Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

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Date: 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:25:49
From: dugjustdug
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

I took my 12 year old step son out to his first course (outside of the
Par 3 course he had been learning on all summer). He wanted to try
hitting a shot out of the sand on the final hole since he had managed
to avoid the bunkers on the prior 8 holes. Since no one was following
us, I tossed one in the bunker and told him how to strike down behind
the ball so as to create the explosion shot. He executed it perfectly.

He next question was, "So what am I supposed to do to clean all this
up?" He gets it. I told him that the motto should be, "Never let 'em
know you were here!"

Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:46:25
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:34:11
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

> Why doesn't the USGA call an unfixed divot or unraked trap "ground under
> repair"? It would make for better golf for those of us who actually play by
> the rules. In fact, it could be called something different, thus allowing
> you to fix the issue and place your ball in exactly the same spot rather
> than taking a drop. It only seems like common sense to me.

I'm with you on the divots, but not on the trap.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:42:29
From: Frank Ketchum
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1156779251.511718.243450@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm with you on the divots, but not on the trap.
>

Yeah, placing a ball in the trap I guess doesn't make sense, but I think it
would make sense to allow a player to rake the trap then drop the ball where
it was.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 20:18:59
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Frank Ketchum" <fketchum@earthlinknospaam.net > wrote in message
news:F9EIg.2467$bM.715@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1156779251.511718.243450@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > I'm with you on the divots, but not on the trap.
> >
>
> Yeah, placing a ball in the trap I guess doesn't make sense, but I think
it
> would make sense to allow a player to rake the trap then drop the ball
where
> it was.
>
>

There is something (IMHO) "very ungolflike" in maintaining that your lie in
a hazard isn't as good as it should be.

dave

Date: 29 Aug 2006 02:28:04
From: Frank Ketchum
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:TcIIg.2579$bM.2167@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> There is something (IMHO) "very ungolflike" in maintaining that your lie
> in
> a hazard isn't as good as it should be.
>

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a golfer being penalized
based upon how well the numbnut playing in the group ahead of him left the
course. I think unrepaired divots, pitch marks on greens and unraked
bunkers all fall in the same category and should not be the problem of the
golfers in the following group. They are the responsibility of the person
creating them to fix and if they don't it should not affect the game of
someone else. I have yet to hear a good reason why it should be any
different.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 00:00:55
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:TcIIg.2579$bM.2167@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Frank Ketchum" <fketchum@earthlinknospaam.net> wrote in message
> news:F9EIg.2467$bM.715@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1156779251.511718.243450@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > I'm with you on the divots, but not on the trap.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, placing a ball in the trap I guess doesn't make sense, but I think
> it
> > would make sense to allow a player to rake the trap then drop the ball
> where
> > it was.
> >
> >
>
> There is something (IMHO) "very ungolflike" in maintaining that your lie
in
> a hazard isn't as good as it should be.
>
> dave
>
>

FWIW, hoping that a ball will roll into 'a hazard' instead of the rough
around the greens, also strikes me as "very ungolflike".

dave

Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:32:49
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

The_Professor wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
> I always rake the bunkers, but IMHO, it should not be allowed. They
> should be a hazard. As it is, on a good course, with real rough around
> the greens, they are too often a savior that catches bad shots and
> leaves you a shot at a par off a bad approach shot. There should be 4"
> deep footprints in bunkers. If they are not going to be a hazard, they
> shouldn't be there.

It's certainly an argument, but in tournament conditions, what's
stopping the groups in front of you from taking 100 steps in the bunker
just for the hell of it?

I agree that bunker should be penal, but for most amateurs, they
already are.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:26:48
From: Brian Foster
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

It was me, I never rake them. Is that what that thing is for? Why were you
in the bunker in the first place silly? EVERYONE knows it's easier to hit
the ball off the grass than it is to play it out of the sand.

I thought those rake thingies were to get your ball out without walking in
the trap. Then I usually do a "do over" shot, or two.....

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1156768606.529994.154930@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>

Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:18:01
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 14:51:30
From: Frank Ketchum
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1156768606.529994.154930@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>

Unraked traps, unrepaired pitch marks, unfixed divots... it's enough to
drive a person insane. And I am not talking about the local municipal dog
track either, you will find it on nice expensive courses. I know who these
people are. They are idiots who think they are good golfers but somehow
never put together a good round. Everyone knows the type. They walk around
too pissed off to have any consideration of others. They do not belong on a
golf course.

I do have one pet peeve though, and that is courses that don't have a rake
at each trap. Most people are not going to rake a trap if there is no rake
there. I do my best by smoothing it with my foot, but it isn't as good as
raking it.

Why doesn't the USGA call an unfixed divot or unraked trap "ground under
repair"? It would make for better golf for those of us who actually play by
the rules. In fact, it could be called something different, thus allowing
you to fix the issue and place your ball in exactly the same spot rather
than taking a drop. It only seems like common sense to me.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 23:55:52
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
shouldn't be hazardous.

But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
roll into them.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:lj07f2h56u07jqvl4onsshj478g1727lga@4ax.com...
> If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
> raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
> shouldn't be hazardous.
>
> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> roll into them.

It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?

Date: 29 Aug 2006 13:08:32
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote in message
news:73WIg.1701$nL2.388@fed1read02...
>
> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
> news:lj07f2h56u07jqvl4onsshj478g1727lga@4ax.com...
> > If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
> > raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
> > shouldn't be hazardous.
> >
> > But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> > roll into them.
>
> It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
> divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
> should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
>
>

Bermuda is amazing stuff. I've got Tifsport in my back yard (same kind of
Bermuda hybrid that golf courses often use - similar to Tifton 419). I had
some construction done and a landscaping tractor left a huge track in the
yard about 15 inches wide and 6 inches deep (30 feet long). I just filled it
with soil and it took about 6-8 weeks for that "divot" to completely heal.
It was impossible to find even if you were looking for it by the end of the
summer.

dave

Date: 29 Aug 2006 13:39:20
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: OT re: grass types

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:k%WIg.2807$xQ1.1103@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
> news:73WIg.1701$nL2.388@fed1read02...
>>
>> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
>> news:lj07f2h56u07jqvl4onsshj478g1727lga@4ax.com...
>> > If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
>> > raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
>> > shouldn't be hazardous.
>> >
>> > But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
>> > roll into them.
>>
>> It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
>> divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
>> should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
>>
>>
>
> Bermuda is amazing stuff. I've got Tifsport in my back yard (same kind of
> Bermuda hybrid that golf courses often use - similar to Tifton 419). I had
> some construction done and a landscaping tractor left a huge track in the
> yard about 15 inches wide and 6 inches deep (30 feet long). I just filled
> it
> with soil and it took about 6-8 weeks for that "divot" to completely heal.
> It was impossible to find even if you were looking for it by the end of
> the
> summer.
>
> dave

What kind of climate do you have? I live in the desert and we've got fescue.
I don't like it. It was sodded and it feels mushy underneath and it just
doesn't seem like good old bermuda or rye. If the bermuda tif would work
here I'd plant it this month, maybe, if my neighbor isn't at risk for it
taking over his yard. Sorry for the OT ramble.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 21:14:43
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: OT re: grass types

"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote in message
news:hH1Jg.1720$nL2.993@fed1read02...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:k%WIg.2807$xQ1.1103@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
> > news:73WIg.1701$nL2.388@fed1read02...
> >>
> >> "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message
> >> news:lj07f2h56u07jqvl4onsshj478g1727lga@4ax.com...
> >> > If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
> >> > raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
> >> > shouldn't be hazardous.
> >> >
> >> > But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> >> > roll into them.
> >>
> >> It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
> >> divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so
they
> >> should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Bermuda is amazing stuff. I've got Tifsport in my back yard (same kind
of
> > Bermuda hybrid that golf courses often use - similar to Tifton 419). I
had
> > some construction done and a landscaping tractor left a huge track in
the
> > yard about 15 inches wide and 6 inches deep (30 feet long). I just
filled
> > it
> > with soil and it took about 6-8 weeks for that "divot" to completely
heal.
> > It was impossible to find even if you were looking for it by the end of
> > the
> > summer.
> >
> > dave
>
> What kind of climate do you have? I live in the desert and we've got
fescue.
> I don't like it. It was sodded and it feels mushy underneath and it just
> doesn't seem like good old bermuda or rye. If the bermuda tif would work
> here I'd plant it this month, maybe, if my neighbor isn't at risk for it
> taking over his yard. Sorry for the OT ramble.
>
>

I live in North Carolina. Bermuda hybrids are basically "sod only" (I am
aware of one type that is available as seed, but it is outrageously
expensive). The only problem that I see with a desert climate is the
evenings. Bermuda thrives in some damned hot weather, but needs warm
evenings to do well.

dave

Date: 29 Aug 2006 12:37:12
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:

>> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
>> roll into them.
>
>It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
>divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
>should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?

That's why they preach that. But if the grass won't take, the mowers
will shred them next time they pass. That's at least better than
leaving the divots sitting there on the fairway. Meanwhile, the
ball is more likely to roll over the divot hole.

It's easy enough to ask your grounds keeper or course manager what
they prefer at your club - which will probably work for the same type
of grass in your area. But everybody "knows" the right way - just as
they "know" the right way to repair ball marks on the greens. Even
if they are wrong.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 13:35:18
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

That's an interesting point about rolling over the diviot but couldn't the
same arguement be used for sand? And if it stops on top of a crappy divot
replacement, I imagine it can be a very unpredictable lie.

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:i3d8f2p8v109t3vsbl84dqjhhbqntar5lp@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
>>> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
>>> roll into them.
>>
>>It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
>>divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
>>should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
>
> That's why they preach that. But if the grass won't take, the mowers
> will shred them next time they pass. That's at least better than
> leaving the divots sitting there on the fairway. Meanwhile, the
> ball is more likely to roll over the divot hole.
>
> It's easy enough to ask your grounds keeper or course manager what
> they prefer at your club - which will probably work for the same type
> of grass in your area. But everybody "knows" the right way - just as
> they "know" the right way to repair ball marks on the greens. Even
> if they are wrong.

Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:58:33
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:35:18 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:

>That's an interesting point about rolling over the diviot but couldn't the
>same arguement be used for sand? And if it stops on top of a crappy divot
>replacement, I imagine it can be a very unpredictable lie.

I figure, leave it as close to fairway as possible - as measured by
how the ball will roll through it.

And when I find an old dried out divot sitting on the fairway, I pick
it up and move it somewhere else.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 14:57:19
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Frank Ketchum wrote:

> Why doesn't the USGA call an unfixed divot or unraked trap "ground under
> repair"? It would make for better golf for those of us who actually play by
> the rules. In fact, it could be called something different, thus allowing
> you to fix the issue and place your ball in exactly the same spot rather
> than taking a drop. It only seems like common sense to me.
>
>
You mean they're not?! Don't tell some of the 85+ year olds I've played
with! More power to them!

Henry

Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:32:28
From: long&left
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Larry Bud wrote:
> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>

the biggest problem that I run into is at both the course I live at and
the club I belong to the rakes are kept in the bunkers. The course I
live at is public so unraked bunkers are a constant but at the club the
footprints that I see most often are from someone who has to walk into
the bunker to get a rake, then walk out and enter somewhere else to hit
their ball. They will rake the second mess but not the first. I don't
know if it's forgetfulness or lack of understanding that you can rake
the first area without penalty before you hit your ball from another
area of a bunker??

And, I've voodoo'd more than one person for me being in a footprint in a
bunker. I can only hope that they didn't really get what I hoped they'd
get :)
Dave

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:03:14
From: Hunt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

In article <Y7DIg.124$Gl3.87@newsfe04.lga >, nospam@diespammers.com says...
>
>Larry Bud wrote:
>> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them...
[SNIP].
>>
>
>the biggest problem that I run into is at both the course I live at and
>the club I belong to the rakes are kept in the bunkers. The course I
>live at is public so unraked bunkers are a constant but at the club the
>footprints that I see most often are from someone who has to walk into
>the bunker to get a rake, then walk out and enter somewhere else to hit
>their ball. They will rake the second mess but not the first. I don't
>know if it's forgetfulness or lack of understanding that you can rake
>the first area without penalty before you hit your ball from another
>area of a bunker??
>
>
[SNIP]

>Dave

Not to hijack Larry Bud's thread, but long&left brought up a good point, and
it is a good tangent to the OP. What is the "best" way to handle the position
/location of the rake(s) in and around a bunker? My CC lists their rules (
which have changed several times) as: "rakes are to be placed in the bunker,
with the tines up and the handle touching the bunker lip. They are to project
as nearly perpendicular, as is possible from the bunker lip." OK, I can do
this. My "home" course asks that rakes be placed outside the bunker, in such a
place as to least likely interfer with a shot toward said bunker. Again, I can
choose a spot away from the normal ball path toward the green, and place the
rake near, but outside that bunker. Other courses do not have printed "rules,"
that I have encountered, so I usually go with #2 - outside, away from the "
normal ball path," etc. What do YOUR course like in the way of rake placement?

And yes, I always rake my imprints, plus all others near-by in the bunker. If
I'm on, and others are chipping/pitching, I will rake any bad prints, if I can
do so, without holding up my group.

Several rounds ago, I was sitting on a "shelf" created by a footprint at the
top of a very steep bunker wall. I had to kneel outside the bunker and swing
down onto this F*ckin' shelf, just to get the ball to fall back into the
bottom of the bunker. One footprint, at the very top, and I had to HIT it!

Hunt

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:44:31
From: WhiteOut
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"rakes are to be placed in the bunker,
> with the tines up and the handle touching the bunker lip. They are to
> project
> as nearly perpendicular, as is possible from the bunker lip."

i have never seen a rake placed like this in a bunker before. and i find
the 'tines up' part interesting. basic safety lessons of using
tools...always hand the tool to the user handle first, and blade/tine
down...

Date: 28 Aug 2006 23:47:49
From: Hunt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

In article <3YFIg.12616$1f6.8457@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net >, gofins@07.com
says...
>
> "rakes are to be placed in the bunker,
>> with the tines up and the handle touching the bunker lip. They are to
>> project
>> as nearly perpendicular, as is possible from the bunker lip."
>
>i have never seen a rake placed like this in a bunker before. and i find
>the 'tines up' part interesting. basic safety lessons of using
>tools...always hand the tool to the user handle first, and blade/tine
>down...

I agree with you, and until last season, the rule read: "tines down." Why
tines up? I haven't a clue. Now, unlike your average garden rake, the bunker
rake's tines are quite short. If the rake head is placed in the bunker, tines
up, there is likely to be an indentation, perpendicular to the handle of the
rake. I suppose that with tines down, one might find small impressions in the
sand from the tines. Personally, I'd rather have the tine holes, than the
impression of the back of the rake head.

As an aside on the CC course, it was rebuilt about four years back, and
bunkers were added, plus most deepened, with a straight cut of the sod,
producing a vertical wall of about 2". The members complained, to beat the
band, and most of these bunkers were re-configured to allow easier egress.

As someone else stated, a bunker is supposed to be penal, and being able to
putt out of it defeats the purpose. However, it is the membership that
eventurially dictated the way a course is maintained.

Hunt

Date: 02 Sep 2006 09:42:00
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

WhiteOut wrote:
> "rakes are to be placed in the bunker,
>> with the tines up and the handle touching the bunker lip. They are to
>> project
>> as nearly perpendicular, as is possible from the bunker lip."
>
> i have never seen a rake placed like this in a bunker before. and i find
> the 'tines up' part interesting. basic safety lessons of using
> tools...always hand the tool to the user handle first, and blade/tine
> down...
>
>
When asked about how he played, my Dad would sometimes answer "I stepped
on a rake in the sand trap; best two balls I hit all day!"

Henry

Date: 02 Sep 2006 20:48:22
From: rich
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Henry" <HenryNot@home.com > wrote in message
news:YKgKg.129569$LF4.57438@dukeread05...
> WhiteOut wrote:
>> "rakes are to be placed in the bunker,
>>> with the tines up and the handle touching the bunker lip. They are to
>>> project
>>> as nearly perpendicular, as is possible from the bunker lip."
>>
>> i have never seen a rake placed like this in a bunker before. and i find
>> the 'tines up' part interesting. basic safety lessons of using
>> tools...always hand the tool to the user handle first, and blade/tine
>> down...
> When asked about how he played, my Dad would sometimes answer "I stepped
> on a rake in the sand trap; best two balls I hit all day!"

Dang, coffee on the laptop screen again!

ROFL

Rich

Date: 29 Aug 2006 04:50:22
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:32:28 -0700, long&left <nospam@diespammers.com >
wrote:

> I don't
> know if it's forgetfulness or lack of understanding that you can rake
> the first area without penalty before you hit your ball from another
> area of a bunker??

Time to re-read 13-4, Dave, and also Dec. 13-4/11 for an appropriate
parallel.
You can only rake before a stroke if you've already made a stroke from
the bunker and your ball is still in it, albeit in a different place.
In the situation you describe, raking amounts to testing the condition
of the hazard, and is prohibited.

Peter

Date: 28 Aug 2006 20:50:43
From: RoR
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:32:28 -0700, long&left <nospam@diespammers.com > wrote:

>Larry Bud wrote:
>> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>>
>
>the biggest problem that I run into is at both the course I live at and
>the club I belong to the rakes are kept in the bunkers. The course I
>live at is public so unraked bunkers are a constant but at the club the
>footprints that I see most often are from someone who has to walk into
>the bunker to get a rake, then walk out and enter somewhere else to hit
>their ball. They will rake the second mess but not the first. I don't
>know if it's forgetfulness or lack of understanding that you can rake
>the first area without penalty before you hit your ball from another
>area of a bunker??
>
>And, I've voodoo'd more than one person for me being in a footprint in a
>bunker. I can only hope that they didn't really get what I hoped they'd
>get :)
>Dave

Dammit Dave, It explains why I've been doing shitty on the course since RSG-NW. OK, I
forgot to rake one friggin' bunker, but it was really shitty weather and I figured we'd
get signaled off the course any moment.

Please, please, lift the curse. My game is the shits and now I know why.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.

How much should I send? And to where?

[OK, this is all in humor, but there have been occasions where I don't rake. 1) Where
there is no rake with which to rake, 2) Where the footprints pervade every aspect of the
bunker already - I'm not doing the entire bunker! 3) Where it's getting pitch black out
and I know the grounds crew will groom the bunkers first thing in the morning. Otherwise,
It's like ball marks, rake mine and smooth out other imperfections as well.]

Rick R

Date: 28 Aug 2006 14:01:42
From: long&left
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

RoR wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:32:28 -0700, long&left <nospam@diespammers.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>>>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>>>which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>>>plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>>>HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>>>that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>>>downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>>>green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>>>
>>
>>the biggest problem that I run into is at both the course I live at and
>>the club I belong to the rakes are kept in the bunkers. The course I
>>live at is public so unraked bunkers are a constant but at the club the
>>footprints that I see most often are from someone who has to walk into
>>the bunker to get a rake, then walk out and enter somewhere else to hit
>>their ball. They will rake the second mess but not the first. I don't
>>know if it's forgetfulness or lack of understanding that you can rake
>>the first area without penalty before you hit your ball from another
>>area of a bunker??
>>
>>And, I've voodoo'd more than one person for me being in a footprint in a
>>bunker. I can only hope that they didn't really get what I hoped they'd
>>get :)
>>Dave
>
>
> Dammit Dave, It explains why I've been doing shitty on the course since RSG-NW. OK, I
> forgot to rake one friggin' bunker, but it was really shitty weather and I figured we'd
> get signaled off the course any moment.
>
> Please, please, lift the curse. My game is the shits and now I know why.
>
> Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.
>
> How much should I send? And to where?

>
> [OK, this is all in humor, but there have been occasions where I don't rake. 1) Where
> there is no rake with which to rake, 2) Where the footprints pervade every aspect of the
> bunker already - I'm not doing the entire bunker! 3) Where it's getting pitch black out
> and I know the grounds crew will groom the bunkers first thing in the morning. Otherwise,
> It's like ball marks, rake mine and smooth out other imperfections as well.]
>
>
>
> Rick R
>
>
>

OK, you are hereby unVooDoo'd. No payment required unless you'd like to
make a voluntary donation to the Bayou VooDoo Assn, New Orleans, LA :)

Date: 28 Aug 2006 06:32:54
From: Frankenshank
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Larry Bud wrote:
> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them...

Gotta say here that I am ALWAYS meticulous about sandtraps.
I always grab the rake when I walk into the trap, and smooth my tracks
etc. along with whatever other footprints I can reach.

Always repair my pitch marks, as well as my playing partners, If I
reach the green first.
Divots too.

I just can't stand to think that my unrepaired divot, or pitch mark may
ruin some other guys shot at breaking 80.

FrankenShank

Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:09:22
From: spring
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:59:37
From: Vandar
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:02:35
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:59:37 GMT, Vandar <vandar69@yahoo.com > wrote:

>Larry Bud wrote:
>
>> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
>There are only two scenarios in which I wouldn't rake a trap:
>1 - There is no rake, in which case I'll smooth it out with my foot when
>I'm done.
>2 - I didn't play from one.

I rake traps that I haven't played all of the time, because someone
else didn't.
___,
\o

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:13:08
From: Howard U. Dewing
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Bobby Knight wrote:

>
>
> I rake traps that I haven't played all of the time, because someone
> else didn't.

Ditto. It's like repairing ball marks you didn't make.

--
Howard U. Dewing
I made up this name. It was a choice between this and Watson deMehneux.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:46:57
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.

Isn't that a pisser? It's beyond belief that anyone wouldn't make
some attempt at repair. This isn't something that occurs only at
public courses either, which really is puzzling. If you're a member
at a club, shouldn't you know better...or at least care?
___,
\o

Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:21:06
From: Kenny Stultz
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

In article <69p5f2932srbkoj44t7rjh83nhoq4pedkl@4ax.com >, bknight@conramp.net
says...
>
>On 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>>which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>>plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>>HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>>that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>>downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>>green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
>Isn't that a pisser? It's beyond belief that anyone wouldn't make
>some attempt at repair. This isn't something that occurs only at
>public courses either, which really is puzzling. If you're a member
>at a club, shouldn't you know better...or at least care?
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 28 Aug 2006 21:00:41
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>> which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>> plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>> HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>> that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>> downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>> green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
> Isn't that a pisser? It's beyond belief that anyone wouldn't make
> some attempt at repair. This isn't something that occurs only at
> public courses either, which really is puzzling. If you're a member
> at a club, shouldn't you know better...or at least care?

My frequent playing partner treats every trap he lands in as a Zen
garden. He spends about 2 minutes fixing up his foot prints and where
his clubs lands and fixes everything else around it too.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 23:53:39
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:46:57 -0500, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>Isn't that a pisser? It's beyond belief that anyone wouldn't make
>some attempt at repair. This isn't something that occurs only at
>public courses either, which really is puzzling. If you're a member
>at a club, shouldn't you know better...or at least care?

The advantage of raking is that it makes it fairly the same for
players early and late in a tournament.

The disadvantage of raking it that it makes the hazards less
hazardous.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 03:16:04
From: Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.

They want me to rake their goddam traps, let them pay me. Same thing
with repairing ball marks. NOT MY JOB.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 10:51:13
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

>
>>I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
>>which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
>>plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
>>HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
>>that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
>>downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
>>green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
There are two times I don't rake them -- When I can see the guy with the
raking machine coming to take care of it, and when there are no rakes around
(in that case I do the best I can to smooth it out). Footprints are bad,
but even worse in my experience are the washouts where water from rain or
overwatering runs into a bunker.
>
>"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
>message > They want me to rake their goddam traps, let them pay me. Same
>thing
> with repairing ball marks. NOT MY JOB.
>
Gee, if you don't get paid to eat, drink and breath will you stop doing that
too :-)
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery

Date: 29 Aug 2006 11:01:21
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:51:13 -0500, "warren montgomery"
<wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

>>"Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS" <xeton2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>message > They want me to rake their goddam traps, let them pay me. Same
>>thing
>> with repairing ball marks. NOT MY JOB.
>>
>Gee, if you don't get paid to eat, drink and breath will you stop doing that
>too :-)

We can only hope.
___,
\o

Date: 30 Aug 2006 18:01:01
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:51:13 -0500, "warren montgomery"
<wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

>There are two times I don't rake them -- When I can see the guy with the
>raking machine coming to take care of it, and when there are no rakes around
>(in that case I do the best I can to smooth it out).

This year, the sand is much better than it has been in the past at my
home course. We have a new manager who is very aggressive in making
the course better - I wonder if they got new power rakers or whether
he just made sure that the crew raked better.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 19:38:54
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Frank Ketchum wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:TcIIg.2579$bM.2167@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > There is something (IMHO) "very ungolflike" in maintaining that your lie
> > in
> > a hazard isn't as good as it should be.
> >
>
> I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a golfer being penalized
> based upon how well the numbnut playing in the group ahead of him left the
> course. I think unrepaired divots, pitch marks on greens and unraked
> bunkers all fall in the same category and should not be the problem of the
> golfers in the following group. They are the responsibility of the person
> creating them to fix and if they don't it should not affect the game of
> someone else. I have yet to hear a good reason why it should be any
> different.

I don't think that would be golf... I'm not against the idea of fixing
your damage (and when appropriate the damage of others) at least on
greens and fairways, but at the same time accept what you get, play it
the best you can and live with it. Bunkers should be a place to be
avoided at all costs. They should always be a place you don't want to
go and if you do go there you should expect that it isn't going to be
pleasant. Decent to good golfers don't fear well maintained bunkers at
all. In fact they often consider them the best place to be. Leaving
them unraked or marginally raked (like the mising tootth rake) could
change this and make them hazards again. I don't see that as a bad
thing. Raking bunkers is akin to mowing down all the gorse, etc. If
you don't want to hitt from the gorse... don't hit it there. If you
don't want to hit form a foot print, etc. in a bunker... don't hit it
there.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 02:55:19
From: Frank Ketchum
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1156819133.958786.73730@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

> but at the same time accept what you get, play it
> the best you can and live with it.

This I do, it is part of golf. That doesn't mean that every single thing
that happens on the course is right.

> Bunkers should be a place to be
> avoided at all costs. They should always be a place you don't want to
> go and if you do go there you should expect that it isn't going to be
> pleasant.

There is enough hazard in bunkers with lies above/below your feet,
uphill/downhill lies, not to mention the complete lack of consistency of
sand on most courses. Fine, if you want to play out of someone else's
shoeprint, be my guest. I think there is something wrong with it. I will,
however, continue to follow USGA rules.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 19:29:35
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Larry Bud wrote:
> dsc wrote:
> > Larry Bud wrote:
> > > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
> >
> > Yes... if I can't find a useable rake
>
> Smooth it with your foot...
>

That's not what he asked... :)

>
> >
> > Yes... if it is dusk and there is noone behind me
>
> Not every course smooths them out for the next morning.
>
> >
> > Yes... if it's so wet you really can't rake it anyway.
>
> Total BS. You can fill in your giant ass footprint.

Again... not what he asked... :)

A
> Sorry to inconvenience you with 15 seconds of raking.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 19:03:54
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Larry Bud wrote:
> > > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
> >
> >
> > Poor baby. Get a grip. How much cash did it cost you?
>
> Can I safely assume you're one of these assholes?

No, I just complain about more important things. What is so hard about
hitting a
shot off a footprint for someone of your self-professed skills? Even I
can do that.
No big deal. Definitely not as hard as a shot right under a lip. Just
not that big a deal.
I'll take a footprint over a divot in heavy rough any day. But if I hit
into one, I won't
start a thread on it, even if it costs me a 20 buck nassau. Don't hit
it in the friggin
trap.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 19:03:55
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 20:37:07
From:
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Moral: stay out of the sand traps, and you want always be fussing about
their condition. With just a little effort you can miss them.

However in your weird part of the country - the tracks are probably
those of the Yeti, him don't rake.:--)

>m h o
>=A0v =83 e

>d r i v i n g =A0l e s s =A0l o w e r s =A0g a s =A0p r i c e s =A0

Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:26:58
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

dsc wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
> Yes... if I can't find a useable rake

Smooth it with your foot...

>
> Yes... if it is dusk and there is noone behind me

Not every course smooths them out for the next morning.

>
> Yes... if it's so wet you really can't rake it anyway.

Total BS. You can fill in your giant ass footprint.

Sorry to inconvenience you with 15 seconds of raking.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:55:49
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Howard Brazee wrote:
> If I had a choice between people filling in their fairway divots and
> raking their bunker footprints, the choice is easy - the fairways
> shouldn't be hazardous.
>
> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> roll into them.

I'm one of he ones that would prefer to hit from a normal sized empy
divot than a sand filled one or one with a grass toupee in it. Now
huge gouge of a ditch is another matter.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:53:27
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

sfb wrote:
> Those of us who play early before the grounds crew grooms the bunker wish to
> thank you for not raking bunkers in the evening you miserable fuck.

You're welcome @$$wipe...

Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:12:54
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 29 Aug 2006 03:00:15
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:12:54 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
<goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote:

>Raking traps is the best part of my game. I guess I've got to feel superior
>in somthing.

It's my 3 year old granddaughter's favorite part of golf.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 13:42:58
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:meb7f25davcf7bephnk9gs658lc00m616g@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:12:54 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
>>Raking traps is the best part of my game. I guess I've got to feel
>>superior
>>in somthing.
>
> It's my 3 year old granddaughter's favorite part of golf.

I'm not saying I'm a better raker than your granddaughter. The new equipment
and teaching techniques give the new a generation an advantage. She probably
rakes sand traps that you didn't even step in. This is a game with which I
am unfamiliar.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 16:18:45
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

John van der Pflum wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 12:06:54 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Bobby Knight wrote:
> >> On 28 Aug 2006 11:51:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >But who is going to determine if the steps in the bunker that were
> >> >taken were necessary or not? Do you penalize someone for not stepping
> >> >into the bunker at the nearest point to the ball? If so, what if that
> >> >point is too difficult to walk in at? Do the bunkers get raked at the
> >> >end of the day? End of the week? Ever? There are just too many
> >> >problems that would materialize because of this. If you want to make
> >> >it more penal, Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
> >> >with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.
> >>
> >> Good questions. As far as the "Nicklaus" rake goes though, I wonder
> >> how that would work at the amateur level, since I understood that the
> >> groundskeepers kept those striations parallel to the greens. If they
> >> are random, maybe the lies aren't always as difficult.
> >
> >I'm talking about the Nicklaus rake just for the pros. For everydays
> >use, what does it really matter? Like I mentioned, bunkers for
> >probably 90% of the players are already more difficult than the rough
> >around them.
>
> I dunno about one kind of rakes for the pros and one for us hackers.
> I *like* the idea that for the most part[1] I am playing the exact
> same game as the pros -- same course, same rules, same equipment.
>
> [1] Yes, I know that they get the latest prototype driver, irons, and
> balls but in general we all use the same junk.
> --

And the most important equipment... caddie...

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:34:47
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

> Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
> with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.

... do so we need to somehow condition the edges of all the water
hazards so everybody has the same chance if they barely trickle in??? :)

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:31:55
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

The_Professor wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
> I always rake the bunkers, but IMHO, it should not be allowed.

I'd go for this... the traps should be power raked as needed (after
rain, etc), otherwise... no hand rakes. You can smooth it out with your
foot and that's it.

Also, instead or shaving the greens and slicking them down to control
scores... must make them leave the flag in the hole... should cause a
few misses that would have been makes. :)

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:20:04
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:53:20
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Those of us who play early before the grounds crew grooms the bunker wish to
thank you for not raking bunkers in the evening you miserable fuck.

"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1156803604.557486.171290@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yes... if it is dusk and there is noone behind me
>

Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:22:47
From: Ben.
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Bobby Knight wrote:

> I rake traps that I haven't played all of the time, because someone
> else didn't.

You're just a higher quality human being than the rest of us mouth
breathers, BK.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:32:10
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 13:22:47 -0700, "Ben." <kombi45@yahoo.com > wrote:

>
>Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>> I rake traps that I haven't played all of the time, because someone
>> else didn't.
>
>You're just a higher quality human being than the rest of us mouth
>breathers, BK.

Finally, the respect from Ben that I deserve.
___,
\o

Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:06:54
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 11:51:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >But who is going to determine if the steps in the bunker that were
> >taken were necessary or not? Do you penalize someone for not stepping
> >into the bunker at the nearest point to the ball? If so, what if that
> >point is too difficult to walk in at? Do the bunkers get raked at the
> >end of the day? End of the week? Ever? There are just too many
> >problems that would materialize because of this. If you want to make
> >it more penal, Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
> >with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.
>
> Good questions. As far as the "Nicklaus" rake goes though, I wonder
> how that would work at the amateur level, since I understood that the
> groundskeepers kept those striations parallel to the greens. If they
> are random, maybe the lies aren't always as difficult.

I'm talking about the Nicklaus rake just for the pros. For everydays
use, what does it really matter? Like I mentioned, bunkers for
probably 90% of the players are already more difficult than the rough
around them.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 02:57:55
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 12:06:54 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>I'm talking about the Nicklaus rake just for the pros. For everydays
>use, what does it really matter? Like I mentioned, bunkers for
>probably 90% of the players are already more difficult than the rough
>around them.

Use Nicklaus rakes for tournaments. For other circumstances, the
whole foursome has the same bunker, raking shouldn't be necessary.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:33:41
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 12:06:54 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>
>Bobby Knight wrote:
>> On 28 Aug 2006 11:51:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >But who is going to determine if the steps in the bunker that were
>> >taken were necessary or not? Do you penalize someone for not stepping
>> >into the bunker at the nearest point to the ball? If so, what if that
>> >point is too difficult to walk in at? Do the bunkers get raked at the
>> >end of the day? End of the week? Ever? There are just too many
>> >problems that would materialize because of this. If you want to make
>> >it more penal, Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
>> >with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.
>>
>> Good questions. As far as the "Nicklaus" rake goes though, I wonder
>> how that would work at the amateur level, since I understood that the
>> groundskeepers kept those striations parallel to the greens. If they
>> are random, maybe the lies aren't always as difficult.
>
>I'm talking about the Nicklaus rake just for the pros. For everydays
>use, what does it really matter? Like I mentioned, bunkers for
>probably 90% of the players are already more difficult than the rough
>around them.

I dunno about one kind of rakes for the pros and one for us hackers.
I *like* the idea that for the most part[1] I am playing the exact
same game as the pros -- same course, same rules, same equipment.

[1] Yes, I know that they get the latest prototype driver, irons, and
balls but in general we all use the same junk.
--

jvdp
The only way to beat me is to make a hole in one
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:52:37
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

> > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
>
> Poor baby. Get a grip. How much cash did it cost you?

Can I safely assume you're one of these assholes?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:51:46
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

The_Professor wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > The_Professor wrote:
> > > Larry Bud wrote:
> > > > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > > > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > > > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > > > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > > > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > > > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > > > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
> > >
> > > I always rake the bunkers, but IMHO, it should not be allowed. They
> > > should be a hazard. As it is, on a good course, with real rough around
> > > the greens, they are too often a savior that catches bad shots and
> > > leaves you a shot at a par off a bad approach shot. There should be 4"
> > > deep footprints in bunkers. If they are not going to be a hazard, they
> > > shouldn't be there.
> >
> > It's certainly an argument, but in tournament conditions, what's
> > stopping the groups in front of you from taking 100 steps in the bunker
> > just for the hell of it?
> >
> > I agree that bunker should be penal, but for most amateurs, they
> > already are.
>
> It would be no different from spiking up the green, especially around
> the hole. IMHO it would lead to disqualification under existing rules.

But who is going to determine if the steps in the bunker that were
taken were necessary or not? Do you penalize someone for not stepping
into the bunker at the nearest point to the ball? If so, what if that
point is too difficult to walk in at? Do the bunkers get raked at the
end of the day? End of the week? Ever? There are just too many
problems that would materialize because of this. If you want to make
it more penal, Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.

Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:58:29
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

On 28 Aug 2006 11:51:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>But who is going to determine if the steps in the bunker that were
>taken were necessary or not? Do you penalize someone for not stepping
>into the bunker at the nearest point to the ball? If so, what if that
>point is too difficult to walk in at? Do the bunkers get raked at the
>end of the day? End of the week? Ever? There are just too many
>problems that would materialize because of this. If you want to make
>it more penal, Nicklaus already figured out how to do that this year
>with a modified rake, yet keep it as fair for each player as possible.

Good questions. As far as the "Nicklaus" rake goes though, I wonder
how that would work at the amateur level, since I understood that the
groundskeepers kept those striations parallel to the greens. If they
are random, maybe the lies aren't always as difficult.
___,
\o

Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:14:37
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:10:59
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Larry Bud wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > Larry Bud wrote:
> > > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
> >
> > I always rake the bunkers, but IMHO, it should not be allowed. They
> > should be a hazard. As it is, on a good course, with real rough around
> > the greens, they are too often a savior that catches bad shots and
> > leaves you a shot at a par off a bad approach shot. There should be 4"
> > deep footprints in bunkers. If they are not going to be a hazard, they
> > shouldn't be there.
>
> It's certainly an argument, but in tournament conditions, what's
> stopping the groups in front of you from taking 100 steps in the bunker
> just for the hell of it?
>
> I agree that bunker should be penal, but for most amateurs, they
> already are.

It would be no different from spiking up the green, especially around
the hole. IMHO it would lead to disqualification under existing rules.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 18:02:57
From: greenkeeper
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

In message <1156855359.082925.153970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >, Tex
<marktexkoenig@gmail.com > writes
>
>Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
>> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
>> >> roll into them.
>> >
>> >It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
>> >divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
>> >should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
>>
>> That's why they preach that. But if the grass won't take, the mowers
>> will shred them next time they pass. That's at least better than
>> leaving the divots sitting there on the fairway. Meanwhile, the
>> ball is more likely to roll over the divot hole.
>
>Kick in the sides of a bermuda divot to smooth it out some, fill with
>sand.
>
>> It's easy enough to ask your grounds keeper or course manager what
>> they prefer at your club - which will probably work for the same type
>> of grass in your area. But everybody "knows" the right way - just as
>> they "know" the right way to repair ball marks on the greens. Even
>> if they are wrong.
>
>One *wrong* way to fix a pitch mark on the green is to insert the tool
>and twist.
>Can't tell you how many times I've had to correct that one.
>Greenskeepers would probably prefer you didn't fix it if you are going
>to twist it.
>
>Tex
>
Hmm suggest you visit here.
http://www.gcsaa.org/resources/facts/ballmarks.asp

http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/65212740

--
alan

Date: 29 Aug 2006 05:42:39
From: Tex
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
>
> >> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> >> roll into them.
> >
> >It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
> >divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
> >should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
>
> That's why they preach that. But if the grass won't take, the mowers
> will shred them next time they pass. That's at least better than
> leaving the divots sitting there on the fairway. Meanwhile, the
> ball is more likely to roll over the divot hole.

Kick in the sides of a bermuda divot to smooth it out some, fill with
sand.

> It's easy enough to ask your grounds keeper or course manager what
> they prefer at your club - which will probably work for the same type
> of grass in your area. But everybody "knows" the right way - just as
> they "know" the right way to repair ball marks on the greens. Even
> if they are wrong.

One *wrong* way to fix a pitch mark on the green is to insert the tool
and twist.
Can't tell you how many times I've had to correct that one.
Greenskeepers would probably prefer you didn't fix it if you are going
to twist it.

Tex

Date: 29 Aug 2006 05:13:24
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2006 05:36:46 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> >which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> >plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> >HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> >that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> >downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> >green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
>
> They want me to rake their goddam traps, let them pay me. Same thing
> with repairing ball marks. NOT MY JOB.

Really no surprise that you wouldn't rake traps or repair ball marks.
But then again, I doubt the courses I play at would let you through the
front gate.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 05:10:38
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

pete z wrote:
> Larry Bud wrote:
> > > > I mean, SOMEBODY isn't raking them... Yesterday I hit into a bunker,
> > > > which usually has pretty soft, deep sand. Yesterday it was raining, so
> > > > plugged lies were a possibility. Unfortunatley, the ball went into a
> > > > HUGE footprint. I mean, this thing was 4" deep. It was bad enough
> > > > that I was in the front of the bunker (or is it the back?), on a
> > > > downhill lie. Somehow I hacked it out and it just trickled through the
> > > > green, but I did get up/down from there for bogey.
> > >
> > >
> > > Poor baby. Get a grip. How much cash did it cost you?
> >
> > Can I safely assume you're one of these assholes?
>
> No, I just complain about more important things.

No, I think I've touched a nerve.

> What is so hard about
> hitting a shot off a footprint for someone of your self-professed skills?

Because the ball is 4" below the surface of the sand. Even *I*, with my
great skills, have trouble with that. But of course, as you know,
it's more than that. It's the "fuck you" attitude, or the complete
ignorance of the person who left that footprint in the first place.

Date: 29 Aug 2006 21:55:18
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

Date: 29 Aug 2006 12:45:54
From: Tex
Subject: Re: Anybody here gonna fess up to not raking traps?

greenkeeper wrote:
> In message <1156855359.082925.153970@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, Tex
> <marktexkoenig@gmail.com> writes
> >
> >Howard Brazee wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:58:39 -0700, "AKA Gray Asphalt"
> >> <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> But some people preach that we shouldn't replace divots, and balls
> >> >> roll into them.
> >> >
> >> >It depends on the type of grass, no? It's kind of hard to get a bermuda
> >> >divot to find its way back into the ground but beruda has runners so they
> >> >should heal more quickly than bent, or fescue ... Is this right?
> >>
> >> That's why they preach that. But if the grass won't take, the mowers
> >> will shred them next time they pass. That's at least better than
> >> leaving the divots sitting there on the fairway. Meanwhile, the
> >> ball is more likely to roll over the divot hole.
> >
> >Kick in the sides of a bermuda divot to smooth it out some, fill with
> >sand.
> >
> >> It's easy enough to ask your grounds keeper or course manager what
> >> they prefer at your club - which will probably work for the same type
> >> of grass in your area. But everybody "knows" the right way - just as
> >> they "know" the right way to repair ball marks on the greens. Even
> >> if they are wrong.
> >
> >One *wrong* way to fix a pitch mark on the green is to insert the tool
> >and twist.
> >Can't tell you how many times I've had to correct that one.
> >Greenskeepers would probably prefer you didn't fix it if you are going
> >to twist it.
> >
> >Tex
> >
> Hmm suggest you visit here.
> http://www.gcsaa.org/resources/facts/ballmarks.asp

Sorry, for the confusion, I should have said don't twist it 272.4
degrees.

Tex