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Date: 20 Sep 2006 22:24:52
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: On the nature of revelations
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Larry's recent "Holy Grail" post hit home with me,
although not in the way he probably intended.
I've had many such revelations while hacking
away on the driving range, or reading
some book, magazine, or watching The Golf
Channel.
Then I spend hours on the range pounding away
with this new insight which I think is the
one remaining breakthrough needed to
reach golfing Nirvana.
The only problem is that I am always wrong.
If I see a pro in the midst of such a frenzy,
it invariably turns out that I should have been
working on something entirely different than
what I was working on.
For one example, I recently had a revelation on
the timing of the hip turn, which I posted about
here in RSG. When I then went to my lesson,
though, it became immediately apparant that
I had a backswing problem that needed to be
fixed before dwelling on the downswing. The
solution was pretty simple, and I began hitting
the ball much better.
But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
downswing. I thought the hips should be more
open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
I was trying to do.
So my plan now is to try to resist any independent
thoughts, theories, and revelations I might have on
the golf swing, and just work on the things my pro
tells me to work on.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 08:59:03
From:
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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Birdie Bill wrote:
> babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> > Birdie Bill wrote:
> > > But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> > > It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> > > the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> > > downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> > > open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> > > that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> > > at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> > > and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> > > is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> > > I was trying to do.
> >
> > Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
> > about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
> > as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
> > great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
> > know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
> > directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
> > a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
> > 25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
> > also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
> > different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
> > and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
> > positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
> > are at impact than his shoulders.
>
> The numbers I quoted are from GolfTec's Tour Average table. They
> have measured over 150 Tour Pros using their motion analysis
> system which includes wearing sensors to measure hip and shoulder
> turn during the swing.
Then I think Golftec may be failing to take into account the fact that
the shoulders are more tilted at impact than address. Because of this
the shoulders actually turn on a steeper plane than the hips in the
downswing and if the rotation about the shoulders' true rotational axis
is measured the angle will obviously appear much more 'open' than
address. If this were true I could believe the 46 degree figure. But
this is not 'open' as most golfers would describe it. The problem here
is that the degree of rotation of hips and shoulders are being measured
about different axes. In thinking about the relative position of the
hips and shoulders I think it makes more sense to compare the degree of
rotation of hips and shoulders in relation to a common axis - this is
normally an axis perpendicular to the swingplane. If that's really
what's going on I can see their point, but I would not find it to be a
useful swing thought. How many people looking at the pictures of Tiger
I referred to would agree that his shoulders are really more open than
his hips?
Best Regards
Babbs
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 05:40:59
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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Dave Lee wrote:
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158841814.627105.247250@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> > > Birdie Bill wrote:
> > > > But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> > > > It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> > > > the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> > > > downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> > > > open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> > > > that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> > > > at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> > > > and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> > > > is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> > > > I was trying to do.
> > >
> > > Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
> > > about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
> > > as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
> > > great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
> > > know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
> > > directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
> > > a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
> > > 25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
> > > also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
> > > different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
> > > and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
> > > positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
> > > are at impact than his shoulders.
> >
> > The numbers I quoted are from GolfTec's Tour Average table. They
> > have measured over 150 Tour Pros using their motion analysis
> > system which includes wearing sensors to measure hip and shoulder
> > turn during the swing.
> >
>
> That is fascinating. If you look at Mann's "Model Swing Saver" which, in
> theory, is kind of an average of very good golf swings, it would appear that
> the hips are well in front of the shoulders.
>
> Gosh - ambiguity in proper golf swing mechanics. Who wouldda' thunk it :-)
Yeah, maybe that's where I got my original concept from.
I don't know where you can find the GolfTec table online,
but if you walk into a Golfsmith store that has a GolfTec
center in it, the table is up on the wall.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 05:30:14
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> Birdie Bill wrote:
> > But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> > It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> > the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> > downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> > open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> > that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> > at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> > and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> > is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> > I was trying to do.
>
> Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
> about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
> as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
> great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
> know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
> directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
> a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
> 25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
> also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
> different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
> and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
> positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
> are at impact than his shoulders.
The numbers I quoted are from GolfTec's Tour Average table. They
have measured over 150 Tour Pros using their motion analysis
system which includes wearing sensors to measure hip and shoulder
turn during the swing.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 12:35:23
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158841814.627105.247250@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> > Birdie Bill wrote:
> > > But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> > > It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> > > the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> > > downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> > > open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> > > that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> > > at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> > > and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> > > is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> > > I was trying to do.
> >
> > Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
> > about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
> > as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
> > great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
> > know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
> > directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
> > a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
> > 25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
> > also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
> > different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
> > and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
> > positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
> > are at impact than his shoulders.
>
> The numbers I quoted are from GolfTec's Tour Average table. They
> have measured over 150 Tour Pros using their motion analysis
> system which includes wearing sensors to measure hip and shoulder
> turn during the swing.
>
That is fascinating. If you look at Mann's "Model Swing Saver" which, in
theory, is kind of an average of very good golf swings, it would appear that
the hips are well in front of the shoulders.
Gosh - ambiguity in proper golf swing mechanics. Who wouldda' thunk it :-)
dave
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 12:14:15
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158816292.887801.116800@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Larry's recent "Holy Grail" post hit home with me,
> although not in the way he probably intended.
> I've had many such revelations while hacking
> away on the driving range, or reading
> some book, magazine, or watching The Golf
> Channel.
>
> Then I spend hours on the range pounding away
> with this new insight which I think is the
> one remaining breakthrough needed to
> reach golfing Nirvana.
>
> The only problem is that I am always wrong.
> If I see a pro in the midst of such a frenzy,
> it invariably turns out that I should have been
> working on something entirely different than
> what I was working on.
>
> For one example, I recently had a revelation on
> the timing of the hip turn, which I posted about
> here in RSG. When I then went to my lesson,
> though, it became immediately apparant that
> I had a backswing problem that needed to be
> fixed before dwelling on the downswing. The
> solution was pretty simple, and I began hitting
> the ball much better.
>
> But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> I was trying to do.
>
> So my plan now is to try to resist any independent
> thoughts, theories, and revelations I might have on
> the golf swing, and just work on the things my pro
> tells me to work on.
>
Bill, I agree with everything you posted except (maybe) for the hip vs.
shoulder turn. It may well be that, for mere mortal golfers like us folks on
RSG, 'turn instead of twist' is the superior motion. But I do believe that
the way the game is played these days by the pros it really is a twist for
them. If you look carefully at the "Model Golf" images put together by Mann
(Swing Like a Pro - SLAP), it is pretty clear that the hips are ahead of the
shoulders.
OTOH, if I try to do this it is instant death for my swing. So maybe I do
agree with you after all :-)
dave
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 03:16:07
From:
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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Birdie Bill wrote:
> But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> I was trying to do.
Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
are at impact than his shoulders.
Rgds
Babbs
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 19:23:01
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> Birdie Bill wrote:
> > babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> > > Birdie Bill wrote:
> > > > But my theory on the hip turn was also flawed.
> > > > It turned out I had the wrong concept of what
> > > > the shoulders and hips should be doing in the
> > > > downswing. I thought the hips should be more
> > > > open than the shoulders at impact. But it turns out
> > > > that the pros shoulders are MORE open than hips
> > > > at impact. Shoulders are 46 degrees open,
> > > > and hips are 42 degrees open. So the downswing
> > > > is more of a simple turn, rather than the twisting
> > > > I was trying to do.
> > >
> > > Sorry to criticise your latest revelation, but I think you are wrong
> > > about this. I believe the ideal is for the shoulders to be about half
> > > as open as your hips. The problem is that it is hard to find footage of
> > > great players taken from the correct camera angle. The best example I
> > > know of is a sequence in Tiger Woods' book "How I play golf" taken from
> > > directly above the swingplane. At the moment of impact with the driver
> > > a rough measurement with my protractor came up with figures of around
> > > 25 degrees open for shoulders and 45 degrees open for his hips. There's
> > > also a second sequence in that book that shows Tiger's swing from 3
> > > different angles - in front the golfer, from the side facing the target
> > > and directly above the golfer. This is also useful for studying Tiger's
> > > positions in detail and quite clearly shows how much more open his hips
> > > are at impact than his shoulders.
> >
> > The numbers I quoted are from GolfTec's Tour Average table. They
> > have measured over 150 Tour Pros using their motion analysis
> > system which includes wearing sensors to measure hip and shoulder
> > turn during the swing.
>
> Then I think Golftec may be failing to take into account the fact that
> the shoulders are more tilted at impact than address. Because of this
> the shoulders actually turn on a steeper plane than the hips in the
> downswing and if the rotation about the shoulders' true rotational axis
> is measured the angle will obviously appear much more 'open' than
> address. If this were true I could believe the 46 degree figure. But
> this is not 'open' as most golfers would describe it. The problem here
> is that the degree of rotation of hips and shoulders are being measured
> about different axes. In thinking about the relative position of the
> hips and shoulders I think it makes more sense to compare the degree of
> rotation of hips and shoulders in relation to a common axis - this is
> normally an axis perpendicular to the swingplane. If that's really
> what's going on I can see their point, but I would not find it to be a
> useful swing thought. How many people looking at the pictures of Tiger
> I referred to would agree that his shoulders are really more open than
> his hips?
Not sure if that is the explanation or not, but I believe
the shoulder turn and hip turn are measured vs the
target line as viewed from directly above. I think that's
just in the nature of how the sensors they use
work. Since, when you are taking lessons at GolfTec,
you arestrapped into the same sensors, it does make
sense to have consistent measurements.
Even so, after looking at some pictures, I do agree that
most top pros appear to have their hips turned more than
their shoulders. However, I couldn't find any top views
to do actual measurements. Believe it or not, I couldn't
find Tiger's book at either B&N or Borders.
But the other thing I noticed was that, at any case, the
shoulders are quite open at impact. So it appears to
me, at least, that it might not be a good idea to try to
restrict opening of the shoulders, which was something
I thought might be a good idea in the past.
But all of this is speculation, which goes against my new
philosophy of "don't think - just do". I'll ask my pro about
this next time.
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 11:13:46
From: Miss Anne Thrope
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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"I am always wrong."
If only the rest of you shmucks could be as honest and introspective as
Bill...
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 00:49:34
From:
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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Birdie Bill wrote:
>
> Not sure if that is the explanation or not, but I believe
> the shoulder turn and hip turn are measured vs the
> target line as viewed from directly above. I think that's
> just in the nature of how the sensors they use
> work. Since, when you are taking lessons at GolfTec,
> you arestrapped into the same sensors, it does make
> sense to have consistent measurements.
>
> Even so, after looking at some pictures, I do agree that
> most top pros appear to have their hips turned more than
> their shoulders. However, I couldn't find any top views
> to do actual measurements. Believe it or not, I couldn't
> find Tiger's book at either B&N or Borders.
>
> But the other thing I noticed was that, at any case, the
> shoulders are quite open at impact. So it appears to
> me, at least, that it might not be a good idea to try to
> restrict opening of the shoulders, which was something
> I thought might be a good idea in the past.
>
> But all of this is speculation, which goes against my new
> philosophy of "don't think - just do". I'll ask my pro about
> this next time.
OK, thanks for the explanation. The way they measure positions in
relation to the target line does make perfect sense. I guess the
problem comes with how we define the position of the shoulders and
hips. I generally do this by laying a clubshaft along the front and
relating its position to the ball target line. But I could see that the
placement of the sensors might have a considerable effect on the final
measurement that they arrive at due to the fact that the shoulders
actually move in quite a complex way. But even if their way of
measuring shoulder position is technically more accurate I still don't
believe it is very useful for vizualization. If you swing down to your
impact position and lay a clubshaft across your hips it should be about
45 degrees and then if you lay it across your shoulders it should be
about half that say 20-25 degrees. If you are in that position at
impact you will be fine.
Its worth getting Tiger's book for the swing sequences alone they are
very informative.
Rgds
B
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Date: 27 Sep 2006 04:25:44
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On the nature of revelations
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babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> Birdie Bill wrote:
> >
> > Not sure if that is the explanation or not, but I believe
> > the shoulder turn and hip turn are measured vs the
> > target line as viewed from directly above. I think that's
> > just in the nature of how the sensors they use
> > work. Since, when you are taking lessons at GolfTec,
> > you arestrapped into the same sensors, it does make
> > sense to have consistent measurements.
> >
> > Even so, after looking at some pictures, I do agree that
> > most top pros appear to have their hips turned more than
> > their shoulders. However, I couldn't find any top views
> > to do actual measurements. Believe it or not, I couldn't
> > find Tiger's book at either B&N or Borders.
> >
> > But the other thing I noticed was that, at any case, the
> > shoulders are quite open at impact. So it appears to
> > me, at least, that it might not be a good idea to try to
> > restrict opening of the shoulders, which was something
> > I thought might be a good idea in the past.
> >
> > But all of this is speculation, which goes against my new
> > philosophy of "don't think - just do". I'll ask my pro about
> > this next time.
>
> OK, thanks for the explanation. The way they measure positions in
> relation to the target line does make perfect sense. I guess the
> problem comes with how we define the position of the shoulders and
> hips. I generally do this by laying a clubshaft along the front and
> relating its position to the ball target line. But I could see that the
> placement of the sensors might have a considerable effect on the final
> measurement that they arrive at due to the fact that the shoulders
> actually move in quite a complex way. But even if their way of
> measuring shoulder position is technically more accurate I still don't
> believe it is very useful for vizualization. If you swing down to your
> impact position and lay a clubshaft across your hips it should be about
> 45 degrees and then if you lay it across your shoulders it should be
> about half that say 20-25 degrees. If you are in that position at
> impact you will be fine.
> Its worth getting Tiger's book for the swing sequences alone they are
> very informative.
> Rgds
> B
I talked to the pro about this yesterday. He confirmed that
the shoulder sensors measure what your sternum is pointed
at, and this is affected by shoulder tilt. Since the shoulders
are tilted much more than the hips, they measure more open
than the hips, even though you wouldn't think they are by
looking at a photo.
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