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Date: 20 Mar 2007 10:15:28
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Rules question
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Our signature hole is a short par 3, downhill to a moated green. The
drop zone is in front of the water.
The question is, if you clear the water on the front of the green, but
overshoot and go in the water at the back of the green, where do you
take your drop?
The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 08:59:45
From: M.N.
Subject: Re: Rules question
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I agree with taking your next shot on the egde back of the fringe/rough,
whatever it may be a good club length n half away from the water hazard.
I have used longer clubs in err and had to do this on occasion with smaller
water covered p3's
Mind you, I'm a play if where it lays kinda golfer, even under the most
extreme circumstances. Well, as long as I can see the ball! :) eh!
not sure what the rules are for that.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-3657E6.10152820032007@individual.net...
> Our signature hole is a short par 3, downhill to a moated green. The
> drop zone is in front of the water.
>
> The question is, if you clear the water on the front of the green, but
> overshoot and go in the water at the back of the green, where do you
> take your drop?
>
> The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
> and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
> at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 15:24:59
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Rules question
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On Tue, 20 2007 10:15:28 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>Our signature hole is a short par 3, downhill to a moated green. The
>drop zone is in front of the water.
>
>The question is, if you clear the water on the front of the green, but
>overshoot and go in the water at the back of the green, where do you
>take your drop?
>
>The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
>and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
>at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
Unless it's a local rule....just to speed up play:
If it is a water hazard (not lateral) then you must keep the point
where the ball last entered the hazard between you and the pin. I
gather, from what you say, that you would be dropping between the
water and the green.
--
___,
\o
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 10:40:18
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Rules question
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In article <tvuvv2t3croilqde0o8oehktrr7rv3io2d@4ax.com >,
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 2007 10:15:28 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >Our signature hole is a short par 3, downhill to a moated green. The
> >drop zone is in front of the water.
> >
> >The question is, if you clear the water on the front of the green, but
> >overshoot and go in the water at the back of the green, where do you
> >take your drop?
> >
> >The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
> >and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
> >at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
>
>
> Unless it's a local rule....just to speed up play:
> If it is a water hazard (not lateral) then you must keep the point
> where the ball last entered the hazard between you and the pin. I
> gather, from what you say, that you would be dropping between the
> water and the green.
It isn't formally a local rule, except for the scramble outings, it has
just always been done that way.
But it would be impossible to follow the rule at the backside of the
green/fringe as there just isn't any place to do it.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 12:28:55
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Rules question
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Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball between
the green and the hazard period.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-0DB0A5.10401820032007@individual.net...
> In article <tvuvv2t3croilqde0o8oehktrr7rv3io2d@4ax.com>,
> Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 2007 10:15:28 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
>> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Our signature hole is a short par 3, downhill to a moated green. The
>> >drop zone is in front of the water.
>> >
>> >The question is, if you clear the water on the front of the green, but
>> >overshoot and go in the water at the back of the green, where do you
>> >take your drop?
>> >
>> >The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
>> >and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
>> >at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
>>
>>
>> Unless it's a local rule....just to speed up play:
>> If it is a water hazard (not lateral) then you must keep the point
>> where the ball last entered the hazard between you and the pin. I
>> gather, from what you say, that you would be dropping between the
>> water and the green.
>
> It isn't formally a local rule, except for the scramble outings, it has
> just always been done that way.
>
> But it would be impossible to follow the rule at the backside of the
> green/fringe as there just isn't any place to do it.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 11:41:54
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Rules question
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On Tue, 20 2007 12:28:55 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:
>Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
>gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball between
>the green and the hazard period.
A drop can often be between the green and the hazard without being
nearer to the hole.
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 09:05:47
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Rules question
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Tue, 20 2007 12:28:55 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
>>gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball between
>>the green and the hazard period.
>
>
> A drop can often be between the green and the hazard without being
> nearer to the hole.
How? The rule requires the ball to be played from BEHIND the
hazard....see Rule 26-1b.
If the Local Rule about the Drop Zone does not specifically include the
hazard behind the green then the 'Drop Zone' is simply not an option. If
the available 'legal' options under the rules are simply not practical
or possible the Committee is entitled to declare a 'Drop Zone' as an
additional option, without denying existing options. The Committee has
erred if this has not been done. However, a player cannot take it upon
himself to use the drop zone without formal authority, and his only
'legal' remedy is to replay the shot (Rule 26-1a).
cheers
david
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 16:37:23
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Rules question
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"david s-a" <dsantwyk@bigpond.net.au > wrote in message
news:56b469F28qgs2U1@mid.individual.net...
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 2007 12:28:55 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
>>>gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball
>>>between the green and the hazard period.
>>
>>
>> A drop can often be between the green and the hazard without being
>> nearer to the hole.
>
>
> How? The rule requires the ball to be played from BEHIND the hazard....see
> Rule 26-1b.
>
But there are clauses 'a' and 'c' there too ... so, say my ball is between
the hazard and the green, I hit my shot, it hits a tree and comes back into
the hazard ... rule 26-1a: I can drop where I previously played from, ie
between the hazard and the green.
Bob
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 11:12:46
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Rules question
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Bob wrote:
>
>
> But there are clauses 'a' and 'c' there too ... so, say my ball is between
> the hazard and the green, I hit my shot, it hits a tree and comes back into
> the hazard ... rule 26-1a: I can drop where I previously played from, ie
> between the hazard and the green.
This was not the situation posed in the original post, but Ok if you
want to adopt this different scenario. Clause 'c' of course only applies
to a lateral water hazard.... and presumably you were striking the ball
towards the green, and therefore the ball was deflected away from the
green. It is unlikely you would take the clause 'c' option given the
apparent difficulty of dropping no nearer the hole.
cheers
david
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 02:15:48
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Rules question
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david s-a wrote:
> It is unlikely you would take the clause 'c' option given the
> apparent difficulty of dropping no nearer the hole.
David, you should see the locals trying to get their heads around the
new ponds on the 13th and 15th at Trentham when their ball overshoots
the green and runs into the water hazard (ked lateral).
We removed the drop zones a while back because the grass had grown in.
But when they can't drop within two club lengths of the point of entry
*and* not closer to the pin, they seem very reticent to either go back
to the tee or to the opposite side!
Their latest attempts at relief involve going to the side end of the
pond because that is the nearest point "not closer to the hole". I've
had to ask a couple of players where that rule is in the book! :-)
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 15:19:46
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Rules question
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Colin Wilson wrote:
> We removed the drop zones a while back because the grass had grown in.
> But when they can't drop within two club lengths of the point of entry
> *and* not closer to the pin, they seem very reticent to either go back
> to the tee or to the opposite side!
>
...ummmm......I'm trying to visualise the ponds vis-a-vis the greens. Is
there an 'opposite side' point on the gin equidistant from the hole?
'Cos that's where the reference point has to be! These are the twin par
3's right?
'Grass grown in'...I thought you didn't have any!
cheers
david
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 04:43:00
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Rules question
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david s-a wrote:
> ...ummmm......I'm trying to visualise the ponds vis-a-vis the greens. Is
> there an 'opposite side' point on the gin equidistant from the hole?
> 'Cos that's where the reference point has to be! These are the twin par
> 3's right?
Yes, those are the holes.
It's almost impossible to drop "equidistant from the hole on the
opposite side", because the kidney-shaped curve of the pond at best just
follows the curve of the green. So anything "equidistant" is just along
the front edge and dropping within two club lengths would put you closer
to the hole.
Without going back to the tee, that leaves relief under 26-1b, which
would involve going to the far side of the hazard ("behind" the hazard
relative to the green) and dropping in a line with the pin and point of
entry (e.g. Point D in the diagram in Dec 26-1/15).
> 'Grass grown in'...I thought you didn't have any!
We've got some there. The original problem that needed a drop zone was
with the ducks eating the new grass to the roots.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 15:05:41
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Rules question
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ROG 26-1.c only applies to a lateral hazard.
"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:947003pd6mbjifc8dp73lorlp74afu8n20@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 2007 12:28:55 -0400, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
>>gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball between
>>the green and the hazard period.
>
> A drop can often be between the green and the hazard without being
> nearer to the hole.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 12:11:13
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Rules question
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In article <T6udnVBjHd1Ulp3bnZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:
> Regardless of how, why, when or where the ball last crossed the hazard
> gin, ROG 26-1 is pretty definitive that you can't drop the ball between
> the green and the hazard period.
Feel free to correct me, but it seems I've seen them do just that at
tournaments, including last weekends.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 09:22:36
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Rules question
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On Tue, 20 2007 10:15:28 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
>and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
>at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
Can you drop it there - no closer to the hole? Occasionally I can't
do that - which is irritating when my only option is stroke and
distance.
21.1-C As additional options available only if the ball last crossed
the gin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water
hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the
point where the original ball last crossed the gin of the water
hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite gin of the water hazard
equidistant from the hole.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 10:43:44
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Rules question
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In article <squvv29e7h6epkjbgfb52e3gq8jb9b26sh@4ax.com >,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 2007 10:15:28 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
> <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >The club has always played it to take the drop at the drop zone, but I
> >and others, think that you should take the drop at the back of the green
> >at the edge of the fringe where your ball entered the water.
>
> Can you drop it there - no closer to the hole? Occasionally I can't
> do that - which is irritating when my only option is stroke and
> distance.
>
> 21.1-C As additional options available only if the ball last crossed
> the gin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water
> hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the
> point where the original ball last crossed the gin of the water
> hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite gin of the water hazard
> equidistant from the hole.
No closer to the hole would not be possible unless you went either to
the right or left of the point of entry, and even then not always
possible because the fringe is almost non existent in many places around
the green. And because of the slope of the fringe in most places a drop
wouldn't work at all, only a placing.
But as a question, if you've already crossed the water at the front of
the green, is the rest of the water considered a lateral, even though
the backside wouldn't be lateral to the line of flight?
It appears from the 2 responses that maybe the drop zone is the only
practical way to play the shot.
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 10:11:34
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Rules question
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On Tue, 20 2007 10:43:44 -0500, Lloyd Parsons
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>No closer to the hole would not be possible unless you went either to
>the right or left of the point of entry, and even then not always
>possible because the fringe is almost non existent in many places around
>the green. And because of the slope of the fringe in most places a drop
>wouldn't work at all, only a placing.
If there is a place, you could try dropping 3 times then placing - as
long as the legal drop area is outside of the hazard. The legal drop
location doesn't have to be large.
>But as a question, if you've already crossed the water at the front of
>the green, is the rest of the water considered a lateral, even though
>the backside wouldn't be lateral to the line of flight?
I've been to places that didn't k their water hazards. In those
cases, if it was beside the fairway, I assumed the hazard to be
lateral. I doubt this would qualify unless it was so ked.
26/3 A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately
the gins of water hazards and lateral water hazards — see Rule
33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by
definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted
to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).
>It appears from the 2 responses that maybe the drop zone is the only
>practical way to play the shot.
26-1/18 Impossible to Drop Not Nearer Hole Than Point Where Ball Last
Crossed gin of Lateral Water Hazard
Q. When a ball last crosses the gin of a lateral water hazard at
the side of a putting green, it is sometimes impossible to drop a ball
within two club-lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the
hazard gin without dropping nearer the hole than that point. What
is the procedure in such a case?
A. It is usually possible to drop a ball on the near side of a lateral
water hazard and conform with Rule 26-1c(i) by dropping the ball close
to the hazard gin. Where this is impossible, the player must
proceed under one of the other options provided in Rule 26-1.
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