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Main
Date: 09 Nov 2006 09:03:48
From: larry
Subject: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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From page 5 of "Bobby Jones on Golf."
"The Feel of a Golf Club"
The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is
that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual
physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means
o fimparting velocity to the club head. We would all deo better could
we only realize that the length of a drive depends not upon the brute
force applied but upon the speed of the club head. It is a matter of
velocity rathar than of physical effort of the kind that bends
crowbars and lifts heavy weights.
I like to think of a golf club as a weight attached to my hands by an
imponderable medium, to which a string is a close approximation, and I
like to feel that I am throwing it at the ball with much the same
motion I should use in cracking a whip. By the simile, I mean to
convey the idea of a supple and lightening-quick action of the wrists
in striking---a sort of flailing action"
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
"throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
(in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
Larry
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Date: 09 Nov 2006 21:15:24
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
larry wrote:
> Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
> Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
> "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
> any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
> supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
> as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
> (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
> as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
> heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
> The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
> Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
>
> AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
> straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
> of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
>
> Larry
I guess that's why all the pros play light, whippy shafts.
Oh wait, they don't!
Comparing the swings of players from the hickory era makes as much
sense as comparing Joe Lapchick to Lebron James.
|
| |
Date: 09 Nov 2006 17:07:33
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
"larry" <larry@delmardata.com > wrote in message
news:m4n6l2d2vlo3qctbek071vlmsq2efd8l9i@4ax.com...
> From page 5 of "Bobby Jones on Golf."
>
> "The Feel of a Golf Club"
>
> The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is
> that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual
> physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means
> o fimparting velocity to the club head. We would all deo better could
> we only realize that the length of a drive depends not upon the brute
> force applied but upon the speed of the club head. It is a matter of
> velocity rathar than of physical effort of the kind that bends
> crowbars and lifts heavy weights.
>
> I like to think of a golf club as a weight attached to my hands by an
> imponderable medium, to which a string is a close approximation, and I
> like to feel that I am throwing it at the ball with much the same
> motion I should use in cracking a whip. By the simile, I mean to
> convey the idea of a supple and lightening-quick action of the wrists
> in striking---a sort of flailing action"
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
> Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
> "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
> any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
> supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
> as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
> (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
> as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
> heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
> The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
> Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
>
> AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
> straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
> of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
>
> Larry
I disagree.
Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else for
that matter.
A fine bit of wisdom:
Practice makes perfect.
Martin Levac
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Date: 09 Nov 2006 17:24:44
From: larry
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:07:33 -0500, "Martin Levac"
<vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote:
>
>"larry" <larry@delmardata.com> wrote in message
>news:m4n6l2d2vlo3qctbek071vlmsq2efd8l9i@4ax.com...
>> From page 5 of "Bobby Jones on Golf."
>>
>> "The Feel of a Golf Club"
>>
>> The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is
>> that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual
>> physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means
>> o fimparting velocity to the club head. We would all deo better could
>> we only realize that the length of a drive depends not upon the brute
>> force applied but upon the speed of the club head. It is a matter of
>> velocity rathar than of physical effort of the kind that bends
>> crowbars and lifts heavy weights.
>>
>> I like to think of a golf club as a weight attached to my hands by an
>> imponderable medium, to which a string is a close approximation, and I
>> like to feel that I am throwing it at the ball with much the same
>> motion I should use in cracking a whip. By the simile, I mean to
>> convey the idea of a supple and lightening-quick action of the wrists
>> in striking---a sort of flailing action"
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
>> Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
>> "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
>> any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
>> supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
>> as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
>> (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
>> as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
>> heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
>> The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
>> Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
>>
>> AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
>> straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
>> of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
>>
>> Larry
>
>I disagree.
>
>Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else for
>that matter.
>
>A fine bit of wisdom:
>
>Practice makes perfect.
>
>
>Martin Levac
Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
amateurs to imitate..
A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
one for free.
Larry
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| | | |
Date: 09 Nov 2006 21:20:28
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
"larry" <larry@delmardata.com > wrote in message
news:4vk7l2pkil2ph3g75es3i990mjbphe63n5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:07:33 -0500, "Martin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>"larry" <larry@delmardata.com> wrote in message
>>news:m4n6l2d2vlo3qctbek071vlmsq2efd8l9i@4ax.com...
>>> From page 5 of "Bobby Jones on Golf."
>>>
>>> "The Feel of a Golf Club"
>>>
>>> The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is
>>> that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual
>>> physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means
>>> o fimparting velocity to the club head. We would all deo better could
>>> we only realize that the length of a drive depends not upon the brute
>>> force applied but upon the speed of the club head. It is a matter of
>>> velocity rathar than of physical effort of the kind that bends
>>> crowbars and lifts heavy weights.
>>>
>>> I like to think of a golf club as a weight attached to my hands by an
>>> imponderable medium, to which a string is a close approximation, and I
>>> like to feel that I am throwing it at the ball with much the same
>>> motion I should use in cracking a whip. By the simile, I mean to
>>> convey the idea of a supple and lightening-quick action of the wrists
>>> in striking---a sort of flailing action"
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
>>> Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
>>> "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
>>> any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
>>> supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
>>> as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
>>> (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
>>> as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
>>> heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
>>> The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
>>> Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
>>>
>>> AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
>>> straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
>>> of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>
>>I disagree.
>>
>>Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else
>>for
>>that matter.
>>
>>A fine bit of wisdom:
>>
>>Practice makes perfect.
>>
>>
>>Martin Levac
>
> Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
> leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
> may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
> best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
> Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
> his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
> amateurs to imitate..
>
> A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
> one for free.
>
> Larry
I disagree again.
I thought Moe Norman was the greatest player that ever lived. No wait, I
thought Sam Snead was the greatest player that ever lived. No wait, I
thought Byron Nelson was the greatest player that ever lived. No wait, Ben
Hogan etc. George Knudson et al.
Wait, I thought Jack Nicklaus himself was the greatest player of all time by
his own account no less.
My point is that no matter if he (or anybody else for that matter) was
indeed the greatest or not, it proves nothing about technique either way.
As elements of proof to that effect, you and me can name quite a few players
with dramatically different techniques yet with impressive careers. John
Daly and Jim Furyk to name only two.
In conclusion, the ball does not lie. Ever.
Martin Levac
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 02:14:00
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
In article <4vk7l2pkil2ph3g75es3i990mjbphe63n5@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@delmardata.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:07:33 -0500, "Martin Levac"
> <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >"larry" <larry@delmardata.com> wrote in message
> >news:m4n6l2d2vlo3qctbek071vlmsq2efd8l9i@4ax.com...
> >> From page 5 of "Bobby Jones on Golf."
> >>
> >> "The Feel of a Golf Club"
> >>
> >> The great fault in the average golfer's conception of his stroke is
> >> that he considers the shaft of the club a means of transmitting actual
> >> physical force to the ball, whereas it is in reality merely the means
> >> o fimparting velocity to the club head. We would all deo better could
> >> we only realize that the length of a drive depends not upon the brute
> >> force applied but upon the speed of the club head. It is a matter of
> >> velocity rathar than of physical effort of the kind that bends
> >> crowbars and lifts heavy weights.
> >>
> >> I like to think of a golf club as a weight attached to my hands by an
> >> imponderable medium, to which a string is a close approximation, and I
> >> like to feel that I am throwing it at the ball with much the same
> >> motion I should use in cracking a whip. By the simile, I mean to
> >> convey the idea of a supple and lightening-quick action of the wrists
> >> in striking---a sort of flailing action"
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
> >> Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
> >> "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
> >> any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
> >> supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
> >> as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
> >> (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
> >> as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
> >> heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
> >> The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
> >> Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
> >>
> >> AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
> >> straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
> >> of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >I disagree.
> >
> >Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else for
> >that matter.
> >
> >A fine bit of wisdom:
> >
> >Practice makes perfect.
> >
> >
> >Martin Levac
>
> Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
> leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
> may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
> best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
> Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
> his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
> amateurs to imitate..
>
> A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
> one for free.
>
> Larry
And yet...
Jack Nicklaus himself doesn't swing like Bobby Jones...
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 18:51:14
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
larry wrote:
> Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
> leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
> may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
> best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
> Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
> his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
> amateurs to imitate..
>
> A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
> one for free.
>
> Larry
Uhhh ... you're out-of-context quote of Bobby Jones and somewhat-suspect
analysis thereof is in no way close to a lesson from Jack Nicklaus (not
to mention that $5000 is a number you probably pulled out of your ass
and that it's not at all clear that one could get or would want a real
lesson with Nicklaus). Stringing together faulty logic, half-truths, and
mis-quotes does not equal a truthful conclusion.
"Bobby Jones On Golf" is a terrific book ... I'm actually re-reading it
right now. Lots of his suggestions are still relevant and especially
useful to amateurs (or "dubs" as he likes to call them). But he even
speculates in the same book that things might be different with lighter,
modern balls and steel shafts.
Rob
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 14:14:38
From: larry
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:51:14 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net >
wrote:
>larry wrote:
>> Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
>> leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
>> may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
>> best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
>> Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
>> his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
>> amateurs to imitate..
>>
>> A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
>> one for free.
>>
>> Larry
>
>Uhhh ... you're out-of-context quote of Bobby Jones and somewhat-suspect
>analysis thereof is in no way close to a lesson from Jack Nicklaus (not
>to mention that $5000 is a number you probably pulled out of your ass
>and that it's not at all clear that one could get or would want a real
>lesson with Nicklaus). Stringing together faulty logic, half-truths, and
>mis-quotes does not equal a truthful conclusion.
>
>"Bobby Jones On Golf" is a terrific book ... I'm actually re-reading it
>right now. Lots of his suggestions are still relevant and especially
>useful to amateurs (or "dubs" as he likes to call them). But he even
>speculates in the same book that things might be different with lighter,
>modern balls and steel shafts.
>
>Rob
Get any of his new VHS tapes, all include that introduction by Jack
Nicklaus. He says pretty emphatically that we should imitate Jones'
relaxed full swing--INSTEAD of "modern teaching" which means analysis
of positions, etc. etc. But then who is Jack Nicklaus, right? And
who is Jim Flick, (who ran his golf schools), who basically says the
same thing.
But I really don't care what you do.
larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 04:16:38
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
larry wrote:
> Get any of his new VHS tapes, all include that introduction by Jack
> Nicklaus. He says pretty emphatically that we should imitate Jones'
> relaxed full swing--INSTEAD of "modern teaching" which means analysis
> of positions, etc. etc.
>
> But I really don't care what you do.
>
> larry
I thought last month you were saying we should all shorten our backswing
like Allen Doyle? So which is it? A "relaxed full swing" or a shortened
controlled swing?
On second thought, never mind. I really don't care what you think.
Rob
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 15:42:50
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
"larry" <larry@delmardata.com > wrote in message
news:p9u9l29gl72bteq2ssj6sm0qiudc3ro23o@4ax.com...
> But then who is Jack Nicklaus, right? And
> who is Jim Flick, (who ran his golf schools), who basically says the
> same thing.
>
> But I really don't care what you do.
>
> larry
Jack Nicklaus fired Jim Flick and refused to be associated with him.
He sent his own son to Rick Smith, and then went to Smith himself.
The Golf Digest Schools ( originally founded by Flick and others) fired
Flick.
Desert Mountain fired Flick.
Jack Nicklaus fired Flick.
All the PGA tour Pros fired Flick, except one, and he's not the brightest
french fry in the Happy Meal.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 19:02:23
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
In article <CS35h.29$Jd3.1@trnddc07 >, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
wrote:
> larry wrote:
> > Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
> > leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
> > may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
> > best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
> > Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
> > his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
> > amateurs to imitate..
> >
> > A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
> > one for free.
> >
> > Larry
>
> Uhhh ... you're out-of-context quote of Bobby Jones and somewhat-suspect
> analysis thereof is in no way close to a lesson from Jack Nicklaus (not
> to mention that $5000 is a number you probably pulled out of your ass
> and that it's not at all clear that one could get or would want a real
> lesson with Nicklaus). Stringing together faulty logic, half-truths, and
> mis-quotes does not equal a truthful conclusion.
>
> "Bobby Jones On Golf" is a terrific book ... I'm actually re-reading it
> right now. Lots of his suggestions are still relevant and especially
> useful to amateurs (or "dubs" as he likes to call them). But he even
> speculates in the same book that things might be different with lighter,
> modern balls and steel shafts.
>
> Rob
No, no, NO, Rob!
Bobby Jones is only the final authority on the golf swing when he agrees
with *Larry*!
Didn't you get the memo? ;-)
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 06:21:30
From: p4o2
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
annika1980 wrote:
> larry wrote:
> > Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
> > Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
> > "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
> > any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
> > supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
> > as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
> > (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
> > as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
> > heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
> > The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
> > Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
> >
> > AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
> > straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
> > of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
> >
> > Larry
>
> I guess that's why all the pros play light, whippy shafts.
> Oh wait, they don't!
>
> Comparing the swings of players from the hickory era makes as much
> sense as comparing Joe Lapchick to Lebron James.
If Jones could see the LD guys he would modify his statement about
brute force.(IMO)
|
| | |
Date: 10 Nov 2006 14:11:03
From: larry
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
On 10 Nov 2006 06:21:30 -0800, "p4o2" <p4o2@webtv.net > wrote:
>
>
>annika1980 wrote:
>> larry wrote:
>> > Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
>> > Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
>> > "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
>> > any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
>> > supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
>> > as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
>> > (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
>> > as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
>> > heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
>> > The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
>> > Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
>> >
>> > AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
>> > straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
>> > of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
>> >
>> > Larry
>>
>> I guess that's why all the pros play light, whippy shafts.
>> Oh wait, they don't!
>>
>> Comparing the swings of players from the hickory era makes as much
>> sense as comparing Joe Lapchick to Lebron James.
>
>
>If Jones could see the LD guys he would modify his statement about
>brute force.(IMO)
Jones actually wrote his books in the 60s-- when many of the modern
pros were playing, Nelson, Palmer, etc. Before he wrote "Bobby Jones
on Golf" he had seen their swings and their clubs, not a lot different
than today.
The STRONG endorsement of Jones' very relaxed full swing -- with his
statement that imitating that instead of modern teaching, i.e. the
current focus on positions, video analysis, etc would be better for
most amateurs. I think he is right. The better I become the more I
realize that simple relaxation is really the whole deal, swinging with
grip pressure light enough that I can feel the clubhead, and swinging
toward the target-- avoiding deceleration, seems to solve all the
technical aspects.
And nearly any focus on details, positions, etc. inevitably adds
tension-- and even though the positions are undoubtly correct--
tension kills everything--i.e. "paralysis by analysis" destroys more
amateur swings than anything technical.
Relax and swing.
Larry
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 04:07:49
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
|
larry wrote:
>>annika1980 wrote:
>>If Jones could see the LD guys he would modify his statement about
>>brute force.(IMO)
>
>
> Jones actually wrote his books in the 60s-- when many of the modern
> pros were playing, Nelson, Palmer, etc. Before he wrote "Bobby Jones
> on Golf" he had seen their swings and their clubs, not a lot different
> than today.
>
>
> Larry
Well this is getting boring, but you're dead wrong again. You might try
reading the foreward to the "On Golf" book that you'r quoting. There
you'll find that this book is taken from a diary and a series of
articles that he wrote "when his native talent and his insight seemed to
be at their peaks: 1927 through 1935".
Rob
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Nov 2006 01:27:06
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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In article <hqt9l2hpddhudsrhcscg20an1q2vktbb6p@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@delmardata.com > wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2006 06:21:30 -0800, "p4o2" <p4o2@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >annika1980 wrote:
> >> larry wrote:
> >> > Notice the similarity of description between Ernest Jones and Bobby
> >> > Jones-- both feeling the clubhead swinging on a string --and
> >> > "throwing" the clubhead at the ball. Both advise strongly against
> >> > any sort of leverage or pushing action from the handle-- which
> >> > supports my contention that the shaft of a golf club should as light
> >> > as possible-- and that its flexibility characteristics are irrelevant
> >> > (in a good golf swing). Hence, we should all be playing graphite and
> >> > as light in weight as possible. The best clubs would have the
> >> > heaviest clubhead in comparision to the overall weight of the club,
> >> > The ideal golf club would have a weightless shaft--"imponderable" as
> >> > Bobby Jones (the best who ever played our game) said. .
> >> >
> >> > AND, Bobby Jones thereby effectively explains why learning to hit ball
> >> > straight with a Whippy is so important-- the reduction or elimination
> >> > of leverage from the handle leads to increased consistency.
> >> >
> >> > Larry
> >>
> >> I guess that's why all the pros play light, whippy shafts.
> >> Oh wait, they don't!
> >>
> >> Comparing the swings of players from the hickory era makes as much
> >> sense as comparing Joe Lapchick to Lebron James.
> >
> >
> >If Jones could see the LD guys he would modify his statement about
> >brute force.(IMO)
>
> Jones actually wrote his books in the 60s-- when many of the modern
> pros were playing, Nelson, Palmer, etc. Before he wrote "Bobby Jones
> on Golf" he had seen their swings and their clubs, not a lot different
> than today.
Wrong again. It was originally publish in 1931.
>
> The STRONG endorsement of Jones' very relaxed full swing -- with his
> statement that imitating that instead of modern teaching, i.e. the
> current focus on positions, video analysis, etc would be better for
> most amateurs. I think he is right. The better I become the more I
> realize that simple relaxation is really the whole deal, swinging with
> grip pressure light enough that I can feel the clubhead, and swinging
> toward the target-- avoiding deceleration, seems to solve all the
> technical aspects.
>
> And nearly any focus on details, positions, etc. inevitably adds
> tension-- and even though the positions are undoubtly correct--
> tension kills everything--i.e. "paralysis by analysis" destroys more
> amateur swings than anything technical.
Except all those times when you've told us that you must focus precisely
on the details that are working for you that week...
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 09:51:45
From: Weekendshooter
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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annika1980 wrote:
> I guess that's why all the pros play light, whippy shafts.
> Oh wait, they don't!
>
> Comparing the swings of players from the hickory era makes as much
> sense as comparing Joe Lapchick to Lebron James.
Correct...
I like *alot* of what I read from Mr. Jones, and the replacement of the
hickory shaft was something he did not have the fortune of considering
when he wrote what he wrote.
Not really his fault either...
With the offseason coming, going retro and cobbling up a small set of
whippy shafted sticks and whacking them around could be fun. Dunno
where I'd get the 30-50 (?) compression balls though... :-)
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 08:26:29
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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>
> I disagree.
>
> Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else for
> that matter.
What part do you disagree with? There was a lot of stuff there.
In "The Search for a Perfect Golf Swing" they demonstrate that the
clubhead is esstially it's own body upon impact. i.e., the shaft
doesn't have any influence on the ball. The clubhead could be swinging
from the end of a swing as far as impact goes.
Certainly the shaft determines the angle of the head upon reaching
impact, but no effect upon impact itself.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 13:34:43
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1163262389.826827.195050@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
>> I disagree.
>>
>> Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else
>> for
>> that matter.
>
> What part do you disagree with? There was a lot of stuff there.
>
> In "The Search for a Perfect Golf Swing" they demonstrate that the
> clubhead is esstially it's own body upon impact. i.e., the shaft
> doesn't have any influence on the ball. The clubhead could be swinging
> from the end of a swing as far as impact goes.
>
> Certainly the shaft determines the angle of the head upon reaching
> impact, but no effect upon impact itself.
>
It appears that what I wrote was not clear enough for everybody.
Here it is again.
I disagree.
Bobby Jones is not the holder of the absolute truth. Nor is anybody else for
that matter.
What the fuck. I just wrote the same thing. Perhaps I'm trying to make a
point, who knows. Oh yes, I can't reply to Bobby Jones so I must be in
disagreement with somebody else. Let me think for a moment, oh yes, that
must be Larry I'm in disagreement with. Glad I could clear things up.
So why did I write "I disagree. Bobby Jones is the holder of the absolute
truth. Nor is anybody else for that matter"? Well, perhaps I wrote this
because at a glance, what Larry wrote gave me the impression that he was
trying to convince me of something or other by trying to convince me of
something else first which is that Bobby Jones can't be wrong and Jack
Nicklaus can't be wrong therefore Larry can't be wrong or at least he must
be right.
Wait a fucking minute, I think I disagree with that too.
Is this clear enough? I don't have a cow.
I think this isn't an intelligent conversation I'm having right now. I
think. No wait, scratch that, I don't think. Oh fuck it, use your own
fucking brain, mine is busy with porn.
Maritn Levac
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 23:31:11
From:
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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larry wrote:
> Get any of his new VHS tapes, all include that introduction by Jack
> Nicklaus. He says pretty emphatically that we should imitate Jones'
> relaxed full swing--INSTEAD of "modern teaching"
He did not say that, anus munch. I have all those tapes, all he said
(paraphrased) was Jones method was sound and there is still alot that
can be learned from it to apply to today's game.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 11:27:24
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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strat68@eudoramail.com wrote:
> He did not say that, anus munch.
You have something against specific sexual practices among married couples?
What next? Will you attack people for being Jewish, Herr Strat? *
* Godwin's Law invoked - end of thread for Strat68.
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 00:59:29
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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<strat68@eudoramail.com > wrote in message
news:1163230271.591430.204280@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> larry wrote:
>> Get any of his new VHS tapes, all include that introduction by Jack
>> Nicklaus. He says pretty emphatically that we should imitate Jones'
>> relaxed full swing--INSTEAD of "modern teaching"
>
> He did not say that, anus munch. I have all those tapes, all he said
> (paraphrased) was Jones method was sound and there is still alot that
> can be learned from it to apply to today's game.
>
Funny
Lllaarryy never tells the truth.
LLaarryy is Duke Cunningham's bitch.
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 23:22:23
From:
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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annika1980 wrote:
> larry wrote:
> > The better I become the more I
> > realize that simple relaxation is really the whole deal, swinging with
> > grip pressure light enough that I can feel the clubhead, and swinging
> > toward the target-- avoiding deceleration, seems to solve all the
> > technical aspects.
> >
>
> Larry, no offense but you haven't yet reached the level to where you
> realize anything at all about the golf swing. Not to put too fine a
> point on it, but you're a hack. Not that there's anything wrong with
> that, but why try to teach your theories to others when you haven't
> even proved that you understand them yourself?
>
> Everybody has observed the guy at the range who gives everybody tips,
> but has only broken 90 twice in his life. We all know that guy. His
> name is Larry.
Now that's the Annika we all know and love. Not that other larry
equivalent-yet-opposite pundit, at which you are both hacks btw.
Jones' films with warner bros. (I mean the swing parts) was amazing
shit for it's time. Great stuff even if LLL has no clue what to learn
from it.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 11:25:46
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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strat68@eudoramail.com wrote:
> annika1980 wrote:
>> Everybody has observed the guy at the range who gives everybody tips,
>> but has only broken 90 twice in his life. We all know that guy. His
>> name is Larry.
>
> Now that's the Annika we all know and love. Not that other larry
> equivalent-yet-opposite pundit, at which you are both hacks btw.
Since my lowest score to date is a 91; should I be listening to Larry's
golf advice? I haven't gotten below 90 yet.
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 21:20:27
From:
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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larry wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 18:51:14 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >larry wrote:
> >> Bobby Jones is only considered by essentially every great golfer,
> >> leader among them Jack Nicklaus to be the best who ever played. Tiger
> >> may someday surpass Jones' accomplishments, but right now the second
> >> best, JN, says Bobby Jones was far better than he was. Get one of the
> >> Bobby Jones videos and listen to Jack Nicklaus introduce and describe
> >> his swing and his method-- as FAR better than "modern teaching" for
> >> amateurs to imitate..
> >>
> >> A lesson from Jack Nicklaus would cost you about $5000, you just got
> >> one for free.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >Uhhh ... you're out-of-context quote of Bobby Jones and somewhat-suspect
> >analysis thereof is in no way close to a lesson from Jack Nicklaus (not
> >to mention that $5000 is a number you probably pulled out of your ass
> >and that it's not at all clear that one could get or would want a real
> >lesson with Nicklaus). Stringing together faulty logic, half-truths, and
> >mis-quotes does not equal a truthful conclusion.
> >
> >"Bobby Jones On Golf" is a terrific book ... I'm actually re-reading it
> >right now. Lots of his suggestions are still relevant and especially
> >useful to amateurs (or "dubs" as he likes to call them). But he even
> >speculates in the same book that things might be different with lighter,
> >modern balls and steel shafts.
> >
> >Rob
>
> Get any of his new VHS tapes, all include that introduction by Jack
> Nicklaus. He says pretty emphatically that we should imitate Jones'
> relaxed full swing--INSTEAD of "modern teaching" which means analysis
> of positions, etc. etc. But then who is Jack Nicklaus, right? And
> who is Jim Flick, (who ran his golf schools), who basically says the
> same thing.
>
> But I really don't care what you do.
>
> larry
I last logged into this group in 2002 and you were saying the same
thing then. Don't you ever get tired of it?
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 17:28:55
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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larry wrote:
> The better I become the more I
> realize that simple relaxation is really the whole deal, swinging with
> grip pressure light enough that I can feel the clubhead, and swinging
> toward the target-- avoiding deceleration, seems to solve all the
> technical aspects.
>
Larry, no offense but you haven't yet reached the level to where you
realize anything at all about the golf swing. Not to put too fine a
point on it, but you're a hack. Not that there's anything wrong with
that, but why try to teach your theories to others when you haven't
even proved that you understand them yourself?
Everybody has observed the guy at the range who gives everybody tips,
but has only broken 90 twice in his life. We all know that guy. His
name is Larry.
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Date: 10 Nov 2006 21:53:38
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Maybe I'll register as a democrat
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 15:21:48 -0500, "William A. T. Clark"
<clark.31@osu.edu > wrote:
>And Bush's SAT score is about 200 points lower than the average for
>incoming Yale freshmen at that time.
He was a legacy.
>Not sure quite why you scale his
>late '60s SAT up to 1300 - probably cosmetic wishful thinking based on
>urban legend.
I'm surprised that a distinguished academic like yourself doesn't know
that the SAT were re-centered in 1995 because the average score had
drifted lower. The SATs are a normative test and ETS wanted the
average score to be 500.
In any case, the SAT to IQ conversion study was published in 1962
using the old scores.
The reason I mentioned that Bush's score would be the equivalent of a
1300 today is because most people think of SAT scores in terms of
today's norms.
So if there's anyone who is the victim of falling for an urban legend,
besides thinking that different states have different average IQs,
it's the people who think that GWB is dumb.
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 13:39:49
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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Head Shot wrote:
> >
> Since my lowest score to date is a 91; should I be listening to Larry's
> golf advice? I haven't gotten below 90 yet.
How long have you been playing?
How often do you play/practice?
Have you ever had lessons?
Where do you usually play?
Forget Larry, unless you want to continue to wallow in your mediocrity.
Best thing you can do is to work on your short game. If you've never
broken 90, your short game needs work.
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 08:45:30
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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Dene wrote:
>> > Forget Larry, unless you want to continue to wallow in your mediocrity.
> > Best thing you can do is to work on your short game. If you've never
> > broken 90, your short game needs work.
>
> Short game....and prayer. ;>
>
Another thing I forgot to mention is how much instruction you can get
from books.
The winter time is a good time to do some reading. For a person new to
the game like HS, I'd recommend some books on the mental game like
Rotella's "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect" or "The Inner Game" by
Timothy Galway. Most high-handicappers I play with have the ability to
shoot much lower scores if they ever learned to think properly on the
golf course. Usually, they try to play outside their capabilities.
Just remember that the goal of each shot is to make the next shot
easier.
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 08:38:21
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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Head Shot wrote:
> annika1980 wrote:
> > How long have you been playing?
> About 8 months I think. Give or take.
Then your situation is not as drastic as it first sounded.
I know guys who play twice every week and never break 90 and have been
doing it for years.
A friend of mine was playing with a guy like that and he asked the guy
his best score ever.
The guy told him that 90 was his all-time best. "How often do you
play?" my friend asked.
"Usually twice a week on the weekends," the guy answered.
My friend said, "Damn, if you wrecked your car every time you drove it,
would you keep driving?"
>
> > Where do you usually play?
> There are 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house.
Aren't you in the Atlanta/N. GA area? The reason I asked is that
certain courses are easier than others. You should come up and play
Pungent Municiap sometime. Many golfers have enjoyed their career-best
rounds there.
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 11:55:33
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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annika1980 wrote:
> Aren't you in the Atlanta/N. GA area? The reason I asked is that
> certain courses are easier than others. You should come up and play
> Pungent Municiap sometime. Many golfers have enjoyed their
> career-best rounds there.
I am west of Atlanta by an hour or so (depending on traffic, of course). I
do Greystone once a week (leave work early) and either West Pines or
Creekside on the weekend. If I am willing to drive 20 to 30 minutes; the
list of courses expands to at least a dozen or so. I have done 72 holes
in a week a few times already - I find golfing to be really theraputic no
matter how I do. I typically par a few and bogey most of the rest. The
worst I have ever played from the white tees is 104; and I average the mid
90's. I have shot a 91 and a ton of 92's; and my best 9 hole was a 41 on
the front 9 at Greystone. I am reasonably athletic for my age (45) and I
think that helps me a bit.
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
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Date: 14 Nov 2006 18:03:38
From: Steven Paul
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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In article <1163349501.100961.78990@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com > wrote:
> I know guys who play twice every week and never break 90 and have been
> doing it for years.
The golfer with the most perseverance I've ever seen played over 500
rounds before he broke 100. When he finally did it he had a grin wider
than his ears. And now he's actually broken 80 once.
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Date: 14 Nov 2006 17:03:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:03:38 -0600, Steven Paul
<listcatcher@fastOUTmail.fm > wrote:
>In article <1163349501.100961.78990@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I know guys who play twice every week and never break 90 and have been
>> doing it for years.
>
>The golfer with the most perseverance I've ever seen played over 500
>rounds before he broke 100. When he finally did it he had a grin wider
>than his ears. And now he's actually broken 80 once.
500 rounds? I have been playing golf over 5 years and likely
accumulated far less than 200 rounds, significantly less than one per
week. 500 rounds goes under the 'get a life' category. Whew! I am
65 now; I will NEVER play 500 rounds of golf.
Larry
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 00:09:30
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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Head Shot wrote:
> annika1980 wrote:
> > How long have you been playing?
>
> About 8 months I think. Give or take.
>
That's your only problem. Mid 90's is quite good for someone who's
been playing less than a year. It took me a whole season to break 100.
Golf is hard....period....but if you stay with your present course of
instruction and practice, soon you'll be very upset with any score in
the 90's.
Also, I'd pay a visit Lynn Blake's site, perhaps get a lesson with him.
He lives in Atlanta.
-Greg
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Date: 11 Nov 2006 23:45:07
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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annika1980 wrote:
> Head Shot wrote:
> > >
> > Since my lowest score to date is a 91; should I be listening to Larry's
> > golf advice? I haven't gotten below 90 yet.
>
> How long have you been playing?
> How often do you play/practice?
> Have you ever had lessons?
> Where do you usually play?
>
> Forget Larry, unless you want to continue to wallow in your mediocrity.
> Best thing you can do is to work on your short game. If you've never
> broken 90, your short game needs work.
Short game....and prayer. ; >
-Greg
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 02:48:42
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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annika1980 wrote:
> How long have you been playing?
About 8 months I think. Give or take.
> How often do you play/practice?
Shoot 9 or 18 every weekend; and a bucket of balls on the range.
> Have you ever had lessons?
12 one hour lessons with a PGA pro
> Where do you usually play?
There are 3 courses within 10 minutes of my house.
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 14:06:49
From: Carbon
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 02:48:42 -0500, Head Shot wrote:
> annika1980 wrote:
>> How long have you been playing?
>
> About 8 months I think. Give or take.
I have a pretty smart friend who says it takes five years just to be bad
at golf. It's a hard game. And it's like staying in shape. You have to
keep at it or you'll slide back to where you started.
What I do when I'm working on my game is take a lesson every week or two,
get some practice time in and divide it between the short and long games,
and when I'm on the course, really try to stay focused on what I'm doing
and concentrate fully on every shot. That last one is the hardest. But you
know, it's very satisfying to be sitting in the clubhouse after the round
and know you played to your handicap when your swing was in the toilet.
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Date: 12 Nov 2006 17:45:18
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Bobby Jones on golf shafts
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 14:06:49 GMT, Carbon
<nobrac@nospam.tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>I have a pretty smart friend who says it takes five years just to be bad
>at golf. It's a hard game. And it's like staying in shape. You have to
>keep at it or you'll slide back to where you started.
I think it was Scientific American that had an article about studies
that show that it takes 10 years to be competent at anything.
Although some endeavors show our faults easier than others.
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