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Date: 28 Apr 2007 17:43:55
From: warren montgomery
Subject: What determines where the big boys play?
I'm confused. the last couple of weeks on the PGA tour included Hilton
Head, which is a great layout with history and presumably good money, and
New Orleans, where I would think top players would be glad to play to help
the area, and none of the top players played. This week they are playing on
something that looks like a Texas goat track (huge patches of dead grass in
the greens), a TPC course with no history, and several of the top players
show up. Now if Byron Nelson were still alive I could see players coming as
a tribute to him, but Lord Byron is on a fairway to heaven, and nobodly is
going to feel sentimental about patronizing an even sponsored by Ross Perot,
so why are these guys here? (And why are they playing on a course with such
awful looking greens? According to Feherty and the others at least that bad
grass really is effecting the play, not just cosmetically bad. If places
like Chicago and Green Bay can do a total turf transplant to have a nice
sold and green football field in February, why can't they produce greens
that worthy of the PGA tour in Dallas in April?)

--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery






 
Date: 01 May 2007 07:37:25
From: gregg.little@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On May 1, 8:42 am, Chris Bellomy <p...@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:
> Birdie Bill <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > For what it's worth, Plano is the only town I've lived in
> > that sold used golf balls in bulk bins in the Supermarkets.
>
> I used to be able to do that in Fort Worth, too.
>
> --
> Chris Bellomy
> C-List Charter Memberhttp://clist.org/

you still can on bluebonnett circle at Target Golf. Good store.



  
Date: 01 May 2007 17:09:59
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
gregg.little@gmail.com <gregg.little@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 1, 8:42 am, Chris Bellomy <p...@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>> Birdie Bill <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > For what it's worth, Plano is the only town I've lived in
>> > that sold used golf balls in bulk bins in the Supermarkets.
>>
>> I used to be able to do that in Fort Worth, too.
>
> you still can on bluebonnett circle at Target Golf. Good store.

Must be nice to be able to walk there.

You think they'd have some decent inexpensive women's clubs for
my 11 y/o boy?

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


 
Date: 30 Apr 2007 22:56:21
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On May 1, 12:38 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com > wrote:
> "Bobby Knight" <bkni...@conramp.net> wrote in message
>
> news:q6dc33l7bm6n0um6eql0eeadubi221igjf@4ax.com...
>
> > On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:52:36 -0000, Chris Bellomy
> > <p...@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>Craig Ranch is probably 50 miles from my door. But that's just an
> >>artifact of urban sprawl. IMO, wherever the people are, that's the
> >>metro area. And a bunch of people with some money to spend live in
> >>Collin County these days.
>
> > The Nelson will remain in Irving, for many, many, reasons.
>
> Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although perhaps
> not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
> reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are shuttled
> in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
> order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable. But
> as far as the central location of Las Colinas being desireable because you
> believe that's where the people are, well, all I can say is look to the
> north of Fort Worth -- Boonieville -- where the NASCAR track attracts a
> ridiculous number of people on a more regular basis than there are PGA TOUR
> events in the metroplex. Trust me -- fans will go where the tournament is.
> I've seen it in city after city, where the TOUR venues are sometimes pretty
> far off the beaten path.
>
> The bottom line for the Nelson is this: They'll go where they get the best
> deal -- period. And while I tend to agree with you in the short term that
> they'll stay put at the TPC at Las Colinas, I wouldn't be the least bit
> surprised if the tournament moved sometime in the not-too-distant future.
> They were talking about moving it before I left Dallas. And with a new TPC
> in the area (which I didn't know about) in an area that is deemed as more
> upscale than Irving (what isn't?), I could see a move in the tournament's
> future.
>
> For what it's worth (and it's admittedly not worth much) the folks who run
> PGA TOUR Superstore here in Atlanta, who certainly did their homework in
> determining where the most golfers are in this area before opening their
> stores here, are opening two stores (if they haven't already) in the DFW
> area. And where did they decided to put those two stores? One near Dallas
> and one near Fort Worth? Nope. Both in Plano.

Two stores in Plano?? LOL, I guess Golfsmith will have to open
another store
there, too. For what it's worth, Plano is the only town I've lived in
that
sold used golf balls in bulk bins in the Supermarkets. Used to be
able
to get Titleist Professionals for 25 cents each, back when those were
good balls.



  
Date: 01 May 2007 13:42:29
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
Birdie Bill <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:

> For what it's worth, Plano is the only town I've lived in
> that sold used golf balls in bulk bins in the Supermarkets.

I used to be able to do that in Fort Worth, too.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


 
Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:06:44
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?

> Oak Cliff has already entered the gentrification phase, but let me
> put it this way: there will never be a PGA Tour stop in Oak Cliff
> again.

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about how cities
are abandoned for suburbs, and I wanted to point out that there are
some city neighborhoods (like Oak Cliff, one of the first
neighborhoods in Dallas history) that remain hot and desirable.

I have no opinion about a PGA Tour stop being there. Seems to me the
hooligans and the traffic are better off elsewhere.

Ed



  
Date: 01 May 2007 02:45:05
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
EdSmithers <spirosdarlotts@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
>> Oak Cliff has already entered the gentrification phase, but let me
>> put it this way: there will never be a PGA Tour stop in Oak Cliff
>> again.
>
> I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about how cities
> are abandoned for suburbs, and I wanted to point out that there are
> some city neighborhoods (like Oak Cliff, one of the first
> neighborhoods in Dallas history) that remain hot and desirable.

Oak Cliff is hot and desirable only among a certain subset of
young adults and gays who enjoy the character of the older homes
and neighborhoods and reject suburban blandness. I happen to think
that these folks are the smart ones. But they're also a heavy
minority around here. The northern suburbs from Flower Mound to
Lewisville to Carrollton to Plano to Frisco to McKinney contain
a lot more people who make a lot more money than the folks in
Oak Cliff. That's where the jobs are going. That's where the
public schools haven't been left to rot.

Me? I live in Fort Worth. :)

> I have no opinion about a PGA Tour stop being there. Seems to me the
> hooligans and the traffic are better off elsewhere.

Well, my point was this, really: Oak Cliff used to host the Dallas
Open way back when. Now it's unthinkable. The geographical and
political center of the Dallas metro area moves north every year,
and Las Colinas is already well south of it. (I'd place the true
center of metro Dallas today around Addison.) That's where the
golf patrons are going to be. That's where the Salesmanship Club
guys are going to be. Eventually, that's where the Nelson is
going to be. Heck, before Las Colinas it was at Preston Trail,
north of Addison -- and that was 25 years of urban sprawl ago.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


 
Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:13:17
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
> Dallas proper is on its
> way to becoming the Detroit of the southwest, an urban core that
> has been abandoned for toney suburbs and left pretty much to rot.
> Oak Cliff was just the warm-up act.


My daughter lives in Oak Cliff and we are just back from there. That's
a great great area, varied, vital, and full of the friendliest folks
in Dallas. She's been there for 10 years and it's the same as it's
been.




  
Date: 30 Apr 2007 19:43:08
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
EdSmithers <spirosdarlotts@yahoo.com > wrote:
>> Dallas proper is on its
>> way to becoming the Detroit of the southwest, an urban core that
>> has been abandoned for toney suburbs and left pretty much to rot.
>> Oak Cliff was just the warm-up act.
>
> My daughter lives in Oak Cliff and we are just back from there. That's
> a great great area, varied, vital, and full of the friendliest folks
> in Dallas. She's been there for 10 years and it's the same as it's
> been.

Oak Cliff has already entered the gentrification phase, but let me
put it this way: there will never be a PGA Tour stop in Oak Cliff
again.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


 
Date: 29 Apr 2007 09:17:38
From: Miss Anne Thrope
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"...Lord Byron is on a fairway to Heaven."

Jimmy page should beat you senseless with one of his guitars for that
bad pun.



 
Date: 28 Apr 2007 23:15:28
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
warren montgomery <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
> I'm confused. the last couple of weeks on the PGA tour included Hilton
> Head, which is a great layout with history and presumably good money, and
> New Orleans, where I would think top players would be glad to play to help
> the area, and none of the top players played. This week they are playing on
> something that looks like a Texas goat track (huge patches of dead grass in
> the greens), a TPC course with no history, and several of the top players
> show up. Now if Byron Nelson were still alive I could see players coming as
> a tribute to him, but Lord Byron is on a fairway to heaven, and nobodly is
> going to feel sentimental about patronizing an even sponsored by Ross Perot,
> so why are these guys here?

1. Memorial ceremonies for Mr. Nelson. It's a sign of respect.

2. The Nelson historically has been the 800 lb. gorilla of
charitable fundraising on the PGA Tour. They raise a *ton*
of money out there and I think the pros like being part of
that.

3. Ross Perot and EDS parted ways years ago, btw.

> (And why are they playing on a course with such
> awful looking greens? According to Feherty and the others at least that bad
> grass really is effecting the play, not just cosmetically bad. If places
> like Chicago and Green Bay can do a total turf transplant to have a nice
> sold and green football field in February, why can't they produce greens
> that worthy of the PGA tour in Dallas in April?)

I don't know what the hell happened to their greens. I play courses
with bent grass greens in this area on a fairly regular basis and
none of them are having this trouble. I really just couldn't tell
you.

TPC Las Colinas really is a pretty mediocre course for a Tour
stop, though. You are absolutely right about that.

I think next year's field for that event will be interesting to
monitor. I suspect it won't be nearly as strong.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


  
Date: 28 Apr 2007 23:21:09
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:1T4238mrIalaN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> warren montgomery <wamontgomery@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> I'm confused. the last couple of weeks on the PGA tour included Hilton
>> Head, which is a great layout with history and presumably good money, and
>> New Orleans, where I would think top players would be glad to play to
>> help
>> the area, and none of the top players played. This week they are playing
>> on
>> something that looks like a Texas goat track (huge patches of dead grass
>> in
>> the greens), a TPC course with no history, and several of the top players
>> show up. Now if Byron Nelson were still alive I could see players coming
>> as
>> a tribute to him, but Lord Byron is on a fairway to heaven, and nobodly
>> is
>> going to feel sentimental about patronizing an even sponsored by Ross
>> Perot,
>> so why are these guys here?
>
> 1. Memorial ceremonies for Mr. Nelson. It's a sign of respect.
>
> 2. The Nelson historically has been the 800 lb. gorilla of
> charitable fundraising on the PGA Tour. They raise a *ton*
> of money out there and I think the pros like being part of
> that.


Two tournaments on the PGA TOUR more or less lap the field compared to all
other TOUR events when it comes to charitable contributions to their
respective communities -- the Byron Nelson event, and the one in Phoenix.
For many years, the Nelson has been #1 on TOUR in charity, largely because
of the enormous support of The Salesmanship Club of Dallas (those guys in
the red pants) who organize the event and make it one of THE social events
of the year in the Dallas area.

It used to be a running joke that if you couldn't get laid as a result of
meeting someone at the Byron Nelson tournament, you couldn't get laid at
all.


> 3. Ross Perot and EDS parted ways years ago, btw.
>
>> (And why are they playing on a course with such
>> awful looking greens? According to Feherty and the others at least that
>> bad
>> grass really is effecting the play, not just cosmetically bad. If places
>> like Chicago and Green Bay can do a total turf transplant to have a nice
>> sold and green football field in February, why can't they produce greens
>> that worthy of the PGA tour in Dallas in April?)
>
> I don't know what the hell happened to their greens. I play courses
> with bent grass greens in this area on a fairly regular basis and
> none of them are having this trouble. I really just couldn't tell
> you.
>
> TPC Las Colinas really is a pretty mediocre course for a Tour
> stop, though. You are absolutely right about that.


There's another element of the Nelson that most people outside of TOUR
circles and who don't live in the Dallas area wouldn't know, which is the
fact that the resort where the tournament is held is a world-class facility,
and the pros absolutely LOVE staying there. The Salesmanship Club treats
the players like royalty, and the resort is one of the finest they stay at
all year (and those who don't stay right there at the resort will usually
stay at the old Four Seasons down the road at the Las Colinas Urban Center,
which is another fabulous hotel). The fact that the tournament was, for
many years, scheduled on the week adjacent to the Colonial Tournament in
neighboring Fort Worth, has helped make the Nelson a staple on TOUR.

That said, I have to say, having seen most of the TOUR courses first-hand, I
tend to agree that this particular TPC course is one of the weaker ones
among all the TPCs. Part of the reason for that is that it is one of the
few that is *not* TOUR-owned and operated. It is a franchise TPC.

Cottonwood Valley GC, which is across the street, doesn't compare favorably
to the TPC, and tends to be a little too easy for the pros. But remember
the reason why it was brought on to host one of the Thursday-Friday rounds
(everybody plays both courses the first two days, and then after the cut,
the field plays the TPC exclusively). In 1994 when Neal Lancaster won the
rain-shortened (to 36 holes) event (known to many in the local media as "the
Half-Nelson"), the decision was made to use a second course to give the
tournament a better chance of getting the entire field around for the
opening rounds. The Nelson has been plagued over the years by bad weather,
which has always made me wonder why they didn't lobby the TOUR for a
different position in the schedule. But it gets so damn hot in North Texas
in the Summer, they sure as hell wouldn't want to move it later...unless
they moved it to the Fall, which would reduce the tournament's importance,
since most Fall events are mere afterthoughts to most players. And a move
to an earlier date in the year would be logistically difficult, given that
the TOUR is either on the West Coast or in Florida for most of those weeks.
(Although this year, Houston managed to move up into that mix somehow.)


> I think next year's field for that event will be interesting to
> monitor. I suspect it won't be nearly as strong.


More than that, I think it will be interesting to see what D.A. Weibring's
golf design company does to the course.

Frankly, I think there are better golf courses in the Dallas area to host a
PGA TOUR event. My vote would go to Stonebridge Country Club in McKinney,
TX, a Pete Dye design, and one of the most challenging courses you'll find
anywhere in the country. (To my friend in Dallas: If you haven't played
it, you should.) But the logistics involved in putting a TOUR event out on
that side of town (parking, hotel rooms, convenient airport access,
tc.) -- not to mention the apparent lack of interest by the course
operators in hosting a TOUR event -- makes such a move seem unlikely. I do
know that a few years ago, there was some talk about trying to find a
different location to host the event. I don't know what happened, but
obviously, they decided to stay right there at the TPC.

Randy




   
Date: 29 Apr 2007 04:04:00
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

> Frankly, I think there are better golf courses in the Dallas area to host a
> PGA TOUR event. My vote would go to Stonebridge Country Club in McKinney,
> TX, a Pete Dye design, and one of the most challenging courses you'll find
> anywhere in the country. (To my friend in Dallas: If you haven't played
> it, you should.) But the logistics involved in putting a TOUR event out on
> that side of town (parking, hotel rooms, convenient airport access,
> tc.) -- not to mention the apparent lack of interest by the course
> operators in hosting a TOUR event -- makes such a move seem unlikely. I do
> know that a few years ago, there was some talk about trying to find a
> different location to host the event. I don't know what happened, but
> obviously, they decided to stay right there at the TPC.

There's a new TPC course McKinney way called TPC at Craig Ranch:

http://www.tpc.com/private/craig_ranch/index.html

At some point I would guess that the Nelson might move there,
probably after they build lodging comparable to the resort in
Las Colinas. I actually did not know that the resort there was
as swank as you said -- I learned something today. Thanks.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


    
Date: 29 Apr 2007 12:08:01
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 04:04:00 -0000, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:

>"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I think there are better golf courses in the Dallas area to host a
>> PGA TOUR event. My vote would go to Stonebridge Country Club in McKinney,
>> TX, a Pete Dye design, and one of the most challenging courses you'll find
>> anywhere in the country. (To my friend in Dallas: If you haven't played
>> it, you should.) But the logistics involved in putting a TOUR event out on
>> that side of town (parking, hotel rooms, convenient airport access,
>> tc.) -- not to mention the apparent lack of interest by the course
>> operators in hosting a TOUR event -- makes such a move seem unlikely. I do
>> know that a few years ago, there was some talk about trying to find a
>> different location to host the event. I don't know what happened, but
>> obviously, they decided to stay right there at the TPC.
>
>There's a new TPC course McKinney way called TPC at Craig Ranch:
>
>http://www.tpc.com/private/craig_ranch/index.html
>
>At some point I would guess that the Nelson might move there,
>probably after they build lodging comparable to the resort in
>Las Colinas. I actually did not know that the resort there was
>as swank as you said -- I learned something today. Thanks.

No way the Nelson would ever leave the Metroplex area. Are you
kidding? You think that the Salesmanship Club is gonna be able to
sell McKinney, 35 miles north of town?
--
___,
\o


     
Date: 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 04:04:00 -0000, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I think there are better golf courses in the Dallas area to host a
>>> PGA TOUR event. My vote would go to Stonebridge Country Club in McKinney,
>>> TX, a Pete Dye design, and one of the most challenging courses you'll find
>>> anywhere in the country. (To my friend in Dallas: If you haven't played
>>> it, you should.) But the logistics involved in putting a TOUR event out on
>>> that side of town (parking, hotel rooms, convenient airport access,
>>> tc.) -- not to mention the apparent lack of interest by the course
>>> operators in hosting a TOUR event -- makes such a move seem unlikely. I do
>>> know that a few years ago, there was some talk about trying to find a
>>> different location to host the event. I don't know what happened, but
>>> obviously, they decided to stay right there at the TPC.
>>
>>There's a new TPC course McKinney way called TPC at Craig Ranch:
>>
>>http://www.tpc.com/private/craig_ranch/index.html
>>
>>At some point I would guess that the Nelson might move there,
>>probably after they build lodging comparable to the resort in
>>Las Colinas. I actually did not know that the resort there was
>>as swank as you said -- I learned something today. Thanks.
>
> No way the Nelson would ever leave the Metroplex area. Are you
> kidding? You think that the Salesmanship Club is gonna be able to
> sell McKinney, 35 miles north of town?

Yeah, since most of them live up there now. Dallas proper is on its
way to becoming the Detroit of the southwest, an urban core that
has been abandoned for toney suburbs and left pretty much to rot.
Oak Cliff was just the warm-up act.

When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


      
Date: 29 Apr 2007 21:24:42
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19 -0000, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:


>When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?
I'm in Dallas County and don't consider myself living in the
Metroplex.


       
Date: 30 Apr 2007 00:31:35
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19 -0000, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?
>
> I'm in Dallas County and don't consider myself living in the
> Metroplex.

Oh. Well, different definitions for different folks, I guess.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


        
Date: 30 Apr 2007 02:18:16
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:1T4262ajI1bkN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19 -0000, Chris Bellomy
>> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?
>>
>> I'm in Dallas County and don't consider myself living in the
>> Metroplex.
>
> Oh. Well, different definitions for different folks, I guess.


Since the term "metroplex" is a totally media-concocted term, allow me, as a
member of the media, to inform you that when "we" (the radio media) referred
to "the metroplex" when I lived there, we were referring to the Dallas-Fort
Worth MARKET, as defined by Arbitron, the company that estimates listening
levels to area radio stations. Arbitron defined the Dallas-Fort Worth
market as an 11-county area...several of which, I'm quite sure, not even you
would consider part of "the metroplex."

This reminds me, just a little, of when I lived in the Houston area in 1990.
The golf course I used to play was in suburban Missouri City, TX, southwest
of Houston proper. Missouri City is where most of the FM and TV stations
have their transmitters, since it is one of the highest points in the area
(which is ironic, considering that the golf course was underwater right
after I left Houston due to "hundred year floods"). Anyway, the golf course
was practically in the shadows of most of the broadcast radio towers in the
Houston metro. The golf course, which ran through a residential
development, had OB on both sides of most of the holes. Needless to say,
we'd have spent the better part of most afternoons if everyone abided
strictly to all the rules governing OB, as many players would be making the
so-called "longest walk in golf," and holding up play (if they didn't have
the good sense to hit provisionals, which they often failed to do). So I
always had a rule, which went something like this: If the ball landed
within my radio station's coverage area, it was in bounds.

Randy




         
Date: 30 Apr 2007 12:53:02
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:18:16 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

>"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
>news:1T4262ajI1bkN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
>> Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19 -0000, Chris Bellomy
>>> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?
>>>
>>> I'm in Dallas County and don't consider myself living in the
>>> Metroplex.
>>
>> Oh. Well, different definitions for different folks, I guess.
>
>
>Since the term "metroplex" is a totally media-concocted term, allow me, as a
>member of the media, to inform you that when "we" (the radio media) referred
>to "the metroplex" when I lived there, we were referring to the Dallas-Fort
>Worth MARKET, as defined by Arbitron, the company that estimates listening
>levels to area radio stations. Arbitron defined the Dallas-Fort Worth
>market as an 11-county area...several of which, I'm quite sure, not even you
>would consider part of "the metroplex."
>

That's great if you want to listen to a golf tournament on radio, but
when you use the term Metroplex, referring to traveling distance or
ease of access it's doesn't compute. For instance, Chris lives in the
Metroplex, but the distance he would have to travel to get to the TPC
at Craig Ranch is probably 70 miles. In this context, which I'm sure
that the Salesmanship Club will use, that's out of area for 50% of
"their" Metroplex. They need bodies.


>
--
___,
\o


          
Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:52:36
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:18:16 -0400, "\"R&B\""
> <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>
>>"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:1T4262ajI1bkN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
>>> Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 17:16:19 -0000, Chris Bellomy
>>>> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>When did Collin County quit being part of the Metroplex area, anyway?
>>>>
>>>> I'm in Dallas County and don't consider myself living in the
>>>> Metroplex.
>>>
>>> Oh. Well, different definitions for different folks, I guess.
>>
>>
>>Since the term "metroplex" is a totally media-concocted term, allow me, as a
>>member of the media, to inform you that when "we" (the radio media) referred
>>to "the metroplex" when I lived there, we were referring to the Dallas-Fort
>>Worth MARKET, as defined by Arbitron, the company that estimates listening
>>levels to area radio stations. Arbitron defined the Dallas-Fort Worth
>>market as an 11-county area...several of which, I'm quite sure, not even you
>>would consider part of "the metroplex."
>
> That's great if you want to listen to a golf tournament on radio, but
> when you use the term Metroplex, referring to traveling distance or
> ease of access it's doesn't compute. For instance, Chris lives in the
> Metroplex, but the distance he would have to travel to get to the TPC
> at Craig Ranch is probably 70 miles. In this context, which I'm sure
> that the Salesmanship Club will use, that's out of area for 50% of
> "their" Metroplex. They need bodies.

Craig Ranch is probably 50 miles from my door. But that's just an
artifact of urban sprawl. IMO, wherever the people are, that's the
metro area. And a bunch of people with some money to spend live in
Collin County these days.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


           
Date: 30 Apr 2007 18:28:53
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:52:36 -0000, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:

>Craig Ranch is probably 50 miles from my door. But that's just an
>artifact of urban sprawl. IMO, wherever the people are, that's the
>metro area. And a bunch of people with some money to spend live in
>Collin County these days.

The Nelson will remain in Irving, for many, many, reasons.
___,
\o


            
Date: 01 May 2007 01:38:58
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:q6dc33l7bm6n0um6eql0eeadubi221igjf@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:52:36 -0000, Chris Bellomy
> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Craig Ranch is probably 50 miles from my door. But that's just an
>>artifact of urban sprawl. IMO, wherever the people are, that's the
>>metro area. And a bunch of people with some money to spend live in
>>Collin County these days.
>
> The Nelson will remain in Irving, for many, many, reasons.


Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although perhaps
not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are shuttled
in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable. But
as far as the central location of Las Colinas being desireable because you
believe that's where the people are, well, all I can say is look to the
north of Fort Worth -- Boonieville -- where the NASCAR track attracts a
ridiculous number of people on a more regular basis than there are PGA TOUR
events in the metroplex. Trust me -- fans will go where the tournament is.
I've seen it in city after city, where the TOUR venues are sometimes pretty
far off the beaten path.

The bottom line for the Nelson is this: They'll go where they get the best
deal -- period. And while I tend to agree with you in the short term that
they'll stay put at the TPC at Las Colinas, I wouldn't be the least bit
surprised if the tournament moved sometime in the not-too-distant future.
They were talking about moving it before I left Dallas. And with a new TPC
in the area (which I didn't know about) in an area that is deemed as more
upscale than Irving (what isn't?), I could see a move in the tournament's
future.

For what it's worth (and it's admittedly not worth much) the folks who run
PGA TOUR Superstore here in Atlanta, who certainly did their homework in
determining where the most golfers are in this area before opening their
stores here, are opening two stores (if they haven't already) in the DFW
area. And where did they decided to put those two stores? One near Dallas
and one near Fort Worth? Nope. Both in Plano.

Randy




             
Date: 01 May 2007 13:44:12
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

> Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although perhaps
> not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
> reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are shuttled
> in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
> order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable.

That will probably be gone by 2010. Texas Stadium's days are
numbered.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


              
Date: 01 May 2007 23:44:25
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:1T42a545IpigN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>
>> Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although
>> perhaps
>> not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
>> reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are
>> shuttled
>> in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
>> order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable.
>
> That will probably be gone by 2010. Texas Stadium's days are
> numbered.

I would assume so.

Any word on what they plan to do with that land?

It's a prime piece of real estate.

Randy




               
Date: 02 May 2007 03:59:34
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:
> "Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
> news:1T42a545IpigN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
>> "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although
>>> perhaps
>>> not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
>>> reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are
>>> shuttled
>>> in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
>>> order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable.
>>
>> That will probably be gone by 2010. Texas Stadium's days are
>> numbered.
>
> I would assume so.
>
> Any word on what they plan to do with that land?
>
> It's a prime piece of real estate.

The last I heard, they were aiming for retail, maybe a mall, but
I admit that I haven't kept up with this much.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/


             
Date: 01 May 2007 12:38:20
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Tue, 1 May 2007 01:38:58 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:q6dc33l7bm6n0um6eql0eeadubi221igjf@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:52:36 -0000, Chris Bellomy
>> <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:

>> The Nelson will remain in Irving, for many, many, reasons.
>

>Look, I have no dog in this hunt. You're probably right, although perhaps
>not for the most obvious reasons. The resort, easy airport access and
>reasonable access from Texas Stadium's parking lot (where fans are shuttled
>in from on busses) are the #1, #2 and #3 reasons (not necessarily in that
>order) why the location they presently have is perceived as desireable.

That, plus downtown Big D is more compact as far as dining, hotels,
etc.

> But as far as the central location of Las Colinas being desireable because you
>believe that's where the people are, well, all I can say is look to the
>north of Fort Worth -- Boonieville -- where the NASCAR track attracts a
>ridiculous number of people on a more regular basis than there are PGA TOUR
>events in the metroplex.

Absolutely true..but apples and oranges. I can't think of a golf
tournament that attracts 250,000 fans from all over the country, with
parking set aside for RVs.

>Trust me -- fans will go where the tournament is. I've seen it in city after city, where the TOUR venues are sometimes pretty
>far off the beaten path.
>
<clip >
>For what it's worth (and it's admittedly not worth much) the folks who run
>PGA TOUR Superstore here in Atlanta, who certainly did their homework in
>determining where the most golfers are in this area before opening their
>stores here, are opening two stores (if they haven't already) in the DFW
>area. And where did they decided to put those two stores? One near Dallas
>and one near Fort Worth? Nope. Both in Plano.

Just one in Plano, the other is in Frisco...which is further north.
However, you'll remember that the Nelson's main support isn't
golfers...it's only second to the Scottsdale tournament in partying.

They'll have do a lot to get them to move.
--
___,
\o


   
Date: 28 Apr 2007 23:35:53
From: Otto
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?

""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message
news:XoydnYi6fvm4kqnbnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@giganews.com...

> snipped Randy's excellent defense of the Byron classic>



The course(s) appears to be in less than optimum shape.

The purse is too small.

The Fedex cup points are too small.

Byron is dead.



You wanna bring out ALL the big boys?



Kill the mold on the greens and provide optimum playing conditions.

A purse bigger than 8 million.

27,500 Fedex cup points or more.

Bring back Byron or one of his friends.



The "kids" played this venue because they loved Byron. Byron is gone. The
tournament is on it's way out.


Bummer.


Otto





    
Date: 29 Apr 2007 19:44:46
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
"Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:_nUYh.15334$XU4.6304@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> ""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote in message
> news:XoydnYi6fvm4kqnbnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
>> snipped Randy's excellent defense of the Byron classic>
>
>
>
> The course(s) appears to be in less than optimum shape.
>
> The purse is too small.
>
> The Fedex cup points are too small.
>
> Byron is dead.
>
>
>
> You wanna bring out ALL the big boys?
>
>
>
> Kill the mold on the greens and provide optimum playing conditions.
>
> A purse bigger than 8 million.
>
> 27,500 Fedex cup points or more.
>
> Bring back Byron or one of his friends.
>
>
>
> The "kids" played this venue because they loved Byron. Byron is gone. The
> tournament is on it's way out.
>
>
> Bummer.
>
>
> Otto

In fairness, this course is usually in pristine condition for the tournament
each year. Among the best on TOUR. Not sure exactly what happened to the
greens this year. But it's not the first time it's happened to a TOUR
venue. They just do the best they can with what they have.

Randy




  
Date: 28 Apr 2007 23:26:17
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: What determines where the big boys play?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:15:28 -0000, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:


>> (And why are they playing on a course with such
>> awful looking greens? According to Feherty and the others at least that bad
>> grass really is effecting the play, not just cosmetically bad. If places
>> like Chicago and Green Bay can do a total turf transplant to have a nice
>> sold and green football field in February, why can't they produce greens
>> that worthy of the PGA tour in Dallas in April?)
>
>I don't know what the hell happened to their greens. I play courses
>with bent grass greens in this area on a fairly regular basis and
>none of them are having this trouble. I really just couldn't tell
>you.
>
>TPC Las Colinas really is a pretty mediocre course for a Tour
>stop, though. You are absolutely right about that.
>
>I think next year's field for that event will be interesting to
>monitor. I suspect it won't be nearly as strong.

They've hired Weibring to redo the course before next year, and aren't
going to use Cottonwood any more (unless they have to because of
rain). The feeling is that the pros would rather play the tournament
on only one course. A lot of push is being given to the top pros to
attend.

I'm sure that they will fix those greens. We haven't had any problems
with our bent, and we're just 20 miles north.
___,
\o