Putting Technique Question

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Date: 21 Apr 2007 11:27:01
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Putting Technique Question

I've been struggling with my putting for many months now (where my typically
mediocre putting had seriously deteriorated for no detectable reason). The
biggest issue was short putts and the biggest frustration was that I could
pull it (or push it) and not necessarily be able to tell by how the stroke
felt.

I played around with a long putter and ended up with a pretty screwey "left
hand low" configuration that somehow gave me a better sense of "what was
wrong with the stroke". I did a lot of work on the practice green and tried
it on the course a few times with very mixed results. I wouldn't swear that
I couldn't ultimately achieve better results if I stayed with it, but the
early on-the-course data was far from convincing.

A few days ago I was messing around with both putters (now that is surely a
demonstration of true commitment to my new putting style :-) and I ended up
really liking my old 'normal putter' with one simple set-up change. That was
to lower my hands on the grip until my left arm is basically straight. I use
a pretty short putter (32.5") and this has my hands pretty much down on the
bottom of the grip. It looks to me to be much like the putting setup that VJ
has been using lately.

For reasons unknown it seems to make a HUGE difference on my ability to hold
the line on short putts. This might well be yet another WOOD solution (Works
Only One Day) or maybe in this case it would be a WOOW solution (one week).
But I've never encountered anything that SEEMED to matter so much so quickly
on the putting green.

Anyone else ever run into this?

Thanks.

dave

Date: 24 Apr 2007 21:40:42
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:9ymWh.23884$PL.93@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I've been struggling with my putting for many months now (where my
> typically
> mediocre putting had seriously deteriorated for no detectable reason). The
> biggest issue was short putts and the biggest frustration was that I could
> pull it (or push it) and not necessarily be able to tell by how the stroke
> felt.
>
> I played around with a long putter and ended up with a pretty screwey
> "left
> hand low" configuration that somehow gave me a better sense of "what was
> wrong with the stroke". I did a lot of work on the practice green and
> tried
> it on the course a few times with very mixed results. I wouldn't swear
> that
> I couldn't ultimately achieve better results if I stayed with it, but the
> early on-the-course data was far from convincing.
>
> A few days ago I was messing around with both putters (now that is surely
> a
> demonstration of true commitment to my new putting style :-) and I ended
> up
> really liking my old 'normal putter' with one simple set-up change. That
> was
> to lower my hands on the grip until my left arm is basically straight. I
> use
> a pretty short putter (32.5") and this has my hands pretty much down on
> the
> bottom of the grip. It looks to me to be much like the putting setup that
> VJ
> has been using lately.
>
> For reasons unknown it seems to make a HUGE difference on my ability to
> hold
> the line on short putts. This might well be yet another WOOD solution
> (Works
> Only One Day) or maybe in this case it would be a WOOW solution (one
> week).
> But I've never encountered anything that SEEMED to matter so much so
> quickly
> on the putting green.
>
> Anyone else ever run into this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave

One of the best putting displays I've ever witnessed in my life was during
the first three rounds at the 1996 Masters, when Greg Norman was making
pretty much everything he looked at.

This prompted me to more closely examine his putting style, and I noticed
something very interesting.

He had both arms extended almost straight in his setup. Think about it;
this is quite unlike the styles of Nicklaus and Watson, both of whom putted
in a much more crouched-over position, with their left elbows pointing more
or less down the line of the putt (generally speaking).

The modern players tend to let their left arm hang a bit more, and stand
somewhat more upright (certainly more so than Nicklaus, whose back is closer
to parallel to the ground than it is perpendicular to it).

This "arms hanging down" style of putting allows for a very simple rocking
of the shoulders motion to move the putter back and through. It is an
extremely reliable method. Its reliability, I believe, stems from the fact
that there are very few moving parts to introduce variables into the stroke.

With the right grip pressure (fairly light) and a very still center (head),
it can also produce a nice feel once you get the hang of it. It helps, my
my opinion, to use a putter that is somewhat on the heavy side for this
method, but that may just be my own personal preference. It also helps to
be tall, but I've putted this way for years and no one has ever mistaken me
for a tall person.

I remember the week of the '97 Masters, Tiger remarked that he'd been having
some difficulty with his putting leading up to the tournament and his father
noticed he was crouching over a little bit more than normal. It's stuck in
my mind ever since that he commented on the importance of standing
straighter with his head UP (and his eyes down). I always putt best when
I'm doing just that.

Randy

Date: 24 Apr 2007 15:26:07
From: zumafan
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Apr 24, 7:17 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

> I have done a good deal of putting with and without a line on the ball. I've
> also done some work with a mirror in my den. I don't seem to have a
> particular problem in aiming. But I sure have a problem finding that little
> 'brown spec' on the green that was so obvious from behind the ball. I end up
> just aiming (from over the ball) again to find the spec (and then
> wondering).
>

Dave I have some comments for you, basically they're "what works for
me" type of comments.

First, I also putt with my hands low on the grip, and use a rock the
shoulders type of putting swing. No hands or wrists unless it's a very
long putt. Works really well.

I also recently made the switch to the reverse overlap grip that JVDP
and RB were discussing in a recent thread. THAT is very nice, hard to
believe such a small change can make such a big difference. I set up
with my right hand only on the putter, that way I don't forget to put
my left hand on top.

Regarding finding a spot in front of the ball to putt over. Doesn't
work for me. Either there's never a spot on my line or if I do happen
to find one, I'm focusing so much on that spot that it screws up my
speed.

The way that I do line up the putt depends on the type of putt. If
it's a short straight putt, or maybe up to one cup outside the hole,
I'll use a line on the ball to line up the putt and stroke it pretty
firmly. If it's up to 6 or 8 feet and very straight I'll do the same
thing. Anything longer and I get that speed issue again.

Any putt that doesn't fit the above paragraph (putts over 8 feet or
"feel" putts where you need the right combination of speed and break)
then I put the ball down with just white showing and trust my
instincts to make it or get it close.

I don't keep stats, but the process above has worked pretty well for
me. Just sayin'.

Date: 24 Apr 2007 22:34:38
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"zumafan" <mgeorg@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1177453567.093890.112940@t39g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 24, 7:17 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>
snip
> Regarding finding a spot in front of the ball to putt over. Doesn't
> work for me. Either there's never a spot on my line or if I do happen
> to find one, I'm focusing so much on that spot that it screws up my
> speed.
>
>
> The way that I do line up the putt depends on the type of putt. If
> it's a short straight putt, or maybe up to one cup outside the hole,
> I'll use a line on the ball to line up the putt and stroke it pretty
> firmly. If it's up to 6 or 8 feet and very straight I'll do the same
> thing. Anything longer and I get that speed issue again.
>
snip

Amen to that. It isn't like it happens on every shortish putt (say 7'), but
there have been a very large number of occurences of getting the line on the
ball just right, and leaving the ball on the front lip.

I still think the putting line on the ball is the best solution. But I have
osteo-arthritis in my knees, and can't squat down behind the ball when
lining up the line on the ball. You have to step back to see if the line is
right, then back down to adjust - can take too long, IMHO. Hmm, maybe the
right answer is to use the intermediate point when lining up the putting
line on the ball. Never thought about that before - interesting thought.

dave

Date: 24 Apr 2007 13:48:02
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

Date: 23 Apr 2007 23:01:38
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Apr 23, 9:15 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> I like the concept of finding a spot on your line a bit in front of the
> ball. But I really find this hard to do. The 'spot' almost always looks
> different from behind the ball vs. over the ball, and I am always wondering
> if it really is the same spot and often I 'just lose it'.
>
> Others have that problem when using that technique?

Last time I was in Golfsmith, I played around with a putting mirror
you use to check your eye & shoulder alignment. The mirror has
lines on it and a notch where you place the ball.

One thing I noticed is if I line it up from behind the ball so that
the
line on the mirror through the ball points at the cup, and then I
go around and get in correct position with my eyes over the line
and shoulders aligned, etc., it looks to me that the line is no
longer pointing at the cup!

I had to go back behind the ball to check that the line was really
still pointing at the cup. Then I got back in position over the ball,
and noticed the same thing again, that the line no longer looked like
it was pointing at the cup. But I trusted the line and stroked along
it and sank the putt, dead center, about 15 ft away.

I immediately went over to the training aid section to buy one, but
they were sold out. All they had was the demo model on the
ground at the putting green.

I don't know if that answers your question or not, but I think
you might be on to something.

Date: 24 Apr 2007 11:17:55
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1177394498.397416.264920@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 23, 9:15 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > I like the concept of finding a spot on your line a bit in front of the
> > ball. But I really find this hard to do. The 'spot' almost always looks
> > different from behind the ball vs. over the ball, and I am always
wondering
> > if it really is the same spot and often I 'just lose it'.
> >
> > Others have that problem when using that technique?
>
> Last time I was in Golfsmith, I played around with a putting mirror
> you use to check your eye & shoulder alignment. The mirror has
> lines on it and a notch where you place the ball.
>
> One thing I noticed is if I line it up from behind the ball so that
> the
> line on the mirror through the ball points at the cup, and then I
> go around and get in correct position with my eyes over the line
> and shoulders aligned, etc., it looks to me that the line is no
> longer pointing at the cup!
>
> I had to go back behind the ball to check that the line was really
> still pointing at the cup. Then I got back in position over the ball,
> and noticed the same thing again, that the line no longer looked like
> it was pointing at the cup. But I trusted the line and stroked along
> it and sank the putt, dead center, about 15 ft away.
>
> I immediately went over to the training aid section to buy one, but
> they were sold out. All they had was the demo model on the
> ground at the putting green.
>
> I don't know if that answers your question or not, but I think
> you might be on to something.
>

I have done a good deal of putting with and without a line on the ball. I've
also done some work with a mirror in my den. I don't seem to have a
particular problem in aiming. But I sure have a problem finding that little
'brown spec' on the green that was so obvious from behind the ball. I end up
just aiming (from over the ball) again to find the spec (and then
wondering).

But I know that others use this effectively.

dave

Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:19:28
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Apr 23, 7:19 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com> wrote
> > Center of stance doesn't work unless the hands are at the same
> > height on the shaft. If the left hand is lower (for normal
> > stance), the natural center is closer to the front foot. If the
> > right hand is lower (cross handed), the natural center is further
> > back.
>
> > Putting is naturally a big pendulum on an inclined plane. The back
> > and arms define where the plane lies. You gotta bend WAY WAY
> > over (think Nicklaus) to get to something close to straight back-
> > straight thru.
>
> > Of course enough good practice and a good eye can make a lot
> > of bad strokes work ok.

> If you can rock your shoulders up/down you really can achieve a STSB stroke
> (for short putts anyway) without bending way over like Jack or Hubert Green.
>
> dave
>
> ps. I'm not sure that I really ever achieved that.

I think if you try keeping a fairly straight back, elbows and wrists
fixed,
bent at the waist a moderate amount, and make a gentle turn at your
shoulder (obviously on a plane, not SBST), so by the eye the putter
goes inside the line on the backswing and swing, you can get
reasonably
good consistency with little practice. Even with a featherlight grip,
because
the grip is not compensating for errors made at the shoulders.

It ain't that hard given the amount you play. Think Ben Crenshaw.

-PA

Date: 23 Apr 2007 22:56:00
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1177366768.002430.89030@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 23, 7:19 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>
> I think if you try keeping a fairly straight back, elbows and wrists
> fixed,
> bent at the waist a moderate amount, and make a gentle turn at your
> shoulder (obviously on a plane, not SBST), so by the eye the putter
> goes inside the line on the backswing and swing, you can get
> reasonably
> good consistency with little practice. Even with a featherlight grip,
> because
> the grip is not compensating for errors made at the shoulders.
>
> It ain't that hard given the amount you play. Think Ben Crenshaw.
>
>
> -PA
>

At this point for the first time in a long time I'm satisfied with my stroke
mechanics. And I got there without overhauling all that I worked on (putting
wise) these past two years. Of course this is golf, so the story may be
different tomorrow :-)

dave

Date: 23 Apr 2007 06:57:37
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Apr 21, 6:27 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> I've been struggling with my putting for many months now (where my typically
> mediocre putting had seriously deteriorated for no detectable reason). The
> biggest issue was short putts and the biggest frustration was that I could
> pull it (or push it) and not necessarily be able to tell by how the stroke
> felt.
>
> I played around with a long putter and ended up with a pretty screwey "left
> hand low" configuration that somehow gave me a better sense of "what was
> wrong with the stroke". I did a lot of work on the practice green and tried
> it on the course a few times with very mixed results. I wouldn't swear that
> I couldn't ultimately achieve better results if I stayed with it, but the
> early on-the-course data was far from convincing.
>
> A few days ago I was messing around with both putters (now that is surely a
> demonstration of true commitment to my new putting style :-) and I ended up
> really liking my old 'normal putter' with one simple set-up change. That was
> to lower my hands on the grip until my left arm is basically straight. I use
> a pretty short putter (32.5") and this has my hands pretty much down on the
> bottom of the grip. It looks to me to be much like the putting setup that VJ
> has been using lately.
>
> For reasons unknown it seems to make a HUGE difference on my ability to hold
> the line on short putts. This might well be yet another WOOD solution (Works
> Only One Day) or maybe in this case it would be a WOOW solution (one week).
> But I've never encountered anything that SEEMED to matter so much so quickly
> on the putting green.
>
> Anyone else ever run into this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave

Putting is all about being relaxed and confident. Any thought you have
on might do this and might do that will cause you to either do the
thing you are thinking about or the opposite. Thinkk "don't pull" and
you will either pull or push.

R&B on this board has some great putting advice. One thing is finding
an aiming point on the green just in front of the ball and aligning to
that. It increases confidence in aim and lets me relax and focus more
on feel for distance.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:15:26
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote in message
news:1177336657.211137.113880@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 21, 6:27 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>
> Putting is all about being relaxed and confident. Any thought you have
> on might do this and might do that will cause you to either do the
> thing you are thinking about or the opposite. Thinkk "don't pull" and
> you will either pull or push.
>
> R&B on this board has some great putting advice. One thing is finding
> an aiming point on the green just in front of the ball and aligning to
> that. It increases confidence in aim and lets me relax and focus more
> on feel for distance.
>

I agree wholeheartedly about the relaxed and confident thing. But I found a
similar (or opposite - not sure) approach that was also useful in lag
putting. One thing that I've noticed about my practice lag putting vs. on
the course lag putting is that my practice lags are very smooth and easy
strokes. I have trouble avoiding that on the course, tending to
subconsciously make teeney mid-stroke adjustments. This is not a good
thing.

One thing that helped this is something I'll called "reverse confidence". It
is the thought that "hey - you are mortal and you will 3 putt occasionally.
Just let it happen and don't worry about it". I found this reverse
confidence somewhat helpful, although short putting has been my biggest
dilemna this year.

I like the concept of finding a spot on your line a bit in front of the
ball. But I really find this hard to do. The 'spot' almost always looks
different from behind the ball vs. over the ball, and I am always wondering
if it really is the same spot and often I 'just lose it'.

Others have that problem when using that technique?

dave

ps. In the meantime I am very satisfied with this 'straight left arm'
putting setup and results. Time will tell.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 03:48:31
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Apr 22, 11:59 am, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>
> news:2NHWh.3995$j63.1988@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:5uyWh.101539$mo1.470693@weber.videotron.net...
>
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >>news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> >> > "Rex" <rex...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
> >> >> Snip
> >> > snip
>
> >> >> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting.
> >> >> It
> >> >> certainly
> >> >> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
> >> >> explains why
> >> > have
> >> >> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
> >> >> library) then I
> >> >> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
> >> >> straight back
> >> >> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full
> >> >> shot.
> >> >> Visit
> >> > his
> >> >> site.
> >> >>http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
> >> >> Have a look at the learning curve.
> >> >> Interesting at least.
>
> >> >> Rex
>
> >> > I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type
> >> > stroke.
> >> > But
> >> > haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that
> >> > would
> >> > seem a more
> >> > sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But
> >> > hey -
> >> > this is
> >> > golf :-)
>
> >> > dave
>
> >> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or
> >> heel
> >> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.
>
> > Mine is face balanced, center shaft type.
>
> > dave
>
> Since the face balanced design swings like a pendulum, the SBST
> stroke, with the ball positioned in the center of your stance, is
> probably the most effective stroke for that kind of putter.

Center of stance doesn't work unless the hands are at the same
height on the shaft. If the left hand is lower (for normal
stance), the natural center is closer to the front foot. If the
right hand is lower (cross handed), the natural center is further
back.

Putting is naturally a big pendulum on an inclined plane. The back
and arms define where the plane lies. You gotta bend WAY WAY
over (think Nicklaus) to get to something close to straight back-
straight thru.

Of course enough good practice and a good eye can make a lot
of bad strokes work ok.

-PA

Date: 23 Apr 2007 11:19:09
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1177325311.386807.110550@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 22, 11:59 am, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:2NHWh.3995$j63.1988@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
snip.
>
> Center of stance doesn't work unless the hands are at the same
> height on the shaft. If the left hand is lower (for normal
> stance), the natural center is closer to the front foot. If the
> right hand is lower (cross handed), the natural center is further
> back.
>
> Putting is naturally a big pendulum on an inclined plane. The back
> and arms define where the plane lies. You gotta bend WAY WAY
> over (think Nicklaus) to get to something close to straight back-
> straight thru.
>
> Of course enough good practice and a good eye can make a lot
> of bad strokes work ok.
>
> -PA

If you can rock your shoulders up/down you really can achieve a STSB stroke
(for short putts anyway) without bending way over like Jack or Hubert Green.

dave

ps. I'm not sure that I really ever achieved that.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 03:44:18
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

> So I went to the course one day with one goal only. And that was to putt
> with no excess tension, good/relaxed technique, and solid ball-striking (if
> there is such a thing in putting). OK then - 3 goals if you are picky :-)
>
> I was really surprised to encounter the worst putting that I had encountered
> so far. I was not expecting that. It still seems like good advice but I
> haven't tried that again - at least not in such a single minded fashion.

You need good mechanics to be able to hold the putter lightly. The
stroke
itself keeps the putter on line. If you HAVE to deathgrip the putter,
chances are the stroke itself has mechanical components that work
to screw it up.

The stroke itself can be a miniaturized full swing. There is only one
swing plane. Bend at the waist, not in your back. Two handed grip.
Most of the movement at the shoulders/back. Putter comes back
slightly inside a straight line, and goes through slightly inside
(because
the swing is a big circle around the shoulders).

And don't forget to be the ball, Danny.

-PA

Date: 22 Apr 2007 07:47:13
From: skewe
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or heel
> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.- Hide quoted text -

I saw this http://www.golfer-review.com/prdt.php?id=C1408_Odyssey_Golf_Collegiate_2-Ball_Putters

"According to Callaway's research, more than 70-percent of golfers
have a tendency to putt to the right of the hole.

But in its own testing, Callaway says, 68-percent of golfers showed
improvement in accuracy after switching to the 2-Ball. Yannuzzi also
pointed out the "White Hot" urethane insert and the weighting of the
clubhead as positives with the 2-Ball. "

Date: 22 Apr 2007 11:36:49
From: David
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:27:01 GMT, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

<snipped >

>For reasons unknown it seems to make a HUGE difference on my ability to hold
>the line on short putts. This might well be yet another WOOD solution (Works
>Only One Day) or maybe in this case it would be a WOOW solution (one week).
>But I've never encountered anything that SEEMED to matter so much so quickly
>on the putting green.
>
>Anyone else ever run into this?

This is a "fix" that will last you a very long time. I already
responed to a similar post, in which I recommended lowering the hands
for the short putts. It is equivalent to choking up on a bat when you
want to swing for control, rather than for the fences. You can make a
normal stroke without worrying about losing the line.

>Thanks.
>
>dave

David

Date: 22 Apr 2007 12:40:46
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"David" <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote in message
news:lram23dk8uqvdqqdvmkvgdr07kuunv795m@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 11:27:01 GMT, "Dave Lee"
> <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> >For reasons unknown it seems to make a HUGE difference on my ability to
hold
> >the line on short putts. This might well be yet another WOOD solution
(Works
> >Only One Day) or maybe in this case it would be a WOOW solution (one
week).
> >But I've never encountered anything that SEEMED to matter so much so
quickly
> >on the putting green.
> >
> >Anyone else ever run into this?
>
> This is a "fix" that will last you a very long time. I already
> responed to a similar post, in which I recommended lowering the hands
> for the short putts. It is equivalent to choking up on a bat when you
> want to swing for control, rather than for the fences. You can make a
> normal stroke without worrying about losing the line.
>
>
> >Thanks.
> >
> >dave
>
> David

Hope that you are right.

My perspective on this is not a "choking up on a bat" model. My problem
didn't seem to be clubhead path (where a shorter handle matters), but face
angle at impact. What seems to be key to me is a straight left arm just like
a normal golf swing. Interestingly, for now my lag putts are hit with a more
'normal' set-up.

dave

Date: 23 Apr 2007 12:02:21
From: David
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:40:46 GMT, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

<snipped >

>Hope that you are right.
>
>My perspective on this is not a "choking up on a bat" model. My problem
>didn't seem to be clubhead path (where a shorter handle matters), but face
>angle at impact. What seems to be key to me is a straight left arm just like
>a normal golf swing. Interestingly, for now my lag putts are hit with a more
>'normal' set-up.

I am not sure how you can view path and face angle as separate
entities. If you putt from the shoulders and keep the club face
squaring up at impact, you will have no problems. The point about
choking up was that I could basically make the same pass at the ball
as if were stroking a 20 footer, and by moving my hands down the
shaft, the ball would automatically not go as far.

By not choking down, there is an urge to overcontrol the putter,
which in my case, led to the putter head getting off the correct line
at some point during the stroke.

It is important to note that it is absolutely critical that the head
remain still on the short putts. There is no margin for error

>dave

David

Date: 22 Apr 2007 07:56:12
From: Rex
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

Snip

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:9ymWh.23884$PL.93@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I've been struggling with my putting for many months now (where my
> typically

> really liking my old 'normal putter' with one simple set-up change.
>
> Anyone else ever run into this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It certainly
gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also explains why have
been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow - library) then I
think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with straight back
and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot. Visit his
site.
http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
Have a look at the learning curve.
Interesting at least.

Rex

Date: 21 Apr 2007 23:20:34
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com > wrote in message news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
> Snip
snip
> >
> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It certainly
> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also explains why
have
> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow - library) then I
> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with straight back
> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot. Visit
his
> site.
> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
> Have a look at the learning curve.
> Interesting at least.
>
> Rex
>
>
I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type stroke. But
haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that would seem a more
sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But hey - this is
golf :-)

dave

Date: 22 Apr 2007 19:24:16
From: Rex
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
>> Snip
> snip
>> >
>> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It
>> certainly
>> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also explains why
> have
>> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow - library) then I
>> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with straight
>> back
>> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot. Visit
> his
>> site.
>> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
>> Have a look at the learning curve.
>> Interesting at least.
>>
>> Rex
>>
>>
> I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type stroke. But
> haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that would seem a
> more
> sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But hey - this is
> golf :-)
>
> dave
>
I used a long putter on and off - last two years have been with long putter
until recently when I went back to short putter. Now exploring Stan Utley's
technique as I cannot go SBST. Never have been able to.

Rex

Date: 21 Apr 2007 21:02:06
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
>> Snip
> snip
>> >
>> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It
>> certainly
>> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
>> explains why
> have
>> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
>> library) then I
>> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
>> straight back
>> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot.
>> Visit
> his
>> site.
>> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
>> Have a look at the learning curve.
>> Interesting at least.
>>
>> Rex
>>
>>
> I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type stroke.
> But
> haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that would
> seem a more
> sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But hey -
> this is
> golf :-)
>
> dave
>
>

What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or heel
weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.

Date: 22 Apr 2007 11:36:30
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5uyWh.101539$mo1.470693@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
> >> Snip
> > snip
> >> >
> >> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It
> >> certainly
> >> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
> >> explains why
> > have
> >> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
> >> library) then I
> >> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
> >> straight back
> >> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot.
> >> Visit
> > his
> >> site.
> >> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
> >> Have a look at the learning curve.
> >> Interesting at least.
> >>
> >> Rex
> >>
> >>
> > I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type stroke.
> > But
> > haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that would
> > seem a more
> > sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But hey -
> > this is
> > golf :-)
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or heel
> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.
>
>

Mine is face balanced, center shaft type.

dave

Date: 22 Apr 2007 11:59:00
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:2NHWh.3995$j63.1988@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5uyWh.101539$mo1.470693@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
>> >> Snip
>> > snip
>> >> >
>> >> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting.
>> >> It
>> >> certainly
>> >> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
>> >> explains why
>> > have
>> >> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
>> >> library) then I
>> >> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
>> >> straight back
>> >> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full
>> >> shot.
>> >> Visit
>> > his
>> >> site.
>> >> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
>> >> Have a look at the learning curve.
>> >> Interesting at least.
>> >>
>> >> Rex
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type
>> > stroke.
>> > But
>> > haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that
>> > would
>> > seem a more
>> > sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But
>> > hey -
>> > this is
>> > golf :-)
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or
>> heel
>> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.
>>
>>
>
> Mine is face balanced, center shaft type.
>
> dave

Since the face balanced design swings like a pendulum, the SBST
stroke, with the ball positioned in the center of your stance, is
probably the most effective stroke for that kind of putter. If your
natural putting stroke is a "bit" inside-square-inside then the
anser style design (about 45 deg. toe down), with the ball
positioned forward of center, will likely work better. A heel
shafted, toe down, putter best suits the "very" inside-square-inside
stroke and may help the most if you tend to pull putts. You might
want to have someone watch your stroke from down the line to
determine your natural stroke type, then try some putters better
suited to that stroke type.

The idea here is that you don't want your natural stroke type to be
fighting with the way the putter wants to swing. Also make sure
that your eyes are over the ball or just a bit inside the line at
address. If your eyes are too much inside the line, or outside the
line, your ability to aim and see the line will be negatively
affected.

Your putter is very short, which is good since your arms will be
straighter so it should be easier to perform a pendulum stroke with
minimal wrist action. There are two things with short putters to be
aware of. The head will feel lighter which could cause long putts
to come up short, and some golfers have a tendancy to stand more
upright on long putts which may affect your aim and alignment.

Gary

Date: 22 Apr 2007 16:59:34
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:WCLWh.7035$q97.56555@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:2NHWh.3995$j63.1988@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:5uyWh.101539$mo1.470693@weber.videotron.net...
>>>
>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>> news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> >
>>> > "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
>>> >> Snip
>>> > snip
>>> >> >
>>> >> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting. It
>>> >> certainly
>>> >> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
>>> >> explains why
>>> > have
>>> >> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
>>> >> library) then I
>>> >> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
>>> >> straight back
>>> >> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full shot.
>>> >> Visit
>>> > his
>>> >> site.
>>> >> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
>>> >> Have a look at the learning curve.
>>> >> Interesting at least.
>>> >>
>>> >> Rex
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type stroke.
>>> > But
>>> > haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that would
>>> > seem a more
>>> > sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But hey -
>>> > this is
>>> > golf :-)
>>> >
>>> > dave
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or heel
>>> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and stroke.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Mine is face balanced, center shaft type.
>>
>> dave
>
> Since the face balanced design swings like a pendulum, the SBST stroke,
> with the ball positioned in the center of your stance, is probably the
> most effective stroke for that kind of putter. If your natural putting
> stroke is a "bit" inside-square-inside then the anser style design (about
> 45 deg. toe down), with the ball positioned forward of center, will likely
> work better. A heel shafted, toe down, putter best suits the "very"
> inside-square-inside stroke and may help the most if you tend to pull
> putts. You might want to have someone watch your stroke from down the
> line to determine your natural stroke type, then try some putters better
> suited to that stroke type.
>
> The idea here is that you don't want your natural stroke type to be
> fighting with the way the putter wants to swing. Also make sure that your
> eyes are over the ball or just a bit inside the line at address. If your
> eyes are too much inside the line, or outside the line, your ability to
> aim and see the line will be negatively affected.
>
> Your putter is very short, which is good since your arms will be
> straighter so it should be easier to perform a pendulum stroke with
> minimal wrist action. There are two things with short putters to be aware
> of. The head will feel lighter which could cause long putts to come up
> short, and some golfers have a tendancy to stand more upright on long
> putts which may affect your aim and alignment.
>
> Gary
>
>
Far more important than technique is aim OF THE CLUBFACE. You can "get
away" with a ton of bad strokes if your face is aimed correctly: you'd have
to have a seriously not-in-line stroke at impact to make much of a
difference in the direction the ball goes. Not that it is irrelevant: it is
just WAY down from face orientation: and whatever is after THAT is even
less, except distance control - a function of a repeatable pace and
calibration of backswing amplitude. Use any technique you want, and grip
you want (as long as the putter is stable). But control the face aim, the
pace, and the length of stroke appropriate for the putt in hand.

The less manipulation (SBST), the better.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 08:34:56
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:I_PWh.2642$TD3.1981@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:WCLWh.7035$q97.56555@wagner.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:2NHWh.3995$j63.1988@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5uyWh.101539$mo1.470693@weber.videotron.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:6%wWh.24034$PL.5329@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>> >
>>>> > "Rex" <rexroh@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> > news:f0dq8t$548$1@aioe.org...
>>>> >> Snip
>>>> > snip
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> I am in the process of reading Stan Utley's book on putting.
>>>> >> It
>>>> >> certainly
>>>> >> gives a different view on putting from Dave Pelz and also
>>>> >> explains why
>>>> > have
>>>> >> been missing some putts. If you can get a copy (borrow -
>>>> >> library) then I
>>>> >> think it may be worth a read. I have always struggled with
>>>> >> straight back
>>>> >> and straight thru. Stan advocates putting as a small full
>>>> >> shot.
>>>> >> Visit
>>>> > his
>>>> >> site.
>>>> >> http://www.stanutleygolf.com/
>>>> >> Have a look at the learning curve.
>>>> >> Interesting at least.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Rex
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > I've wondered about SBST strokes vs. the barn stroke type
>>>> > stroke.
>>>> > But
>>>> > haven't taken a step in that direction. In retrospect that
>>>> > would
>>>> > seem a more
>>>> > sensible step that a screwey stroke with a long putter. But
>>>> > hey -
>>>> > this is
>>>> > golf :-)
>>>> >
>>>> > dave
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> What kind of putter do you use? Face balanced, toe weighted or
>>>> heel
>>>> weighted. Makes a difference in how you should setup and
>>>> stroke.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mine is face balanced, center shaft type.
>>>
>>> dave
>>
>> Since the face balanced design swings like a pendulum, the SBST
>> stroke, with the ball positioned in the center of your stance, is
>> probably the most effective stroke for that kind of putter. If
>> your natural putting stroke is a "bit" inside-square-inside then
>> the anser style design (about 45 deg. toe down), with the ball
>> positioned forward of center, will likely work better. A heel
>> shafted, toe down, putter best suits the "very"
>> inside-square-inside stroke and may help the most if you tend to
>> pull putts. You might want to have someone watch your stroke
>> from down the line to determine your natural stroke type, then
>> try some putters better suited to that stroke type.
>>
>> The idea here is that you don't want your natural stroke type to
>> be fighting with the way the putter wants to swing. Also make
>> sure that your eyes are over the ball or just a bit inside the
>> line at address. If your eyes are too much inside the line, or
>> outside the line, your ability to aim and see the line will be
>> negatively affected.
>>
>> Your putter is very short, which is good since your arms will be
>> straighter so it should be easier to perform a pendulum stroke
>> with minimal wrist action. There are two things with short
>> putters to be aware of. The head will feel lighter which could
>> cause long putts to come up short, and some golfers have a
>> tendancy to stand more upright on long putts which may affect
>> your aim and alignment.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
> Far more important than technique is aim OF THE CLUBFACE. You can
> "get away" with a ton of bad strokes if your face is aimed
> correctly: you'd have to have a seriously not-in-line stroke at
> impact to make much of a difference in the direction the ball
> goes. Not that it is irrelevant: it is just WAY down from face
> orientation: and whatever is after THAT is even less, except
> distance control - a function of a repeatable pace and calibration
> of backswing amplitude. Use any technique you want, and grip you
> want (as long as the putter is stable). But control the face aim,
> the pace, and the length of stroke appropriate for the putt in
> hand.
>
> The less manipulation (SBST), the better.
>

I wasn't really talking about technique, more about how different
clubface designs and ball position can work with or against the
golfer depending on his natural stroke type. But SBST for many IS
manipulation, since there will always be at least a slight arc to
the clubhead path by virtue of the fact that the shaft doesn't hang
perpendicular to the ground. (If it does hang perpendicular to the
ground the eyes would be outside the target line and the heel would
be up unless the lie angle was adjusted drastically.) If you want to
use SBST you would be increasing your odds by using a face balanced
putter. As with all the other clubs in the bag, the putter should be
fitted to the golfers swing. It's sometimes hard to remember that
when we visit a big box golf store and see a few hundred putters on
display.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 13:45:27
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:AJ1Xh.27551$q97.148979@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> I wasn't really talking about technique, more about how different
> clubface designs and ball position can work with or against the
> golfer depending on his natural stroke type. But SBST for many IS
> manipulation, since there will always be at least a slight arc to
> the clubhead path by virtue of the fact that the shaft doesn't hang
> perpendicular to the ground. (If it does hang perpendicular to the
> ground the eyes would be outside the target line and the heel would
> be up unless the lie angle was adjusted drastically.) If you want to
> use SBST you would be increasing your odds by using a face balanced
> putter. As with all the other clubs in the bag, the putter should be
> fitted to the golfers swing. It's sometimes hard to remember that
> when we visit a big box golf store and see a few hundred putters on
> display.
>
>

You do not need a vertical shaft to achieve an SBST stroke without
manipulation (unless you view a "shoulders only-shoulder rocking motion" to
be manipulation).

dave

Date: 23 Apr 2007 18:58:36
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:XL2Xh.69$296.26@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:AJ1Xh.27551$q97.148979@wagner.videotron.net...
>>
>> I wasn't really talking about technique, more about how different
>> clubface designs and ball position can work with or against the
>> golfer depending on his natural stroke type. But SBST for many IS
>> manipulation, since there will always be at least a slight arc to
>> the clubhead path by virtue of the fact that the shaft doesn't
>> hang
>> perpendicular to the ground. (If it does hang perpendicular to
>> the
>> ground the eyes would be outside the target line and the heel
>> would
>> be up unless the lie angle was adjusted drastically.) If you want
>> to
>> use SBST you would be increasing your odds by using a face
>> balanced
>> putter. As with all the other clubs in the bag, the putter should
>> be
>> fitted to the golfers swing. It's sometimes hard to remember that
>> when we visit a big box golf store and see a few hundred putters
>> on
>> display.
>>
>>
>
> You do not need a vertical shaft to achieve an SBST stroke without
> manipulation (unless you view a "shoulders only-shoulder rocking
> motion" to
> be manipulation).
>
> dave
>
>

If your arms are hanging directly under the shoulders, the
"shoulders only rocking motion" will allow the arms to swing
straight back and straight through. The putterhead, because of the
lie angle of the shaft, has to move on a elliptical arc. The SBST
stroke refers to the arms, not the putter head. If you want the
putter head to move SBST you have to have the shaft perpendicular to
the ground or manipulate your stroke. Try it with a longer shafted
club like your driver where it's easier to see the arc.

Date: 23 Apr 2007 23:19:08
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:eSaXh.53115$wC.215307@weber.videotron.net...
>
>
> If your arms are hanging directly under the shoulders, the
> "shoulders only rocking motion" will allow the arms to swing
> straight back and straight through. The putterhead, because of the
> lie angle of the shaft, has to move on a elliptical arc. The SBST
> stroke refers to the arms, not the putter head. If you want the
> putter head to move SBST you have to have the shaft perpendicular to
> the ground or manipulate your stroke. Try it with a longer shafted
> club like your driver where it's easier to see the arc.
>
>

That is not the case. Imagine a big door that is turned 90* so the hinges
are along the top. Everything on that door is SBST as you 'open it'. Draw a
line from the upper left to the lower right - heck cut it out. How you have
this 'more horizontal than vertical' fixed piece. But it is still moving
SBST.

Or imagine a putter with a 2' wide face (direction to/from your feet at
address). Get in a 'shaft vertical' stance and make a SBST stroke. Then add
a second shaft that connects the tip end of the face to your hands. Make the
same stroke (still SBST). Then remove the vertical shaft. Still SBST.

You don't need a vertical shaft.

dave

Date: 23 Apr 2007 21:02:38
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:M9bXh.4452$j63.790@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eSaXh.53115$wC.215307@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>>
>> If your arms are hanging directly under the shoulders, the
>> "shoulders only rocking motion" will allow the arms to swing
>> straight back and straight through. The putterhead, because of
>> the
>> lie angle of the shaft, has to move on a elliptical arc. The SBST
>> stroke refers to the arms, not the putter head. If you want the
>> putter head to move SBST you have to have the shaft perpendicular
>> to
>> the ground or manipulate your stroke. Try it with a longer
>> shafted
>> club like your driver where it's easier to see the arc.
>>
>>
>
> That is not the case. Imagine a big door that is turned 90* so the
> hinges
> are along the top. Everything on that door is SBST as you 'open
> it'. Draw a
> line from the upper left to the lower right - heck cut it out. How
> you have
> this 'more horizontal than vertical' fixed piece. But it is still
> moving
> SBST.
>
> Or imagine a putter with a 2' wide face (direction to/from your
> feet at
> address). Get in a 'shaft vertical' stance and make a SBST stroke.
> Then add
> a second shaft that connects the tip end of the face to your
> hands. Make the
> same stroke (still SBST). Then remove the vertical shaft. Still
> SBST.
>
> You don't need a vertical shaft.
>
> dave
>

OK Dave. Since I can't convince you I googled SBST. Here's some of
what I found:

From the Putting Arc website:
www.theputtingarc.com/puttingarc/pages/theory/straight_back.htm

"There are only two ways for the putter to travel straight back and
straight through:
1. The spinal axis of rotation must be horizontal.
or
2. You must manipulate the club face and club path during the
stroke."

or how about Todd Sones:
http://www.toddsones.com/pdf/lineup.pdf

Anyway my original point to you was concerning putter design vis a
vis stroke type and that still stands. I don't want to argue about
SBST with you. I know what I have been taught has been proven with
fitting experience and putter swing videos.

Gary

Date: 24 Apr 2007 13:26:48
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:QGcXh.58565$wC.243806@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:M9bXh.4452$j63.790@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:eSaXh.53115$wC.215307@weber.videotron.net...
> >>
> >>
> >> If your arms are hanging directly under the shoulders, the
> >> "shoulders only rocking motion" will allow the arms to swing
> >> straight back and straight through. The putterhead, because of
> >> the
> >> lie angle of the shaft, has to move on a elliptical arc. The SBST
> >> stroke refers to the arms, not the putter head. If you want the
> >> putter head to move SBST you have to have the shaft perpendicular
> >> to
> >> the ground or manipulate your stroke. Try it with a longer
> >> shafted
> >> club like your driver where it's easier to see the arc.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > That is not the case. Imagine a big door that is turned 90* so the
> > hinges
> > are along the top. Everything on that door is SBST as you 'open
> > it'. Draw a
> > line from the upper left to the lower right - heck cut it out. How
> > you have
> > this 'more horizontal than vertical' fixed piece. But it is still
> > moving
> > SBST.
> >
> > Or imagine a putter with a 2' wide face (direction to/from your
> > feet at
> > address). Get in a 'shaft vertical' stance and make a SBST stroke.
> > Then add
> > a second shaft that connects the tip end of the face to your
> > hands. Make the
> > same stroke (still SBST). Then remove the vertical shaft. Still
> > SBST.
> >
> > You don't need a vertical shaft.
> >
> > dave
> >
>
> OK Dave. Since I can't convince you I googled SBST. Here's some of
> what I found:
>
> From the Putting Arc website:
> www.theputtingarc.com/puttingarc/pages/theory/straight_back.htm
>
> "There are only two ways for the putter to travel straight back and
> straight through:
> 1. The spinal axis of rotation must be horizontal.
> or
> 2. You must manipulate the club face and club path during the
> stroke."
>
> or how about Todd Sones:
> http://www.toddsones.com/pdf/lineup.pdf
>
> Anyway my original point to you was concerning putter design vis a
> vis stroke type and that still stands. I don't want to argue about
> SBST with you. I know what I have been taught has been proven with
> fitting experience and putter swing videos.
>
> Gary

The putting arc website is correct in above (although I'm not sure exactly
what a 'SPINAL axis of rotation' is). But a horizontal axis of rotation is
exactly what is required. And they are also correct when they point out that
this action is not natural for a golfer (not this one anyway). Your shoulder
action is just like you've got an 'axis of rotation' sticking out your back
and out your Adam's apple at 90 degrees to the target line (your shoulders
must rock around this virtual axis).

dave

Date: 25 Apr 2007 00:13:20
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:sAnXh.7992$3P3.5110@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:QGcXh.58565$wC.243806@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:M9bXh.4452$j63.790@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:eSaXh.53115$wC.215307@weber.videotron.net...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If your arms are hanging directly under the shoulders, the
>> >> "shoulders only rocking motion" will allow the arms to swing
>> >> straight back and straight through. The putterhead, because of
>> >> the
>> >> lie angle of the shaft, has to move on a elliptical arc. The
>> >> SBST
>> >> stroke refers to the arms, not the putter head. If you want
>> >> the
>> >> putter head to move SBST you have to have the shaft
>> >> perpendicular
>> >> to
>> >> the ground or manipulate your stroke. Try it with a longer
>> >> shafted
>> >> club like your driver where it's easier to see the arc.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > That is not the case. Imagine a big door that is turned 90* so
>> > the
>> > hinges
>> > are along the top. Everything on that door is SBST as you 'open
>> > it'. Draw a
>> > line from the upper left to the lower right - heck cut it out.
>> > How
>> > you have
>> > this 'more horizontal than vertical' fixed piece. But it is
>> > still
>> > moving
>> > SBST.
>> >
>> > Or imagine a putter with a 2' wide face (direction to/from your
>> > feet at
>> > address). Get in a 'shaft vertical' stance and make a SBST
>> > stroke.
>> > Then add
>> > a second shaft that connects the tip end of the face to your
>> > hands. Make the
>> > same stroke (still SBST). Then remove the vertical shaft. Still
>> > SBST.
>> >
>> > You don't need a vertical shaft.
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>>
>> OK Dave. Since I can't convince you I googled SBST. Here's some
>> of
>> what I found:
>>
>> From the Putting Arc website:
>> www.theputtingarc.com/puttingarc/pages/theory/straight_back.htm
>>
>> "There are only two ways for the putter to travel straight back
>> and
>> straight through:
>> 1. The spinal axis of rotation must be horizontal.
>> or
>> 2. You must manipulate the club face and club path during the
>> stroke."
>>
>> or how about Todd Sones:
>> http://www.toddsones.com/pdf/lineup.pdf
>>
>> Anyway my original point to you was concerning putter design vis
>> a
>> vis stroke type and that still stands. I don't want to argue
>> about
>> SBST with you. I know what I have been taught has been proven
>> with
>> fitting experience and putter swing videos.
>>
>> Gary
>
> The putting arc website is correct in above (although I'm not sure
> exactly
> what a 'SPINAL axis of rotation' is). But a horizontal axis of
> rotation is
> exactly what is required. And they are also correct when they
> point out that
> this action is not natural for a golfer (not this one anyway).
> Your shoulder
> action is just like you've got an 'axis of rotation' sticking out
> your back
> and out your Adam's apple at 90 degrees to the target line (your
> shoulders
> must rock around this virtual axis).
>
> dave
>
>

Hey Dave, check this out. Very interesting site on putting and this
rather long tip on: "Stroke Path Straight or Arc? -- BOTH!" Seems
like we're both right.

http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/path.html

Date: 25 Apr 2007 11:07:53
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:DNAXh.69247$wC.429277@weber.videotron.net...
>
snip
>
> Hey Dave, check this out. Very interesting site on putting and this
> rather long tip on: "Stroke Path Straight or Arc? -- BOTH!" Seems
> like we're both right.
>
> http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/path.html
>
>
>

Geoff Mangum (PuttingZone guy) is the absolute kind of putting analysis. It
is too much analysis even for me :-)

dave

Date: 25 Apr 2007 16:06:04
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:dEGXh.652$296.401@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:DNAXh.69247$wC.429277@weber.videotron.net...
>>
> snip
>>
>> Hey Dave, check this out. Very interesting site on putting and
>> this
>> rather long tip on: "Stroke Path Straight or Arc? -- BOTH!"
>> Seems
>> like we're both right.
>>
>> http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/path.html
>>
>>
>>
>
> Geoff Mangum (PuttingZone guy) is the absolute kind of putting
> analysis. It
> is too much analysis even for me :-)
>
> dave
>
>

Wow. I kind of thought it would be right up your alley :^)

Gary

Date: 21 Apr 2007 11:51:25
From: Otto
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:9ymWh.23884$PL.93@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Anyone else ever run into this?

I find that my changes in putting simply refocus my efforts on the basics.

Light grip(hold it like a wounded squirrel)

Silent legs and head(hear the ball fall into the pocket--do not watch it)

Sweet spot contact(harder than it sounds--a round ball and a flat surface
makes for a tiny sweet spot)

Whether I change equipment or technique, it places the focus back on these
items and my putting improves. After a while, confidence inspires laziness,
the basics fall out of focus, and another change is required to bring it
back.

Otto

Date: 21 Apr 2007 23:25:46
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:CpqWh.16699$qB4.15945@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:9ymWh.23884$PL.93@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Anyone else ever run into this?
>
> I find that my changes in putting simply refocus my efforts on the basics.
>
> Light grip(hold it like a wounded squirrel)
>
> Silent legs and head(hear the ball fall into the pocket--do not watch it)
>
> Sweet spot contact(harder than it sounds--a round ball and a flat surface
> makes for a tiny sweet spot)
>
> Whether I change equipment or technique, it places the focus back on these
> items and my putting improves. After a while, confidence inspires
laziness,
> the basics fall out of focus, and another change is required to bring it
> back.
>
> Otto
>

That seemd like quite sensible advice to me. In the middle of my current
putting downturn I did something interesting along these line. I decided
that my putting had stunk for long enough that stinky putting was no longer
a big deal - just one more stinky putting round like all the others.

So I went to the course one day with one goal only. And that was to putt
with no excess tension, good/relaxed technique, and solid ball-striking (if
there is such a thing in putting). OK then - 3 goals if you are picky :-)

I was really surprised to encounter the worst putting that I had encountered
so far. I was not expecting that. It still seems like good advice but I
haven't tried that again - at least not in such a single minded fashion.

dave

ps. I'm still having trouble believing that what amounts to a simple set-up
change is a long term answer. Time will tell.

Date: 22 Apr 2007 00:51:01
From: Otto
Subject: Re: Putting Technique Question

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:_3xWh.24035$PL.13860@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> So I went to the course one day with one goal only. And that was to putt
> with no excess tension, good/relaxed technique, and solid ball-striking
(if
> there is such a thing in putting). OK then - 3 goals if you are picky :-)
>
> I was really surprised to encounter the worst putting that I had
encountered
> so far. I was not expecting that. It still seems like good advice but I
> haven't tried that again - at least not in such a single minded fashion.

My guess is that the process takes a bit more than just comitting to it for
the round the day you show up.

If you have medium pile carpet in your home, spend 10 minutes a day, 1-3
times a day rolling balls and focussing on those three items. Forget about
line. Simply focus on a stable set up, soft grip, and sweet contact. Forget
about where the ball is going. Simply focus on the contact and how you feel.

Do that for week and you'll putt better on the course.

As far as reading putts on the course, I have been in the process of
learning from a couple of elderly Korean gentlemen on how to putt. These
fellas regularly shoot their age or better. Uncanny short games.

My preshot routine was too long and too much thinking. They read essentially
by reaction. They go with their first instinct. They approach the ball the
same way every time, and slowly, but spend very little time over the ball
and are incredibly good putters. Uncommon to see them 3 putt and they are
deadly inside 10'.

Otto