruiting goal for the year with over three
> months to spare. The Air Force and Marines also have met their 2006
> goals. In addition, the Army, Air Force and Marines exceeded their
> retention goals for 2006.
>
> So the hypotheses that nobody will volunteer anymore is rejected.
The Army had to lower the recruiting standards to meet those goals.
Just information.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 23:31:03
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote:
: On Wed, 25 2006 16:47:22 GMT, Chris Bellomy
: <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:
:
: >But if the position of
: >people like you remains that they should accept whatever
: >hopeless and/or illegal assignment the President decides
: >they should accept, nobody will volunteer anymore.
:
: The Army met its 2006 recruiting goal for the year with over three
: months to spare.
Yes, by adjusting its goals down at the order of the Defense
Secretary. Compare the raw numbers with years past.
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 21:58:53
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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On Wed, 25 2006 13:11:11 -0400, Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com >
wrote:
>The Army met its 2006 recruiting goal for the year with over three
>months to spare. The Air Force and Marines also have met their 2006
>goals. In addition, the Army, Air Force and Marines exceeded their
>retention goals for 2006.
>
>So the hypotheses that nobody will volunteer anymore is rejected.
Apparently a high percentage of fatalities are people from small
towns. People there plan on careers with the military - as there
aren't many options for careers at home. I wonder what percentage of
enlisted personnel didn't see that they had decent career
possibilities at home?
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 08:00:25
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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Tex wrote:
>
> > A soldier signs up to protect his country and do his duty by
> > following orders. The leaders should be held accountable when they
> > send troops into an area under false pretenses or when the troops are
> > underequipped for the task at hand.
>
> Which false pretenses were used for Afghanistan?
>
None. I have no problem with us being in Afghanistan. We should've
gone into Afghanistan full force and captured Bin Laden when we had the
chance. (Five bucks says he's already dead now and the US Army knows
it.)
So yes, Pat Tillman signed up and knew exactly what he was getting
into. His death by friendly fire (which the army tried to cover up) was
tragic. He was a true hero ...a guy who chose to serve his country when
he could've been making millions in the NFL, and who knew the dangers
he could be put it.
All this does not excuse the ever-increasing number of casualties that
we are incurring in Iraq, and for what? The whole Iraq thing has been
FUBAR from the start. Bush and Rumsfeld should be held accountable for
that, but you'd rather blame the dead soldiers or their grieving
families.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 07:27:43
From: Gordo
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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Tex wrote:
<Snip awesome article >
>
> Blah, blah, blah....let's give the bully pulpit to ALL brothers,
> sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, etc to all soldiers who died...not
> just the ones that speak out against....
>
> If you want change, VOTE. If you want attention, publish.
>
> Tex
While I usually stay out of political debates (due largely to Dalecki's
treatise on same) I can honestly say that information comes from a
variety of sources. Just because Pat and Kevin JOINED the military
doesn't mean that rose tinted glasses are on. He has an opinion based
on what he's seen. I put more credence to that than some knuckle
dragging idiot who resides on Pennsylvania avenue. I'm certain that
Kevin will vote his conscience the day after Pat's birthday, as will I
and the other 14% of Americans who show up at the polls.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 07:24:10
From: Tex
Subject: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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annika1980 wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> > >
> > The operative word is that both JOINED the military.
>
> Oh, then it's Ok for soliders to die in vain because their leader sent
> them into wars they can't win.
>
>
> >Second thing to note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
> > particular war.
>
> That's true. He was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan. And as his
> brother wrote, he was concerned about the fact that they could be sent
> anywhere.
He was in Afghanistan. A war/battle in which there was no question why
we should fight it.
In tact, Tillman signed up to go after 9/11. He might have been
concerned that you suck too, but that has no bearing on what he was
doing in Afghanistan.
> A soldier signs up to protect his country and do his duty by
> following orders. The leaders should be held accountable when they
> send troops into an area under false pretenses or when the troops are
> underequipped for the task at hand.
Which false pretenses were used for Afghanistan?
Back to golf shortknock.
Tex
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 16:36:33
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT Re: Words from a War Hero
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Tex <marktexkoenig@gmail.com > wrote:
: Which false pretenses were used for Afghanistan?
That we were there to win.
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 07:10:05
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Bert Robbins wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> >
> > On 24, 6:29 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> After Pat's Birthday
> >> Posted on 19, 2006
> >> By Kevin Tillman
> >>
> >> Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
> >> 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
> >> in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
> >> has written a powerful, must-read document.
> >> ---------------------------
> >
> > The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
> > note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
> > particular war.
>
> It's all the same war. What we don't hear about is what is happening in
> Afghanistan. The press only reports what fits its agenda.
that's funny - I've been reading quite a lot in the press about what's
happening in Afghanistan.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 07:08:51
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Dene wrote:
> On 24, 6:29 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com> wrote:
> > After Pat's Birthday
> > Posted on 19, 2006
> > By Kevin Tillman
> >
> > Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in
> > 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed
> > in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005,
> > has written a powerful, must-read document.
> > ---------------------------
>
> The operative word is that both JOINED the military. Second thing to
> note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
> particular war.
>
> -Greg
Few Americans understand how poorly it's going, either.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 06:08:52
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Dene wrote:
> >
> The operative word is that both JOINED the military.
Oh, then it's Ok for soliders to die in vain because their leader sent
them into wars they can't win.
>Second thing to note, Pat died in Aghanistan. Few Americans are against that
> particular war.
That's true. He was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan. And as his
brother wrote, he was concerned about the fact that they could be sent
anywhere. A soldier signs up to protect his country and do his duty by
following orders. The leaders should be held accountable when they
send troops into an area under false pretenses or when the troops are
underequipped for the task at hand.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 12:35:14
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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On 25 2006 06:08:52 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com >
wrote:
>> The operative word is that both JOINED the military.
>
>Oh, then it's Ok for soliders to die in vain because their leader sent
>them into wars they can't win.
The purpose of the war in Iraq was regime change. The war has already
accomplished its main goal.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 16:27:33
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Jack Hollis wrote:
>
> The purpose of the war in Iraq was regime change.
Ah, kinda like our mid-term elections!
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 16:25:38
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Jack Hollis wrote:
>
> The purpose of the war in Iraq was regime change. The war has already
> accomplished its main goal.
That wasn't the stated objective. But even if we accept that, we
should've left after capturing Hussein.
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Date: 25 Oct 2006 11:52:31
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Words from a War Hero
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Jack Hollis wrote:
> On 25 2006 06:08:52 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> The operative word is that both JOINED the military.
> >
> >Oh, then it's Ok for soliders to die in vain because their leader sent
> >them into wars they can't win.
>
>
> The purpose of the war in Iraq was regime change. The war has already
> accomplished its main goal.
The purpose of the war -- or the pretense under which it was started --
was regime change AND capture and destruction of SH's stockpile of
WMDs. Last I heard, we still hadn't found those.
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