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Date: 19 Jan 2007 17:46:13
From: water
Subject: club loft drift
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I'm interested in learning a little more about the specifics of "club drift"
evolution over the years(The fact that manufacturs have "drifted" loft
angles
towards the verticle over the years). Trying to do a little research here.
In other words, its been said that a 30 year-old 7 iron has the same loft
as a present day 8 iron, or something like that.
This whole concept birthed the Gap Wedge to fill in the drift gap between a
SW and PW, I have been told.
At any rate, if anyone could offer a little more data or perhaps a webpage
with a some more specifics(average loft degrees change, which clubs have
been most affected by this, etc) it would be appreciated.
TIA
-water
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:04:39
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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On Jan 22, 11:20 am, "Simon" <hancock_si...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Birdie Bill wrote:
> > In my case, my graphite 8 iron (Wilson Fat Shaft Deep Red) has the
> > same loft as my steel 8 iron (Tommy Armour 845), but is a little
> > longer. I hit the graphite club about a club longer because I can
> > get faster swing speed with it. Part of that is from the reduced
> > weight, and part from the longer length.
>That's interesting Bill. Did you ever measure your swing swing against
> a steel shafted club of the same length?
No I haven't, but I suppose I could. I have access to equipment
to do that. I'll let you know if I get ambitious.
> > One reason I think the higher lofted graphite club is
> > more accurate is that due to the higher ball flight, it holds
> > the green better.
>As I normally play in windy conditions, I'd probably be better off with
> shorter, less lofted clubs :-)
Links golf is a whole different game.
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 09:20:22
From: Simon
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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Birdie Bill wrote:
> In my case, my graphite 8 iron (Wilson Fat Shaft Deep Red) has the
> same loft as my steel 8 iron (Tommy Armour 845), but is a little
> longer. I hit the graphite club about a club longer because I can
> get faster swing speed with it. Part of that is from the reduced
> weight, and part from the longer length.
That's interesting Bill. Did you ever measure your swing swing against
a steel shafted club of the same length?
>
> I feel that I am more accurate with my graphite 8I than with
> the steel 7I, but I haven't run strict scientific tests. I still
> have my 845s, and I do one-on-one comparisons from
> time to time and haven't yet felt compelled to switch
> back to steel (although I'm thinking about doing it for
> other reasons - feel and touch while chipping).
>
> One reason I think the higher lofted graphite club is
> more accurate is that due to the higher ball flight, it holds
> the green better.
>
As I normally play in windy conditions, I'd probably be better off with
shorter, less lofted clubs :-)
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 09:05:18
From: Simon
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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Joe wrote:
> >
> As I recall Pelz did this work and published it in his first book.
>
> As far as length is concerned, who cares. As an individual you can
> generate x amount of club head speed for a given club of length /weight.
> Hit the ball with the center of percussion and you will maximize the
> distance, the difference between clubs than comes down to feel.
>
> Joe
You are right to mention the feel, although it's hard to determine
where that feel comes from. Is it the total weight, the swingweight or
the MoI? I used to work on aircraft sticks for simulation systems. For
accuarate targeting, some pilots used to like a really light feel to
the stick, others needed to have a heavier feel or they would
overshoot. We called them 'low gain' and 'high gain' pilots. The 'high
gain' pilots needed a low gain on the stick control control system and
vice versa. I guess it's the same with golf clubs.
I can see the theory that you should be able to swing a lighter club
faster than a heavier club, but I think there's a point where that
becomes negligible and you are limited by your basic arm speed. Perhaps
that depends on your basic strength or the power generated in your
swing. I certainly notice the effort in trying to swing my Momentus
swing trainer compared to swinging my normal steel shafted club, but I
don't notice any difference between a graphite shafted iron and a steel
shafted one - it seems that, below a certain weight, the weight of the
club doesn't register.
Now I think about it a bit more, I've always been more comfortable with
heavier bats, rackets, etc. in all sports, although I'm not that
strong. In fact I always play with a really heavy putter - I lose all
feel with a lighter one.
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 13:02:06
From: Joe
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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Simon wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>
>>As I recall Pelz did this work and published it in his first book.
>
>
>>As far as length is concerned, who cares. As an individual you can
>>generate x amount of club head speed for a given club of length /weight.
>> Hit the ball with the center of percussion and you will maximize the
>>distance, the difference between clubs than comes down to feel.
>>
>>Joe
>
>
> You are right to mention the feel, although it's hard to determine
> where that feel comes from. Is it the total weight, the swingweight or
> the MoI? I used to work on aircraft sticks for simulation systems. For
> accuarate targeting, some pilots used to like a really light feel to
> the stick, others needed to have a heavier feel or they would
> overshoot. We called them 'low gain' and 'high gain' pilots. The 'high
> gain' pilots needed a low gain on the stick control control system and
> vice versa. I guess it's the same with golf clubs.
>
> I can see the theory that you should be able to swing a lighter club
> faster than a heavier club, but I think there's a point where that
> becomes negligible and you are limited by your basic arm speed. Perhaps
> that depends on your basic strength or the power generated in your
> swing. I certainly notice the effort in trying to swing my Momentus
> swing trainer compared to swinging my normal steel shafted club, but I
> don't notice any difference between a graphite shafted iron and a steel
> shafted one - it seems that, below a certain weight, the weight of the
> club doesn't register.
I think that you are right, but it seems to me personally that there is
sort of a band within the limits of which I am comfortable with the club
and swing speed is pretty consistent. I've owned a set of fairly heavy
sticks and never noticed the weight particularly and I've tried a few of
the ultra light clubs popular with Asian ladies at the pro shop and
didn't really notice a consequential speed difference. In fact,
probably because of the light flexible shaft, head feel was magnified.
> Now I think about it a bit more, I've always been more comfortable with
> heavier bats, rackets, etc. in all sports, although I'm not that
> strong. In fact I always play with a really heavy putter - I lose all
> feel with a lighter one.
I prefer heavier but I suspect that I really mean slightly "head heavy"
so that I intuitively know where the head is during the swing. Maybe
that's why I never really liked the feel of a fly rod and fly fishing.
Joe
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 06:01:25
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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On Jan 22, 7:30 am, "Simon" <hancock_si...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> D.L. wrote:
> > There is a little more to it than just trying to sell a longer hitting 7-iron.
> > Assume both sets are built with same shafts and 38-inch 5-irons.
> > With the old weak lofted set, you were hitting a 37.5 inch 35-degree
> > loft 6-iron. With the new stronger loft set, you hitting a 37 inch
> > 35-degree loft 7-iron. I feel the shorter 35-degree club will be
> > more accurate from 150 yards. Yes, you can build the older heads
> > with shorter shafts, but the lighter head takes a bunch of lead powder
> > to get the swingweight up.
> > D.L.Has anyone ever experimented to see if a shorter, less lofted club is
> more or less accurate than a longer higher lofted club for the same
> distance? I have a feeling that every player is going to have the same
> accuracy from a given distance regardless of what design of club he
> has.
>
> I posted a reply to Larry on a similar subject a while back. He was
> claiming that his lighter, graphite-shafted Callaways were easier to
> hit and required less effort for a given distance. He was probably
> right that it would be easier to hit an 150 yard 8 iron from that set
> than it would be to hit the same distance with a heavier, steel shafted
> 8 iron.Would that lighter, longer, low lofted 8 iron be more accurate
> from 150 yards than the 7 iron from the other set? I doubt it. Maybe
> people get an initial benefit from beefed-up clubs, because they would
> consistently underclub with their old, 'standard' clubs, coming up
> short from 150 yards with their 8 iron. Now they start hitting the
> right club. However, they will then hit a lucky 160 yard 8 iron and
> that now becomes their 160 yard club :-)
In my case, my graphite 8 iron (Wilson Fat Shaft Deep Red) has the
same loft as my steel 8 iron (Tommy Armour 845), but is a little
longer. I hit the graphite club about a club longer because I can
get faster swing speed with it. Part of that is from the reduced
weight, and part from the longer length.
I feel that I am more accurate with my graphite 8I than with
the steel 7I, but I haven't run strict scientific tests. I still
have my 845s, and I do one-on-one comparisons from
time to time and haven't yet felt compelled to switch
back to steel (although I'm thinking about doing it for
other reasons - feel and touch while chipping).
One reason I think the higher lofted graphite club is
more accurate is that due to the higher ball flight, it holds
the green better.
The knock on graphite in the past is that it has poor
torque, so off-center hits have worse dispersion compared
to steel. However, the fat shaft has excellent torque,
so that is really not a factor in my case.
You've mentioned the fact that steel is the weapon of
choice on the PGA Tour, and that is true. However,
very few of the people reading this thread have
swings remotely resembling those of PGA Tour
players. For those that do, yes steel is probably
the way to go. The rest of us might do better
looking at what the Seniors and Ladies are doing.
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 05:30:17
From: Simon
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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D.L. wrote:
> There is a little more to it than just trying to sell a longer hitting 7-iron.
> Assume both sets are built with same shafts and 38-inch 5-irons.
> With the old weak lofted set, you were hitting a 37.5 inch 35-degree
> loft 6-iron. With the new stronger loft set, you hitting a 37 inch
> 35-degree loft 7-iron. I feel the shorter 35-degree club will be
> more accurate from 150 yards. Yes, you can build the older heads
> with shorter shafts, but the lighter head takes a bunch of lead powder
> to get the swingweight up.
> D.L.
Has anyone ever experimented to see if a shorter, less lofted club is
more or less accurate than a longer higher lofted club for the same
distance? I have a feeling that every player is going to have the same
accuracy from a given distance regardless of what design of club he
has.
I posted a reply to Larry on a similar subject a while back. He was
claiming that his lighter, graphite-shafted Callaways were easier to
hit and required less effort for a given distance. He was probably
right that it would be easier to hit an 150 yard 8 iron from that set
than it would be to hit the same distance with a heavier, steel shafted
8 iron.Would that lighter, longer, low lofted 8 iron be more accurate
from 150 yards than the 7 iron from the other set? I doubt it. Maybe
people get an initial benefit from beefed-up clubs, because they would
consistently underclub with their old, 'standard' clubs, coming up
short from 150 yards with their 8 iron. Now they start hitting the
right club. However, they will then hit a lucky 160 yard 8 iron and
that now becomes their 160 yard club :-)
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 09:31:05
From: Joe
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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Simon wrote:
> D.L. wrote:
>
>
>>There is a little more to it than just trying to sell a longer hitting 7-iron.
>>Assume both sets are built with same shafts and 38-inch 5-irons.
>>With the old weak lofted set, you were hitting a 37.5 inch 35-degree
>>loft 6-iron. With the new stronger loft set, you hitting a 37 inch
>>35-degree loft 7-iron. I feel the shorter 35-degree club will be
>>more accurate from 150 yards. Yes, you can build the older heads
>>with shorter shafts, but the lighter head takes a bunch of lead powder
>>to get the swingweight up.
>>D.L.
>
>
> Has anyone ever experimented to see if a shorter, less lofted club is
> more or less accurate than a longer higher lofted club for the same
> distance? I have a feeling that every player is going to have the same
> accuracy from a given distance regardless of what design of club he
> has.
>
> I posted a reply to Larry on a similar subject a while back. He was
> claiming that his lighter, graphite-shafted Callaways were easier to
> hit and required less effort for a given distance. He was probably
> right that it would be easier to hit an 150 yard 8 iron from that set
> than it would be to hit the same distance with a heavier, steel shafted
> 8 iron.Would that lighter, longer, low lofted 8 iron be more accurate
> from 150 yards than the 7 iron from the other set? I doubt it. Maybe
> people get an initial benefit from beefed-up clubs, because they would
> consistently underclub with their old, 'standard' clubs, coming up
> short from 150 yards with their 8 iron. Now they start hitting the
> right club. However, they will then hit a lucky 160 yard 8 iron and
> that now becomes their 160 yard club :-)
>
As I recall Pelz did this work and published it in his first book.
Every player, from hack to tour pro has a side to side error rate that
is consistent for all of the irons. Full swing distances tend to be
more stable (I know some people are spastic and unreliable).
After I read that I made a point of finding out what my personal left /
right error rate was and planned my shots accordingly. When I did this
my error rate was 12%, I defined that as 90% of my shots would be inside
of a 24 yard window at 100 yards. If there was trouble inside that
window I would move my target spot to exclude the trouble. Dropped a
couple of stokes right away.
Pelz found that in his assessment of the tour pros that Travino had the
smallest error rate with something like 7% and that it was consistent
for the 9 though 2 iron.
As far as length is concerned, who cares. As an individual you can
generate x amount of club head speed for a given club of length /weight.
Hit the ball with the center of percussion and you will maximize the
distance, the difference between clubs than comes down to feel.
Joe
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Date: 19 Jan 2007 18:23:34
From: D.L.
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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There is a little more to it than just trying to sell a longer hitting 7-iron.
Assume both sets are built with same shafts and 38-inch 5-irons.
With the old weak lofted set, you were hitting a 37.5 inch 35-degree
loft 6-iron. With the new stronger loft set, you hitting a 37 inch
35-degree loft 7-iron. I feel the shorter 35-degree club will be
more accurate from 150 yards. Yes, you can build the older heads
with shorter shafts, but the lighter head takes a bunch of lead powder
to get the swingweight up.
D.L.
"water" <roebaer@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Ft7sh.24652$sR.22163@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm interested in learning a little more about the specifics of "club drift" evolution
> over the years(The fact that manufacturs have "drifted" loft angles
> towards the verticle over the years). Trying to do a little research here.
>
> In other words, its been said that a 30 year-old 7 iron has the same loft as a present
> day 8 iron, or something like that.
>
> This whole concept birthed the Gap Wedge to fill in the drift gap between a SW and PW, I
> have been told.
>
> At any rate, if anyone could offer a little more data or perhaps a webpage with a some
> more specifics(average loft degrees change, which clubs have
> been most affected by this, etc) it would be appreciated.
>
> TIA
>
> -water
>
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Date: 19 Jan 2007 18:39:05
From: greenkeeper
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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In message <Ft7sh.24652$sR.22163@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net >, water
<roebaer@hotmail.com > writes
>I'm interested in learning a little more about the specifics of "club drift"
>evolution over the years(The fact that manufacturs have "drifted" loft
>angles
> towards the verticle over the years). Trying to do a little research here.
>
>In other words, its been said that a 30 year-old 7 iron has the same loft
>as a present day 8 iron, or something like that.
>
>This whole concept birthed the Gap Wedge to fill in the drift gap between a
>SW and PW, I have been told.
>
>At any rate, if anyone could offer a little more data or perhaps a webpage
>with a some more specifics(average loft degrees change, which clubs have
>been most affected by this, etc) it would be appreciated.
>
>TIA
>
>-water
>
>
I have an old Diamond Golf catalogue which shows standard wedge loft of
50° and "old" loft of 52°.
http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/73008533/medium
--
alan
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Date: 19 Jan 2007 13:37:30
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm
"water" <roebaer@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Ft7sh.24652$sR.22163@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm interested in learning a little more about the specifics of "club
> drift" evolution over the years(The fact that manufacturs have "drifted"
> loft angles
> towards the verticle over the years). Trying to do a little research here.
>
> In other words, its been said that a 30 year-old 7 iron has the same
> loft as a present day 8 iron, or something like that.
>
> This whole concept birthed the Gap Wedge to fill in the drift gap between
> a SW and PW, I have been told.
>
> At any rate, if anyone could offer a little more data or perhaps a webpage
> with a some more specifics(average loft degrees change, which clubs have
> been most affected by this, etc) it would be appreciated.
>
> TIA
>
> -water
>
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Date: 19 Jan 2007 14:14:57
From: water
Subject: Re: club loft drift
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Thanks tin, exactly what i was looking for.
"tin Levac" <vac3@REMOVEvideotron.ca > wrote in message
news:Dd8sh.25951$eJ5.486028@wagner.videotron.net...
> http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm
>
> "water" <roebaer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ft7sh.24652$sR.22163@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>> I'm interested in learning a little more about the specifics of "club
>> drift" evolution over the years(The fact that manufacturs have "drifted"
>> loft angles
>> towards the verticle over the years). Trying to do a little research
>> here.
>>
>> In other words, its been said that a 30 year-old 7 iron has the same
>> loft as a present day 8 iron, or something like that.
>>
>> This whole concept birthed the Gap Wedge to fill in the drift gap between
>> a SW and PW, I have been told.
>>
>> At any rate, if anyone could offer a little more data or perhaps a
>> webpage with a some more specifics(average loft degrees change, which
>> clubs have
>> been most affected by this, etc) it would be appreciated.
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> -water
>>
>
>
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