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Date: 25 Sep 2006 13:05:40
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Adjusting the hole
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I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
the cup - possibly adjusting something.
I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
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Date: 25 Sep 2006 08:36:37
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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>I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
> the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
> the cup - possibly adjusting something.
>
> I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
> often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
> using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
>
Makes me cringe every time I see someone do it, but anyone who has ever had
back pain can understand why. I don't recall the incident, but I am pretty
sure you are correct -- you can't fix it. One common problem if you play
early is that the guy cutting the cups often leaves a raised edge around the
cup where he pulled the cutter out. It's usually not much, but if you putt
to "die it in the hole", your ball will just bounce off that little edge.
Most of us playing casual just run over the rim with a putter if nobody else
has been at it, which removes any loose sand and any raised rim, but a rules
nazi in a group I was playing with once said you couldn't do it until after
putting out. I recall looking it up and confirming.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
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Date: 26 Sep 2006 03:25:51
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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warren montgomery wrote:
>>I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
>>the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
>>the cup - possibly adjusting something.
>>
>>I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
>>often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
>>using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
>>
>
> Makes me cringe every time I see someone do it, but anyone who has ever had
> back pain can understand why. I don't recall the incident, but I am pretty
> sure you are correct -- you can't fix it. One common problem if you play
> early is that the guy cutting the cups often leaves a raised edge around the
> cup where he pulled the cutter out. It's usually not much, but if you putt
> to "die it in the hole", your ball will just bounce off that little edge.
> Most of us playing casual just run over the rim with a putter if nobody else
> has been at it, which removes any loose sand and any raised rim, but a rules
> nazi in a group I was playing with once said you couldn't do it until after
> putting out. I recall looking it up and confirming.
Prior to putting out the hole constitutes part of the 'line of putt' and
is sacrosanct and cannot be touched unless removing loose impediments or
repairing a ball mark. (Rule 16-1a). (Soil and sand on the green are not
'loose impediments'). If the hole is out of shape and/or materially
damaged then in exceptional circumstances it can be repaired by a
Committeeman (Decisions 16-1a/5 and 6), otherwise the player must play
without repairing the hole.
Eric Axley was almost certainly removing a loose impediment...otherwise
he breached the rule and should have been penalised.
cheers
david
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Date: 25 Sep 2006 12:42:06
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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david s-a wrote:
> warren montgomery wrote:
>
>>> I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
>>> the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
>>> the cup - possibly adjusting something.
>>>
>>> I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
>>> often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
>>> using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
>>>
>>
>> Makes me cringe every time I see someone do it, but anyone who has
>> ever had back pain can understand why. I don't recall the incident,
>> but I am pretty sure you are correct -- you can't fix it. One common
>> problem if you play early is that the guy cutting the cups often
>> leaves a raised edge around the cup where he pulled the cutter out.
>> It's usually not much, but if you putt to "die it in the hole", your
>> ball will just bounce off that little edge. Most of us playing casual
>> just run over the rim with a putter if nobody else has been at it,
>> which removes any loose sand and any raised rim, but a rules nazi in a
>> group I was playing with once said you couldn't do it until after
>> putting out. I recall looking it up and confirming.
>
>
> Prior to putting out the hole constitutes part of the 'line of putt' and
> is sacrosanct and cannot be touched unless removing loose impediments or
> repairing a ball mark. (Rule 16-1a). (Soil and sand on the green are not
> 'loose impediments').
I was just reading the rules some more, and soil and sand on the green
can be removed; according to the definitions "Sand and loose soil are
loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere."
Further, in changing the line of play,
"However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke
and the stroke is made,
• on the teeing ground in creating or eliminating irregularities of
surface (Rule 11-1), or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
damage .(Rule 16-1)."
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
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Date: 26 Sep 2006 08:31:46
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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Mike Dalecki wrote:
> david s-a wrote:
>
>> warren montgomery wrote:
>>
>>>> I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
>>>> the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
>>>> the cup - possibly adjusting something.
>>>>
>>>> I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
>>>> often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
>>>> using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Makes me cringe every time I see someone do it, but anyone who has
>>> ever had back pain can understand why. I don't recall the incident,
>>> but I am pretty sure you are correct -- you can't fix it. One common
>>> problem if you play early is that the guy cutting the cups often
>>> leaves a raised edge around the cup where he pulled the cutter out.
>>> It's usually not much, but if you putt to "die it in the hole", your
>>> ball will just bounce off that little edge. Most of us playing casual
>>> just run over the rim with a putter if nobody else has been at it,
>>> which removes any loose sand and any raised rim, but a rules nazi in
>>> a group I was playing with once said you couldn't do it until after
>>> putting out. I recall looking it up and confirming.
>>
>>
>>
>> Prior to putting out the hole constitutes part of the 'line of putt'
>> and is sacrosanct and cannot be touched unless removing loose
>> impediments or repairing a ball mark. (Rule 16-1a). (Soil and sand on
>> the green are not 'loose impediments').
>
>
> I was just reading the rules some more, and soil and sand on the green
> can be removed; according to the definitions "Sand and loose soil are
> loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere."
>
> Further, in changing the line of play,
>
> "However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
> • in fairly taking his stance,
> • in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke
> and the stroke is made,
> • on the teeing ground in creating or eliminating irregularities of
> surface (Rule 11-1), or
> • on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
> damage .(Rule 16-1)."
>
> Mike
>
Re 'sand and soil'....sheesh...I should know better....getting too old,
must be a brain fart....I had it the wrong way round....sorry about that!
I remember quite clearly, early on in her career, when Karrie Webb burst
into tears for copping a penalty when she was putting from the fringe.
She cleared sand from her 'line' on the green only a couple of feet
away, which was Ok... but then went on to clear vitually the same sand
which was immediately in front of her ball, but on the fringe!
Thanks for pointing this out!
cheers
david
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Date: 25 Sep 2006 12:38:38
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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david s-a wrote:
> warren montgomery wrote:
>
>>> I watched a few holes at the end of the Valero Texas Open, and near
>>> the end, winner Eric Axley was getting ready to putt, but reached into
>>> the cup - possibly adjusting something.
>>>
>>> I thought we had to wait until after we holed out to do that. (I
>>> often see damage done by either people tending incorrectly - or worse,
>>> using a putter to retrieve one's ball.)
>>>
>>
>> Makes me cringe every time I see someone do it, but anyone who has
>> ever had back pain can understand why. I don't recall the incident,
>> but I am pretty sure you are correct -- you can't fix it. One common
>> problem if you play early is that the guy cutting the cups often
>> leaves a raised edge around the cup where he pulled the cutter out.
>> It's usually not much, but if you putt to "die it in the hole", your
>> ball will just bounce off that little edge. Most of us playing casual
>> just run over the rim with a putter if nobody else has been at it,
>> which removes any loose sand and any raised rim, but a rules nazi in a
>> group I was playing with once said you couldn't do it until after
>> putting out. I recall looking it up and confirming.
>
>
> Prior to putting out the hole constitutes part of the 'line of putt' and
> is sacrosanct and cannot be touched unless removing loose impediments or
> repairing a ball mark. (Rule 16-1a). (Soil and sand on the green are not
> 'loose impediments').
Actually, David, while they may not be defined as loose impediments, if
you have sand deposited on your line by an ensuing shot, you're entitled
to return the line to what you had earlier.
Decision 13-2/8.5: Player’s Lie Affected by Sand from Partner’s,
Opponent’s or Fellow-Competitor’s Stroke from Bunker
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
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Date: 26 Sep 2006 01:28:52
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Adjusting the hole
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On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:38:38 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdor.com >
wrote:
>Actually, David, while they may not be defined as loose impediments, if
>you have sand deposited on your line by an ensuing shot, you're entitled
>to return the line to what you had earlier.
>
>Decision 13-2/8.5: Player’s Lie Affected by Sand from Partner’s,
>Opponent’s or Fellow-Competitor’s Stroke from Bunker
Same thing about spike marks made after your ball arrived at its
position. I imagine you could repair any damage done after your ball
got there.
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