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Date: 15 Sep 2006 23:58:20
From: Tom
Subject: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew
a 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the
ground so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball
and the line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was
perpendicular with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still
correct. He wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
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Date: 17 Sep 2006 17:14:30
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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jeffc wrote:
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
> news:1158441523.823634.284750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> Actually it doesn't tell you much at all about the correct lie angle of
> >> the
> >> club. It could simply be that your son has adjusted his swing to hit
> >> that
> >> way. For example if his clubs are too upright, then he's just dipping
> >> the
> >> toe.
> >
> > Then that also invalidates the standard method of tape and a lie
> > board...
>
> No on the contrary, that method is still valid. Specifically because it
> discovers the angle of the clubhead at impact relative to the ground, which
> the "striped ball" method doesn't do.
But as has been stated... either test only captures that moment in
time. If the swing is different the next day, either test and resulting
adjustments are meaningless. I agree with Unc on tha one. Unless the
swing has some measure of consistency... it can't be measured.
>
> > But if the kid has groved the swing (without radical compensation) to
> > match the club... then it is correct... for that swing. Isn't that all
> > that matters?
>
> I wouldn't say so. But if he wants to continue swinging with a swing and
> clubs that are "off", it's fine.
If it's grooved and repeatable (and the compensation is not radical)...
it's not a problem. If you change the lie at this point... he has to
compensate to that. As Unc said, what ultimately matters is that the
ball consistently goes where the golfer expects it too. If it's not
broken, it could be rrisky to try and fix it.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 21:12:52
From: jeffc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1158538470.900837.199700@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> But as has been stated... either test only captures that moment in
> time.
At least the board test captures it correctly. The other doesn't.
> If the swing is different the next day, either test and resulting
> adjustments are meaningless.
Well if the swing is different tomorrow, then EVERYTHING is meaningless. No
club fitting can be done at all, and no lessons can be given. That's not
reasonable or acceptable, so... back to reality...
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Date: 17 Sep 2006 17:00:58
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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uncle k wrote:
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
>
> > What part of a "typical" lie adjustment don't you understand?
>
> >>Well I took it to mean that you think that it is not possible to set a
> club to exactly x.y degrees or that you think it is impossible to
> determine that you need x.y degrees or both. Your followup doesn't
> clear this up?
>
> > I'd say typical is a few degrees, +/-..... anything beyond that is
> > getting
> > atypical.
>
> >>How much is a few?
>
> That would be a somewhere between 2 and 4.... like about 3, give or take.
> But, I can't really commit right now.
I think that is way too much... more like +/- 1 degree...
But how about we let Dalecki weigh in on this. He builds clubs.
>
> ................................
> >>So it's not necessarily a good idea to make changes based on the
> results of one particular day. I'll conceed that. But what if you have
> results over a period of time that indicates the lie is too upright...
> would you consider altering the lie then... or just play 'em as is?
>
> Why, I'd have them adjusted, in that case, assuming my swing was perfect and
> the club was the culprit. But honestly, Dud, I care more about where my
> ball ends up than how it got there.
I guess if all your clubs were off by the same amount that would work.
You could simply aim a certain amount right or left to compensate. But
what if some were too flat and some too upright?
> I'm not doing the test unless you're
> willing to stripe the balls and set them up for me.
>
When will you arrive? :)
> >>I'll also agree that there is 2 ways to go... adjust the clubs to the
> swing or the swing to the club.
>
> It's JMHO, but I believe the vast majority of golfers would do well to find
> a swing which fits a standard lie, period. Aside from those who have a
> *physical* reason for tweaking lies, only a top tier player can realize any
> benefit from same, and even then, it might be too subtle to notice. Bending
> a club to compensate for a bad swing is just goofy.
I'm not proposing adjusting them to compensate for bad swings. I tend
to agree with you... that makes no sense. OTOH... if they don't fit,
they may be the cause of a goofy swing. If the lie is off and a guy
consistently hits the ball well right/left of where he is aiming... he
will find a way to compensatte for it. I'd venture that every tour
golfer and just about all top notch amateurs have their lies
checked/adjusted (even it they adjust them to standard). They aren't
trying to compensate for goofy swings. They are trying to eliminate
unnecessary variables.
> I feel the opposite
> about bending clubs to achieve optimum lofts.
Agreed. That is a good thing for about any golfer at any level.
> Even so, I've never done it,
> choosing rather to know the range of capabilities for each club, and using
> them accordingly. Hey, I'm lazy, and it's not a game of perfect.
>
I haven't done it either... not because I'm lazy, but because I would
need several hours help of a willing volunteer to determine what
adjustments were necessary. It's hard to find a willing assistant.
> > > This method sounds as valid to me as tape on the sole???
>
> > Which isn't very valid, either, except that it does protect the sole from
> > scratching, to some degree. So, I guess we totally agree. Nevermind.
>
> >>So what you are saying is there is no valid method of
> checking/adjusting the lie of a club...
> I'm not sure I beliee that?
>
> No, but I would say that finding the "perfect" lie for a given person is
> somewhat elusive. I just think you should start from the ground up, which
> infers a static check, under controlled parameters... the higher-tech the
> better. In short, fit the clubs to your personal build first.
I would suggest that the stripe test might be useful for that one or
two clubs that don't seem right...
> Then go to
> the range. If you find that properly fitted clubs just won't work for your
> swing, tweak away (as opposed to fixing the swing fault).
Your assumption is that there is a swing fault. That is not the case
with many golfers.
Our pro for example has a very solid swing (mini-tour quality if not
better). With proper fitting clubs he easily hits the ball where he
wants too most of the time. He is good enough to adjust to ill fiting
clubs... but why should he? I handed him a whippy one day (the
unltimate example of an ill fitted club). His first few balls were weak
fades, but then he started hitting long soft draws just like with his
own clubs.
> My clubs are
> standard lie.
Then you havve already identified what works well for you. You don't
need the stripe test or any other lie test unless one or more of them
start giving unusual results. But you should still consider having your
clubs checked once in a while to make sure they are in fact standard
and that they remain standard. My clubs are forged (which can go out of
adjustment though normal play) and haven't been checked for loft/lie
since they were built. I hope to correct that soon.
I would also consider it normal for a players needs wrt lie to change a
couple of times as they age or as injury, back pain, etc changes their
swing.
My philosophy is to eliminate as many variable with respect to
equipment as possible. There are still plenty of variables regarding
the swing to deal with.
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 17:41:20
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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uncle k wrote:
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
> >>....................
> >> Interesting, but pretty meaningless, as it relates to lie angle. Firs=
t,
> >> you'd need to plumb the line on the ball.
>
> > .................... It's not difficult to set the ball on the tee or
> > ground with the line vertical (orr damned near too it).
>
> (not using your stutter-checker, I see) You mean within "a few degrees,
> +/-?" Strike me dead, if that's not what I said. BTW, IF you set it on =
the
> ground, it could, and very well may, tilt, ever so slightly... let's say a
> few degrees, +/-, just for fun.
Let's say 1 or 3 degrees...
>
> >> Next, who among us (OK, besides
> >> Rude Dog) delivers the clubface with the blade absolutely square to
> >> horizontal, every time?
> >
> > The point is... noone can deliver the club square to the horizontal
> > with consistency unless the lie angle is very close to correct.
>
> Actually, Byron Nelson came pretty close...
Not with ill fitting clubs...
> Iron Byron can do this, all
> day.
Only if Iron Byron is adjusted to the club... or the club adjusted to
Iron Byron. Otherwise he will swing it the same degree off horizontal
every time.
> You keep making my point. When does the arguement begin?
>
> >I will
> > agree that the sample size of 1 described above can't confirm anything.
>
> You're still agreeing. Oh the humanity!
You never said that, at least not in so many words. I did.
>
> > You need to repeat it several times (maybe 15 or 20) to get a true
> > picture.
>
> And if, on that particular day, your swing just happened to be a few degr=
ees
> (+/-) steeper, or flatter than normal, or if you were lining up just a
> nut-hair forward or back of normal, or if your shoes had a thicker/thinner
> sole, or.................... you could hit 200 balls and still get a
> meaningless result.
And how would that differ from any other method of checking it?
>
> >> The gin for error is probably a few degrees
> >> +/-... which is equal to/beyond typical lie adjustments.
> >
> > I'm not sure I follow that statement. The lie adustment of any iron is
> > infinite within the range that it can be adjusted without breaking
> > it??? You can go trial and error until you get it where it needs to be.
>
> What part of a "typical" lie adjustment don't you understand?
Well I took it to mean that you think that it is not possible to set a
club to exactly x.y degrees or that you think it is impossible to
determine that you need x.y degrees or both. Your followup doesn't
clear this up?
> I'd say
> typical is a few degrees, +/-..... anything beyond that is getting
> atypical.
How much is a few?
>
> >> A
> >> non-perpendicular result might just mean you stood too close, or too f=
ar
> >> away, on that particular swing. On the other hand, if you're getting
> >> consistently radical results.......
> >
> > That's why you need a larger sample size. So what is acceptable for a
> > 10 handiap golfer... (5 of 10) or (7 of 10) or what?
>
> Maybe 400 balls a day, for a year. This wouldn't be the first time you've
> battled me over mere semantics, Dud. For instance: You show up, set up,
> hit 10 balls. 7 out of 10 leave a k which indicates your lie is too
> flat. Or does it? Who's to say you weren't just standing a little taller
> than normal that day, for fear of leaving potato skin skid-ks in your
> boxers? You bend your clubs to fit that moment in time? Then the hemis
> settle down and you bring a different swing to the course. Now you either
> need to bend them back, or reinsert the skins. Not a pretty choice.
So it's not necessarily a good idea to make changes based on the
results of one particular day. I'll conceed that. But what if you have
results over a period of time that indicates the lie is too upright...
would you consider altering the lie then... or just play 'em as is?
I'll also agree that there is 2 ways to go... adjust the clubs to the
swing or the swing to the club.
>
> > This method sounds as valid to me as tape on the sole???
>
> Which isn't very valid, either, except that it does protect the sole from
> scratching, to some degree. So, I guess we totally agree. Nevermind.
>
So what you are saying is there is no valid method of
checking/adjusting the lie of a club...
I'm not sure I beliee that?
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Date: 17 Sep 2006 17:07:56
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
> What part of a "typical" lie adjustment don't you understand?
>>Well I took it to mean that you think that it is not possible to set a
club to exactly x.y degrees or that you think it is impossible to
determine that you need x.y degrees or both. Your followup doesn't
clear this up?
> I'd say typical is a few degrees, +/-..... anything beyond that is
> getting
> atypical.
>>How much is a few?
That would be a somewhere between 2 and 4.... like about 3, give or take.
But, I can't really commit right now.
................................
>>So it's not necessarily a good idea to make changes based on the
results of one particular day. I'll conceed that. But what if you have
results over a period of time that indicates the lie is too upright...
would you consider altering the lie then... or just play 'em as is?
Why, I'd have them adjusted, in that case, assuming my swing was perfect and
the club was the culprit. But honestly, Dud, I care more about where my
ball ends up than how it got there. I'm not doing the test unless you're
willing to stripe the balls and set them up for me.
>>I'll also agree that there is 2 ways to go... adjust the clubs to the
swing or the swing to the club.
It's JMHO, but I believe the vast majority of golfers would do well to find
a swing which fits a standard lie, period. Aside from those who have a
*physical* reason for tweaking lies, only a top tier player can realize any
benefit from same, and even then, it might be too subtle to notice. Bending
a club to compensate for a bad swing is just goofy. I feel the opposite
about bending clubs to achieve optimum lofts. Even so, I've never done it,
choosing rather to know the range of capabilities for each club, and using
them accordingly. Hey, I'm lazy, and it's not a game of perfect.
> > This method sounds as valid to me as tape on the sole???
> Which isn't very valid, either, except that it does protect the sole from
> scratching, to some degree. So, I guess we totally agree. Nevermind.
>>So what you are saying is there is no valid method of
checking/adjusting the lie of a club...
I'm not sure I beliee that?
No, but I would say that finding the "perfect" lie for a given person is
somewhat elusive. I just think you should start from the ground up, which
infers a static check, under controlled parameters... the higher-tech the
better. In short, fit the clubs to your personal build first. Then go to
the range. If you find that properly fitted clubs just won't work for your
swing, tweak away (as opposed to fixing the swing fault). My clubs are
standard lie. When I swing properly, they do what I expect from them. When
I don't, well.......... I wouldn't say a couple degrees, one way or the
other, makes no difference, but there are far more important things to think
about. Back to the OP, I said it was "interesting." It might even be
useful, but more so for detecting impact angle faults than for accurately
checking lie angle.
Sincere apologies to any offended dark-siders,
Unc
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 16:42:29
From:
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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Tom wrote:
> At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew
> a 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the
> ground so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball
> and the line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was
> perpendicular with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still
> correct. He wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
I think the term is effective lie angle (the lie angle at impact as
opposed to the static lie angle at address). Anyway, they won't be the
same in a good swing, the toe will be up at address and flat at impact.
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 17:04:48
From:
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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>>At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry
>>erase ker and drew a 1" long, 1/4" wide line
>>on a range ball. He placed the ball on the
>>ground so the line was vertical and facing the club.
>>My son hit the ball and the line was transferred
>>to the face of the club. The line was perpendicular
>>with the groves on the club face so the lie
>>angle is still correct. He wiped his finger across the
>>club face and the line was gone.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
good deal, nail it, a symmetrical vertical line is a good enough reading
- for the one who made it.
>m h o
> v =83e
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0* a t t i t u d e =A0i s =A0e v e r y t h i n g *
>=A0=A0=A0=A0* d r i v e =A0l e s s -=A0c r e a t e =A0a =A0g l u t *
>d w n =A0w / t h e =A0$ c a l p e r - u $ e =A0l e $ $ =A0g a $
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 14:18:43
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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jeffc wrote:
> "Tom" <thall91739-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:w6HOg.149$832.78@trnddc04...
> > At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew a
> > 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the ground
> > so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball and the
> > line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was perpendicular
> > with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still correct. He
> > wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
>
> Actually it doesn't tell you much at all about the correct lie angle of the
> club. It could simply be that your son has adjusted his swing to hit that
> way. For example if his clubs are too upright, then he's just dipping the
> toe.
Then that also invalidates the standard method of tape and a lie
board...
But if the kid has groved the swing (without radical compensation) to
match the club... then it is correct... for that swing. Isn't that all
that matters?
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Date: 17 Sep 2006 22:42:02
From: jeffc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1158441523.823634.284750@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Actually it doesn't tell you much at all about the correct lie angle of
>> the
>> club. It could simply be that your son has adjusted his swing to hit
>> that
>> way. For example if his clubs are too upright, then he's just dipping
>> the
>> toe.
>
> Then that also invalidates the standard method of tape and a lie
> board...
No on the contrary, that method is still valid. Specifically because it
discovers the angle of the clubhead at impact relative to the ground, which
the "striped ball" method doesn't do.
> But if the kid has groved the swing (without radical compensation) to
> match the club... then it is correct... for that swing. Isn't that all
> that matters?
I wouldn't say so. But if he wants to continue swinging with a swing and
clubs that are "off", it's fine.
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 19:21:57
From: jeffc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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"Tom" <thall91739-nospam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:w6HOg.149$832.78@trnddc04...
> At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew a
> 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the ground
> so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball and the
> line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was perpendicular
> with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still correct. He
> wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
Actually it doesn't tell you much at all about the correct lie angle of the
club. It could simply be that your son has adjusted his swing to hit that
way. For example if his clubs are too upright, then he's just dipping the
toe.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 22:13:29
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
|
jeffc wrote:
> "Tom" <thall91739-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:w6HOg.149$832.78@trnddc04...
>> At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew a
>> 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the ground
>> so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball and the
>> line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was perpendicular
>> with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still correct. He
>> wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
>
> Actually it doesn't tell you much at all about the correct lie angle of the
> club. It could simply be that your son has adjusted his swing to hit that
> way. For example if his clubs are too upright, then he's just dipping the
> toe.
It doesn't matter if his son adjusted his swing - that's the lie of the
sole of the club at impact. Off a tee it won't matter, but off of a
resting lie it's the only lie angle that counts.
Hence the term 'dynamic lie'. Static lie measurements are a few steps
short of useful.
Dave
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 12:05:09
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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Tom wrote:
> At my son's golf lesson the instructor used a dry erase ker and drew
> a 1" long, 1/4" wide line on a range ball. He placed the ball on the
> ground so the line was vertical and facing the club. My son hit the ball
> and the line was transfered to the face of the club. The line was
> perpendicular with the groves on the club face so the lie angle is still
> correct. He wiped his finger across the club face and the line was gone.
Interesting.
Nice thing is it will also work for woods, which are generally really
hard to measure lie on.
Dave
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 19:23:08
From: jeffc
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
|
"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:eeh7b002fkp@news2.newsguy.com...
>
> Nice thing is it will also work for woods, which are generally really hard
> to measure lie on.
It could be even harder to figure out for the woods. If an iron is being
swung "off", at least you will see a divot sometimes with the toe or heel
too low. With a wood, you will see nothing.
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Date: 16 Sep 2006 19:22:29
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
|
"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:eeh7b002fkp@news2.newsguy.com...
>................... Interesting.
>
> Nice thing is it will also work for woods, which are generally really hard
> to measure lie on.
Interesting, but pretty meaningless, as it relates to lie angle. First,
you'd need to plumb the line on the ball. Next, who among us (OK, besides
Rude Dog) delivers the clubface with the blade absolutely square to
horizontal, every time? The gin for error is probably a few degrees
+/-... which is equal to/beyond typical lie adjustments. A
non-perpendicular result might just mean you stood too close, or too far
away, on that particular swing. On the other hand, if you're getting
consistently radical results.......
Unc
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 22:16:48
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
|
uncle k wrote:
> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eeh7b002fkp@news2.newsguy.com...
>> ................... Interesting.
>>
>> Nice thing is it will also work for woods, which are generally really hard
>> to measure lie on.
>
> Interesting, but pretty meaningless, as it relates to lie angle. First,
> you'd need to plumb the line on the ball. Next, who among us (OK, besides
> Rude Dog) delivers the clubface with the blade absolutely square to
> horizontal, every time? The gin for error is probably a few degrees
> +/-... which is equal to/beyond typical lie adjustments.
Yes, and just like any other measurement the consistency of the golfer
matters. The point, as with any fitting parameter, is the *best*
adjustment for that golfer's behavior.
As for 'plumbing' the ball, you don't need to. Just make it
perpendicular to the ground. After all, it's mostly the effect of the
ground that lie angle affects.
> A
> non-perpendicular result might just mean you stood too close, or too far
> away, on that particular swing. On the other hand, if you're getting
> consistently radical results.......
And your point is...?
If you don't have a grasp of the realities of experimental data, then
clearly this subject will be difficult.
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Date: 19 Sep 2006 06:10:24
From: uncle k
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
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"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote
>>>..................................
>> Interesting, but pretty meaningless, as it relates to lie angle. First,
>> you'd need to plumb the line on the ball.
> As for 'plumbing' the ball, you don't need to. Just make it perpendicular
> to the ground. After all, it's mostly the effect of the ground that lie
> angle affects.
Um, in Unc language "plumbing the line on the ball" = making the line
perpendicular to the ground. (100% dead-ass accurate, that is)
>> A non-perpendicular result might just mean you stood too close, or too
>> far away, on that particular swing. On the other hand, if you're getting
>> consistently radical results.......
> And your point is...?
The point is: all it takes is setting the line on the ball up a degree or
two off, then stand to close/far and swing. Voila! Completely useless
result.
> If you don't have a grasp of the realities of experimental data, then
> clearly this subject will be difficult.
I have an excellent grasp of monkey-dartboard experimentation. I find this
concept to be equally valid, "as it relates to lie angle."
Unc
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 22:21:19
From: JJK
Subject: Re: Simple way to check lie angle of clubs
|
"uncle k" wrote:
<snip >
> I have an excellent grasp of monkey-dartboard experimentation. I find
this
> concept to be equally valid, "as it relates to lie angle."
When did you take up darts? <VERY BIG GRIN >
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