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Date: 18 Oct 2006 21:01:54
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Ran into a situation that confounded me today on the course. This was a four
man team competition and we were playing a hole that had a small, round pond
(only somewhat larger than the green) directly in front of the green
(yellow - NOT a lateral). One of our playing partners hit his approach along
the right side of the hazard. It finally crossed the hazard boundary and
ended in the water.
Because of the location of the pin, "John" could take a drop on a straight
line (pin to last hazard crossing point) near the last hazard point of
entry. So he went back on this line a good 5 paces to a nice/flat place,
took his drop, and played his next shot.
As John was putting out another playing partner said "that was a bad drop.
He never 'cleared the hazard' (whatever the hell that means)". I don't know
this guy well, but he claims to be a former rules official. He wanted the
guy to go back to an area in front of the hazard, furthest from the green to
take the drop. I'm not aware of a local rules drop area on this hole.
Is there a concept in golf of "clearing a hazard" in this context? This is
basically a small, round pond in front of a green. And if the point on the
pond nearest the green is 12:00, the ball last crossed the hazard at around
2:30 or 3:00. The 'former rules official' would have him take the drop at
6:00.
Am I as wet as John's golf ball here? Is there some trick that I am unaware
of (beyond rule 26-1b). As I carefully read the rule, I suppose that the use
of the words "behind the water hazard" and "keeping the point at which the
original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped .." is somewhat ambiguous
as in this case you were mostly going sideways, not exactly 'behind'.
dave
ps. It was easily settled since John's ball was not going to be part of the
team score and he was clearly ESC'ing the hole anyway.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 00:47:39
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Clearing the hazard only applies to lateral hazards as you can take the
penalty from the point where it last crossed the boundary. Assuming your
pond was actually a lateral, if the ball landed on the green beyond the
hazard boundary - it cleared the hazard - and spun back into the pond, it
last crossed the hazard boundary on the green side where the penalty may be
taken.
The former rules official is right for the wrong reason. On a water hazard
it matters not that the ball entered the hazard on the fairway or green
sides as the drop is back along on the line from pin to where the ball last
crossed the hazard keeping the crossing point between the ball and the pin.
ROG 26-1(c) meaning the drop is back out of the fairway side of the pond.
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:6DwZg.8850$Lv3.1936@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Ran into a situation that confounded me today on the course. This was a
> four
> man team competition and we were playing a hole that had a small, round
> pond
> (only somewhat larger than the green) directly in front of the green
> (yellow - NOT a lateral). One of our playing partners hit his approach
> along
> the right side of the hazard. It finally crossed the hazard boundary and
> ended in the water.
>
> Because of the location of the pin, "John" could take a drop on a straight
> line (pin to last hazard crossing point) near the last hazard point of
> entry. So he went back on this line a good 5 paces to a nice/flat place,
> took his drop, and played his next shot.
>
> As John was putting out another playing partner said "that was a bad drop.
> He never 'cleared the hazard' (whatever the hell that means)". I don't
> know
> this guy well, but he claims to be a former rules official. He wanted the
> guy to go back to an area in front of the hazard, furthest from the green
> to
> take the drop. I'm not aware of a local rules drop area on this hole.
>
> Is there a concept in golf of "clearing a hazard" in this context? This is
> basically a small, round pond in front of a green. And if the point on the
> pond nearest the green is 12:00, the ball last crossed the hazard at
> around
> 2:30 or 3:00. The 'former rules official' would have him take the drop at
> 6:00.
>
> Am I as wet as John's golf ball here? Is there some trick that I am
> unaware
> of (beyond rule 26-1b). As I carefully read the rule, I suppose that the
> use
> of the words "behind the water hazard" and "keeping the point at which the
> original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
> the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped .." is somewhat
> ambiguous
> as in this case you were mostly going sideways, not exactly 'behind'.
>
> dave
>
> ps. It was easily settled since John's ball was not going to be part of
> the
> team score and he was clearly ESC'ing the hole anyway.
>
>
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 14:31:33
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Stratman wrote:
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:6DwZg.8850$Lv3.1936@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Ran into a situation that confounded me today on the course. This was a
> > four
> > man team competition and we were playing a hole that had a small, round
> > pond
> > (only somewhat larger than the green) directly in front of the green
> > (yellow - NOT a lateral). One of our playing partners hit his approach
> > along
> > the right side of the hazard. It finally crossed the hazard boundary and
> > ended in the water.
> >
> > Because of the location of the pin, "John" could take a drop on a straight
> > line (pin to last hazard crossing point) near the last hazard point of
> > entry. So he went back on this line a good 5 paces to a nice/flat place,
> > took his drop, and played his next shot.
> >
> > As John was putting out another playing partner said "that was a bad drop.
> > He never 'cleared the hazard' (whatever the hell that means)". I don't
> > know
> > this guy well, but he claims to be a former rules official. He wanted the
> > guy to go back to an area in front of the hazard, furthest from the green
> > to
> > take the drop. I'm not aware of a local rules drop area on this hole.
> >
> > Is there a concept in golf of "clearing a hazard" in this context? This is
> > basically a small, round pond in front of a green. And if the point on the
> > pond nearest the green is 12:00, the ball last crossed the hazard at
> > around
> > 2:30 or 3:00. The 'former rules official' would have him take the drop at
> > 6:00.
> >
> > Am I as wet as John's golf ball here? Is there some trick that I am
> > unaware
> > of (beyond rule 26-1b). As I carefully read the rule, I suppose that the
> > use
> > of the words "behind the water hazard" and "keeping the point at which the
> > original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
> > the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped .." is somewhat
> > ambiguous
> > as in this case you were mostly going sideways, not exactly 'behind'.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > ps. It was easily settled since John's ball was not going to be part of
> > the
> > team score and he was clearly ESC'ing the hole anyway.
> >
> The point at which the ball "last crossed the hazard" is irrelevant.
> The appropriate point is where the ball FIRST crossed the hazard boundary.
>
You're just dead wrong. Last Cross the Hazard is EXACTLY what matters.
Rule 26-1
If a ball is in or is lost in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in
water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
(a) Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the
original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
(b) Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the
original ball ********last crossed the margin of the water
hazard******** directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball
is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball
may be dropped;
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 14:29:07
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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> Because of the location of the pin, "John" could take a drop on a straight
> line (pin to last hazard crossing point) near the last hazard point of
> entry. So he went back on this line a good 5 paces to a nice/flat place,
> took his drop, and played his next shot.
>
> As John was putting out another playing partner said "that was a bad drop.
> He never 'cleared the hazard' (whatever the hell that means)". I don't know
> this guy well, but he claims to be a former rules official. He wanted the
> guy to go back to an area in front of the hazard, furthest from the green to
> take the drop. I'm not aware of a local rules drop area on this hole.
I suspect the "former rules official" was claiming that the ball never
crossed the LINE of the hazard at the 2 o'clock position. Depending on
where the line is drawn, it's possible for the ball to have hit earth,
then bounced into the water, yet never "cleared" the hazard, and
actually had last crossed the margin of the hazard at the 6 o'clock
position
> Is there a concept in golf of "clearing a hazard" in this context? This is
> basically a small, round pond in front of a green. And if the point on the
> pond nearest the green is 12:00, the ball last crossed the hazard at around
> 2:30 or 3:00. The 'former rules official' would have him take the drop at
> 6:00.
I don't know why the concept of "the point at which the ball last
crossed the hazard" is so confusing to so many people.
>
> Am I as wet as John's golf ball here? Is there some trick that I am unaware
> of (beyond rule 26-1b). As I carefully read the rule, I suppose that the use
> of the words "behind the water hazard" and "keeping the point at which the
> original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
> the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped .." is somewhat ambiguous
> as in this case you were mostly going sideways, not exactly 'behind'.
>
> dave
>
> ps. It was easily settled since John's ball was not going to be part of the
> team score and he was clearly ESC'ing the hole anyway.
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:34:25
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161206947.868783.160080@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I suspect the "former rules official" was claiming that the ball never
> crossed the LINE of the hazard at the 2 o'clock position.
Which may explain why he is a "former rules official" ... he needed to step
up while the drop was taking place ...
Bob
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 20:56:43
From: long&left
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Bob wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1161206947.868783.160080@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> I suspect the "former rules official" was claiming that the ball never
>> crossed the LINE of the hazard at the 2 o'clock position.
>
> Which may explain why he is a "former rules official" ... he needed to step
> up while the drop was taking place ...
>
> Bob
>
>
I agree! It's not much different than having an important match with a
fellow twosome, one of which has moved their mark on the green to allow
you a putt without hitting their mark. Do you not remind them to return
their marker before they putt? In my mind, never would I consciously not
do so...If the "former rules official" had a problem with the drop, the
honorable thing to do would have been to declare his dispute before his
competitors shot, after the drop, was made...
Dave
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 23:19:03
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1161206947.868783.160080@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > snip
>
> I suspect the "former rules official" was claiming that the ball never
> crossed the LINE of the hazard at the 2 o'clock position.
>snip
That is the only rational thing I can think of.
dave
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 22:22:51
From: Stratman
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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The point at which the ball "last crossed the hazard" is irrelevant.
The appropriate point is where the ball FIRST crossed the hazard boundary.
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:6DwZg.8850$Lv3.1936@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Ran into a situation that confounded me today on the course. This was a
> four
> man team competition and we were playing a hole that had a small, round
> pond
> (only somewhat larger than the green) directly in front of the green
> (yellow - NOT a lateral). One of our playing partners hit his approach
> along
> the right side of the hazard. It finally crossed the hazard boundary and
> ended in the water.
>
> Because of the location of the pin, "John" could take a drop on a straight
> line (pin to last hazard crossing point) near the last hazard point of
> entry. So he went back on this line a good 5 paces to a nice/flat place,
> took his drop, and played his next shot.
>
> As John was putting out another playing partner said "that was a bad drop.
> He never 'cleared the hazard' (whatever the hell that means)". I don't
> know
> this guy well, but he claims to be a former rules official. He wanted the
> guy to go back to an area in front of the hazard, furthest from the green
> to
> take the drop. I'm not aware of a local rules drop area on this hole.
>
> Is there a concept in golf of "clearing a hazard" in this context? This is
> basically a small, round pond in front of a green. And if the point on the
> pond nearest the green is 12:00, the ball last crossed the hazard at
> around
> 2:30 or 3:00. The 'former rules official' would have him take the drop at
> 6:00.
>
> Am I as wet as John's golf ball here? Is there some trick that I am
> unaware
> of (beyond rule 26-1b). As I carefully read the rule, I suppose that the
> use
> of the words "behind the water hazard" and "keeping the point at which the
> original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between
> the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped .." is somewhat
> ambiguous
> as in this case you were mostly going sideways, not exactly 'behind'.
>
> dave
>
> ps. It was easily settled since John's ball was not going to be part of
> the
> team score and he was clearly ESC'ing the hole anyway.
>
>
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 00:48:46
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Excuse me, but ROG 26 is votes for last crossed.
"Stratman" <nospam@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:45369b37$0$8731$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> The point at which the ball "last crossed the hazard" is irrelevant.
> The appropriate point is where the ball FIRST crossed the hazard boundary.
>
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Date: 18 Oct 2006 22:47:45
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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On Wed, 18 2006 22:22:51 +0100, "Stratman" <nospam@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> The point at which the ball "last crossed the hazard" is irrelevant.
> The appropriate point is where the ball FIRST crossed the hazard boundary.
>
Wrong. Wronger. Wrongest.
Try reading Rule 26-1b.
Here, let me help you out:
> (b) Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped;
Note that word between "ball" and "crossed". L-A-S-T.
Also please note the absence of the word "first" anywhere in that
rule.
As to the original query: I would say that as long as 26-1b is adhered
to, then the drop is fine, and there is no need to go further behind
the hazard. And there is definitely no basis for demanding that the
player drop behind the 6:00 position, none whatsoever, since that spot
has nothing to do with where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the
hazard.
Peter
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 04:30:48
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Bob wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1161206947.868783.160080@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > I suspect the "former rules official" was claiming that the ball never
> > crossed the LINE of the hazard at the 2 o'clock position.
>
> Which may explain why he is a "former rules official" ... he needed to step
> up while the drop was taking place ...
>
I've played in about 10 tournaments in the last 2 years, and twice the
rules official that happened to be with our group and making a ruling
was dead wrong.
Once a guy hit off the tee into some not so heavy trees, and we
couldn't find the ball at first. The official claimed that the player
HAD to play a provisional and couldn't go back to the tee to hit his
3rd... what?? I asked what he's supposed to do then, and he didn't
have an answer.
Another occasion a guy hits into some crap off the tee. Hits a
provisional, that goes into some crap on the other side of the FW, hits
another provisional down the middle.
We get up and find the first ball, pretty much in an unplayable
condition (in some bushes). Everybody including the official is saying
he can go play the ball in teh middle of the FW as his 6th shot, and
I'm trying to inform them that he cannot because they are PROVISIONALS
and he would have to declare the first unplayable and go back and
retee.
Eventually the player tried to hit the first ball, so it didn't
matter... except that it took him another 5 shots to get out and he
ended up with an 11!
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Date: 19 Oct 2006 01:10:16
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Rules Question - Hazards and Drops
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Peter Strauss wrote:
>
> As to the original query: I would say that as long as 26-1b is adhered
> to, then the drop is fine,
exactly so.
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