On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

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Date: 28 Dec 2006 02:51:06
From: Dave Lee
Subject: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is probably
directly related to lag improvement drills).

But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the golf
ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
done it still felt like 'my swing'.

This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate description
would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.

1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top are
pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).

2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
and it feels incredibly weak.

Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less). There
is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble for
another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.

I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some serious
doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.

For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So here
was a snapshot of today's practice session.

1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es. That
went OK.

2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4 'real
swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
well.

3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
degree hybrid) with some initial success.

4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.

5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.

I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.

Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?

Thanks.

dave

Date: 02 Jan 2007 11:13:29
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

larry wrote:
> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Dave Lee wrote:
> >> My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
> >> progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is probably
> >> directly related to lag improvement drills).
> >>
> >> But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
> >> But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the golf
> >> ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
> >> some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
> >> done it still felt like 'my swing'.
> >>
> >> This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate description
> >> would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
> >> familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
> >>
> >> 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
> >> one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
> >> looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
> >> frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top are
> >> pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
> >> somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
> >>
> >> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> >> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
> >> and it feels incredibly weak.
> >>
> >> Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
> >> more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less). There
> >> is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble for
> >> another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
> >> better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
> >>
> >> I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
> >> this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
> >> 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some serious
> >> doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
> >>
> >> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> >> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So here
> >> was a snapshot of today's practice session.
> >>
> >> 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es. That
> >> went OK.
> >>
> >> 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
> >> methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4 'real
> >> swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
> >> disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
> >> only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
> >> well.
> >>
> >> 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
> >> degree hybrid) with some initial success.
> >>
> >> 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
> >> my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
> >> shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
> >> clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
> >>
> >> 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
> >> sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
> >>
> >> I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
> >>
> >> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
> >>
> >Sure. Every day I hit a ton of balls, like 300, I am going to hit a
> >few shanks. Really a shank generally is not an 'uncoordinated' swing.
> >It's just getting into the hitting zone too far without giving yourself
> >enough time to release. It's usually a sign of an aggressive attempt
> >at a swing, or sometimes daydreaming and totally not thinking. I have
> >a feeling what I am hearing in this, is that you are trying to save a
> >lot of your angle for a better time. I personally think that puts too
> >much pressure and too much analysis at a critical spot where speed
> >seems to be of the essence.
> >
> >I don't consider a main point I work on (even though I have at times),
> >and consider the geometry of a swing with my motion parts especially my
> >arms and hands more for what I want and consider important.
> >
> >I think your comment about "flippers" can be misconstrued. I think a
> >lot of pros are flippers, except they have their flipping down pretty
> >good with other ingredients. Some can drive load too early and get a
> >stiff right arm without much power, but a whole lot of accuracy.
> >
> >Anyway, when you get into a bad hitting series, my advice would be to
> >slow down a tad and release earlier for a few shots. I know that
> >sounds mundane, but it will ease your tension up a little so you can
> >think about other stuff more comfortably.
> >
> >CJ
> >
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> dave
>
> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
>
> Gene Littler said, "the hands have no role in the golf swing." He
> meant that they just hang onto the club while the arms swing it.
>
> You can't shank unless you are 'doing something' with hands before
> impact.
>
> I strongly suggest you buy a Whippy TempoMaster club--5i is a good
> start--and learn to hit them straight with that. You are obviously
> much too handsy. Good golfers can pick up a Whippy and immediately
> hit them straight and normal distance. Handsy players must work for
> weeks to hit them straight at all!
>
> Larry

Do you recommend the Devo tape while practicing with the Whipper?

CJ

Date: 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Dave Lee wrote:
> My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
> progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is probably
> directly related to lag improvement drills).
>
> But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
> But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the golf
> ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
> some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
> done it still felt like 'my swing'.
>
> This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate description
> would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
> familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
>
> 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
> one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
> looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
> frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top are
> pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
> somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
>
> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
> and it feels incredibly weak.
>
> Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
> more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less). There
> is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble for
> another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
> better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
>
> I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
> this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
> 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some serious
> doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
>
> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So here
> was a snapshot of today's practice session.
>
> 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es. That
> went OK.
>
> 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
> methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4 'real
> swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
> disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
> only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
> well.
>
> 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
> degree hybrid) with some initial success.
>
> 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
> my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
> shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
> clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
>
> 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
> sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
>
> I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
>
> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>
Sure. Every day I hit a ton of balls, like 300, I am going to hit a
few shanks. Really a shank generally is not an 'uncoordinated' swing.
It's just getting into the hitting zone too far without giving yourself
enough time to release. It's usually a sign of an aggressive attempt
at a swing, or sometimes daydreaming and totally not thinking. I have
a feeling what I am hearing in this, is that you are trying to save a
lot of your angle for a better time. I personally think that puts too
much pressure and too much analysis at a critical spot where speed
seems to be of the essence.

I don't consider a main point I work on (even though I have at times),
and consider the geometry of a swing with my motion parts especially my
arms and hands more for what I want and consider important.

I think your comment about "flippers" can be misconstrued. I think a
lot of pros are flippers, except they have their flipping down pretty
good with other ingredients. Some can drive load too early and get a
stiff right arm without much power, but a whole lot of accuracy.

Anyway, when you get into a bad hitting series, my advice would be to
slow down a tad and release earlier for a few shots. I know that
sounds mundane, but it will ease your tension up a little so you can
think about other stuff more comfortably.

CJ

> Thanks.
>
> dave

Date: 29 Dec 2006 15:09:17
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>Dave Lee wrote:
>> My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
>> progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is probably
>> directly related to lag improvement drills).
>>
>> But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
>> But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the golf
>> ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
>> some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
>> done it still felt like 'my swing'.
>>
>> This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate description
>> would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
>> familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
>>
>> 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
>> one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
>> looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
>> frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top are
>> pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
>> somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
>>
>> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
>> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
>> and it feels incredibly weak.
>>
>> Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
>> more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less). There
>> is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble for
>> another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
>> better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
>>
>> I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
>> this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
>> 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some serious
>> doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
>>
>> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
>> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So here
>> was a snapshot of today's practice session.
>>
>> 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es. That
>> went OK.
>>
>> 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
>> methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4 'real
>> swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
>> disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
>> only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
>> well.
>>
>> 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
>> degree hybrid) with some initial success.
>>
>> 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
>> my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
>> shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
>> clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
>>
>> 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
>> sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
>>
>> I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
>>
>> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>>
>Sure. Every day I hit a ton of balls, like 300, I am going to hit a
>few shanks. Really a shank generally is not an 'uncoordinated' swing.
>It's just getting into the hitting zone too far without giving yourself
>enough time to release. It's usually a sign of an aggressive attempt
>at a swing, or sometimes daydreaming and totally not thinking. I have
>a feeling what I am hearing in this, is that you are trying to save a
>lot of your angle for a better time. I personally think that puts too
>much pressure and too much analysis at a critical spot where speed
>seems to be of the essence.
>
>I don't consider a main point I work on (even though I have at times),
>and consider the geometry of a swing with my motion parts especially my
>arms and hands more for what I want and consider important.
>
>I think your comment about "flippers" can be misconstrued. I think a
>lot of pros are flippers, except they have their flipping down pretty
>good with other ingredients. Some can drive load too early and get a
>stiff right arm without much power, but a whole lot of accuracy.
>
>Anyway, when you get into a bad hitting series, my advice would be to
>slow down a tad and release earlier for a few shots. I know that
>sounds mundane, but it will ease your tension up a little so you can
>think about other stuff more comfortably.
>
>CJ
>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> dave

Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.

Gene Littler said, "the hands have no role in the golf swing." He
meant that they just hang onto the club while the arms swing it.

You can't shank unless you are 'doing something' with hands before
impact.

I strongly suggest you buy a Whippy TempoMaster club--5i is a good
start--and learn to hit them straight with that. You are obviously
much too handsy. Good golfers can pick up a Whippy and immediately
hit them straight and normal distance. Handsy players must work for
weeks to hit them straight at all!

Larry

Date: 30 Dec 2006 18:26:33
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
>
> Larry

I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
the practise ground at close range when he was in
his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.

Alan

Date: 02 Jan 2007 16:56:17
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:26:33 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
<afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote:

>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
>> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
>> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
>> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
>>
>> Larry
>
>I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
>the practise ground at close range when he was in
>his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
>to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.

Hey, try that yourself! But don't bet on the game, you will play the
worst golf of your life.

Larry

Date: 03 Jan 2007 07:15:06
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:8ovlp2dg8ant4crgmpdtomvndout89j4eq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:26:33 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>>news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
>>> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
>>> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
>>> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>
>>I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
>>the practise ground at close range when he was in
>>his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
>>to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.
>
> Hey, try that yourself! But don't bet on the game, you will play the
> worst golf of your life.
>
> Larry

I did try it and guess what, for once in your life
you're right, it didn't help a bit. Jack however
continued to do it and amassed 19 majors. Did
OK for him wouldn't you say, Larrr :-)

Alan

Date: 03 Jan 2007 11:40:05
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:15:06 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
<afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote:

>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>news:8ovlp2dg8ant4crgmpdtomvndout89j4eq@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:26:33 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
>> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>>>news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
>>>> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
>>>> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
>>>> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>
>>>I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
>>>the practise ground at close range when he was in
>>>his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
>>>to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.
>>
>> Hey, try that yourself! But don't bet on the game, you will play the
>> worst golf of your life.
>>
>> Larry
>
>I did try it and guess what, for once in your life
>you're right, it didn't help a bit. Jack however
>continued to do it and amassed 19 majors. Did
>OK for him wouldn't you say, Larrr :-)

Tension anywhere is poison to the golf swing. It is impossible to
have a tight grip without tight arms. It is impossible to have tight
muscles in our arms without tightening our shoulder and torso
muscles-- and impossible to make a free full torso turn with tight
torso muscles. ERGO, every great golfer since way before Percy
Boomer and Bobby Jones has counseled relax, relax, relax.' Obviously
you saw what you saw, but we can only assume his real muscle tension
was relaxed--at least relative to fully flexed.

Larry
>
>Alan
>

Date: 04 Jan 2007 00:43:49
From: Peter
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

In article <nb1op25436mo79s3keoji43fpc3in08duc@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:15:06 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >news:8ovlp2dg8ant4crgmpdtomvndout89j4eq@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:26:33 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
> >> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
> >>>> On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>> Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
> >>>> rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
> >>>> baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
> >>>>
> >>>> Larry
> >>>
> >>>I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
> >>>the practise ground at close range when he was in
> >>>his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
> >>>to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.
> >>
> >> Hey, try that yourself! But don't bet on the game, you will play the
> >> worst golf of your life.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >I did try it and guess what, for once in your life
> >you're right, it didn't help a bit. Jack however
> >continued to do it and amassed 19 majors. Did
> >OK for him wouldn't you say, Larrr :-)
>
> Tension anywhere is poison to the golf swing. It is impossible to
> have a tight grip without tight arms. It is impossible to have tight
> muscles in our arms without tightening our shoulder and torso
> muscles-- and impossible to make a free full torso turn with tight
> torso muscles. ERGO, every great golfer since way before Percy
> Boomer and Bobby Jones has counseled relax, relax, relax.' Obviously
> you saw what you saw, but we can only assume his real muscle tension
> was relaxed--at least relative to fully flexed.
>
> Larry
> >
> >Alan
> >

What an utter load of codswallop...

Clue time: you *have* to tense muscles in order to produce any *force*.

Date: 31 Dec 2006 21:33:24
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

In article <ILmdnVvkQqDKMgvYnZ2dnUVZ8tmhnZ2d@bt.com >,
"Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote:

> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> news:fp7bp21c510tvlt212gb2r0bd5e0d6gp5b@4ax.com...
> > On 29 Dec 2006 11:49:51 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> > Just relax. Remember Jack Nicklaus said his arm tension was "like a
> > rag doll." Sam Snead said he held the club "like you would hold a
> > baby bird." Neither was exaggerating.
> >
> > Larry
>
> I watched Jack Nicklaus hit hundreds of shots on
> the practise ground at close range when he was in
> his prime. Just before takeaway his left arm used
> to, very kedly, stiffen like a ramrod. Just a fact.
>
> Alan

There is absolutely no evidence that Larry has ever been interested in
facts.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Date: 29 Dec 2006 22:29:34
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Q. Why should you never eat Snow?

On 29 Dec 2006 18:28:02 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:

>> Correlations mean nothing, There is absolutely no scientific proof
>> that global warming is caused by human activity.
>

>There is no proof that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer.

Nonsense, the epidemiological evidence is overwhelming as is the
animal research. This is an issue that science is able to prove.

>There is no proof that nicotine is addictive.

Addiction is a complex physiological process with a significant
psychological component. However, nicotine is a substance that mimics
a naturally occurring human neurotransmitter and exogenous nicotine
produces measurable changes in the structure of specific neurons that
are associated with withdrawal symptoms if the use of nicotine is
stopped.

>There is no proof that second-hand smoke is harmful.

It depends on how much and for how long, but if cigarettes smoke
causes cancer then second hand smoke would as well.

>There is no proof that exposure to PCBs has long-term
>health effects.

There are good scientific studies on many chemical agents (including
PCB) that have proven them to be harmful. Like cigarettes, the
evidence is from both animal studies and epidemiological studies.

>There's no proof that sulfur dioxide emissions caused
>acid rain.

There are a number of chemical processes that turn SO2 into sulfuric
acid. The process is well-known.

>There's no proof that CFC emissions caused ozone depletion.

The process by which CFC's deplete ozone is well-known.

>I could go on.

Please don't.

There is no way that science could possibly prove that human activity
is responsible for global warming.

I quote from the MIT Professor's article in the WSJ, because I'm not
sure that you will read it all.

"Although no cause for alarm rests on this issue, there has been an
intense effort to claim that the theoretically expected contribution
from additional carbon dioxide has actually been detected.
Given that we do not understand the natural internal variability of
climate change, this task is currently impossible. Nevertheless there
has been a persistent effort to suggest otherwise, and with surprising
impact."

"First, nonscientists generally do not want to bother with
understanding the science. Claims of consensus relieve policy types,
environmental advocates and politicians of any need to do so. Such
claims also serve to intimidate the public and even scientists -
especially those outside the area of climate dynamics. Secondly, given
that the question of human attribution largely cannot be resolved, its
use in promoting visions of disaster constitutes nothing so much as a
bait-and-switch scam."

The pertinent parts are:

1. Given that we do not understand the natural internal variability of
climate change, this task is currently impossible.

2. Secondly, given that the question of human attribution largely
cannot be resolved,

Do you understand that science cannot resolve the issue of what is
causing global warming and that there is no consensus on the issue.

Date: 29 Dec 2006 07:17:28
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Dec 28, 3:50 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in messagenews:uiGkh.3801$pQ3.3451@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> An interesting update on where things stand right now. I was back on the
> range today and in a nutshell....
>
> 1) I no longer have a 'regular swing' that is capable of hitting the golf
> ball. 75% of my regular swings with a wedge are shanks, somewhat fewer with
> a 7i, and that diminishes slowly until we get to the driver. I can hit
> driver poorly, but I guess you can't shank a driver :-)

I can sympathize, I went through similar practice sessions
while working on this. One thing that helped me was practicing
at Golftec, where I could see video from two views at once,
and also measure clubface angle and path, etc. In my case,
it was pretty clear that I was leaving the clubface open
as a result of trying to increase the lag. I had to "re-educate"
my hands on how they should move through impact.

The major difference was learning how the right hand
gets to impact while still "set" (bent back), and yet
loose and able to release during and after impact.
Getting the feeling of where I wanted the right hand to
be at impact, with the wrist bent back and the right palm
facing down, not to the side, was part of it. My pro
had me practice short swings with a "chip and pitch" shaft
extension.

You are trying to make a major change, and one of the
things you are changing is your impact position, especially
with the irons, so you have to adjust it. Every swing from
now on will be the the new swing with lots of lag and
hands well ahead of the ball at impact (with the irons).
There is no going back.

Date: 30 Dec 2006 23:57:43
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167405448.594116.260600@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Dec 28, 3:50 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in
messagenews:uiGkh.3801$pQ3.3451@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
snip
>
> I can sympathize, I went through similar practice sessions
>
> You are trying to make a major change, and one of the
> things you are changing is your impact position, especially
> with the irons, so you have to adjust it. Every swing from
> now on will be the the new swing with lots of lag and
> hands well ahead of the ball at impact (with the irons).
> There is no going back.
>

In thinking about this I have come to the (quite possibly wrong) conclusion
that there may well be a "going back", depending on what I ultimately end up
doing here.

I went into this assuming that I was going to simply achieve a more delayed
version of my current release. If I end up here then I probably can 'go
back' as it is an incremental change to something I'm now doing - basically
just retiming a flip release.

There is also a very different release that feels very different (I would
not call it a better feel) and is very different. This is the one that I was
was working on and required more more (and better) body rotation. My
iliotibial band injury has kind of stopped this move in its tracks for now.
But it will be very hard to 'go back' if this move ever becomes 'my swing'.

dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 21:50:57
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:uiGkh.3801$pQ3.3451@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
> progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is
probably
> directly related to lag improvement drills).
>
> But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
> But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the
golf
> ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
> some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
> done it still felt like 'my swing'.
>
> This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate
description
> would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
> familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
>
> 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
> one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
> looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
> frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top
are
> pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
> somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
>
> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
ballflight
> and it feels incredibly weak.
>
> Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
> more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less).
There
> is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble
for
> another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
> better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
>
> I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
> this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
> 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some
serious
> doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
>
> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So
here
> was a snapshot of today's practice session.
>
> 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es.
That
> went OK.
>
> 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
> methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4
'real
> swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
> disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
> only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
> well.
>
> 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
> degree hybrid) with some initial success.
>
> 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
> my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
> shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
> clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
>
> 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
> sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
>
> I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
>
> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave

An interesting update on where things stand right now. I was back on the
range today and in a nutshell....

1) I no longer have a 'regular swing' that is capable of hitting the golf
ball. 75% of my regular swings with a wedge are shanks, somewhat fewer with
a 7i, and that diminishes slowly until we get to the driver. I can hit
driver poorly, but I guess you can't shank a driver :-)

2) I cannot hit a pitch shot with a LW (at least down to 40 yards - haven't
done much yet with the really short ones). I tend to hit topped shanks when
hitting medium pitches with my LW. Now THAT is an ugly shot. Nice divot
(well) in front of the ball, BTW.

3) My ballstriking using the pump drill is merely poor. Fat and toward the
heel is the predominant error pattern along with the fact that nobody on
this planet (including me or my golfing subconscious) has a clue as the
where the clubface will be aligned on any given shot. Shanks, however, are
rare (but hardly non-existent).

I was expecting these kinds of problems and took my camcorder with me today.
But, alas, I had left it on "PLAY" mode and the battery was dead. But my
sense of things is that this is not going to be a visible mechanics issue.
IMHO, my hands no longer know where the clubhead is (at least in a 'regular
swing').

It is an interesting thing that I seem to have done to myself here. I've
cancelled myself out of my regular rounds "until further notice". Short of
either using my pump drill swing or doing something really unhealthy like
addressing the ball with the toe of the club and aiming it at a point 1"
inside the ball, I honestly don't think I could break 120.

I've done enough swing change work (some successes, some failures) in the
past, that I have a sense of what is and is not achievable for me. I can
tell that my pump drill swing will NEVER happen with a regular backswing.
That leaves in a bit of a quandary right now.

Golf is a funny game. Which reminds me of the joke where the hacker hits a
ball dead fat after topping it twice in a row and says to his caddie "golf
is a funny game". The caddie says "it ain't supposed to be".

dave

ps. This is one case where having a 'remote teaching professional' is a
disadvantage. Normally he is accessible by email, phone, and/or emailed
video, but he teaches 6 weeks per year in Mexico (like right now).

Date: 28 Dec 2006 22:05:50
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Re: The Attached Moaning and Groaning

Now that I think about it, there might well be an explantion here. Somewhere
in TGM is a statement along the lines of "once you lose lag pressure your
hands will begin to sense the sweetspot as being aligned with the hosel,
causing shanks."

If that is true and IF I really am getting better lag pressure from my pump
drill swings (vs 'regular swings'), this might well be an expected outcome
(shanks with my regular swing).

Or not ....

dave

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:5%Wkh.8004$X72.6929@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:uiGkh.3801$pQ3.3451@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
> > progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is
> probably
> > directly related to lag improvement drills).
> >
> > But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough
effort.
> > But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the
> golf
> > ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
> > some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
> > done it still felt like 'my swing'.
> >
> > This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate
> description
> > would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
> > familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
> >
> > 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my
backswing,
> > one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
> > looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
> > frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top
> are
> > pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
> > somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
> >
> > 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> > tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
> ballflight
> > and it feels incredibly weak.
> >
> > Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
> > more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less).
> There
> > is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble
> for
> > another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy
me
> > better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
> >
> > I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
> > this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
> > 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some
> serious
> > doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
> >
> > For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> > path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So
> here
> > was a snapshot of today's practice session.
> >
> > 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es.
> That
> > went OK.
> >
> > 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
> > methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4
> 'real
> > swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a
total
> > disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'.
Not
> > only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
> > well.
> >
> > 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
> > degree hybrid) with some initial success.
> >
> > 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW
to
> > my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
> > shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
> > clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
> >
> > 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
> > sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
> >
> > I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
> >
> > Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > dave
>
> An interesting update on where things stand right now. I was back on the
> range today and in a nutshell....
>
> 1) I no longer have a 'regular swing' that is capable of hitting the golf
> ball. 75% of my regular swings with a wedge are shanks, somewhat fewer
with
> a 7i, and that diminishes slowly until we get to the driver. I can hit
> driver poorly, but I guess you can't shank a driver :-)
>
> 2) I cannot hit a pitch shot with a LW (at least down to 40 yards -
haven't
> done much yet with the really short ones). I tend to hit topped shanks
when
> hitting medium pitches with my LW. Now THAT is an ugly shot. Nice divot
> (well) in front of the ball, BTW.
>
> 3) My ballstriking using the pump drill is merely poor. Fat and toward the
> heel is the predominant error pattern along with the fact that nobody on
> this planet (including me or my golfing subconscious) has a clue as the
> where the clubface will be aligned on any given shot. Shanks, however, are
> rare (but hardly non-existent).
>
> I was expecting these kinds of problems and took my camcorder with me
today.
> But, alas, I had left it on "PLAY" mode and the battery was dead. But my
> sense of things is that this is not going to be a visible mechanics issue.
> IMHO, my hands no longer know where the clubhead is (at least in a
'regular
> swing').
>
> It is an interesting thing that I seem to have done to myself here. I've
> cancelled myself out of my regular rounds "until further notice". Short of
> either using my pump drill swing or doing something really unhealthy like
> addressing the ball with the toe of the club and aiming it at a point 1"
> inside the ball, I honestly don't think I could break 120.
>
> I've done enough swing change work (some successes, some failures) in the
> past, that I have a sense of what is and is not achievable for me. I can
> tell that my pump drill swing will NEVER happen with a regular backswing.
> That leaves in a bit of a quandary right now.
>
> Golf is a funny game. Which reminds me of the joke where the hacker hits a
> ball dead fat after topping it twice in a row and says to his caddie "golf
> is a funny game". The caddie says "it ain't supposed to be".
>
> dave
>
> ps. This is one case where having a 'remote teaching professional' is a
> disadvantage. Normally he is accessible by email, phone, and/or emailed
> video, but he teaches 6 weeks per year in Mexico (like right now).
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 28 Dec 2006 19:59:17
From: Steven Paul
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

In article <2dXkh.8010$X72.33@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Dave
Lee <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

> Somewhere
> in TGM is a statement along the lines of "once you lose lag pressure your
> hands will begin to sense the sweetspot as being aligned with the hosel,
> causing shanks."

That's an interesting notion. I recently injured a muscle in my arm,
and today played for the first time in a while, just to get out there.
But I was using a "low-pressure" swing with a motion similar to a
three-quarter underhand toss. It was a low-effort swing that seemed to
work well except for the occasional shank, which baffled me. Even my
good hits were close to the hosel. Normally one of my strengths is
hitting the sweet spot, so maybe I was experiencing "low lag pressure."

Date: 29 Dec 2006 02:48:43
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

> Somewhere
> in TGM is a statement along the lines of "once you lose lag pressure your
> hands will begin to sense the sweetspot as being aligned with the hosel,
> causing shanks."

Um, no. You're thinking about 2-F "If lag pressure is lost the hands
tend to start the hosel towards impact - that mysterious shank. When
it doubt turn the clubface so both the clubshaft and the sweetspot
will be on the same plane at the start down.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 29 Dec 2006 03:04:54
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:uf09p2trqkd1rg037nhdlotpvn3roioqfq@4ax.com...
>
> > Somewhere
> > in TGM is a statement along the lines of "once you lose lag pressure
your
> > hands will begin to sense the sweetspot as being aligned with the hosel,
> > causing shanks."
>
> Um, no. You're thinking about 2-F "If lag pressure is lost the hands
> tend to start the hosel towards impact - that mysterious shank. When
> it doubt turn the clubface so both the clubshaft and the sweetspot
> will be on the same plane at the start down.
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982

It says exactly "If lag pressure is lost the hands tend to start the hosel
(instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank".

Are you saying that under these conditions the hands still sense the Sweet
Spot correctly, but start the hosel toward the ball for some other,
undisclosed reason? If so what is this undisclosed reason?

dave

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:02:12
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 03:04:54 GMT, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

>It says exactly "If lag pressure is lost the hands tend to start the hosel
>(instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank".
>
>Are you saying that under these conditions the hands still sense the Sweet
>Spot correctly, but start the hosel toward the ball for some other,
>undisclosed reason? If so what is this undisclosed reason?

When you swing the club what you feel and sense is the sweetspot.
Since it's the sweetspot that is always on plane it's the sweetspot
you're lagging. Take the sweetspot off plane and you replace it with
the hosel which is at the end of the shaft and on-plane. When the
sweetspot is off-plane you lose the feel of the sweetspot and the lag
pressure feel it produces and you swing down what is on plane, the
hosel - that mysterious shank.

He goes on to say when it doubt turn the clubface so the shaft and
sweetspot are on the same plane. In other words get the sweetspot on
plane so you can sense its lag.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:25:47
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:dqjgp25a39ocnqm02ujqpdl4utu0p4lkqh@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 03:04:54 GMT, "Dave Lee"
> <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>
> >It says exactly "If lag pressure is lost the hands tend to start the
hosel
> >(instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact - that mysterious "Shank".
> >
> >Are you saying that under these conditions the hands still sense the
Sweet
> >Spot correctly, but start the hosel toward the ball for some other,
> >undisclosed reason? If so what is this undisclosed reason?
>
> When you swing the club what you feel and sense is the sweetspot.
> Since it's the sweetspot that is always on plane it's the sweetspot
> you're lagging. Take the sweetspot off plane and you replace it with
> the hosel which is at the end of the shaft and on-plane. When the
> sweetspot is off-plane you lose the feel of the sweetspot and the lag
> pressure feel it produces and you swing down what is on plane, the
> hosel - that mysterious shank.
>
> He goes on to say when it doubt turn the clubface so the shaft and
> sweetspot are on the same plane. In other words get the sweetspot on
> plane so you can sense its lag.
>
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982

Ah, this would be typical of my frustrations with TGM. I don't doubt that
you are correct in what you say. But the second paragraph of 2-F says
"Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together , it
ALWAYS feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot ...."

It doesn't say anything about the plane of motion of the club affecting
this.

But after ditzing around with TGM you get used to this kind of stuff - you
don't understand it, but this fact no longer surprises you.

dave

Date: 03 Jan 2007 23:14:34
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 00:25:47 GMT, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:

>Ah, this would be typical of my frustrations with TGM. I don't doubt that
>you are correct in what you say. But the second paragraph of 2-F says
>"Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together , it
>ALWAYS feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot ...."

Correct because as he says what you swing and feel is the sweetspot.
How fleeting would feel and mechanics be if you had one feel for the
shaft and another for the sweetspot? The best advice I can give you
is to forget about swinging the shaft right now and concentrate on
swinging the sweetspot.

>It doesn't say anything about the plane of motion of the club affecting
>this.

You're looking into this too deeply. He goes on to say there is a
shaft plane and a sweetspot plane but. Plane angle and plane line
refer to the center of gravity application - the sweet spot.

>But after ditzing around with TGM you get used to this kind of stuff - you
>don't understand it, but this fact no longer surprises you.

At first TGM seems overly complicated and confusing but one day it
will all come together if you stick with it long enough. Like he says
"stick it into the incubator until it's ready to hatch". When it all
came together for me I couldn't believe how simple it was and how
overly complex I made it.

What prevents people from learning TGM is you have to unlearn what
you already know. You have to accept that what you do know may be
wrong and some people have an ego that will not allow this so it makes
learning TGM that much harder. I was fortunate when I discovered TGM
for 3 reasons;

1) I'm a very mechanical person so I adapted to TGM like a fish adapts
to water.

2) I was somewhat new to golf so I didn't have years of knowledge and
study to erase (the only thing I had to erase was years of bad swing
mechanics).

3) I has already resigned and abandoned what I had learned because it
wasn't working and I was completely open minded to the treasure chest
of new swing information I stumbled upon.

At first the info trickled through the dam than one day that dam broke
and everything made sense. Trust me, it will happen to you one day if
you stick with it long enough.

David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982

Date: 28 Dec 2006 09:10:42
From: gp
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Dave,

I've used the pump drill for years, and like you, have had incremental
success. On video, my "lag" position got a little better than my
original OTT swing, but it's still not "pro-caliber".

The experts all say that lag shouldn't be a forced movement, but rather
is the result of proper sequencing and lower body action. Hogan has
said that the golf swing is a chain reaction.

Lately, I'm working on better foot action to promote the correct "1st
move down", but more importantly, weight transfer. I'm sick and tired
of finishing off my back foot and want to get rid of this once and for
all. So, I re-watched Jack Nicklaus' video and tried to imitate his
foot action. I believe today's modern swing of quiet feet isn't a good
thing for the average player to copy, because most of us hacks (except
of the RSG elite) don't have active enough lower bodies.

The correct 1st move down, that movement of weight and lateral shift to
your front foot, coupled with quiet shoulders, will give you the
ability to achieve the lag....I'm also employing some old school
philosophies like "swing the clubhead".

Dave Lee wrote:
> My "progress" on improving my lag has definitely been a mixed bag. And
> progress has been negatively impacted by injuries (one of which is probably
> directly related to lag improvement drills).
>
> But my impression so far is that it is possibly doable with enough effort.
> But my impression is also that this is a VERY different way to hit the golf
> ball. Most of the swing changes that I have made have been incremental -
> some change to a particular aspect to my swing. But when all is said and
> done it still felt like 'my swing'.
>
> This is hugely different. When I do it 'right' (a more accurate description
> would probably be 'less wrong) it is a 'golf swing with which I am not
> familiar'. This manifests itself in two ways.
>
> 1) I can only 'do it' in the form of the pump drill. I take my backswing,
> one or two 'pumps', and swing and I get the delayed release that I am
> looking for. Take a regular swing and it just doesn't happen (and quite
> frankly it feels like it never will). On video the positions at the top are
> pretty much indistinguishable, but obviously something is very different
> somewhere (like between the ears, I suppose).
>
> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
> and it feels incredibly weak.
>
> Based on where I am at right now I would judge this 'new swing' to be no
> more than a full club longer than my old swing (quite possibly less). There
> is no way on God's Green Earth that I'm going to go to all this trouble for
> another 10 yards with a 6i (or driver for that matter). If it could buy me
> better ballstriking, then maybe it is worth it.
>
> I will admit to being only maybe 4 weeks of injury interrupted work into
> this and that clearly isn't enough (and I would not have expected to be
> 'done' at this point). But quite frankly I'm beginning to have some serious
> doubts about this being an ultimately productive effort.
>
> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words. So here
> was a snapshot of today's practice session.
>
> 1) I started with some pump drills with 1/2 LW'es and then full PW'es. That
> went OK.
>
> 2) I started to do my standard 'drill swing to real swing' transition
> methodology of 4 drills swings (pump drill in this case) followed by 4 'real
> swings', trying to make the drill move in my real swing. This was a total
> disaster as I could not make a single good swing in 'real swing mode'. Not
> only that, I started to lose my ability to do pump drills correctly as
> well.
>
> 3) So I went back to pump drills with a number of clubs (LW through 26
> degree hybrid) with some initial success.
>
> 4) Then I suddenly started shanking the ball with everything from my LW to
> my 5i. I haven't shanked two balls in a row for years (if ever). I was
> shanking 4 out of 5 and the one unshanked ball was WAY inside on the
> clubface. This was with everything from full 5i's to half swing LW'es.
>
> 5) I kind of worked out the shank thing but found myself hitting PW'es
> sometimes 25 yards right and sometimes 25 yards left.
>
> I just quit for the day and went to the putting green for a while.
>
> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 09:10:42
From: gp
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Date: 28 Dec 2006 09:10:30
From: gp
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Date: 28 Dec 2006 08:45:53
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Dave Lee wrote:
> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting ballflight
> and it feels incredibly weak.

As I'm interpreting it, could it be because your previous swing had
much more active input from your hands around impact? Because the feel
of a big release is one of club motion, not input from the hands. Input
from the hands around the time of impact is what kills a great release.
You will no longer have this feel in most cases.

> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?

Yes, I have had similar difficulty. Just be diligent in keeping a soft
grip pressure, and not overextend the backswing.

Dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 14:32:19
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:en0hqe0256q@news2.newsguy.com...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
> > tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
ballflight
> > and it feels incredibly weak.
>
> As I'm interpreting it, could it be because your previous swing had
> much more active input from your hands around impact? Because the feel
> of a big release is one of club motion, not input from the hands. Input
> from the hands around the time of impact is what kills a great release.
> You will no longer have this feel in most cases.
>
> > Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>
> Yes, I have had similar difficulty. Just be diligent in keeping a soft
> grip pressure, and not overextend the backswing.
>
> Dave

Me, too handsey. Why how dare you make such an accusation :-)

dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 12:12:41
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Dave Lee wrote:
> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:en0hqe0256q@news2.newsguy.com...
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
>>> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
> ballflight
>>> and it feels incredibly weak.
>> As I'm interpreting it, could it be because your previous swing had
>> much more active input from your hands around impact? Because the feel
>> of a big release is one of club motion, not input from the hands. Input
>> from the hands around the time of impact is what kills a great release.
>> You will no longer have this feel in most cases.
>>
>>> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>> Yes, I have had similar difficulty. Just be diligent in keeping a soft
>> grip pressure, and not overextend the backswing.
>>
>> Dave
>
> Me, too handsey. Why how dare you make such an accusation :-)
>
> dave
>
>

Yep my swing constantly migrates between a swat and a big wide swinger's
swing. When I'm doing it right, my hands do very little. Clubhead
speed can't be felt, and the power is the clubhead speed.

More often than not, the sensation of power in a swing comes from our
mechanics (or handsey hands) sapping it from the moving clubhead. The
less power you feel (all other things being reasonably equal) the more
power is left in the club. I really believe most golfers have a lot
more power in their swing, as it is, if they simply figure out how to
stay out of its way.

Dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 15:57:45
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:12:41 -0500, David Geesaman
<dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote:

>Dave Lee wrote:
>> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:en0hqe0256q@news2.newsguy.com...
>>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>>> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I can't
>>>> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
>> ballflight
>>>> and it feels incredibly weak.
>>> As I'm interpreting it, could it be because your previous swing had
>>> much more active input from your hands around impact? Because the feel
>>> of a big release is one of club motion, not input from the hands. Input
>>> from the hands around the time of impact is what kills a great release.
>>> You will no longer have this feel in most cases.
>>>
>>>> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>>> Yes, I have had similar difficulty. Just be diligent in keeping a soft
>>> grip pressure, and not overextend the backswing.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>> Me, too handsey. Why how dare you make such an accusation :-)
>>
>> dave
>>
>>
>
>Yep my swing constantly migrates between a swat and a big wide swinger's
>swing. When I'm doing it right, my hands do very little. Clubhead
>speed can't be felt, and the power is the clubhead speed.
>
>More often than not, the sensation of power in a swing comes from our
>mechanics (or handsey hands) sapping it from the moving clubhead. The
>less power you feel (all other things being reasonably equal) the more
>power is left in the club. I really believe most golfers have a lot
>more power in their swing, as it is, if they simply figure out how to
>stay out of its way.
>
>Dave

Well, the answer is in nearly every older golf book-- but usually
overlooked.

Clubhead speed is created by a deep wrist cock on the top of the
backswing-- and then the retention of that wrist angle deep into the
downswing--and allowing it to release naturally without hand action.
The club whips through centrifugally. WITHOUT HAND ACTION is the
entire deal. When you just allow the club to freely flop back and
forth, NO conscious control of wrists, you are approaching what the
Golf robot does--and its wrist is totally free!

That is the reason Sam Snead described his grip pressure as "like you
would hold a baby bird." That is exactly what he did-- what Percy
Boomer described as "flail" can happen ONLY when the grip pressure and
arm tension (they are related) is as free as possible.

Good golfers feel when their downswing starts they "leave the club
behind." Its intertia holds it back as the arms start down--and
ideally the wrist cock actually increases-- the club shaft gets closer
to your shoulders as the arms start down.

And then they don't cast.

But the whole thing is the very very loose grip and very very relaxed
arms.

You can get by with nearly any "mistake" in setup or pivot form IF you
are sufficiently relaxed. The club is designed to align itself
centrifugally-- and will do so before impact--IF you don't interfere
with hand action, i.e. maintain that loose grip pressure through
impact.

Everyone should practice long minutes every warmup (Hogan said 15
minutes every day!) doing the "L to L" drill described in his "5
Lessons" book. The key is relaxed arms and extremely loose grip, the
upper arms "glued" to your rib cage turning back and forth, carrying
the arms which in turn carry the club--NO hand action.

There is a very good reason Jason Duback (World long drive champion)
trains with a Whippy Driver. He wants to eliminate all hand action--
because he knows that can ONLY slow the clubhead before
impact--because it decreases his wrist cock prematurely--

Larry

Date: 28 Dec 2006 21:52:49
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:en0tu602j07@news2.newsguy.com...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:en0hqe0256q@news2.newsguy.com...
> >> Dave Lee wrote:
> >>> 2) The 'right' release is some foreign feeling, unnatural thing. I
can't
> >>> tell a duck hook from a banana ball without seeing the resulting
> > ballflight
> >>> and it feels incredibly weak.
> >> As I'm interpreting it, could it be because your previous swing had
> >> much more active input from your hands around impact? Because the feel
> >> of a big release is one of club motion, not input from the hands.
Input
> >> from the hands around the time of impact is what kills a great release.
> >> You will no longer have this feel in most cases.
> >>
> >>> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
> >> Yes, I have had similar difficulty. Just be diligent in keeping a soft
> >> grip pressure, and not overextend the backswing.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > Me, too handsey. Why how dare you make such an accusation :-)
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> Yep my swing constantly migrates between a swat and a big wide swinger's
> swing. When I'm doing it right, my hands do very little. Clubhead
> speed can't be felt, and the power is the clubhead speed.
>
> More often than not, the sensation of power in a swing comes from our
> mechanics (or handsey hands) sapping it from the moving clubhead. The
> less power you feel (all other things being reasonably equal) the more
> power is left in the club. I really believe most golfers have a lot
> more power in their swing, as it is, if they simply figure out how to
> stay out of its way.
>
> Dave

I would think that your sensation of power observation is correct.

But I don't think that I'll ever find myself oscillating between the two
different types of swings. For me they seem quite incompatible (see my reply
to myself elsewhere in this thread).

dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 17:08:08
From: David Geesaman
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

Dave Lee wrote:
> "David Geesaman" <dgeesamanIHateSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:en0tu602j07@news2.newsguy.com...

>> Yep my swing constantly migrates between a swat and a big wide swinger's
>> swing. When I'm doing it right, my hands do very little. Clubhead
>> speed can't be felt, and the power is the clubhead speed.
>>
>> More often than not, the sensation of power in a swing comes from our
>> mechanics (or handsey hands) sapping it from the moving clubhead. The
>> less power you feel (all other things being reasonably equal) the more
>> power is left in the club. I really believe most golfers have a lot
>> more power in their swing, as it is, if they simply figure out how to
>> stay out of its way.
>>
>> Dave
>
> I would think that your sensation of power observation is correct.
>
> But I don't think that I'll ever find myself oscillating between the two
> different types of swings. For me they seem quite incompatible (see my reply
> to myself elsewhere in this thread).
>
> dave

I don't play too often, and consistency is not my high point.

It's probably nowhere near as bad as in the past, but in the last 10
years I've gone from a limber high-school kid Danny-from-caddyshack
swing to something much stouter, tighter, and arguably more controlled.
But I wouldn't say better. :)

Dave

Date: 28 Dec 2006 04:56:13
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

On Dec 27, 8:51 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words.
> Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?

Dave,

I've been working on this problem for years. Needless to say,
it is the toughest problem I've faced in golf. Fixing the OTT
slice was much easier. For me, it has been an incredibly
difficult slog of taking one step forward and backsliding at
every opportunity. Old habits are tough to break.

I think the problem is that it is not just one thing that needs
to be fixed, but several things, and they need to all come
together. When I concentrate on one of the things, I tend
to revert back to bad habits with the others.

I strongly advise to not try to fix this on your own, but
to get professional help. I've made the best progress
this year than ever before, but only because I signed
up for a series of lessons.

I can tell you that the end result is well worth it, though.
When you finally hit that crisp iron shot with your
hands well ahead of the ball, the clubshaft leaning
towards the target, the ball compressing and
exploding off the clubface, it is like a shot of
heroin.

But that is not the end of the journey, either...

Date: 28 Dec 2006 13:52:41
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued yet again)

"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1167310573.127595.213370@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Dec 27, 8:51 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > For others who have gone down the "from 'flipper' to a real golf swing"
> > path, did you find this to be some... damn, I can't find the words.
> > Have others had this kind of struggle working on this problem?
>
> Dave,
>
> I've been working on this problem for years. Needless to say,
> it is the toughest problem I've faced in golf. Fixing the OTT
> slice was much easier. For me, it has been an incredibly
> difficult slog of taking one step forward and backsliding at
> every opportunity. Old habits are tough to break.
>
> I think the problem is that it is not just one thing that needs
> to be fixed, but several things, and they need to all come
> together. When I concentrate on one of the things, I tend
> to revert back to bad habits with the others.
>
> I strongly advise to not try to fix this on your own, but
> to get professional help. I've made the best progress
> this year than ever before, but only because I signed
> up for a series of lessons.
>
> I can tell you that the end result is well worth it, though.
> When you finally hit that crisp iron shot with your
> hands well ahead of the ball, the clubshaft leaning
> towards the target, the ball compressing and
> exploding off the clubface, it is like a shot of
> heroin.
>
> But that is not the end of the journey, either...
>

Thanks for the feedback, Bill. My experience both mirrors yours and (in some
instances) is very different. It is the same as yours in that several things
do need to happen at the same time. In my case it is sequencing (what moves
when) and body rotation (I need more of it and that is probably how I
injured my iliotibial).

But there is a big difference as well. In my case doing it is more like a
sedative than a shot of heroin. It doesn't feel powerful at all. Of course
this is a comparative statement and, I suppose, I'm not the typical golf
swing flipper in that my shaft does not point forward at impact (just not
backwards - it is pretty much vertical). And I do take a divot with just
about everything other than my 3W and driver - and putter except on a bad
day :-)

At this point I'm tempted to postpone these efforts until my iliotibial
seems to be 100% healed. I am working with a teaching pro, but it is mostly
a long distance thing. However my last visit in Nov. is what got me started
here in the first place.

dave