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Date: 22 Sep 2006 10:16:55
From: Frankenshank
Subject: clubhead inside the hands
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In every swing sequence I've seen, pros have the clubhead slightly
OUTSIDE the hands on the backswing (when hands are at right hip level,
clubshaft parallel to ground and target line) when looking from down
the line.
Im curious about the DOWNSWING at this same point, I think Jim MClean
called it the "delivery line" or something close. Anyhoo... when the
club arrives at this position when it is parallel to the ground, if the
clubhead is slightly INSIDE the hands (which would make the butt of the
grip point more AT the target line instead of exactly parallel) does
this "predestinate" an inside clubhead path to the ball?
And, would the inverse of this position (butt of grip points more LEFT
of target line) guarantee
an "out to in" swing path?
When my pro had me work on pre-impact position, the feeling I got was
that the clubhead was was now "inside" my hands and the shaft was
pointing more at the target than before. Before, of course, my path was
"out to in"
Any thoughts?
FrankenShank
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 20:11:28
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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These are things that will help me divide my practice time from my
playing rounds. Thank you, Seth. I do not want to work on my swing on
the golf course....I want to use it. The only time that I need to
think about it is when I start to push each tee shot to the right (my
bad shot tendancy), then I need to use my brain to correct this fault.
Usually my thought is to close the clubface through the ball.
Hey, are you the creator of Family Guy/American Dad, or do u just use
him as a nick ?
S McFarlane wrote:
> Absolutely, except for me the goal is to not even concentrate on feel. My
> basic scheme for improvement is to only do mechanics stuff on the range
> (where concentrating on feel is a much better tool for grooving the swing
> than excessively technical mechanical thoughts), and only work on one small
> aspect of mechanics at any given time. When I'm in swing mechanics mode I
> don't give a hoot where the ball goes so long as I'm doing the mechanics
> correctly, assuming there's adequate feedback available.
>
> On the other hand, when I'm playing, I try to ignore any sort of swing
> steering at all (even when it is only feel-oriented). I try to see the shot
> beforehand and then clear my mind and just let my body make it happen. When
> I do this successfully, it almost always feels good. The shot may not be
> perfect, but it's almost never terrible. At this stage, my straightest
> route to lower scores is eliminating those terrible shots.
>
> I'm sure you've heard this spiel before. It's very common to hear a pro
> describing this sort of mental process. I've found it is more difficult to
> do than the correcting of faulty mechanics ever was. It is very difficult
> on the course to just completely trust your subconcious mind to do what it
> does best. The conscious mind always thinks it needs to help, and it always
> seems to get in the way. The more important the shot, the more difficult to
> stay out of your own way.
>
> Scott
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 13:28:08
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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On 23 Sep 2006 20:11:28 -0700, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>These are things that will help me divide my practice time from my
>playing rounds. Thank you, Seth. I do not want to work on my swing on
>the golf course....I want to use it.
As Winter comes, I will be playing rounds with the intent of
practicing recovery and other shots that I can't practice on the
range. Trouble is, the real tough native won't be available.
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 04:21:01
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1159067488.575167.284800@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> These are things that will help me divide my practice time from my
> playing rounds. Thank you, Seth. I do not want to work on my swing on
> the golf course....I want to use it. The only time that I need to
> think about it is when I start to push each tee shot to the right (my
> bad shot tendancy), then I need to use my brain to correct this fault.
> Usually my thought is to close the clubface through the ball.
Yep, when it all breaks down on the course you can't just keep running on
auto pilot. My biggest problem at the moment is a persistent pull with the
irons. Almost every approach is hit solidly with very little if any
sidespin (and then it's a slight draw, not the more typical pull-fade).
More times than not I'm pin high, but left of the green. I can't help but
try to tinker around with the swing to bring it back to the target. I've
never really been able to improve things this way on the course (usually I
make it worse), but I can't leave it alone, either.
>
> Hey, are you the creator of Family Guy/American Dad, or do u just use
> him as a nick ?
>
Neither. My first name is Scott :-) .
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 17:32:18
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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This sounds very good. During my downswing, if i try to do too much I
will have a hard time making solid contact with the golf ball. Lately
during my downswing I have been concentrating only on a feeling. This
is the Rope Handle Technique which I have been working on, and it works
very well. The idea is to use the contact between my left arm and body
to move the golf club from the end of my backswing, and only the
pressure that exists here. This gives me the feeling of pulling on a
rope, with the rope consisting of my left shoulder, left arm, and
entire golf club. This makes this whole structure feel very solid from
the top of the backswing, and it just remains tight and intact through
the ball, then swings around to finish.
I do not look for mechanical thoughts, but I do look for proper
mechanics. I want mechanics to produce a sound golf swing, then I want
the mechanics to develop into feel. This way I can feel the proper
mechanics without having to produce any awkward mechanical motions.
Basic idea: let mechanics produce, and let feel reproduce.
> I kinda agree with this. I don't think mechanical type thoughts work well
> in particular on the downswing. Everything is just happening way too fast
> for that sort of thing. I have found basic feel-type thoughts to help
> produce good shots, but not nearly as well as completely forgetting all of
> that and letting your subconcious mind take control.
>
> The best 'swing thought' I've ever come up with is making sure I get a very
> good look at the grass directly underneath the ball (or the divot, or the
> tip of the tee, etc.) before momentum forces my eyes towards the target.
> The real goal of this is fooling my conscious mind to concentrate on
> something other than the phyiscal movement that is taking place, but also
> addresses a big problem I have with looking up to see where the ball is
> going.
>
>
> When I think about the relationship to the ball during my swing,
> > especially during this part of this swing, I want my hands ahead of the
> > clubhead (of course they should be ahead of the ball during impact;
> > Jack Nicklaus said that having the hands ahead of the ball was
> > fundamental to good ball striking). I want the clubhead to be lagging
> > behind my hands, and I want my hands to be lagging behind my arms.
> > Then, ideally, I want my arms to be moved by my pivot. This causes my
> > arms and hands to BE MOVED by my body rotation and weight displacement
> > (not weight shift). My pivot should displace my weight, I do not want
> > to consciously 'shift' my weight from one side to another.
> >
> > Also, I want the feeling that my body rotation (pivot) is causing the
> > clubface to open to the ball during the backswing (wrists are turned,
> > instead of turning the wrists), then close to the ball during the
> > downswing (wrists are rolling, instead of being rolled). With the
> > understanding that the clubface will ONLY be square to my target line
> > during the brief point of separation during the swing (because impact
> > and separation are different), and during this split second of ball
> > separation from the clubface, it is the only moment that my clubface is
> > perpinducular to my target line.
> >
>
> These are all good general thoughts to have, since they are more about the
> feel of the downswing than the mechanics of it.
>
> Scott
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 01:54:52
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1159057938.366359.161960@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> I do not look for mechanical thoughts, but I do look for proper
> mechanics. I want mechanics to produce a sound golf swing, then I want
> the mechanics to develop into feel. This way I can feel the proper
> mechanics without having to produce any awkward mechanical motions.
>
> Basic idea: let mechanics produce, and let feel reproduce.
>
Absolutely, except for me the goal is to not even concentrate on feel. My
basic scheme for improvement is to only do mechanics stuff on the range
(where concentrating on feel is a much better tool for grooving the swing
than excessively technical mechanical thoughts), and only work on one small
aspect of mechanics at any given time. When I'm in swing mechanics mode I
don't give a hoot where the ball goes so long as I'm doing the mechanics
correctly, assuming there's adequate feedback available.
On the other hand, when I'm playing, I try to ignore any sort of swing
steering at all (even when it is only feel-oriented). I try to see the shot
beforehand and then clear my mind and just let my body make it happen. When
I do this successfully, it almost always feels good. The shot may not be
perfect, but it's almost never terrible. At this stage, my straightest
route to lower scores is eliminating those terrible shots.
I'm sure you've heard this spiel before. It's very common to hear a pro
describing this sort of mental process. I've found it is more difficult to
do than the correcting of faulty mechanics ever was. It is very difficult
on the course to just completely trust your subconcious mind to do what it
does best. The conscious mind always thinks it needs to help, and it always
seems to get in the way. The more important the shot, the more difficult to
stay out of your own way.
Scott
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 12:09:17
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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I know everybody is still trying to explain what they think the
original poster was trying to say when he referred to the 'hands
inside/outside the ball' in the delivery position. I think that I have
a idea of what was meant, but I doubt it is a usefull thing to think
about (maybe just for me....because there are many things that can help
many people. I think creativity, and thinking absatractly are very
important while learning how to swing a golf club. As a side note: I
encourage EVERYBODY to post their ideas, and thoughts about their
swings here on RSG without any hesitation; because any idea, thought,
image, feeling can potentially turn any weekend hacker/amateur like me
into a straight shooting scratch golfer....but this is very unlikely)
When I think about the relationship to the ball during my swing,
especially during this part of this swing, I want my hands ahead of the
clubhead (of course they should be ahead of the ball during impact;
Jack Nicklaus said that having the hands ahead of the ball was
fundamental to good ball striking). I want the clubhead to be lagging
behind my hands, and I want my hands to be lagging behind my arms.
Then, ideally, I want my arms to be moved by my pivot. This causes my
arms and hands to BE MOVED by my body rotation and weight displacement
(not weight shift). My pivot should displace my weight, I do not want
to consciously 'shift' my weight from one side to another.
Also, I want the feeling that my body rotation (pivot) is causing the
clubface to open to the ball during the backswing (wrists are turned,
instead of turning the wrists), then close to the ball during the
downswing (wrists are rolling, instead of being rolled). With the
understanding that the clubface will ONLY be square to my target line
during the brief point of separation during the swing (because impact
and separation are different), and during this split second of ball
separation from the clubface, it is the only moment that my clubface is
perpinducular to my target line.
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 22:16:33
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1159038557.086717.298110@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>I know everybody is still trying to explain what they think the
> original poster was trying to say when he referred to the 'hands
> inside/outside the ball' in the delivery position. I think that I have
> a idea of what was meant, but I doubt it is a usefull thing to think
> about (maybe just for me....because there are many things that can help
> many people.
I kinda agree with this. I don't think mechanical type thoughts work well
in particular on the downswing. Everything is just happening way too fast
for that sort of thing. I have found basic feel-type thoughts to help
produce good shots, but not nearly as well as completely forgetting all of
that and letting your subconcious mind take control.
The best 'swing thought' I've ever come up with is making sure I get a very
good look at the grass directly underneath the ball (or the divot, or the
tip of the tee, etc.) before momentum forces my eyes towards the target.
The real goal of this is fooling my conscious mind to concentrate on
something other than the phyiscal movement that is taking place, but also
addresses a big problem I have with looking up to see where the ball is
going.
When I think about the relationship to the ball during my swing,
> especially during this part of this swing, I want my hands ahead of the
> clubhead (of course they should be ahead of the ball during impact;
> Jack Nicklaus said that having the hands ahead of the ball was
> fundamental to good ball striking). I want the clubhead to be lagging
> behind my hands, and I want my hands to be lagging behind my arms.
> Then, ideally, I want my arms to be moved by my pivot. This causes my
> arms and hands to BE MOVED by my body rotation and weight displacement
> (not weight shift). My pivot should displace my weight, I do not want
> to consciously 'shift' my weight from one side to another.
>
> Also, I want the feeling that my body rotation (pivot) is causing the
> clubface to open to the ball during the backswing (wrists are turned,
> instead of turning the wrists), then close to the ball during the
> downswing (wrists are rolling, instead of being rolled). With the
> understanding that the clubface will ONLY be square to my target line
> during the brief point of separation during the swing (because impact
> and separation are different), and during this split second of ball
> separation from the clubface, it is the only moment that my clubface is
> perpinducular to my target line.
>
These are all good general thoughts to have, since they are more about the
feel of the downswing than the mechanics of it.
Scott
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 07:04:50
From: dsc
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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S McFarlane wrote:
> "Frankenshank" <groovemeister747@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1158945415.532490.10860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > In every swing sequence I've seen, pros have the clubhead slightly
> > OUTSIDE the hands on the backswing (when hands are at right hip level,
> > clubshaft parallel to ground and target line) when looking from down
> > the line.
> >
> > Im curious about the DOWNSWING at this same point, I think Jim MClean
> > called it the "delivery line" or something close. Anyhoo... when the
> > club arrives at this position when it is parallel to the ground, if the
> > clubhead is slightly INSIDE the hands (which would make the butt of the
> > grip point more AT the target line instead of exactly parallel) does
> > this "predestinate" an inside clubhead path to the ball?
> > And, would the inverse of this position (butt of grip points more LEFT
> > of target line) guarantee
> > an "out to in" swing path?
> >
> > When my pro had me work on pre-impact position, the feeling I got was
> > that the clubhead was was now "inside" my hands and the shaft was
> > pointing more at the target than before. Before, of course, my path was
> > "out to in"
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
>
> It's tough to tell from swing sequences of the pros, because they all seem
> to be in the process of releasing the club when it is parallel to the
> ground. Not a single sequence of the ten I looked at had a shot of the club
> parallel to the ground on the downswing. The frame before parallel, the
> shaft is still upright with the clubhead _well_ inside the hands, which are
> already below the hips. Next frame is usually very close to impact.
>
> From those sequences, it's very difficult to say where the club is in
> relation to the hands (inside- outside wise), because at this point in the
> swing their relative positions are changing very quickly. But I think the
> moment just before parallel is close enough. Looking at Els' swing, with
> about a 20 - 30* upright shaft angle relative to the target line, the hands
> are already almost below his nose while the clubhead is no closer to the
> target line than his knees. From this position, it appears very likely that
> the clubhead will still be inside the hands at parallel.
>
> Scott
I was talking only about the backswing in the previous post...
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 03:11:57
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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"Frankenshank" <groovemeister747@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1158945415.532490.10860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> In every swing sequence I've seen, pros have the clubhead slightly
> OUTSIDE the hands on the backswing (when hands are at right hip level,
> clubshaft parallel to ground and target line) when looking from down
> the line.
>
> Im curious about the DOWNSWING at this same point, I think Jim MClean
> called it the "delivery line" or something close. Anyhoo... when the
> club arrives at this position when it is parallel to the ground, if the
> clubhead is slightly INSIDE the hands (which would make the butt of the
> grip point more AT the target line instead of exactly parallel) does
> this "predestinate" an inside clubhead path to the ball?
> And, would the inverse of this position (butt of grip points more LEFT
> of target line) guarantee
> an "out to in" swing path?
>
> When my pro had me work on pre-impact position, the feeling I got was
> that the clubhead was was now "inside" my hands and the shaft was
> pointing more at the target than before. Before, of course, my path was
> "out to in"
>
> Any thoughts?
>
It's tough to tell from swing sequences of the pros, because they all seem
to be in the process of releasing the club when it is parallel to the
ground. Not a single sequence of the ten I looked at had a shot of the club
parallel to the ground on the downswing. The frame before parallel, the
shaft is still upright with the clubhead _well_ inside the hands, which are
already below the hips. Next frame is usually very close to impact.
From those sequences, it's very difficult to say where the club is in
relation to the hands (inside- outside wise), because at this point in the
swing their relative positions are changing very quickly. But I think the
moment just before parallel is close enough. Looking at Els' swing, with
about a 20 - 30* upright shaft angle relative to the target line, the hands
are already almost below his nose while the clubhead is no closer to the
target line than his knees. From this position, it appears very likely that
the clubhead will still be inside the hands at parallel.
Scott
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 12:50:59
From: dsc
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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> I am unsure what you mean by clubhead outside/inside the hands, but I
> am pretty sure that "In a sound golf swing the clubhead never passes
> the hands." When the clubhead passes the hands we have the hackers:
> clubhead throwaway
About 1/2 way back the club is supposed to be more or less on the toe
line (assuming the toe line is parallel to the target line). He is
talking about the club head being slightly to the ball side of the toe
line.
I've heard that on the line to slightly outside (ball side of) the line
is okay. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say inside the line is
okay?
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 10:39:48
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
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This is a critical part of the golf swing. When I work on this part of
my swing I want my right elbow in front of my right hip. I want the
club parallel to the plane line. I think that your right forearm
should be guiding the clubshaft on plane, like throwing a javelin. I
also want my wrists to be cocked until here, and I try to keep my arms
and club in the same relative position that they were in at the top of
my backswing. If I make a good pivot then my wrists will uncock, and
roll automatically through impace, follow through and finish as an
effect of centripetal force.
I am unsure what you mean by clubhead outside/inside the hands, but I
am pretty sure that "In a sound golf swing the clubhead never passes
the hands." When the clubhead passes the hands we have the hackers:
clubhead throwaway
Frankenshank wrote:
> In every swing sequence I've seen, pros have the clubhead slightly
> OUTSIDE the hands on the backswing (when hands are at right hip level,
> clubshaft parallel to ground and target line) when looking from down
> the line.
>
> Im curious about the DOWNSWING at this same point, I think Jim MClean
> called it the "delivery line" or something close. Anyhoo... when the
> club arrives at this position when it is parallel to the ground, if the
> clubhead is slightly INSIDE the hands (which would make the butt of the
> grip point more AT the target line instead of exactly parallel) does
> this "predestinate" an inside clubhead path to the ball?
> And, would the inverse of this position (butt of grip points more LEFT
> of target line) guarantee
> an "out to in" swing path?
>
> When my pro had me work on pre-impact position, the feeling I got was
> that the clubhead was was now "inside" my hands and the shaft was
> pointing more at the target than before. Before, of course, my path was
> "out to in"
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> FrankenShank
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 10:51:49
From:
Subject: Re: clubhead inside the hands
|
On 22 Sep 2006 10:39:48 -0700, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>This is a critical part of the golf swing. When I work on this part of
>my swing I want my right elbow in front of my right hip. I want the
>club parallel to the plane line. I think that your right forearm
>should be guiding the clubshaft on plane, like throwing a javelin. I
>also want my wrists to be cocked until here, and I try to keep my arms
>and club in the same relative position that they were in at the top of
>my backswing. If I make a good pivot then my wrists will uncock, and
>roll automatically through impace, follow through and finish as an
>effect of centripetal force.
>
>I am unsure what you mean by clubhead outside/inside the hands, but I
>am pretty sure that "In a sound golf swing the clubhead never passes
>the hands." When the clubhead passes the hands we have the hackers:
>clubhead throwaway
I think what he meant was ......... standing to the players right -
looking straight down target line player is addressing - with
backswing at the hips - with shaft paralell to the ground and target
line - the clubhead is either to the right of the hands (outside), in
line with the hands, or to the left of the hands (inside).
Everyone's got their own way of doing it ......... for me, I try to
keep the clubhead outside of my hands to promote a move towards a cut
- and inside to promote a move towards a draw. With all other things
being equal, my path up influences my path down.
k
For those who fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
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