On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

golf-forums.net
Promoting golf discussion.

Main

Date: 27 Dec 2006 09:57:33
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?

Date: 08 Jan 2007 11:46:37
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:

> Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
> he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
> written the book.
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982

It really does sound so simple when you have the basic golf stroke
spelled out for you: Hinge Action of an Angular Motion operating on an
Inclined Plane.

Date: 04 Jan 2007 03:00:28
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:
> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Please. I am less than half his 15 currently. Haven't had a double
> >digit handicap since 1983. Spent several years in a row at scratch in
> >the
> >mid 80s, mostly not playing as much since then, but holding my
> >own. For my own swing, I simply pretend my spine is an axis about
> >which my shoulders and hips must rotate on plane, the rest takes
> >care of itself if I get out more than once a week.
>
> The hips rotate on plane, huh?

It is a perceptual image, not a physical reality.

I can't watch my hips and watch the ball at the same
time. Nor do I really care if my perceptual image matches
the physics, b/c that issue has no bearing on how it helps
me strike the ball. The important part is that the center of
rotation of the hips doesn't 'feel' like it translates
towards the ball, or forward (much).

Arnold Palmer had a hip motion to initiate his
downswing that is similar.

But the point was merely that people who have been
single digit handicappers for years KNOW the essentials
to make THEIR swing work for THEM.

-PA

Date: 05 Jan 2007 00:17:03
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 4 Jan 2007 03:00:28 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:

>> >Please. I am less than half his 15 currently. Haven't had a double
>> >digit handicap since 1983. Spent several years in a row at scratch in
>> >the
>> >mid 80s, mostly not playing as much since then, but holding my
>> >own. For my own swing, I simply pretend my spine is an axis about
>> >which my shoulders and hips must rotate on plane, the rest takes
>> >care of itself if I get out more than once a week.
>>
>> The hips rotate on plane, huh?
>
>It is a perceptual image, not a physical reality.

This is a hoot. The same guy who questioned Homer Kelley's
understanding of mechanics admits he himself plays by image rather
than reality. I thought you single digit handicappers played by
mechanics because single digit handicaps was indicative of
understanding and using such things.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 03 Jan 2007 16:34:54
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2007 08:49:49 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >David Laville wrote:
> >
> >> Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
> >> he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
> >> written the book.
> >
> >How good a golfer was this Homer Kelley dude?
>
> Better than RSG trolls.
>
> >What handicap did he achieve with his insight and knowledge?
>
> A better handicap than RSG trolls.

Please. I am less than half his 15 currently. Haven't had a double
digit handicap since 1983. Spent several years in a row at scratch in
the
mid 80s, mostly not playing as much since then, but holding my
own. For my own swing, I simply pretend my spine is an axis about
which my shoulders and hips must rotate on plane, the rest takes
care of itself if I get out more than once a week.

Which is sort of my point. It is not that hard for anyone avid
who EVER had an understanding of the golf swing to reach
a single digit handicap. Why anyone would accept as the
authoritative book on the golf swing something written by
a man who would need a stroke a hole is beyond me. I just
don't get it. For less than $5 you can get a copy of TMFOG and
use it to reach a single digit handicap with just a little
diligence. But you would pretend someone must spend $35
AND THEN get it professionally interpreted for what - $40/hr -
to be able to play as well as Homer Kelley?

-PA

Date: 04 Jan 2007 03:11:10
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 3 Jan 2007 16:34:54 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:

>Please. I am less than half his 15 currently. Haven't had a double
>digit handicap since 1983. Spent several years in a row at scratch in
>the
>mid 80s, mostly not playing as much since then, but holding my
>own. For my own swing, I simply pretend my spine is an axis about
>which my shoulders and hips must rotate on plane, the rest takes
>care of itself if I get out more than once a week.

The hips rotate on plane, huh?

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 02 Jan 2007 08:49:49
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:

> Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
> he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
> written the book.

How good a golfer was this Homer Kelley dude?

What handicap did he achieve with his insight and knowledge?

-PA

Date: 03 Jan 2007 23:14:40
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 2 Jan 2007 08:49:49 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:

>
>David Laville wrote:
>
>> Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
>> he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
>> written the book.
>
>How good a golfer was this Homer Kelley dude?

Better than RSG trolls.

>What handicap did he achieve with his insight and knowledge?

A better handicap than RSG trolls.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 02 Jan 2007 00:16:13
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Dec 27 2006, 8:57 am, IcUrdazedandconfused <IcUrda...@confused.net >
wrote:
> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?

Just a few points

- I think the drill has merit, and can help fix particular problems,
but like Harvey said, "When I give you an aspirin, don't take the whole
damn bottle".

- A pro had me practice this drill, but told me "only with partial
swings".

- Jim Mclean's "head cover" drill is to make sure the headcover under
the right arm falls out on the backswing, and the one under the left
arm
falls out on the followthrough.

- If you look at the full swings of VJ Singh, or most
other pros for that matter, there is no way they can hold a headcover
under their left armpit all the way to the end of the followthrough.

I think the drill can help you if you have a too armsy swing, but
it also can cause problems if you are not careful. One problem
being taking the club too far inside on the backswing, and
also restricting the follow-through. If you are doing the drill
under the guidance of a pro, he can catch and correct those
problems. If you are doing the drill blindly on your own, you
might not be aware of the problems, and could develop bad
habits.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 23:51:18
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

S McFarlane wrote:
> "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1167364092.779746.181890@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > I think it's important to note Singh's wingspan. He can afford to
> > "bend his left arm and stifle clubhead speed." The rest of us mortals
> > can't, hence one of the key differences between a pro and us regular
> > joes.
>
> If I read you correctly, you are implying that the drill does reinforce a
> swing flaw, and pro's simply have extraordinary skills that allow them to
> overcome that. With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.

That's cool. I think golf swing theory is highly subjective. TGM
describes lots of different ways to hit a golf balls while identifying
a relatively few imperatives.

As to my post, what I meant to say is that VJ likely needs to shorten
his swing, given his wingspan, whereas many of us mortals need all the
swing (turn) we can muster.

FWIW, it's important for me to be connected with my left armpit. I'm
six foot with long arms. Easy for me to overswing.

-Greg

Date: 29 Dec 2006 08:26:25
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

"Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1167378678.291731.65260@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> S McFarlane wrote:
>> "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1167364092.779746.181890@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > I think it's important to note Singh's wingspan. He can afford to
>> > "bend his left arm and stifle clubhead speed." The rest of us mortals
>> > can't, hence one of the key differences between a pro and us regular
>> > joes.
>>
>> If I read you correctly, you are implying that the drill does reinforce a
>> swing flaw, and pro's simply have extraordinary skills that allow them to
>> overcome that. With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.
>
> That's cool. I think golf swing theory is highly subjective. TGM
> describes lots of different ways to hit a golf balls while identifying
> a relatively few imperatives.
>
> As to my post, what I meant to say is that VJ likely needs to shorten
> his swing, given his wingspan, whereas many of us mortals need all the
> swing (turn) we can muster.
>
> FWIW, it's important for me to be connected with my left armpit. I'm
> six foot with long arms. Easy for me to overswing.
>
> -Greg
>

The drill for some is not intended to "force" the left arm to stay at the
ribs: it is to READ AFTER THE FACT whether the release was free and
exuberant enough to CAUSE the left elbow to fold early, and that the left
arm did not independently seek to advance the hands. Actually, for maximum
efficiency of release, the left hand (grip cap) "backs up" as the clubhead
end of the instrument speeds up - otherwise the release is slower. When
this crossing of the clubhead is really fast, the left arm HAS to fold
earlier (and explains why VJ's and Freddie Couples' right hands are pulled
off the grip early). When the head cover drops indicates how early the
folding occurs, hence indicates efficiency to the golfer doing the drill
with this intention- not to observers who probably do not know what the
drill is designed to do. As is evident from some posts here in this thread.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 19:48:12
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:16:20 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> It bends your left arm and stifles clubhead speed.
> >>
> >
> >
> >-snip for brevity-
> >
> >so, as you see, the people Singh listens to don't know what they're talking
> >about. His lack of results speaks for itself.
>
> If you want to believe what I wrote is a load of crap that's your
> prerogative. I explained with simple biomechanics why is does more
> harm than good. If you want to do something that has no benefit at all
> to your swing just because you saw a pro do it go knock yourself out.
> But I do remember Singh suffering rib injuries as a result of doing
> this drill. So maybe, just maybe the people he listens to don't know
> as much as you think they do.
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982

I think it's important to note Singh's wingspan. He can afford to
"bend his left arm and stifle clubhead speed." The rest of us mortals
can't, hence one of the key differences between a pro and us regular
joes.

I'd pay more attn. to David or Lyn Blake/Yoda than a pro drill, Scott.

-Greg

Date: 29 Dec 2006 07:17:05
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

"Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1167364092.779746.181890@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think it's important to note Singh's wingspan. He can afford to
> "bend his left arm and stifle clubhead speed." The rest of us mortals
> can't, hence one of the key differences between a pro and us regular
> joes.

If I read you correctly, you are implying that the drill does reinforce a
swing flaw, and pro's simply have extraordinary skills that allow them to
overcome that. With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.

One of the lesser extraordinary skills that pros have is recognizing snake
oil when they see it. Maybe David is right in saying there can be no value
in maintaining 'connection', as some of the teachers put it. Perhaps very
successful golfers have bought on to a flawed concept despite being
unbelievably good at what they do. Could be, but it ain't where my
uneducated bets are going.

My betting money is that David's advice will work well for some, but not
others. There's no univeral swing that all players must adhere to. But
more to the point, I doubt very seriously that Singh and others of his
caliber use a fundamentally flawed drill in preparation for a tournament.

I'm not endorsing the drill. My swing goes to the dogs when I try to do the
modern-swing thing. I'm only saying that it's hard to accept that it
represents a swing concept that is all wrong when at least a few highly
successful golfers seem to disagree.

>
> I'd pay more attn. to David or Lyn Blake/Yoda than a pro drill, Scott.
>

It's not the drill, it's the swing philosophy behind the drill. I don't pay
much attention to either. David's advice is probably very valuable for the
right person, but I personally can't deal with the golf swing on such a
hyper-mechanical basis. Doesn't work for me, but I'm sure it works great
for many others. Neither does the Leadbetter et al. method, but it clearly
does for others. Some of them are making a pretty nice living _playing_
golf.

Scott

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:08:50
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:17:05 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com >
wrote:

>
>If I read you correctly, you are implying that the drill does reinforce a
>swing flaw, and pro's simply have extraordinary skills that allow them to
>overcome that. With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.

They don't have extraordinary skills that allows them to overcome it.
They hit up to a thousand balls a day, 7 days a week, that allows them
to develop and ingrain a compensation for what they are doing.
Executed correctly there are no compensations in the golf swing. Done
correctly they wouldn't need any drills and a thousand balls. They
could accomplish the same thing hitting a hundred balls.

>My betting money is that David's advice will work well for some, but not
>others.

My advice is based on the universal laws of force and motion, physics
and geometry. No one is exempt from these laws so my advice is
applicable to everyone.

>There's no univeral swing that all players must adhere to.

Of course there isn't. There are over 1,000,000 ways you can swing a
club correctly. But physics and engineering gives us a mechanical
advantage so why not use it?

> But
>more to the point, I doubt very seriously that Singh and others of his
>caliber use a fundamentally flawed drill in preparation for a tournament.

How fundamental was this drill when it injured his ribs?

>It's not the drill, it's the swing philosophy behind the drill. I don't pay
>much attention to either. David's advice is probably very valuable for the
>right person, but I personally can't deal with the golf swing on such a
>hyper-mechanical basis.

My advice is valuable for anyone who tries it. Like I said my advice
is based on the universal laws of force and motion. No one, not even
you, are exempt from them.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 28 Dec 2006 19:45:04
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:31:21 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
> >> Believe it or not, Eric (aka the Hammer) told me that he/it insists on
> >> eating breakfast with his pupil
> >
> >The risk to eyesight is why I prefer to use my mouth.
>
> Because of the hand-eye coordination thing, you probably should eat
> with both present.

Booooo!

Happy New Year Howard.

-Greg

Date: 28 Dec 2006 17:27:35
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

John van der Pflum wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:58:55 GMT, "bill-o" <assimilate@borg.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >On 27-Dec-2006, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote:
> >
> >> don't forget that Yoda guy who has videos floating around out there.
> >>
> >> A golf teacher he is.
> >
> >Lynn is Yoda
>
> A guy with two names. One is a girl's and the other is a space alien?
> And people take golf instruction from this guy? Amazing! ;-)
> --

Believe it or not, Eric (aka the Hammer) told me that he/it insists on
eating breakfast with his pupil prior to the morning lesson.

Hmmmm.....I wonder who paid the bill. : >

-Greg

Date: 28 Dec 2006 20:31:21
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

Dene wrote:
> Believe it or not, Eric (aka the Hammer) told me that he/it insists on
> eating breakfast with his pupil

The risk to eyesight is why I prefer to use my mouth.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 02:50:51
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:31:21 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:

>> Believe it or not, Eric (aka the Hammer) told me that he/it insists on
>> eating breakfast with his pupil
>
>The risk to eyesight is why I prefer to use my mouth.

Because of the hand-eye coordination thing, you probably should eat
with both present.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 11:12:00
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?

My pro gave me this drill--actually, headcovers with the necks cut off,
under EACH arm--as a way to help cure my over-the-top tendencies, and
encourage a more "swing in a barrel" type of motion.

It works for me, though the name of the game is to keep those headcovers
under the arms through the entire swing, including finish.

You'll find, if you try it, that it's very difficult at first. I was
fortunate, I suppose, in that about the 3rd shot I hit with this drill
was, well, amazing. So I was motivated to keep at it.

One interesting side benefit is that you cannot hit a particularly good
shot w/ the headcovers under the arms unless you are producing very good
lag. But what you find out is that you can hit the ball just about as
far with that great lag as you can without anything under your arms.

I found that, over time, I reduced the amplitude of my swing--i.e., I
don't like to take a really big backswing, because I "get lost" and have
a hard time with timing. But I've found i can take a shorter, more
measured backswing and produce just as much distance, or even more. I'm
hitting my gap wedge about 110 yards, which tells you something about
the amount of lag I'm producing.

Some people don't like the drill. All I know is it helped me get to a 7
handicap.

Mike

--
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Report http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
RSG-Wisconsin 2007: June 22-24----Lawsonia!

Date: 29 Dec 2006 10:41:10
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:12:00 -0600, Mike Dalecki
<mike@removeclubdoctor.com > wrote:

>IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
>> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
>> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
>
>My pro gave me this drill--actually, headcovers with the necks cut off,
>under EACH arm--as a way to help cure my over-the-top tendencies, and
>encourage a more "swing in a barrel" type of motion.
>
>It works for me, though the name of the game is to keep those headcovers
>under the arms through the entire swing, including finish.
>
>You'll find, if you try it, that it's very difficult at first. I was
>fortunate, I suppose, in that about the 3rd shot I hit with this drill
>was, well, amazing. So I was motivated to keep at it.
>
>One interesting side benefit is that you cannot hit a particularly good
>shot w/ the headcovers under the arms unless you are producing very good
>lag. But what you find out is that you can hit the ball just about as
>far with that great lag as you can without anything under your arms.
>
>I found that, over time, I reduced the amplitude of my swing--i.e., I
>don't like to take a really big backswing, because I "get lost" and have
>a hard time with timing. But I've found i can take a shorter, more
>measured backswing and produce just as much distance, or even more. I'm
>hitting my gap wedge about 110 yards, which tells you something about
>the amount of lag I'm producing.
>
>Some people don't like the drill. All I know is it helped me get to a 7
>handicap.
>
>Mike

Thanks Mike.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 01:42:46
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:57:33 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
<IcUrdazed@confused.net > wrote:

>I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>could someone elaborate on what this does?

It bends your left arm and stifles clubhead speed.

Right arm - it keeps your right elbow tucked to your right side which
pulls in your hands bending your left arm. You want maximum hand
radius which requires you keep your hands as far away from your body
as possible. This extension keeps your right elbow away from your
body not connected to it.

Left arm - it prevents your left arm from over-taking your left
shoulder which stifles clubhead speed. You start the backswing by
swinging your left arm back across your chest. This causes your left
arm to connect to your chest. Keep swinging your left arm back and it
pulls your torso back. It's the same principle as winding a spring by
turning the top against the bottom.

Your downswing is started from the inside out. As you turn back
towards the target the connection between your torso and left arm
swings your left arm but it only swings it from the top for about a
foot. Your hands then start to move away from your right shoulder and
accelerate which requires your left arm swing free of your torso and
your left hand over-take your left shoulder. Just like the clubhead
must over-take your hands for maximum clubhead speed your left hand
must also over take your left shoulder for maximum hand speed.
Keeping a towel or similar under your left arm pit doesn't allow your
left arm to swing free from your torso nor does it allow your left
hand to over-take your left shoulder. It's like trying to play golf
without allowing the clubhead to pass your hands.

> Also, if a slicer (like
>me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?

Neither.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 05 Jan 2007 06:44:23
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:
> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Please. I am less than half his 15 currently. Haven't had a double
> >> >digit handicap since 1983. Spent several years in a row at scratch in
> >> >the
> >> >mid 80s, mostly not playing as much since then, but holding my
> >> >own. For my own swing, I simply pretend my spine is an axis about
> >> >which my shoulders and hips must rotate on plane, the rest takes
> >> >care of itself if I get out more than once a week.
> >>
> >> The hips rotate on plane, huh?
> >
> >It is a perceptual image, not a physical reality.
>
> This is a hoot. The same guy who questioned Homer Kelley's
> understanding of mechanics admits he himself plays by image rather
> than reality. I thought you single digit handicappers played by
> mechanics because single digit handicaps was indicative of
> understanding and using such things.

Everyone plays by perception. "Physics" is a mental illusion in each
of our heads. We do not know the force with which we hold the club,
we sense it.

Physics is, of course, quite useful, but when you set down to play
a golf shot everything you consider has to be translated into a
perceptual sensory-motor output. In my case I imagine my hips to be
on a parallel plane to my shoulders, the spine a rigid axis about
which both turn. My arms stay close to Hogan's plane on the swing,
and the hips initiate the downswing by staying on axis.

I can look in the mirror and know this mental image is not correct
physically, but that does not detract from its utility in my swing.

I didn't say single digit handicappers played by mechanics, rather
that they knew how to make their swing work for them. You can interpret
that at any level you like. The PGA professionals all have to achieve
a much higher level of competence at golf before they are allowed to
begin training to be an instructor than Homer Kelley ever had. In
sports
of all sorts, we do not accept a high level of instruction from
people who never achieved a high level in that sport. People like
Homer Kelley, who has absolutely zero personal accomplishments
playing as a golfer.

-PA

Date: 05 Jan 2007 07:57:19
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 5 Jan 2007 06:44:23 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:

>Everyone plays by perception. "Physics" is a mental illusion in each
>of our heads. We do not know the force with which we hold the club,
>we sense it.

Even Tiger says he does things which film show aren't accurate - but
if a particular swing thought (starting a downswing with arms or hips)
works - then it works.

A little physics does help - recognizing how lag or opening a club
face delofts the club can be useful. Or realizing that a Stinger
requires a faster hip swing in order to avoid a hook. (People who
play in windy climates need to learn to adjust their swings for them).

And it probably is good to know that different pros have different
swing styles - shoehorning into the "wrong" style for us might not
work.

That said - I want a pro with a good eye for my current problems - to
come up with the drill that gets me past where I am now. Then to
tell me "enough already", so I don't adjust past the optimal
correction.

Date: 30 Dec 2006 08:13:54
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

David Laville wrote:

<bit snipped >

> You want maximum hand
> radius which requires you keep your hands as far away from your body
> as possible. This extension keeps your right elbow away from your
> body not connected to it.
>

<rest snipped >

David,

This caught my eye. At what part of the process is this situation
mandated. Are you suggesting 'maximum hand radius' all the way from
address thru' follow through?

Any particular part of 'TGM' I should refer to for more info?

cheers
david

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:03:34
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:13:54 +1100, david s-a
<dsantwyk@bigpond.net.au > wrote:

>> You want maximum hand
>> radius which requires you keep your hands as far away from your body
>> as possible. This extension keeps your right elbow away from your
>> body not connected to it.

><rest snipped>
>
>David,
>
>This caught my eye. At what part of the process is this situation
>mandated. Are you suggesting 'maximum hand radius' all the way from
>address thru' follow through?

From 8.2 impact fix all the way to 8.11 follow-through. Even better
all the way to 8.12 finish.

>Any particular part of 'TGM' I should refer to for more info?

12-3-0. Note the checklist for the 12 sections. He mentions
"extensor action" in sections 2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 & 11. He mentions it
because he feels it's that important. Remember one of the things
extensor action does is stretch the left arm and keeps it taught.
This gives us maximum left arm and hand radius as well as giving
structure to the triangle assembly.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 28 Dec 2006 11:25:26
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:42:46 GMT, David Laville
<dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:57:33 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
><IcUrdazed@confused.net> wrote:
>
>>I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>>Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>>it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>>could someone elaborate on what this does?
>
>It bends your left arm and stifles clubhead speed.
>
>Right arm - it keeps your right elbow tucked to your right side which
>pulls in your hands bending your left arm. You want maximum hand
>radius which requires you keep your hands as far away from your body
>as possible. This extension keeps your right elbow away from your
>body not connected to it.
>
>Left arm - it prevents your left arm from over-taking your left
>shoulder which stifles clubhead speed. You start the backswing by
>swinging your left arm back across your chest. This causes your left
>arm to connect to your chest. Keep swinging your left arm back and it
>pulls your torso back. It's the same principle as winding a spring by
>turning the top against the bottom.
>
>Your downswing is started from the inside out. As you turn back
>towards the target the connection between your torso and left arm
>swings your left arm but it only swings it from the top for about a
>foot. Your hands then start to move away from your right shoulder and
>accelerate which requires your left arm swing free of your torso and
>your left hand over-take your left shoulder. Just like the clubhead
>must over-take your hands for maximum clubhead speed your left hand
>must also over take your left shoulder for maximum hand speed.
>Keeping a towel or similar under your left arm pit doesn't allow your
>left arm to swing free from your torso nor does it allow your left
>hand to over-take your left shoulder. It's like trying to play golf
>without allowing the clubhead to pass your hands.
>
>> Also, if a slicer (like
>>me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
>
>Neither.
>

David:
I see your point, but if you have trouble "releasing the clubhead",
wouldn't this help to keep a connection and allow the clubhead to
square and then close through impact?

I may be way off here, but I believe one of my biggest flaws is
"holding" the club through impact, instead of just letting it go.
(That came from starting golf with Dalton McCrary, and his "keep the
club square from the backswing through impact; Don't let the club
release" method )

Thoughts?

Date: 29 Dec 2006 02:48:06
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:25:26 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
<IcUrdazed@confused.net > wrote:

>David:
>I see your point, but if you have trouble "releasing the clubhead",
>wouldn't this help to keep a connection and allow the clubhead to
>square and then close through impact?

If the golfer is having problems squaring and closing the clubface
that's a left wrist problem. The only way we can control the rotation
of the clubface is by the rotation of the left wrist. Connection has
absolutely no control over the clubface.

>I may be way off here, but I believe one of my biggest flaws is
>"holding" the club through impact, instead of just letting it go.
>(That came from starting golf with Dalton McCrary, and his "keep the
>club square from the backswing through impact; Don't let the club
>release" method )

There's your problem. McCrary taught to hold the clubface square in
that 4 foot zone, two feet before and two feet after impact. All that
does is promote a reverse roll of the club. In The Golfing Machine
world we refer to it as vertical hinging and it's not compatible with
hitting or swinging unless you want to hit slices. If you want to
release the club and stop hitting slices point the toe of your club at
your target in the follow-through.

Note that I said McCrary "taught". He is now an authorized instructor
of The Golfing Machine and I'm sure he's teaching something different.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 29 Dec 2006 10:40:49
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 02:48:06 GMT, David Laville
<dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:25:26 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
><IcUrdazed@confused.net> wrote:
>
>>David:
>>I see your point, but if you have trouble "releasing the clubhead",
>>wouldn't this help to keep a connection and allow the clubhead to
>>square and then close through impact?
>
>If the golfer is having problems squaring and closing the clubface
>that's a left wrist problem. The only way we can control the rotation
>of the clubface is by the rotation of the left wrist. Connection has
>absolutely no control over the clubface.
>
>>I may be way off here, but I believe one of my biggest flaws is
>>"holding" the club through impact, instead of just letting it go.
>>(That came from starting golf with Dalton McCrary, and his "keep the
>>club square from the backswing through impact; Don't let the club
>>release" method )
>
>There's your problem. McCrary taught to hold the clubface square in
>that 4 foot zone, two feet before and two feet after impact. All that
>does is promote a reverse roll of the club. In The Golfing Machine
>world we refer to it as vertical hinging and it's not compatible with
>hitting or swinging unless you want to hit slices. If you want to
>release the club and stop hitting slices point the toe of your club at
>your target in the follow-through.

Ok, I understand this concept, but is this something that you do
"intentionally", or is it a byproduct of some other mechanical things?
This is where I seem to suffer. I can "point" the toe at the target,
but have timing issues in doing this. I tend to hit weak hooks if I
try and manipulate the wrists / hands in any fashion. Any ideas on
how this "toe" concept could be ingrained as a natural tendency?

>
>Note that I said McCrary "taught". He is now an authorized instructor
>of The Golfing Machine and I'm sure he's teaching something different.

I would have imagined as much.

Date: 05 Jan 2007 07:14:51
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

Howard Brazee wrote:

> That said - I want a pro with a good eye for my current problems - to
> come up with the drill that gets me past where I am now. Then to
> tell me "enough already", so I don't adjust past the optimal
> correction.

Doesn't everyone....

-PA

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:05:51
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:40:49 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
<IcUrdazed@confused.net > wrote:

>Ok, I understand this concept, but is this something that you do
>"intentionally", or is it a byproduct of some other mechanical things?

It's a byproduct of educated hands and practice. For you your focus
should be from the top to swing the club so the toe points at the
target when the club is approx. 2 feet past impact.

>This is where I seem to suffer. I can "point" the toe at the target,
>but have timing issues in doing this. I tend to hit weak hooks if I
>try and manipulate the wrists / hands in any fashion.

Okay, is your grip too strong? Since you slice did you ingrain a
strong grip to help counter it?

> Any ideas on
>how this "toe" concept could be ingrained as a natural tendency?

From the top swing the club so the toe points at the target 2 feet
past impact. It really is that simple. Before hurricane Katrina I
use to belong to the range at a local semi-private club. I was on the
practice putting green one day and there was a girl with a decent
swing on the range hitting the ball every which way. I walked over
and introduced myself and asked if she would mind if I gave her some
advice. I told here to point the toe of her club at the target in her
follow-through and demonstrated how this rolling (hinge action) was
compatible with her swing. She hit every ball after that with a text
book draw. I told her there was no need to struggle when the answers
were so simple and walked back to the putting green. She was no
different than you or anyone else who plays golf.

Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
written the book.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:38:21
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:05:51 GMT, David Laville
<dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:40:49 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
><IcUrdazed@confused.net> wrote:
>
>>Ok, I understand this concept, but is this something that you do
>>"intentionally", or is it a byproduct of some other mechanical things?
>
>It's a byproduct of educated hands and practice. For you your focus
>should be from the top to swing the club so the toe points at the
>target when the club is approx. 2 feet past impact.
>
>>This is where I seem to suffer. I can "point" the toe at the target,
>>but have timing issues in doing this. I tend to hit weak hooks if I
>>try and manipulate the wrists / hands in any fashion.
>
>Okay, is your grip too strong? Since you slice did you ingrain a
>strong grip to help counter it?
>
>> Any ideas on
>>how this "toe" concept could be ingrained as a natural tendency?
>
>From the top swing the club so the toe points at the target 2 feet
>past impact. It really is that simple. Before hurricane Katrina I
>use to belong to the range at a local semi-private club. I was on the
>practice putting green one day and there was a girl with a decent
>swing on the range hitting the ball every which way. I walked over
>and introduced myself and asked if she would mind if I gave her some
>advice. I told here to point the toe of her club at the target in her
>follow-through and demonstrated how this rolling (hinge action) was
>compatible with her swing. She hit every ball after that with a text
>book draw. I told her there was no need to struggle when the answers
>were so simple and walked back to the putting green. She was no
>different than you or anyone else who plays golf.
>
>Home Kelley said when he finished writing The Golfing Machine that if
>he knew it was going to be that simple he probably would have never
>written the book.
>

Thanks David. I'll work on it...

Date: 28 Dec 2006 06:16:20
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:2h66p2p6fd9q1o5sasbod0beo9e79lf44d@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:57:33 -0500, IcUrdazedandconfused
> <IcUrdazed@confused.net> wrote:
>
>>I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>>Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>>it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>>could someone elaborate on what this does?
>
> It bends your left arm and stifles clubhead speed.
>

-snip for brevity-

so, as you see, the people Singh listens to don't know what they're talking
about. His lack of results speaks for itself.

Scott

Date: 29 Dec 2006 02:46:48
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:16:20 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com >
wrote:

>> It bends your left arm and stifles clubhead speed.
>>
>
>
>-snip for brevity-
>
>so, as you see, the people Singh listens to don't know what they're talking
>about. His lack of results speaks for itself.

If you want to believe what I wrote is a load of crap that's your
prerogative. I explained with simple biomechanics why is does more
harm than good. If you want to do something that has no benefit at all
to your swing just because you saw a pro do it go knock yourself out.
But I do remember Singh suffering rib injuries as a result of doing
this drill. So maybe, just maybe the people he listens to don't know
as much as you think they do.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 29 Dec 2006 07:34:27
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:k309p2pkngtt3i6ba17a785ua3m1v6t0gd@4ax.com...

>
> If you want to believe what I wrote is a load of crap that's your
> prerogative.

I don't, other than to say I think you are wrong in saying that the concept
behind the drill is fundamentally flawed.

I explained with simple biomechanics why is does more
> harm than good.

There was very little that was simple about your explanation, at least for
me. I can't follow TGM stuff at all. I play by feel, and all the
mechanical stuff doesn't make a lick of sense to me when I read it. Maybe
during a lesson on the range it would.

If you want to do something that has no benefit at all
> to your swing just because you saw a pro do it go knock yourself out.

I don't, and I don't use or endorse the drill. I've personally found that
focusing on maintaining connection between the arms and upper body does bad
things to my swing. I do think that this can be helpful (and probably
necessary) if you are completely on the modern rotational swing program, but
I'm not. My only point was that, if you mean to say that this represents a
fundamental flaw that can never be correct, then I think you are wrong.

> But I do remember Singh suffering rib injuries as a result of doing
> this drill. So maybe, just maybe the people he listens to don't know
> as much as you think they do.
>

I'm sure they know more than I think they do. Success is it's own measure.
Not monetary success, but scoring success. It ain't the only way to get
there, but it is clearly one way to do so.

Are you sure you've heard he suffered injuries specifically from doing this
drill? That may be, but it sounds extraordinary to me.

Scott

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:11:23
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:34:27 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com >
wrote:

>> If you want to believe what I wrote is a load of crap that's your
>> prerogative.
>
>I don't, other than to say I think you are wrong in saying that the concept
>behind the drill is fundamentally flawed.

It's flawed in that it prevents you from developing maximum hand and
clubhead speed. It's also flawed in that it can cause injuries.

>>If you want to do something that has no benefit at all
>> to your swing just because you saw a pro do it go knock yourself out.
>
>I don't, and I don't use or endorse the drill.

If you don't endorse it than why are you debating so much in its
favor?

>Are you sure you've heard he suffered injuries specifically from doing this
>drill? That may be, but it sounds extraordinary to me.

He did and I thought it was common knowledge.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 27 Dec 2006 11:15:57
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

John van der Pflum wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2006 09:46:59 -0800, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
> >> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
> >> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
> >> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
> >> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
> >> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
> >
> >Careful with that. Lynn Blake is critical of this drill if one is
> >applying this to the right armpit.
> >
> >-Greg
>
> Like anyone should take advice from a guy named Lynn. ;-)
> --

LOL. Add to that....Pat, Leslie, Bobbi, ion, and most of all,
Annika.

-Greg (safe, masculine name)

Date: 27 Dec 2006 15:22:47
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 27 Dec 2006 11:15:57 -0800, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:

>
>John van der Pflum wrote:
>> On 27 Dec 2006 09:46:59 -0800, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
>> >> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>> >> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>> >> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>> >> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
>> >> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
>> >
>> >Careful with that. Lynn Blake is critical of this drill if one is
>> >applying this to the right armpit.
>> >
>> >-Greg
>>
>> Like anyone should take advice from a guy named Lynn. ;-)
>> --
>
>LOL. Add to that....Pat, Leslie, Bobbi, ion, and most of all,
>Annika.
>
>-Greg (safe, masculine name)

don't forget that Yoda guy who has videos floating around out there.

A golf teacher he is.
--

jvdp
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:58:55
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 27-Dec-2006, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote:

> don't forget that Yoda guy who has videos floating around out there.
>
> A golf teacher he is.

Lynn is Yoda

--
bill-o

A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.

Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:53:31
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:58:55 GMT, "bill-o" <assimilate@borg.org >
wrote:

>
>On 27-Dec-2006, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote:
>
>> don't forget that Yoda guy who has videos floating around out there.
>>
>> A golf teacher he is.
>
>Lynn is Yoda

A guy with two names. One is a girl's and the other is a space alien?
And people take golf instruction from this guy? Amazing! ;-)
--

jvdp
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 27 Dec 2006 09:46:59
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

Date: 27 Dec 2006 14:06:52
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 27 Dec 2006 09:46:59 -0800, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:

>
>IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
>> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
>> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
>
>Careful with that. Lynn Blake is critical of this drill if one is
>applying this to the right armpit.
>
>-Greg

Like anyone should take advice from a guy named Lynn. ;-)
--

jvdp
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 27 Dec 2006 07:50:49
From: Ken Meltzer
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

Date: 28 Dec 2006 11:20:37
From: IcUrdazedandconfused
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 27 Dec 2006 07:50:49 -0800, "Ken Meltzer" <commspkmn@aol.com >
wrote:

>
>IcUrdazedandconfused wrote:
>> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
>> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
>> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
>> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
>> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?
>
>Ideally, you want your arms and torso to move in sync, not
>independently of each other. One of my big problems has always been
>the urge to lift my arms to the top of my swing, rather than complete
>the backswing with a full shoulder turn. By using the drill of keeping
>a headcover under my left armpit, I'm forced to make a proper turn.
>I try to keep the headcover in place until pretty well after impact.
>That way, I feel "connected" throughout the swing.
>The best explanation I've ever read of "connection" is in Jimmy
>Ballard's "How to Perfect Your Golf Swing." Unfortunately, that book
>has been out of print for some time. However, he does talk about
>"connection" in videos contained on his website:
>http://www.golfspan.com/gs_Instructors/ballard/JBallard.asp
>Best,
>Ken

Nice web site. Thanks!

Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:57:34
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

On 27-Dec-2006, "Ken Meltzer" <commspkmn@aol.com > wrote:

> Ideally, you want your arms and torso to move in sync, not
> independently of each other.

I would go further than that and say that the body/shoulder turn should
drive the arms.
too often it is the arms that lead which leaks power among other things.

--
bill-o

A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.

Date: 27 Dec 2006 09:15:10
From: Aress Gee
Subject: Re: On using the glove (or headcover) under the arm....

IcUrdazedandconfused <IcUrdazed@confused.net > writes:

> I saw the pros warming up last year (particularly Harrington and
> Singh) using a glove under their right and left arms. I guessed that
> it is to remind them to "stay connected" with the arms and torso, but
> could someone elaborate on what this does? Also, if a slicer (like
> me) uses this to train, which arm (or both) should I use?

Mike Dalecki has written extensively about this drill referring
to it as the headcover drill (feed that to Google).

--
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++