If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

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Date: 20 Aug 2006 14:16:48
From: TJM
Subject: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Will he be considered the greatest ever?

Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
left in him if he stays healthy.

Discuss.....

Date: 20 Aug 2006 21:32:53
From: Noons
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

TJM wrote:
> Will he be considered the greatest ever?

"Will"???

> Discuss.....

Nothing to discuss. The kid is back with a vengeance,
he's wipe everybody else's arse with one hand behind
his back.

All the boofheads who keep sharing prizes every
weekend in their little round-robbin racket are gonna
see now what he's capable of.

I wonder where the arseholes are, who predicted his
demise a few months back? Hmmm, strangely silent...

He's the best, period.
Furthermore: he's not ashamed of showing he's
the best. He's got the drive, the "want", the nerve
to do it. None of the other sorry-arsed "pros"
comes anywhere within miles of him.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46
From: Bucky
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

TJM wrote:
> Will he be considered the greatest ever?

No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
but he's not until he wins the 19th.

Date: 21 Aug 2006 07:06:34
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46 -0700, "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com > wrote:

>TJM wrote:
>> Will he be considered the greatest ever?
>
>No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
>it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
>a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
>but he's not until he wins the 19th.

That only will mean that he's won the most majors. If someone comes
along and proceeds to shoot low 60s, several 59s, sets all scoring
records, and wins 6 majors, then retires after 8 years, he would be
the greatest ever.

"Greatest" is about ability, not skins on the wall.
___,
\o

Date: 22 Aug 2006 00:51:29
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:06:34 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>That only will mean that he's won the most majors. If someone comes
>along and proceeds to shoot low 60s, several 59s, sets all scoring
>records, and wins 6 majors, then retires after 8 years, he would be
>the greatest ever.
>
>"Greatest" is about ability, not skins on the wall.

But duration does count. The best round of all time is different
from the best year of all time which is different from the best career
of all time.

Date: 31 Aug 2006 11:54:10
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Begay's drop

On 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46 -0700, "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com > wrote:

>No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
>it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
>a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
>but he's not until he wins the 19th.

Thinking of David Duval, I am reminded of another player who got a 59,
albeit on the Nike tour, who didn't get as high, but who is fuzting
around on the Nationwide now - Notah Begay. What happened to his
game?

Date: 31 Aug 2006 12:58:06
From: Brian Foster
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

Good question. Notah is a tough kid who I had a lot of admiration for. Not
the prettiest golf swing you'll ever see but he seemed to overcome his
talent shortcomings with a lot of character. I always like to watch a guy
who isn't pretty but gets the job done. Notah's swing will never be confused
with Fred Couples. He doesn't make golf look easy.

He got into Stanford, played college golf with Tiger for a while. He had a
pretty public DUI bust in NM a few years ago and now you just don't hear
much about him.

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:oajdf2deu3o6h173lr631fqs73tr91bj8k@4ax.com...
> On 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46 -0700, "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
>
>>No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
>>it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
>>a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
>>but he's not until he wins the 19th.
>
> Thinking of David Duval, I am reminded of another player who got a 59,
> albeit on the Nike tour, who didn't get as high, but who is fuzting
> around on the Nationwide now - Notah Begay. What happened to his
> game?

Date: 31 Aug 2006 06:43:58
From: multi
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:58:06 GMT, "Brian Foster"
<brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote:
>He got into Stanford, played college golf with Tiger for a while. He had a
>pretty public DUI bust in NM a few years ago and now you just don't hear
>much about him.

IIRC he won a few lower-tier events six or seven years ago, and there
were posts in RSG demanding to know why he wasn't number one in the
World Golf Rankings. This while Tiger was taking a chainsaw to the
record books. But he seemed like a nice enough guy in his interviews.

Date: 31 Aug 2006 15:30:02
From: Brian Foster
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

When he got busted for DUI, I remember listening to Jim Rome one day and he
was all over the situation because apparently Begay did time in an
Albuquerque jail. The Sheriff let Begay out so he could give some golf
lessons to the law enforcement officers as part of his debt to society. Romy
had a big time with that.

I also saw an interview with Begay regarding his DUI and the guy seemed both
embarrassed and contrite.

"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:3opdf2lh2vcko44p52tsdavp3mgn4tng6b@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:58:06 GMT, "Brian Foster"
> <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>He got into Stanford, played college golf with Tiger for a while. He had a
>>pretty public DUI bust in NM a few years ago and now you just don't hear
>>much about him.
>
> IIRC he won a few lower-tier events six or seven years ago, and there
> were posts in RSG demanding to know why he wasn't number one in the
> World Golf Rankings. This while Tiger was taking a chainsaw to the
> record books. But he seemed like a nice enough guy in his interviews.

Date: 31 Aug 2006 11:46:31
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

My recollection was Arizona allows work release for DUI and since Begay is a
professional golfer .....

Rome and all the other sports radio gossips would not be on the air unless
the could make mountains out of molehills.

"Brian Foster" <brianfoster@houston.rr.com > wrote in message
news:_fDJg.8954$dl.8426@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> When he got busted for DUI, I remember listening to Jim Rome one day and
> he was all over the situation because apparently Begay did time in an
> Albuquerque jail. The Sheriff let Begay out so he could give some golf
> lessons to the law enforcement officers as part of his debt to society.
> Romy had a big time with that.
>
> I also saw an interview with Begay regarding his DUI and the guy seemed
> both embarrassed and contrite.
>
>
> "multi" <multi@asm.org> wrote in message
> news:3opdf2lh2vcko44p52tsdavp3mgn4tng6b@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:58:06 GMT, "Brian Foster"
>> <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>>He got into Stanford, played college golf with Tiger for a while. He had
>>>a
>>>pretty public DUI bust in NM a few years ago and now you just don't hear
>>>much about him.
>>
>> IIRC he won a few lower-tier events six or seven years ago, and there
>> were posts in RSG demanding to know why he wasn't number one in the
>> World Golf Rankings. This while Tiger was taking a chainsaw to the
>> record books. But he seemed like a nice enough guy in his interviews.
>
>

Date: 31 Aug 2006 10:17:20
From: ahunny --
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

Albuquercue is in New Mexico

Date: 31 Aug 2006 10:44:59
From: Eric Gurney
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

I thought I heard in an interview that he was hurt for awhile.

"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:3opdf2lh2vcko44p52tsdavp3mgn4tng6b@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:58:06 GMT, "Brian Foster"
> <brianfoster@houston.rr.com> wrote:
>>He got into Stanford, played college golf with Tiger for a while. He had a
>>pretty public DUI bust in NM a few years ago and now you just don't hear
>>much about him.
>
> IIRC he won a few lower-tier events six or seven years ago, and there
> were posts in RSG demanding to know why he wasn't number one in the
> World Golf Rankings. This while Tiger was taking a chainsaw to the
> record books. But he seemed like a nice enough guy in his interviews.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 00:40:57
From: Lee Gordon
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

<<Notah Begay. What happened to his
game? >>

He had some serious back problems.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:57:15
From: THE Sandman
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

From www.notah.com:

Taking it easy is not an option

August 16, 2006
By Team NB3

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - Even though Notah Begay III is taking this week off from
the professional golf circuit, he knows that taking it easy is not an
option.

"Well let's be very honest about my situation right now," Notah said on
Monday. "My back is against the wall in terms of my standing on both the PGA
Tour and Nationwide Tour money lists."

The three-time Stanford All-American currently ranks 205th and 135th on the
PGA Tour and Nationwide Tour money lists, respectively. In order to earn
exempt status on the 2007 PGA Tour, Notah will need to climb into the top
125 of the PGA Tour or the top 20 on the Nationwide.

"I'm fairly low on both lists so about the only thing that will secure my
exempt status for next year is a win," Notah said. "Keeping that in mind, my
preparation for the Reno-Tahoe Open will be very diligent with an emphasis
on addressing some of the weak spots in my game. I want to show up at the
RTO ready to play well."

The Reno-Tahoe Open, which Notah won in 1999, opens play next week with
Thursday's first round at the Montreux Golf & Country Club in Reno, Nev.

This week, while Notah preps for the RTO, the season's final major event
will take place in Medinah, Ill., where the Medinah Country Club plays host
to the PGA Championship.

"I will watch the PGA Championship hoping that Tiger can continue his streak
of great play," Notah admitted. "I always look to the major championships as
my favorite events. They seem to be the hardest courses with the best fields
and that embodies the spirit of competition."

Notah is 1-1 vs. the cut at two previous PGA Championships, including a tie
for 8th at the 2000 event.

NOTAH'S 2006 SEASON BREAKDOWN TO DATE.

2006 Money List Rankings
PGA Tour - 205th ($110,334) - Top 125 earn 2007 PGA Tour exemption
Nationwide Tour - 135th ($19,889) - Top 20 earn 2007 PGA Tour exemption

2006 Season Highlights
Best Finish: T9 (Buick Championship)
Most Money Earned: $101,828.57 (Buick Championship)
Lowest Round: 64 (Rex Hospital Open)
Bogey-free Rounds: 2 (66 - Athens Classic, 66 - Buick Championship)
Under Par all 4 rounds: 1 (B.C. Open - 69, 71, 71, 70)

2006 Versus the Cut
PGA Tour - 2-6 (.250)
Nationwide Tour - 7-3 (.700)
"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:oajdf2deu3o6h173lr631fqs73tr91bj8k@4ax.com...
> On 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46 -0700, "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
>
>>No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
>>it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
>>a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
>>but he's not until he wins the 19th.
>
> Thinking of David Duval, I am reminded of another player who got a 59,
> albeit on the Nike tour, who didn't get as high, but who is fuzting
> around on the Nationwide now - Notah Begay. What happened to his
> game?

Date: 02 Sep 2006 11:40:47
From: Steven Paul
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

In article <%v_Jg.24133$5i3.14454@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net >,
THE Sandman <classcovers@att.net > wrote:

> my
> preparation for the Reno-Tahoe Open will be very diligent with an emphasis
> on addressing some of the weak spots in my game.

Apparently he missed a few. Surprisingly, he has more than five million
in carrer earnings. I wouldn't have guessed that.

Date: 02 Sep 2006 15:16:26
From: Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:54:10 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On 20 Aug 2006 21:07:46 -0700, "Bucky" <uw_badgers@email.com> wrote:
>
>>No. After he wins his 19th major, then he'll be the greatest ever. What
>>it somehow he gets David Duval syndrome and never makes another cut at
>>a major again. Yes, he's on track to become the greatest golfer ever,
>>but he's not until he wins the 19th.
>
>Thinking of David Duval, I am reminded of another player who got a 59,
>albeit on the Nike tour, who didn't get as high, but who is fuzting
>around on the Nationwide now - Notah Begay. What happened to his
>game?

Begay is a convicted violent drug criminal. Next question.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:39:55
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "TJM" <fuckoff@nospam.com > wrote:
>Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
>winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
>left in him if he stays healthy.

But probably only a dozen years or so of true excellence. And winning
seven more majors is no cinch. There are a lot of golfers, who would
be in everybody's top 25 of all time, who couldn't do it in their
entire careers. Trevino and Nelson, for starters. Palmer and Snead
barely made it.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:25:53
From: Mister Hand
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Ahh, look kids, a troll! Don't touch!

seatosummi...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Who gives a fuck. It is just animal eye-hand-coordination. WHy on earth
> do we glorify these chimps with good coordination?????? Send him back
> to the jungle so he can use his coordination to hunt.
>
> TJM wrote:
> > Will he be considered the greatest ever?
> >
> > Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
> > winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
> > left in him if he stays healthy.
> >
> > Discuss.....

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:22:26
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Who gives a fuck. It is just animal eye-hand-coordination. WHy on earth
do we glorify these chimps with good coordination?????? Send him back
to the jungle so he can use his coordination to hunt.

TJM wrote:
> Will he be considered the greatest ever?
>
> Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
> winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
> left in him if he stays healthy.
>
> Discuss.....

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:34:55
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 19:22:26 -0700, seatosummit28@yahoo.com wrote:
>Who gives a fuck. It is just animal eye-hand-coordination. WHy on earth
>do we glorify these chimps with good coordination??????

I've been saying the same thing about Peyton Manning. Nobody will
listen to me, either.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:19:48
From: Mister Hand
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Yeah. The seven guys who were at ten under or better played like shit.
So did the other thirty or so who were under par. Terrible scoring
for a major.

Otto wrote:
> Yeah.
>
> They really peaked today. <s>
>
> Is anyone besides Tiger playing golf?
>
> Otto
>
>
> "multi" <multi@asm.org> wrote in message
> news:lqnhe29ut08ql8aqgt8dijlv7mnfj7t4gu@4ax.com...
> > True. That's why they can all afford to pick and choose events so
> > that they peak for the majors, unlike the guys Jack was facing.
> >

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:07:04
From: mbryan9420@gmail.com
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Date: 21 Aug 2006 03:14:44
From: rich
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

<mbryan9420@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156126024.117430.125950@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> rich wrote:
>> <mbryan9420@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1156115242.900894.169650@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
>> > sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
>> > Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
>> > arent winning majors.
>>
>> That is because Tiger is winning them. Your argument boils down to,
>> "Tiger
>> would have better credentials as a great player if he lost more often,
>> like
>> Jack did".
>>
>> Rich
>
> Don't get me wrong, Tiger is the greatesest EVER. He could beat the
> best in history, no question. But the guys he is playing against today
> couldnt hold a candle to guys Nicklaus went up against.

Nonsense. Compare records at comparable times. You need to watch more of
the Golf Classic major replays on the Golf Channel.

Rich

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:29:15
From: Shivas
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> mbryan9420@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
> > sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
> > Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
> > arent winning majors.
>
> Exactly.
> Greater depth nowadays.More players winning Majors proving the
> difficulty
> in one player dominating today.
> The fact that Woods is,once again only adds to his legend.
> I dont understand why some people dont just enjoy genius at work,you
> should
> be happy your alive to witness the greatest.
> Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
> the record.
> So you may as well start accepting the facts now,before all you Tiger
> deniers start
> looking really stupid.

"More players winning Majors proving the
difficulty in one player dominating today."

This is a complety false statement. There are EXACTLY the same number
of different major winners since Tiger came on the scene compared to
when Jack was in his same year, EXACTLY. The depth argument is a
complete joke, name one great player today besides Tiger. Guys who barf
all over themselves on the final hole of a major with a 2 stroke lead
dont count.

Date: 21 Aug 2006 03:12:36
From: rich
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

"Shivas" <shivasfes@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156123755.617568.67000@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> This is a complety false statement. There are EXACTLY the same number
> of different major winners since Tiger came on the scene compared to
> when Jack was in his same year, EXACTLY. The depth argument is a
> complete joke, name one great player today besides Tiger. Guys who barf
> all over themselves on the final hole of a major with a 2 stroke lead
> dont count.

So this pretty well lets out Palmer.

The good old days weren't as good as you think you remember.

Rich

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:25:39
From: Shivas
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
> > On 20 Aug 2006 15:05:58 -0700, "Shivas" <shivasfes@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I tend to agree with Jack, it just seems like these guys arent hungry.
> > >You can get a few top 10 finishes these days and be a millionaire, you
> > >dont even have to win to live a very nice life. If you go back just to
> > >1980 Tom Watson won 7 tournaments and had 16 top 10's and made half a
> > >million.
> > >"Concentration comes out of a combination of confidence and hunger." -
> > >Arnie
> >
> > Alternatively, the golfers nowadays have much less incentive to come
> > in #2. When you have enough money, the extra money between coming
> > in 2nd, and taking a gamble, risking coming in #10 isn't as important
> > as it was in Olden Dayze when that difference fed your family.
> >
> > Rich golfers don't play it safe to maintain 2nd place.
>
> How many Majors has Tiger won since HE became a millionaire?
> Theres one guy who's still hungry.So you can save that argument.
> I'd be surprised if Sergio,Monty and many others wouldn't trade a few
> of there millions for at least one Major title.
> Or are you saying players these days rate money over Majors?
> I think not

Tiger is the ONLY ONE hungry enought to go after them and do whatever
it takes to get prepared mentally and physically for the challenge. Do
you honestly think Phil is doing everything he could possibly do? Look
at the guy, he's a fat slob. If he lost 50 lbs and lifted some weights
instead of Big Macs, he might have a shot. He has all the talent in the
world, and probably could beat Tiger on a regular basis if he really
put his mind to it.

There are exactly as many different Major winners since Tiger came on
tour as when Jack was in his same year on tour so the depth argument is
just ridiculous. There were more GREAT players in Jacks era than
today, there are way more GOOD player today then in Jacks era.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:11:23
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Wasn't it Nicklaus who said that one day Tiger would "win more
tournaments" than he and Arnie combined? If so, is anyone who denies
Woods as the best golfer of all time basically denying the opinion of
Jack Nicklaus himself? Seriously though, it's not like a switch will
be turned on as soon as Tiger ties JN in major wins to affirm his
greatness. He is already there. Most people consider MJ the greatest
basketball player of all time, despite Kareem having more points and
Russell having more titles. What do stats like that really have to do
with greatness???

Tony wrote:
> Speaking of fading legends, think for a moment about the several other
> golfers who were rated #1 in the Tiger era. VJ and Duval? They didn't
> have staying power.
>
> I haven't done the analysis, but suspect even in Jack's best year his
> scoring average wasn't as much ahead of the next best player than Woods
> might be.
>
> The thing that's interesting to do is, not referring to the records of
> anyone, decide on some 'figure of merit' that makes sense. Does scoring
> average do that? How about percent of wins vs starts. Some kind of
> handicap index? Choose something at arm's length, then look to the
> records of the potential greatest golfers.
>
>
>
>
> multi wrote:
> > On 20 Aug 2006 16:47:27 -0700, "Big_Fan" <bigpufan@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Howard Brazee wrote:
> > >> On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
> > >> >the record.
> > >>
> > >> How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
> > >> as Jack was when he won #13?
> > >
> > >This is the end of Tiger's 10th year. Jack won his 13th at the end of
> > >his 14th year, but won three in a row, so he won his 15th mid-year in
> > >his 15th year.
> >
> > I can't figure out what you're talking about. Jack never won three
> > majors in a row, and he won his 15th major in his 17th year on tour,
> > three years after he won his 14th.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:02:33
From: Tony
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Speaking of fading legends, think for a moment about the several other
golfers who were rated #1 in the Tiger era. VJ and Duval? They didn't
have staying power.

I haven't done the analysis, but suspect even in Jack's best year his
scoring average wasn't as much ahead of the next best player than Woods
might be.

The thing that's interesting to do is, not referring to the records of
anyone, decide on some 'figure of merit' that makes sense. Does scoring
average do that? How about percent of wins vs starts. Some kind of
handicap index? Choose something at arm's length, then look to the
records of the potential greatest golfers.

multi wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 16:47:27 -0700, "Big_Fan" <bigpufan@aol.com> wrote:
> >Howard Brazee wrote:
> >> On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >> >Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
> >> >the record.
> >>
> >> How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
> >> as Jack was when he won #13?
> >
> >This is the end of Tiger's 10th year. Jack won his 13th at the end of
> >his 14th year, but won three in a row, so he won his 15th mid-year in
> >his 15th year.
>
> I can't figure out what you're talking about. Jack never won three
> majors in a row, and he won his 15th major in his 17th year on tour,
> three years after he won his 14th.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:19:09
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 18:02:33 -0700, "Tony" <ajw27703@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Speaking of fading legends, think for a moment about the several other
>golfers who were rated #1 in the Tiger era. VJ and Duval? They didn't
>have staying power.

VJ is understandable. Not only is he old for a PGA golfer, but he was
number one only because Tiger went into a mini-slump. Duval is a
complete mystery. The only golfer who fell faster and further in his
prime was Ben Hogan, and even he came back.

>I haven't done the analysis, but suspect even in Jack's best year his
>scoring average wasn't as much ahead of the next best player than Woods
>might be.

Jack never won the Vardon, and even the massed minds of RSG don't know
why.

>The thing that's interesting to do is, not referring to the records of
>anyone, decide on some 'figure of merit' that makes sense. Does scoring
>average do that? How about percent of wins vs starts. Some kind of
>handicap index? Choose something at arm's length, then look to the
>records of the potential greatest golfers.

Can't be done. Every stat has some problem, and even if you found one
that was fair, people would always fall back on how strong the
competition was. IMO you need to look at a bunch of stats -- wins,
majors, margins of victory, POYs, earnings leader, scoring average,
etc.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 17:26:50
From: daveholo
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:

> > Alternatively, the golfers nowadays have much less incentive to come
> > in #2. When you have enough money, the extra money between coming
> > in 2nd, and taking a gamble, risking coming in #10 isn't as important
> > as it was in Olden Dayze when that difference fed your family.
> >
> > Rich golfers don't play it safe to maintain 2nd place.
>
> How many Majors has Tiger won since HE became a millionaire?
> Theres one guy who's still hungry.So you can save that argument.
> I'd be surprised if Sergio,Monty and many others wouldn't trade a few
> of there millions for at least one Major title.
> Or are you saying players these days rate money over Majors?
> I think not

After a couple of wins, or 4 or 5 top 10's, you're well-to-do enough
that it isn't about money, it's about the fire in your belly. Tiger
was rich before he swung a club as a pro. He's never worried about the
money. He's only concerned with the W's. He'll be 5 strokes up and
smack his club if he hits a dog of a shot.

All of the top-tier golfers are wealthy. They worry more about their
win totals than the money differential between the non-winners. They
have little incentive to protect a second place finish. The difference
in second place money and fourth place money isn't very significant to
them. The difference between a W and a T-2 is huge for their records,
their egos, their "place in history.", etc ....

Hypothetically: Last pairing of the day gets to the 18th at -10 and
-11. Co-leader in the clubhouse at -11. Third place in the clubhouse
at -9. You think the guy at -10 is playing for a par? I doubt it. I'm
not even sure if the guy at -11 is playing for par if it's Tiger in the
clubhouse with the lead.

Dave
http://www.holotradband.com

Date: 20 Aug 2006 17:34:24
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 17:26:50 -0700, "daveholo" <dave_holo@yahoo.com > wrote:
>They
>have little incentive to protect a second place finish. The difference
>in second place money and fourth place money isn't very significant to
>them. The difference between a W and a T-2 is huge for their records,
>their egos, their "place in history.", etc ....

Bingo. The reason Tiger's competition "collapses" on Sunday is
because they know he isn't going to come back to them, so they are
forced to shoot for the pins, and the pins are in the most difficult
positions. The result is a lot of bogeys.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 16:51:07
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 15:05:58 -0700, "Shivas" <shivasfes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I tend to agree with Jack, it just seems like these guys arent hungry.
> >You can get a few top 10 finishes these days and be a millionaire, you
> >dont even have to win to live a very nice life. If you go back just to
> >1980 Tom Watson won 7 tournaments and had 16 top 10's and made half a
> >million.
> >"Concentration comes out of a combination of confidence and hunger." -
> >Arnie
>
> Alternatively, the golfers nowadays have much less incentive to come
> in #2. When you have enough money, the extra money between coming
> in 2nd, and taking a gamble, risking coming in #10 isn't as important
> as it was in Olden Dayze when that difference fed your family.
>
> Rich golfers don't play it safe to maintain 2nd place.

How many Majors has Tiger won since HE became a millionaire?
Theres one guy who's still hungry.So you can save that argument.
I'd be surprised if Sergio,Monty and many others wouldn't trade a few
of there millions for at least one Major title.
Or are you saying players these days rate money over Majors?
I think not

Date: 20 Aug 2006 16:47:27
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> >Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
> >the record.
>
> How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
> as Jack was when he won #13?

This is the end of Tiger's 10th year. Jack won his 13th at the end of
his 14th year, but won three in a row, so he won his 15th mid-year in
his 15th year.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 17:20:57
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 16:47:27 -0700, "Big_Fan" <bigpufan@aol.com > wrote:
>Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> >Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
>> >the record.
>>
>> How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
>> as Jack was when he won #13?
>
>This is the end of Tiger's 10th year. Jack won his 13th at the end of
>his 14th year, but won three in a row, so he won his 15th mid-year in
>his 15th year.

I can't figure out what you're talking about. Jack never won three
majors in a row, and he won his 15th major in his 17th year on tour,
three years after he won his 14th.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

mbryan9420@gmail.com wrote:
> Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
> sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
> Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
> arent winning majors.

Exactly.
Greater depth nowadays.More players winning Majors proving the
difficulty
in one player dominating today.
The fact that Woods is,once again only adds to his legend.
I dont understand why some people dont just enjoy genius at work,you
should
be happy your alive to witness the greatest.
Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
the record.
So you may as well start accepting the facts now,before all you Tiger
deniers start
looking really stupid.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 23:44:21
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
>the record.

How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
as Jack was when he won #13?

Date: 20 Aug 2006 16:07:22
From: mbryan9420@gmail.com
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
arent winning majors.

Date: 21 Aug 2006 03:07:51
From: rich
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

<mbryan9420@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156115242.900894.169650@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
> sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
> Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
> arent winning majors.

This is an absurd argument.

During Jack's first 40 majors he won 10, and:

Players winning 3 majors: 2 Player & Trevino
Players winning 2 majors: 4 Palmer, Casper, Boros, & Jacklin
Players winning 1 major: 16 various

During Tiger's first 40 majors he won 12, and:

Players winning 3 majors: 2 Phil & Vijay
Players winning 2 majors: 3 Els, O'Meara, & Goosen
Players winning 1 major: 16 various

So if Tiger has the good sense to lose one of his majors to, say, Furyk the
records would be identical other than Tiger's extra win. Note that Watson
doesn't even come into it, as he never won a major during Jack's first 40?
And that there are players during Tiger's 40 that won just as many majors as
the players you cite, Palmer, Player and Trevino.

You cannot compare one player's competitors' records over a 25 year period
to another player's competitors' records over a 10-year period. But if we
compare the records over like, 10 year, periods there is absolutely no truth
to the "better competition" argument for Nicklaus. Tiger's competition has
similar records. If tiger had blown a couple of leads then his competitors
would have an even better record.

Will any of the guys who won majors during Tiger's first 40 win as many as
Player or Trevino? Or Watson? No way of knowing. Maybe Adam Scott will
win 8 before Tiger is done. Maybe not. Maybe Sergio will. Or Ogilvy. But
we don't know, and at a similar point in Jack's career we didn't know about
Player, Trevino, or Watson.

Rich

Date: 20 Aug 2006 20:28:24
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 03:07:51 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com > wrote:

>During Jack's first 40 majors he won 10, and:
>
> Players winning 3 majors: 2 Player & Trevino
> Players winning 2 majors: 4 Palmer, Casper, Boros, & Jacklin
> Players winning 1 major: 16 various
>
>During Tiger's first 40 majors he won 12, and:
>
> Players winning 3 majors: 2 Phil & Vijay
> Players winning 2 majors: 3 Els, O'Meara, & Goosen
> Players winning 1 major: 16 various
>
>So if Tiger has the good sense to lose one of his majors to, say, Furyk the
>records would be identical other than Tiger's extra win.

Nope, the rules say you can only give his extra majors to people who
finished second when he won. Furyk didn't, but Phil, Goosen, and Els
(twice) are eligible. So give one to Phil, and one to Goosen, and you
have competition that is clearly stronger than Jack's:

Players winning 4 majors: 1 Phil
Players winning 3 majors: 2 Goosen & Vijay
Players winning 2 majors: 2 Els & O'Meara
Players winning 1 major: 16 various

Date: 21 Aug 2006 01:49:41
From: rich
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Date: 20 Aug 2006 15:44:19
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

If Tiger never wins another Major,he should still be considered the
greatest.
Jack had it far easier.
Much greater depth of talent nowadays.
If you apply the scientific calculation for such things,i'm sure you
would
find that Mr Woods is now on roughly 21-22 Majors,when calculated
against JN.
So game over.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 15:52:46
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 15:44:19 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>If Tiger never wins another Major,he should still be considered the
>greatest.
>Jack had it far easier.
>Much greater depth of talent nowadays.
>If you apply the scientific calculation for such things,i'm sure you
>would
>find that Mr Woods is now on roughly 21-22 Majors,when calculated
>against JN.

Plus, Jack didn't have that squirrelly little psychologist from TGC to
tell him how to play.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:13:17
From: long&left
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

multi wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 15:44:19 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>>If Tiger never wins another Major,he should still be considered the
>>greatest.
>>Jack had it far easier.
>>Much greater depth of talent nowadays.
>>If you apply the scientific calculation for such things,i'm sure you
>>would
>>find that Mr Woods is now on roughly 21-22 Majors,when calculated
>>against JN.
>
>
> Plus, Jack didn't have that squirrelly little psychologist from TGC to
> tell him how to play.

HEY! don't pick on my buddy Gio V!

Date: 20 Aug 2006 15:05:58
From: Shivas
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

multi wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "TJM" <fuckoff@nospam.com> wrote:
> >Will he be considered the greatest ever?
>
> After all he's done, anybody who doesn't already consider him the
> greatest ever won't be impressed by anything less than breaking either
> Jack's or Sam's all-time records. A few old diehards won't give up
> even after he breaks both.
>
> >Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
> >winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
> >left in him if he stays healthy.
>
> Winning even one major isn't easy, considering the long list of very
> good golfers who haven't done it. And I think the dumbest thing Jack
> ever said was that it's easier for Tiger than it was for him. By his
> own admission, Jack felt no pressure to win majors until after his
> tenth, and at that point he only needed one more to tie the record.
> The pressure on Tiger when he gets to 15 or so will be unbelievable.

I tend to agree with Jack, it just seems like these guys arent hungry.
You can get a few top 10 finishes these days and be a millionaire, you
dont even have to win to live a very nice life. If you go back just to
1980 Tom Watson won 7 tournaments and had 16 top 10's and made half a
million.
"Concentration comes out of a combination of confidence and hunger." -
Arnie

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:39:45
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Tiger seemed to have "coasted" a while, recently, for one reason or
another, but now he sees the handwriting on the wall, and it appears to
be uphill both ways for him.

He can handle it, that is if things stay together, and Steve doesn't
"crash".:--)

>mho
>v fe

>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"d R i V e =A0L e $ s"

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:14:39
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

The way to keep a dog hunting is to keep him hungary, the same applies
to pros, keep 'em broke-ish, and they'll play harder.

And, some become too avid at the game, and blow themselves out of the
tub, so you have to temper your aggressiveness.

For those whose get up and go has gotten up and went, please
disregard.:--)

>mho
>v fe

>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"d R i V e =A0L e $ s"

Date: 20 Aug 2006 23:43:05
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 15:05:58 -0700, "Shivas" <shivasfes@gmail.com > wrote:

>I tend to agree with Jack, it just seems like these guys arent hungry.
>You can get a few top 10 finishes these days and be a millionaire, you
>dont even have to win to live a very nice life. If you go back just to
>1980 Tom Watson won 7 tournaments and had 16 top 10's and made half a
>million.
>"Concentration comes out of a combination of confidence and hunger." -
>Arnie

Alternatively, the golfers nowadays have much less incentive to come
in #2. When you have enough money, the extra money between coming
in 2nd, and taking a gamble, risking coming in #10 isn't as important
as it was in Olden Dayze when that difference fed your family.

Rich golfers don't play it safe to maintain 2nd place.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 15:18:24
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On 20 Aug 2006 15:05:58 -0700, "Shivas" <shivasfes@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>multi wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "TJM" <fuckoff@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >Will he be considered the greatest ever?
>>
>> After all he's done, anybody who doesn't already consider him the
>> greatest ever won't be impressed by anything less than breaking either
>> Jack's or Sam's all-time records. A few old diehards won't give up
>> even after he breaks both.
>>
>> >Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
>> >winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
>> >left in him if he stays healthy.
>>
>> Winning even one major isn't easy, considering the long list of very
>> good golfers who haven't done it. And I think the dumbest thing Jack
>> ever said was that it's easier for Tiger than it was for him. By his
>> own admission, Jack felt no pressure to win majors until after his
>> tenth, and at that point he only needed one more to tie the record.
>> The pressure on Tiger when he gets to 15 or so will be unbelievable.
>
>I tend to agree with Jack, it just seems like these guys arent hungry.
>You can get a few top 10 finishes these days and be a millionaire, you
>dont even have to win to live a very nice life.

True. That's why they can all afford to pick and choose events so
that they peak for the majors, unlike the guys Jack was facing.

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:21:47
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

>unlike the guys Jack was facing.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
It might be a comparison of sorts, but it is hard for me to compare
Nicklaus' record with Tigers, when they both have paid the price to
achieve their standing in golf.

Not sure they both traveled the same route / the same way.

Both are to be highly commended.

>mho
>v fe

>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"d R i V e =A0L e $ s"

Date: 20 Aug 2006 18:32:43
From: Otto
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

Yeah.

They really peaked today. <s >

Is anyone besides Tiger playing golf?

Otto

"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:lqnhe29ut08ql8aqgt8dijlv7mnfj7t4gu@4ax.com...
> True. That's why they can all afford to pick and choose events so
> that they peak for the majors, unlike the guys Jack was facing.
>

Date: 20 Aug 2006 19:25:54
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

>Is anyone besides Tiger playing golf?
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Otto is.

but of course when you are anti-hybrid, no one notices.:--)

>mho
>v fe

>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"d R i V e =A0L e $ s"

Date: 20 Aug 2006 13:49:31
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

TJM wrote:
> Will he be considered the greatest ever?
>
> Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
> winning tournaments.

it's funny,

as soon as Tiger wins two in a row everyone thinks he's going win 20 in
a row

as soon as Tiger loses two in a row everyone thinks he lost his edge,
needs a new swing fix, etc etc

straight line interpolation

Date: 20 Aug 2006 11:42:00
From: multi
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "TJM" <fuckoff@nospam.com > wrote:
>Will he be considered the greatest ever?

After all he's done, anybody who doesn't already consider him the
greatest ever won't be impressed by anything less than breaking either
Jack's or Sam's all-time records. A few old diehards won't give up
even after he breaks both.

>Reaching Jack's 18 majors now seems easier than ever for him at the pace he's
>winning tournaments. For piss sake, he has another 25 yrs. of professional golf
>left in him if he stays healthy.

Winning even one major isn't easy, considering the long list of very
good golfers who haven't done it. And I think the dumbest thing Jack
ever said was that it's easier for Tiger than it was for him. By his
own admission, Jack felt no pressure to win majors until after his
tenth, and at that point he only needed one more to tie the record.
The pressure on Tiger when he gets to 15 or so will be unbelievable.

Date: 21 Aug 2006 09:19:14
From: JJVP
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

rich wrote:
> <mbryan9420@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156115242.900894.169650@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Ya Jack had it so easy, Palmer, Player, Watson, Trevino. There are
> > sooooo many great players on the tour today right? Where are they?
> > Winning the Booze Allen Classic, or the John Deere? They certainly
> > arent winning majors.
>
> This is an absurd argument.
>
> During Jack's first 40 majors he won 10, and:
>
> Players winning 3 majors: 2 Player & Trevino
> Players winning 2 majors: 4 Palmer, Casper, Boros, & Jacklin
> Players winning 1 major: 16 various
>
> During Tiger's first 40 majors he won 12, and:
>
> Players winning 3 majors: 2 Phil & Vijay
> Players winning 2 majors: 3 Els, O'Meara, & Goosen
> Players winning 1 major: 16 various
>
> So if Tiger has the good sense to lose one of his majors to, say, Furyk the
> records would be identical other than Tiger's extra win. Note that Watson
> doesn't even come into it, as he never won a major during Jack's first 40?
> And that there are players during Tiger's 40 that won just as many majors as
> the players you cite, Palmer, Player and Trevino.
>
> You cannot compare one player's competitors' records over a 25 year period
> to another player's competitors' records over a 10-year period. But if we
> compare the records over like, 10 year, periods there is absolutely no truth
> to the "better competition" argument for Nicklaus. Tiger's competition has
> similar records. If tiger had blown a couple of leads then his competitors
> would have an even better record.
>
> Will any of the guys who won majors during Tiger's first 40 win as many as
> Player or Trevino? Or Watson? No way of knowing. Maybe Adam Scott will
> win 8 before Tiger is done. Maybe not. Maybe Sergio will. Or Ogilvy. But
> we don't know, and at a similar point in Jack's career we didn't know about
> Player, Trevino, or Watson.
>
> Rich

Something is wrong in your chart. Jack won 9 majors on his first 40,
not 10.

JJVP

Date: 21 Aug 2006 08:32:33
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

multi wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 16:47:27 -0700, "Big_Fan" <bigpufan@aol.com> wrote:
> >Howard Brazee wrote:
> >> On 20 Aug 2006 16:34:43 -0700, hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >> >Tiger could go the next 3 years Majorless and still be on course for
> >> >the record.
> >>
> >> How many majors can he lose before he needs to win #13 at the same age
> >> as Jack was when he won #13?
> >
> >This is the end of Tiger's 10th year. Jack won his 13th at the end of
> >his 14th year, but won three in a row, so he won his 15th mid-year in
> >his 15th year.
>
> I can't figure out what you're talking about. Jack never won three
> majors in a row, and he won his 15th major in his 17th year on tour,
> three years after he won his 14th.

Apparently I can't figure out what I'm talking about either. Jack did
win his 13th and 14th in his 14th year.

I got a little mixed up looking at the wins for 1971 and 1972 (which
weren't even the years I meant to look at). Jack won the PGA in 1971
and the Masters and US Open in 1972, looking like three in a row, but I
didn't realize they had moved the 1971 PGA to February that year.

Jack's major capsule:
http://www.nicklaus.com/nicklaus_facts/majors.php

Date: 21 Aug 2006 05:10:16
From:
Subject: Re: If Tiger wins PGA today for his 12th Major........

hunnma@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> How many Majors has Tiger won since HE became a millionaire?
> Theres one guy who's still hungry.So you can save that argument.
> I'd be surprised if Sergio,Monty and many others wouldn't trade a few
> of there millions for at least one Major title.
> Or are you saying players these days rate money over Majors?
> I think not

With his endoresment deals Tiger was set for money befor ehe even
joined the tour. So money isn't his incentive.

Date: 31 Aug 2006 22:42:33
From: Tighthead
Subject: Re: Begay's drop

sfb wrote:
> My recollection was Arizona allows work release for DUI and since Begay is a
> professional golfer .....
>
> Rome and all the other sports radio gossips would not be on the air unless
> the could make mountains out of molehills.
>

He wasn't giving lessons - he would go to his club, hit balls, have
lunch, play 18, etc. It was pretty cushy.

Notah was contrite and handled it well, but it was also his second
charge.

He has had serious back problems. He showed lots of promise early - I
think he made a President's cup team.