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Date: 09 Dec 2006 03:52:29
From: Carbon
Subject: Hillary's too vane to be president
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I (normally) never start these threads, but I thought the following
editorial was interesting: http://tinyurl.com/vozc3
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-huffington7dec07,0,7649537.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 05:20:33
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: Iraq vs. US
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On 8-Dec-2006, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote:
> In the last 3 years Iraq people have killed 650,000 Iraq people
Bogus numbers, bogus grammar
--
bill-o
A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 06:12:32
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Iraq vs. US
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"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:457a2d68$0$91106$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:Km1eh.1278$BL4.1248@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>> So in three years AMERICANS have killed close to 50,000 fellow
>> Americans.
>>
>> In the same last three years, about 3000 Americans have been killed in
>> Iraq.
>
> In the last 3 years Iraq people have killed 650,000 Iraq people
> You said you care about human life.
> You don't care about Iraq people?
> Or is 650,000 not important?
1) You believe those numbers?
2) Do you care about human life?
3) Do you believe the invasion of D-day was "worth it?"
4) Do you realize you totally missed my point?
I'll answer what you'll say:
1) Yes (statistically accurate plus or minus 10000%)
2) Possibly. But by hiding from problems, living in a "gated" community,
other people's problems are not mine.
3) No, too many Americans killed. We could have brought everyone home.
4) What WAS your point?
(that's just it: you missed it! A simple "wow! for anyone simply to think
about!)
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 06:55:37
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Iraq vs. US
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"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:xSweh.3411$hD6.2039@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:457a2d68$0$91106$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>> news:Km1eh.1278$BL4.1248@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>> So in three years AMERICANS have killed close to 50,000 fellow
>>> Americans.
>>>
>>> In the same last three years, about 3000 Americans have been killed in
>>> Iraq.
>>
>> In the last 3 years Iraq people have killed 650,000 Iraq people
>> You said you care about human life.
>> You don't care about Iraq people?
>> Or is 650,000 not important?
Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction. 300,000 civilians, was it?
Brad - or whoever: the VERY DAY that we entered that arena I happened to
read in the book of Exodus a series of warnings: they all started with "woe
to you if...." and there were some pretty serious no-nos listed.
One of them read: "Woe to you if you find your neighbor's life in danger and
you fail to come to his assistance." I was deeply struck by that, as I do
consider myself a neighbor to the innocents in Iraq, Darfur, Israel, Harlem,
Somalia, Watts, China, and ..... and I served voluntarily in Korea to
assist our neighbors there. You may remember WE were not attacked in So.
Korea...
Nowadays we have a much thornier problem: those who oppose peace now do not
stand on THAT side of the fence wearing Red uniforms and identifying
themselves [you guys stand there and we'll stand here and let's shoot at
each other]: they move among us, they hide in churches and streets and
buildings next to us, they hide their weapons in schools, they use ICBMs,
and they kill for the sake of killing.
If you have the answer, please tell the president and the pentagon. Of if
you think: it will go away if WE go away, well, ..... What's the saying
about freedom isn't free? The human lives given in one generation provide
the privileges of freedom for the next one - or something similar.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 11:12:18
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iraq vs. US
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George Hibbard wrote:
> Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction.
Saddam was horrible. The people in Iraq should have risen up against him
and stopped him. Be it his army or a civilian population. USA always seems
to think that when a ruler crosses the line and becomes a threat to his own
people; that USA troops should be the ones to take over for the locals and
right the wrongs of the planet. If Saddam's actions against the Kurds
were not important enough to 500,000 armed Iraqi troops and 28,000,000 Iraqi
citizens; then it shouldn't have been important enough for 4,000 American
troops to die half a planet away.
"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and
harmony with all... The Nation which indulges toward another an habitual
hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to
its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it
astray from its duty and its interest ... Tis our true policy to steer clear
of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." - George
Washington, Farewell Address, 17 Sept. 1796 .
"America... well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her
own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve
herself beyond the power of extraction, in all the wars of interest and
intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors
and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy
would insensibly change from liberty to force... She might become dictatress
of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit." - John
Quincy Adams; Address, 4 July 1821
"I hope we may still keep clear of [the broils of Europe],... and that time
may be given us to... find some means of shielding ourselves in future from
foreign influence, political, commercial, or in whatever other form it may
be attempted. I can scarcely withhold myself from joining in the wish of
Silas Deane that there were an ocean of fire between us and the old
world." --Thomas Jefferson, 1797.
"Do what is right, leaving the people of Europe to act their follies and
crimes among themselves, while we pursue in good faith the paths of peace
and prosperity." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823.
"I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none,
and little or no diplomatic establishment. And I am not for linking
ourselves by new treaties with the quarrels of Europe, entering that field
of slaughter to preserve their balance, or joining in the confederacy of
Kings to war against the principles of liberty."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799.
"I have ever deemed it fundamental for the United States never to take
active part in the quarrels of Europe. Their political interests are
entirely distinct from ours. Their mutual jealousies, their balance of
power, their complicated alliances, their forms and principles of
government, are all foreign to us. They are nations of eternal war. All
their energies are expended in the destruction of the labor, property and
lives of their people." --Thomas Jefferson to James
Monroe, 1823.
"I sincerely join... in abjuring all political connection with every
foreign power; and though I cordially wish well to the progress of liberty
in all nations, and would forever give it the weight of our countenance,
yet they are not to be touched without contamination from their other bad
principles. Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our
motto." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Lomax, 1799.
"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling
alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our
government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its
administration." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801.
"We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country, nor with
the general affairs of Europe. Peace with all nations, and the right which
that gives us with respect to all nations, are our object." --Thomas
Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1793.
"I wish that all nations may recover and retain their independence; that
those which are overgrown may not advance beyond safe measures of power;
that a salutary balance may be ever maintained among nations; and that our
peace, commerce and friendship may be sought and cultivated by
all." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Leiper, 1815.
"I see... not much harm in annihilating the whole treaty-making power
except as to making peace" --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1796.
"We wish to let every treaty we have drop off without renewal... The
interest which European nations feel as well as ourselves in the mutual
patronage of commercial intercourse is a sufficient stimulus on both sides
to ensure that patronage. A treaty contrary to that interest renders war
necessary to get rid of it." --Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1801.
"Nothing is so important as that America shall separate herself from the
systems of Europe, and establish one of her own. Our circumstances, our
pursuits, our interests, are distinct. The principles of our policy should
be so also. All entanglements with that quarter of the globe should be
avoided if we mean that peace and
justice shall be the polar stars of the American societies." --Thomas
Jefferson to J. Correa de Serra, 1820.
"It ought to be the very first object of our pursuits to have nothing to do
with the European interests and politics. Let them be free or slaves at
will, navigators or agriculturists, swallowed into one government or
divided into a thousand, we have nothing to fear from them in any
orm." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1801.
"Our nation has wisely avoided entangling itself in the system of European
interests, has taken no side between its rival powers, attached itself to
none of its ever-changing confederacies." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore
Baptists, 1808.
"The fundamental principle of our government [is] never to entangle us with
the broils of Europe." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823.
"Our first and fundamental maxim should be never to entangle ourselves in
the broils of Europe. Our second, never to suffer Europe to intermeddle
with
cross-Atlantic affairs. America, North and South, has a set of interests
distinct from those of Europe and peculiarly her own. She should therefore
have a system of her own, separate and apart from that of Europe. While the
last is laboring to become the domicile of despotism, our endeavor should
surely be to make our hemisphere that of freedom." --Thomas Jefferson to
James Monroe, 1823.
"Exhortations to avoid taking part in the war... raging in Europe... were
a confirmation of the policy I had myself pursued, and which I thought and
still think should be the governing canon of our republic." --Thomas
Jefferson to Mme de Stael-Holstein, 1815.
"I hope we may still keep clear of [the broils of Europe],... and that time
may be given us to... find some means of shielding ourselves in future from
foreign influence, political, commercial, or in whatever other form it may
be attempted. I can scarcely withhold myself from joining in the wish of
Silas Deane that there were an ocean of fire between us and the old
world." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1797.
"[Our] object [in this hemisphere] is to introduce and establish the
American system, of keeping out of our land all foreign powers, of never
permitting those of Europe to intermeddle with the affairs of our
nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823.
"We begin to broach the idea that we consider the whole Gulf Stream as of
our waters, in which hostilities and cruising are to be frowned on for the
present, and prohibited so soon as either consent or force will permit us.
We shall never permit another privateer to cruise within it, and shall
forbid our harbors to national cruisers. This is essential for our
tranquillity and commerce." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1806.
"When our strength will permit us to give the law of our hemisphere, it
should be that the meridian of the mid-Atlantic should be the line of
demarkation between war and peace, on this side of which no act of hostility
should be committed, and the lion and the lamb lie down in peace
together." --Thomas Jefferson to John Crawford, 1812.
"We aim not at the acquisition of any of [Europe's American]
possessions,... we will not stand in the way of any amicable arrangement
between them
and the Mother country; but... we will oppose, with all our means, the
forcible interposition of any other power, as auxiliary, stipendiary, or
under any other form or pretext, and most especially, their transfer to any
power by conquest, cession, or acquisition in any other way." --Thomas
Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823.
"Our attachment to no nation on earth should supplant our attachment to
liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration on Taking Up Arms, 1775.
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Date: 09 Dec 2006 07:20:25
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iraq vs. US
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On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:55:37 -0500, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>Saddam himself was a weapon of mass destruction. 300,000 civilians, was it?
So we've killed about twice as many in three years as he did in 20.
Cool. That might be even more impressive than the fact that we wailed
about Saddam skimming $2 billion over eight years or so from his own
oil sales, and then allowed Halliburton and the other Bush cronies to
lose $9 billion of US taxpayer money in two years. That's not the
overspending and waste, which was bad enough. That's money completely
unaccounted for and lost, nobody knows where, except for tales of
duffel bags full of C-notes going home with people.
>Brad - or whoever: the VERY DAY that we entered that arena I happened to
>read in the book of Exodus a series of warnings: they all started with "woe
>to you if...." and there were some pretty serious no-nos listed.
>
>One of them read: "Woe to you if you find your neighbor's life in danger and
>you fail to come to his assistance." I was deeply struck by that, as I do
>consider myself a neighbor to the innocents in Iraq, Darfur, Israel, Harlem,
>Somalia, Watts, China, and .....
It also says this in Exodus 31:15 --- "Six days may work be done; but
in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever
doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
If you're so worried about your neighbors and the Word of God, why not
kill your neighbor the next time he mows his lawn on a Sunday (or
Saturday, depending on your interpretation of the eternal and
unchanging Scriptures).
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