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Main
Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:14:48
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Flat wrist or dish angle?
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There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish angle
in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
swing.
Both of them relate to the leverage/control/hold of the left hand on the
club. To understand the first reason, imagine hanging from a bar with your
left hand. When your weight hangs from the bar your wrist will neither cup
severely nor bow: its "center" and your most secure hold on the bar will be
such that the back of your hand will be dish angled. The bar itself will be
IN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN the two lines of extension of the back of your forearm
and the inside surface of the forearm. In other words, if you draw straight
lines along the dorsal and palmar sides of your forearm, the bar will center
itself halfway between the two. Were you to try to cup your wrist or bow
it, the bar would no longer be IN LINE with the bones - it would be in a
weakened relationship to the arm that is pulling the bar, or in the case of
a golf club, exerting force on the grip. This is seriously important at the
top because that is the instant when you really DO start to apply major
force against the club--clearly it will be getting pulled.
The other leverage/control issue is what happens AT THE BASE OF YOUR ULNA -
under the "heel" of the hand. If the end of the grip is not FIRMly
supported BY A DOWNWARD PRESSURE of the end of the ulna pulled up by the
upward squeezing/pull of the four fingers of your hand,--i.e., squeezed
BETWEEN the phalanxes of those four fingers and the meaty part of the hand
near 0the pinkie side of your palm, it can slip out. If that were to occur,
you lose the ability to hold the club UP into your hand - the grip COULD
"slip out" from your hand even if you sqeeze hard with your fingers IF THERE
IS NOTHING ATOP THE GRIP at that instant against which to press. The
location of the end of the grip PRECISELY POSITIONED at the END of that base
of your hand gives it a security from slipping there. It COULD slip out if
the back of the hand is truly flat with the back of the forearm: THAT
position is a WEAKER one because the grip is no longer under the heel pad:
it would have to be somewhat beside it UNsupported by the base of the ulna
bone.
So these are the two reasons why a very small dish angle is superior to a
flat left wrist. AND the subtlety of the difference between feeling that
security, and feeling something less secure that would be the case with a
FLAT wrist (a feeling in most cases too subtle for you to be aware of the
difference), will cause your neuromuscular reactions to make you back off of
a fully exuberant swing effort when it does sense the inherent weakness of
the grip. Your hold on the club fails to give permission for the full
effort you could apply to the grip because it senses that you could "lose"
the club if a lot of pull was applied to it.
There is no question that making this post will start a firestorm. Besides
that, it is SO off topic, being posted in rec.sport.golf, which is, of
course, about everything else except golf.
Ad personam responses will be ignored: ad rems are welcomed.
George Hibbard
www.perfectimpact.com
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 06:26:53
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
Mr.Hibbard,
I respect your opinions and ideas. But can you please be more accurate
with your terms. This 'cupped left wrist', are you referring to a left
wrist that is bent ? It would be more helpful if you could use more
descriptive terms.
So if you want the left wrist bent at the top, you implied that it
flattens going down, correct ?
If that is the case, then do you agree that it is absolutely essential
to have the left wrist flat at impact....regardless of what condition
it was in prior to impact? What happens when we contact the ball with
a bent left wrist ?
That leaves no interpretation or guessing. The statment is very clear:
The left wrist must be flat at impact. Not flattening, or in the
process of going from cupped to whatever. Just flat. It is either
flat, or it is not flat.
It is just my opinion that adding a bent left wrist at the top of the
backswing requires a compensation on the downswing to get the left
wrist flat at impact. I think you mentioned that the weight of the
club causes it to flatten. I'm sure that can work. But I will go with
science and precise alignments, instead of relying on my downswing
(which is a very quick instant) to create them.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 11:18:59
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1163255213.019768.130770@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Mr.Hibbard,
>
> I respect your opinions and ideas. But can you please be more accurate
> with your terms. This 'cupped left wrist', are you referring to a left
> wrist that is bent ? It would be more helpful if you could use more
> descriptive terms.
>
> So if you want the left wrist bent at the top, you implied that it
> flattens going down, correct ?
>
> If that is the case, then do you agree that it is absolutely essential
> to have the left wrist flat at impact....regardless of what condition
> it was in prior to impact? What happens when we contact the ball with
> a bent left wrist ?
>
> That leaves no interpretation or guessing. The statment is very clear:
> The left wrist must be flat at impact. Not flattening, or in the
> process of going from cupped to whatever. Just flat. It is either
> flat, or it is not flat.
>
> It is just my opinion that adding a bent left wrist at the top of the
> backswing requires a compensation on the downswing to get the left
> wrist flat at impact. I think you mentioned that the weight of the
> club causes it to flatten. I'm sure that can work. But I will go with
> science and precise alignments, instead of relying on my downswing
> (which is a very quick instant) to create them.
>
KT: your post is civil: thank you.
I have stated clearly at the outset in the book paragraph that was only
partly cited here by someone criticizing me and by ignoring the
qualifications I include in the post about DISH angle (not cupped wrist),
that THE CLUB'S WEIGHT AND FORCE DURING THE DOWNSWING PULLS HARD TO
ELIMINATE THE ANGLE. In my instruction I DO NOT TELL THE PUPIL TO FLATTEN
THE WRIST. I GIVE HIM THE MECHANICS THAT DOES flatten the wrist, because it
is an effect, not a deliberate goal. The DELIBERATE PART is slamming the
clubhead in the same kind of timing as wielding a hammer, in that the
striker and the hand arrive AT THE INSTANT OF COLLISION at the same time--or
that the striker arrives a hair later: the head catches the hand at the
instant that the hand arrives, or a 60th of a second later. This business
of imputing scoop, throwaway, and ridiculous mechanical alignments to my
instruction just for the sake of throwing buckshot into a crowd is unworthy
of the critics. THE CLUBHEAD CATCHES UP TO but does NOT PASS the hands BY
THE TIME OF IMPACT, and at that instant the left wrist HAS BEEN flattened:
the golfer does not "try to flatten it."
AND if he had a very strong grip SOME of that bend will still be retained
between the arm and the shaft on the TOP -- because his uncocking will not
produce a full 180 degree straightening at that joint.
I do not BEND the left wrist at the top, as you imply. It is the maximum
optimal position FOR the left hand holding the club that a small dish angle
BE in place because the clubshaft will then lie halfway between the front
and back of his forearm bones - the location with the greatest innate
security and ability to provide a basis for leverage. No compensation
occurs for that DURING the downswing: IT GETS PULLED and nothing need be
done except hold on while other exertions move the arms and shaft of the
club as those limbs were designed to do.
If any bend exists in the left wrist due to a very strong grip at setup,
there will still probably be a little by impact; BUT looking at the golfer
FACE ON will show the clubshaft just catching up with the hands a bit ahead
and the line from ball to left shoulder will have ideally a LITTLE bend as
the head is still catching up--the wrist will probably appear bowed.
Do you "try to flatten" your left wrist? Wow, what a burden. I have an 8
YO kid who swings a baseball bat and hence a golf club PERFECTLY, and I am
dead sure he has never heard of FLW, and God be pleased that he never will!
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 10:28:05
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:OJm5h.16116$U76.5611@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1163255213.019768.130770@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Mr.Hibbard,
>>
>> I respect your opinions and ideas. But can you please be more accurate
>> with your terms. This 'cupped left wrist', are you referring to a left
>> wrist that is bent ? It would be more helpful if you could use more
>> descriptive terms.
>>
>> So if you want the left wrist bent at the top, you implied that it
>> flattens going down, correct ?
>>
>> If that is the case, then do you agree that it is absolutely essential
>> to have the left wrist flat at impact....regardless of what condition
>> it was in prior to impact? What happens when we contact the ball with
>> a bent left wrist ?
>>
>> That leaves no interpretation or guessing. The statment is very clear:
>> The left wrist must be flat at impact. Not flattening, or in the
>> process of going from cupped to whatever. Just flat. It is either
>> flat, or it is not flat.
>>
>> It is just my opinion that adding a bent left wrist at the top of the
>> backswing requires a compensation on the downswing to get the left
>> wrist flat at impact. I think you mentioned that the weight of the
>> club causes it to flatten. I'm sure that can work. But I will go with
>> science and precise alignments, instead of relying on my downswing
>> (which is a very quick instant) to create them.
>>
>
> KT: your post is civil: thank you.
>
> I have stated clearly at the outset in the book paragraph that was only
> partly cited here by someone criticizing me and by ignoring the
> qualifications I include in the post about DISH angle (not cupped wrist),
> that THE CLUB'S WEIGHT AND FORCE DURING THE DOWNSWING PULLS HARD TO
> ELIMINATE THE ANGLE. In my instruction I DO NOT TELL THE PUPIL TO FLATTEN
> THE WRIST. I GIVE HIM THE MECHANICS THAT DOES flatten the wrist, because
> it is an effect, not a deliberate goal. The DELIBERATE PART is slamming
> the clubhead in the same kind of timing as wielding a hammer, in that the
> striker and the hand arrive AT THE INSTANT OF COLLISION at the same
> time--or that the striker arrives a hair later: the head catches the hand
> at the instant that the hand arrives, or a 60th of a second later. This
> business of imputing scoop, throwaway, and ridiculous mechanical
> alignments to my instruction just for the sake of throwing buckshot into a
> crowd is unworthy of the critics. THE CLUBHEAD CATCHES UP TO but does NOT
> PASS the hands BY THE TIME OF IMPACT, and at that instant the left wrist
> HAS BEEN flattened: the golfer does not "try to flatten it."
>
> AND if he had a very strong grip SOME of that bend will still be retained
> between the arm and the shaft on the TOP -- because his uncocking will not
> produce a full 180 degree straightening at that joint.
>
> I do not BEND the left wrist at the top, as you imply. It is the maximum
> optimal position FOR the left hand holding the club that a small dish
> angle BE in place because the clubshaft will then lie halfway between the
> front and back of his forearm bones - the location with the greatest
> innate security and ability to provide a basis for leverage. No
> compensation occurs for that DURING the downswing: IT GETS PULLED and
> nothing need be done except hold on while other exertions move the arms
> and shaft of the club as those limbs were designed to do.
>
> If any bend exists in the left wrist due to a very strong grip at setup,
> there will still probably be a little by impact; BUT looking at the golfer
> FACE ON will show the clubshaft just catching up with the hands a bit
> ahead and the line from ball to left shoulder will have ideally a LITTLE
> bend as the head is still catching up--the wrist will probably appear
> bowed.
>
> Do you "try to flatten" your left wrist? Wow, what a burden. I have an 8
> YO kid who swings a baseball bat and hence a golf club PERFECTLY, and I am
> dead sure he has never heard of FLW, and God be pleased that he never
> will!
Well we're going in circles here Geo. We're back to where I started with
this.
Your Publication, Perfect Impact states clearly, ---
** The dish angle of 135* is taken at set-up. It also says it is *maintained
throughout the swing*. It includes a photo of 135* cupped wrists. ( pg 16)
** It also includes discussion about this concept ( pg 13) where you boldly
capitalize a caption called IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR. In the discussion of
Imperative 4, you again state that a dish angle is taken at set-up and
*naintained throughout the swing*.
Maybe you've changed your mind, and that is fine. But without question,
either the book is wrong, or you are denying that you've changed posture.
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 13:13:18
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:4556082a$0$3571$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:OJm5h.16116$U76.5611@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1163255213.019768.130770@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> Mr.Hibbard,
>>>
>>> I respect your opinions and ideas. But can you please be more accurate
>>> with your terms. This 'cupped left wrist', are you referring to a left
>>> wrist that is bent ? It would be more helpful if you could use more
>>> descriptive terms.
>>>
>>> So if you want the left wrist bent at the top, you implied that it
>>> flattens going down, correct ?
>>>
>>> If that is the case, then do you agree that it is absolutely essential
>>> to have the left wrist flat at impact....regardless of what condition
>>> it was in prior to impact? What happens when we contact the ball with
>>> a bent left wrist ?
>>>
>>> That leaves no interpretation or guessing. The statment is very clear:
>>> The left wrist must be flat at impact. Not flattening, or in the
>>> process of going from cupped to whatever. Just flat. It is either
>>> flat, or it is not flat.
>>>
>>> It is just my opinion that adding a bent left wrist at the top of the
>>> backswing requires a compensation on the downswing to get the left
>>> wrist flat at impact. I think you mentioned that the weight of the
>>> club causes it to flatten. I'm sure that can work. But I will go with
>>> science and precise alignments, instead of relying on my downswing
>>> (which is a very quick instant) to create them.
>>>
>>
>> KT: your post is civil: thank you.
>>
>> I have stated clearly at the outset in the book paragraph that was only
>> partly cited here by someone criticizing me and by ignoring the
>> qualifications I include in the post about DISH angle (not cupped wrist),
>> that THE CLUB'S WEIGHT AND FORCE DURING THE DOWNSWING PULLS HARD TO
>> ELIMINATE THE ANGLE. In my instruction I DO NOT TELL THE PUPIL TO
>> FLATTEN THE WRIST. I GIVE HIM THE MECHANICS THAT DOES flatten the wrist,
>> because it is an effect, not a deliberate goal. The DELIBERATE PART is
>> slamming the clubhead in the same kind of timing as wielding a hammer, in
>> that the striker and the hand arrive AT THE INSTANT OF COLLISION at the
>> same time--or that the striker arrives a hair later: the head catches the
>> hand at the instant that the hand arrives, or a 60th of a second later.
>> This business of imputing scoop, throwaway, and ridiculous mechanical
>> alignments to my instruction just for the sake of throwing buckshot into
>> a crowd is unworthy of the critics. THE CLUBHEAD CATCHES UP TO but does
>> NOT PASS the hands BY THE TIME OF IMPACT, and at that instant the left
>> wrist HAS BEEN flattened: the golfer does not "try to flatten it."
>>
>> AND if he had a very strong grip SOME of that bend will still be retained
>> between the arm and the shaft on the TOP -- because his uncocking will
>> not produce a full 180 degree straightening at that joint.
>>
>> I do not BEND the left wrist at the top, as you imply. It is the maximum
>> optimal position FOR the left hand holding the club that a small dish
>> angle BE in place because the clubshaft will then lie halfway between the
>> front and back of his forearm bones - the location with the greatest
>> innate security and ability to provide a basis for leverage. No
>> compensation occurs for that DURING the downswing: IT GETS PULLED and
>> nothing need be done except hold on while other exertions move the arms
>> and shaft of the club as those limbs were designed to do.
>>
>> If any bend exists in the left wrist due to a very strong grip at setup,
>> there will still probably be a little by impact; BUT looking at the
>> golfer FACE ON will show the clubshaft just catching up with the hands a
>> bit ahead and the line from ball to left shoulder will have ideally a
>> LITTLE bend as the head is still catching up--the wrist will probably
>> appear bowed.
>>
>> Do you "try to flatten" your left wrist? Wow, what a burden. I have an
>> 8 YO kid who swings a baseball bat and hence a golf club PERFECTLY, and I
>> am dead sure he has never heard of FLW, and God be pleased that he never
>> will!
>
> Well we're going in circles here Geo. We're back to where I started with
> this.
> Your Publication, Perfect Impact states clearly, ---
>
> ** The dish angle of 135* is taken at set-up. It also says it is
> *maintained throughout the swing*. It includes a photo of 135* cupped
> wrists. ( pg 16)
>
> ** It also includes discussion about this concept ( pg 13) where you
> boldly capitalize a caption called IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR. In the
> discussion of Imperative 4, you again state that a dish angle is taken at
> set-up and *naintained throughout the swing*.
>
> Maybe you've changed your mind, and that is fine. But without question,
> either the book is wrong, or you are denying that you've changed posture.
My position is now as I report here in these current posts. I did overlook
stating that the wrist DOES FLATTEN in the downswing: you may also if you
wish report that I spent many paragraphs condemning the scooping position in
which the left hands knuckles bend back. So while I omitted mentioning that
the left wrist flattens in so many words, I clearly reitereated that the
knuckles DO NOT BEND forward into impact. The flat result is a derivative
of these two things.
You are right that I failed to SUFFICIENTLY QUALIFY that the left wrist
flattens: it was overcooked to say that the dish angle IS TO BE HELD
THROUGHOUT the entire swing.... Yes. you are right on that.
>
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 20:57:39
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
On Nov 10, 7:43 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1163205905.343865.20380@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
> >> angle
> >> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
> >> swing.
>
> > Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
> > photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
> > iron
> > shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
>
> > It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
> > "perfect impact".The wrist gets flattened by the pulling force of the club, obviously. You
> do not try to hold it. Duh. And despite reports to the contrary, in the
> FIRST place in which I mention this dish angle in my second book (p. 70,
> first par.), the ENTIRE paragraph ends with "..the only exception being that
> it will be pulled and flattened by the weight of your club as you swing
> through impact." But if you do not know that firsthand, whoEVER fails to
> note that qualifyer reporting it here would ruin anyone's chance to ridicule
> me.
>
> I suppose you just HAD to throw in that barb: after all, this IS
> rec.sport.golf - the recreation of making sport of how clever, superior, and
> mean spirited you can be and gain the admiration of the masses here. Get
> over it, if you can imagine such a concept as being civil -- and, pardon the
> word, a bit h u m b l e.... As I say, pardon the word.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Ridiculous.
Plenty of hacks who flip have a cupped left wrist at impact with an
iron
swing, just as you advocate. Show me one pro who does.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 11:05:26
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
Where do you persist with the idea that I "advocate a cupped left wrist at
impact." I AM VERY CLEAR THAT THE WRIST GETS FLATTENED BY THE FORCE OF THE
CLUB PULLING in the downswing. To quote parts without the REST of the
message is the devil's trick: he doesn't lie directly: he deceives USING
truth and by omission of the rest of the story.
Have you not read my posts here that DO tell the rest of the truncated
distortion by Mr. Greer?
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163221059.539259.77330@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 10, 7:43 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1163205905.343865.20380@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> >> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
>> >> angle
>> >> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of
>> >> the
>> >> swing.
>>
>> > Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
>> > photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
>> > iron
>> > shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
>>
>> > It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
>> > "perfect impact".The wrist gets flattened by the pulling force of the
>> > club, obviously. You
>> do not try to hold it. Duh. And despite reports to the contrary, in the
>> FIRST place in which I mention this dish angle in my second book (p. 70,
>> first par.), the ENTIRE paragraph ends with "..the only exception being
>> that
>> it will be pulled and flattened by the weight of your club as you swing
>> through impact." But if you do not know that firsthand, whoEVER fails to
>> note that qualifyer reporting it here would ruin anyone's chance to
>> ridicule
>> me.
>>
>> I suppose you just HAD to throw in that barb: after all, this IS
>> rec.sport.golf - the recreation of making sport of how clever, superior,
>> and
>> mean spirited you can be and gain the admiration of the masses here. Get
>> over it, if you can imagine such a concept as being civil -- and, pardon
>> the
>> word, a bit h u m b l e.... As I say, pardon the word.- Hide
>> quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
> Ridiculous.
>
> Plenty of hacks who flip have a cupped left wrist at impact with an
> iron
> swing, just as you advocate. Show me one pro who does.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 12:09:50
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:5xm5h.16102$U76.5051@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> Where do you persist with the idea that I "advocate a cupped left wrist at
> impact." I AM VERY CLEAR THAT THE WRIST GETS FLATTENED BY THE FORCE OF
> THE CLUB PULLING in the downswing. To quote parts without the REST of
> the message is the devil's trick: he doesn't lie directly: he deceives
> USING truth and by omission of the rest of the story.
>
> Have you not read my posts here that DO tell the rest of the truncated
> distortion by Mr. Greer?
George.
I was very civil.
I never distorted anything.
I only used *your words* in *your publication*, then asked you to explain
the change in theory.
As you later noted, your first publication omitted what you now type.
You said you wanted no personal attacks. Now you make false claims against
me.
Maybe these videos will help you sell more books
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=George+Hibbard&search=Search
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 14:20:39
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:45562003$0$3569$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:5xm5h.16102$U76.5051@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> Where do you persist with the idea that I "advocate a cupped left wrist
>> at impact." I AM VERY CLEAR THAT THE WRIST GETS FLATTENED BY THE FORCE
>> OF THE CLUB PULLING in the downswing. To quote parts without the REST
>> of the message is the devil's trick: he doesn't lie directly: he deceives
>> USING truth and by omission of the rest of the story.
>>
>> Have you not read my posts here that DO tell the rest of the truncated
>> distortion by Mr. Greer?
>
> George.
> I was very civil.
> I never distorted anything.
> I only used *your words* in *your publication*, then asked you to explain
> the change in theory.
> As you later noted, your first publication omitted what you now type.
> You said you wanted no personal attacks. Now you make false claims against
> me.
>
No, I said you quoted only part of what I wrote: it is disingenuous to fail
to post the whole message where the excesses you wish to pin on me are
clearly refuted. As I say, it is a way to appear honest in your statement,
hence innocent of an ulterior motive, to quote a part. Why did you NOT add
the disclaimers to your post that I wrote about the knuckles in subseqauent
paragraphs? I see only one reason, Brad. An attempt to ridicule me. It
was anything but honest.
.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 13:06:44
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:5op5h.10272$TX.1191@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:45562003$0$3569$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>> news:5xm5h.16102$U76.5051@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>>> Where do you persist with the idea that I "advocate a cupped left wrist
>>> at impact." I AM VERY CLEAR THAT THE WRIST GETS FLATTENED BY THE FORCE
>>> OF THE CLUB PULLING in the downswing. To quote parts without the REST
>>> of the message is the devil's trick: he doesn't lie directly: he
>>> deceives USING truth and by omission of the rest of the story.
>>>
>>> Have you not read my posts here that DO tell the rest of the truncated
>>> distortion by Mr. Greer?
>>
>> George.
>> I was very civil.
>> I never distorted anything.
>> I only used *your words* in *your publication*, then asked you to explain
>> the change in theory.
>> As you later noted, your first publication omitted what you now type.
>> You said you wanted no personal attacks. Now you make false claims
>> against me.
>>
>
> No, I said you quoted only part of what I wrote: it is disingenuous to
> fail to post the whole message where the excesses you wish to pin on me
> are clearly refuted. As I say, it is a way to appear honest in your
> statement, hence innocent of an ulterior motive, to quote a part. Why
> did you NOT add the disclaimers to your post that I wrote about the
> knuckles in subseqauent paragraphs? I see only one reason, Brad. An
> attempt to ridicule me. It was anything but honest.
Because the picture in your book on page 16 clearly says the opposite. In
the photo showing the angle of the cuping at 135*, the one that says this
135* angle is MAINTAINED THROUGHOUT THE SWING--, it contradicts any other
statements.
You said there should be no bending under ( scooping). George, the pic you
want to maintain IS BENDING UNDER. That position would cause throughout,
deceleration, and it IS SCOOPING.
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 17:31:05
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish angle
> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
> swing.
WTF does this have to do with Nancy Pelosi?
Are you saying she's a "cupper?"
Probably not much more than a B-cupper.
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:29:46
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:EJ75h.20176$lY5.12581@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
> angle in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of
> the swing.
>
> Both of them relate to the leverage/control/hold of the left hand on the
> club. To understand the first reason, imagine hanging from a bar with
> your left hand. When your weight hangs from the bar your wrist will
> neither cup severely nor bow: its "center" and your most secure hold on
> the bar will be such that the back of your hand will be dish angled. The
> bar itself will be IN THE MIDDLE BETWEEN the two lines of extension of the
> back of your forearm and the inside surface of the forearm. In other
> words, if you draw straight lines along the dorsal and palmar sides of
> your forearm, the bar will center itself halfway between the two. Were
> you to try to cup your wrist or bow it, the bar would no longer be IN LINE
> with the bones - it would be in a weakened relationship to the arm that is
> pulling the bar, or in the case of a golf club, exerting force on the
> grip. This is seriously important at the top because that is the instant
> when you really DO start to apply major force against the club--clearly it
> will be getting pulled.
>
> The other leverage/control issue is what happens AT THE BASE OF YOUR
> ULNA - under the "heel" of the hand. If the end of the grip is not FIRMly
> supported BY A DOWNWARD PRESSURE of the end of the ulna pulled up by the
> upward squeezing/pull of the four fingers of your hand,--i.e., squeezed
> BETWEEN the phalanxes of those four fingers and the meaty part of the hand
> near 0the pinkie side of your palm, it can slip out. If that were to
> occur, you lose the ability to hold the club UP into your hand - the grip
> COULD "slip out" from your hand even if you sqeeze hard with your fingers
> IF THERE IS NOTHING ATOP THE GRIP at that instant against which to press.
> The location of the end of the grip PRECISELY POSITIONED at the END of
> that base of your hand gives it a security from slipping there. It COULD
> slip out if the back of the hand is truly flat with the back of the
> forearm: THAT position is a WEAKER one because the grip is no longer under
> the heel pad: it would have to be somewhat beside it UNsupported by the
> base of the ulna bone.
>
> So these are the two reasons why a very small dish angle is superior to a
> flat left wrist. AND the subtlety of the difference between feeling that
> security, and feeling something less secure that would be the case with a
> FLAT wrist (a feeling in most cases too subtle for you to be aware of the
> difference), will cause your neuromuscular reactions to make you back off
> of a fully exuberant swing effort when it does sense the inherent weakness
> of the grip. Your hold on the club fails to give permission for the full
> effort you could apply to the grip because it senses that you could "lose"
> the club if a lot of pull was applied to it.
>
> There is no question that making this post will start a firestorm.
> Besides that, it is SO off topic, being posted in rec.sport.golf, which
> is, of course, about everything else except golf.
>
> Ad personam responses will be ignored: ad rems are welcomed.
>
> George Hibbard
> www.perfectimpact.com
>
>
Earlier today you said it was "not cupped".
In your book you say it is dished ( cupped) at 135*
Now, you say there is a "kinda cup".
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 16:45:05
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish angle
> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
> swing.
Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
iron
shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
"perfect impact".
|
| | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 20:43:11
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163205905.343865.20380@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
>> angle
>> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
>> swing.
>
> Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
> photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
> iron
> shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
>
> It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
> "perfect impact".
>
The wrist gets flattened by the pulling force of the club, obviously. You
do not try to hold it. Duh. And despite reports to the contrary, in the
FIRST place in which I mention this dish angle in my second book (p. 70,
first par.), the ENTIRE paragraph ends with "..the only exception being that
it will be pulled and flattened by the weight of your club as you swing
through impact." But if you do not know that firsthand, whoEVER fails to
note that qualifyer reporting it here would ruin anyone's chance to ridicule
me.
I suppose you just HAD to throw in that barb: after all, this IS
rec.sport.golf - the recreation of making sport of how clever, superior, and
mean spirited you can be and gain the admiration of the masses here. Get
over it, if you can imagine such a concept as being civil -- and, pardon the
word, a bit h u m b l e.... As I say, pardon the word.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 00:28:06
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:KU95h.12793$3L.7354@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1163205905.343865.20380@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>>> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
>>> angle
>>> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of the
>>> swing.
>>
>> Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
>> photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
>> iron
>> shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
>>
>> It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
>> "perfect impact".
>>
>
> The wrist gets flattened by the pulling force of the club, obviously. You
> do not try to hold it. Duh. And despite reports to the contrary, in the
> FIRST place in which I mention this dish angle in my second book (p. 70,
> first par.), the ENTIRE paragraph ends with "..the only exception being
> that it will be pulled and flattened by the weight of your club as you
> swing through impact." But if you do not know that firsthand, whoEVER
> fails to note that qualifyer reporting it here would ruin anyone's chance
> to ridicule me.
>
> I suppose you just HAD to throw in that barb: after all, this IS
> rec.sport.golf - the recreation of making sport of how clever, superior,
> and mean spirited you can be and gain the admiration of the masses here.
> Get over it, if you can imagine such a concept as being civil -- and,
> pardon the word, a bit h u m b l e.... As I say, pardon the
> word.
Down Boy
Birdie Bill makes a great point.
Your prior publication taught a cupped dish angle of 135*. It said that the
135* dish angle was set at address and maintained throughout the swing, <
that includes impact >.
That dogma in your book, Imperative # 4, was quite frankly....W R O N G.
|
| |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 21:20:44
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
On Nov 11, 12:13 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in messagenews:4556082a$0$3571$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> >news:OJm5h.16116$U76.5611@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> >> "KnighT" <bryanjunk...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:1163255213.019768.130770@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>> Mr.Hibbard,
>
> >>> I respect your opinions and ideas. But can you please be more accurate
> >>> with your terms. This 'cupped left wrist', are you referring to a left
> >>> wrist that is bent ? It would be more helpful if you could use more
> >>> descriptive terms.
>
> >>> So if you want the left wrist bent at the top, you implied that it
> >>> flattens going down, correct ?
>
> >>> If that is the case, then do you agree that it is absolutely essential
> >>> to have the left wrist flat at impact....regardless of what condition
> >>> it was in prior to impact? What happens when we contact the ball with
> >>> a bent left wrist ?
>
> >>> That leaves no interpretation or guessing. The statment is very clear:
> >>> The left wrist must be flat at impact. Not flattening, or in the
> >>> process of going from cupped to whatever. Just flat. It is either
> >>> flat, or it is not flat.
>
> >>> It is just my opinion that adding a bent left wrist at the top of the
> >>> backswing requires a compensation on the downswing to get the left
> >>> wrist flat at impact. I think you mentioned that the weight of the
> >>> club causes it to flatten. I'm sure that can work. But I will go with
> >>> science and precise alignments, instead of relying on my downswing
> >>> (which is a very quick instant) to create them.
>
> >> KT: your post is civil: thank you.
>
> >> I have stated clearly at the outset in the book paragraph that was only
> >> partly cited here by someone criticizing me and by ignoring the
> >> qualifications I include in the post about DISH angle (not cupped wrist),
> >> that THE CLUB'S WEIGHT AND FORCE DURING THE DOWNSWING PULLS HARD TO
> >> ELIMINATE THE ANGLE. In my instruction I DO NOT TELL THE PUPIL TO
> >> FLATTEN THE WRIST. I GIVE HIM THE MECHANICS THAT DOES flatten the wrist,
> >> because it is an effect, not a deliberate goal. The DELIBERATE PART is
> >> slamming the clubhead in the same kind of timing as wielding a hammer, in
> >> that the striker and the hand arrive AT THE INSTANT OF COLLISION at the
> >> same time--or that the striker arrives a hair later: the head catches the
> >> hand at the instant that the hand arrives, or a 60th of a second later.
> >> This business of imputing scoop, throwaway, and ridiculous mechanical
> >> alignments to my instruction just for the sake of throwing buckshot into
> >> a crowd is unworthy of the critics. THE CLUBHEAD CATCHES UP TO but does
> >> NOT PASS the hands BY THE TIME OF IMPACT, and at that instant the left
> >> wrist HAS BEEN flattened: the golfer does not "try to flatten it."
>
> >> AND if he had a very strong grip SOME of that bend will still be retained
> >> between the arm and the shaft on the TOP -- because his uncocking will
> >> not produce a full 180 degree straightening at that joint.
>
> >> I do not BEND the left wrist at the top, as you imply. It is the maximum
> >> optimal position FOR the left hand holding the club that a small dish
> >> angle BE in place because the clubshaft will then lie halfway between the
> >> front and back of his forearm bones - the location with the greatest
> >> innate security and ability to provide a basis for leverage. No
> >> compensation occurs for that DURING the downswing: IT GETS PULLED and
> >> nothing need be done except hold on while other exertions move the arms
> >> and shaft of the club as those limbs were designed to do.
>
> >> If any bend exists in the left wrist due to a very strong grip at setup,
> >> there will still probably be a little by impact; BUT looking at the
> >> golfer FACE ON will show the clubshaft just catching up with the hands a
> >> bit ahead and the line from ball to left shoulder will have ideally a
> >> LITTLE bend as the head is still catching up--the wrist will probably
> >> appear bowed.
>
> >> Do you "try to flatten" your left wrist? Wow, what a burden. I have an
> >> 8 YO kid who swings a baseball bat and hence a golf club PERFECTLY, and I
> >> am dead sure he has never heard of FLW, and God be pleased that he never
> >> will!
>
> > Well we're going in circles here Geo. We're back to where I started with
> > this.
> > Your Publication, Perfect Impact states clearly, ---
>
> > ** The dish angle of 135* is taken at set-up. It also says it is
> > *maintained throughout the swing*. It includes a photo of 135* cupped
> > wrists. ( pg 16)
>
> > ** It also includes discussion about this concept ( pg 13) where you
> > boldly capitalize a caption called IMPERATIVE NUMBER FOUR. In the
> > discussion of Imperative 4, you again state that a dish angle is taken at
> > set-up and *naintained throughout the swing*.
>
> > Maybe you've changed your mind, and that is fine. But without question,
> > either the book is wrong, or you are denying that you've changed posture.My position is now as I report here in these current posts. I did overlook
> stating that the wrist DOES FLATTEN in the downswing: you may also if you
> wish report that I spent many paragraphs condemning the scooping position in
> which the left hands knuckles bend back. So while I omitted mentioning that
> the left wrist flattens in so many words, I clearly reitereated that the
> knuckles DO NOT BEND forward into impact. The flat result is a derivative
> of these two things.
>
> You are right that I failed to SUFFICIENTLY QUALIFY that the left wrist
> flattens: it was overcooked to say that the dish angle IS TO BE HELD
> THROUGHOUT the entire swing.... Yes. you are right on that.
I see that we all agree, then, that your statement about retaining
the cupping throughout the swing was clearly wrong. That's
progress. Now, I have a question about your statement that the left
wrist
is flattened by the "pull of the club in the downswing". Can you be a
little
more specific about that? Are you talking about the "centrifugal"
force of
the club releasing, or something else?
If this is what you mean, then, are you saying that the clubshaft is in
line
with the left forearm (when viewed face-on) at the start of impact, and
that is what causes the flat wrist?
|
| | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 22:35:41
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163308844.141335.288570@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I see that we all agree, then, that your statement about retaining
> the cupping throughout the swing was clearly wrong. That's
> progress. Now, I have a question about your statement that the left
> wrist
> is flattened by the "pull of the club in the downswing". Can you be a
> little
> more specific about that? Are you talking about the "centrifugal"
> force of
> the club releasing, or something else?
>
> If this is what you mean, then, are you saying that the clubshaft is in
> line
> with the left forearm (when viewed face-on) at the start of impact, and
> that is what causes the flat wrist?
>
I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
( It's at least On Topic)
In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at the
top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact geometry
at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
address.
For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing a
fade.
Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if not
planned for.
|
| |
Date: 12 Nov 2006 03:23:25
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
On Nov 11, 11:35 pm, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com > wrote:
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1163308844.141335.288570@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I see that we all agree, then, that your statement about retaining
> > the cupping throughout the swing was clearly wrong. That's
> > progress. Now, I have a question about your statement that the left
> > wrist
> > is flattened by the "pull of the club in the downswing". Can you be a
> > little
> > more specific about that? Are you talking about the "centrifugal"
> > force of
> > the club releasing, or something else?
>
> > If this is what you mean, then, are you saying that the clubshaft is in
> > line
> > with the left forearm (when viewed face-on) at the start of impact, and
> > that is what causes the flat wrist?I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
> ( It's at least On Topic)
> In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at the
> top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
> and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact geometry
> at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
> foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> address.
> For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing a
> fade.
> Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if not
> planned for.
I was trying to understand George's statement, because
I don't see any pros in my swing library
doing what he says, with irons at least.
They all arrive at the start of impact with their hands well
ahead of the ball, and the clubshaft tilted towards the
target - NOT inline with their left forearm.
There is no way that they have relied on "the pull of the club"
to get to this position.
The forces of release (call it centrifugal, or whatever) do pull
everything straight, but that happens well after impact.
The pros release THROUGH impact, not BEFORE impact.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Nov 2006 07:24:45
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163330605.100194.246760@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 11, 11:35 pm, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote:
>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1163308844.141335.288570@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I see that we all agree, then, that your statement about retaining
>> > the cupping throughout the swing was clearly wrong. That's
>> > progress. Now, I have a question about your statement that the left
>> > wrist
>> > is flattened by the "pull of the club in the downswing". Can you be a
>> > little
>> > more specific about that? Are you talking about the "centrifugal"
>> > force of
>> > the club releasing, or something else?
>>
>> > If this is what you mean, then, are you saying that the clubshaft is in
>> > line
>> > with the left forearm (when viewed face-on) at the start of impact, and
>> > that is what causes the flat wrist?I realize you are not asking me, but
>> > I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
>> ( It's at least On Topic)
>> In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
>> address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
>> the
>> top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
>> and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
>> geometry
>> at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
>> foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
>> address.
>> For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing
>> a
>> fade.
>> Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if
>> not
>> planned for.
>
> I was trying to understand George's statement, because
> I don't see any pros in my swing library
> doing what he says, with irons at least.
>
> They all arrive at the start of impact with their hands well
> ahead of the ball, and the clubshaft tilted towards the
> target - NOT inline with their left forearm.
>
> There is no way that they have relied on "the pull of the club"
> to get to this position.
>
> The forces of release (call it centrifugal, or whatever) do pull
> everything straight, but that happens well after impact.
>
> The pros release THROUGH impact, not BEFORE impact.
>
I'm not saying it should be otherwise at all. It is a semantic difference
you make here: the clubhead IS CATCHING up during impact. And yes, the
forward press "flattens" the left wrist: again, semantics because how
perfectly flat, vs. slight dish angle as I advocate, is relative. The
PRINCIPLE of the clubhead following the hand - lag - is the core of this
issue.
|
| |
Date: 12 Nov 2006 11:33:24
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
glfnaz wrote:
> I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
> ( It's at least On Topic)
> In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at the
> top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
> and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact geometry
> at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
> foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> address.
> For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing a
> fade.
> Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if not
> planned for.
I completely agree with you glfnaz.
I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
proper term of bent.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Nov 2006 12:55:29
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1163360004.056874.221020@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> glfnaz wrote:
>> I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
>> ( It's at least On Topic)
>> In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
>> address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
>> the
>> top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
>> and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
>> geometry
>> at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
>> foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
>> address.
>> For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing
>> a
>> fade.
>> Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if
>> not
>> planned for.
>
> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
>
> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
>
> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
> proper term of bent.
>
It isn't propoer or improper.
Ledbetter, like him or not, used the term "dish angle" in a major
publucation of his. It sold more copies than the Yellow Book, by the way.
I agree with you though, I'm not argueing. But 'dish angle' is widely
accepted, and like it or not, some of Kelley's terms are only used among
TGMers.
For example, ask any PGA PRO what 'extensor action', 6-B-1-D is......
They'll ask to share your drugs.
But that said, I prefer the Yellow Book as you do.
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 09:33:23
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> Where do you persist with the idea that I "advocate a cupped left wrist at
> impact." I AM VERY CLEAR THAT THE WRIST GETS FLATTENED BY THE FORCE OF THE
> CLUB PULLING in the downswing. To quote parts without the REST of the
> message is the devil's trick: he doesn't lie directly: he deceives USING
> truth and by omission of the rest of the story.
>
Tell you the truth, I don't pay attention to what my wrist looks like,
as I am concerned primarily with the lag that's created, the tension,
and how my clubhead looks around the impact area while getting rid of
my lag. But when you say it get's flattened by the force of the
downswing, I must ask, is it so? Or, must it be so?
I try not to think of any pulling at all on the downswing. There maybe
a change of inertia on it's onset, and a tightening with say a body
surge forward; but I like to think of better swings without a pulling
action. And some swings actually push on the downswing, or slue, or
are being released without pulling. What would the wrist be inclined
to do then, if it has been looked at that way?
CJ
> Have you not read my posts here that DO tell the rest of the truncated
> distortion by Mr. Greer?
>
>
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1163221059.539259.77330@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > On Nov 10, 7:43 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:1163205905.343865.20380@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Nov 10, 5:14 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >> >> There are two reasons for taking and maintaining the very slight dish
> >> >> angle
> >> >> in the left hand - especially important at address and at the top of
> >> >> the
> >> >> swing.
> >>
> >> > Amazing, George. But what about at impact? Can you show a single
> >> > photo of a pro golfer that has a cupped left wrist at impact with an
> >> > iron
> >> > shot? Just one? I haven't seen one, myself.
> >>
> >> > It is amazing that these pro golfers haven't learned the secrets of
> >> > "perfect impact".The wrist gets flattened by the pulling force of the
> >> > club, obviously. You
> >> do not try to hold it. Duh. And despite reports to the contrary, in the
> >> FIRST place in which I mention this dish angle in my second book (p. 70,
> >> first par.), the ENTIRE paragraph ends with "..the only exception being
> >> that
> >> it will be pulled and flattened by the weight of your club as you swing
> >> through impact." But if you do not know that firsthand, whoEVER fails to
> >> note that qualifyer reporting it here would ruin anyone's chance to
> >> ridicule
> >> me.
> >>
> >> I suppose you just HAD to throw in that barb: after all, this IS
> >> rec.sport.golf - the recreation of making sport of how clever, superior,
> >> and
> >> mean spirited you can be and gain the admiration of the masses here. Get
> >> over it, if you can imagine such a concept as being civil -- and, pardon
> >> the
> >> word, a bit h u m b l e.... As I say, pardon the word.- Hide
> >> quoted text -- Show quoted text -
> >
> > Ridiculous.
> >
> > Plenty of hacks who flip have a cupped left wrist at impact with an
> > iron
> > swing, just as you advocate. Show me one pro who does.
> >
|
| | |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 17:47:53
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
<curtjester1@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1163439203.739376.46420@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I try not to think of any pulling at all on the downswing. There maybe
> a change of inertia on it's onset, and a tightening with say a body
> surge forward; but I like to think of better swings without a pulling
> action. And some swings actually push on the downswing, or slue, or
> are being released without pulling. What would the wrist be inclined
> to do then, if it has been looked at that way?
>
> CJ
>
Maybe pulling isn't exactly what you experience, but you certainly MOVE the
club somehow, and when it STARTS from the top, it surely is moving
lengthwise, tangent to the arc of the left hand. So that requires a VERY
good grip. Mine is compromised if the grip itself is not in line with the
bones of my left arm the same as if I was hanging doing chinups: I simply
could not do them if I flattened OR cupped the wrist: the most natural and
strongest relationship of the hand and bar would be with a dish angle.
In the downswing the lag tends to flatten the back of the hand and take the
dish angle out. But one doesn't do that deliberately: it is an effect and
is completely out of the realm of itself being able to be controlled.
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 05:02:36
From: cja
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
glfnaz wrote:
> For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing a
> fade.
> Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if not
> planned for.
>
I'm glad we finally got to the point. I don't care that much about what
GH said before vs. what he's saying now. I don't agree with him either
way.
When my left wrist is flat at the top, I make a better swing and get
more power with less effort. I worked on this a lot last season,
because my tendency has been to cup the wrist, come over the top
slightly, and give away power. Knowing what that feels like, though,
does allow me to hit a fade when I need to. The cupped wrist also
seems to be my go-to swing when the pressure is on, or when my game is
a little off. Trusting the FLW position is a work in progress for me.
- cja
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 03:04:27
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
KnighT wrote:
> glfnaz wrote:
> > I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion anyway.
> > ( It's at least On Topic)
> > In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> > address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at the
> > top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The FLW
> > and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact geometry
> > at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use a
> > foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> > address.
> > For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm playing a
> > fade.
> > Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive if not
> > planned for.
>
> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
>
> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
>
> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
> proper term of bent.
When my left wrist is cocked at the top of my swing I make sure it is
in its most stable, neutral position and there is a slight "dish angle"
just like George and David Leadbetter describe. But it definitely does
not feel bent one way or the other I am sure of that. It is just that
there is a slight but noticeable angle between the back of the hand and
the end of my forearm. But I also observe that my left wrist naturally
flattens when the wrist uncocks so that my wrist still looks flat at
impact. I believe that that is all that Leadbetter means by the dish
angle. I would actually have to bend my left wrist (ie in a slight
palmar flexion) in order to make it look perfectly flat at the top. In
fact, I tend to lay the club off if I try and make the wrist completely
flat at the top so I prefer not to do this. I suspect that the
appearance of the wrist depends somewhat on the anatomy of the
individual. I have quite short wide muscular hands with big knuckles in
proportion to my relatively thin wrists so this angle will probably be
more evident than would be the case with someone with thicker wrists
and slimmer hands and fingers. Just a thought.
Babbs
|
| | |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 06:23:51
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
You have said perfectly what I was saying in a different way and giving the
exact reason for it. One way to make this point really clear is to bow your
wrist a lot and try to apply the kind of force against the club you would
use to try to do a chinup. The weakened position of that bowed wrist
becomes quite evident. When you pull you feel compromised. With the grip
"in line" with the wrist bones instead of offset, hence with a slight angle
at the dorsal side of your wrist, you are in your optimum position for
REALLY applying thrust.
<babblebrook1@eircom.net > wrote in message
news:1163415867.772152.89210@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> KnighT wrote:
>> glfnaz wrote:
>> > I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion
>> > anyway.
>> > ( It's at least On Topic)
>> > In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
>> > address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
>> > the
>> > top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The
>> > FLW
>> > and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
>> > geometry
>> > at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use
>> > a
>> > foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
>> > address.
>> > For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm
>> > playing a
>> > fade.
>> > Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive
>> > if not
>> > planned for.
>>
>> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
>>
>> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
>> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
>> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
>> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
>> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
>> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
>>
>> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
>> proper term of bent.
>
> When my left wrist is cocked at the top of my swing I make sure it is
> in its most stable, neutral position and there is a slight "dish angle"
> just like George and David Leadbetter describe. But it definitely does
> not feel bent one way or the other I am sure of that. It is just that
> there is a slight but noticeable angle between the back of the hand and
> the end of my forearm. But I also observe that my left wrist naturally
> flattens when the wrist uncocks so that my wrist still looks flat at
> impact. I believe that that is all that Leadbetter means by the dish
> angle. I would actually have to bend my left wrist (ie in a slight
> palmar flexion) in order to make it look perfectly flat at the top. In
> fact, I tend to lay the club off if I try and make the wrist completely
> flat at the top so I prefer not to do this. I suspect that the
> appearance of the wrist depends somewhat on the anatomy of the
> individual. I have quite short wide muscular hands with big knuckles in
> proportion to my relatively thin wrists so this angle will probably be
> more evident than would be the case with someone with thicker wrists
> and slimmer hands and fingers. Just a thought.
> Babbs
>
|
| |
Date: 13 Nov 2006 16:38:10
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> <curtjester1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1163439203.739376.46420@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > I try not to think of any pulling at all on the downswing. There maybe
> > a change of inertia on it's onset, and a tightening with say a body
> > surge forward; but I like to think of better swings without a pulling
> > action. And some swings actually push on the downswing, or slue, or
> > are being released without pulling. What would the wrist be inclined
> > to do then, if it has been looked at that way?
> >
> > CJ
> >
>
>
> Maybe pulling isn't exactly what you experience, but you certainly MOVE the
> club somehow, and when it STARTS from the top, it surely is moving
> lengthwise, tangent to the arc of the left hand. So that requires a VERY
> good grip. Mine is compromised if the grip itself is not in line with the
> bones of my left arm the same as if I was hanging doing chinups: I simply
> could not do them if I flattened OR cupped the wrist: the most natural and
> strongest relationship of the hand and bar would be with a dish angle.
>
I do move but as I sit here trying to think about it, it's more of a
cadence of my arms and not so much a pulling. I believe if I have too
good of a grip and pull it will be a negative effect since I cannot
release and pull at the same time. I believe they negate each other. I
believe I would be skidding into impact and setting myself up for a
push if I didn't correct somewhere along the way. Anyhoo, I believe in
light grip effectiveness to control my swing thoughts and steering. I
also feel that initial speed of the wrists is unimportant on the
downswing as too fast is going to jerk the shaft and clubhead instead
of letting it come around on the arc. And too strong of a grip (as in
tight tension) is hard to maintain coordination-wise while releasing.
So, when I am up at the top and have to come down, I think of it more
of a natural drop if there is such a thing than a violent overuse of my
wrists.
Your dish angle would be interesting to see live on the range. It's
just too hard to see here to say I get it enough to go out and try your
thought out on a next range session.
CJ
>
> In the downswing the lag tends to flatten the back of the hand and take the
> dish angle out. But one doesn't do that deliberately: it is an effect and
> is completely out of the realm of itself being able to be controlled.
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 08:14:01
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> <curtjester1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1163464690.543280.306640@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > George Hibbard wrote:
> >> <curtjester1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1163439203.739376.46420@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> > I try not to think of any pulling at all on the downswing. There
> >> > maybe
> >> > a change of inertia on it's onset, and a tightening with say a body
> >> > surge forward; but I like to think of better swings without a pulling
> >> > action. And some swings actually push on the downswing, or slue, or
> >> > are being released without pulling. What would the wrist be inclined
> >> > to do then, if it has been looked at that way?
> >> >
> >> > CJ
> >> >>
> >> Maybe pulling isn't exactly what you experience, but you certainly MOVE
> >> the
> >> club somehow, and when it STARTS from the top, it surely is moving
> >> lengthwise, tangent to the arc of the left hand. So that requires a VERY
> >> good grip. Mine is compromised if the grip itself is not in line with
> >> the
> >> bones of my left arm the same as if I was hanging doing chinups: I simply
> >> could not do them if I flattened OR cupped the wrist: the most natural
> >> and
> >> strongest relationship of the hand and bar would be with a dish angle.
> >>
> > I do move but as I sit here trying to think about it, it's more of a
> > cadence of my arms and not so much a pulling. I believe if I have too
> > good of a grip and pull it will be a negative effect since I cannot
> > release and pull at the same time. I believe they negate each other. I
> > believe I would be skidding into impact and setting myself up for a
> > push if I didn't correct somewhere along the way. Anyhoo, I believe in
> > light grip effectiveness to control my swing thoughts and steering. I
> > also feel that initial speed of the wrists is unimportant on the
> > downswing as too fast is going to jerk the shaft and clubhead instead
> > of letting it come around on the arc. And too strong of a grip (as in
> > tight tension) is hard to maintain coordination-wise while releasing.
> > So, when I am up at the top and have to come down, I think of it more
> > of a natural drop if there is such a thing than a violent overuse of my
> > wrists.
> >
> > Your dish angle would be interesting to see live on the range. It's
> > just too hard to see here to say I get it enough to go out and try your
> > thought out on a next range session.
> >
> >
> > CJ
> >
> FWIW, baseball big hitters have a cupped left wrist in the loadup of their
> "backswing..." Not that they need to "square the clubhead," but they can
> apply more torque that way! I don't recall ever seeing one with a flat left
> wrist!
I would like to be a hitting coach for a spring. They need more golf
thoughts!
CJ
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 06:16:21
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
I have enjoyed this thread alot. It is nice to actually have some
productive golf discussion on this golf forum. I have learned some
good stuff as a result of this good discussion.
How important is it to have a correct grip in order to support the club
properly at the top of the swing, and just during the entire swing in
general ?
I think the semantics of what some of us are trying to say are just
different ways of saying the same (or similar) things. I also think
how you hold the club (especially with the left hand) is very
important. Because if 2 people hold the club differently, they look
different at the top (regarding the left wrist specifically) while they
might both be in the same correct position.
babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> Thanks George - yes I think I understand what you are saying and I
> think you have made a very good point. The clubshaft should be pretty
> much in line with the longitudinal axis of the wrist so that their axes
> intersect and hence the clubshaft and forearm are on the same plane.
> That's the true 'unbent' and most relaxed, stable and natural position.
> The exact position of the back off the hand is really not very relevant
> since this will vary from one individual to another.
> Rgds
> B
> George Hibbard wrote:
> > You have said perfectly what I was saying in a different way and giving the
> > exact reason for it. One way to make this point really clear is to bow your
> > wrist a lot and try to apply the kind of force against the club you would
> > use to try to do a chinup. The weakened position of that bowed wrist
> > becomes quite evident. When you pull you feel compromised. With the grip
> > "in line" with the wrist bones instead of offset, hence with a slight angle
> > at the dorsal side of your wrist, you are in your optimum position for
> > REALLY applying thrust.
> >
> >
> >
> > <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> > news:1163415867.772152.89210@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > KnighT wrote:
> > >> glfnaz wrote:
> > >> > I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion
> > >> > anyway.
> > >> > ( It's at least On Topic)
> > >> > In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> > >> > address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
> > >> > the
> > >> > top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The
> > >> > FLW
> > >> > and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
> > >> > geometry
> > >> > at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use
> > >> > a
> > >> > foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> > >> > address.
> > >> > For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm
> > >> > playing a
> > >> > fade.
> > >> > Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive
> > >> > if not
> > >> > planned for.
> > >>
> > >> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
> > >>
> > >> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
> > >> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
> > >> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
> > >> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
> > >> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
> > >> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
> > >>
> > >> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
> > >> proper term of bent.
> > >
> > > When my left wrist is cocked at the top of my swing I make sure it is
> > > in its most stable, neutral position and there is a slight "dish angle"
> > > just like George and David Leadbetter describe. But it definitely does
> > > not feel bent one way or the other I am sure of that. It is just that
> > > there is a slight but noticeable angle between the back of the hand and
> > > the end of my forearm. But I also observe that my left wrist naturally
> > > flattens when the wrist uncocks so that my wrist still looks flat at
> > > impact. I believe that that is all that Leadbetter means by the dish
> > > angle. I would actually have to bend my left wrist (ie in a slight
> > > palmar flexion) in order to make it look perfectly flat at the top. In
> > > fact, I tend to lay the club off if I try and make the wrist completely
> > > flat at the top so I prefer not to do this. I suspect that the
> > > appearance of the wrist depends somewhat on the anatomy of the
> > > individual. I have quite short wide muscular hands with big knuckles in
> > > proportion to my relatively thin wrists so this angle will probably be
> > > more evident than would be the case with someone with thicker wrists
> > > and slimmer hands and fingers. Just a thought.
> > > Babbs
> > >
|
| |
Date: 14 Nov 2006 00:48:02
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
Thanks George - yes I think I understand what you are saying and I
think you have made a very good point. The clubshaft should be pretty
much in line with the longitudinal axis of the wrist so that their axes
intersect and hence the clubshaft and forearm are on the same plane.
That's the true 'unbent' and most relaxed, stable and natural position.
The exact position of the back off the hand is really not very relevant
since this will vary from one individual to another.
Rgds
B
George Hibbard wrote:
> You have said perfectly what I was saying in a different way and giving the
> exact reason for it. One way to make this point really clear is to bow your
> wrist a lot and try to apply the kind of force against the club you would
> use to try to do a chinup. The weakened position of that bowed wrist
> becomes quite evident. When you pull you feel compromised. With the grip
> "in line" with the wrist bones instead of offset, hence with a slight angle
> at the dorsal side of your wrist, you are in your optimum position for
> REALLY applying thrust.
>
>
>
> <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> news:1163415867.772152.89210@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > KnighT wrote:
> >> glfnaz wrote:
> >> > I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion
> >> > anyway.
> >> > ( It's at least On Topic)
> >> > In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> >> > address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
> >> > the
> >> > top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The
> >> > FLW
> >> > and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
> >> > geometry
> >> > at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use
> >> > a
> >> > foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> >> > address.
> >> > For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm
> >> > playing a
> >> > fade.
> >> > Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive
> >> > if not
> >> > planned for.
> >>
> >> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
> >>
> >> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
> >> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
> >> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
> >> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
> >> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
> >> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
> >>
> >> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
> >> proper term of bent.
> >
> > When my left wrist is cocked at the top of my swing I make sure it is
> > in its most stable, neutral position and there is a slight "dish angle"
> > just like George and David Leadbetter describe. But it definitely does
> > not feel bent one way or the other I am sure of that. It is just that
> > there is a slight but noticeable angle between the back of the hand and
> > the end of my forearm. But I also observe that my left wrist naturally
> > flattens when the wrist uncocks so that my wrist still looks flat at
> > impact. I believe that that is all that Leadbetter means by the dish
> > angle. I would actually have to bend my left wrist (ie in a slight
> > palmar flexion) in order to make it look perfectly flat at the top. In
> > fact, I tend to lay the club off if I try and make the wrist completely
> > flat at the top so I prefer not to do this. I suspect that the
> > appearance of the wrist depends somewhat on the anatomy of the
> > individual. I have quite short wide muscular hands with big knuckles in
> > proportion to my relatively thin wrists so this angle will probably be
> > more evident than would be the case with someone with thicker wrists
> > and slimmer hands and fingers. Just a thought.
> > Babbs
> >
|
| |
Date: 15 Nov 2006 01:46:42
From:
Subject: Re: Flat wrist or dish angle?
|
Yes I have enjoyed this thread too, exactly the sort of thing I was
hoping to find when I first started browsing RSG. And you have made
another interesting point about the grip. When I was young I was told
to copy everything Hogan said to do and in those days, that was
certainly a good way to start. So I did, and for years various
instructors told me my grip looked perfect and sought other ways to
correct my recurring ball-striking problems. However, eventually I
realized that the Hogan grip, with the right hand very much on top of
the left simply wasn't right for me. I could not consistently get the
club into a good position at the top. So then I kept my left hand in
its neutral position (thumb pretty much directly on top of the club)
and let my right hand turn a little more under the shaft. Technically
this gives me a neutral left hand/strong right hand grip, but
everything just fits together so much better now. The club naturally
assumes a much better position at the top, with both shaft and clubface
on plane. And my arms/wrists/club work as a single interconnected lever
system, as I posted in another thread. I could never accomplish this
consistently with my old grip, with the right hand on top of the club,
because my various limbs, joints and muscles just were not positioned
correctly. But I suspect that if my hands, wrists, and arms were more
similar to Hogan's then I would need to use a grip more like his to
swing in the same way. So from my experience I firmly believe you
should fine-tune your grip to suit your individual physical
characteristics. I just used the old method of trial and error, but it
would be great if someone would provide a magic formula for identifying
the ideal grip for any individual, if such a thing is possible.
Unfortunately, I have only a rudimentary knowledge of the Golfing
Machine - does it provide any insights into how to do this?
Rgds
B
KnighT wrote:
> I have enjoyed this thread alot. It is nice to actually have some
> productive golf discussion on this golf forum. I have learned some
> good stuff as a result of this good discussion.
>
> How important is it to have a correct grip in order to support the club
> properly at the top of the swing, and just during the entire swing in
> general ?
>
> I think the semantics of what some of us are trying to say are just
> different ways of saying the same (or similar) things. I also think
> how you hold the club (especially with the left hand) is very
> important. Because if 2 people hold the club differently, they look
> different at the top (regarding the left wrist specifically) while they
> might both be in the same correct position.
>
> babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
> > Thanks George - yes I think I understand what you are saying and I
> > think you have made a very good point. The clubshaft should be pretty
> > much in line with the longitudinal axis of the wrist so that their axes
> > intersect and hence the clubshaft and forearm are on the same plane.
> > That's the true 'unbent' and most relaxed, stable and natural position.
> > The exact position of the back off the hand is really not very relevant
> > since this will vary from one individual to another.
> > Rgds
> > B
> > George Hibbard wrote:
> > > You have said perfectly what I was saying in a different way and giving the
> > > exact reason for it. One way to make this point really clear is to bow your
> > > wrist a lot and try to apply the kind of force against the club you would
> > > use to try to do a chinup. The weakened position of that bowed wrist
> > > becomes quite evident. When you pull you feel compromised. With the grip
> > > "in line" with the wrist bones instead of offset, hence with a slight angle
> > > at the dorsal side of your wrist, you are in your optimum position for
> > > REALLY applying thrust.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1163415867.772152.89210@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > KnighT wrote:
> > > >> glfnaz wrote:
> > > >> > I realize you are not asking me, but I'm going to give my opinion
> > > >> > anyway.
> > > >> > ( It's at least On Topic)
> > > >> > In good players who use a mid-body address ( dish angled left wrist at
> > > >> > address), they fold back the rt wrist in the backswing causing a FLW at
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > top. This gives them a FLW that is lying on the plane at the top. The
> > > >> > FLW
> > > >> > and clubface will be in the proper plane. They've achieved impact
> > > >> > geometry
> > > >> > at the top. That requires no compensations in the downswing. Others use
> > > >> > a
> > > >> > foreword press or " Impact fix" address to eliminate the dish angle at
> > > >> > address.
> > > >> > For me, a cupped left wrist at the top spell disaster, unless I'm
> > > >> > playing a
> > > >> > fade.
> > > >> > Why seek the FLW on the downswing? It happens too fast and is elusive
> > > >> > if not
> > > >> > planned for.
> > > >>
> > > >> I completely agree with you glfnaz.
> > > >>
> > > >> I just wish we would stop using these "dish angle/cupped wrist" terms.
> > > >> The wrist is either flat, or it is not flat. There is no inbetween, or
> > > >> sort of flat. There is no need to measure the degrees of flatness. If
> > > >> it is not flat it is bent, or arched. These are very descriptive and
> > > >> specific terms which lead no guessing to degrees of cupping or dish
> > > >> angles. The wrist can also be cocked and uncocked.
> > > >>
> > > >> So if you want to say dish angle that is fine. I prefer using the
> > > >> proper term of bent.
> > > >
> > > > When my left wrist is cocked at the top of my swing I make sure it is
> > > > in its most stable, neutral position and there is a slight "dish angle"
> > > > just like George and David Leadbetter describe. But it definitely does
> > > > not feel bent one way or the other I am sure of that. It is just that
> > > > there is a slight but noticeable angle between the back of the hand and
> > > > the end of my forearm. But I also observe that my left wrist naturally
> > > > flattens when the wrist uncocks so that my wrist still looks flat at
> > > > impact. I believe that that is all that Leadbetter means by the dish
> > > > angle. I would actually have to bend my left wrist (ie in a slight
> > > > palmar flexion) in order to make it look perfectly flat at the top. In
> > > > fact, I tend to lay the club off if I try and make the wrist completely
> > > > flat at the top so I prefer not to do this. I suspect that the
> > > > appearance of the wrist depends somewhat on the anatomy of the
> > > > individual. I have quite short wide muscular hands with big knuckles in
> > > > proportion to my relatively thin wrists so this angle will probably be
> > > > more evident than would be the case with someone with thicker wrists
> > > > and slimmer hands and fingers. Just a thought.
> > > > Babbs
> > > >
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