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Main
Date: 28 Aug 2006 02:59:24
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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Can't find a decision on this ...
A player in a moment of clumsiness drops a club in a hazard
accidentally. Is this classified as grounding your club?
Three points:
1. You are allowed to "place" your clubs in a hazard (Exception to
13-4). What is the difference between this and accidentally dropping a
club vis-a-vis testing the hazard's condition?
2. Do you have to be holding on to the club in order to "ground" it?
3. Is clumsiness OK when you accidentally lose balance and ground your
club to stop falling, but not if you lose balance and accidentally drop
your club in the process?
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 04:24:00
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:59:24 GMT, Colin Wilson <nowhere@nospam.com >
wrote:
> Can't find a decision on this ...
>
> A player in a moment of clumsiness drops a club in a hazard
> accidentally. Is this classified as grounding your club?
>
> Three points:
> 1. You are allowed to "place" your clubs in a hazard (Exception to
> 13-4). What is the difference between this and accidentally dropping a
> club vis-a-vis testing the hazard's condition?
> 2. Do you have to be holding on to the club in order to "ground" it?
> 3. Is clumsiness OK when you accidentally lose balance and ground your
> club to stop falling, but not if you lose balance and accidentally drop
> your club in the process?
If you'll forgive me, Colin, I would hazard a guess that this would be
akin to dropping a rake in a bunker, which is covered in 13-4/20 and
/21. Of course, the player must not improve his lie nor test the
condition of the soil in the hazard in the process.
Peter
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 23:34:35
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies in
Hazard
Q. A player, to prevent falling, uses a cane or club to enter or leave a
hazard when his ball lies in the hazard. Is the player in breach of Rule
13-4?
A. No, provided nothing is done which constitutes testing the condition of
the hazard or improves the lie of the ball - see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4.
"Colin Wilson" <nowhere@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:g_sIg.18997$rP1.847@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Can't find a decision on this ...
>
> A player in a moment of clumsiness drops a club in a hazard
> accidentally. Is this classified as grounding your club?
>
> Three points:
> 1. You are allowed to "place" your clubs in a hazard (Exception to
> 13-4). What is the difference between this and accidentally dropping a
> club vis-a-vis testing the hazard's condition?
> 2. Do you have to be holding on to the club in order to "ground" it?
> 3. Is clumsiness OK when you accidentally lose balance and ground your
> club to stop falling, but not if you lose balance and accidentally drop
> your club in the process?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
begin 666 decision-line.gif
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`
end
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 04:53:10
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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sfb wrote:
> 13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies in
> Hazard
>
> Q. A player, to prevent falling, uses a cane or club to enter or leave a
> hazard when his ball lies in the hazard. Is the player in breach of Rule
> 13-4?
>
> A. No, provided nothing is done which constitutes testing the condition of
> the hazard or improves the lie of the ball - see Exception 1 to Rule 13-4.
I realise this. That's why I made point 3, asking whether just
accidentally dropping a club was treated any differently from using one
as a prop to stop falling over, which is obviously no penalty according
to the Decision you quoted.
My question is more to do with a player who just accidentally drops a
club, let's say, in an "unco" moment while just walking across the
bunker to get to his/her ball.
Peter Strauss wrote:
> If you'll forgive me, Colin, I would hazard a guess that this would be
> akin to dropping a rake in a bunker, which is covered in 13-4/20 and
> /21. Of course, the player must not improve his lie nor test the
> condition of the soil in the hazard in the process.
Except a rake is not a club, obviously, so while a rake might certainly
be used to test the hazard, it doesn't come under the concept of
"grounding your club".
Hence also the question of whether you need to be holding on to the club
for it to be grounded, and also given the fact that you can place your
clubs in the hazard without penalty, so merely the club ending up on the
ground in the hazard by itself is also not a penalty.
I'm surprised there's no direct Decision, as you'd think it would be a
relatively common occurrence.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:42:22
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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Decision 13-4/3.5 sets the standard that "nothing is done which constitutes
testing the condition of
the hazard or improves the lie of the ball" is not a penalty. Accidentally
dropping a club should fall into the same category.
"Colin Wilson" <nowhere@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:WEuIg.19070$rP1.18095@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> sfb wrote:
>
>> 13-4/3.5 Player Uses Cane or Club to Enter or Leave Hazard When Ball Lies
>> in Hazard
>>
>> Q. A player, to prevent falling, uses a cane or club to enter or leave a
>> hazard when his ball lies in the hazard. Is the player in breach of Rule
>> 13-4?
>>
>> A. No, provided nothing is done which constitutes testing the condition
>> of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball - see Exception 1 to Rule
>> 13-4.
>
> I realise this. That's why I made point 3, asking whether just
> accidentally dropping a club was treated any differently from using one as
> a prop to stop falling over, which is obviously no penalty according to
> the Decision you quoted.
>
> My question is more to do with a player who just accidentally drops a
> club, let's say, in an "unco" moment while just walking across the bunker
> to get to his/her ball.
>
> Peter Strauss wrote:
>
>> If you'll forgive me, Colin, I would hazard a guess that this would be
>> akin to dropping a rake in a bunker, which is covered in 13-4/20 and
>> /21. Of course, the player must not improve his lie nor test the
>> condition of the soil in the hazard in the process.
>
> Except a rake is not a club, obviously, so while a rake might certainly be
> used to test the hazard, it doesn't come under the concept of "grounding
> your club".
>
> Hence also the question of whether you need to be holding on to the club
> for it to be grounded, and also given the fact that you can place your
> clubs in the hazard without penalty, so merely the club ending up on the
> ground in the hazard by itself is also not a penalty.
>
> I'm surprised there's no direct Decision, as you'd think it would be a
> relatively common occurrence.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:18:58
From: John Turner
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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"Colin Wilson" <nowhere@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:g_sIg.18997$rP1.847@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Can't find a decision on this ...
>
> A player in a moment of clumsiness drops a club in a hazard accidentally.
> Is this classified as grounding your club?
>
> Three points:
> 1. You are allowed to "place" your clubs in a hazard (Exception to 13-4).
> What is the difference between this and accidentally dropping a club
> vis-a-vis testing the hazard's condition?
> 2. Do you have to be holding on to the club in order to "ground" it?
> 3. Is clumsiness OK when you accidentally lose balance and ground your
> club to stop falling, but not if you lose balance and accidentally drop
> your club in the process?
>
> --
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
We had exactly this situation in an Irish PGA event last week. The eventual
winner, when walking outside a bunker in which his ball lay, accidentally
dropped a club into the bunker. There was no penalty.
It might help to look at the matter from another direction. If the player
were to be penalised, under what rule/section would you apply the penalty?
Cheers
JohnT
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 05:59:17
From: JPW
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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sfb wrote:
> Decision 13-4/3.5 sets the standard that "nothing is done which constitutes
> testing the condition of
> the hazard or improves the lie of the ball" is not a penalty. Accidentally
> dropping a club should fall into the same category.
In one sentence,sfb, you say "a standard IS set" Then in the next
sentence you say "should". Your tense has changed. Your use of the word
"should" suggests that you are deliberately hedging your bets.
Particularly when referring to ROG matters there is the world of
difference between 'should' and 'must'. From previous acquaintance I
know Colin understands this very well and is seeking anyone who has a
concrete answer to his problem.
With regard to "accidental" events in a hazard ask Michelle Wie why she
was penalised the other day for "accidental" touching of a loose
impediment in a hazard.
JPW
PS I am not suggesting what is correct either way.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:09:43
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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Note the use of the word "should" in ROG 1-4 which should provide sufficient
justification for using the word "should" in my replay should Colin choose
to accept my interpretation of the ROG should the event occur in a round
that he should play.
ROG 1-4 Points Not Covered by Rules
If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be
made in accordance with equity.
"JPW" <pat.jpwil@googlemail.com > wrote in message
news:1156769957.206834.205570@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> sfb wrote:
>> Decision 13-4/3.5 sets the standard that "nothing is done which
>> constitutes
>> testing the condition of
>> the hazard or improves the lie of the ball" is not a penalty.
>> Accidentally
>> dropping a club should fall into the same category.
>
> In one sentence,sfb, you say "a standard IS set" Then in the next
> sentence you say "should". Your tense has changed. Your use of the word
> "should" suggests that you are deliberately hedging your bets.
> Particularly when referring to ROG matters there is the world of
> difference between 'should' and 'must'. From previous acquaintance I
> know Colin understands this very well and is seeking anyone who has a
> concrete answer to his problem.
>
> With regard to "accidental" events in a hazard ask Michelle Wie why she
> was penalised the other day for "accidental" touching of a loose
> impediment in a hazard.
>
> JPW
>
> PS I am not suggesting what is correct either way.
>
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 23:09:16
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Drop club in hazard accidentally
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Colin Wilson wrote:
> Can't find a decision on this ...
>
> A player in a moment of clumsiness drops a club in a hazard
> accidentally. Is this classified as grounding your club?
>
Accidental drop - no penalty.
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