Provisional/searching question

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Date: 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51
From: Simon
Subject: Provisional/searching question

I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...

On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
ended up with a nighte score.

Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.

This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
you have to search for the ball immediately?

Date: 21 Sep 2006 13:53:59
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

tin Levac wrote:
> "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158662211.329181.302260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
> >
> > On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
> > right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
> > option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
> > tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
> > over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
> > find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
> > stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
> > ended up with a nighte score.
> >
> > Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> > could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> > to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> > provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> > I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> > I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> > could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
> >
> > This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
> > break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
> > actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
> > you have to search for the ball immediately?
> >
>
> Provisional can't be used in case of ball unplayable.

I didn't declare a provisional for the unplayable ball

>
> You do not have to search for your ball but it is to your advantage that you
> do.

Sometimes you get near to the area where the original ball is likely to
be and realise that it would be impossible to get it into a better
position than the provisional in 2 further shots.

>
> When you declare your ball unplayable under any circumstance, the next ball
> you play becomes the ball in play.
>
> In your example, the ball you played immediately after calling your original
> ball unplayable had become the ball in play. Finding your original ball at
> this point had no consequence on your score.
>

I know. I played the second ball with the full intention that it would
be the only ball in play. Anyway, because the second ball was in play,
I didn't bother spending much time looking for the first one.

> You broke the rules.

Do you think I played a provisional from the tee, then continued to
play that one even after finding the first?

>
> Instead, you should have declared your next ball provisional without
> declaring your original ball unplayable.
>
> Provisional can be used in case of ball lost outside of hazard or ball out
> of bounds.
>
>
> tin Levac

I don't know whether I was unclear in my original post or whether
nobody has read it properly :-)

This is what I actually did:

Hit my ball into trouble from the tee. I could see that it would be
unplayable, so I declared it as such from the tee (allowed in Decision
28/1). I then played another ball from the tee. This was now my 3rd
shot and was the only ball in play and was never declared as a
provisional.

Then I asked if I could have done this:

Hit the first ball into trouble. Hit another tee shot, declaring it a
provisional. Walk up to see where my provisional finished. If the
provisional was ok, then choose not to look for the orgininal ball. If
the provisional ball didn't look too good, then go back and try and
find the first. If I found the first ball I could take it back to the
tee, playing 3.

Date: 22 Sep 2006 05:48:21
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

"Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158872039.791207.31740@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> tin Levac wrote:
>> "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158662211.329181.302260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>> >
>> > On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
>> > right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
>> > option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
>> > tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
>> > over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
>> > find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
>> > stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
>> > ended up with a nighte score.
>> >
>> > Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
>> > could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
>> > to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
>> > provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
>> > I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
>> > I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
>> > could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>> >
>> > This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
>> > break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
>> > actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
>> > you have to search for the ball immediately?
>> >
>>
>> Provisional can't be used in case of ball unplayable.
>
> I didn't declare a provisional for the unplayable ball
>
>>
>> You do not have to search for your ball but it is to your advantage that
>> you
>> do.
>
> Sometimes you get near to the area where the original ball is likely to
> be and realise that it would be impossible to get it into a better
> position than the provisional in 2 further shots.
>
>>
>> When you declare your ball unplayable under any circumstance, the next
>> ball
>> you play becomes the ball in play.
>>
>> In your example, the ball you played immediately after calling your
>> original
>> ball unplayable had become the ball in play. Finding your original ball
>> at
>> this point had no consequence on your score.
>>
>
> I know. I played the second ball with the full intention that it would
> be the only ball in play. Anyway, because the second ball was in play,
> I didn't bother spending much time looking for the first one.
>
>> You broke the rules.
>
> Do you think I played a provisional from the tee, then continued to
> play that one even after finding the first?
>
>>
>> Instead, you should have declared your next ball provisional without
>> declaring your original ball unplayable.
>>
>> Provisional can be used in case of ball lost outside of hazard or ball
>> out
>> of bounds.
>>
>>
>> tin Levac
>
> I don't know whether I was unclear in my original post or whether
> nobody has read it properly :-)
>
> This is what I actually did:
>
> Hit my ball into trouble from the tee. I could see that it would be
> unplayable, so I declared it as such from the tee (allowed in Decision
> 28/1). I then played another ball from the tee. This was now my 3rd
> shot and was the only ball in play and was never declared as a
> provisional.
>
> Then I asked if I could have done this:
>
> Hit the first ball into trouble. Hit another tee shot, declaring it a
> provisional. Walk up to see where my provisional finished. If the
> provisional was ok, then choose not to look for the orgininal ball. If
> the provisional ball didn't look too good, then go back and try and
> find the first. If I found the first ball I could take it back to the
> tee, playing 3.
>

My apology, you did not, in fact, break the rules. You stated a hypothesis
that may have had you break the rules had you gone through with it instead.

tin Levac

Date: 22 Sep 2006 05:39:00
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 21 Sep 2006 13:53:59 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

> Then I asked if I could have done this:
>
> Hit the first ball into trouble. Hit another tee shot, declaring it a
> provisional. Walk up to see where my provisional finished. If the
> provisional was ok, then choose not to look for the orgininal ball. If
> the provisional ball didn't look too good, then go back and try and
> find the first. If I found the first ball I could take it back to the
> tee, playing 3.

May I please respectfully request that you, and others who may be
interested in these matters, read carefully Rule 27 and 28 and their
Decisions? They are all available at www.usga.org/rules.
They do spell out, in fairly unambiguous fashion, what one can and
cannot do with regard to provisional balls and unplayable-ball
declarations.

Thank you.

Peter

Date: 21 Sep 2006 14:06:13
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

"Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158662211.329181.302260@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>
> On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
> right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
> option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
> tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
> over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
> find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
> stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
> ended up with a nighte score.
>
> Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>
> This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
> break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
> actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
> you have to search for the ball immediately?
>

Provisional can't be used in case of ball unplayable.

You do not have to search for your ball but it is to your advantage that you
do.

When you declare your ball unplayable under any circumstance, the next ball
you play becomes the ball in play.

In your example, the ball you played immediately after calling your original
ball unplayable had become the ball in play. Finding your original ball at
this point had no consequence on your score.

You broke the rules.

Instead, you should have declared your next ball provisional without
declaring your original ball unplayable.

Provisional can be used in case of ball lost outside of hazard or ball out
of bounds.

tin Levac

Date: 21 Sep 2006 10:45:39
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

> No, you cannot penalize them for that. The five minutes allowed to
> search for the ball is not considered slow play, or even holding up
> play. If I was palying you in match play and it was close, or I was
> behind, I would gladly be helping you search for that ball.

That could backfire once in a while. Sometimes lying 1 in the cabbage
is better than lying 3 in the fairway... :) If you are even or behind
and can't beat him on that hole after he spots you 2 storkes... would
it really make any difference? :)

Date: 21 Sep 2006 04:54:27
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Simon wrote:

>
> What if I told you I was abandoning that original ball and intended to
> carry on with my provisional and it's your turn to play. Could you
> insist on looking for my ball before playing your shot? Matchplay
> becomes tricky because I wouldn't be allowed to run up to my
> provisional and hit it again to make it the ball play because I'd be
> playing out of turn!

Yes you can. Playing out of turn means the shot can be recalled, but
it does not stop the provisional becoming the ball in play at that
moment.

Date: 21 Sep 2006 02:36:30
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2006 23:09:22 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >David wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Now, in light of this, do you still think that his actions were
> >> within the spirit of the rules? My opinion is that his actions were
> >> not in the spirit of the rules. If I was playing the round with the
> >> original poster, I would have taken the time to look for his ball.
> >>
> >
> >I think you are talking about the actions I considered, hypothetically,
> >after the event. In the OP I did say that what I actually did was to
> >declare the first ball unplayable, then play another, without any
> >intention of getting the first ball back in play.
> >
> >I agree that my hypothetical actions don't seem to be in the spirit of
> >the rules. To know if they would be actually breaking a rule I'd need
> >to know whether it is allowable to search for your provisional, before
> >starting to look for original ball.
> >
> >Generally, I don't think it's unethical to not search for your
> >provisional. Often I hit a provisional to save time, then take a quick
> >look where my first ball is. I can see that the first ball is in such a
> >bad position, if found, that it would be pointless to try and get it
> >into play. I might look for 30 seconds, then give up. If I want to
> >carry on with my provisional, abandoning the first ball, but my
> >partners insisted on looking for 5 minutes, could I penalised them for
> >"playing without undue delay"?? :-)
>
> No, you cannot penalize them for that. The five minutes allowed to
> search for the ball is not considered slow play, or even holding up
> play. If I was palying you in match play and it was close, or I was
> behind, I would gladly be helping you search for that ball.
>
> David

What if I told you I was abandoning that original ball and intended to
carry on with my provisional and it's your turn to play. Could you
insist on looking for my ball before playing your shot? Matchplay
becomes tricky because I wouldn't be allowed to run up to my
provisional and hit it again to make it the ball play because I'd be
playing out of turn!

Date: 20 Sep 2006 23:09:22
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:

>
> Now, in light of this, do you still think that his actions were
> within the spirit of the rules? My opinion is that his actions were
> not in the spirit of the rules. If I was playing the round with the
> original poster, I would have taken the time to look for his ball.
>

I think you are talking about the actions I considered, hypothetically,
after the event. In the OP I did say that what I actually did was to
declare the first ball unplayable, then play another, without any
intention of getting the first ball back in play.

I agree that my hypothetical actions don't seem to be in the spirit of
the rules. To know if they would be actually breaking a rule I'd need
to know whether it is allowable to search for your provisional, before
starting to look for original ball.

Generally, I don't think it's unethical to not search for your
provisional. Often I hit a provisional to save time, then take a quick
look where my first ball is. I can see that the first ball is in such a
bad position, if found, that it would be pointless to try and get it
into play. I might look for 30 seconds, then give up. If I want to
carry on with my provisional, abandoning the first ball, but my
partners insisted on looking for 5 minutes, could I penalised them for
"playing without undue delay"?? :-)

Date: 21 Sep 2006 11:26:26
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 20 Sep 2006 23:09:22 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>
>David wrote:
>
>>
>> Now, in light of this, do you still think that his actions were
>> within the spirit of the rules? My opinion is that his actions were
>> not in the spirit of the rules. If I was playing the round with the
>> original poster, I would have taken the time to look for his ball.
>>
>
>I think you are talking about the actions I considered, hypothetically,
>after the event. In the OP I did say that what I actually did was to
>declare the first ball unplayable, then play another, without any
>intention of getting the first ball back in play.
>
>I agree that my hypothetical actions don't seem to be in the spirit of
>the rules. To know if they would be actually breaking a rule I'd need
>to know whether it is allowable to search for your provisional, before
>starting to look for original ball.
>
>Generally, I don't think it's unethical to not search for your
>provisional. Often I hit a provisional to save time, then take a quick
>look where my first ball is. I can see that the first ball is in such a
>bad position, if found, that it would be pointless to try and get it
>into play. I might look for 30 seconds, then give up. If I want to
>carry on with my provisional, abandoning the first ball, but my
>partners insisted on looking for 5 minutes, could I penalised them for
>"playing without undue delay"?? :-)

No, you cannot penalize them for that. The five minutes allowed to
search for the ball is not considered slow play, or even holding up
play. If I was palying you in match play and it was close, or I was
behind, I would gladly be helping you search for that ball.

David

Date: 21 Sep 2006 11:54:58
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:26:26 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> No, you cannot penalize them for that. The five minutes allowed to
>search for the ball is not considered slow play, or even holding up
>play. If I was palying you in match play and it was close, or I was
>behind, I would gladly be helping you search for that ball.

Does the tour consider whether someone spends time looking for a ball
in deciding to put someone on the clock?

Date: 20 Sep 2006 22:59:53
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:

> So, in this case, he had decided that if his second ball was on the
> green, he would simply abandon his first ball. He thought that the
> second ball--his provisional--may not be in such good shape, since it
> could have ended up on an embankment.
>
> He had already decided that if his provisional was good enough he
> would simply abandon his first ball--although he had a very good idea
> where the ball lay. Declaring the first ball unplayable was not a
> correct call, IMO. According to Rule 28, which no one who quoted the
> rule truly bothered to read, meant that he still had to find and
> identify his original ball.
>

Decision 28/1 says that you don't have to find your ball if you are
going to take stroke and distance

Date: 22 Sep 2006 05:32:28
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

> David wrote:
> According to Rule 28, which no one who quoted the
> > rule truly bothered to read, meant that he still had to find and
> > identify his original ball.
You, sir, are the one who failed to read it.
Some of us are intimately familiar with it.
The comment below, from Simon, is accurate. How, if you bothered to
read Rule 28, did you miss that?
And if you don't happen to have a Decisions book, but just the small
Rule book, Rule 28 itself says nothing at all about having to find
your ball. It is necessary in 28b and 28c, of course, but not at all
in 28a.

Simon wrote:
> Decision 28/1 says that you don't have to find your ball if you are
> going to take stroke and distance

Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:27:51
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:
> On 19 Sep 2006 04:58:17 -0700, "oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com"
> <oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Simon wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> > Your suggested strategy isn't all that much different than
> >one Mickleson used a couple of years back in a playoff. He
> >launched one that was clearly "lost" in a large waste area
> >of nasty waist high bushes. He hit a provisional and it ended
> >up in the middle of the fairway. He didn't even go looking for
> >the first ball. Unfortunately for him, someone else did so
> >he had to go back and retee.
>
> And that is exactly the point. He had to retee his ball after
> someone found it. His original ball was in play and his provisional
> ball is no longer in play. Nothing different than what I stated in my
> original reply to this thread.
>
> >> Does the 5 minute search period start when you
> >> actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball?
> >
> > When you get there.
> >
> >> Do you have to search for the ball immediately?
> >
> > You don't have to search at all. But your 5 minutes have started I
> >believe when you get there.
>
> Well, you don't HAVE to search. That is no in the spirit of the
> rules and if your playing partners choose to search for it and find
> it, you are required to do something with that ball.

I would not consider every instance of not searching to be contrary to
the sprit of the rules. There are times when the likelyhood of finding
it are so low that there isn't much point. The times when it is
contrary to the spirit of the rules is when you are purposely trying to
benefit from not finding it and that is the only reason you aren't
looking for it.

> If he had holed
> his next tee shot for a pseudo-ace, too bad, he still has to replay
> the shot.
>

If and only if it was declared a provisional... (obviously).

Date: 20 Sep 2006 20:27:57
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 20 Sep 2006 09:27:51 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:

>
>David wrote:
>> On 19 Sep 2006 04:58:17 -0700, "oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com"
>> <oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Simon wrote:
>>
>> <snipped>
>>
>> > Your suggested strategy isn't all that much different than
>> >one Mickleson used a couple of years back in a playoff. He
>> >launched one that was clearly "lost" in a large waste area
>> >of nasty waist high bushes. He hit a provisional and it ended
>> >up in the middle of the fairway. He didn't even go looking for
>> >the first ball. Unfortunately for him, someone else did so
>> >he had to go back and retee.
>>
>> And that is exactly the point. He had to retee his ball after
>> someone found it. His original ball was in play and his provisional
>> ball is no longer in play. Nothing different than what I stated in my
>> original reply to this thread.
>>
>> >> Does the 5 minute search period start when you
>> >> actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball?
>> >
>> > When you get there.
>> >
>> >> Do you have to search for the ball immediately?
>> >
>> > You don't have to search at all. But your 5 minutes have started I
>> >believe when you get there.
>>
>> Well, you don't HAVE to search. That is no in the spirit of the
>> rules and if your playing partners choose to search for it and find
>> it, you are required to do something with that ball.
>
>I would not consider every instance of not searching to be contrary to
>the sprit of the rules. There are times when the likelyhood of finding
>it are so low that there isn't much point. The times when it is
>contrary to the spirit of the rules is when you are purposely trying to
>benefit from not finding it and that is the only reason you aren't
>looking for it.

Okay, here is the significant paragraph from the original post:

--Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
--could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before
starting
--to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
--provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the
green,
--I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in
trouble,
--I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first
ball, I
--could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.

So, in this case, he had decided that if his second ball was on the
green, he would simply abandon his first ball. He thought that the
second ball--his provisional--may not be in such good shape, since it
could have ended up on an embankment.

He had already decided that if his provisional was good enough he
would simply abandon his first ball--although he had a very good idea
where the ball lay. Declaring the first ball unplayable was not a
correct call, IMO. According to Rule 28, which no one who quoted the
rule truly bothered to read, meant that he still had to find and
identify his original ball.

Now, the purpose of playing the provisional is to save time having
to go back to the teeing area, in the case that the ball was lost. If
the ball is found, it cannot be declared lost--unless it ends up OB or
in a water hazard. He would have had to go back and retee.

By his own admission, he was prepared to do this already if he found
that his provisional sucked. He would then have made an attempt to
find the original ball and then declare it unplayable, go back to the
teeing area and hit another--which he had theoretically already done
by hitting a provisiona ball. So, his intent was to abandon the
provisional, if he decided that it was unplayable--for him. It makes
it obvious that he felt certain that he could have, indeed, found the
original ball to begin with.

Now, in light of this, do you still think that his actions were
within the spirit of the rules? My opinion is that his actions were
not in the spirit of the rules. If I was playing the round with the
original poster, I would have taken the time to look for his ball.

Mickelson hitting his drive in to a ravine and playing the
provisional were within the spirit, since he felt that his ball could
not be found. In any case, Phil's ball was found, his provisional was
no longer in play and Phil had to retee.

>> If he had holed
>> his next tee shot for a pseudo-ace, too bad, he still has to replay
>> the shot.
>>
>
>If and only if it was declared a provisional... (obviously).

Obviously. However, no golfer that I know would simply hit another
tee shot without declaring it to be a provisional ball. I was
caddying for a friend of mine in a tournament and he a tee shot way
right in to the woods. He hit a provisional and we looked for his
ball. Unfortunately, I found the ball and it was dead. He had to
abandon the tee shot and go back and hit another tee shot. Those are
the rules as they are meant to be played.

David

Date: 20 Sep 2006 21:47:52
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 20:27:57 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> Obviously. However, no golfer that I know would simply hit another
>tee shot without declaring it to be a provisional ball.

If I don't want it to be a provisional, I explicitly tell my
companions that this is *not* a provisional. This is not required,
but saves some problems.

When I did that recently, my companion falsely said I can't do that
though.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:24:24
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:
> On 19 Sep 2006 05:16:45 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >David wrote:
> >
> >> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
> >
> >> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.
> >
> >Are you sure about this? I thought you could declare the ball
> >unplayable anywhere. In terms of the number of strokes it doesn't make
> >a difference if I called it unplayable or just put another ball in
> >play. I'm still playing 3. I saw the ball land in an area where it
> >would not be playable, even if I found it. Why can't I declare that
> >unplayable from the tee?
>
> Declaring a ball lost is different than declaring a ball unplayable.
> I meant to say that you cannot declare the ball lost, sorry about the
> confusion. How you want to declare a ball unplayable until you find
> it is a mystery to me, though :-)
>
> >> >Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> >> >could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> >> >to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> >> >provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> >> >I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> >> >I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> >> >could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >> When you start searching for your ball, the five minutes begins.
> >> Personally, knowing that I have the option to go back as far as I like
> >> keeping the spot where the ball lay between me and the pin to be a
> >> much more useful option. If I can find a good spot to drop, I have
> >> not given up all that distance.
> >
> >In my hypothetical case, I would walk up to the green first, ignoring
> >the area where my first ball was, then back to that area if my
> >provisional didn't look good.
>
> Hypothetically, if you know your provisional ball is in play, you
> should not be wasting that time. You should go to directly to the
> point where you think you may have lost your ball and begin searching.
> The point of playing the provisional is not to check and see whether
> the orginal ball is "worth" looking for.
>
> >I knew roughly where the ball was and there was no line back from the
> >pin that would be playable and not really anywhere within 10
> >clublengths that would give me a reasonable shot.
>
> If you roughly knew where the ball was, then you should have
> searched for it. If there was no where to drop behind that point,
> then you can take as many two-club length drops as necessary, or go
> back and replay the shot.
>
> Your provisional ball is no longer in play when you find your ball. I
> don't believe that you can actually play the provisional anymore and
> must go back and replay the shot, or take the other penalties.
> >>
> >> Since you cannot declare the ball lost from the teebox, ethics does
> >> not come in to play here. You were not aware of the rules. If you
> >> could simply declare the ball lost from the teebox, then rules are
> >> rules--which you broke in the case.
> >>
> >
> >You have confused me now! You obviously can't 'declare' a ball lost
> >anywhere, but by putting another ball in play (not provisional), then
> >that first ball is 'lost'. What rule do you think I broke?
>

He asked... not a provisional... you answered provisional...
I dont' know if it's is technically lost... but it doesn't matter...
it's been abandoned.

> Playing a provisional ball does not mean that the first ball is
> lost. It means that the ball may be lost and to save the time of
> going back to rehit, you are going to play a provisional. In the
> event that the first ball is found, your provisional is out of play
> and you must play the original ball.
>
> Your ball was not lost until you did not find it within the allotted
> five minutes. Why do you think that it was lost simply by playing a
> provisional?
>

He asked about a non-provisional re-tee as well...

Date: 19 Sep 2006 09:01:31
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> >could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> >to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> >provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> >I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> >I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> >could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>
> If you walk up and see your provisional on the green, you would be
> fine. If you don't see it on the green, your hope is to avoid
> looking for the provisional altogether. However, you can't stop your
> opponents from looking for the provisional. If they find your ball,
> it is the ball in play.

Yes, then he can go back to the tee, and try to hit the green again,
exactly what he was asking. His mistake was declaring his first ball
unplayable, and not calling his second tee shot a provisional.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:55:58
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:
> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
> >
> >On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
> >right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
> >option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
> >tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
> >over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
> >find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
> >stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
> >ended up with a nighte score.
>
> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
> however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
> ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.
>
> Your options, after searching for the ball, are as follows:
>
> You find the ball and it is unplayable, you can go back to where you
> hit your original shot from (not sure about teeing it up, though--add
> a stroke) and hit another ball, OR, you can take consecutive two-club
> length penalties (add a stroke for each time you do this) until the
> ball is playable, OR you can find a spot behind the ball (as far back
> as you wish to go) that keeps the original spot between you and the
> pin and play from there (add a stroke). If you find your ball, you
> cannot declare it lost, of course. You may, if you want to play like
> that, not "really search" for you bal and after five minutes, declare
> it lost and hit your provisional ball--that you should hit at any rate
> to save time having to go bacl to the tee box.
>
> >Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> >could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> >to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> >provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> >I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> >I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> >could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
> >
> >This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
> >break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
> >actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
> >you have to search for the ball immediately?
>
> When you start searching for your ball, the five minutes begins.
> Personally, knowing that I have the option to go back as far as I like
> keeping the spot where the ball lay between me and the pin to be a
> much more useful option. If I can find a good spot to drop, I have
> not given up all that distance.
>
> Since you cannot declare the ball lost from the teebox, ethics does
> not come in to play here. You were not aware of the rules. If you
> could simply declare the ball lost from the teebox, then rules are
> rules--which you broke in the case.
>
> David

Rule 28. A player may declare a ball unplyable anywhere on the course.
There is even a decision very similar to this case. He is exactly
right. He should have played a provisional for a lost ball and done
exactly what he said, legal, though not in the spirit.
Here is the decision:

28/1 When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable

Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player
immediately deems the ball unplayable and plays another ball from the
tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player deem
unplayable a ball which has not been found?

A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule
28a) without finding his ball.
However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay,
the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under
either of these options.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:46:40
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Wayne wrote:

>
> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
> another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
> have to think that you hit the wrong ball.
>
Here we are - Descision 28/1

Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player
immediately declares the ball unplayable and plays another ball from
the tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player
declare unplayable a ball which has not been found?

A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule
28a) without finding his ball.
However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay,
the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under
either of these options.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 16:02:05
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 08:46:40 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>
>Wayne wrote:
>
>>
>> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
>> another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
>> have to think that you hit the wrong ball.
>>
>Here we are - Descision 28/1
>
>Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player
>immediately declares the ball unplayable and plays another ball from
>the tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player
>declare unplayable a ball which has not been found?
>
>A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule
>28a) without finding his ball.
>However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay,
>the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under
>either of these options.

Your OP asked the questions about ethics. You hit your provisional
and are satisfied with it. You feel that finding your original ball
would be a worse situation, so you want to simply abandon it. If you
find the original ball, your provisional is no longer in play. That
is the point.

Notice the "however" portion of the decision.

David

Date: 19 Sep 2006 12:11:54
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Simon wrote:

>
> Wayne wrote:
>
>>
>> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you
>> hit another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable,
>> I'd have to think that you hit the wrong ball.
>>
> Here we are - Descision 28/1
>
> Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player
> immediately declares the ball unplayable and plays another ball from
> the tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player
> declare unplayable a ball which has not been found?
>
> A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule
> 28a) without finding his ball.
> However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay,
> the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under
> either of these options.

Well, there you go then. Don't mind me. :-)

Wayne
--
www.nhlfa.com
"There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are
intolerant of other peoples' cultures, and the Dutch."
-Nigel Powers

Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:09:52
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Simon wrote:
> Wayne wrote:
>
>
> > You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
> > another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
> > have to think that you hit the wrong ball.
> >
> I don't think that's true. Maybe you'd have to find and identify the
> ball before calling it unplayable, but it's possible for the ball to be
> identified and inaccessible.
> Regardless of what I announced on the tee, I don't think there would be
> a penalty. I hit a ball into trouble. Teed up another ball and played
> that one. I have now played 3 shots. I can't see that whether I called
> that first one a lost ball or an unplayable would make any difference
> in this case.
>

I don't think it matters either. It could be sitting on the green
pretty as you please and you could hit another tee ball (not a
provisional) and it would be the same effect. Hitting another ball
(when allowed) is like a giant eraser and a new beginning all in one. :)

Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:04:58
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Date: 19 Sep 2006 06:50:59
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Wayne wrote:

> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
> another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
> have to think that you hit the wrong ball.
>
I don't think that's true. Maybe you'd have to find and identify the
ball before calling it unplayable, but it's possible for the ball to be
identified and inaccessible.
Regardless of what I announced on the tee, I don't think there would be
a penalty. I hit a ball into trouble. Teed up another ball and played
that one. I have now played 3 shots. I can't see that whether I called
that first one a lost ball or an unplayable would make any difference
in this case.

This is getting away from my original question. Perhaps I was a bit
vague. The essence of my first post was:
Is it ok to search for your provisional before you search for your
original ball?

Date: 20 Sep 2006 15:13:12
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 06:50:59 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>
>Wayne wrote:
>
>
>> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
>> another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
>> have to think that you hit the wrong ball.

Technically, that provisional is no longer in play when you find
your ball. You cannot play that ball any longer and must use one of
the three options available to you.

>I don't think that's true. Maybe you'd have to find and identify the
>ball before calling it unplayable, but it's possible for the ball to be
>identified and inaccessible.
>Regardless of what I announced on the tee, I don't think there would be
>a penalty. I hit a ball into trouble. Teed up another ball and played
>that one. I have now played 3 shots. I can't see that whether I called
>that first one a lost ball or an unplayable would make any difference
>in this case.
>
>This is getting away from my original question. Perhaps I was a bit
>vague. The essence of my first post was:
>Is it ok to search for your provisional before you search for your
>original ball?

Did you believe that your provisional was lost, as well? If no,
then you should be looking for the original ball. first.

David

Date: 19 Sep 2006 22:00:07
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 06:50:59 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>Is it ok to search for your provisional before you search for your
>original ball?

Sure. You can even *play* your provisional. And if you haven't
played it from beyond where you believe the original to be, it remains
provisional. This makes sense if you dribble the provisional into
the rough 50 yards away.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 15:15:36
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 22:00:07 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On 19 Sep 2006 06:50:59 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Is it ok to search for your provisional before you search for your
>>original ball?
>
>Sure. You can even *play* your provisional. And if you haven't
>played it from beyond where you believe the original to be, it remains
>provisional. This makes sense if you dribble the provisional into
>the rough 50 yards away.

Yes, if the provisional does not lie beyond the spot where the
original ball ended up, you should continue to play it until this
point is reached. After this point, you no longer play the
provisional until the original ball is deemed lost.

In the OP's example, his provisional was certainly not behind the
original ball, or do you want him to putt out first?

David

Date: 19 Sep 2006 05:16:45
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

David wrote:

> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...

> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.

Are you sure about this? I thought you could declare the ball
unplayable anywhere. In terms of the number of strokes it doesn't make
a difference if I called it unplayable or just put another ball in
play. I'm still playing 3. I saw the ball land in an area where it
would not be playable, even if I found it. Why can't I declare that
unplayable from the tee?

>
> >Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> >could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> >to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> >provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> >I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> >I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> >could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
> >

> When you start searching for your ball, the five minutes begins.
> Personally, knowing that I have the option to go back as far as I like
> keeping the spot where the ball lay between me and the pin to be a
> much more useful option. If I can find a good spot to drop, I have
> not given up all that distance.

In my hypothetical case, I would walk up to the green first, ignoring
the area where my first ball was, then back to that area if my
provisional didn't look good.

I knew roughly where the ball was and there was no line back from the
pin that would be playable and not really anywhere within 10
clublengths that would give me a reasonable shot.
>
> Since you cannot declare the ball lost from the teebox, ethics does
> not come in to play here. You were not aware of the rules. If you
> could simply declare the ball lost from the teebox, then rules are
> rules--which you broke in the case.
>

You have confused me now! You obviously can't 'declare' a ball lost
anywhere, but by putting another ball in play (not provisional), then
that first ball is 'lost'. What rule do you think I broke?

Date: 20 Sep 2006 15:09:28
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 05:16:45 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>
>David wrote:
>
>> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>
>> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.
>
>Are you sure about this? I thought you could declare the ball
>unplayable anywhere. In terms of the number of strokes it doesn't make
>a difference if I called it unplayable or just put another ball in
>play. I'm still playing 3. I saw the ball land in an area where it
>would not be playable, even if I found it. Why can't I declare that
>unplayable from the tee?

Declaring a ball lost is different than declaring a ball unplayable.
I meant to say that you cannot declare the ball lost, sorry about the
confusion. How you want to declare a ball unplayable until you find
it is a mystery to me, though :-)

>> >Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
>> >could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
>> >to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
>> >provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
>> >I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
>> >I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
>> >could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>> >
>
>
>> When you start searching for your ball, the five minutes begins.
>> Personally, knowing that I have the option to go back as far as I like
>> keeping the spot where the ball lay between me and the pin to be a
>> much more useful option. If I can find a good spot to drop, I have
>> not given up all that distance.
>
>In my hypothetical case, I would walk up to the green first, ignoring
>the area where my first ball was, then back to that area if my
>provisional didn't look good.

Hypothetically, if you know your provisional ball is in play, you
should not be wasting that time. You should go to directly to the
point where you think you may have lost your ball and begin searching.
The point of playing the provisional is not to check and see whether
the orginal ball is "worth" looking for.

>I knew roughly where the ball was and there was no line back from the
>pin that would be playable and not really anywhere within 10
>clublengths that would give me a reasonable shot.

If you roughly knew where the ball was, then you should have
searched for it. If there was no where to drop behind that point,
then you can take as many two-club length drops as necessary, or go
back and replay the shot.

Your provisional ball is no longer in play when you find your ball. I
don't believe that you can actually play the provisional anymore and
must go back and replay the shot, or take the other penalties.
>>
>> Since you cannot declare the ball lost from the teebox, ethics does
>> not come in to play here. You were not aware of the rules. If you
>> could simply declare the ball lost from the teebox, then rules are
>> rules--which you broke in the case.
>>
>
>You have confused me now! You obviously can't 'declare' a ball lost
>anywhere, but by putting another ball in play (not provisional), then
>that first ball is 'lost'. What rule do you think I broke?

Playing a provisional ball does not mean that the first ball is
lost. It means that the ball may be lost and to save the time of
going back to rehit, you are going to play a provisional. In the
event that the first ball is found, your provisional is out of play
and you must play the original ball.

Your ball was not lost until you did not find it within the allotted
five minutes. Why do you think that it was lost simply by playing a
provisional?

David

Date: 20 Sep 2006 21:44:05
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 15:09:28 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> Declaring a ball lost is different than declaring a ball unplayable.
>I meant to say that you cannot declare the ball lost, sorry about the
>confusion. How you want to declare a ball unplayable until you find
>it is a mystery to me, though :-)

I hit the ball one time to the wrong side of a lake. The way it was
situated, it would have been a difficult trek on a steep slope to find
the ball, and I wouldn't have had a shot from there anyway.

I'm not going to waste everybody's time looking for that ball.

More recently I had a more likely chance of having a second shot - on
the other side of a different lake. But to get to where the ball
was, I would need to go past the green on 9, go back half way down 18,
and then start looking in the native. There's no way I will do that
to my companions.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 09:34:44
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Simon wrote:

>
> David wrote:
>
>> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>
>> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.
>
> Are you sure about this? I thought you could declare the ball
> unplayable anywhere. In terms of the number of strokes it doesn't make
> a difference if I called it unplayable or just put another ball in
> play. I'm still playing 3. I saw the ball land in an area where it
> would not be playable, even if I found it. Why can't I declare that
> unplayable from the tee?

You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable, so when you hit
another ball from the tee after declaring the first one unplayable, I'd
have to think that you hit the wrong ball.

Wayne
--
www.nhlfa.com
"There are only two things I can't stand in this world: people who are
intolerant of other peoples' cultures, and the Dutch."
-Nigel Powers

Date: 19 Sep 2006 23:31:33
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 09:34:44 -0400, Wayne <way96ah@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Simon wrote:
>
> >
> > David wrote:
> >
> >> On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
> >
> >> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.
> >
> > Are you sure about this? I thought you could declare the ball
> > unplayable anywhere. In terms of the number of strokes it doesn't make
> > a difference if I called it unplayable or just put another ball in
> > play. I'm still playing 3. I saw the ball land in an area where it
> > would not be playable, even if I found it. Why can't I declare that
> > unplayable from the tee?
>
> You have to use the ball that you declared to be unplayable

More bullroar. Read Rule 28. Sheesh!
"If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty
of one stroke:
a. Play a ball....
b. Drop a ball...
c. Drop a ball...

There is a distinct and intentional difference between "a" ball and
"the" ball.
Read the definitions while you're up.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 04:58:17
From: oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

Simon wrote:
> I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>
> On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
> right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
> option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
> tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
> over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
> find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
> stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
> ended up with a nighte score.
>
> Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
> could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
> to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
> provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
> I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
> I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
> could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>
> This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
> break any rules?

Well, no, until maybe you mention the first part of that sentence.
Golf takes a dim view of use of the rules to attempt to circumvent the
rules. You're only suppose to play a provisional when you believe
the ball may be lost or out of bounds. Doesn't sound to me like
that is what you thought.

FWIW, I've learned over the years that any ball I can't see
"may" be lost. I've had trouble finding balls in bushes that
didn't cover much more area that a small car. I lost one last
week in 3 inch grass. (I think it might have been plugged. It
was pretty soft down there). As such, I can pretty confidently
tee off a provisional without worrying that my intent is flawed.

Your suggested strategy isn't all that much different than
one Mickleson used a couple of years back in a playoff. He
launched one that was clearly "lost" in a large waste area
of nasty waist high bushes. He hit a provisional and it ended
up in the middle of the fairway. He didn't even go looking for
the first ball. Unfortunately for him, someone else did so
he had to go back and retee.

> Does the 5 minute search period start when you
> actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball?

When you get there.

> Do you have to search for the ball immediately?

You don't have to search at all. But your 5 minutes have started I
believe when you get there.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 16:08:07
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 04:58:17 -0700, "oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com"
<oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com > wrote:

>
>Simon wrote:

<snipped >

> Your suggested strategy isn't all that much different than
>one Mickleson used a couple of years back in a playoff. He
>launched one that was clearly "lost" in a large waste area
>of nasty waist high bushes. He hit a provisional and it ended
>up in the middle of the fairway. He didn't even go looking for
>the first ball. Unfortunately for him, someone else did so
>he had to go back and retee.

And that is exactly the point. He had to retee his ball after
someone found it. His original ball was in play and his provisional
ball is no longer in play. Nothing different than what I stated in my
original reply to this thread.

>> Does the 5 minute search period start when you
>> actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball?
>
> When you get there.
>
>> Do you have to search for the ball immediately?
>
> You don't have to search at all. But your 5 minutes have started I
>believe when you get there.

Well, you don't HAVE to search. That is no in the spirit of the
rules and if your playing partners choose to search for it and find
it, you are required to do something with that ball. If he had holed
his next tee shot for a pseudo-ace, too bad, he still has to replay
the shot.

David

Date: 19 Sep 2006 22:04:31
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 04:58:17 -0700, "oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com"
<oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com > wrote:

> FWIW, I've learned over the years that any ball I can't see
>"may" be lost. I've had trouble finding balls in bushes that
>didn't cover much more area that a small car. I lost one last
>week in 3 inch grass. (I think it might have been plugged. It
>was pretty soft down there). As such, I can pretty confidently
>tee off a provisional without worrying that my intent is flawed.

I one time hit a ball to a green, went up, searched for it, and
finally had to take stroke and distance. After holing out, I found
my ball about 2" away from the green hidden in a very tall fringe.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 11:55:21
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
>could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
>to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
>provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
>I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
>I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
>could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.

If you walk up and see your provisional on the green, you would be
fine. If you don't see it on the green, your hope is to avoid
looking for the provisional altogether. However, you can't stop your
opponents from looking for the provisional. If they find your ball,
it is the ball in play.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 13:54:56
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 03:36:51 -0700, "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>I had the following situation in a competition on Sunday...
>
>On the par 3 3rd I hit a terrible tee shot into some bushes short and
>right of the green. I knew that, even if I found the ball, the only
>option I would have would be to return to the tee. Without leaving the
>tee I declared it unplayable and hit another. I hit the second shot
>over a bank that obscures the right of the green. We knew that we'd
>find the ball, but didn't know whether the ball was on the green or
>stuck up on the bank. It turns out that it was stuck on the bank and I
>ended up with a nighte score.

Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.

Your options, after searching for the ball, are as follows:

You find the ball and it is unplayable, you can go back to where you
hit your original shot from (not sure about teeing it up, though--add
a stroke) and hit another ball, OR, you can take consecutive two-club
length penalties (add a stroke for each time you do this) until the
ball is playable, OR you can find a spot behind the ball (as far back
as you wish to go) that keeps the original spot between you and the
pin and play from there (add a stroke). If you find your ball, you
cannot declare it lost, of course. You may, if you want to play like
that, not "really search" for you bal and after five minutes, declare
it lost and hit your provisional ball--that you should hit at any rate
to save time having to go bacl to the tee box.

>Afterwards I wondered if I should have taken a different approach. I
>could have declared my second ball a provisional and, before starting
>to search for the first ball, walk up to the green to see where my
>provisional ball had finished. If my provisional ball was on the green,
>I would abandon the first ball. If my provisional ball was in trouble,
>I'd go back and search for the first ball. If I found the first ball, I
>could take it back to the tee and have another go, playing 3.
>
>This doesn't sound like it's in the spirit of the rules, but does it
>break any rules? Does the 5 minute search period start when you
>actually start searching or when you get near the area of the ball? Do
>you have to search for the ball immediately?

When you start searching for your ball, the five minutes begins.
Personally, knowing that I have the option to go back as far as I like
keeping the spot where the ball lay between me and the pin to be a
much more useful option. If I can find a good spot to drop, I have
not given up all that distance.

Since you cannot declare the ball lost from the teebox, ethics does
not come in to play here. You were not aware of the rules. If you
could simply declare the ball lost from the teebox, then rules are
rules--which you broke in the case.

David

Date: 19 Sep 2006 23:29:01
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:54:56 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee.
Bullroar. Read Rule 28.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 21:56:25
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:54:56 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
>however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
>ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.

Why not? What's the difference between declaring a ball unplayable
from the tee and just hitting a replacement ball without declaring it
a provisional?

Date: 19 Sep 2006 12:28:48
From: Kenny Stultz
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

In article <00mvg2lh8qv527s337gph3iubnhea7n3pc@4ax.com >, dgold1958@yahoo.de
says...
<snip >
>
> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
>however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
>ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.
>
<snip >
>
>David
>

David,

That is not correct. From Rule 28:

"The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when
the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his
ball is unplayable."

A player can can a ball unplayable anytime, anywhere.

Kenny

--
Kenny Stultz - Troll and SPAM intolerant
"Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can
earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"

Date: 20 Sep 2006 16:03:28
From: David
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On 19 Sep 2006 12:28:48 GMT, stultz@wai.com (Kenny Stultz) wrote:

>In article <00mvg2lh8qv527s337gph3iubnhea7n3pc@4ax.com>, dgold1958@yahoo.de
>says...
><snip>
>>
>> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
>>however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
>>ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.
>>
><snip>
>>
>>David
>>
>
>David,
>
>That is not correct. From Rule 28:
>
>"The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when
>the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his
>ball is unplayable."
>
>A player can can a ball unplayable anytime, anywhere.

After you have found the ball and identified it can you declare it
unplayable. You cannot deem it unplayable before then.

>
>Kenny

David

Date: 20 Sep 2006 17:53:45
From: Peter Strauss
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:03:28 +0200, David <dgold1958@yahoo.de > wrote:

> On 19 Sep 2006 12:28:48 GMT, stultz@wai.com (Kenny Stultz) wrote:
>
> >In article <00mvg2lh8qv527s337gph3iubnhea7n3pc@4ax.com>, dgold1958@yahoo.de
> >says...
> ><snip>
> >>
> >> Well, you cannot declare a ball unplayable from the tee. You can,
> >>however, hit a provisional if you think that you may not find your
> >>ball--unless you think the ball ended up in a hazard.
> >>
> ><snip>
> >>
> >>David
> >>
> >
> >David,
> >
> >That is not correct. From Rule 28:
> >
> >"The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when
> >the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his
> >ball is unplayable."
> >
> >A player can can a ball unplayable anytime, anywhere.
>
> After you have found the ball and identified it can you declare it
> unplayable. You cannot deem it unplayable before then.

Wrong. RTFR.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 17:02:11
From: Kenny Stultz
Subject: Re: Provisional/searching question

In article <2gi2h25sq70vnmnagq1hgedboh9m58kai8@4ax.com >, dgold1958@yahoo.de
says...

>
> After you have found the ball and identified it can you declare it
>unplayable. You cannot deem it unplayable before then.
>
>>

That is incorrect. See Decision 28/1 below.

28/1 When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable

Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player immediately deems
the ball unplayable and plays another ball from the tee under the
stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player deem unplayable a ball
which has not been found?

A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule 28a)
without finding his ball.
However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay, the
player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under either of
these options.

Kenny

--
Kenny Stultz - Troll and SPAM intolerant
"Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can
earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"