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Main
Date: 03 Oct 2006 23:51:13
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ... well you know
but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in the
opposite direction.
I think I'm ready to listen. I was totally wrong about the shoulder turn and
even posted a graphic on my website, that a few of you saw, that
demonstrated a completely wrong idea. But I believe if you stick with your
ideas people can correct you, ... eventually... , but if you follow fads, no
one can ever pin you down because you're a moving target. Forget that ...
help me understand how the left wrist works ... and how it goes from cupped
to bowed and how two great strikers ... Hogam and Trevino had opposite wrist
position at the top. And don't worry if you really don't know and are just
repeating what you've read ... I expect that and do it myself. : =)
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 21:36:48
From: gpsman
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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AKA Gray Asphalt wrote: <brevity snip >
> The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ... well you know
> but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in the
> opposite direction.
Preferrably cupped slightly, or flat.
Inertia. It's not possible (ok, it's "possible") to maintain the same
wrist postition at address and the top and accelerate the swing through
the ball. Inertia is trying to pull everything into alignment by the
time the swing progresses through impact.
-----
- gpsman
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 22:58:08
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ... well you know
> but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in the
> opposite direction.
>
> I think I'm ready to listen. I was totally wrong about the shoulder turn and
> even posted a graphic on my website, that a few of you saw, that
> demonstrated a completely wrong idea. But I believe if you stick with your
> ideas people can correct you, ... eventually... , but if you follow fads, no
> one can ever pin you down because you're a moving target. Forget that ...
> help me understand how the left wrist works ... and how it goes from cupped
> to bowed and how two great strikers ... Hogam and Trevino had opposite wrist
> position at the top. And don't worry if you really don't know and are just
> repeating what you've read ... I expect that and do it myself. : =)
The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one person
to the next. As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction
is usually coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist
joint folds and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to
preach about in swing tech talk. The lucky ones can get good wrist
cock while keeping the it nice and flat, some can keep it supine, others
can't.
What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the most
consistency.
Dave
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 21:20:47
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:eg4go20tij@news2.newsguy.com...
> The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one person
> to the next.
No it really doesn't.
>As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction is usually
>coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist joint folds
>and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to preach about
>in swing tech talk.
The wrist doesn't rotate at all. The forearm does.
Hold your left forearm with your rt hand. Tight. Now rotate your left wrist
without rotating the forearm.
Can't be done. If you think you can, the bones of the forearm are rotating
inside the forearm.
Maybe you mean that the wrist joint will fold / bend only perpendicular to
the position of the ulna / radius bones of the forearm.
> The lucky ones can get good wrist cock while keeping the it nice and flat,
> some can keep it supine, others can't.
The left wrist stays flat due to a bend of the right. Lose the bend in the
right, the left wrist will cup.
Extensor action of the rt arm will help keep the left wrist flat as well as
cock the left wrist.
>
> What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
> their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the most
> consistency.
In the golf swing, the left wrist cocks up and down, The rt wrist folds
back, then approaches flat on the downswing. But never gets there prior to
impact..
The right wrist doesn't cock up and down. That'll cause an off plane
clubface, and shanks.
Any other configuration is a disaster.
>
> Dave
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Date: 17 Oct 2006 21:39:42
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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glfnaz wrote:
> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eg4go20tij@news2.newsguy.com...
>> The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one person
>> to the next.
>
> No it really doesn't.
Yes, it does. Each person's wrist bones form different angles of
motion, and the tension of the ligaments also has a significant effect.
Moreover, cocking the wrist as is done in the golf swing is partly
based on how the shaft is held in the fingers, and some golfers are able
to extend their thumb joint open much further than straight. This trait
(hitchiker's thumb) also changes how each golfer is able to lag the
shaft. For those who don't have hitchiker's thumb, we much rely more on
the ROM of the wrist.
>> As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction is usually
>> coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist joint folds
>> and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to preach about
>> in swing tech talk.
>
> The wrist doesn't rotate at all. The forearm does.
Well, the wrist has deviation and flexure. These take place strictly at
the carpal bones. The pronation/supination is a combination of the
wrist and forearm motion, priily the forearm. My point in the
opening sentences is that it's basically impossible to move a wrist in
pure deviation or flexure. It's always a combination of sorts.
> Hold your left forearm with your rt hand. Tight. Now rotate your left wrist
> without rotating the forearm.
> Can't be done. If you think you can, the bones of the forearm are rotating
> inside the forearm.
> Maybe you mean that the wrist joint will fold / bend only perpendicular to
> the position of the ulna / radius bones of the forearm.
I'm mostly referring to the motions within the wrist. The
pronation/supination in the forearm has been discussed here ad nauseam
and is NOT a contributing source to the modern swing. You've been here
long enough not to disturb that sleeping dog.
In any case, you haven't provided any substance to dispute what I've
said, so I'm so far at a loss whether you have anything to contribute to
the original topic.
>
>> The lucky ones can get good wrist cock while keeping the it nice and flat,
>> some can keep it supine, others can't.
>
> The left wrist stays flat due to a bend of the right. Lose the bend in the
> right, the left wrist will cup.
> Extensor action of the rt arm will help keep the left wrist flat as well as
> cock the left wrist.
Since you're spinning off my point I suppose my next step must be to
clarify. I'm talking about the supine position of the left wrist, which
I accidentally didn't specify. (Although the left wrist is usually the
reference wrist since it is the most visible during the backswing and
downswing.) Not everyone is successful at maintaining this supine
position all the way through the swing ala Ben Hogan. What worked for
him and his anatomy is of questionable value to someone else with
different hands and wrists. That is my point - that blindly following
someone else is a general recipe for distraction and disaster. I
suggest that each golfer look at what grip provides the most comfortable
position both at address/impact and at the top of the backswing, fully
cocked. Since the technically most consistent swing is the one with the
least unnecessary motion between these positions, each golfer must
figure out how strong of a left hand grip works best for them.
The fact that the right wrist mirrors the left in flexure is semantic.
>> What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
>> their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the most
>> consistency.
>
> In the golf swing, the left wrist cocks up and down, The rt wrist folds
> back, then approaches flat on the downswing. But never gets there prior to
> impact..
> The right wrist doesn't cock up and down. That'll cause an off plane
> clubface, and shanks.
> Any other configuration is a disaster.
The disaster I see is a failure to communicate. Partly my fault, but
since you haven't stated anything that contradicts my opinions, I'll
leave this discussion be.
Dave
>> Dave
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 23:51:30
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:4525d9a0$0$10304$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eg4go20tij@news2.newsguy.com...
>> The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one person
>> to the next.
>
> No it really doesn't.
>
>
>>As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction is usually
>>coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist joint folds
>>and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to preach about
>>in swing tech talk.
>
> The wrist doesn't rotate at all. The forearm does.
> Hold your left forearm with your rt hand. Tight. Now rotate your left
> wrist without rotating the forearm.
> Can't be done. If you think you can, the bones of the forearm are rotating
> inside the forearm.
> Maybe you mean that the wrist joint will fold / bend only perpendicular to
> the position of the ulna / radius bones of the forearm.
>
>
>> The lucky ones can get good wrist cock while keeping the it nice and
>> flat, some can keep it supine, others can't.
>
> The left wrist stays flat due to a bend of the right. Lose the bend in the
> right, the left wrist will cup.
> Extensor action of the rt arm will help keep the left wrist flat as well
> as cock the left wrist.
>
>>
>> What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
>> their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the most
>> consistency.
>
> In the golf swing, the left wrist cocks up and down, The rt wrist folds
> back, then approaches flat on the downswing. But never gets there prior to
> impact..
> The right wrist doesn't cock up and down. That'll cause an off plane
> clubface, and shanks.
> Any other configuration is a disaster.
>>
>> Dave
The right wrist has to cock up and down, at least a little while it hinges.
At least I thought it did, until I tried it again just now and it seems it
is possible to cock the left writ without cocking the right wrist, if the
right forearm rotates. I can not believe how complicated this one move is
and how misleading and complicated the explanations of it are.
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Date: 06 Oct 2006 07:48:15
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote in message
news:B9nVg.1739$v43.42@fed1read02...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:4525d9a0$0$10304$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:eg4go20tij@news2.newsguy.com...
>>> The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one person
>>> to the next.
>>
>> No it really doesn't.
>>
>>
>>>As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction is usually
>>>coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist joint folds
>>>and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to preach about
>>>in swing tech talk.
>>
>> The wrist doesn't rotate at all. The forearm does.
>> Hold your left forearm with your rt hand. Tight. Now rotate your left
>> wrist without rotating the forearm.
>> Can't be done. If you think you can, the bones of the forearm are
>> rotating inside the forearm.
>> Maybe you mean that the wrist joint will fold / bend only perpendicular
>> to the position of the ulna / radius bones of the forearm.
>>
>>
>>> The lucky ones can get good wrist cock while keeping the it nice and
>>> flat, some can keep it supine, others can't.
>>
>> The left wrist stays flat due to a bend of the right. Lose the bend in
>> the right, the left wrist will cup.
>> Extensor action of the rt arm will help keep the left wrist flat as well
>> as cock the left wrist.
>>
>>>
>>> What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
>>> their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the most
>>> consistency.
>>
>> In the golf swing, the left wrist cocks up and down, The rt wrist folds
>> back, then approaches flat on the downswing. But never gets there prior
>> to impact..
>> The right wrist doesn't cock up and down. That'll cause an off plane
>> clubface, and shanks.
>> Any other configuration is a disaster.
>>>
>>> Dave
>
> The right wrist has to cock up and down, at least a little while it
> hinges. At least I thought it did, until I tried it again just now and it
> seems it is possible to cock the left writ without cocking the right
> wrist, if the right forearm rotates. I can not believe how complicated
> this one move is and how misleading and complicated the explanations of it
> are.
>
>
Go to the top and hold your position.
Now cock the rt wrist.
It takes the entire shaft off plane, and rotates the clubface off plane.
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Date: 07 Oct 2006 10:20:35
From: AKA Gray Asphalt
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:45266cb1$0$25782$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com> wrote in message
> news:B9nVg.1739$v43.42@fed1read02...
>>
>> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>> news:4525d9a0$0$10304$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>>
>>> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eg4go20tij@news2.newsguy.com...
>>>> The flexibility and ROM of the wrist joint varys greatly from one
>>>> person to the next.
>>>
>>> No it really doesn't.
>>>
>>>
>>>>As well, the motion of rotating the wrist in one direction is usually
>>>>coupled with rotation in another - in other words, the wrist joint folds
>>>>and bends on diagonals rather than the clean axes we like to preach
>>>>about in swing tech talk.
>>>
>>> The wrist doesn't rotate at all. The forearm does.
>>> Hold your left forearm with your rt hand. Tight. Now rotate your left
>>> wrist without rotating the forearm.
>>> Can't be done. If you think you can, the bones of the forearm are
>>> rotating inside the forearm.
>>> Maybe you mean that the wrist joint will fold / bend only perpendicular
>>> to the position of the ulna / radius bones of the forearm.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The lucky ones can get good wrist cock while keeping the it nice and
>>>> flat, some can keep it supine, others can't.
>>>
>>> The left wrist stays flat due to a bend of the right. Lose the bend in
>>> the right, the left wrist will cup.
>>> Extensor action of the rt arm will help keep the left wrist flat as
>>> well as cock the left wrist.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What it all comes down to is that each golfer has a best way of using
>>>> their wrists, and that you should work with the one that offers the
>>>> most consistency.
>>>
>>> In the golf swing, the left wrist cocks up and down, The rt wrist folds
>>> back, then approaches flat on the downswing. But never gets there prior
>>> to impact..
>>> The right wrist doesn't cock up and down. That'll cause an off plane
>>> clubface, and shanks.
>>> Any other configuration is a disaster.
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>
>> The right wrist has to cock up and down, at least a little while it
>> hinges. At least I thought it did, until I tried it again just now and it
>> seems it is possible to cock the left writ without cocking the right
>> wrist, if the right forearm rotates. I can not believe how complicated
>> this one move is and how misleading and complicated the explanations of
>> it are.
>>
>>
> Go to the top and hold your position.
> Now cock the rt wrist.
> It takes the entire shaft off plane, and rotates the clubface off plane.
But don't you think that people who do the wrong kind of wrist cock adjust
by rotating the forearm?
It seems like the wrist joint and the forearm are all part of the same
joint. The hand gets almost full rotation by a combination of the actual
wrist bones, ligaments, and muscles and the rotation of the forearm. It is
very diffucult to move the wrist while not moving the forearm.
If you try to rotate the hand 360 degrees there is a point where you have to
rorate the forearm 90 degrees to complete the rotation of the hand.
The wrist is complicated. And when the guy on tv said that he understands
and no one else does that the left hand cocks and the right hand bends, it's
just not exactly true. The right wrist does a little of each. More bending
as you observe but if both hands are on the shaft and the left hand cocks
the shaft is going to make the right hand cock too.
But leaving the forearm out doesn't seem correct.
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 16:50:12
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
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Dave Lee wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1159961728.908199.234720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> > > The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ...
> >
> > Depends on the strength of the grip at address.
> >
> > http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200511/wieswing2.jpg
> >
> > Wrist is flat, clubface is square to target.
> >
> > > well you know
> > > but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in
> the
> > > opposite direction.
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > I think you have a few misconceptions about the golf swing.
> >
>
> If I were writing that sentence I guess I would say "flat to bowed" rather
> than just "bowed". But it sounds fundamentally correct to me either way.
> What seems wrong here from your perspective?
>
> I have also seen it written by many different teachers over the years that
> for some golfers, a bit of cupping at the top is fine. I have also wondered
> how (for those golfers) 'the flattening' is supposed to happen. That part
> never seems to be discussed that I recall - although it isn't something that
> I've ever looked for either.
>
> dave
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 16:42:05
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1159961728.908199.234720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> > > The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ...
> >
> > Depends on the strength of the grip at address.
> >
> > http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200511/wieswing2.jpg
> >
> > Wrist is flat, clubface is square to target.
> >
> > > well you know
> > > but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in
> the
> > > opposite direction.
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > I think you have a few misconceptions about the golf swing.
> >
>
> If I were writing that sentence I guess I would say "flat to bowed" rather
> than just "bowed". But it sounds fundamentally correct to me either way.
> What seems wrong here from your perspective?
Flat would be correct, but not bowed.
> I have also seen it written by many different teachers over the years that
> for some golfers, a bit of cupping at the top is fine.
Sure, and that's why I qualified it with grip strength at address. The
strong the grip, the more cupping necessary to keep the club square at
the top. However, I never even think of such things.
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 05:28:01
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
Elmo wrote:
> SKIPPER wrote:
> > Alan Murphy wrote:
> >
> >> Check out the thread "AJ's principles from this video"
> >> posted by Dene a couple of days ago. This is an
> >> explanation of wrist positions at the top and at impact.
> >> Surprised there were no comments on it.
> >
> > The video didn't work for me...all I saw was a short
> > commercial for Cobra.
>
> After the ad, there's a long pause as the large video is loaded. On
> dial-up, it would probably be much longer a wait.
On a Mac, with a broadband connection, the wait appears infinitely
long.
-PA
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 05:02:53
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ... well you know
> but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in the
> opposite direction.
>
> I think I'm ready to listen. I was totally wrong about the shoulder turn and
> even posted a graphic on my website, that a few of you saw, that
> demonstrated a completely wrong idea. But I believe if you stick with your
> ideas people can correct you, ... eventually... , but if you follow fads, no
> one can ever pin you down because you're a moving target. Forget that ...
> help me understand how the left wrist works ... and how it goes from cupped
> to bowed and how two great strikers ... Hogam and Trevino had opposite wrist
> position at the top. And don't worry if you really don't know and are just
> repeating what you've read ... I expect that and do it myself. : =)
That's one way to do it, but there are other ways. Hogan had his way,
but most modern pros go a different route. Does Tigers left wrist look
"cupped backward with a crease" to you at the top? Not to me.
That doesn't mean you can't play good golf the AJ/Hogan way - but
it takes good timing.
Many hackers roll the wrists open on the backswing anyway. It is a
very natural feeling thing to do. So when they end up at the top with
the left wrist cupped and the toe pointing down, they better do
something
to correct it on the downswing. That is why AJ's advice works so
well for many who try it.
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 04:35:29
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ...
Depends on the strength of the grip at address.
http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200511/wieswing2.jpg
Wrist is flat, clubface is square to target.
> well you know
> but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in the
> opposite direction.
Huh?
I think you have a few misconceptions about the golf swing.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Oct 2006 12:03:24
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1159961728.908199.234720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> AKA Gray Asphalt wrote:
> > The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ...
>
> Depends on the strength of the grip at address.
>
> http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200511/wieswing2.jpg
>
> Wrist is flat, clubface is square to target.
>
> > well you know
> > but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped in
the
> > opposite direction.
>
> Huh?
>
> I think you have a few misconceptions about the golf swing.
>
If I were writing that sentence I guess I would say "flat to bowed" rather
than just "bowed". But it sounds fundamentally correct to me either way.
What seems wrong here from your perspective?
I have also seen it written by many different teachers over the years that
for some golfers, a bit of cupping at the top is fine. I have also wondered
how (for those golfers) 'the flattening' is supposed to happen. That part
never seems to be discussed that I recall - although it isn't something that
I've ever looked for either.
dave
|
| |
Date: 04 Oct 2006 04:29:18
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
Alan Murphy wrote:
> Check out the thread "AJ's principles from this video"
> posted by Dene a couple of days ago. This is an
> explanation of wrist positions at the top and at impact.
> Surprised there were no comments on it.
The video didn't work for me...all I saw was a short
commercial for Cobra.
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 04 Oct 2006 08:04:04
From: Elmo
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
SKIPPER wrote:
> Alan Murphy wrote:
>=20
>> Check out the thread "AJ's principles from this video"
>> posted by Dene a couple of days ago. This is an
>> explanation of wrist positions at the top and at impact.
>> Surprised there were no comments on it.
>=20
> The video didn't work for me...all I saw was a short
> commercial for Cobra.
After the ad, there's a long pause as the large video is loaded. On=20
dial-up, it would probably be much longer a wait.
--=20
Joe =3Do)
___
\o `
&
/ \
=B0
|
| |
Date: 04 Oct 2006 08:49:37
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: Why is wrist different at top than at impact?
|
"AKA Gray Asphalt" <goodidea1950@hotmail.spam.com > wrote in message
news:aZIUg.1602$v43.771@fed1read02...
> The wrist is supposed to be cupped backward with a crease ... well you
> know but through the impact area it is supposed to be 'bowed', ie cupped
> in the opposite direction.
>
> I think I'm ready to listen. I was totally wrong about the shoulder turn
> and even posted a graphic on my website, that a few of you saw, that
> demonstrated a completely wrong idea. But I believe if you stick with
> your ideas people can correct you, ... eventually... , but if you follow
> fads, no one can ever pin you down because you're a moving target. Forget
> that ... help me understand how the left wrist works ... and how it goes
> from cupped to bowed and how two great strikers ... Hogam and Trevino had
> opposite wrist position at the top. And don't worry if you really don't
> know and are just repeating what you've read ... I expect that and do it
> myself. : =)
>
Check out the thread "AJ's principles from this video"
posted by Dene a couple of days ago. This is an
explanation of wrist positions at the top and at impact.
Surprised there were no comments on it.
Alan
|
|
