Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

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Date: 25 Sep 2006 09:39:06
From: James
Subject: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
following choice:

If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
you're happy with the lie.
This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
up.

Thanks for any opinions.

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Date: 28 Sep 2006 18:08:07
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

X-No-Archive: yes

Steve S wrote:
> "Robert Hamilton" <DBID@att.net> wrote in message
> news:451C0AFD.3A352AC7@att.net...
> >
> >> > I used to play in weekend dogfights and the like every week possible.
> >> > Rolling the ball was the norm. I've also played in many wolf games and
> >> > the like, same thing. Lots of low handicaps in there, and rolling the
> >> > ball was the norm. Social tournaments, same thing. It's hard to find a
> >> > game anwhere where they don't roll the ball.
> >>> Play in some regular organized groups!
> >
> >
>
> I do, at one of the nicer clubs in Charlotte. The dogfight is played down,
> unless there is an extenuating circumstance like 7 inches of rain the few
> days before. Otherwise hit it, find it, hit it again.

I am green with envy! I am the total opposite of you on the golf
course. I am a short knocker, and extremely unlucky!

One of the few strengths to my game is I put my drive in the fairway a
lot. When people who hit the ball wherever can roll the ball to an
optimal lie, and not pay the price, it takes away my biggest strength.
Thus I have had to quit playing in dogfights and social tournaments
(for the most part) because rolling the ball really hurts me relative
to lucky long knockers like you!

Date: 27 Sep 2006 17:41:26
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

X-No-Archive: yes

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2006 09:04:33 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote:
>
> >Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
> >ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength.
>
> None that I have seen do this.

While I believe your satement of your own experience, I none the less
find it stunning. I have *NEVER* played in any saturday/sunday morning
gaggle of golfers that didn't, and most of the golfers in those groups
are single digit handicappers, several scratch or better, at least by
the numbers they post. Rolling the ball is becoming more or less
ubiquitous in recreational golf.

Note that this is not to say that all low handicap golfers do this; not
by a longshot. Many will not play in these groups because of it.

Date: 28 Sep 2006 00:52:48
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On 27 Sep 2006 17:41:26 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:

>> None that I have seen do this.
>
>While I believe your satement of your own experience, I none the less
>find it stunning. I have *NEVER* played in any saturday/sunday morning
>gaggle of golfers that didn't, and most of the golfers in those groups
>are single digit handicappers, several scratch or better, at least by
>the numbers they post. Rolling the ball is becoming more or less
>ubiquitous in recreational golf.

I have to admit that my experience with playing with low-handicap
golfers is limited to playing with serious golfers. The people you
describe aren't at all uncommon with casual golfers. But they aren't
that good.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 19:53:45
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On 27 Sep 2006 17:41:26 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:

>X-No-Archive: yes
>
>Howard Brazee wrote:
>> On 27 Sep 2006 09:04:33 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
>> >ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength.
>>
>> None that I have seen do this.
>
>While I believe your satement of your own experience, I none the less
>find it stunning. I have *NEVER* played in any saturday/sunday morning
>gaggle of golfers that didn't, and most of the golfers in those groups
>are single digit handicappers, several scratch or better, at least by
>the numbers they post. Rolling the ball is becoming more or less
>ubiquitous in recreational golf.
>
I don't disbelieve you, but it is stunning. In the 26 years that I
have belonged to my club I have never seen anyone move the ball unless
the pro shop has declared lift, clean and place...or as we call it,
lift, clean and cheat. There are those groups that play gimmes
though. The problem there is that they start with a grip length, and
end up a club length by 18. There are those who just won't play with
our group, that numbers 20 or so, because we play 'em down, and putt
'em out.

The one thing that is painfully obvious though is that many of the
low handicap players are the vanity single digit type. They can't
play to it by a long shot.

>Note that this is not to say that all low handicap golfers do this; not
>by a longshot. Many will not play in these groups because of it.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 15:43:12
From:
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:49:34 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> X-No-Archive: yes
> >>
> >> Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
> >> ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength. No reason for you
> >> not to do it if that's the affirmation you are looking for. Never seen
> >> anyone other than a beginner tee it up.
> >
> >Most scratch golfers move the ball on "every shot"? You're joking,
> >right?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this ... except maybe a
> >couple of really old codgers. I don't believe any decent golfer would
> >play this way.
> >
> >> If you can hit down and through the ball, this sort of cheating makes
> >> little difference. It only matters to those who can't hit through the
> >> ball solidly...and it's why they do it!
> >
> >OK, this makes no sense at all to me?? Sounds like you're saying scratch
> >players move the ball because can't hit the ball solidly (yet they're
> >somehow scratch players)? And it "makes little difference"? I think it
> >would make a huge difference even to a good player ... I'm sure if the
> >rules allowed, everyone would roll the ball onto a good lie.
> >
> >Rob
>
> He has no clue, and will say some of the most inane things that it's
> best for you to just laugh.
> --
> ___,

YOu tell him booby

Date: 27 Sep 2006 11:05:14
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

X-No-Archive: yes

Rob Davis wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > X-No-Archive: yes
> >
> > Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
> > ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength. No reason for you
> > not to do it if that's the affirmation you are looking for. Never seen
> > anyone other than a beginner tee it up.
>
> Most scratch golfers move the ball on "every shot"? You're joking,
> right?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this ... except maybe a
> couple of really old codgers. I don't believe any decent golfer would
> play this way.
>
> > If you can hit down and through the ball, this sort of cheating makes
> > little difference. It only matters to those who can't hit through the
> > ball solidly...and it's why they do it!
>
> OK, this makes no sense at all to me?? Sounds like you're saying scratch
> players move the ball because can't hit the ball solidly (yet they're
> somehow scratch players)? And it "makes little difference"? I think it
> would make a huge difference even to a good player ... I'm sure if the
> rules allowed, everyone would roll the ball onto a good lie.
>

I used to play in weekend dogfights and the like every week possible.
Rolling the ball was the norm. I've also played in many wolf games and
the like, same thing. Lots of low handicaps in there, and rolling the
ball was the norm. Social tournaments, same thing. It's hard to find a
game anwhere where they don't roll the ball. My opinion on hitting down
and through the ball comes from what I have been taught. If you roll
the ball, feel you have to set it up, you will never learn how to hit
down through the ball. Set it down, and then the only way you can hit
any semblance of a shot is to hit down and through it. Just what I have
learned and what I have seen. IMHO, lots of those low handicaps don't
hit through the ball that well; just the sound of the shot, and JMHO.
But if they didn't feel the need to do it, why do it?

Date: 28 Sep 2006 03:13:29
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

The_Professor wrote:
> I used to play in weekend dogfights and the like every week possible.
> Rolling the ball was the norm. I've also played in many wolf games and
> the like, same thing. Lots of low handicaps in there, and rolling the
> ball was the norm. Social tournaments, same thing. It's hard to find a
> game anwhere where they don't roll the ball.

That's an interesting game that you guys play ... what do you call it
(hint ... it isn't golf) 8^).

Not to beat a dead horse, but just as another point of reference (now
that it appears you're actually not pulling our chain) ... most of my
golf is just walk-on at local munis. The skill level is all over the map
... I've seen and been paired with everything from total beginners to
scratch players. But from what I've seen, the vast majority at least try
to play the ball as it lies. In fact, that may the only rule that many
folks know ... OB, obstructions, hazards, and tending the flag are total
mysteries to a lot of them ... but they don't routinely "roll" the ball.

Rob

Date: 28 Sep 2006 17:56:21
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

Rob Davis wrote:

> The_Professor wrote:
> > I used to play in weekend dogfights and the like every week possible.
> > Rolling the ball was the norm. I've also played in many wolf games and
> > the like, same thing. Lots of low handicaps in there, and rolling the
> > ball was the norm. Social tournaments, same thing. It's hard to find a
> > game anwhere where they don't roll the ball.
>
> That's an interesting game that you guys play ... what do you call it
> (hint ... it isn't golf) 8^).
>
> Not to beat a dead horse, but just as another point of reference (now
> that it appears you're actually not pulling our chain) ... most of my
> golf is just walk-on at local munis. The skill level is all over the map
> ... I've seen and been paired with everything from total beginners to
> scratch players. But from what I've seen, the vast majority at least try
> to play the ball as it lies. In fact, that may the only rule that many
> folks know ... OB, obstructions, hazards, and tending the flag are total
> mysteries to a lot of them ... but they don't routinely "roll" the ball.

Play in some regular organized groups!

Date: 28 Sep 2006 19:54:45
From: Steve S
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

"Robert Hamilton" <DBID@att.net > wrote in message
news:451C0AFD.3A352AC7@att.net...
>
>> > I used to play in weekend dogfights and the like every week possible.
>> > Rolling the ball was the norm. I've also played in many wolf games and
>> > the like, same thing. Lots of low handicaps in there, and rolling the
>> > ball was the norm. Social tournaments, same thing. It's hard to find a
>> > game anwhere where they don't roll the ball.
>>> Play in some regular organized groups!
>
>

I do, at one of the nicer clubs in Charlotte. The dogfight is played down,
unless there is an extenuating circumstance like 7 inches of rain the few
days before. Otherwise hit it, find it, hit it again.

Date: 28 Sep 2006 11:59:53
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:13:29 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net >
wrote:

>... I've seen and been paired with everything from total beginners to
>scratch players. But from what I've seen, the vast majority at least try
>to play the ball as it lies. In fact, that may the only rule that many
>folks know ... OB, obstructions, hazards, and tending the flag are total
>mysteries to a lot of them ... but they don't routinely "roll" the ball.

It's the easiest rule to learn, and the hardest to pretend you don't
know.

But we are peer driven. If some people start doing something like
rolling the ball in a club, I can see lots of people there accepting
that as the norm. Which makes tournaments between that club and a
neighboring club attractive for the neighboring club.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 09:52:09
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

> Funny, Snead's book from 1947 advises not to use a tee but to (from
> memory) flick a piece or earth up using the toe of the club and rest
> the ball on that.

That's how Laura Davies does it now...

Date: 27 Sep 2006 09:04:33
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

X-No-Archive: yes

Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength. No reason for you
not to do it if that's the affirmation you are looking for. Never seen
anyone other than a beginner tee it up.

If you can hit down and through the ball, this sort of cheating makes
little difference. It only matters to those who can't hit through the
ball solidly...and it's why they do it!

Date: 27 Sep 2006 22:08:14
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On 27 Sep 2006 09:04:33 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:

>Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
>ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength.

None that I have seen do this.

Date: 27 Sep 2006 16:49:34
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

The_Professor wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
> ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength. No reason for you
> not to do it if that's the affirmation you are looking for. Never seen
> anyone other than a beginner tee it up.

Most scratch golfers move the ball on "every shot"? You're joking,
right?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this ... except maybe a
couple of really old codgers. I don't believe any decent golfer would
play this way.

> If you can hit down and through the ball, this sort of cheating makes
> little difference. It only matters to those who can't hit through the
> ball solidly...and it's why they do it!

OK, this makes no sense at all to me?? Sounds like you're saying scratch
players move the ball because can't hit the ball solidly (yet they're
somehow scratch players)? And it "makes little difference"? I think it
would make a huge difference even to a good player ... I'm sure if the
rules allowed, everyone would roll the ball onto a good lie.

Rob

Date: 27 Sep 2006 11:59:50
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 16:49:34 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net >
wrote:

>The_Professor wrote:
>> X-No-Archive: yes
>>
>> Most scratch/low handicap golfers I have seen lift, clean and place the
>> ball every shot, moving the ball up to a clublength. No reason for you
>> not to do it if that's the affirmation you are looking for. Never seen
>> anyone other than a beginner tee it up.
>
>Most scratch golfers move the ball on "every shot"? You're joking,
>right?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do this ... except maybe a
>couple of really old codgers. I don't believe any decent golfer would
>play this way.
>
>> If you can hit down and through the ball, this sort of cheating makes
>> little difference. It only matters to those who can't hit through the
>> ball solidly...and it's why they do it!
>
>OK, this makes no sense at all to me?? Sounds like you're saying scratch
>players move the ball because can't hit the ball solidly (yet they're
>somehow scratch players)? And it "makes little difference"? I think it
>would make a huge difference even to a good player ... I'm sure if the
>rules allowed, everyone would roll the ball onto a good lie.
>
>Rob

He has no clue, and will say some of the most inane things that it's
best for you to just laugh.
--
___,
\o

Date: 26 Sep 2006 21:21:54
From: sjh
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

annika1980 wrote:
> James wrote:
> > >
> > If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> > second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> > placing every shot, what would you choose to do?
>
> Let's ask Davis Love III. Here is what he says about it:
> =======================
>
> "As a teenager, I got to play once with Sam Snead. Sam didn't say much,
> if anything, about my swing, or even my length, but he did say one
> thing I'll never forget: After watching me play an iron shot on a par-3
> without the benefit of a tee, Snead said to me, somewhat derisively,
> "Son, I've never seen a player good enough not to use a peg when the
> rules give it to him. Not yet, anyway." Before that, I always thought I
> was cool in teeing up the ball on a little tuft of grass on par-3s.
> After that, I've never not used a "peg."

Funny, Snead's book from 1947 advises not to use a tee but to (from
memory) flick a piece or earth up using the toe of the club and rest
the ball on that.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 15:16:21
From: James
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

In article <250920060939067373%I'm@home.now >, James <I'm@home.now>
wrote:

> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.

Thanks to all those that replied so far. Judging by the responses,
I guess I should have placed more limits on my hypothetical. I should
have said that the second and third shots would only be from the
fairway, instead of from the rough, where a tee would obviously be an
advantage. Also, I should have said that the second shot on a par 5
must be hit with an iron, instead of being able to tee it up for a 3
wood or driver, another obvious advantage.
The reason why I asked this question is because I'm the one who
thinks that a scratch or low-handicap golfer would choose to lift and
place the ball on a perfect lie rather than placing it on a tee. My
friend thinks otherwise. The reason why I thought this is because I've
always thought that a tee would hinder being able to "pinch" the ball
properly and impart the desired backspin on the ball. I'm nowhere near
a scratch golfer, and only rarely hit the ball with the proper
descending blow (usually only by accident). This is why I was asking
for the opinions of you good golfers -- those that actually know what
you're doing.
To those that are saying that teeing the ball very low would
replicate a "perfect lie," is that really true? Again, I'm not a very
good golfer, so I don't really know. But it seems to me that having a
hard wooden tee between the ball and clubface would lessen the amount
of backspin you could put on the ball. This seems especially true with
shorter irons, where the angle of descent is much steeper. I'm not
sure, but I think this is why I always have such a hard time pinching
the ball when hitting a short iron from a tee. The ball doesn't stick
to the clubface and compress, and usually just slips out quickly with
hardly any spin at all, resulting in sort of a pop-up knuckleball. On
the other hand, without a tee in the way, the ball grips the clubface
longer and compresses, imparting more backspin. With a mid-iron and, to
a lesser extent, a long iron, it seems like the same principle would
apply.
So, I just thought that if you really want to be able to work the
ball, whether side to side or with backspin to hold a slick green, it
would be better to pinch the ball between turf and clubface rather than
having a hard wooden tee in the way. Judging by the responses so far,
I'm apparently wrong. This is very enlightening to me, so thanks to all
you good golfers for your opinions so far :-)

--

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Date: 27 Sep 2006 02:20:45
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

"James" <I'm@home.now > wrote in message
news:260920061516210027%I'm@home.now...

> To those that are saying that teeing the ball very low would
> replicate a "perfect lie," is that really true? Again, I'm not a very
> good golfer, so I don't really know. But it seems to me that having a
> hard wooden tee between the ball and clubface would lessen the amount
> of backspin you could put on the ball. This seems especially true with
> shorter irons, where the angle of descent is much steeper. I'm not
> sure, but I think this is why I always have such a hard time pinching
> the ball when hitting a short iron from a tee. The ball doesn't stick
> to the clubface and compress, and usually just slips out quickly with
> hardly any spin at all, resulting in sort of a pop-up knuckleball. On
> the other hand, without a tee in the way, the ball grips the clubface
> longer and compresses, imparting more backspin. With a mid-iron and, to
> a lesser extent, a long iron, it seems like the same principle would
> apply.
> So, I just thought that if you really want to be able to work the
> ball, whether side to side or with backspin to hold a slick green, it
> would be better to pinch the ball between turf and clubface rather than
> having a hard wooden tee in the way. Judging by the responses so far,
> I'm apparently wrong. This is very enlightening to me, so thanks to all
> you good golfers for your opinions so far :-)

I don't think being on turf affects compression. Turf doesn't provide
nearly enough resistance to have much affect on ball compression. (The
highest compression achieved in golf occurs when the ball is up on a tee and
struck with a driver at high clubhead speed).

Three things influence backspin: compression (i.e. club speed) and imbedding
onto the clubface, the angle of attack with respect to the clubface (so loft
+ descending blow increases the angle and backspin), and the degree to which
there is clean contact between the ball and the metal (i.e. no grass, water,
dirt, etc.).

As far as I can tell only the last factor is affected by teeing the ball up,
and it promotes clean contact. So, IMO more backspin will result from a
teed ball on average.

Scott

Date: 27 Sep 2006 00:47:21
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:16:21 -0700, James <I'm@home.now > wrote:

>The reason why I thought this is because I've
>always thought that a tee would hinder being able to "pinch" the ball
>properly and impart the desired backspin on the ball.

That's a common thought - but when you test this out with golfers who
are good enough to put back-spin on balls, you will find that they put
just as much back-spin on teed balls.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 07:41:47
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

> Don't know why James brought the subject up in the first place, but
> it's obvious that he's given some thought to it.

Probably because he's a friend of yours and posted it so you'd have a
place to reply shilling your product.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 06:31:22
From: cpeterso
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

I realize that this message was for scratch or low-handicap golfers.
I'm not even a high-handicapper. I'm an average recreational golfer
without a handicap. I have been using a tee on fairways, in the rough,
in bunkers for several years. I thought I was the only one who ever
even thought about it.

Consequently, I invented a game called TeeGolf
(http://www.playteegolf.com) to incorporate the use of a tee in places
other than the tee box. And I've been playing it for over 3 years.

Don't know why James brought the subject up in the first place, but
it's obvious that he's given some thought to it.

James wrote:
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 26 Sep 2006 05:02:10
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

Date: 25 Sep 2006 23:32:37
From: Paul David
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

James <I'm@home.now > wrote in news:250920060939067373%I'm@home.now:

>
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball
> up, you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie
> possible. In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires
> you to replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is
> in a divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass
> until you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>
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Arnold's Dad told him the tee up EVERY chance he got! I quit placing my
ball on a little grass after hearing this (on par 3 tee boxes). I get a
better shot by a little bit.

--
" Location 75 miles north of New Orleans "

Date: 25 Sep 2006 19:17:07
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:39:06 -0700, James <I'm@home.now> wrote:
>
> > This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> >since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> >properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> >up.
>
> Which pro answered that question (on par-3 holes) with "because I
> can"?

I'm not sure what the real answer is, but it probably would be all of
them!

As someone already said, sometimes you might put the tee so close to
the ground there isn't much difference, but you always put it on the
tee when allowed.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 01:56:49
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:39:06 -0700, James <I'm@home.now > wrote:

> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
>since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
>properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
>up.

Which pro answered that question (on par-3 holes) with "because I
can"?

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 25 Sep 2006 21:23:08
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

"James" <I'm@home.now > wrote in message
news:250920060939067373%I'm@home.now...
>
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>
snip

I'm not sure that I understand the reason for the question. But the rational
answer would seem to me to have to be 'the tee'. You can always use a tee
(very low) to simulate a perfect lie in the fairway, if that is what you
want. Doesn't work the other way.

dave

Date: 25 Sep 2006 15:07:03
From: warren montgomery
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
Well I'd sometimes qualify as low handicap and my answer would depend on the
quality of the fairways. Decent turf and I'd lift and place. Bad turf and
I'd tee. (Very apt question because we have now entered "wimp grass" season
here -- when those nice sturdy grass blades that held the ball up all summer
get replaced by thin wimpy stuff that gets flattened in the mud every time
you step on it or run a cart or mower over it, leaving large stretches of
the fairway with a thin layer of green mush over mud. You can't get a
perfect lie out of that no matter how you work at it).

--
Warren Montgomery (wamontgomery@att.net)
http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery
"James" <I'm@home.now > wrote in message
news:250920060939067373%I'm@home.now...
Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 25 Sep 2006 15:27:53
From: A Brick in the Wall
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

"James" <I'm@home.now > wrote in message
news:250920060939067373%I'm@home.now...
>
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>

I would tee it up every time -- but many shots would be teed so low that it
would be the same as just lifting & placing --- I would fully tee up on some
par 5's where I could use driver more than once -- but that would be the
main purpose of the extra teeing....

I'm a 9.1 --- but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express recently....

> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
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Date: 25 Sep 2006 10:57:10
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

James wrote:
> >
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do?

Let's ask Davis Love III. Here is what he says about it:
=======================

"As a teenager, I got to play once with Sam Snead. Sam didn't say much,
if anything, about my swing, or even my length, but he did say one
thing I'll never forget: After watching me play an iron shot on a par-3
without the benefit of a tee, Snead said to me, somewhat derisively,
"Son, I've never seen a player good enough not to use a peg when the
rules give it to him. Not yet, anyway." Before that, I always thought I
was cool in teeing up the ball on a little tuft of grass on par-3s.
After that, I've never not used a "peg."

Date: 25 Sep 2006 10:06:35
From: cpeterso
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

James wrote:
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 25 Sep 2006 13:05:32
From: David Sneddon
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

James wrote:
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.

I suppose I qualify, with a 4.5, though I struggle to play to it these days.

You don't tee it up, neither do you lift, clean and place. You play it
as it lies - that's one reason most of us became low handicappers.

David

Date: 25 Sep 2006 12:19:50
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

David Sneddon wrote:
> James wrote:
>
>> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
>> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
>> following choice:
>>
>> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
>> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
>> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
>> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
>> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
>> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
>> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
>> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
>> you're happy with the lie.
>> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
>> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
>> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
>> up.
>>
>> Thanks for any opinions.
>
>
> I suppose I qualify, with a 4.5, though I struggle to play to it these
> days.
>
> You don't tee it up, neither do you lift, clean and place. You play it
> as it lies - that's one reason most of us became low handicappers.
>
> David

And you play by the rules, taking your medicine when it is necessary.
IMO, it's the best way to learn course management.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 Sep 2006 17:02:05
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

Well, it's kind of a funny question ... since in most cases, for an iron
shot, you would simply tee the ball just high enough to create a
"perfect" lie. Not really much difference.

But if you had to choose one and stick with it all the time ... I think
you would have to chose the tee since it gives you the most options ...
teeing it up in the rough or even hitting driver again on a par 5. I
don't see the downside of using a tee, since you can tee it as low as
you want. Almost all players use a tee for a par 3 iron shot, when they
have the same options you describe.

Rob

James wrote:
> A friend and I got into a debate the other day about what a
> scratch or low-handicap (single digit) golfer would do given the
> following choice:
>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it
> up.
>
> Thanks for any opinions.
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 25 Sep 2006 09:59:54
From: cja
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

James wrote:

> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do?
>
I'd have to choose lift/place. I'd be happy to tee up fairway woods, or
hit driver from the fairway on a long par 5. Any shot from 100 yards
or less, I would not want to tee up. I especially don't want to tee up
putts (you did say 'every shot').

- cja

Date: 25 Sep 2006 09:57:46
From:
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

don't the pro's tee it up 100% of times from the tee-box... why would
the fairway be any different?.... maybe i'm missing a reason though.

don't forget they can tee if very low, which basically replicates a
perfect fairway lie.

Date: 25 Sep 2006 17:04:28
From: Matt
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

<motofrankster@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1159203466.600185.186000@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> don't the pro's tee it up 100% of times from the tee-box... why would
> the fairway be any different?.... maybe i'm missing a reason though.
>
> don't forget they can tee if very low, which basically replicates a
> perfect fairway lie.

Its not 100%, but I think its pretty high.

I've never felt comfortable hitting short irons and wedges off a tee. Long
irons and fairways woods, I would tee up, but I don't hit those too often,
so I'd rather have perfect lies with shorts irosn and wedges.

Date: 25 Sep 2006 16:50:18
From: Matt
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

>
> If you had the choice of either teeing up every shot (including
> second and third shots from the middle of the fairway) or lifting and
> placing every shot, what would you choose to do? If teeing the ball up,
> you can tee the ball to any height you choose. Or if lifting and
> placing, you can place the ball to give yourself the best lie possible.
> In other words, it's not lift and replace, which requires you to
> replace the ball back to its original position. If your ball is in a
> divot or low spot, you can place it on a nice patch of grass until
> you're happy with the lie.
> This question is meant for scratch and low-handicap golfers only,
> since high-handicappers probably don't really know how to hit the ball
> properly (with a descending blow) and would probably choose to tee it

I'd rather lift and place every shot.

Date: 25 Sep 2006 17:09:26
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Question for scratch and low-handicap golfers

No doubt you tee it up every time. Think of the distance you
could gain on the par fives. Not to mention getting height
on any other shot you hit. But what about putts? I don't think
I'd want to tee up a putt. Might be a trick question. I got
caught once on "I only need two gooses a round", I don't want
to get caught again.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, motofrankster@yahoo.com wrote:

> don't the pro's tee it up 100% of times from the tee-box... why would
> the fairway be any different?.... maybe i'm missing a reason though.
>
> don't forget they can tee if very low, which basically replicates a
> perfect fairway lie.
>
>