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Main
Date: 11 Oct 2006 21:26:50
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: OT political
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Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue or is
it idealog, means? I hadn't heard that word before the last two or three
presidential cycles. I've heard of idealist and I've heard of being
obsessive but what purpose and who invented the word "idealog"?
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 05:05:28
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT political
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AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:
: Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue or is
: it idealog, means?
"Ideologue" is used in contrast with "pragmatist." An ideologue
will prefer policies that conform to his belief set, regardless
of the nature of the problem to be solved. A pragmatist will
adapt/compromise his beliefs to solve the problem at hand.
Clinton and Bush 41 were textbook pragmatists. Even Reagan was
more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Bush 43 doesn't really
fit either category, IMO. He's a special case for reasons not
worth getting into here. Barry Goldwater was an ideologue
deluxe, though. You'd pretty much have to find a socialist
to find a true left-wing ideologue in America, though. Libs
like Kennedy have certain ideological tendencies, but you
don't see them calling for things like the government owner-
ship of capital the same way that libertarians and big business
Republicans call for unfettered free enterprise.
Your political science major on call,
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 00:53:46
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:0T3hn6a9IhrN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
> : Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue
> or is
> : it idealog, means?
>
> "Ideologue" is used in contrast with "pragmatist." An ideologue
> will prefer policies that conform to his belief set, regardless
> of the nature of the problem to be solved. A pragmatist will
> adapt/compromise his beliefs to solve the problem at hand.
>
> Clinton and Bush 41 were textbook pragmatists. Even Reagan was
> more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Bush 43 doesn't really
> fit either category, IMO. He's a special case for reasons not
> worth getting into here. Barry Goldwater was an ideologue
> deluxe, though. You'd pretty much have to find a socialist
> to find a true left-wing ideologue in America, though. Libs
> like Kennedy have certain ideological tendencies, but you
> don't see them calling for things like the government owner-
> ship of capital the same way that libertarians and big business
> Republicans call for unfettered free enterprise.
>
> Your political science major on call,
>
> --
> Chris Bellomy
> C-List Charter Member
> http://clist.org/
I guess it's like something from semantics 101. I'm an idealist. You're
obsessing. He's an idealogue. It really does sound Orwellian, though,
doesn't it. Someone can't be a misguided idealist. He's an idealogue. Maybe
it's a substitute for religions fanatic.
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 00:48:59
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:0T3hn6a9IhrN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
> : Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue
> or is
> : it idealog, means?
>
> "Ideologue" is used in contrast with "pragmatist." An ideologue
> will prefer policies that conform to his belief set, regardless
> of the nature of the problem to be solved. A pragmatist will
> adapt/compromise his beliefs to solve the problem at hand.
>
> Clinton and Bush 41 were textbook pragmatists. Even Reagan was
> more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Bush 43 doesn't really
> fit either category, IMO. He's a special case for reasons not
> worth getting into here. Barry Goldwater was an ideologue
> deluxe, though. You'd pretty much have to find a socialist
> to find a true left-wing ideologue in America, though. Libs
> like Kennedy have certain ideological tendencies, but you
> don't see them calling for things like the government owner-
> ship of capital the same way that libertarians and big business
> Republicans call for unfettered free enterprise.
>
> Your political science major on call,
>
> --
> Chris Bellomy
> C-List Charter Member
> http://clist.org/
When was the word invented? It's not in my Thesaurus from about 1980. And
your definition isn't that similar to the one on dictionary.com. I really
think it might be Newspeak or whatever that thing was from 1984. When was
the first time you heard it?
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 15:07:07
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT political
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AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:
:
: "Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
: news:0T3hn6a9IhrN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
: > AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
: > : Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue
: > or is
: > : it idealog, means?
: >
: > "Ideologue" is used in contrast with "pragmatist." An ideologue
: > will prefer policies that conform to his belief set, regardless
: > of the nature of the problem to be solved. A pragmatist will
: > adapt/compromise his beliefs to solve the problem at hand.
: >
: > Clinton and Bush 41 were textbook pragmatists. Even Reagan was
: > more of a pragmatist than an ideologue. Bush 43 doesn't really
: > fit either category, IMO. He's a special case for reasons not
: > worth getting into here. Barry Goldwater was an ideologue
: > deluxe, though. You'd pretty much have to find a socialist
: > to find a true left-wing ideologue in America, though. Libs
: > like Kennedy have certain ideological tendencies, but you
: > don't see them calling for things like the government owner-
: > ship of capital the same way that libertarians and big business
: > Republicans call for unfettered free enterprise.
: >
: > Your political science major on call,
:
: When was the word invented? It's not in my Thesaurus from about 1980. And
: your definition isn't that similar to the one on dictionary.com. I really
: think it might be Newspeak or whatever that thing was from 1984. When was
: the first time you heard it?
Probably in the 70s when I was a kid. We discussed it in detail
in college in 1983.
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 10:30:16
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: OT political
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On Thu, 12 2006 15:07:07 GMT, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:
>AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>:
>: "Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
>: news:0T3hn6a9IhrN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
>:> AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>:> : Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue
>:> or is
>:> : it idealog, means?
>:>
<clip >
>: When was the word invented? It's not in my Thesaurus from about 1980. And
>: your definition isn't that similar to the one on dictionary.com. I really
>: think it might be Newspeak or whatever that thing was from 1984. When was
>: the first time you heard it?
>
>Probably in the 70s when I was a kid. We discussed it in detail
>in college in 1983.
Or 168 years before that, when I was in school.
From the Oline Etymology Dictionary:
ideology - 1796, "science of ideas," originally "philosophy of the
mind which derives knowledge from the senses" (as opposed to
metaphysics), from Fr. idéologie "study or science of ideas," coined
by Fr. philosopher Destutt de Tracy (1754-1836) from idéo- "of ideas,"
from Gk. idea (see idea) + -logy. Meaning "systematic set of ideas,
drines" first recorded 1909. Ideologue first recorded 1815, in ref.
to the Fr. Revolutionaries.
___,
\o
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 13:14:52
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:bnnsi2pq9ft60joepdn6781usfju1oscho@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 12 2006 15:07:07 GMT, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
>>AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>>:
>>: "Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
>>: news:0T3hn6a9IhrN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
>>:> AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>>:> : Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word
>>idealogue
>>:> or is
>>:> : it idealog, means?
>>:>
> <clip>
>>: When was the word invented? It's not in my Thesaurus from about 1980.
>>And
>>: your definition isn't that similar to the one on dictionary.com. I
>>really
>>: think it might be Newspeak or whatever that thing was from 1984. When
>>was
>>: the first time you heard it?
>>
>>Probably in the 70s when I was a kid. We discussed it in detail
>>in college in 1983.
>
> Or 168 years before that, when I was in school.
>
> From the Oline Etymology Dictionary:
> ideology - 1796, "science of ideas," originally "philosophy of the
> mind which derives knowledge from the senses" (as opposed to
> metaphysics), from Fr. idéologie "study or science of ideas," coined
> by Fr. philosopher Destutt de Tracy (1754-1836) from idéo- "of ideas,"
> from Gk. idea (see idea) + -logy. Meaning "systematic set of ideas,
> drines" first recorded 1909. Ideologue first recorded 1815, in ref.
> to the Fr. Revolutionaries.
> ___,
> \o
>
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 15:43:17
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: OT political
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On Thu, 12 2006 13:14:52 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:
>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>> From the Oline Etymology Dictionary:
>> ideology - 1796, "science of ideas," originally "philosophy of the
>> mind which derives knowledge from the senses" (as opposed to
>> metaphysics), from Fr. idéologie "study or science of ideas," coined
>> by Fr. philosopher Destutt de Tracy (1754-1836) from idéo- "of ideas,"
>> from Gk. idea (see idea) + -logy. Meaning "systematic set of ideas,
>> drines" first recorded 1909. Ideologue first recorded 1815, in ref.
>> to the Fr. Revolutionaries.
>
>> bk
>
>Does it specifically list "idealogue". I think there is a difference.
>
Wouldn't the last sentence be specific enough?
___,
\o
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 13:51:05
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:86ati2pu90eifqtv8bdt5v8ccu5cjbteih@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 12 2006 13:14:52 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>
>>> From the Oline Etymology Dictionary:
>>> ideology - 1796, "science of ideas," originally "philosophy of the
>>> mind which derives knowledge from the senses" (as opposed to
>>> metaphysics), from Fr. idéologie "study or science of ideas," coined
>>> by Fr. philosopher Destutt de Tracy (1754-1836) from idéo- "of ideas,"
>>> from Gk. idea (see idea) + -logy. Meaning "systematic set of ideas,
>>> drines" first recorded 1909. Ideologue first recorded 1815, in ref.
>>> to the Fr. Revolutionaries.
>>
>>> bk
>>
>>Does it specifically list "idealogue". I think there is a difference.
>>
> Wouldn't the last sentence be specific enough?
> ___,
> \o
>
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 21:30:29
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: OT political
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AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:
: Yes. : -) but that doesn't mean that it the word isn't being twisted and
: retooled for an evil purpose. Maybe my problem is that it makes anyone who
: believes in an idea or a set of principles seem to be like anyone else who
: does the same, whether the principle is democracy or the diety of their
: religious leader.
To be clear, the word is ideologue with two o's, not directly
based on "ideal" but rather on "ideology," which is specfically
political. The criticism of someone as an ideologue is a way of
saying that the person is too inflexible in his thinking to be
sensitive to changing conditions. It can be a valid criticism,
as flexibility is an absolute necessity in government.
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 20:15:45
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:4T3hp0tpIlkkN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> AKA Gray Asphalt <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
> : Yes. : -) but that doesn't mean that it the word isn't being twisted and
> : retooled for an evil purpose. Maybe my problem is that it makes anyone
> who
> : believes in an idea or a set of principles seem to be like anyone else
> who
> : does the same, whether the principle is democracy or the diety of their
> : religious leader.
>
> To be clear, the word is ideologue with two o's, not directly
> based on "ideal" but rather on "ideology," which is specfically
> political. The criticism of someone as an ideologue is a way of
> saying that the person is too inflexible in his thinking to be
> sensitive to changing conditions. It can be a valid criticism,
> as flexibility is an absolute necessity in government.
>
> --
> Chris Bellomy
> C-List Charter Member
> http://clist.org/
I understand your fine point or maybe it is just something that is common
understanding to those who are more attuned to nuance ... I mean smarter
than me : -) but the obvious connection between the exaltation of an idea
and ideal are pretty similar and people have to deal with the fact that when
words sound alike they are associated.
One thing that I have to say and actually thank you people for, is that I
have read some very thoughtful and caring ideas which give me some hope that
the people who I knew in the Perot era aren't the only ones who try to look
at more than one side of an issue and are really really concerned about our
country and the world. It really has made me feel less desperate (not a good
word for a guy to use) and less anxious. From both sides.
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 17:33:54
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1kqm@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@delmardata.com> wrote:
>
> > >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> > >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> > >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
> >
> > Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> > from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> > that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> > hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> > treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
>
> You are simply incorrect, as usual.
>
> A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
> club's *path*.
...unless of course it is closed to the path... :)
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 00:37:38
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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In article <1160699634.233384.21620@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1kqm@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@delmardata.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> > > >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> > > >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
> > >
> > > Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> > > from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> > > that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> > > hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> > > treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
> >
> > You are simply incorrect, as usual.
> >
> > A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
> > club's *path*.
>
> ...unless of course it is closed to the path... :)
Well, yes... duh!
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 11:39:48
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: OT political
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"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote ...
> Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue or
> is it idealog, means? I hadn't heard that word before the last two or
> three presidential cycles. I've heard of idealist and I've heard of being
> obsessive but what purpose and who invented the word "idealog"?
The word appears in Webster's New World College Dictionary.
ideo-logue (id'e a log', i'de-) n. [[ Fr. ideologue, back-form. <
ideo-logic: see fol.]] 1. a zealous exponent or advocate of a specified
ideology 2. a student of or expert in ideology
Randy
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 06:31:56
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: OT political
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On Wed, 11 2006 21:26:50 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:
>Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue or is
>it idealog, means? I hadn't heard that word before the last two or three
>presidential cycles. I've heard of idealist and I've heard of being
>obsessive but what purpose and who invented the word "idealog"?
>
ideologue
Variant(s): also idea·logue /'I-dE-&-"log, -"läg/
Function: noun
Etymology: French idéologue, back-formation from idéologie
1 : an impractical idealist : THEORIST
2 : an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular
ideology
___,
\o
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 13:16:22
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: OT political
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"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:es9si2trbcpq807cpmejtpujq8b72kmksm@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 2006 21:26:50 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
>>Just out of curiosity ... how many people know what the word idealogue or
>>is
>>it idealog, means? I hadn't heard that word before the last two or three
>>presidential cycles. I've heard of idealist and I've heard of being
>>obsessive but what purpose and who invented the word "idealog"?
>>
>
>
> ideologue
> Variant(s): also idea·logue /'I-dE-&-"log, -"läg/
> Function: noun
> Etymology: French idéologue, back-formation from idéologie
> 1 : an impractical idealist : THEORIST
> 2 : an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular
> ideology
> ___,
> \o
>
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 06:48:03
From: John B.
Subject: Re: OT political
|
AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> "Carbon" <nobrac@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.10.13.00.34.03.552581@nospam.verizon.net...
> > On Thu, 12 2006 05:05:28 +0000, Chris Bellomy wrote:
> >
> >> Clinton and Bush 41 were textbook pragmatists. Even Reagan was more of a
> >> pragmatist than an ideologue. Bush 43 doesn't really fit either
> >> category, IMO. He's a special case for reasons not worth getting into
> >> here.
> >
> > Ok, I'll bite. In his latest book Colin Powell suggests that Bush has a
> > tendency to believe the last person who whispered in his ear, the
> > implication being (I think) that he's too dumb to be an idealogue. You?
I don't think you can be "too dumb to be an ideologue." I think you can
be too smart to be one.
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 02:47:36
From: zumafan
Subject: Re: OT political
|
AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> Yes. : -) but that doesn't mean that it the word isn't being twisted and
> retooled for an evil purpose.
It depends on what your definition of "is" is.
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