Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

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Date: 20 Sep 2006 08:43:06
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:

Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
the next?

I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.

Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.
--

jvdp
Myke Plough-in-skee is not mentioned in this thread.
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com/files/OH_2006_make_a_putt.avi
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 21 Sep 2006 02:06:46
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

William A. T. Clark wrote:

> Yes, links courses have deep rough and gorse, so no one wastes much time
> looking for balls - you can either see it and play it, or you can't so
> just forget about it. There are more caddies out there than just at rich
> clubs, but even so, it is walking that also cuts down on time. Circling
> the wagons in a golf cart so that two golfers can play shots from
> opposite sides of the fairway is really time consuming. I think that
> carts also engender a "slower" mentality to playing. Also remember that
> much golf in many parts of the US is played in blazing heat, so there is
> a physical limitation on how quickly you move that is generally not a
> factor in the UK.
> >

I've been a member of golf clubs in 6 counties and have played league
golf in 4 of them, so I got to play most of the courses in each county
and I've never come across a club that had caddies.

>From reading RSG, the use of provisionals seems more widespread here.
Perhaps we are more aware of the rules - I don't know. I've read many
posts about the best way to 'simulate' the penalty of stroke and
distance when a ball is lost, rather than having to walk back. In all
the golf I play, I doubt I see someone have to walk back to the tee
more than once or twice a season. I can't believe that US courses are
designed so differently that there are many more occasions where a ball
is lost unexpectedly.
We'd normally hit a provisional if we there's any doubt that a ball
will be found easily. If nothing else, it can give you an indication of
the distance the first ball travelled.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 17:09:17
From: Tighthead
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

Tex wrote:
> John van der Pflum wrote:
> > For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
> >
> > Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> > suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> > tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> > the next?
> >
> > I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> > fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> > seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.
>
> One design feature (or maybe natural in the UK) is that your ball is
> either gone or in play...there are rare instances when you "search" for
> it. This helps alot. But, the biggest help is being a fast player.
> Realizing that you are probably going to miss a 30 ft putt, so don't
> bother to read it from both sides, just strike it on your line with
> good speed, if it goes it great, if not, tap in the 2 footer and move
> on.
>
The first time I played Bandon, I thought that the Rules make much more
sense on a links course, as it is much harder to lose a ball. Playing
a tight, tree lined course with thick undergrowth makes stroke and
distance seem pretty damn punitive.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 17:03:47
From:
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

Simon wrote:

> Links courses maybe open, but the rough is probably a lot higher!
> Especially in the summer. I'd guess that links courses make up less
> than 10% of the golf courses in the UK. Also, when was the last time
> you ever saw a caddy in the UK? Maybe at some of the famous rich
> courses like Wentworth or Sunningdale, but not normal clubs.
>
> >From what I've read about golf in the US, a slow pace of play seems
> almost inevitable. Driving carts on cart paths and stopping for food
> and drinks on the way would make me feel that I'm out for a leisurely
> day out, rather than playing a sport.
>
> I've had many arguments before on RSG about things like carts and GPS
> systems, but I've always thought that these things take away from the
> basic idea that golf is a game where you hit the ball, walk after it,
> hit it again, and repeat until you end up in the bar.
> When you have been brought up with the idea of playing quickly and
> judging your shots and lining up your putts quickly, then that becomes
> the most effective way for you to play. If I was to suddenly take twice
> as long over my shots, I think I'd be just as bad as a slow player that
> now had to take half his normal time.

I recently played at a "cart mandatory" course on a day that they were
mandating a 90 degreee rule. Christ, what a waste of time. But at
least that is better than the "cart path only" rule which seems
designed to ensure you hit to the opposite side of the fairway. Then
you end up walking nearly the whole length of the course, and picking
out 4 clubs that are likely to be needed, only to find that the ball is
sitting up or down way more than expected - so you either go back to
the cart (no way!) or play the wrong club with unfortunate results.
And we pay for this luxury of carts!

And last fall I got to play a few rounds in Arizona (woohoo! - what an
excellent place). Playing in Sedona, I had my first experience with a
GPS-enabled cart. Gaak. I spend the whole damned year staring at
screens at work - the LAST thing I want to do while golfing is to look
at some stupid representation of the (gorgeous) course that I'm
actually at, with all the yardages to the bunkers, the pin, the water,
the blahblahblah shown on the screen. AND it ends up wasting even more
time. For the first 4 holes I was reading everything ("Let's see, it's
72 yds to that bunker, and 99 yds to the pond, and 217 to the pin - so
I shouldn't hit an L wedge towards the bunker...."). A whole lot of
information, much of which is useless. And it ALL takes away from
actually living in the moment and enjoying where you are.

But back to the point - Carts are ubiquitous over here, and I've never
played as fast in a cart as I have walking. Maybe I just need more
practice.

dh

Date: 20 Sep 2006 14:26:33
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

William A. T. Clark wrote:
> In article <lld2h2drvf8eb18lj06o9ckt89vk4g8kkh@4ax.com>,
> John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com> wrote:
>
> > For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
> >
> > Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> > suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> > tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> > the next?
> >
> > I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> > fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> > seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.
> >
> > Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.
>
> I think there are two factors that encourage faster play in the UK;
> links courses and caddies. It seems much easier to follow a ball on a
> links course, as wide open as they are, and using caddies (especially
> those that go ahead off the tee) greatly reduces the absurd agonizing
> about distance to the pin, bunker, etc., that seems to be de riguer now
> here in the US. The links courses definitely encourage walking, since
> they are open and flat, and at a good brisk pace. Speed is often
> necessary anyway in order to avoid frostbite.;-)
>
> William Clark

Links courses maybe open, but the rough is probably a lot higher!
Especially in the summer. I'd guess that links courses make up less
than 10% of the golf courses in the UK. Also, when was the last time
you ever saw a caddy in the UK? Maybe at some of the famous rich
courses like Wentworth or Sunningdale, but not normal clubs.

>From what I've read about golf in the US, a slow pace of play seems
almost inevitable. Driving carts on cart paths and stopping for food
and drinks on the way would make me feel that I'm out for a leisurely
day out, rather than playing a sport.

I've had many arguments before on RSG about things like carts and GPS
systems, but I've always thought that these things take away from the
basic idea that golf is a game where you hit the ball, walk after it,
hit it again, and repeat until you end up in the bar.
When you have been brought up with the idea of playing quickly and
judging your shots and lining up your putts quickly, then that becomes
the most effective way for you to play. If I was to suddenly take twice
as long over my shots, I think I'd be just as bad as a slow player that
now had to take half his normal time.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 20:22:47
From: William A. T. Clark
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

In article <1158787593.915180.157540@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com > wrote:

> William A. T. Clark wrote:
> > In article <lld2h2drvf8eb18lj06o9ckt89vk4g8kkh@4ax.com>,
> > John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com> wrote:
> >
> > > For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
> > >
> > > Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> > > suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> > > tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> > > the next?
> > >
> > > I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> > > fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> > > seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.
> > >
> > > Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.
> >
> > I think there are two factors that encourage faster play in the UK;
> > links courses and caddies. It seems much easier to follow a ball on a
> > links course, as wide open as they are, and using caddies (especially
> > those that go ahead off the tee) greatly reduces the absurd agonizing
> > about distance to the pin, bunker, etc., that seems to be de riguer now
> > here in the US. The links courses definitely encourage walking, since
> > they are open and flat, and at a good brisk pace. Speed is often
> > necessary anyway in order to avoid frostbite.;-)
> >
> > William Clark
>
> Links courses maybe open, but the rough is probably a lot higher!
> Especially in the summer. I'd guess that links courses make up less
> than 10% of the golf courses in the UK. Also, when was the last time
> you ever saw a caddy in the UK? Maybe at some of the famous rich
> courses like Wentworth or Sunningdale, but not normal clubs.

Yes, links courses have deep rough and gorse, so no one wastes much time
looking for balls - you can either see it and play it, or you can't so
just forget about it. There are more caddies out there than just at rich
clubs, but even so, it is walking that also cuts down on time. Circling
the wagons in a golf cart so that two golfers can play shots from
opposite sides of the fairway is really time consuming. I think that
carts also engender a "slower" mentality to playing. Also remember that
much golf in many parts of the US is played in blazing heat, so there is
a physical limitation on how quickly you move that is generally not a
factor in the UK.
>
> >From what I've read about golf in the US, a slow pace of play seems
> almost inevitable. Driving carts on cart paths and stopping for food
> and drinks on the way would make me feel that I'm out for a leisurely
> day out, rather than playing a sport.
>
> I've had many arguments before on RSG about things like carts and GPS
> systems, but I've always thought that these things take away from the
> basic idea that golf is a game where you hit the ball, walk after it,
> hit it again, and repeat until you end up in the bar.

Agreed - see my point above about a different, and slower, playing
atmosphere they create. No one plays golf over here to get a brisk walk
in the fresh sea air. I think that is one of the joys of UK golf.

> When you have been brought up with the idea of playing quickly and
> judging your shots and lining up your putts quickly, then that becomes
> the most effective way for you to play. If I was to suddenly take twice
> as long over my shots, I think I'd be just as bad as a slow player that
> now had to take half his normal time.

Yes, it doesn't make them any better players, they just have this long
sequence of postures and gyrations to go through that they have learned
from the PGA pros on TV. Unfortunately they have not also learned to
swing like the pros.

William Clark

Date: 20 Sep 2006 20:16:11
From: greenkeeper
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

In message <1158778493.083944.149250@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >,
zumafan <mgeorg@gmail.com > writes
>
>greenkeeper wrote:
>> In message <1158774435.591909.227720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> zumafan <mgeorg@gmail.com> writes
>> >
>> >greenkeeper wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/67209902
>> >> --
>> >> alan
>> >
>> >Dornoch #6?
>> >
>> >http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/64551905
>> >
>> >Is this also Dornoch? Maybe looking back towards 11?
>> >
>> >http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/58354110
>> >
>>
>>
>> Yes, guilty as charged on both counts.
>
>Very nice....what were the other courses that looked like they had
>gorse but were up on a hillside?
>
Like this one?

http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/60432238

That is Jedburgh where I work.
--
alan

Date: 20 Sep 2006 11:54:53
From: zumafan
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

greenkeeper wrote:
> In message <1158774435.591909.227720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> zumafan <mgeorg@gmail.com> writes
> >
> >greenkeeper wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/67209902
> >> --
> >> alan
> >
> >Dornoch #6?
> >
> >http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/64551905
> >
> >Is this also Dornoch? Maybe looking back towards 11?
> >
> >http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/58354110
> >
>
>
> Yes, guilty as charged on both counts.

Very nice....what were the other courses that looked like they had
gorse but were up on a hillside?

Date: 20 Sep 2006 14:20:51
From: William A. T. Clark
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

In article <lld2h2drvf8eb18lj06o9ckt89vk4g8kkh@4ax.com >,
John van der Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote:

> For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
> Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> the next?
>
> I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.
>
> Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.

I think there are two factors that encourage faster play in the UK;
links courses and caddies. It seems much easier to follow a ball on a
links course, as wide open as they are, and using caddies (especially
those that go ahead off the tee) greatly reduces the absurd agonizing
about distance to the pin, bunker, etc., that seems to be de riguer now
here in the US. The links courses definitely encourage walking, since
they are open and flat, and at a good brisk pace. Speed is often
necessary anyway in order to avoid frostbite.;-)

William Clark

Date: 20 Sep 2006 19:02:45
From: greenkeeper
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

In message <1158774435.591909.227720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
zumafan <mgeorg@gmail.com > writes
>
>greenkeeper wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/67209902
>> --
>> alan
>
>Dornoch #6?
>
>http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/64551905
>
>Is this also Dornoch? Maybe looking back towards 11?
>
>http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/58354110
>

Yes, guilty as charged on both counts.
--
alan

Date: 20 Sep 2006 10:47:15
From: zumafan
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

greenkeeper wrote:

>
> http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/67209902
> --
> alan

Dornoch #6?

http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/64551905

Is this also Dornoch? Maybe looking back towards 11?

http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/58354110

Date: 20 Sep 2006 18:11:00
From: greenkeeper
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

In message <lld2h2drvf8eb18lj06o9ckt89vk4g8kkh@4ax.com >, John van der
Pflum <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > writes
>For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
>Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
>suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
>tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
>the next?
>
>I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
>fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
>seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.
>
>Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.

Less walking between green and tee and fewer carts and all they
represent. I took (will I be chastised for this?) Hammer and y to
Dunbar, 150 years old this year, as my guests and they were surprised to
walk round in 2.45ish. Club golf is slowing but over 4 hrs is very
uncommon. I am also a member at Eyemouth and we play in 3 balls for
competitions and usually take between 2.45 and 3.15.

http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/67209902
--
alan

Date: 20 Sep 2006 12:00:34
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

> For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
> Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> the next?
>
I haven't played in the UK, but I've played down under, on US style courses,
mainly playing fast rounds.
Course design can make it difficult to play a quick round (I well understand
the problem of trying to play even a 4 hour round on some stretched out real
estate development with tees and greens), but mainly it's the habits of the
players. I think there are several factors in the US which contribute to
the development of bad habits:

Playing in carts -- it's not that people can't play fast in carts, but it's
easy to develop some bad habits. In particular most people would rather
wait sitting down, and in a cart you can sit down rather than getting ready
to play your shot. Cart play is often "hurry up and wait", so people kill
time sitting, talking, and worst of all talking on phones when they should
be getting ready to play. People in carts often don't pay as much attention
to exactly where their shots went in part because they usually can't follow
that line in the cart, but also because of a feeling that it will be easy to
use the cart to find the ball. Often those searches take more time than
they think.

Eating and drinking on the course -- I'll bet those UK courses where play
is fast don't have a bar on wheels. Aside from the effect of alcohol
consumption on speed and quality of play :-), it takes time to buy the stuff
and time to eat and drink it. Then often you've got to get rid of it. All
that stuff adds up. My impression of play in the UK and on more traditional
courses in the US is you play your round, maybe you get something at the
turn, then retire to the bar to settle the bets and have that long
conversation.

Pro wannabe-itis. Probably the worst offender in contributing to bad habits
is that we have so many occasional golfers who think that by emulating what
they see on TV they can play like the pros. Instruction articles don't help
here. So, we have people going through elaborate pre-shot rituals,
plumbobbing 3 footers for 7, tossing grass in the air before lining up 200
yard 3 wood, and waiting for the green to clear from 280 out because this
might be the time they actually got it solid. My impression of golf in the
rest of the world is that more of the play comes from regular players who
know their limitations and just enjoy playing the game.

Stroke play -- not a bad habit developer, but it's worth noting that while
in the US almost all rounds are stroke play, elsewhere there is a lot of
matchplay, stableford, and other formats where people aren't agonizing over
every stroke.

--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery

Date: 20 Sep 2006 14:22:52
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

warren montgomery wrote:
> Pro wannabe-itis. Probably the worst offender in contributing to bad habits
> is that we have so many occasional golfers who think that by emulating what
> they see on TV they can play like the pros. Instruction articles don't help
> here. So, we have people going through elaborate pre-shot rituals,
> plumbobbing 3 footers for 7, tossing grass in the air before lining up 200
> yard 3 wood, and waiting for the green to clear from 280 out because this
> might be the time they actually got it solid. My impression of golf in the
> rest of the world is that more of the play comes from regular players who
> know their limitations and just enjoy playing the game.
When Nicklaus first appeared as a factor in major championships, play on
muni courses slowed considerably. Altho Jack played much faster later
on, his imitators didn't.

Henry

Date: 20 Sep 2006 07:59:31
From: Fairway
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

John van der Pflum wrote:
> For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
> Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> the next?

You=B4ll often find some distance from green to tee in Europe,
especially on a new course, and it=B4s usual for a round to take around
4 hours. In my experience the Scots are fastest. The never take a warm
up swing or anything like that, they just walk briskly to the ball and
hit it quickly, the short balls with bump and run, and they never spend
much time on the greens. Two and a half hour is common there. I once
played with my son in Scotland, ahead of us were two elderly ladies -
they disappeared like a lightning and then waited for us on the last
green for a nice little chat. F

Date: 20 Sep 2006 07:11:28
From: RockPile
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

Date: 20 Sep 2006 06:20:43
From: zumafan
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

John van der Pflum wrote:
> For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
> Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> the next?
>
> I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.

It's a combination of things but mostly, it's the EXPECTATION that a
round will last less than 4 hours and it damn well better. Besides that
though:

There's way less time looking for lost balls on the courses we played
in Scotland. It's either where you expect it, in the wispy grass, or in
the gorse. If it's in the gorse you don't want to find it! At Crail
they had some pretty tall grass, but they also had striped stakes in
the middle of it so you could get a landk as to where your ball
landed. Might be different on the inland courses.

Our rounds in Scotland were more like in the 3:30 to 4:00 hour range,
not 3:00.

We were held up on the 1st 9 holes Saturday. We moved pretty well on
the back nine although it does take a while to get thru 14/15/16.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 06:11:29
From: Tex
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

John van der Pflum wrote:
> For those of you who have played on both sides of the pond:
>
> Is course design in the UK more suited to fast play than in the US? I
> suppose I am thinking more of walking distance between greens and
> tees. Is it a quick walk between the green of one hole and the tee of
> the next?
>
> I played RSG Ohio wtih Koenig, Thor, and k Georg. We're all pretty
> fast player -- of the four I'm likely the slowest. I have a hard time
> seeing how the four of us could get around a course in 3 hours.

One design feature (or maybe natural in the UK) is that your ball is
either gone or in play...there are rare instances when you "search" for
it. This helps alot. But, the biggest help is being a fast player.
Realizing that you are probably going to miss a 30 ft putt, so don't
bother to read it from both sides, just strike it on your line with
good speed, if it goes it great, if not, tap in the 2 footer and move
on.

> Maybe I just need to experience UK golf to see the difference.

Maybe, 2009 might make that happen...unless it still takes you 4 hours,
then you won't be playing much :)

Tex

Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:31:16
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

On 20 Sep 2006 06:11:29 -0700, "Tex" <ktexkoenig@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>Maybe, 2009 might make that happen...unless it still takes you 4 hours,
>then you won't be playing much :)
>
>Tex

:-) Maybe I'll just loop for a couple of pints as pay.
--

jvdp
Myke Plough-in-skee is not mentioned in this thread.
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com/files/OH_2006_make_a_putt.avi
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:04:22
From: Steve S
Subject: Re: Slow Play in US vs. UK (design of courses?)

"John van der Pflum" <jpflumjr@ughookugh.com > wrote in message
news:lld2h2drvf8eb18lj06o9ckt89vk4g8kkh@4ax.com...
> http://www.rsgcincinnati.com/files/OH_2006_make_a_putt.avi

OMG that's just shameless online self-aggrandizement.

It's like the Steelers buying commercial time on Cincinnati television
showing highlights of the last Super Bowl.