| |
Main
Date: 27 Mar 2007 14:30:35
From: TheGolfersWife
Subject: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
We were stunned to hear one of the TV commentators covering the Dural
tournament yesterday say that most of the Australian pros currently on
the PGA and Nationwide tours regard Greg Norman as their idol - and
that he is without doubt the greatest Australian golfer ever. This
broadcaster threw in the names of David Graham and Bruce Devlin for
good measure.
Do Americans who profess to follow the game closely, and especially
its history, ignore the facts? Or does their CV only cover the last
20 years?
Peter Thomson is still regarded as the greatest Australian
professional golfer in terms of tour wins. His bio can be seen at
http://golf.about.com/od/golfers/p/peter_thomson.htm
Peter's most prestigious major wins were in the era just prior to
Palmer and Nicklaus, priily the 1950s thru 1960s. He won the
British Open Championship 5 times, and is the only player of the 20th
century to have won 3 consecutive Open titles. He is still regarded
as having been one of the finest links golfers in the world.
Unfortunately the then USPGA was very protective of its US pro golfers
on the fledgling PGA tour by placing near-impossible restrictions on
overseas players who wished to compete in the USA. Peter Thomson was
one of them (along with another Australian pro. Kel Nagle - who
incidentally was beaten in a play-off for the US Open in 1965 but
finished in the top 10 a few years later).
His bio may be seen at
http://www.sporting-heroes.net/golf-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=523
We are not Australians, but one of us has had the pleasure of being
drawn to play with both of these wonderful Australian golfers on a
number of occaions - in the days when the gap between professionals
and amateurs was not as wide as it is today.
It is disappointing to hear comments that indicate that Americans in
positions of influence are so ignorant of former top-class golfers
from other countries.
I have never heard mention of the inimitable Bobby Locke either in the
US Press or by TV commentators covering the PGA tour. Perhaps they
would rather forget the shabby treatment meted out to Locke by the US
PGA at the time. This is what the free Internet encyclopedia has to
say :
"In 1948, he [Locke] won the Chicago Victory National by 16 strokes,
which, as of 2006, remains a PGA Tour record for gin of victory.
The following year, Locke was banned from the tour because of a
dispute over playing commitments. The ban was lifted in 1951, but
Locke chose not to return to play in the United States. Despite (or
perhaps because of) his success, many American players disliked Locke,
though not for anything Locke did. They simply resented a foreign
player arriving on tour and "raiding" the prize money, as the highly
skilled Locke often did."
We have often thought this was the reason Peter Thomson did not
persevere with the officials controlling the US PGA tour. Who can
blame him?
The Golfer's Wife
"For as many men, there are as many opinions." - Seneca
|
|
| |
Date: 29 Mar 2007 00:33:02
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
On Tue, 27 2007 14:30:35 +1200, TheGolfersWife < > wrote:
>Do Americans who profess to follow the game closely, and especially
>its history, ignore the facts? Or does their CV only cover the last
>20 years?
I would be very surprised if most people around the world aren't more
likely to pick as "the best ever" those who they actually followed. In
any field.
And I bet Australians also put Norman as "the best ever".
|
| | |
Date: 30 Mar 2007 11:58:33
From: TheGolfersWife
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
On Thu, 29 2007 00:33:02 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 2007 14:30:35 +1200, TheGolfersWife <> wrote:
>
>>Do Americans who profess to follow the game closely, and especially
>>its history, ignore the facts? Or does their CV only cover the last
>>20 years?
>
>I would be very surprised if most people around the world aren't more
>likely to pick as "the best ever" those who they actually followed. In
>any field.
>
>And I bet Australians also put Norman as "the best ever".
Oh yes, they certainly do. It was just a tad irritating that
supposedly well-informed sports broadcasters take it upon themselves
to quote Australians and then add their own opinion.
Peter Thomson was probably one of the world's best golfers in the two
decades he played internationally. He did not rate the US courses as
anything like as true to golf as the British and Irish (or Australian)
ones. He won tournaments in which Gary Player and Arnold Palmer
competed and was very successful on the USPGA Seniors tour.
Peter Thomson was not showy, nor did he exhibit behaviour that would
put him in the celebrity class. Norman certainly did, and he had
great appeal to American galleries! Not so popular at home though!
The Golfer's Wife
"For as many men, there are as many opinions." - Seneca
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Mar 2007 00:37:50
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
TheGolfersWife wrote:
> Norman certainly did, and he had
> great appeal to American galleries! Not so popular at home though!
I think you're wrong. Norman is a sometimes controversial and
opinionated character, but he has always been popular in Australia for
his golf. People still come especially to see him play in the few
tournaments he now enters, in much the same way as they still turned up
to see Palmer and Nicklaus when they were well past their prime. The
number of times Norman still gets on golf magazine covers here is an
indication of his popularity and selling power.
Norman was a good supporter of Australian golf but for many that wasn't
enough. He only had to miss one Australian Open (e.g. one year for
"American Thanksgiving") and us parochial Australians would start
jumping on his back, accusing him of "deserting" local golf and the
system that gave him his start.
There was also a lot of local support for Norman in his fracas with Tim
Finchem over the idea of a World Golf circuit. Now that that idea has
become a pseudonym for "Fine, but let's have all the events in the USA",
Norman's popularity hasn't diminished here. Most Australian golf fans
(in fact probably most non-US golf fans generally) are not keen on total
US domination in professional golf administration. Norman still gets
kudos here for what he tried to achieve.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 13:33:17
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
On 26, 10:30 pm, TheGolfersWife < > wrote:
> Peter Thomson is still regarded as the greatest Australian
> professional golfer in terms of tour wins. His bio can be seen athttp://golf.about.com/od/golfers/p/peter_thomson.htm
>
Was Thomson ever considered the world's best player?
Norman sure was.
Peter Thomson was the 1950's version of Colin Montgomerie or Jumbo
Ozaki.
A Lamb Killer. He racked up 3 straight British Open wins in an era
when not many Americans competed. He did win it in 1965, however, so
he was obviously an accomplished player. But he ain't no Greg
Norman. You could even say that Thomson was lucky that he played (or
at least won) after Hogan and before Palmer and Nicklaus.
|
| | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 23:28:16
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
annika1980 wrote:
> You could even say that Thomson was lucky that he played (or
> at least won) after Hogan and before Palmer and Nicklaus.
Thomson beat Palmer and Nicklaus on a number of occasions. In his 1965
Open Championship win, Thomson beat both easily.
His competition in the '50s Open Championships were by no means "lambs",
unless you are happy to apply that tag to greats like Jimmy Deet,
Roberto de Vincenzo, Tony Lema, Bobby Locke and Gary Player.
Thomson only ever played in the USA for one season (1956), with one win.
He hated the US courses used on tour at the time, considering they were
sub-standard compared to Europe. In the 1970s he 'pioneered' playing in
Japan.
An indication of how good he was was his eventual return to the USA for
the Seniors Tour. He set a record of 9 wins in one season in 1985, since
matched only by Hale Irwin.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Mar 2007 14:55:35
From: TheGolfersWife
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
On Wed, 28 2007 23:28:16 GMT, Colin Wilson
<publish@removethis.kyneton.net.au > wrote:
>annika1980 wrote:
>
>> You could even say that Thomson was lucky that he played (or
>> at least won) after Hogan and before Palmer and Nicklaus.
>
>Thomson beat Palmer and Nicklaus on a number of occasions. In his 1965
>Open Championship win, Thomson beat both easily.
>
>His competition in the '50s Open Championships were by no means "lambs",
>unless you are happy to apply that tag to greats like Jimmy Deet,
>Roberto de Vincenzo, Tony Lema, Bobby Locke and Gary Player.
>
>Thomson only ever played in the USA for one season (1956), with one win.
>He hated the US courses used on tour at the time, considering they were
>sub-standard compared to Europe. In the 1970s he 'pioneered' playing in
>Japan.
>
>An indication of how good he was was his eventual return to the USA for
>the Seniors Tour. He set a record of 9 wins in one season in 1985, since
>matched only by Hale Irwin.
And don't you just love the following (true) story. A bunch of
American pro golfers criticized Bobby Locke 's "weak left hand" when
he won a number of tour events in the only year he played that tour.
Locke's reply has often been quoted: "I'm not worried about my left
hand, I take the cheques with my right". Right-on Bobby!
The Golfer's Wife
"For as many men, there are as many opinions." - Seneca
|
| |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 04:44:08
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
TheGolfersWife wrote:
> We were stunned to hear one of the TV commentators covering the Dural
> tournament yesterday say that most of the Australian pros currently on
> the PGA and Nationwide tours regard Greg Norman as their idol - and
> that he is without doubt the greatest Australian golfer ever. This
> broadcaster threw in the names of David Graham and Bruce Devlin for
> good measure.
>
> Do Americans who profess to follow the game closely, and especially
> its history, ignore the facts? Or does their CV only cover the last
> 20 years?
For what it's worth, probably most Australians do regard Greg Norman as
the greatest Australian golfer of all time. I happen to think in terms
of majors and tour wins it's actually Karrie Webb, but like all
opinions, it's only mine. What Thomson gains in terms of five majors,
Norman gains in terms of USPGA Tour wins, long-time World No. 1 ranking,
international wins and overwhelming golf influence.
FWIW, here's the 20 Greatest Australian players of all time, as voted by
a panel of 50 Australian experts (past and present pro golfers, media
analysts, journalists, golf administrators, industry figures) in Golf
Australia magazine, ch 2007. Remember, a lot of this ranking is based
on performance in major Australian events (e.g. multiple Australian Open
wins) and in Europe, not just the USPGA Tour and the Majors.
1. Greg Norman
2. Peter Thomson
3. David Graham
4. Kel Nagle
5. Norman von Nida
6. Karrie Webb
7. Steve Elkington
8. Jim Ferrier
9. Ian Baker-Finch
10. Wayne Grady
11. Bruce Crampton
12. Graham sh
13. Ossie Pickworth
14. Robert Allenby
15. Jan Stephenson
16. Bruce Devlin
17. Geoff Ogilvy
18. Stuart Appleby
19. Adam Scott
20. Craig Parry
Next 10:
21. Jack Newton
22. Peter Senior
23. Ivo Whitton
24. Joe Kirkwood
25. Billy Dunk
26. Rodger Davis
27. Eric Cremin
28. Bob Shearer
29. Peter Lonard
30. Aaron Baddeley
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 12:36:55
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
I'm not Australian, so I won't weigh in on who's the best Aussie to play.
But I will say this. Most people -- golfers or those in any other area of
life -- tend to have short memories.
It's especially true of young people, and you can't really blame them.
After all, they haven't been around long enough to remember much. And while
they can READ ABOUT things that came before, that doesn't leave as lasting
an impression as it would if they'd been around to witness it themselves.
This short memory syndrome was never more evident to me than around 1980
when a listener to my radio station once said to me, "Really? You mean Paul
McCartney was in a band before Wings?"
If you ever watch any of those countdown shows that count down the top 10
(or top 100) ANYTHINGS, there's always a bias toward the more recent things.
Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that people just weren't around to fully
appreciate the happenings of many years ago, and so many of these countdown
shows are written by younger people who seem unable to confirm that anything
in the world happened unless they saw it on their iPod.
Randy
"Colin Wilson" <publish@removethis.kyneton.net.au > wrote in message
news:si1Oh.2258$M.644@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> TheGolfersWife wrote:
>
>> We were stunned to hear one of the TV commentators covering the Dural
>> tournament yesterday say that most of the Australian pros currently on
>> the PGA and Nationwide tours regard Greg Norman as their idol - and
>> that he is without doubt the greatest Australian golfer ever. This
>> broadcaster threw in the names of David Graham and Bruce Devlin for
>> good measure. Do Americans who profess to follow the game closely, and
>> especially
>> its history, ignore the facts? Or does their CV only cover the last
>> 20 years?
>
> For what it's worth, probably most Australians do regard Greg Norman as
> the greatest Australian golfer of all time. I happen to think in terms of
> majors and tour wins it's actually Karrie Webb, but like all opinions,
> it's only mine. What Thomson gains in terms of five majors, Norman gains
> in terms of USPGA Tour wins, long-time World No. 1 ranking, international
> wins and overwhelming golf influence.
>
> FWIW, here's the 20 Greatest Australian players of all time, as voted by a
> panel of 50 Australian experts (past and present pro golfers, media
> analysts, journalists, golf administrators, industry figures) in Golf
> Australia magazine, ch 2007. Remember, a lot of this ranking is based
> on performance in major Australian events (e.g. multiple Australian Open
> wins) and in Europe, not just the USPGA Tour and the Majors.
>
> 1. Greg Norman
> 2. Peter Thomson
> 3. David Graham
> 4. Kel Nagle
> 5. Norman von Nida
> 6. Karrie Webb
> 7. Steve Elkington
> 8. Jim Ferrier
> 9. Ian Baker-Finch
> 10. Wayne Grady
> 11. Bruce Crampton
> 12. Graham sh
> 13. Ossie Pickworth
> 14. Robert Allenby
> 15. Jan Stephenson
> 16. Bruce Devlin
> 17. Geoff Ogilvy
> 18. Stuart Appleby
> 19. Adam Scott
> 20. Craig Parry
>
> Next 10:
> 21. Jack Newton
> 22. Peter Senior
> 23. Ivo Whitton
> 24. Joe Kirkwood
> 25. Billy Dunk
> 26. Rodger Davis
> 27. Eric Cremin
> 28. Bob Shearer
> 29. Peter Lonard
> 30. Aaron Baddeley
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 09:37:33
From: Loudon Briggs
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
Colin Wilson <publish@removethis.kyneton.net.au > wrote:
>TheGolfersWife wrote:
>
>> We were stunned to hear one of the TV commentators covering the Dural
>> tournament yesterday say that most of the Australian pros currently on
>> the PGA and Nationwide tours regard Greg Norman as their idol - and
>> that he is without doubt the greatest Australian golfer ever.
(CLIP)
>
>For what it's worth, probably most Australians do regard Greg Norman as
>the greatest Australian golfer of all time. I happen to think in terms
>of majors and tour wins it's actually Karrie Webb,.
(Good choice)
>
>FWIW, here's the 20 Greatest Australian players of all time, as voted by
>a panel of 50 Australian experts (past and present pro golfers, media
>analysts, journalists, golf administrators, industry figures) in Golf
>Australia magazine, ch 2007. Remember, a lot of this ranking is based
>on performance in major Australian events (e.g. multiple Australian Open
>wins) and in Europe, not just the USPGA Tour and the Majors.
>
>1. Greg Norman
>2. Peter Thomson
>3. David Graham
>4. Kel Nagle
>5. Norman von Nida
>6. Karrie Webb
>7. Steve Elkington
>8. Jim Ferrier
>9. Ian Baker-Finch
>10. Wayne Grady
>11. Bruce Crampton
>12. Graham sh
>13. Ossie Pickworth
>14. Robert Allenby
>15. Jan Stephenson
>16. Bruce Devlin
>17. Geoff Ogilvy
>18. Stuart Appleby
>19. Adam Scott
>20. Craig Parry
>
>Next 10:
>21. Jack Newton
>22. Peter Senior
>23. Ivo Whitton
>24. Joe Kirkwood (my choice for #1... NONE of the others could do with a golf club and ball what
this man could do. :} )
>25. Billy Dunk
>26. Rodger Davis
>27. Eric Cremin
>28. Bob Shearer
>29. Peter Lonard
>30. Aaron Baddeley
--
Loudon R. Briggs larebe@bbz.net Phoenix, AZ
"How Can You Not Like A Game Where It's Okay To
Get Teed Off, Tote A Six-Iron, Shoot Birdies,
and If You're Under Par It's A Great Day!"
(from "Frank & Ernest" by Bob Thaves -- used with permission)
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 22:18:08
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
Loudon Briggs wrote:
>> 1. Greg Norman
>> 2. Peter Thomson
>> 3. David Graham
>> 4. Kel Nagle
>> 5. Norman von Nida
>> 6. Karrie Webb
>> 7. Steve Elkington
>> 8. Jim Ferrier
>> 9. Ian Baker-Finch
>> 10. Wayne Grady
>> 11. Bruce Crampton
>> 12. Graham sh
>> 13. Ossie Pickworth
>> 14. Robert Allenby
>> 15. Jan Stephenson
>> 16. Bruce Devlin
>> 17. Geoff Ogilvy
>> 18. Stuart Appleby
>> 19. Adam Scott
>> 20. Craig Parry
>> 24. Joe Kirkwood
> (my choice for #1... NONE of the others could do with a golf club and ball what
> this man could do. :} )
I think Warren's point about visibility creating recognition is a good
one. Time also dims achievements and record ... Kirkwood's achievements
make wonderful reading.
While none of them have won a major, I think there'd be a good case to
put Joe higher than some of the recent "visible" golfers like Allenby,
Appleby and Scott. Kirkwood won the 1920 Australian Open, 1920 NZ Open
and 1920 NZPGA, *13* USPGA Tour events and a couple in England, a record
well above the modern three. Scott hasn't yet won a professional event
in Australia.
Kirkwood beat his age on a par-72 course at the age of 63! And I wonder
if Allenby, Appleby and Scott have ever teed off from the top of an
elephant? :-)
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 11:18:34
From: Loudon Briggs
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
Colin Wilson <publish@removethis.kyneton.net.au > wrote:
>Loudon Briggs wrote:
(CLIP)
>
>>> 24. Joe Kirkwood
>
>> (my choice for #1... NONE of the others could do with a golf club and ball what
>> this man could do. :} )
>
(CLIP)
>
And I wonder
>if Allenby, Appleby and Scott have ever teed off from the top of an
>elephant? :-)
Until the very end, I wondered if you had missed my point. Many of the
experts from the old days, were of the opinion that Kirkwood could've
been one of the really great golfers if he had put his efforts into
playing straight, as opposed to his "trick shot" routines.
--
Loudon R. Briggs larebe@bbz.net Phoenix, AZ
"How Can You Not Like A Game Where It's Okay To
Get Teed Off, Tote A Six-Iron, Shoot Birdies,
and If You're Under Par It's A Great Day!"
(from "Frank & Ernest" by Bob Thaves -- used with permission)
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Mar 2007 23:10:06
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
Loudon Briggs wrote:
> Until the very end, I wondered if you had missed my point. Many of the
> experts from the old days, were of the opinion that Kirkwood could've
> been one of the really great golfers if he had put his efforts into
> playing straight, as opposed to his "trick shot" routines.
No, I got your point, especially about what he could do with a golf club
and ball. Maybe he just really liked the variety of the "travelling golf
circus" over spending all his time in tournaments.
I read an article a while ago about Kirkwood's travels. He went to some
awfully out of the way places in Asia in the 30s, particularly China.
There is a story, which has probably been greatly embellished over time,
about how they virtually stopped the hostilities and cleared the bodies
from the Japan/China conflict in 1938 to watch Kirkwood hit golf balls.
BTW, did you know the trophy for winning the Australian PGA Championship
is called the Kirkwood Cup? That is at least some recognition that he
could also play *very serious* golf.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | |
Date: 27 Mar 2007 08:30:54
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: US TV commentators on Aussie golfers
|
>
> For what it's worth, probably most Australians do regard Greg Norman as
> the greatest Australian golfer of all time. I happen to think in terms of
> majors and tour wins it's actually Karrie Webb, but like all opinions,
> it's only mine. What Thomson gains in terms of five majors, Norman gains
> in terms of USPGA Tour wins, long-time World No. 1 ranking, international
> wins and overwhelming golf influence.
>
Yes, this points out something definitely true in life in the US --
visibility is what creates recognition, and Norman was both more recent and
more visible than Thompson. Don't draw too many conclusions from the US TV
coverage though. As has been pointed out by others here TV here is about
getting more viewers so you can sell advertising, and to do that you have to
appeal to people who aren't regular golfers. Norman became visible as a
celebrity here -- crowds turn out to see him whether he's playing well or
not. He's visible to the general public for his celebrity lifestyle and
advertisements as much as his accomplishments on the course. I agree about
Karrie Webb, though she had the misfortune to share the stage with Annika,
who also became enormously visible and popular here. (Again, Sorrenstam's
face appears constantly in the media because of her advertising spots while
Webb is a lot less visible except to serious fans of the LPGA).
PS: Thanks for the perspective.
--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
|
|
