Think I have felt LAG

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Date: 08 Nov 2006 14:30:26
From: Patty
Subject: Think I have felt LAG

Think I have just realised what lag actually feels like. Swinging a
Leadbetter swingsetter tonight...

I have seen it on the TGM and Lynnblake and know what it is, but never
felt it.

I'm not hitting Balls with it Yet , but it sure feels effortless and
all in sync.

Feels like I'm over cocking the wrists on the back swing to get that
club really hanging back as I turn my hips and get my arms down.

It also feels like the ball could go anywhere and although I have not
hit balls with this feeling yet quite worried. I'm certainly using
centrifugal force here..

This loss of control feeling. Is it normal...

thanks
Patty

Date: 08 Nov 2006 21:53:32
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Patty wrote:
> Think I have just realised what lag actually feels like. Swinging a
> Leadbetter swingsetter tonight...
>
> I have seen it on the TGM and Lynnblake and know what it is, but never
> felt it.
>
> I'm not hitting Balls with it Yet , but it sure feels effortless and
> all in sync.
>
> Feels like I'm over cocking the wrists on the back swing to get that
> club really hanging back as I turn my hips and get my arms down.
>
> It also feels like the ball could go anywhere and although I have not
> hit balls with this feeling yet quite worried. I'm certainly using
> centrifugal force here..
>
>
> This loss of control feeling. Is it normal...

In my slow, treacherous plodding I've called Progress, I've found that
you can make an effective lag by letting the club fling around like
that. If your timing is good, it will work fine. The inertia of the
club is very substantial, and if you keep your hands from manipulating
it you'll find your ball striking will actually get better and so will
your shot direction. Crazy as it sounds, Newton is more consistent than
anybody's hands. But for me this feeling in my swing has been a passing
slice of heaven that doesn't last long.
On the other hand, I feel I've been more successful on a day-to-day
basis where I use a similar swing, but apply a very gentle pressure into
the grip on the downswing. Not enough to alter my timing or push off
the lag, but just enough to put a little stability in the
hands/arms/club. The key for me is to keep it a very light pressure
down the target line. There is the tendency to continually increase
pressure from one swing to the next, or increase the swing tempo. Both
will destroy the swing, so keep your cool.

Dave

Date: 08 Nov 2006 18:17:43
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"Patty" <simplycisco@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163025026.054857.184090@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Think I have just realised what lag actually feels like. Swinging a
> Leadbetter swingsetter tonight...
>
> I have seen it on the TGM and Lynnblake and know what it is, but never
> felt it.
>
> I'm not hitting Balls with it Yet , but it sure feels effortless and
> all in sync.
>
> Feels like I'm over cocking the wrists on the back swing to get that
> club really hanging back as I turn my hips and get my arms down.
>
> It also feels like the ball could go anywhere and although I have not
> hit balls with this feeling yet quite worried. I'm certainly using
> centrifugal force here..
>
>
> This loss of control feeling. Is it normal...
>
>
> thanks
> Patty
>

Lag: The difference between the time the hands pass a point and the clubhead
passes the same point. Preferably the hands first, the clubhead second.

Centrifugal force doesn't exist. There's centrifugal tendency, centrifugal
acceleration and velocity but no centrifugal force. Sorry. Perhaps you mean
centripetal force.

Centripetal: Towards the center.

The club wants to go straight, you prevent that by holding it with your
hands as you swing it around yourself.

You apply centripetal force.

Gravity is a form of centripetal force.

A little exercise.

Think of three points, the shoulders, the hands, the clubhead. Think of
moving the hands around the shoulders. As you move the hands around the
shoulders, the clubhead has no choice but to follow. The faster you move the
hands around the shoulders, the faster the clubhead will move subsequently.
The goal is to time it right so that the hands pass the point of impact just
before the clubhead does.

If you've ever read something that says you must accelerate the hands
through impact, well it applies here but it's not required. Gravity can have
a similar effect on the hands.

All this is great but it does nothing for accuracy. Anyway, once you have
learned how to swing a club, you can then forget about it and focus on
striking a golf ball to send it to a target using that club. Then, you can
play golf.

What kind of loss of control do you speak of? How does it feel? Does your
swing feel loose? Does it feel like the club is going too fast? Does it feel
like you're losing your grip on the club? Please explain.

Another exercise.

Swing a stick, club or that swingsetter thingy. Focus on the end of the
stick. Move it in a smooth arc around your head back and forth. Now,
visualise that arc and align it with the target line. Then, when you swing a
club to strike a ball, do the same thing, align that arc with the target
line.

Another exercise.

Apply force downward only, do not resist what the club will do.
Apply force forward only, do not resist what the club will do.
Apply force upward only, do not resist what the club will do.

In the first instance, downward, you will feel like the club wants to jump
forward. That's normal, it's a result of that centrifugal acceleration and
velocity I mentioned. The club wants to go straight but since you are
holding it with your hands, it will go around you.

In the second instance, forward, the club will want to go upwards for the
same reasons as the first.

In the third instance, upward, the club will want to go backwards.

In other words for all three instances, the force you apply will be
transformed in momentum (speed) after you apply it, not immediately.

Martin Levac

Date: 09 Nov 2006 03:49:21
From: Patty
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Yes you are correct it is Centripetal force...! I've learnt something
new..

The loss of control I think comes from not actively using the hands.

i.e To hammer a Nail into a piece of wood I would actively use my
hands, Wrists arms etc.

With the Centripetal force thingy I am now using the lag and hopefully
the hammer will be right on line to hit the nail into the wood.

This is what I mean by loss of control. As I'm now using my body to
control the path and Speed of the Club. I am worried about that the
ball could go anywhere. I'm sure the physics of all this is probably
giving me a straighter line than using my arms, hands. But it's wierd.

Using my hands I'm pretty sure it will go out front either straight,
Hook, Slice. But I'll probably hit it.

I think I just need to get some confidence of hitting balls this way
instead of trying to muscle with my arms.

Thanks for the tips

Patty,

Date: 09 Nov 2006 10:20:34
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

On 9 Nov 2006 03:49:21 -0800, "Patty" <simplycisco@hotmail.com > wrote:

>Yes you are correct it is Centripetal force...! I've learnt something
>new..

Even though I have a B.S. in physics, I don't think that thinking of a
force moving towards the center of our swing is useful - but feeling a
"force" pulling the club away from the center is useful.

Modifying that image with the knowledge that what you're really
feeling is the inertia of the club wanting to go straight might be
useful, but I'm not so sure about this.

The main disadvantage to the term "Centrifugal force" is that every
time we use the term we need to have an *, saying that we know it
doesn't really exist...

Date: 09 Nov 2006 08:56:54
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Patty wrote:
> Yes you are correct it is Centripetal force...! I've learnt something
> new..
>
>
> The loss of control I think comes from not actively using the hands.
>
> i.e To hammer a Nail into a piece of wood I would actively use my
> hands, Wrists arms etc.
>
> With the Centripetal force thingy I am now using the lag and hopefully
> the hammer will be right on line to hit the nail into the wood.
>
> This is what I mean by loss of control. As I'm now using my body to
> control the path and Speed of the Club. I am worried about that the
> ball could go anywhere. I'm sure the physics of all this is probably
> giving me a straighter line than using my arms, hands. But it's wierd.

But Patty, this is exactly what will eventually produce a much more
repeatable swing.

The fewer parts you have to actively control, the better. Further, it
is easier to do such a repetitive swing with the big muscles of the
torso only, than it is to coordinate the big muscles with the small
muscles of the hands.

As you'll find out as you pursue this, the fewer things there are to
coordinate, the easier it is to produce a repetitive swing.

A buddy of mine--very high handicap, btw--has the worst chipping motion
in the world. He lets his wrists hinge, while at the same time he uses
his body. He has to coordinate both those things. Sometimes he's good
at it, and he hits an acceptable chip. But I'll tell you this: If I
were to bet on any particular chip, I'd bet he's much more likely to
skull it way past the hole, or hit fat behind the ball, stubbing the chip.

When I'm doing a big swing, there are two things central in my
thinking--and they're not swing thoughts necessarily, just two things
I'm trying to accomplish. The first is to "stay within myself." To me
(and this is just my way of thinking, not something anyone else would
necessarily subscribe to), this means to keep my swing "tight," to not
be wiggling or swaying or throwing my arms. Just keep things tight, get
a good turn, and then let the lag proceed to provide power to the ball.

If you want a little practice thing, try hitting little 30 and 40-yard
shots with a lot of lag. Keep a lot of lag until your hands reach the
ball, then let the clubhead catch up. Just little shots. It's easy to
feel the lag when you do that. Then you can try hitting a bit further,
and a bit further, working to maintain that.

It is amazing how far you can hit a ball with a little quarter-swing
motion and lots of lag.

(Sunday: 99 yards to the pin--lasered--and I'm trying to do club
selection. Slightly downhill. So I'm thinking, sand wedge might be too
much here. So I pull my 60-degree wedge, play the ball back in my
stance a bit, and focus on having really good lag. I'm thinking if I
hit it perfectly, it'll end up just short and probably bounce up to the
flag. And if it's shorter yet, it'll still bounce onto the green.

I flew the pin, landing 2 feet past it. Unfortunately the greens were
hard, so a great shot didn't turn out so great, and I missed the 15-foot
birdie putt.

I can't believe I could hit a 60-degree wedge 99 yards. But you know
what did it? Lag.)

Mike

PS: Try the less-full-swing shots a bit, and see if you can't feel
this. Take your arms back only halfway--for goodness sakes, don't do a
full backswing and then try to slow down into the ball--and then just
smoothly go through the ball. I think you'll be very surprised.

>
> Using my hands I'm pretty sure it will go out front either straight,
> Hook, Slice. But I'll probably hit it.
>
> I think I just need to get some confidence of hitting balls this way
> instead of trying to muscle with my arms.
>
> Thanks for the tips
>
> Patty,
>

Date: 09 Nov 2006 09:56:50
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"Patty" <simplycisco@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163072961.391881.247310@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Yes you are correct it is Centripetal force...! I've learnt something
> new..
>
>
> The loss of control I think comes from not actively using the hands.
>
> i.e To hammer a Nail into a piece of wood I would actively use my
> hands, Wrists arms etc.
>
> With the Centripetal force thingy I am now using the lag and hopefully
> the hammer will be right on line to hit the nail into the wood.
>
> This is what I mean by loss of control. As I'm now using my body to
> control the path and Speed of the Club. I am worried about that the
> ball could go anywhere. I'm sure the physics of all this is probably
> giving me a straighter line than using my arms, hands. But it's wierd.
>
> Using my hands I'm pretty sure it will go out front either straight,
> Hook, Slice. But I'll probably hit it.
>
> I think I just need to get some confidence of hitting balls this way
> instead of trying to muscle with my arms.
>
> Thanks for the tips
>
> Patty,
>

Control requires concious thought, the club has none. I control the club. I
control the club with my hands, there's no other part of my body that
touches the club anyway. There is not only one way to control the club.

I can pull it, push it, twist it, leverage it. In fact, I do all that as I
swing it to strike the ball. If I didn't, I'd have a hard time striking the
ball at all.

I control the club to put it in position at address. I control the club to
put it in position at the top on the backswing. I control the club as I
swing it on the downswing to strike the ball. I control the club as I slow
it down after impact on the follow through.

I control the club at all times with my hands, arms, shoulder, hips, legs,
feet, etc.

If any part of my body is passive, other parts of my body must take over
that part's job. That makes it difficult to be accurate because it's more
complicated. For example, my hands are passive, my elbows must take over to
simulate what my hands usually do. My hands and elbows are passive, my
shoulders must take over to simulate what the hands and elbows usually do.
My hands, elbows and shoulders are passive, my torso, hips, legs, feet must
take over to simulate what those body parts usually do. That's very
complicated.

If I let any part of my body be passive, it will be that much more work for
the other parts that take over. That's just too complicated for me, I prefer
to simply control the club as I want to with every part of my body,
especially the hands, arms and shoulders.

Follow this link:

http://www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/

Martin Levac

Date: 09 Nov 2006 10:21:48
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:56:50 -0500, "Martin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:

>Control requires concious thought, the club has none.

There are lots of examples in life of that word used otherwise.

Date: 09 Nov 2006 17:11:24
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Date: 09 Nov 2006 16:27:38
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Patty wrote:
> thanks for all the replies, these have been very helpful,
>
> knightT
>
> can you explain in beginners simple terms what
>
> lag pressure point
>
> is ?
>
> thanks patty

Sorry for the double post, but there was one more thing I wanted to
say. If you are registered at LynnBlakeGolf.com go to the Gallery and
get the video called "Hogan home movie." Besides the amazing slow
motion swings he makes, pay attention to the end when he shows his
grip.

He shows the 2 pressure points that contact the grip. Notice how he
takes his thumbs and forefingers off the club. If you have his book '5
lessons' he says to practice swinging with the right thumb and
forefinger off the shaft. This is the best way to feel the clubhead
lag pressure point. Hit balls like that for practice.

This is the master himself showing you how he holds the golf club. I
love it when he finishes showing how he places his hands on the club
and has the grip fully assembled....he can't help himself from swinging
that driver and you can hear that deep 'swoosh....swoosh.'

Date: 09 Nov 2006 15:52:23
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Patty wrote:
> thanks for all the replies, these have been very helpful,
>
> knightT
>
> can you explain in beginners simple terms what
>
> lag pressure point
>
> is ?
>
> thanks patty

There are 4 pressure points in the golf swing. Each pressure point has
a power accumulator associated with it. The power accumulators move
the pressure points. The pressure points move the golf club (or the
lever assembly).

Here are the pressure points (Straight from the book):
6-C-1
1)The heel of the right hand where it touches either the left hand
thumb or the clubshaft (as required by the grip used).
2)The last three fingers of the left hand
3)The first joint of the right hand index finger where it touches the
clubshaft.
4)Wherever the straight left arm contacts the left side

The power accumulators associated with each pressure point (each number
correlating to each item above):
1)The bent right arm
2)The cocking and uncocking of the left wrist (ONLY the left wrist
cocks.....not the right) - this is the true velocity accumulator
3)The angle established by the left forearm and clubshaft - known as
left wrist turn and roll. (this is only present when the butt of the
left hand is on top of the shaft. If you hold the club with the cup of
your left hand on the front of the shaft...like a putting grip, there
is a straight line from your left shoulder to the clubhead) - this is
transfer power
4)The angle formed by the left arm and left shoulder - the master
accumulator

So power accumulator #1 moves pressure point #1, which moves the golf
club. Using different combinations of power accumulators is referred
to as an X barrel swing. So 1 power accumulator is a single barrel
swing. 2 power accumulators is a double barrel swing, and so on.

So, in TGM speak, you will hear pressure point #3 alot. This is all
that is being referred to. Just the numbers in the list above.

In terms of clubhead lag, any of the 4 can be your clubhead lag
pressure point (or any combination of the 4). However, Pressure point
#3....the first joint of the right forefinger, which SHOULD be located
behind the shaft (just like your left thumb) to support impact is
commonly referred to as THE clubhead lag pressure point. Yoda quotes
Homer Kelley all the time as saying "Pressure point #3 and your right
forearm, you'll want to insure them for a million bucks." This
particular point gives great feel of the clubhead. It is important to
understand that lag is always thrusting and aiming to a specific point
down plane (in front of the ball)

In TGM we are focused on alignments and loading....not positions.
Patty, are you hitting or swinging ? It is important to know which you
are doing. Both load the lag differently. Hitters load everything to
pressure point #3 (right forefinger) and the right forearm, then they
simply thrust it all down like a boxer throwing a punch. Swingers load
pressure point #2 (the left wrist) and rely on a throw out action to
square the clubface. The major difference is how the club is
accelerated. Hitters use pressure points #3 and #1 to 'drive' the
entire length of the club (the radius), just like swinging a big axe to
chop down a tree. Swingers use pressure points #2 and #4 to 'drag' or
pull the club 'longitudinally'...exactly like a rope handle. I may be
wrong, but it seems most instruction and tips are based on swinging.

I spent alot of time thinking that I was swinging, but one day realized
I was trying to "hit the ball hard." So I was really just confused
because only hitters use muscular force to move the pressure points.
So I spent some time hitting because it was pretty simple. Then I
started to 'find' swinging....or it found me. That happened while just
playing around with my right arm only on the club from the end of the
backswing. I just gave it a little bump and let gravity pull it down.
There was no effort, and the club ended up over my left shoulder with a
cool 'swoosh' along the way. Now I can swing and make solid contact
using full swings with only my right arm (I find it easiest with my 7
iron).

Patty, If I lost you at all I'm sorry, but please ask any questions
necessary. This stuff is easy, if I can understand it....then you can
understand it.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 09:13:57
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1163116343.126955.20070@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Patty wrote:
>> thanks for all the replies, these have been very helpful,
>>
>> knightT
>>
>> can you explain in beginners simple terms what
>>
>> lag pressure point
>>
>> is ?
>>
>> thanks patty
>
> There are 4 pressure points in the golf swing. Each pressure point has
> a power accumulator associated with it. The power accumulators move
> the pressure points. The pressure points move the golf club (or the
> lever assembly).
>
> Here are the pressure points (Straight from the book):
> 6-C-1
> 1)The heel of the right hand where it touches either the left hand
> thumb or the clubshaft (as required by the grip used).
> 2)The last three fingers of the left hand
> 3)The first joint of the right hand index finger where it touches the
> clubshaft.
> 4)Wherever the straight left arm contacts the left side
>
> The power accumulators associated with each pressure point (each number
> correlating to each item above):
> 1)The bent right arm
> 2)The cocking and uncocking of the left wrist (ONLY the left wrist
> cocks.....not the right) - this is the true velocity accumulator
> 3)The angle established by the left forearm and clubshaft - known as
> left wrist turn and roll. (this is only present when the butt of the
> left hand is on top of the shaft. If you hold the club with the cup of
> your left hand on the front of the shaft...like a putting grip, there
> is a straight line from your left shoulder to the clubhead) - this is
> transfer power
> 4)The angle formed by the left arm and left shoulder - the master
> accumulator
>
> So power accumulator #1 moves pressure point #1, which moves the golf
> club. Using different combinations of power accumulators is referred
> to as an X barrel swing. So 1 power accumulator is a single barrel
> swing. 2 power accumulators is a double barrel swing, and so on.
>
> So, in TGM speak, you will hear pressure point #3 alot. This is all
> that is being referred to. Just the numbers in the list above.
>
> In terms of clubhead lag, any of the 4 can be your clubhead lag
> pressure point (or any combination of the 4). However, Pressure point
> #3....the first joint of the right forefinger, which SHOULD be located
> behind the shaft (just like your left thumb) to support impact is
> commonly referred to as THE clubhead lag pressure point. Yoda quotes
> Homer Kelley all the time as saying "Pressure point #3 and your right
> forearm, you'll want to insure them for a million bucks." This
> particular point gives great feel of the clubhead. It is important to
> understand that lag is always thrusting and aiming to a specific point
> down plane (in front of the ball)
>
> In TGM we are focused on alignments and loading....not positions.
> Patty, are you hitting or swinging ? It is important to know which you
> are doing. Both load the lag differently. Hitters load everything to
> pressure point #3 (right forefinger) and the right forearm, then they
> simply thrust it all down like a boxer throwing a punch. Swingers load
> pressure point #2 (the left wrist) and rely on a throw out action to
> square the clubface. The major difference is how the club is
> accelerated. Hitters use pressure points #3 and #1 to 'drive' the
> entire length of the club (the radius), just like swinging a big axe to
> chop down a tree. Swingers use pressure points #2 and #4 to 'drag' or
> pull the club 'longitudinally'...exactly like a rope handle. I may be
> wrong, but it seems most instruction and tips are based on swinging.
>
> I spent alot of time thinking that I was swinging, but one day realized
> I was trying to "hit the ball hard." So I was really just confused
> because only hitters use muscular force to move the pressure points.
> So I spent some time hitting because it was pretty simple. Then I
> started to 'find' swinging....or it found me. That happened while just
> playing around with my right arm only on the club from the end of the
> backswing. I just gave it a little bump and let gravity pull it down.
> There was no effort, and the club ended up over my left shoulder with a
> cool 'swoosh' along the way. Now I can swing and make solid contact
> using full swings with only my right arm (I find it easiest with my 7
> iron).
>
> Patty, If I lost you at all I'm sorry, but please ask any questions
> necessary. This stuff is easy, if I can understand it....then you can
> understand it.
>

You make a great point which might be clearer said in another way. When we
CONSCIOUSLY APPLY A FORCE with something, it often turns out later that we
OVERDID THAT PARTICULAR exertion at the expense of the harmony and
workability of the whole thing. ALL of the points in contact with each
other that apply any force in the downward/forward swing DO exert some
degree of pressure. As soon as we consciously apply one (which we MUST do
in drills to come to understand their function), in retrospect wi'll
probably find that we did TOO MUCH of that one for a workable whole swing.

So there is a subtlety in discovering first what each of these things is,
AND THEN FORGETTING ABOUT THEM like a child forgets how he rebalanced his
bike: he just RIDES it and with the most subtle of unconscious adjustments
he rights it and keeps it in balance.

So after you do grasp the individual key parts, there is great need for
FORGETTING ABOUT THEM AS CONSCIOUSLY APPLIED EXERTIIONS and just simply
"swinging the club mindlessly". All instruction through the centuries
that has lasted has emphasized the need for simplicity -- which I call
mindlessness.

John Daly and Colin Montgomerie are examples of this kind of trust and
abandon. Devil take the hindmost. They have learned where to put
themSELVES relative to the ball on the ground so that when they DO swing
that stupid club MINDLESSLY it HAPPENS TO GO THROUGH THE BALL PLACE in the
right direction, etc.

So do not SEEK OUT THE BALL when you swing. AFTER you swing, adjust where
YOU are to make better contact the next time. But try to do that with your
MINDLESS SWING, not with steering or "holding on" or anything that
interferes with the purity of motion that you see like when a tire swings
back and forth hanging from a rope.

MOVE THE TREE.

I hope this isn't too obscure...but it is at the core of what great golf
must eventually become. There simply is no way to think the club to the
ball successfully.

George Hibbard
www.perfectimpact.com

Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:15:58
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

George Hibbard wrote:
> You make a great point which might be clearer said in another way. When we
> CONSCIOUSLY APPLY A FORCE with something, it often turns out later that we
> OVERDID THAT PARTICULAR exertion at the expense of the harmony and
> workability of the whole thing. ALL of the points in contact with each
> other that apply any force in the downward/forward swing DO exert some
> degree of pressure. As soon as we consciously apply one (which we MUST do
> in drills to come to understand their function), in retrospect wi'll
> probably find that we did TOO MUCH of that one for a workable whole swing.
>
>
> George Hibbard
> www.perfectimpact.com
>

Egad, here's a scary thought ... George trying to clarify someone else's
post. George ... yelling doesn't make things clearer ... it's kinda'
like the guy who thinks speaking English LOUDER will make it easier for
the Spanish-speaking person to understand 8^).

But all kidding aside ... it's a good point that you can easily overdo a
particular movement. As Harvey Penick said, "If I tell you to take an
aspirin, don't swallow the whole bottle". I think this is one of the
main reasons that swing thoughts don't last ... you get so focused on
one specific movement that you overdo it and screw up some other part of
the swing.

Rob

Date: 09 Nov 2006 12:35:00
From: Patty
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

thanks for all the replies, these have been very helpful,

knightT

can you explain in beginners simple terms what

lag pressure point

is ?

thanks patty

Date: 09 Nov 2006 12:17:00
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Everybody has given great responses and I enjoyed reading each one.

This is more for Patty, since you other guys are already aware of it.
Remember that feeling a lagging clubhead is 1/3 of the golf stroke.
This is giving you control/feel of the clubhead. Combine this with
control of the clubface and the clubshaft and you control the golf
club.

This is hinge action (clubface/flat left wrist) of an angular motion
(clubhead/lag pressure point) operating on an inclined plane
(clubshaft/straight plane line). This is precision and power. They do
go together.

When I first discovered lag I gained a quick 15-20 yards with every
club. Now I can apply different lag pressure to the same length swing.
From chip to full swing. Also, your 'normal' lag pressure will move
heavy clubs slower, and lighter clubs faster. Very noticably going
from my 9 iron to 7 iron.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 10:58:30
From: Ersatz
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

George Hibbard wrote:

> John Daly and Colin Montgomerie are examples of this kind of trust and
> abandon. Devil take the hindmost. They have learned where to put
> themSELVES relative to the ball on the ground so that when they DO swing
> that stupid club MINDLESSLY it HAPPENS TO GO THROUGH THE BALL PLACE in the
> right direction, etc.
>
> So do not SEEK OUT THE BALL when you swing. AFTER you swing, adjust where
> YOU are to make better contact the next time. But try to do that with your
> MINDLESS SWING, not with steering or "holding on" or anything that
> interferes with the purity of motion that you see like when a tire swings
> back and forth hanging from a rope.
>
> MOVE THE TREE.
>
> I hope this isn't too obscure...but it is at the core of what great golf
> must eventually become. There simply is no way to think the club to the
> ball successfully.
>
> George Hibbard
> www.perfectimpact.com

Good post George, I am going through the phase of taking the range
swing (mats) to the course. Swinging through the ball, in my case, does
not work on the course. One or two bad contacts make me concentrate on
hitting the ball correctly, thus ruining the fluidity of the swing.
At this time of year pick and place operates therefore bad lies are not
an excuse.
I have decided on two options:
1.Find a pro who teaches, or is prepared to teach, on grass.
2. Having bought the TGM book, self teach on a football field I have
available locally.
Rog

Date: 10 Nov 2006 19:24:14
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Ersatz wrote:
> George Hibbard wrote:
>
>>So do not SEEK OUT THE BALL when you swing. AFTER you swing, adjust where
>>YOU are to make better contact the next time. But try to do that with your
>>MINDLESS SWING, not with steering or "holding on" or anything that
>>interferes with the purity of motion that you see like when a tire swings
>>back and forth hanging from a rope.
>>
>>MOVE THE TREE.
>>
> Good post George, I am going through the phase of taking the range
> swing (mats) to the course. Swinging through the ball, in my case, does
> not work on the course. One or two bad contacts make me concentrate on
> hitting the ball correctly, thus ruining the fluidity of the swing.
> At this time of year pick and place operates therefore bad lies are not
> an excuse.
> I have decided on two options:
> 1.Find a pro who teaches, or is prepared to teach, on grass.
> 2. Having bought the TGM book, self teach on a football field I have
> available locally.
> Rog
>

FWIW, I don't believe that mats are necessarily the problem in taking a
swing from the range to the course. It's more a matter of confidence,
relaxation and trust (and the fact that you hit multiple shots with the
same club from the exact same lie on the range ... but that's a
different discussion).

I practice mostly on mats and find them to be OK ... in fact the
occasional times I practice off of "grass" (and I use the term loosely)
can be problematic because the grass ranges I've seen are nothing like
the turf on the course (very sandy and require much more exact contact
than a good fairway lie). The one thing to watch for on mats is that
"fat" shots can still be good ... you need to recognize that (you can
feel it pretty easily) and try to practice for precise contact. YMMV.

Rob

Date: 10 Nov 2006 07:42:19
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

In those vids I think Tom Tomasello is showing a right arm swinging
procedure. He has another video where he spends 20 minutes showing the
difference between hitting and swinging. I think he is showing a start
up swivel by turning and flattening the left wrist while simultaneously
bending the right wrist. Then he bends his right arm which cocks the
left wrist.

Watch the 3 videos on the address routine. Yoda gets 2 professionals
who are Authorized instructors; 1 hitter and 1 swinger.

Homer suggests to learn swinging, then hitting. I think because the
swinger uses throw out action to automatically create impact
alignments. Hitters must manually produce every alignment.

At first The Golfing Machine can be overwhelming. After you learn the
basic terminology it is easier to read, yet still easy to get lost.
You need to focus on the most general ideas. Like the machine concept.
Control the 3 parts of the club with machine precision (these are
mechanics) every time and you hit a perfect shot every time. Learn the
correct feel from the correct mechanics.

You made the first step in getting the book, which shows you are
interested in the truth behind the golf swing. Next step is
understanding and applying it to your swing. You can do it.

Patty, I would suggest you focus on the preface. Find the part where
Homer explains the star system. Just try and understand the star
system triad. This is very basic, and very important. It ties in with
the 3 functions of the club. This is the reason for the 3 imperatives.
That is what the 3 imperatives do, and why that are so important. You
can apply this system to any length swing. It is best to apply this to
the basic, acquired, and total motion from chapter 12. Focus on that.
Don't worry about everything else. This is the core of The Golfing
Machine, in my opinion. Yoda said, once you get the 3 imperatives the
rest of the book is like Dorothy waking up in the Land of Oz: "Todo,
we're not in Kansas anymore." Everything changes for the better when
you have a firm grasp on them. Think about this: Homer Kelley spent 28
years on this book. He is telling us that there are 3 things that are
IMPERATIVE, absolutely essential to every golf swing. You don't get
that anywhere else. Also, do not ignore the importance of Basic Motion
in chapter 12. You can learn more from small chip shots than you can
by blasting your driver. I know I have. I have not hit my driver in
over 6 months (I use my 3 wood on the course).

Patty wrote:
> Many thanks for the information.
>
> I'm definately a hitter... Would like to swing..
>
> You say it's easy this TGM stuff. I am struggling with the
> introduction.
>
> And it's not one thing it's lots.
>
> I have been on Lynnblake and looked at the Tom Tomasello videos. very
> interesting.
>
>
> I'm puzzled about how Tom descibes the takeaway as a quick Wrist turn
> then bring the club straight up. This is not what I have been told.
> It's usually keep the face looking at the ball till Almost Half way.
>
> Obviously the different methods from different teachers screws me up.
>
> thanks for the tips.
>
> Patty

Date: 10 Nov 2006 07:26:31
From: Patty
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

>>>The back of your left hand
>>>will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped

This again get's contradicted from person to person and causes me big
problems. Should it be cupped or should it not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0

If you see the above Gray Player Talking about Ben Hogan (my Favorite)
and Tiger woods.

He say's you SHOULD have a cupped wrist or advises on it,,, and points
at Tigers so called Flaw's in his swing.

This is crazy!!!!

thanks for the post George anyway.

Thanks
Patty

Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:32:04
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Patty wrote:
>
> This again get's contradicted from person to person and causes me big
> problems. Should it be cupped or should it not.
>
> He say's you SHOULD have a cupped wrist or advises on it,,, and points
> at Tigers so called Flaw's in his swing.
>
> This is crazy!!!!
>
> Patty
>

Welcome to the wonderful world of golf 8^). One of the things that you
quickly find is that the "experts" don't always agree about what is
"correct". And they're always coming up with new theories and teaching
methods ... otherwise, how would they make any money 8^). Part of the
answer is that all parts of the swing are connected, so a specific
position depends on what came before and what you do after. Player was
specific in the video about a connection between a flatter swing plane
and a cupped wrist (although it's still only his opinion and not gospel).

My approach is to not worry *too* much about the details, especially
unless you consider them in the context of the whole swing. For most
details there's an acceptable range of movements/positions, and as long
as you're in the range you're probably OK. So either a flat left wrist
or a slight cup can be acceptable ... just as ball position is not an
absolute and depends on the rest of your swing.

And, as always, you're probably better off getting advice from a pro who
can view your swing as a whole, rather than off the internet (although
it's still fun to discuss these things and learn about the golf swing).

Rob

Date: 10 Nov 2006 01:31:44
From: Patty
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Many thanks for the information.

I'm definately a hitter... Would like to swing..

You say it's easy this TGM stuff. I am struggling with the
introduction.

And it's not one thing it's lots.

I have been on Lynnblake and looked at the Tom Tomasello videos. very
interesting.

I'm puzzled about how Tom descibes the takeaway as a quick Wrist turn
then bring the club straight up. This is not what I have been told.
It's usually keep the face looking at the ball till Almost Half way.

Obviously the different methods from different teachers screws me up.

thanks for the tips.

Patty

Date: 10 Nov 2006 09:31:17
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this way:
IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT IS EXACTLY
WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of your left hand
will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got THAT
I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get there.
Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.

Seek to find the position yourself up there that gives you a headstart
FEELING of BOY, I CAN WALLOP THE BALL FROM HERE! THAT PLACE is THE MOST
CRITICAL POSITION of all, which is, of course, preprogrammed by your setup
and what is in your mind as you prepare TO swing back. Try to envision the
act of where you'll be as you are coming down to strike the ball, and make
your backswing take you to where you CAN do just that. "Plan ahead"...

Good luck in your search. IGNORE INSTRUCTION that is confusing. Much of it
is NOT generic but applicable to some particular that simply is not
appropriate for you.

"Patty" <simplycisco@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163151104.008048.250340@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Many thanks for the information.
>
> I'm definately a hitter... Would like to swing..
>
> You say it's easy this TGM stuff. I am struggling with the
> introduction.
>
> And it's not one thing it's lots.
>
> I have been on Lynnblake and looked at the Tom Tomasello videos. very
> interesting.
>
>
> I'm puzzled about how Tom descibes the takeaway as a quick Wrist turn
> then bring the club straight up. This is not what I have been told.
> It's usually keep the face looking at the ball till Almost Half way.
>
> Obviously the different methods from different teachers screws me up.
>
> thanks for the tips.
>
> Patty
>

Date: 10 Nov 2006 08:24:33
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:R205h.17395$GE1.11189@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this way:
> IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT IS
> EXACTLY WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of your
> left hand
> will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got
> THAT I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get there.
> Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.

Well George, thats in opposition to your own book.
In your infamous publication, " Perfect Impact", on page 16, Photo # 7. you
say that there is a natural disch angle "cup" between the wrist and hands.
You say that the natural angle is about 135*. You state that this natural
dish angle ( cup) is to be *maintained throughout the swing*.
You've evn got a picture to show the dramatic cupping that you want the
reader to have *throughout the swing*.
You also discuss this cupping/angle on page 13, where you title the
discussion IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR--where you further discuss maintaining
this cupping * throughout the swing*.

Have you become a TGM convert and ditched your PI Books and Academy?

Date: 10 Nov 2006 16:26:21
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:455499b4$0$10302$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:R205h.17395$GE1.11189@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this
>> way: IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT IS
>> EXACTLY WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of your
>> left hand
>> will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got
>> THAT I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get there.
>> Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.
>
> Well George, thats in opposition to your own book.
> In your infamous publication, " Perfect Impact", on page 16, Photo # 7.
> you say that there is a natural disch angle "cup" between the wrist and
> hands. You say that the natural angle is about 135*. You state that this
> natural dish angle ( cup) is to be *maintained throughout the swing*.
> You've evn got a picture to show the dramatic cupping that you want the
> reader to have *throughout the swing*.
> You also discuss this cupping/angle on page 13, where you title the
> discussion IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR--where you further discuss maintaining
> this cupping * throughout the swing*.
>
> Have you become a TGM convert and ditched your PI Books and Academy?

A dish angle is not a cup: it is a slight angle, and when I have time to
post in detail I will explain why. I do NOT favor a FLAT left wrist:
"kinda" -- more later.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 15:35:25
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:Z765h.9871$TX.5554@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:455499b4$0$10302$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>> news:R205h.17395$GE1.11189@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>> Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this
>>> way: IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT
>>> IS EXACTLY WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of
>>> your left hand
>>> will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got
>>> THAT I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get
>>> there. Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.
>>
>> Well George, thats in opposition to your own book.
>> In your infamous publication, " Perfect Impact", on page 16, Photo # 7.
>> you say that there is a natural disch angle "cup" between the wrist and
>> hands. You say that the natural angle is about 135*. You state that this
>> natural dish angle ( cup) is to be *maintained throughout the swing*.
>> You've evn got a picture to show the dramatic cupping that you want the
>> reader to have *throughout the swing*.
>> You also discuss this cupping/angle on page 13, where you title the
>> discussion IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR--where you further discuss maintaining
>> this cupping * throughout the swing*.
>>
>> Have you become a TGM convert and ditched your PI Books and Academy?
>
>
> A dish angle is not a cup: it is a slight angle, and when I have time to
> post in detail I will explain why. I do NOT favor a FLAT left wrist:
> "kinda" -- more later.

135* per your book.
You need to explain 45*, the difference between FLAT ( 90*) and 135*.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:37:44
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:4554feb0$0$3578$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:Z765h.9871$TX.5554@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>> news:455499b4$0$10302$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>>
>>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>>> news:R205h.17395$GE1.11189@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>>> Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this
>>>> way: IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT
>>>> IS EXACTLY WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of
>>>> your left hand
>>>> will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got
>>>> THAT I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get
>>>> there. Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.
>>>
>>> Well George, thats in opposition to your own book.
>>> In your infamous publication, " Perfect Impact", on page 16, Photo # 7.
>>> you say that there is a natural disch angle "cup" between the wrist and
>>> hands. You say that the natural angle is about 135*. You state that this
>>> natural dish angle ( cup) is to be *maintained throughout the swing*.
>>> You've evn got a picture to show the dramatic cupping that you want the
>>> reader to have *throughout the swing*.
>>> You also discuss this cupping/angle on page 13, where you title the
>>> discussion IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR--where you further discuss maintaining
>>> this cupping * throughout the swing*.
>>>
>>> Have you become a TGM convert and ditched your PI Books and Academy?
>>
>>
>> A dish angle is not a cup: it is a slight angle, and when I have time to
>> post in detail I will explain why. I do NOT favor a FLAT left wrist:
>> "kinda" -- more later.
>
> 135* per your book.
> You need to explain 45*, the difference between FLAT ( 90*) and 135*.

Flat is not 90, in case you missed geometry--flat is 180, last time I
checked. But regarding whether it is as little as 135 or more like 150 ( I
have come to realize 135 is too cupped so I guess your ciriticism is
valid --135 is TOO much cup), I prefer the word "slight" to describe it..
Since the book I have refined the what and the why, so see the explanation
in the new post and rather than use a protractor to measure YOURS, depending
on your hand and the size of your grips, follow the logic explained there.
Simply put the grip under the heel pad and midway between the extended plane
of the edges of your forearm. There will be a bend there.

>

Date: 10 Nov 2006 17:26:21
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:8385h.20186$lY5.1568@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> But regarding whether it is as little as 135 or more like 150 ( I have
> come to realize 135 is too cupped so I guess your ciriticism is
> valid --135 is TOO much cup), I prefer the word "slight" to describe it..
> Since the book I have refined the what and the why, so see the explanation
> in the new post and rather than use a protractor to measure YOURS,
> depending on your hand and the size of your grips, follow the logic
> explained there. Simply put the grip under the heel pad and midway between
> the extended plane of the edges of your forearm. There will be a bend
> there.

2 questions if you believe there is a bend there.
1) Then why did you say it should be FLAT in your 1st post to this
thread?
2) Do you still believe that the natural dish angle set at address is
maintained throughout the swing? If so, please see question #1 a second
time.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 20:31:54
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:455518b0$0$10296$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:8385h.20186$lY5.1568@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>> But regarding whether it is as little as 135 or more like 150 ( I have
>> come to realize 135 is too cupped so I guess your ciriticism is
>> valid --135 is TOO much cup), I prefer the word "slight" to describe it..
>> Since the book I have refined the what and the why, so see the
>> explanation in the new post and rather than use a protractor to measure
>> YOURS, depending on your hand and the size of your grips, follow the
>> logic explained there. Simply put the grip under the heel pad and midway
>> between the extended plane of the edges of your forearm. There will be a
>> bend there.
>
>
> 2 questions if you believe there is a bend there.
> 1) Then why did you say it should be FLAT in your 1st post to this
> thread?
> 2) Do you still believe that the natural dish angle set at address is
> maintained throughout the swing? If so, please see question #1 a second
> time.
>
>
>
In my first reply to the query put by Patty, I think it was, answering in
the context of a new golfer's mentality about that issue without the kind of
understanding of more sophisticated/experienced years, I said KINDA FLAT
because it is a common tendency for newcomers to the game to really cup the
left wrist at the top - to bend it back and get the clubshaft off plane. So
I qualified the comment with "kinda" to give what I believe to be a more
helpful suggestion. And STRAIGHT FLAT is not something I recommend for
the reasons in my new post on the subject. It isn't fatal: it simply
isn't as good as having a slight dish angle.

The natural dish angle at an address with low hands will flatten somewhat in
most golfers; and fully in some others on the way to the top. There is no
universal "is maintained" -- I recommend maintaining SOME DISH ANGLE in a
full swing at the top; it can't help but get pulled flatter during the
downswing, but an effort to do so is not appropriate.

Now you are looking for minutiae to pot shot, Mr. Greer: please spare the
tirade. I spoke clearly and I qualified for the newcomer what I intended to
convey. In a medium with nuances and degrees of interpretation, save us the
attacks. Post your own opinion and the reasons. Authority syndrome simply
won't fly.

I gave the reasons for my recommendation of the slight dish angle. Many
will disagree and many great swings will be flat flat at the top. I have
seen in Tiger's coffee table book where he has a fairly marked dish angle at
the top in one of his pics - he's wearing a white shirt in that one.

I accept that there are different opinions and convictions. This is an
opinion backed by the reasons I added to the post. If you have another
opinion, that is a fairly common reality among golfers. What IS yours ?

Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:53:29
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:9K95h.12676$3L.10602@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:455518b0$0$10296$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>> news:8385h.20186$lY5.1568@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>> But regarding whether it is as little as 135 or more like 150 ( I have
>>> come to realize 135 is too cupped so I guess your ciriticism is
>>> valid --135 is TOO much cup), I prefer the word "slight" to describe
>>> it.. Since the book I have refined the what and the why, so see the
>>> explanation in the new post and rather than use a protractor to measure
>>> YOURS, depending on your hand and the size of your grips, follow the
>>> logic explained there. Simply put the grip under the heel pad and midway
>>> between the extended plane of the edges of your forearm. There will be
>>> a bend there.
>>
>>
>> 2 questions if you believe there is a bend there.
>> 1) Then why did you say it should be FLAT in your 1st post to this
>> thread?
>> 2) Do you still believe that the natural dish angle set at address is
>> maintained throughout the swing? If so, please see question #1 a second
>> time.
>>
>>
>>
> In my first reply to the query put by Patty, I think it was, answering in
> the context of a new golfer's mentality about that issue without the kind
> of understanding of more sophisticated/experienced years, I said KINDA
> FLAT because it is a common tendency for newcomers to the game to really
> cup the left wrist at the top - to bend it back and get the clubshaft off
> plane. So I qualified the comment with "kinda" to give what I believe to
> be a more helpful suggestion. And STRAIGHT FLAT is not something I
> recommend for the reasons in my new post on the subject. It isn't
> fatal: it simply isn't as good as having a slight dish angle.
>
> The natural dish angle at an address with low hands will flatten somewhat
> in most golfers; and fully in some others on the way to the top. There is
> no universal "is maintained" -- I recommend maintaining SOME DISH ANGLE in
> a full swing at the top; it can't help but get pulled flatter during the
> downswing, but an effort to do so is not appropriate.
>
> Now you are looking for minutiae to pot shot, Mr. Greer: please spare the
> tirade. I spoke clearly and I qualified for the newcomer what I intended
> to convey. In a medium with nuances and degrees of interpretation, save
> us the attacks. Post your own opinion and the reasons. Authority
> syndrome simply won't fly.
>
> I gave the reasons for my recommendation of the slight dish angle. Many
> will disagree and many great swings will be flat flat at the top. I have
> seen in Tiger's coffee table book where he has a fairly marked dish angle
> at the top in one of his pics - he's wearing a white shirt in that one.
>
> I accept that there are different opinions and convictions. This is an
> opinion backed by the reasons I added to the post. If you have another
> opinion, that is a fairly common reality among golfers. What IS yours ?

My opionion is this.
As is shown in all good golfers and in the pictures of Blair in your book,
the hands travel targetward 3-6 inches targetward from address to impact.
IOW, the hands are closer to the target at impact, than they were at
address. From that position if a cup is present in the left wrist, there is
a loss of lag, their is power leakage, and the club must look left. I have
no problem with a mid body address, a dish angle at adress. If the dish
angle is still there at impact when the hands are 5 inches closer to the
target, the golfer has given up potential power and ball compression.

Date: 10 Nov 2006 21:01:18
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:45552d1d$0$496$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:9K95h.12676$3L.10602@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>> news:455518b0$0$10296$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>>
>>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8385h.20186$lY5.1568@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>> But regarding whether it is as little as 135 or more like 150 ( I have
>>>> come to realize 135 is too cupped so I guess your ciriticism is
>>>> valid --135 is TOO much cup), I prefer the word "slight" to describe
>>>> it.. Since the book I have refined the what and the why, so see the
>>>> explanation in the new post and rather than use a protractor to measure
>>>> YOURS, depending on your hand and the size of your grips, follow the
>>>> logic explained there. Simply put the grip under the heel pad and
>>>> midway between the extended plane of the edges of your forearm. There
>>>> will be a bend there.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2 questions if you believe there is a bend there.
>>> 1) Then why did you say it should be FLAT in your 1st post to this
>>> thread?
>>> 2) Do you still believe that the natural dish angle set at address is
>>> maintained throughout the swing? If so, please see question #1 a second
>>> time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> In my first reply to the query put by Patty, I think it was, answering in
>> the context of a new golfer's mentality about that issue without the kind
>> of understanding of more sophisticated/experienced years, I said KINDA
>> FLAT because it is a common tendency for newcomers to the game to really
>> cup the left wrist at the top - to bend it back and get the clubshaft off
>> plane. So I qualified the comment with "kinda" to give what I believe to
>> be a more helpful suggestion. And STRAIGHT FLAT is not something I
>> recommend for the reasons in my new post on the subject. It isn't
>> fatal: it simply isn't as good as having a slight dish angle.
>>
>> The natural dish angle at an address with low hands will flatten somewhat
>> in most golfers; and fully in some others on the way to the top. There
>> is no universal "is maintained" -- I recommend maintaining SOME DISH
>> ANGLE in a full swing at the top; it can't help but get pulled flatter
>> during the downswing, but an effort to do so is not appropriate.
>>
>> Now you are looking for minutiae to pot shot, Mr. Greer: please spare the
>> tirade. I spoke clearly and I qualified for the newcomer what I intended
>> to convey. In a medium with nuances and degrees of interpretation, save
>> us the attacks. Post your own opinion and the reasons. Authority
>> syndrome simply won't fly.
>>
>> I gave the reasons for my recommendation of the slight dish angle. Many
>> will disagree and many great swings will be flat flat at the top. I have
>> seen in Tiger's coffee table book where he has a fairly marked dish angle
>> at the top in one of his pics - he's wearing a white shirt in that one.
>>
>> I accept that there are different opinions and convictions. This is an
>> opinion backed by the reasons I added to the post. If you have another
>> opinion, that is a fairly common reality among golfers. What IS yours ?
>
> My opionion is this.
> As is shown in all good golfers and in the pictures of Blair in your book,
> the hands travel targetward 3-6 inches targetward from address to impact.
> IOW, the hands are closer to the target at impact, than they were at
> address. From that position if a cup is present in the left wrist, there
> is a loss of lag, their is power leakage, and the club must look left. I
> have no problem with a mid body address, a dish angle at adress. If the
> dish angle is still there at impact when the hands are 5 inches closer to
> the target, the golfer has given up potential power and ball compression.
>

Absolutely right. The business of lag is of course different from managing
something in the wrists which is a consequence of other things. This is the
reason that words, books on golf need pages on which different points are
made and such things clarified. Wouldn't it be perfect to have live models
that we could put into swing motions and freeze frame them all the way
through the way we can freeze the instants on movie image playbacks.
That'll be the next great invention: a Tiger Woods clone operated with a joy
stick....

Date: 10 Nov 2006 15:36:30
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Think I have felt LAG

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:26:21 -0500, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:

>
>"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>news:455499b4$0$10302$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>> news:R205h.17395$GE1.11189@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>> Yes, your confusion is most justified. I simplify it for myself this
>>> way: IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU GET TO THE TOP within reason: IT IS
>>> EXACTLY WHERE ARE YOUR HANDS AND THE CLUB AT THE TOP. The back of your
>>> left hand
>>> will need to be kinda lined up with the wrist - not cupped. If you got
>>> THAT I would advise not worrying about how you get there: just get there.
>>> Because the ball is hit with the DOWNswing, not the backswing.
>>
>> Well George, thats in opposition to your own book.
>> In your infamous publication, " Perfect Impact", on page 16, Photo # 7.
>> you say that there is a natural disch angle "cup" between the wrist and
>> hands. You say that the natural angle is about 135*. You state that this
>> natural dish angle ( cup) is to be *maintained throughout the swing*.
>> You've evn got a picture to show the dramatic cupping that you want the
>> reader to have *throughout the swing*.
>> You also discuss this cupping/angle on page 13, where you title the
>> discussion IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR--where you further discuss maintaining
>> this cupping * throughout the swing*.
>>
>> Have you become a TGM convert and ditched your PI Books and Academy?
>
>
>A dish angle is not a cup: it is a slight angle, and when I have time to
>post in detail I will explain why. I do NOT favor a FLAT left wrist:
>"kinda" -- more later.
>
Translation: I need time to figure out how to make my statements
agree. :-)
--
___,
\o