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Main
Date: 26 Aug 2006 06:46:03
From: multi
Subject: Clubhouse Rules
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As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
Caps are my own emphasis.
******
27-1 BALL LOST OR OUT OF BOUNDS
If a ball is lost or is out of bounds, the player must play a ball,
under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from
which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).
EXCEPTIONS:
2. IF THERE IS REASONABLE EVIDENCE THAT THE ORIGINAL BALL IS LOST IN
AN OBSTRUCTION (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule
25-1c) the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.
24-3 BALL LOST IN OBSTRUCTION
It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck
toward an obstruction is lost in the obstruction. In order to treat
the ball as lost in the obstruction, there must be reasonable evidence
to that effect. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be
treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
b. BALL LOST IN IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTION
If a ball is lost in an immovable obstruction, the spot where the ball
last crossed the outermost limits of the obstruction must be
determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is
deemed to lie at this spot and the player may take relief as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits
of the immovable obstruction at a spot through the green, the player
may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as
prescribed in Rule 24-2b(i).
24-2 Immovable Obstruction
b. Relief
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a
player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction
as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player
must lift the ball and drop it WITHOUT PENALTY within one club-length
of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The
nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green.
When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point
of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot
that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a
hazard and not on a putting green.
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 20:03:31
From: JJVP
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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multi wrote:
> As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
> more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
> Caps are my own emphasis.
>
> ******
> 27-1 BALL LOST OR OUT OF BOUNDS
> If a ball is lost or is out of bounds, the player must play a ball,
> under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from
> which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).
> EXCEPTIONS:
> 2. IF THERE IS REASONABLE EVIDENCE THAT THE ORIGINAL BALL IS LOST IN
> AN OBSTRUCTION (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule
> 25-1c) the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.
>
> 24-3 BALL LOST IN OBSTRUCTION
> It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck
> toward an obstruction is lost in the obstruction. In order to treat
> the ball as lost in the obstruction, there must be reasonable evidence
> to that effect. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be
> treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
> b. BALL LOST IN IMMOVABLE OBSTRUCTION
> If a ball is lost in an immovable obstruction, the spot where the ball
> last crossed the outermost limits of the obstruction must be
> determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is
> deemed to lie at this spot and the player may take relief as follows:
> (i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits
> of the immovable obstruction at a spot through the green, the player
> may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as
> prescribed in Rule 24-2b(i).
>
> 24-2 Immovable Obstruction
> b. Relief
> Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a
> player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction
> as follows:
> (i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player
> must lift the ball and drop it WITHOUT PENALTY within one club-length
> of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The
> nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green.
> When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point
> of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot
> that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a
> hazard and not on a putting green.
You are wasting your time citing the RoG's. The Tiger hatters don't
care. They did not care about the rules on the boulder incident. They
will not care this time. In their eyes, Tiger got preferential
treatment. Rules don't matter to them as long as is Tiger who got the
ruling.
JJVP
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 00:04:00
From: OldSailor
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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"JJVP" <jjvp10@gmail.com > wrote >
> You are wasting your time citing the RoG's. The Tiger hatters don't
> care. They did not care about the rules on the boulder incident. They
> will not care this time. In their eyes, Tiger got preferential
> treatment. Rules don't matter to them as long as is Tiger who got the
> ruling.
>
>
JJVP,
This has got nothing to do with whether one likes Tiger or not. Just a Rules
situation.
The first rule that should be looked at , is:
> 24-3 BALL LOST IN OBSTRUCTION
> It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck
> toward an obstruction is lost in the obstruction. In order to treat
> the ball as lost in the obstruction, there must be reasonable evidence
> to that effect. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be
> treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
Was it a FACT that Tiger's ball was lost? No - In fact the ball had been
found by the cook.
Tiger did not even start to search for the ball because he asked for a
ruling. This was understandable - he did what he had to do.
But, the Rules officials should have told him to search for the ball and if
it was not found, only then deem it lost in the obstruction, if in fact the
clubhouse is defined as an obstruction - It may not be - If it is not, then
it is part of the course and the ball must be played from where it lies or
if lost, then Rule 27 again applies.
I don't think they got it right. But that was not Tiger's fault.
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 20:11:22
From:
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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that sounds reasonable, i e, give the lost ball owner carte blanc
privileges.
>m h o
>=A0v =83 e
>d r i v i n g =A0l e s s =A0l o w e r s =A0g a s =A0p r i c e s =A0
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 14:30:03
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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> As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
> more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
> Caps are my own emphasis.
>
The thing that's weird is that the clubhouse wasn't marked OB. I seem to
recall someone in a tournament being able to take relief from a swimming
pool in a house because nobody had bothered to mark the area OB because
before the pros got there nobody had ever gotten into that particular area.
Odd though -- everywhere I've ever played the clubhouse has been marked OB.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 05:26:13
From: Douglas Siebert
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > writes:
>> As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
>> more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
>> Caps are my own emphasis.
>>
>The thing that's weird is that the clubhouse wasn't marked OB. I seem to
>recall someone in a tournament being able to take relief from a swimming
>pool in a house because nobody had bothered to mark the area OB because
>before the pros got there nobody had ever gotten into that particular area.
>Odd though -- everywhere I've ever played the clubhouse has been marked OB.
I don't see how anyplace that a pro could hit a ball wouldn't have ever
had an amateur there before. If a pro can hit into a swimming pool I'm
sure an amateur had been there before, but it just didn't happen to be a
case important enough to require the course to make sure it is clearly
marked/ruled as OB.
I've seen more than one course where the houses alongside the fairway have
no white stakes or fences on the property line and there is nothing on the
card about it being OB. I figure it is just assumed that if you hit it off
the property owned by the golf course it is OB, regardless of what the rules
may say. I'd probably assume the same thing about a clubhouse, though I do
recall playing one off the concrete patio of a clubhouse where it wasn't
marked as OB. Hitting an open faced LW off concrete to a green with water
behind it while dozens of people watch -- now that's pressure :)
--
Douglas Siebert dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net
You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:37:19
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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>
> I don't see how anyplace that a pro could hit a ball wouldn't have ever
> had an amateur there before. If a pro can hit into a swimming pool I'm
> sure an amateur had been there before, but it just didn't happen to be a
> case important enough to require the course to make sure it is clearly
> marked/ruled as OB.
>
> I've seen more than one course where the houses alongside the fairway have
> no white stakes or fences on the property line and there is nothing on the
> card about it being OB. I figure it is just assumed that if you hit it
> off
> the property owned by the golf course it is OB, regardless of what the
> rules
> may say.
>
As I recall the situation was indeed something like this -- a new course or
a new pool and no markings. I think the pool was indeed not on course
property, but I don't recall anything in the rules about property lines,
just OB. I wish I could remember more of the details of the incident, but
as I recall whoever hit it there got a ruling, the official agreed with him
that there were no stakes marking the area and therefore he was entitled to
a drop.
> I'd probably assume the same thing about a clubhouse, though I do
> recall playing one off the concrete patio of a clubhouse where it wasn't
> marked as OB. Hitting an open faced LW off concrete to a green with water
> behind it while dozens of people watch -- now that's pressure :)
>
I can't imagine being able to hit a LW off concrete even without the
pressure. I remember one Sunday after a round sitting on the clubhouse
porch and having a ball lodge in the bushes in front of us. It belonged to
a high school kid in some kind of match. After some discussion about
whether the area was in play or not (it was) and whether there was any
relief allowed because it was an ornamental planting (it wasn't), the guy
went in and hacked it out nearly reaching the 18th green about 75 yards
away. I don't know what his opponent did but that shot probably deserved at
least a halved match.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:55:11
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 05:26:13 +0000 (UTC), Douglas Siebert
<dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net > wrote:
>I don't see how anyplace that a pro could hit a ball wouldn't have ever
>had an amateur there before. If a pro can hit into a swimming pool I'm
>sure an amateur had been there before, but it just didn't happen to be a
>case important enough to require the course to make sure it is clearly
>marked/ruled as OB.
But Sergio knows where the woman is floating.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 05:09:40
From: multi
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:55:11 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 05:26:13 +0000 (UTC), Douglas Siebert
><dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net> wrote:
>
>>I don't see how anyplace that a pro could hit a ball wouldn't have ever
>>had an amateur there before. If a pro can hit into a swimming pool I'm
>>sure an amateur had been there before, but it just didn't happen to be a
>>case important enough to require the course to make sure it is clearly
>>marked/ruled as OB.
>
>But Sergio knows where the woman is floating.
Every time I see that commercial, I wonder what would have happened if
Sam Peckinpah had directed it, and the ball hit her in the eye, and
blood was spurting all over Sergio's shirt as he knelt beside her. Is
that wrong?
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:28:30
From: Ares Gee
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > writes:
> > As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
> > more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
> > Caps are my own emphasis.
> >
> The thing that's weird is that the clubhouse wasn't marked OB. I seem to
> recall someone in a tournament being able to take relief from a swimming
> pool in a house because nobody had bothered to mark the area OB because
> before the pros got there nobody had ever gotten into that particular area.
> Odd though -- everywhere I've ever played the clubhouse has been marked OB.
Warren,
Three (?) weeks ago you didn't know the status of the parking lot
at your home course. Now, you recall that the clubhouse was OB at
EVERY course you have ever played.
That's pretty incredible.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. Aress Gee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:47:11
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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>
> Three (?) weeks ago you didn't know the status of the parking lot
> at your home course. Now, you recall that the clubhouse was OB at
> EVERY course you have ever played.
>
> That's pretty incredible.
>
What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't. Concesus
is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big failings
of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is actually
on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
"Ares Gee" <invalid@not_real_address.com > wrote in message
news:bar8xl9vh3l.fsf@server007.serverquality.com...
> "warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>> > As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
>> > more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
>> > Caps are my own emphasis.
>> >
>> The thing that's weird is that the clubhouse wasn't marked OB. I seem to
>> recall someone in a tournament being able to take relief from a swimming
>> pool in a house because nobody had bothered to mark the area OB because
>> before the pros got there nobody had ever gotten into that particular
>> area.
>> Odd though -- everywhere I've ever played the clubhouse has been marked
>> OB.
>
> Warren,
> --
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mr. Aress Gee
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 20:46:39
From: Ares Gee
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > writes:
> >
> > Three (?) weeks ago you didn't know the status of the parking lot
> > at your home course. Now, you recall that the clubhouse was OB at
> > EVERY course you have ever played.
> >
> > That's pretty incredible.
> >
> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't. Concesus
> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big failings
> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is actually
> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. Aress Gee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:25:36
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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> >> >
>> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
>> Concesus
>> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
>> failings
>> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
>> actually
>> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
>> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
>> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
>
> And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
>
I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority was
made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now entering
"skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption no
doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for "damaged
turf" would help. Consider also the problem of paths. As I recall the
rules insist a path be paved in some way before it qualifies fo relief, but
there are a lot of courses with unpaved paths that ought to qualify as well.
The rule makers probably don't play on courses that get tens of thousands of
rounds with people riding under all conditions. The thing that started
this -- how do you treat buildings and parking lots. Probably could be a bit
clearer by default. (Well, maybe it is and the defaut just doesn't match
expectations.)
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:42:27
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:25:36 -0500, "warren montgomery"
<wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
>> >> >
>>> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
>>> Concesus
>>> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
>>> failings
>>> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
>>> actually
>>> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
>>> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
>>> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
>>
>> And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
>>
>I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority was
>made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now entering
>"skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
>patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
>relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption no
>doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
>isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
>marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for "damaged
>turf" would help. Consider also the problem of paths. As I recall the
>rules insist a path be paved in some way before it qualifies fo relief, but
>there are a lot of courses with unpaved paths that ought to qualify as well.
>The rule makers probably don't play on courses that get tens of thousands of
>rounds with people riding under all conditions. The thing that started
>this -- how do you treat buildings and parking lots. Probably could be a bit
>clearer by default. (Well, maybe it is and the defaut just doesn't match
>expectations.)
>Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
>http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
>
Skunks are burrowing animals:
"Wikipedia:
Skunks are nurnal, and are solitary animals when not breeding,
though in the colder parts of their range they may gather in communal
dens for warmth. During the day they shelter in burrows that they dig
with their powerful front claws, or in other man-made or natural
hollows as the opportunity arises. "
I would think you'd get relief from the damage from skunks.
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:41:40
From: Harrison Bergeron
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
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"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > writes:
> > >> >
> >> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
> >> Concesus
> >> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
> >> failings
> >> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
> >> actually
> >> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
> >> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
> >> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
> >
> > And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
> >
> I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority was
> made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now entering
> "skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
> patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
> relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption no
> doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
> isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
> marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for "damaged
> turf" would help.
Decision 33-8/32.5
> Consider also the problem of paths. As I recall the
> rules insist a path be paved in some way before it qualifies fo relief, but
> there are a lot of courses with unpaved paths that ought to qualify as well.
> The rule makers probably don't play on courses that get tens of thousands of
> rounds with people riding under all conditions.
That sounds like a assumption without any merit. Do you know
any of these 'rule makers' and where they play their golf?
> The thing that started
> this -- how do you treat buildings and parking lots. Probably could be a bit
> clearer by default. (Well, maybe it is and the defaut just doesn't match
> expectations.)
Definition of "Obstructions"
Whose expectations are we talking about here? Yours?
--
<-- Harry -- >
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:28:14
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On 28 Aug 2006 09:41:40 -0500, Harrison Bergeron
<not_a_valid@address.com > wrote:
>"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>> > >> >
>> >> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
>> >> Concesus
>> >> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
>> >> failings
>> >> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
>> >> actually
>> >> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
>> >> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
>> >> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
>> >
>> > And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
>> >
>> I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority was
>> made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now entering
>> "skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
>> patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
>> relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption no
>> doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
>> isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
>> marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for "damaged
>> turf" would help.
>
>Decision 33-8/32.5
>
Skunks are burrowing animals.........
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:53:41
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
Skunks are not burrowing animals when the tear up a course for grubs. The
ROG Burrowing Animal definition (A "burrowing animal" is an animal that
makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog,
gopher or salamander) is specifying the animal's borrow i.e. home or
shelter and not damage done foraging for food.
Florida and Texas are burdened with armadillos who will do a number on a
course tearing up turf hunting for grubs. Many courses here have a local
rule based on the note in burrowing animal definition (Note: A hole made by
a non-burrowing animal, such as a dog, is not an abnormal ground condition
unless marked or declared as ground under repair ) allowing GUR relief.
PS: If you have skunk damage on your fairways, then the skunks are the least
of your worries. Skunks plus crows, armadillos, and Sand Hill cranes are
carnivores feeding on grubs living in and eating the roots of the fairway
grass. Eventually, the grubs will do massive damage unless eradiated.
"John van der Pflum" <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote in message
news:rr26f2t1b20hrfgn1cn6ft9aicoj4rpscr@4ax.com...
> On 28 Aug 2006 09:41:40 -0500, Harrison Bergeron
> <not_a_valid@address.com> wrote:
>
>>"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>
>>> > >> >
>>> >> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
>>> >> Concesus
>>> >> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
>>> >> failings
>>> >> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
>>> >> actually
>>> >> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses
>>> >> are
>>> >> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
>>> >> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
>>> >
>>> > And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
>>> >
>>> I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority
>>> was
>>> made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now
>>> entering
>>> "skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
>>> patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
>>> relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption
>>> no
>>> doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
>>> isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
>>> marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for
>>> "damaged
>>> turf" would help.
>>
>>Decision 33-8/32.5
>>
>
> Skunks are burrowing animals.........
> --
>
> jvdp
> The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
> http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:04:16
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:53:41 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:
>Skunks are not burrowing animals when the tear up a course for grubs. The
>ROG Burrowing Animal definition (A "burrowing animal" is an animal that
>makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog,
>gopher or salamander) is specifying the animal's borrow i.e. home or
>shelter and not damage done foraging for food.
>
>Florida and Texas are burdened with armadillos who will do a number on a
>course tearing up turf hunting for grubs. Many courses here have a local
>rule based on the note in burrowing animal definition (Note: A hole made by
>a non-burrowing animal, such as a dog, is not an abnormal ground condition
>unless marked or declared as ground under repair ) allowing GUR relief.
>
>PS: If you have skunk damage on your fairways, then the skunks are the least
>of your worries. Skunks plus crows, armadillos, and Sand Hill cranes are
>carnivores feeding on grubs living in and eating the roots of the fairway
>grass. Eventually, the grubs will do massive damage unless eradiated.
>
It's either a burrowing animal -- or it's not.
Agreed -- a dog is not a burrowing animals. They don't typically live
in burrows. Skunks, OTOH, clearly live in burrows and are thus, by
definition, burrowing animals.
How do you know the skunk's purpose for digging?
PS -- Marty Stouffer is on line 2. :-)
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:23:07
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
When a skunk digs a burrow, it is an obvious hole in the ground. When a
skunk is digging for grubs, they turn over the grass much like divots and
pretty much leaving the ground undisturbed.
Relief is from the burrow (a hole or excavation in the ground made by an
animal (as a rabbit) for shelter and habitation). Holes made foraging for
food are not burrows.
Holes dug by dogs to bury bones are not burrows which is the point of the
note.
"John van der Pflum" <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote in message
news:ao46f2l5f04iftpaof1ggfmohrgpruabn6@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:53:41 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>Skunks are not burrowing animals when the tear up a course for grubs. The
>>ROG Burrowing Animal definition (A "burrowing animal" is an animal that
>>makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog,
>>gopher or salamander) is specifying the animal's borrow i.e. home or
>>shelter and not damage done foraging for food.
>>
>>Florida and Texas are burdened with armadillos who will do a number on a
>>course tearing up turf hunting for grubs. Many courses here have a local
>>rule based on the note in burrowing animal definition (Note: A hole made
>>by
>>a non-burrowing animal, such as a dog, is not an abnormal ground condition
>>unless marked or declared as ground under repair ) allowing GUR relief.
>>
>>PS: If you have skunk damage on your fairways, then the skunks are the
>>least
>>of your worries. Skunks plus crows, armadillos, and Sand Hill cranes are
>>carnivores feeding on grubs living in and eating the roots of the fairway
>>grass. Eventually, the grubs will do massive damage unless eradiated.
>>
>
> It's either a burrowing animal -- or it's not.
>
> Agreed -- a dog is not a burrowing animals. They don't typically live
> in burrows. Skunks, OTOH, clearly live in burrows and are thus, by
> definition, burrowing animals.
>
> How do you know the skunk's purpose for digging?
>
> PS -- Marty Stouffer is on line 2. :-)
> --
>
> jvdp
> The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
> http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:37:41
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:23:07 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:
>When a skunk digs a burrow, it is an obvious hole in the ground. When a
>skunk is digging for grubs, they turn over the grass much like divots and
>pretty much leaving the ground undisturbed.
>
>Relief is from the burrow (a hole or excavation in the ground made by an
>animal (as a rabbit) for shelter and habitation). Holes made foraging for
>food are not burrows.
>
>Holes dug by dogs to bury bones are not burrows which is the point of the
>note.
>
I think you're missing the point. A skunk is a burrowing animal --
meaning an animal that digs and lives in burrows. The ROG only
mention holes dug by burrowing animals. They don't mention BURROWS
dug by burrowing animals.
If it's a hole -- a burrow, to dig for grubs, to bury a secret
treasure, or to dig all the way to China -- dug by a burrowing animal
you get relief.
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:08:13
From: Harrison Bergeron
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > writes:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:53:41 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
> >Skunks are not burrowing animals when the tear up a course for grubs. The
> >ROG Burrowing Animal definition (A "burrowing animal" is an animal that
> >makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog,
> >gopher or salamander) is specifying the animal's borrow i.e. home or
> >shelter and not damage done foraging for food.
> >
> >Florida and Texas are burdened with armadillos who will do a number on a
> >course tearing up turf hunting for grubs. Many courses here have a local
> >rule based on the note in burrowing animal definition (Note: A hole made by
> >a non-burrowing animal, such as a dog, is not an abnormal ground condition
> >unless marked or declared as ground under repair ) allowing GUR relief.
> >
> >PS: If you have skunk damage on your fairways, then the skunks are the least
> >of your worries. Skunks plus crows, armadillos, and Sand Hill cranes are
> >carnivores feeding on grubs living in and eating the roots of the fairway
> >grass. Eventually, the grubs will do massive damage unless eradiated.
> >
>
> It's either a burrowing animal -- or it's not.
>
> Agreed -- a dog is not a burrowing animals. They don't typically live
> in burrows. Skunks, OTOH, clearly live in burrows and are thus, by
> definition, burrowing animals.
>
> How do you know the skunk's purpose for digging?
The Rules do not care what the purpose of the hole is. If a
burrowing animal has made a hole, that hole is an abnormal
ground condition.
--
<-- Harry -- >
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:26:55
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
The ROG does care about the purpose of the hole. The definition covers the
type of hole made by the animal. Skunks also make holes that are not
burrows.
"Harrison Bergeron" <not_a_valid@address.com > wrote in message
news:bar1wr0rggi.fsf@server007.serverquality.com...
> John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:53:41 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Skunks are not burrowing animals when the tear up a course for grubs.
>> >The
>> >ROG Burrowing Animal definition (A "burrowing animal" is an animal that
>> >makes a hole for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole,
>> >groundhog,
>> >gopher or salamander) is specifying the animal's borrow i.e. home or
>> >shelter and not damage done foraging for food.
>> >
>> >Florida and Texas are burdened with armadillos who will do a number on a
>> >course tearing up turf hunting for grubs. Many courses here have a
>> >local
>> >rule based on the note in burrowing animal definition (Note: A hole made
>> >by
>> >a non-burrowing animal, such as a dog, is not an abnormal ground
>> >condition
>> >unless marked or declared as ground under repair ) allowing GUR relief.
>> >
>> >PS: If you have skunk damage on your fairways, then the skunks are the
>> >least
>> >of your worries. Skunks plus crows, armadillos, and Sand Hill cranes are
>> >carnivores feeding on grubs living in and eating the roots of the
>> >fairway
>> >grass. Eventually, the grubs will do massive damage unless eradiated.
>> >
>>
>> It's either a burrowing animal -- or it's not.
>>
>> Agreed -- a dog is not a burrowing animals. They don't typically live
>> in burrows. Skunks, OTOH, clearly live in burrows and are thus, by
>> definition, burrowing animals.
>>
>> How do you know the skunk's purpose for digging?
>
> The Rules do not care what the purpose of the hole is. If a
> burrowing animal has made a hole, that hole is an abnormal
> ground condition.
>
> --
>
>
> <-- Harry -->
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:47:29
From: Harrison Bergeron
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
"sfb" <sfb@spam.net > writes:
> The ROG does care about the purpose of the hole. The definition covers the
> type of hole made by the animal. Skunks also make holes that are not
> burrows.
'Hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal'
says nothing about the purpose of the hole merely the maker thereof.
If the Rules meant, "burrow made by a burrowing animal" then
they would say that.
--
<-- Harry -- >
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:17:10
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On 28 Aug 2006 11:08:13 -0500, Harrison Bergeron
<not_a_valid@address.com > wrote:
>The Rules do not care what the purpose of the hole is. If a
>burrowing animal has made a hole, that hole is an abnormal
>ground condition.
Exactly!
If it's a hole made by a burrowing animal how can it not be a
burrowing animal hole?
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:19:47
From: Harrison Bergeron
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > writes:
> On 28 Aug 2006 11:08:13 -0500, Harrison Bergeron
> <not_a_valid@address.com> wrote:
>
> >The Rules do not care what the purpose of the hole is. If a
> >burrowing animal has made a hole, that hole is an abnormal
> >ground condition.
>
> Exactly!
>
> If it's a hole made by a burrowing animal how can it not be a
> burrowing animal hole?
Let's move on to a better argument, is turf that has been peeled
back to determine if grubs are beneath actually a _hole_?
--
<-- Harry -- >
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:36:42
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:14 -0400, John van der Pflum
<jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote:
>Skunks are burrowing animals.........
>--
>
>jvdp
>The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
>http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
A hole in one what?
___,
\o
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:31:31
From: Harrison Bergeron
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > writes:
> On 28 Aug 2006 09:41:40 -0500, Harrison Bergeron
> <not_a_valid@address.com> wrote:
>
> >"warren montgomery" <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >
> >> > >> >
> >> >> What can I say -- the clubhouse is marked, the parking lot isn't.
> >> >> Concesus
> >> >> is it's OB, but it's not unanimous. (This to me is one of the big
> >> >> failings
> >> >> of the ruling agencies -- assuming there is a "committee" that is
> >> >> actually
> >> >> on the ball about marking hazards, GUR, OB, etc. Most public courses are
> >> >> lousy at this. If they have a "committee", it's probably much more
> >> >> concerned with outing dates than marking the course.
> >> >
> >> > And that's the fault of the ruling bodies?
> >> >
> >> I think some things could be clearer if no assumption of local authority was
> >> made, and in some cases a bit fairer. For example -- we are now entering
> >> "skunk season" here, that time of year when the skunks start to tear up
> >> patches of turf looking for insects. I don't think this qualifies for
> >> relief under the "hole made by burrowing animal" rule and the assumption no
> >> doubt is that damaged areas of the course get marked as GUR. That just
> >> isn't going to happen most places I play -- too much damage and nobody
> >> marking it, so at least allowing a course to adopt a local rule for "damaged
> >> turf" would help.
> >
> >Decision 33-8/32.5
> >
>
> Skunks are burrowing animals.........
Fine be me (then it's covered w/o that Decision).
[Alternate reply: you should know!]
--
<-- Harry -- >
|
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 05:38:29
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:14 -0400, John van der Pflum
<jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote:
> Skunks are burrowing animals.........
TTBOMK, they are not burrowing animals.
Skunks do not only live in burrows, and those they do inhabit are
usually not made by them. They live in dens, in woodpiles, under
houses or sheds, etc.
Course damage from skunks is the result of their pulling up sod in
their search for grubs.
Such damage may be considered GUR by the committee, but it's not so by
definition.
Definition of Burrowing Animal mentions an animal "that makes a hole
for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog, gopher
or salamander."
Peter
|
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 09:35:03
From: Don Kirkman
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Peter Strauss wrote in article
<qck7f2ddcbqhmq29poef7biloaqgh32krv@4ax.com >:
>On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:28:14 -0400, John van der Pflum
><jpflumjr@ughookugh.com> wrote:
>> Skunks are burrowing animals.........
>TTBOMK, they are not burrowing animals.
>Skunks do not only live in burrows, and those they do inhabit are
>usually not made by them. They live in dens, in woodpiles, under
>houses or sheds, etc.
>Course damage from skunks is the result of their pulling up sod in
>their search for grubs.
>Such damage may be considered GUR by the committee, but it's not so by
>definition.
>Definition of Burrowing Animal mentions an animal "that makes a hole
>for habitation or shelter, such as a rabbit, mole, groundhog, gopher
>or salamander."
I found much the same information yesterday in a book about the natural
history of California mountains: skunks may den in burrows, but the
burrows are made by other animals.
--
Don Kirkman
|
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 22:33:38
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
Don Kirkman wrote:
> I found much the same information yesterday in a book about the natural
> history of California mountains: skunks may den in burrows, but the
> burrows are made by other animals.
What about if they renovate?
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 21:06:32
From: David Sneddon
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
Colin Wilson wrote:
> Don Kirkman wrote:
>
>> I found much the same information yesterday in a book about the natural
>> history of California mountains: skunks may den in burrows, but the
>> burrows are made by other animals.
>
>
> What about if they renovate?
Watch "This Old Burrow" on PBS, 9pm Thursday.
:-)
David
|
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 08:23:30
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:06:32 -0400, David Sneddon <nospam@nospam.net >
wrote:
>Colin Wilson wrote:
>> Don Kirkman wrote:
>>
>>> I found much the same information yesterday in a book about the natural
>>> history of California mountains: skunks may den in burrows, but the
>>> burrows are made by other animals.
>>
>>
>> What about if they renovate?
>
>Watch "This Old Burrow" on PBS, 9pm Thursday.
>:-)
>
>David
With Bob Armidilla
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
| | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:12:27
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
warren montgomery wrote:
>>As a public service to RSGers, including the guy who has forgotten
>>more about golf than I will ever know, here are the applicable rules.
>>Caps are my own emphasis.
>>
>
> The thing that's weird is that the clubhouse wasn't marked OB. I seem to
> recall someone in a tournament being able to take relief from a swimming
> pool in a house because nobody had bothered to mark the area OB because
> before the pros got there nobody had ever gotten into that particular area.
> Odd though -- everywhere I've ever played the clubhouse has been marked OB.
>
Was it 'Tin Cup' or 'Bagger Vance' where the Pro played out of the club
bar, through a door or a window?
That couldn't have been OOB!
david
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:48:28
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
>
> Was it 'Tin Cup' or 'Bagger Vance' where the Pro played out of the club
> bar, through a door or a window?
>
> That couldn't have been OOB!
>
Tin cup, but it wasn't part of play, it was just a silly bet (hit it out of
the clubhouse bar across a pond and hit a post where a bird was sitting).
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
|
| |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 09:56:12
From: newellsatwsu
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
John van der Pflum wrote:
> PS -- Marty Stouffer is on line 2. :-)
-------------------------------------
While Marty is trying to tranquelize the female dingo in heat with a
potato gun, I'll sit here and pet this harmless tarantula.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 14:02:02
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Clubhouse Rules
|
On 29 Aug 2006 09:56:12 -0700, "newellsatwsu"
<newellatwsu@adelphia.net > wrote:
>John van der Pflum wrote:
>> PS -- Marty Stouffer is on line 2. :-)
>-------------------------------------
>
>While Marty is trying to tranquelize the female dingo in heat with a
>potato gun, I'll sit here and pet this harmless tarantula.
You have your nature shows mixed up. That was Mutual of Omaha's Wild
Kingdom, where Marlin Perkins would send Jim down to wrestle the 25'
saltwater crocodile while he (Marlin) sat in the safety of the air
conditioned Jeep and enjoyed a nice California Chardonnay.
--
jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
|
