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Main
Date: 26 Nov 2006 19:27:58
From: Dave Lee
Subject: On Improving Lag (continued)
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This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
posted on 10/5/06.
FWIW, the timing is perfect as it looks like I'll have some time to think
about this vs. work on it. Last Sunday evening I caught the little toe of my
right foot on a bedframe. When it happened I wondered 'did I break that
thing?'. Swelling the beginning of blood pooling in my foot tentatively
confirmed that suspicion the next morning. But there really isn't much to be
done about that.
Then yesterday I was doing some painting in the house and using a standard
fold-up (two-step) stepstool. I took my usual foot pointing out, weight on
the inside step up to keep weight off the toe, and the stepstool went
sideways, I went sideways, and I torque'ed my knee severely aggravating an
old (and quite frankly forgotten) knee injury while simultaneously banging
the injured toe. It'll be a few days before I'm swinging the club.
The toe event actually happened in a motel room while making my annual visit
with my teaching pro. We had agreed ahead of time that working on improving
my lag would be the goal of this year's trip.
My pro's philosophy toward making swing changes is very similar to Dr. Carey
Mumford's "Clear Key" perspective on things. In a nutshell it is drill based
mixing 'doing it right' however that might be achieved (customized teaching
aids, slow motion movement, break the swing into pieces, etc) and full
swings. I find it to be a sound approach to the problem.
The drill that he has me doing is something that he calls the 'dagger
drill'. It is similar to 'the pump drill' which I think is fairly
well-known. You take your backswing and then downswing to roughly where your
hands are even with the ball being VERY careful to hold your wrist angle.
You then pump back/forth between this position and the top of the backswing
a few times before actually hitting the ball.
I've been quite surprised to find that I can't even hold my lag properly
when hitting the ball in the dagger drill, although there is a definite
improvement in coming into the ball from the inside. My next step (after
some recovery time) will be to start taking smaller and smaller swings with
the dagger drill (probably with a SW or LW) until I find something that
(from a lag perspective) I can do correctly when hitting the ball in the
dagger drill.
My teaching pro doesn't object to this, but his first choice would be to
have me stick with the full swing dagger drill swings.
Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question of
improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my normal
practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the case
for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach (directly) of
just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
Thanks.
dave
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 09:22:32
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Dec 12, 9:06 am, Not me <u...@foobar.com > wrote:
> In article <1165943061.798080.260...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> "larryrsf" <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 7, 9:36 am, "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > David Laville wrote:
> > > > "GaryC_47" <garyc...@myrealbox.ca> wrote:
>
> > > > >As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> > > > >simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> > > > >don't start rotating your
> > > > >hips more.
>
> > > > Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
> > > > constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
>
> > > > >You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> > > > >accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>
> > > > It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
> > > > trying to become in-line that create it.
>
> > > > >In order
> > > > >to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> > > > >your downswing with hip rotation.
>
> > > > And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
> > > > a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
> > > > the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
> > > > that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
> > > > you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> > > > moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>
> > > > >The best golfers will begin
> > > > >rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> > > > >completed.
>
> > > > They slide them back they don't rotate them back.It is clear to me from
> > > > viewing video of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan, and
> > > Arnold Palmer that there is both forward translation of the hips, and
> > > rotation.
>
> > > I must be misunderstanding something you wrote.
>
> > > Lag is generated from a lack of application of force by the wrist
> > > muscles, and acceleration until the clubhead is roughly 2 feet past
> > > the ball. The left wrist progressively supinates from the top of the
> > > swing through impact.
>
> > > It is REALLY hard to accelerate through impact if you
> > > don't drive the shoulders with the hips.
>
> > > -PA- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
> > It is easily demonstrated that we can generate nearly as much clubhead
> > speed with our feet tightly together as with a normal stance. Hitting
> > with feet together is a standard Whippy beginner drill. With feet
> > together you learn that lag is created by the uncoiling in sequence of
> > hips, then shoulders, then arms, then the club held with a very very
> > relaxed grip pressure so that it is not cast, the lag prematurely
> > released. With feet apart, of course we need to slide our hips
> > forward a few inches before rotating the hips toward the target--else
> > we would fall down! But the uncoiling in sequence, think of a coil
> > spring, is what generates lag and late release-- i.e. clubhead speed.
>
> > This is the purpose of the "L to L" drill so strongly advised by Hogan
> > in "5 Lessons." He suggests we do that drill for long minutes every
> > day--and certainly as part of any warmup routine. It is the essence
> > of the golf swing. I always do it for a few minutes, then start
> > hitting balls doing that--only 100 yards with 8i, but paying more
> > attention to loose grip, good form, and keeping my upper arms "glued"
> > to my rib cage than ball flight.
>
> > LarryAnd then you go out and shoot 44 for nine holes...- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Everyone should click on "profile" of this post to see all the
different forums and threads and different pseudonyms Allen Baker uses.
"Profile of an obsessed usenet nutcase" is what it should say.
Larry
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Date: 12 Dec 2006 09:04:21
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Dec 7, 9:36 am, "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com > wrote:
> David Laville wrote:
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc...@myrealbox.ca> wrote:
>
> > >As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> > >simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> > >don't start rotating your
> > >hips more.
>
> > Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
> > constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
>
> > >You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> > >accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>
> > It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
> > trying to become in-line that create it.
>
> > >In order
> > >to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> > >your downswing with hip rotation.
>
> > And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
> > a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
> > the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
> > that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
> > you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> > moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>
> > >The best golfers will begin
> > >rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> > >completed.
>
> > They slide them back they don't rotate them back.It is clear to me from viewing video of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan, and
> Arnold Palmer that there is both forward translation of the hips, and
> rotation.
>
> I must be misunderstanding something you wrote.
>
> Lag is generated from a lack of application of force by the wrist
> muscles, and acceleration until the clubhead is roughly 2 feet past
> the ball. The left wrist progressively supinates from the top of the
> swing through impact.
>
> It is REALLY hard to accelerate through impact if you
> don't drive the shoulders with the hips.
>
> -PA- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
It is easily demonstrated that we can generate nearly as much clubhead
speed with our feet tightly together as with a normal stance. Hitting
with feet together is a standard Whippy beginner drill. With feet
together you learn that lag is created by the uncoiling in sequence of
hips, then shoulders, then arms, then the club held with a very very
relaxed grip pressure so that it is not cast, the lag prematurely
released. With feet apart, of course we need to slide our hips
forward a few inches before rotating the hips toward the target--else
we would fall down! But the uncoiling in sequence, think of a coil
spring, is what generates lag and late release-- i.e. clubhead speed.
This is the purpose of the "L to L" drill so strongly advised by Hogan
in "5 Lessons." He suggests we do that drill for long minutes every
day--and certainly as part of any warmup routine. It is the essence
of the golf swing. I always do it for a few minutes, then start
hitting balls doing that--only 100 yards with 8i, but paying more
attention to loose grip, good form, and keeping my upper arms "glued"
to my rib cage than ball flight.
Larry
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 17:06:12
From: Not me
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
In article <1165943061.798080.260360@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com >,
"larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Dec 7, 9:36 am, "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > David Laville wrote:
> > > "GaryC_47" <garyc...@myrealbox.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > >As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> > > >simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> > > >don't start rotating your
> > > >hips more.
> >
> > > Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
> > > constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
> >
> > > >You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> > > >accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
> >
> > > It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
> > > trying to become in-line that create it.
> >
> > > >In order
> > > >to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> > > >your downswing with hip rotation.
> >
> > > And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
> > > a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
> > > the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
> > > that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
> > > you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> > > moving on plane you can turn your hips.
> >
> > > >The best golfers will begin
> > > >rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> > > >completed.
> >
> > > They slide them back they don't rotate them back.It is clear to me from
> > > viewing video of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan, and
> > Arnold Palmer that there is both forward translation of the hips, and
> > rotation.
> >
> > I must be misunderstanding something you wrote.
> >
> > Lag is generated from a lack of application of force by the wrist
> > muscles, and acceleration until the clubhead is roughly 2 feet past
> > the ball. The left wrist progressively supinates from the top of the
> > swing through impact.
> >
> > It is REALLY hard to accelerate through impact if you
> > don't drive the shoulders with the hips.
> >
> > -PA- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
>
> It is easily demonstrated that we can generate nearly as much clubhead
> speed with our feet tightly together as with a normal stance. Hitting
> with feet together is a standard Whippy beginner drill. With feet
> together you learn that lag is created by the uncoiling in sequence of
> hips, then shoulders, then arms, then the club held with a very very
> relaxed grip pressure so that it is not cast, the lag prematurely
> released. With feet apart, of course we need to slide our hips
> forward a few inches before rotating the hips toward the target--else
> we would fall down! But the uncoiling in sequence, think of a coil
> spring, is what generates lag and late release-- i.e. clubhead speed.
>
> This is the purpose of the "L to L" drill so strongly advised by Hogan
> in "5 Lessons." He suggests we do that drill for long minutes every
> day--and certainly as part of any warmup routine. It is the essence
> of the golf swing. I always do it for a few minutes, then start
> hitting balls doing that--only 100 yards with 8i, but paying more
> attention to loose grip, good form, and keeping my upper arms "glued"
> to my rib cage than ball flight.
>
> Larry
And then you go out and shoot 44 for nine holes...
|
| |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 09:36:04
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
David Laville wrote:
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote:
>
> >As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> >simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> >don't start rotating your
> >hips more.
>
> Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
> constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
>
> >You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> >accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>
> It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
> trying to become in-line that create it.
>
> >In order
> >to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> >your downswing with hip rotation.
>
> And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
> a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
> the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
> that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
> you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>
> >The best golfers will begin
> >rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> >completed.
>
> They slide them back they don't rotate them back.
It is clear to me from viewing video of Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan, and
Arnold Palmer that there is both forward translation of the hips, and
rotation.
I must be misunderstanding something you wrote.
Lag is generated from a lack of application of force by the wrist
muscles, and acceleration until the clubhead is roughly 2 feet past
the ball. The left wrist progressively supinates from the top of the
swing through impact.
It is REALLY hard to accelerate through impact if you
don't drive the shoulders with the hips.
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 02:43:23
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 7 Dec 2006 09:36:04 -0800, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
>Lag is generated from a lack of application of force by the wrist
>muscles,
It's more helpful to describe what generates lag than what doesn't
generate it. Lag is generated by swinging the club against it's own
inertia, which is its resistance to change of direction or
acceleration. It's a slow steady as she goes motion, a constant
nursing of feel.
>and acceleration until the clubhead is roughly 2 feet past
>the ball. The left wrist progressively supinates from the top of the
>swing through impact.
This is only 1 of 4 things that causes acceleration and supination is
a clubface motion. It's not purely for clubhead acceleration.
>It is REALLY hard to accelerate through impact if you
>don't drive the shoulders with the hips.
Actually it's quite simple. You can;
1) keep pushing with your right arm through impact
2) keep uncocking your lead wrist through impact.
2) keep rolling your lead wrist through impact.
4) Fling your left arm off your chest through impact.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 05 Dec 2006 09:20:29
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
larryrsf wrote:
> Significantly, Bobby Jones never mentions "lag" in any of his books.
> He does describe the factors that create a very late deep lag and late
> release, however, and they are all indirect, of course, since human
> golfers are still the same as they were in his day.
>
> Golfers achieve "lag" and the late release that creates effortless
> clubhead speed and accurate ball striking, the ability to make a divot
> from the ball position for several inches toward the target by using
> very loose grip pressure, using very light arm tension, and relaxed
> torso and hips. The lag and late release just happen when you are
> relaxed. The relaxation factor cannot be over-emphasized. It won't
> work without it!!!
http://www.beauproductions.com/golfswingsws/bobbyjones/index1.html
Hogan says the left wrist should supinate throughout the downswing,
so that the golfer gets the impression the back of the left hand is
lashing at the ball. His left wrist is slightly cupped at the top, and
supinated through impact, demonstrating he practiced what
he preached.
The most notable thing in your swing pictures (DL) that I see, is
something
already noted by others. The relative angles of the hips and shoulders
are quite unusual. In the Bobby Jones video, at impact, his hips are
open maybe 70 degrees, or so, and his shoulders are open 20 degrees
or so.
If you look at the swing of any great golfer, they all share this
attribute.
Now, maybe the angles change a little, but the hips are much more
open than the shoulders at impact. The hips, for pro golfers in their
prime, are usually much closer to 90 degrees open at impact than they
are to 0 degrees open.
The reason for this is that the power of the swing begins being
generated by the hip turn from the top. The "coil" from the hips
to the shoulders is perceived as the power source. The backswing
sets up the hips being much more open than the hips. In Jones
early downswing, his hips are square and the club is still at the top,
with the shoulders closed roughly 70 degrees (back to target). The
hips and shoulders turn nearly together through impact. The impact
position looks awkward - the right elbow at the right hip, the head
still
not moved, but the body so open. This is again a common theme
among single plane golfers like Hogan and Jones and Palmer and
the 2006 Tiger Woods, but even one-plane swingers like Nicklaus
have their hips substantially more open than their shoulders
at impact.
The unfortunate reality is that to go from your current swing to
one in which the hips lead the downswing is more than one trip
to the practice tee. More like a six months of frustration followed by
a few shots further improvement in your index.
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 01:01:20
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165339228.075227.148200@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
snip
> The unfortunate reality is that to go from your current swing to
> one in which the hips lead the downswing is more than one trip
> to the practice tee. More like a six months of frustration followed by
> a few shots further improvement in your index.
>
> -PA
>
Unfortunately, you and my instructor agree about the timing - he says 4-6
months.
dave
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 23:29:29
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Nov 29, 9:23 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> So I showed up literally 20 or so years since my last swing. The teaching
> pro said two things.
>
> 1) We're going to have to improve your turn
> 2) That Arnold Palmer hip slide you've got going has got to go.
>
> We worked mostly on the turn, I made a few range trips, played a round with
> Dad, and didn't touch a club again for a couple more years (after moving to
> NC).
Hey Dave, don't take anything I say as "advice". The only advice
I'd give is to talk this stuff over with your pro. My comments come
only because I'm working on this stuff with a pro myself, and
this is where he's taking me. But your problems could possibly
be different than mine, and it's possible, I suppose, that I am
projecting my problems on you.
That said, a few more comments:
1. You mentioned Del La Torre. I read through his book a few years
ago, but to tell the truth, I didn't get much from him. There are
other
pros that teach a free arm swing, though, like Flick, Jacobs, and
Leslie KIng. If you dig into what they say - yes they teach
that the arms swing freely, but they also teach that the lower body
must move ahead of the arms to get into position to support the
free arm swing.
2. I notice your photos show you swinging what looks like a fairway
wood. I would suggest you work through these issues with your
midirons first. Getting into a good impact position with your irons
requires you to maintain lag, so it is easier to see if you
are screwing up; the checkpoints are more obvious.
3. Adding the hip shift and turn into the swing adds
complexity, but it also adds rhythmn, timing, and grace, and
makes the whole experience a lot more - fun.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 15:54:52
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1165303769.926636.125050@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 29, 9:23 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > So I showed up literally 20 or so years since my last swing. The
teaching
> > pro said two things.
> >
> > 1) We're going to have to improve your turn
> > 2) That Arnold Palmer hip slide you've got going has got to go.
> >
> > We worked mostly on the turn, I made a few range trips, played a round
with
> > Dad, and didn't touch a club again for a couple more years (after moving
to
> > NC).
>
> Hey Dave, don't take anything I say as "advice". The only advice
> I'd give is to talk this stuff over with your pro. My comments come
> only because I'm working on this stuff with a pro myself, and
> this is where he's taking me. But your problems could possibly
> be different than mine, and it's possible, I suppose, that I am
> projecting my problems on you.
>
> That said, a few more comments:
>
> 1. You mentioned Del La Torre. I read through his book a few years
> ago, but to tell the truth, I didn't get much from him. There are
> other
> pros that teach a free arm swing, though, like Flick, Jacobs, and
> Leslie KIng. If you dig into what they say - yes they teach
> that the arms swing freely, but they also teach that the lower body
> must move ahead of the arms to get into position to support the
> free arm swing.
>
> 2. I notice your photos show you swinging what looks like a fairway
> wood. I would suggest you work through these issues with your
> midirons first. Getting into a good impact position with your irons
> requires you to maintain lag, so it is easier to see if you
> are screwing up; the checkpoints are more obvious.
>
> 3. Adding the hip shift and turn into the swing adds
> complexity, but it also adds rhythmn, timing, and grace, and
> makes the whole experience a lot more - fun.
>
Bill, not sure how this happened but I have developed kind of a "video
standard" where 95% of the swings that I video are using a hybrid (like the
ones I posted). Not sure what my 'lag improvement' key club will be and/or
if it will require extensive video review.
Regarding De La Torre for me it was kind of "after the fact" - as in I read
the book and said "hey, that is how I swing". I seem to recall Flick (I
think) stating that in his opinion this approach to the swing was the best
for folks with average coordination and/or practice time/habits. I'm
probably slightly above (not a lot) average in terms of coordination, WAY
above average in practice time, and I rank near your average amoeba in
terms of proprioceptive neuromuscular senses (ability to have a clue about
what your arms/hands/body just did swinging a golf club).
FWIW, I might have had something of a Eureka experience in practice
yesterday (actually two of them). One of those was related to body turn.
However I have had more Eureka experiences in golf that you-know-who here on
this forum. I think I'll keep it to myself until I actually believe that it
isn't of the WOOD variety (Works Only One Day).
dave
|
| |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 10:53:19
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On Nov 26, 1:01 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in messagenews:6Hmah.3514$sf5.2229@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> >news:kqmah.25149$m9.11267@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >>news:2Vlah.3483$sf5.489@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > snip
>
> >> When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered
> > in
> >> replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of space:
> >> that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3 feet.
> >> And this was with various length backswings, such that if the backswing
> > were
> >> "to the top," the release would occur too easy and be wasted by the time
> > the
> >> hands got to the right pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the
> > hands
> >> no higher than the belt, it was possible to START the release when the
> > hands
> >> reached mid body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about
> > 3
> >> inches of travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level
> > with
> >> the ground all the way to the ball.
>
> >> So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is
> > I
> >> HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
> >> ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
> >> occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
> >> and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the
> >> club
> >> IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
>
> >> This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or
> > more
> >> skilled player who controls his timing better.
>
> >> When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and
> > stop
> >> frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
>
> > Thanks for the comments, George. For me I don't know if the change will be
> > an "aha moment", a long and tortuous path (this is what my instructor
> > believes), or a complete failure.
>
> > But FWIW I looked at a swing of Chad Campbell vs. me just now. In the
> > frame
> > where it is obvious that your hands are now below the belt buckle it is
> > exactly four more frame to get to impact for me and for Chad. However the
> > lag angle for Chad (angle between his shaft and left forearm) is 83
> > degrees
> > while mine is 118.
>
> > Of course if I were able to achieve Chad's lag in my swing, I would be
> > transferring more momentum from my arms to the clubhead and my arms would
> > slow down more than they do.
>
> > But for now I've got the same arm speed as Chad Campbell!! :-)
>
> > daveDave, as I said and didn't fully complete, the subconscious ACTS AGAINST OUR
> KNOWLEDGE to advance the SHAFT. Which causes the release to start too
> early. You have to move your hands in such a way that if the clubshaft were
> elastic, you'd STRETCH it. ANY other force applied does dissipate the lag
> angle IMMEDIATELY. Chad has simply learned NOT to do something leveragewise
> to the shaft. As you say your arms move about the same speed. So it isn't
> that you can't do what he does: it is that the demon inside is resisting --
> and the demon is ALWAYS because of a misperception, an unconscious belief
> that is based on a wrong premise. You HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR IMAGE, and the
> drill is the only way the instructor has to be able to LEARN YOU. Which of
> course he can't do: he can show you but you LEARN yourself. ANd that by
> empirical evidence that you can't deny.
>
> Another take on this is to NOT USE your right hand at all during this drill
> for about 6 months. No, I take that back: use it TO HOLD THE SHAFT ABOUT
> HALF WAY DOWN to KEEP it from advancing so that you DO bring the entire L
> shape assembly to where your left hand is IN FRONT OF YOUR ZIPPER before you
> release your right hand. When your left hand IS there the club will then be
> parallel to the ground. THAT is when you let go with the right hand and
> watch the immediacy of the release.
>
> Research Paul Bertholy- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Significantly, Bobby Jones never mentions "lag" in any of his books.
He does describe the factors that create a very late deep lag and late
release, however, and they are all indirect, of course, since human
golfers are still the same as they were in his day.
Golfers achieve "lag" and the late release that creates effortless
clubhead speed and accurate ball striking, the ability to make a divot
from the ball position for several inches toward the target by using
very loose grip pressure, using very light arm tension, and relaxed
torso and hips. The lag and late release just happen when you are
relaxed. The relaxation factor cannot be over-emphasized. It won't
work without it!!! Being free of tension is absolutely vitally
important in order to have your lower body turn toward the target (the
hips) lead the downswing-- which leaves the arms behind and creates the
lag and late release. That cannot happen if the arms and grip pressure
are so tense that the club cannot naturally set on top due to intertia.
It will all be wasted in a cast if the arms and dominant hand grip
pressure screw it up.
Everyone should watch Bobby Jones again-- even though some aspects of
his swing are old-fashioned, Jack Nicklaus was correct is saying there
is more to learn from him than "modern" teaching, meaning the position
analysis, etc. that can only add too much tension for a repeating golf
swiing.
Bobby Jones "threw the clubhead at the ball" and he would have driven
it 300+ from the tee with modern clubs and balls. He would have
easily hit every GIR on even the longest championship course today.
His entire secret was relaxation. You can't create clubhead speed and
repeating accuracy with tension anyplace in your body. The best long
drive competitors train with Whippy drivers--; i.e. to eliminate hands
and tension.
Larry
|
| |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 04:54:28
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
I think the top posting is my fault for making such a long post in the
first place so apologies for that. I find your practice swing vs real
swing problem a bit baffling. I can understand the swings being a bit
different but the difference in lag is hard to grasp. But if you are
happy with your practice swing - how about taking a slow-motion
practice swing down to impact then working from this impact postion try
hitting a few chip shots just by taking the club back and forth, just a
short distance at first, making sure that you keep the clubhead
lagging. After a few shots like this, you can start extending the swing
further and further until you build up to what is almost a full swing.
I use this as my warm-up drill at the start of every practice session -
usually after I've done a few of the 'baseball' style practice swings I
described. Have you tried this type of drill?
The only other thing I can think of is to try doing something that I
recently realized I have probably been doing most of my life. At
address my eyes are looking at the ball, but my face is actually
pointed well behind the ball to a point a few inches behind the middle
of my stance. Then just before I start my backswing my eyes turn toward
the spot where my face is pointed behind the ball. So throughout the
swing I am only able to see the ball in my peripheral vision and I am
not actually looking at the ball or focussed on anything really, but
instead just staring blankly at this spot a foot or so behind the
ball. I think this helps me to just trust my swing and let the ball get
in the way. Something like this might help you to get over this glitch.
rgds Babbs
Dave Lee wrote:
> Re: Attached (and yet another top-post)
>
> In further thinking - while I am relatively convinced that drills that don't
> involve hitting a golf ball will not work for me, a drill in a new
> configuration (upright) might give me a feel that is different (and more
> helpful) than what I am getting in a 'golfing configuration'. Honestly, I
> doubt it (for me, anyway). But I can't rule that out.
>
> I'll need to read your suggestion more carefully as I am familiar with the
> "baseball swing drill", but yours looked a bit different.
>
> dave
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:06lch.6496$1s6.5843@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Re: Attached (top-posted for reading convenience - so sue me :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the interesting drill. But for me it isn't necessary as I truly
> > have no problem making a golf swing that completely solves this problem. I
> > can do this consistently and it requires no concentration or effort on my
> > part. The only issue is that it is my practice swing and it disappears
> when
> > there is a ball to be struck. There was an interesting thread on this
> about
> > a year ago that you can find in the link below. I had long ago dumped the
> > originating picture referenced in the thread so I replaced with another.
> > Yes, that is a tennis ball (part of an experiment that will probably be
> more
> > clear if you wade through this thread)
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/y24395
> >
> > I worked a fair amount back then working on 'taking my practice swing to
> the
> > ball'. I ultimately came to three conclusions.
> >
> > 1) My practice swings and my real swings are different events (just as my
> > tennis serve is different than my real swing). The fact that my practice
> > swing is better than my real swing is no more relevant to my progress than
> > the observation that Tiger's practice swing is better than my real swing.
> >
> > 2) Almost everybody's practice swing is better (by a large gin) than
> > their real swing. I would go so far as to say that 99% of the amateurs in
> > this golfing world have practice swings right now that are better than
> their
> > real swings EVER will be. The fact that 'taking your practice swing to the
> > ball' is not (explicitly) a key to the majority of teaching approaches
> > indicates to me that it probably isn't a particularly useful approach to
> > improvement.
> >
> > 3) There is a good chance that I am flat out wrong about all this.
> >
> > Based on my recent/annual 'golfing tune-up' visit with my instructor I am
> > working on lag and we are going at this from a "position drill"
> perspective
> > (as described in the initial post in the thread).
> >
> > I still wonder about the 'correct practice swing' thing, but in defense of
> > my position I'll offer the following. I have always had a backswing that
> > tended to swing too far inside and under the proper plane. It didn't exist
> > in my practice swing (probably never has). I've taken billions
> > (approximately) 'correct' practice backswings, but this is what it took to
> > fix my backswing.
> >
> > I went 'cold turkey'. The only kind of correct backswing (while hitting a
> > ball)I could make was 'in pieces' where I would insert a pause somewhere
> > going back. So I made a commitment to take 2000 swings (hitting a ball)
> > that were 'correct' without making a single incorrect swing. That meant,
> of
> > course, a pause (one or two depending) on EVERY swing. Since I practice or
> > play 6 days per week, this was not a Herculean effort (although it did
> > require not playing during this process).
> >
> > So I made nothing but these pausing swings and literally counted balls,
> > dutifully recording them after every practice session. I put a pile of 10
> > balls out, would remove 9 more balls from the bucket, hit those 9 and one
> of
> > the pile of 10, repeat. When the pile of 10 was gone I had hit 100 balls.
> I
> > tended to stop somewhere between 75 and 100 as I didn't really think that
> > more than 100 of these in a single session was helpful.
> >
> > After 1100 golf balls things felt different and after 1500 I terminated
> the
> > process. Where I am right now is that my 'pre-shot routine' is basically
> an
> > argument between my conscious and subconscious about the path that my
> > backswing is going to take. I generally win this argument these days. I'm
> > hopeful that someday I will be able to swing without having this argument.
> > But I'm not there yet. BTW, my instructor thinks I am nuts here and should
> > 'quit arguing'. I did a short practice session the other day videoing 10
> > minutes of practice balls with 'no argument'. That damned under plane
> > position was creeping back in minutes.
> >
> > My subconscious may be more intractable than is typical - not sure. But I
> > have not been able to effectively link non-ballstriking drills with any
> form
> > with ballstriking drills to achieve real swingchange results.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > ps. Obviously this is 'all in my head' - but it is the only head I've got
> so
> > I have to learn to live with it.
> >
> > <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> > news:1165067002.444275.12550@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Dave,
> > > You seen like one of the people on this group that really does approach
> > > the game in a logical way, and I like reading your posts because of
> > > this - you don't seem the type to get involved in religious wars.
> > > So I'll jump in and try and add my 2 cents because to be honest I had
> > > a look at some of the responses and although I respect other people's
> > > opinions, I think the issue of 'lag' is much simpler than most make
> > > out. I think part of the problem is that people confuse 'lag' with
> > > wristcock - but I believe that it is much easier to think of the two
> > > processes as separate entities. So for me, wristcock is essentially an
> > > up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
> > > of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
> > > the body. The big difference is that if we cock our wrists, we must
> > > also uncock them before impact or we will miss the ball. However,
> > > because 'lag' is a horizontal tendency, we can sustain it all the
> > > way to impact and beyond, and we should. If we lose 'lag' during
> > > the downswing, it is a sure sign that we are decelerating prematurely
> > > and this is the kiss of death to the golf swing. The only thing we have
> > > to do is learn to 'sustain the lag', whilst not impairing our
> > > ability to cock and uncock our wrists, and that IMO is where people
> > > struggle with the concept.
> > >
> > > So here's a drill. Get into your address position, then from there
> > > stand up straight and cock your wrists up slightly if necessary until
> > > the clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It should be toe up and the
> > > butt end of the shaft will probably point just left of your
> > > centre-line. Now, keeping the club toe-up, hinge your right wrist back
> > > and let your left wrist straighten up, still keeping the club toe-up
> > > and the shaft parallel to the ground, until the butt end of the shaft
> > > is pointing well past your left hip. It should be 35-45 degrees
> > > rotated from its original position. Now gently turn your body back and
> > > forth, keeping the same configuration of your wrists as you do so, and
> > > keeping the club toe-up and parallel to the ground. As you do this you
> > > can start to relax your wrists as you turn to the left, on the forward
> > > swing. You will find that the more you relax your wrists, the more the
> > > club naturally trails behind the hands. You will literally feel the
> > > inertia of the clubhead resisting the forward rotation of the body.
> > > This is 'lag' to me, and as you will hopefully experience if you
> > > try this, it is a perfectly natural phenomenon - lag is simply a
> > > consequence of the laws of physics, nothing more complicated than that.
> > > You should also notice that the configuration of your wrists as you do
> > > this exercise is exactly what it is, or should be, at the top of your
> > > swing. So all you have to do is learn to keep your wrists relaxed, and
> > > in this same configuration for as long as possible as you can during
> > > the downswing, whilst still allowing your wrists to uncock normally.
> > > You can get a sense of this by taking the horizontal swing I described
> > > and adding some up-and-down motion, let your wrist and right arm fold
> > > up during the backswing and let the right arm straighten and the wrists
> > > uncock downward during the forward swing. But focus on keeping the
> > > sense of 'lag' I described while you do this. This should give you
> > > a pretty good idea of how your full swing should feel, and in fact the
> > > motion is very similar to that of a real golf swing, except that you
> > > will be standing up straight.
> > >
> > > The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
> > > because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
> > > have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
> > > clubhead to impact. There are only three things that can be done. (1)
> > > You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
> > > this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
> > > you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
> > > worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
> > > all manner of awful shots. Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
> > > turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
> > > possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
> > > impact. The more lag you retain at impact, the more open your body must
> > > be, it's that simple, really.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps.
> > > Regards
> > > Babbs
> > >
> >
> >
|
| | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 23:54:45
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
<babblebrook1@eircom.net > wrote in message
news:1165150468.631998.166860@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> I think the top posting is my fault for making such a long post in the
> first place so apologies for that. I find your practice swing vs real
> swing problem a bit baffling. I can understand the swings being a bit
> different but the difference in lag is hard to grasp. But if you are
> happy with your practice swing - how about taking a slow-motion
> practice swing down to impact then working from this impact postion try
> hitting a few chip shots just by taking the club back and forth, just a
> short distance at first, making sure that you keep the clubhead
> lagging. After a few shots like this, you can start extending the swing
> further and further until you build up to what is almost a full swing.
> I use this as my warm-up drill at the start of every practice session -
> usually after I've done a few of the 'baseball' style practice swings I
> described. Have you tried this type of drill?
> The only other thing I can think of is to try doing something that I
> recently realized I have probably been doing most of my life. At
> address my eyes are looking at the ball, but my face is actually
> pointed well behind the ball to a point a few inches behind the middle
> of my stance. Then just before I start my backswing my eyes turn toward
> the spot where my face is pointed behind the ball. So throughout the
> swing I am only able to see the ball in my peripheral vision and I am
> not actually looking at the ball or focussed on anything really, but
> instead just staring blankly at this spot a foot or so behind the
> ball. I think this helps me to just trust my swing and let the ball get
> in the way. Something like this might help you to get over this glitch.
>
I've tried a variety of approaches to 'taking my practice swing to the ball'
without success. As I said before right now I am taking a 'positions drill'
approach to the issue. My 'best as I can do' partial wedge shots (or punch
shots) are somewhat better than my 'best as I can do' full shots, so drills
involving these are on my list (would be similar to your suggestion) as well
as the previously described dagger drill. I ultimately 'solved' my backswing
problem with a 'swing in pieces approach', so that is also an option. To be
perfectly honest I am less than pleased with how this is going and much of
this is because I do not know (without use of my camcorder) how to judge
improvement (or degradation).
Every time I type/think about this I get tempted to (yet again) try to
directly 'take my practice swing to the ball'. I've got a number of things
to explore here such as more work than before on hitting with my eyes
closed, a more through exploration of what kind of target 'turns off my
practice swing', and a bunch more. Just not sure.
dave
>
> rgds Babbs
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > Re: Attached (and yet another top-post)
> >
> > In further thinking - while I am relatively convinced that drills that
don't
> > involve hitting a golf ball will not work for me, a drill in a new
> > configuration (upright) might give me a feel that is different (and more
> > helpful) than what I am getting in a 'golfing configuration'. Honestly,
I
> > doubt it (for me, anyway). But I can't rule that out.
> >
> > I'll need to read your suggestion more carefully as I am familiar with
the
> > "baseball swing drill", but yours looked a bit different.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> > news:06lch.6496$1s6.5843@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > Re: Attached (top-posted for reading convenience - so sue me :-)
> > >
> > > Thanks for the interesting drill. But for me it isn't necessary as I
truly
> > > have no problem making a golf swing that completely solves this
problem. I
> > > can do this consistently and it requires no concentration or effort on
my
> > > part. The only issue is that it is my practice swing and it disappears
> > when
> > > there is a ball to be struck. There was an interesting thread on this
> > about
> > > a year ago that you can find in the link below. I had long ago dumped
the
> > > originating picture referenced in the thread so I replaced with
another.
> > > Yes, that is a tennis ball (part of an experiment that will probably
be
> > more
> > > clear if you wade through this thread)
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/y24395
> > >
> > > I worked a fair amount back then working on 'taking my practice swing
to
> > the
> > > ball'. I ultimately came to three conclusions.
> > >
> > > 1) My practice swings and my real swings are different events (just as
my
> > > tennis serve is different than my real swing). The fact that my
practice
> > > swing is better than my real swing is no more relevant to my progress
than
> > > the observation that Tiger's practice swing is better than my real
swing.
> > >
> > > 2) Almost everybody's practice swing is better (by a large gin)
than
> > > their real swing. I would go so far as to say that 99% of the amateurs
in
> > > this golfing world have practice swings right now that are better than
> > their
> > > real swings EVER will be. The fact that 'taking your practice swing to
the
> > > ball' is not (explicitly) a key to the majority of teaching approaches
> > > indicates to me that it probably isn't a particularly useful approach
to
> > > improvement.
> > >
> > > 3) There is a good chance that I am flat out wrong about all this.
> > >
> > > Based on my recent/annual 'golfing tune-up' visit with my instructor I
am
> > > working on lag and we are going at this from a "position drill"
> > perspective
> > > (as described in the initial post in the thread).
> > >
> > > I still wonder about the 'correct practice swing' thing, but in
defense of
> > > my position I'll offer the following. I have always had a backswing
that
> > > tended to swing too far inside and under the proper plane. It didn't
exist
> > > in my practice swing (probably never has). I've taken billions
> > > (approximately) 'correct' practice backswings, but this is what it
took to
> > > fix my backswing.
> > >
> > > I went 'cold turkey'. The only kind of correct backswing (while
hitting a
> > > ball)I could make was 'in pieces' where I would insert a pause
somewhere
> > > going back. So I made a commitment to take 2000 swings (hitting a
ball)
> > > that were 'correct' without making a single incorrect swing. That
meant,
> > of
> > > course, a pause (one or two depending) on EVERY swing. Since I
practice or
> > > play 6 days per week, this was not a Herculean effort (although it did
> > > require not playing during this process).
> > >
> > > So I made nothing but these pausing swings and literally counted
balls,
> > > dutifully recording them after every practice session. I put a pile of
10
> > > balls out, would remove 9 more balls from the bucket, hit those 9 and
one
> > of
> > > the pile of 10, repeat. When the pile of 10 was gone I had hit 100
balls.
> > I
> > > tended to stop somewhere between 75 and 100 as I didn't really think
that
> > > more than 100 of these in a single session was helpful.
> > >
> > > After 1100 golf balls things felt different and after 1500 I
terminated
> > the
> > > process. Where I am right now is that my 'pre-shot routine' is
basically
> > an
> > > argument between my conscious and subconscious about the path that my
> > > backswing is going to take. I generally win this argument these days.
I'm
> > > hopeful that someday I will be able to swing without having this
argument.
> > > But I'm not there yet. BTW, my instructor thinks I am nuts here and
should
> > > 'quit arguing'. I did a short practice session the other day videoing
10
> > > minutes of practice balls with 'no argument'. That damned under plane
> > > position was creeping back in minutes.
> > >
> > > My subconscious may be more intractable than is typical - not sure.
But I
> > > have not been able to effectively link non-ballstriking drills with
any
> > form
> > > with ballstriking drills to achieve real swingchange results.
> > >
> > > dave
> > >
> > > ps. Obviously this is 'all in my head' - but it is the only head I've
got
> > so
> > > I have to learn to live with it.
> > >
> > > <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> > > news:1165067002.444275.12550@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > > Dave,
> > > > You seen like one of the people on this group that really does
approach
> > > > the game in a logical way, and I like reading your posts because of
> > > > this - you don't seem the type to get involved in religious wars.
> > > > So I'll jump in and try and add my 2 cents because to be honest I
had
> > > > a look at some of the responses and although I respect other
people's
> > > > opinions, I think the issue of 'lag' is much simpler than most make
> > > > out. I think part of the problem is that people confuse 'lag' with
> > > > wristcock - but I believe that it is much easier to think of the two
> > > > processes as separate entities. So for me, wristcock is essentially
an
> > > > up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
> > > > of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation
of
> > > > the body. The big difference is that if we cock our wrists, we must
> > > > also uncock them before impact or we will miss the ball. However,
> > > > because 'lag' is a horizontal tendency, we can sustain it all the
> > > > way to impact and beyond, and we should. If we lose 'lag' during
> > > > the downswing, it is a sure sign that we are decelerating
prematurely
> > > > and this is the kiss of death to the golf swing. The only thing we
have
> > > > to do is learn to 'sustain the lag', whilst not impairing our
> > > > ability to cock and uncock our wrists, and that IMO is where people
> > > > struggle with the concept.
> > > >
> > > > So here's a drill. Get into your address position, then from there
> > > > stand up straight and cock your wrists up slightly if necessary
until
> > > > the clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It should be toe up and the
> > > > butt end of the shaft will probably point just left of your
> > > > centre-line. Now, keeping the club toe-up, hinge your right wrist
back
> > > > and let your left wrist straighten up, still keeping the club toe-up
> > > > and the shaft parallel to the ground, until the butt end of the
shaft
> > > > is pointing well past your left hip. It should be 35-45 degrees
> > > > rotated from its original position. Now gently turn your body back
and
> > > > forth, keeping the same configuration of your wrists as you do so,
and
> > > > keeping the club toe-up and parallel to the ground. As you do this
you
> > > > can start to relax your wrists as you turn to the left, on the
forward
> > > > swing. You will find that the more you relax your wrists, the more
the
> > > > club naturally trails behind the hands. You will literally feel the
> > > > inertia of the clubhead resisting the forward rotation of the body.
> > > > This is 'lag' to me, and as you will hopefully experience if you
> > > > try this, it is a perfectly natural phenomenon - lag is simply a
> > > > consequence of the laws of physics, nothing more complicated than
that.
> > > > You should also notice that the configuration of your wrists as you
do
> > > > this exercise is exactly what it is, or should be, at the top of
your
> > > > swing. So all you have to do is learn to keep your wrists relaxed,
and
> > > > in this same configuration for as long as possible as you can during
> > > > the downswing, whilst still allowing your wrists to uncock normally.
> > > > You can get a sense of this by taking the horizontal swing I
described
> > > > and adding some up-and-down motion, let your wrist and right arm
fold
> > > > up during the backswing and let the right arm straighten and the
wrists
> > > > uncock downward during the forward swing. But focus on keeping the
> > > > sense of 'lag' I described while you do this. This should give you
> > > > a pretty good idea of how your full swing should feel, and in fact
the
> > > > motion is very similar to that of a real golf swing, except that you
> > > > will be standing up straight.
> > > >
> > > > The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
> > > > because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
> > > > have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
> > > > clubhead to impact. There are only three things that can be done.
(1)
> > > > You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
> > > > this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
> > > > you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
> > > > worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
> > > > all manner of awful shots. Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
> > > > turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
> > > > possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
> > > > impact. The more lag you retain at impact, the more open your body
must
> > > > be, it's that simple, really.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Babbs
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
|
| |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 05:43:22
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
Dave,
You seen like one of the people on this group that really does approach
the game in a logical way, and I like reading your posts because of
this - you don't seem the type to get involved in religious wars.
So I'll jump in and try and add my 2 cents because to be honest I had
a look at some of the responses and although I respect other people's
opinions, I think the issue of 'lag' is much simpler than most make
out. I think part of the problem is that people confuse 'lag' with
wristcock - but I believe that it is much easier to think of the two
processes as separate entities. So for me, wristcock is essentially an
up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
the body. The big difference is that if we cock our wrists, we must
also uncock them before impact or we will miss the ball. However,
because 'lag' is a horizontal tendency, we can sustain it all the
way to impact and beyond, and we should. If we lose 'lag' during
the downswing, it is a sure sign that we are decelerating prematurely
and this is the kiss of death to the golf swing. The only thing we have
to do is learn to 'sustain the lag', whilst not impairing our
ability to cock and uncock our wrists, and that IMO is where people
struggle with the concept.
So here's a drill. Get into your address position, then from there
stand up straight and cock your wrists up slightly if necessary until
the clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It should be toe up and the
butt end of the shaft will probably point just left of your
centre-line. Now, keeping the club toe-up, hinge your right wrist back
and let your left wrist straighten up, still keeping the club toe-up
and the shaft parallel to the ground, until the butt end of the shaft
is pointing well past your left hip. It should be 35-45 degrees
rotated from its original position. Now gently turn your body back and
forth, keeping the same configuration of your wrists as you do so, and
keeping the club toe-up and parallel to the ground. As you do this you
can start to relax your wrists as you turn to the left, on the forward
swing. You will find that the more you relax your wrists, the more the
club naturally trails behind the hands. You will literally feel the
inertia of the clubhead resisting the forward rotation of the body.
This is 'lag' to me, and as you will hopefully experience if you
try this, it is a perfectly natural phenomenon - lag is simply a
consequence of the laws of physics, nothing more complicated than that.
You should also notice that the configuration of your wrists as you do
this exercise is exactly what it is, or should be, at the top of your
swing. So all you have to do is learn to keep your wrists relaxed, and
in this same configuration for as long as possible as you can during
the downswing, whilst still allowing your wrists to uncock normally.
You can get a sense of this by taking the horizontal swing I described
and adding some up-and-down motion, let your wrist and right arm fold
up during the backswing and let the right arm straighten and the wrists
uncock downward during the forward swing. But focus on keeping the
sense of 'lag' I described while you do this. This should give you
a pretty good idea of how your full swing should feel, and in fact the
motion is very similar to that of a real golf swing, except that you
will be standing up straight.
The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
clubhead to impact. There are only three things that can be done. (1)
You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
all manner of awful shots. Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
impact. The more lag you retain at impact, the more open your body must
be, it's that simple, really.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Babbs
|
| | |
Date: 04 Dec 2006 00:26:44
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 2 Dec 2006 05:43:22 -0800, babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
>So for me, wristcock is essentially an
>up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
>of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
>the body.
Lag causes the club to trail behind the hands on-plane. A horizontal
tendency would cause the club to swing off plane. All motions of the
club take place on-plane and every thing we do must be to comply with
that factor.
>The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
>because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
>have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
>clubhead to impact.
Um, no we don't. Correctly done there are no compensations in the golf
swing.
>There are only three things that can be done. (1)
>You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
>this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
>you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
>worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
>all manner of awful shots.
The arms swing forward in all golf swings, this is the purpose of
"triggering". First there is shoulder acceleration. This is followed
by triggering which leads to hand acceleration. Hand acceleration is
when the hands move away from the right shoulder (lengthening the 3
side of the triangle) as they over-take the left shoulder. Connection
ruins hand acceleration because it never allows the left arm to swing
free of the chest and the hands never over-take the left shoulder. It
would be like trying to get maximum clubhead speed never allowing the
clubhead to over-take your hands. The golf swing is an over-taking
process from the inside out, not a stifling process.
>Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
>turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
>possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
>impact.
No, there is the 4th and correct solution; From the top your right
arm straightens. The bending and straightening of the right arm cocks
and uncocks the left wrist. This is why extensor action is so
important, not only does it give structure to the triangle assembly it
will evenly and smoothly uncock your left wrist in the down swing so
there are no needs for compensations for or at impact.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 02 Dec 2006 20:11:40
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
Re: Attached (top-posted for reading convenience - so sue me :-)
Thanks for the interesting drill. But for me it isn't necessary as I truly
have no problem making a golf swing that completely solves this problem. I
can do this consistently and it requires no concentration or effort on my
part. The only issue is that it is my practice swing and it disappears when
there is a ball to be struck. There was an interesting thread on this about
a year ago that you can find in the link below. I had long ago dumped the
originating picture referenced in the thread so I replaced with another.
Yes, that is a tennis ball (part of an experiment that will probably be more
clear if you wade through this thread)
http://tinyurl.com/y24395
I worked a fair amount back then working on 'taking my practice swing to the
ball'. I ultimately came to three conclusions.
1) My practice swings and my real swings are different events (just as my
tennis serve is different than my real swing). The fact that my practice
swing is better than my real swing is no more relevant to my progress than
the observation that Tiger's practice swing is better than my real swing.
2) Almost everybody's practice swing is better (by a large gin) than
their real swing. I would go so far as to say that 99% of the amateurs in
this golfing world have practice swings right now that are better than their
real swings EVER will be. The fact that 'taking your practice swing to the
ball' is not (explicitly) a key to the majority of teaching approaches
indicates to me that it probably isn't a particularly useful approach to
improvement.
3) There is a good chance that I am flat out wrong about all this.
Based on my recent/annual 'golfing tune-up' visit with my instructor I am
working on lag and we are going at this from a "position drill" perspective
(as described in the initial post in the thread).
I still wonder about the 'correct practice swing' thing, but in defense of
my position I'll offer the following. I have always had a backswing that
tended to swing too far inside and under the proper plane. It didn't exist
in my practice swing (probably never has). I've taken billions
(approximately) 'correct' practice backswings, but this is what it took to
fix my backswing.
I went 'cold turkey'. The only kind of correct backswing (while hitting a
ball)I could make was 'in pieces' where I would insert a pause somewhere
going back. So I made a commitment to take 2000 swings (hitting a ball)
that were 'correct' without making a single incorrect swing. That meant, of
course, a pause (one or two depending) on EVERY swing. Since I practice or
play 6 days per week, this was not a Herculean effort (although it did
require not playing during this process).
So I made nothing but these pausing swings and literally counted balls,
dutifully recording them after every practice session. I put a pile of 10
balls out, would remove 9 more balls from the bucket, hit those 9 and one of
the pile of 10, repeat. When the pile of 10 was gone I had hit 100 balls. I
tended to stop somewhere between 75 and 100 as I didn't really think that
more than 100 of these in a single session was helpful.
After 1100 golf balls things felt different and after 1500 I terminated the
process. Where I am right now is that my 'pre-shot routine' is basically an
argument between my conscious and subconscious about the path that my
backswing is going to take. I generally win this argument these days. I'm
hopeful that someday I will be able to swing without having this argument.
But I'm not there yet. BTW, my instructor thinks I am nuts here and should
'quit arguing'. I did a short practice session the other day videoing 10
minutes of practice balls with 'no argument'. That damned under plane
position was creeping back in minutes.
My subconscious may be more intractable than is typical - not sure. But I
have not been able to effectively link non-ballstriking drills with any form
with ballstriking drills to achieve real swingchange results.
dave
ps. Obviously this is 'all in my head' - but it is the only head I've got so
I have to learn to live with it.
<babblebrook1@eircom.net > wrote in message
news:1165067002.444275.12550@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dave,
> You seen like one of the people on this group that really does approach
> the game in a logical way, and I like reading your posts because of
> this - you don't seem the type to get involved in religious wars.
> So I'll jump in and try and add my 2 cents because to be honest I had
> a look at some of the responses and although I respect other people's
> opinions, I think the issue of 'lag' is much simpler than most make
> out. I think part of the problem is that people confuse 'lag' with
> wristcock - but I believe that it is much easier to think of the two
> processes as separate entities. So for me, wristcock is essentially an
> up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
> of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
> the body. The big difference is that if we cock our wrists, we must
> also uncock them before impact or we will miss the ball. However,
> because 'lag' is a horizontal tendency, we can sustain it all the
> way to impact and beyond, and we should. If we lose 'lag' during
> the downswing, it is a sure sign that we are decelerating prematurely
> and this is the kiss of death to the golf swing. The only thing we have
> to do is learn to 'sustain the lag', whilst not impairing our
> ability to cock and uncock our wrists, and that IMO is where people
> struggle with the concept.
>
> So here's a drill. Get into your address position, then from there
> stand up straight and cock your wrists up slightly if necessary until
> the clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It should be toe up and the
> butt end of the shaft will probably point just left of your
> centre-line. Now, keeping the club toe-up, hinge your right wrist back
> and let your left wrist straighten up, still keeping the club toe-up
> and the shaft parallel to the ground, until the butt end of the shaft
> is pointing well past your left hip. It should be 35-45 degrees
> rotated from its original position. Now gently turn your body back and
> forth, keeping the same configuration of your wrists as you do so, and
> keeping the club toe-up and parallel to the ground. As you do this you
> can start to relax your wrists as you turn to the left, on the forward
> swing. You will find that the more you relax your wrists, the more the
> club naturally trails behind the hands. You will literally feel the
> inertia of the clubhead resisting the forward rotation of the body.
> This is 'lag' to me, and as you will hopefully experience if you
> try this, it is a perfectly natural phenomenon - lag is simply a
> consequence of the laws of physics, nothing more complicated than that.
> You should also notice that the configuration of your wrists as you do
> this exercise is exactly what it is, or should be, at the top of your
> swing. So all you have to do is learn to keep your wrists relaxed, and
> in this same configuration for as long as possible as you can during
> the downswing, whilst still allowing your wrists to uncock normally.
> You can get a sense of this by taking the horizontal swing I described
> and adding some up-and-down motion, let your wrist and right arm fold
> up during the backswing and let the right arm straighten and the wrists
> uncock downward during the forward swing. But focus on keeping the
> sense of 'lag' I described while you do this. This should give you
> a pretty good idea of how your full swing should feel, and in fact the
> motion is very similar to that of a real golf swing, except that you
> will be standing up straight.
>
> The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
> because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
> have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
> clubhead to impact. There are only three things that can be done. (1)
> You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
> this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
> you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
> worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
> all manner of awful shots. Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
> turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
> possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
> impact. The more lag you retain at impact, the more open your body must
> be, it's that simple, really.
>
> I hope this helps.
> Regards
> Babbs
>
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 06:49:23
From: Carbon
Subject: Re: Bush Learns Vietnam Lesson?????
|
On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:23:37 -0500, Head Shot wrote:
> I believe USA just wanted to put a puppet government in an oil producing
> state in the hopes that it snowballed through the Arab world over some
> period of time. They couldn't "puppet-ize" Iran or Saudi Arabia and
> keep Arab sentiment high; so they went after the only secular strongman
> on the block. Iraq was all about oil; and was never about WMD's or
> nukes. IMHO, of course.
I've always thought that. And with the exception of a few scattered
whackjobs who hang onto the WMD excuse, most people now believe the Bush
administration lied their way into this hopeless clusterfuck of a war.
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 12:30:20
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com > wrote in message
news:ZHuch.1312$lb1.1085@trnddc05...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:06lch.6496$1s6.5843@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Re: Attached (top-posted for reading convenience - so sue me :-)
> >
> > Thanks for the interesting drill. But for me it isn't necessary as I
truly
> > have no problem making a golf swing that completely solves this problem.
I
> > can do this consistently and it requires no concentration or effort on
my
> > part. The only issue is that it is my practice swing and it disappears
> > when
> > there is a ball to be struck.
>
> If you can do this with no concentration or effort during your practice
> swing, but not during your 'real' swing, perhaps the answer lies in the
> possibility that your 'real' swing is dominated by conentration and
effort.
>
> Callewey had a very simple drill, and I've found that it produces results
> that are astounishing considering the simplicity. The idea is to play a
> game that has nothing to do whatsoever with the results you get from
> swinging a golf club. In other words, if you shank the ball - but meet
the
> objectives of the new game - you win.
>
> The game is to focus on the clubhead's position to the exclusion of all
> else. You will try to say out loud 'Back' when your clubhead reaches the
> absolute end of the backswing, and 'Hit' at the exact moment of impact.
If
> you time those two events perfectly, you win the game. If you can say
those
> two words with a calm inflection, then you get bonus points (bonus points
> are especially hard, I've found). You might be surprised what you can do
> with a golf ball in the way, if the golf ball is merely in the way.
>
> Scott
>
>
I've used a similar technique quite extensively. It is based on Dr. Carey
Mumford's "Clear Key Golf". You basically learn to sync your swing with a
phrase of some kind. Mine is the word "onomatopoeia" said with a certain
rhythm and the 'pi' is to be exactly at impact. You concentrate ONLY on the
phrase and swinging to the phrase.
I've found it to be a very good swing management tool and was the basis of
my successfully taking the chickenwing out of my follow-through. Other swing
changes have not yielded to this technique.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Dec 2006 01:46:21
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
Re: Attached (and yet another top-post)
In further thinking - while I am relatively convinced that drills that don't
involve hitting a golf ball will not work for me, a drill in a new
configuration (upright) might give me a feel that is different (and more
helpful) than what I am getting in a 'golfing configuration'. Honestly, I
doubt it (for me, anyway). But I can't rule that out.
I'll need to read your suggestion more carefully as I am familiar with the
"baseball swing drill", but yours looked a bit different.
dave
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:06lch.6496$1s6.5843@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Re: Attached (top-posted for reading convenience - so sue me :-)
>
> Thanks for the interesting drill. But for me it isn't necessary as I truly
> have no problem making a golf swing that completely solves this problem. I
> can do this consistently and it requires no concentration or effort on my
> part. The only issue is that it is my practice swing and it disappears
when
> there is a ball to be struck. There was an interesting thread on this
about
> a year ago that you can find in the link below. I had long ago dumped the
> originating picture referenced in the thread so I replaced with another.
> Yes, that is a tennis ball (part of an experiment that will probably be
more
> clear if you wade through this thread)
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y24395
>
> I worked a fair amount back then working on 'taking my practice swing to
the
> ball'. I ultimately came to three conclusions.
>
> 1) My practice swings and my real swings are different events (just as my
> tennis serve is different than my real swing). The fact that my practice
> swing is better than my real swing is no more relevant to my progress than
> the observation that Tiger's practice swing is better than my real swing.
>
> 2) Almost everybody's practice swing is better (by a large gin) than
> their real swing. I would go so far as to say that 99% of the amateurs in
> this golfing world have practice swings right now that are better than
their
> real swings EVER will be. The fact that 'taking your practice swing to the
> ball' is not (explicitly) a key to the majority of teaching approaches
> indicates to me that it probably isn't a particularly useful approach to
> improvement.
>
> 3) There is a good chance that I am flat out wrong about all this.
>
> Based on my recent/annual 'golfing tune-up' visit with my instructor I am
> working on lag and we are going at this from a "position drill"
perspective
> (as described in the initial post in the thread).
>
> I still wonder about the 'correct practice swing' thing, but in defense of
> my position I'll offer the following. I have always had a backswing that
> tended to swing too far inside and under the proper plane. It didn't exist
> in my practice swing (probably never has). I've taken billions
> (approximately) 'correct' practice backswings, but this is what it took to
> fix my backswing.
>
> I went 'cold turkey'. The only kind of correct backswing (while hitting a
> ball)I could make was 'in pieces' where I would insert a pause somewhere
> going back. So I made a commitment to take 2000 swings (hitting a ball)
> that were 'correct' without making a single incorrect swing. That meant,
of
> course, a pause (one or two depending) on EVERY swing. Since I practice or
> play 6 days per week, this was not a Herculean effort (although it did
> require not playing during this process).
>
> So I made nothing but these pausing swings and literally counted balls,
> dutifully recording them after every practice session. I put a pile of 10
> balls out, would remove 9 more balls from the bucket, hit those 9 and one
of
> the pile of 10, repeat. When the pile of 10 was gone I had hit 100 balls.
I
> tended to stop somewhere between 75 and 100 as I didn't really think that
> more than 100 of these in a single session was helpful.
>
> After 1100 golf balls things felt different and after 1500 I terminated
the
> process. Where I am right now is that my 'pre-shot routine' is basically
an
> argument between my conscious and subconscious about the path that my
> backswing is going to take. I generally win this argument these days. I'm
> hopeful that someday I will be able to swing without having this argument.
> But I'm not there yet. BTW, my instructor thinks I am nuts here and should
> 'quit arguing'. I did a short practice session the other day videoing 10
> minutes of practice balls with 'no argument'. That damned under plane
> position was creeping back in minutes.
>
> My subconscious may be more intractable than is typical - not sure. But I
> have not been able to effectively link non-ballstriking drills with any
form
> with ballstriking drills to achieve real swingchange results.
>
> dave
>
> ps. Obviously this is 'all in my head' - but it is the only head I've got
so
> I have to learn to live with it.
>
> <babblebrook1@eircom.net> wrote in message
> news:1165067002.444275.12550@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Dave,
> > You seen like one of the people on this group that really does approach
> > the game in a logical way, and I like reading your posts because of
> > this - you don't seem the type to get involved in religious wars.
> > So I'll jump in and try and add my 2 cents because to be honest I had
> > a look at some of the responses and although I respect other people's
> > opinions, I think the issue of 'lag' is much simpler than most make
> > out. I think part of the problem is that people confuse 'lag' with
> > wristcock - but I believe that it is much easier to think of the two
> > processes as separate entities. So for me, wristcock is essentially an
> > up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
> > of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
> > the body. The big difference is that if we cock our wrists, we must
> > also uncock them before impact or we will miss the ball. However,
> > because 'lag' is a horizontal tendency, we can sustain it all the
> > way to impact and beyond, and we should. If we lose 'lag' during
> > the downswing, it is a sure sign that we are decelerating prematurely
> > and this is the kiss of death to the golf swing. The only thing we have
> > to do is learn to 'sustain the lag', whilst not impairing our
> > ability to cock and uncock our wrists, and that IMO is where people
> > struggle with the concept.
> >
> > So here's a drill. Get into your address position, then from there
> > stand up straight and cock your wrists up slightly if necessary until
> > the clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It should be toe up and the
> > butt end of the shaft will probably point just left of your
> > centre-line. Now, keeping the club toe-up, hinge your right wrist back
> > and let your left wrist straighten up, still keeping the club toe-up
> > and the shaft parallel to the ground, until the butt end of the shaft
> > is pointing well past your left hip. It should be 35-45 degrees
> > rotated from its original position. Now gently turn your body back and
> > forth, keeping the same configuration of your wrists as you do so, and
> > keeping the club toe-up and parallel to the ground. As you do this you
> > can start to relax your wrists as you turn to the left, on the forward
> > swing. You will find that the more you relax your wrists, the more the
> > club naturally trails behind the hands. You will literally feel the
> > inertia of the clubhead resisting the forward rotation of the body.
> > This is 'lag' to me, and as you will hopefully experience if you
> > try this, it is a perfectly natural phenomenon - lag is simply a
> > consequence of the laws of physics, nothing more complicated than that.
> > You should also notice that the configuration of your wrists as you do
> > this exercise is exactly what it is, or should be, at the top of your
> > swing. So all you have to do is learn to keep your wrists relaxed, and
> > in this same configuration for as long as possible as you can during
> > the downswing, whilst still allowing your wrists to uncock normally.
> > You can get a sense of this by taking the horizontal swing I described
> > and adding some up-and-down motion, let your wrist and right arm fold
> > up during the backswing and let the right arm straighten and the wrists
> > uncock downward during the forward swing. But focus on keeping the
> > sense of 'lag' I described while you do this. This should give you
> > a pretty good idea of how your full swing should feel, and in fact the
> > motion is very similar to that of a real golf swing, except that you
> > will be standing up straight.
> >
> > The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
> > because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
> > have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
> > clubhead to impact. There are only three things that can be done. (1)
> > You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
> > this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
> > you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
> > worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
> > all manner of awful shots. Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
> > turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
> > possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
> > impact. The more lag you retain at impact, the more open your body must
> > be, it's that simple, really.
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> > Regards
> > Babbs
> >
>
>
|
| |
Date: 30 Nov 2006 11:17:54
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 16:27:03 -0800, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
> >> >lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
> >> >are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
> >>
> >> Where can I learn more?
> >
> >Very funny. I bet you can teach this stuff to us if you choose. It is
> >all fairly new to me.
>
> Nope. I was serious. These 3 types is something new to me.
Those facts are straight from The Golfing Machine. Either buy the book
or go to LynnBlakeGolf.com. Very good information about the golf swing
resides in those places.
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 08:59:28
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
David Laville wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 10:53:50 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >My personal opinion is that if you don't get rid of the lag by impact,
> >then there is a problem.
>
> If you get rid of lag before impact you have clubhead throwaway. You
> dump lag in the upstroke when the clubhead passes your hands.
>
> >I think lag is independent of these types of swings, even though this
> >is very good description of swings that aren't usually discussed. One
> >can hit the ball very well without any lag at all.
>
> Sure you can, you can hit the ball well with any swing if you practice
> it enough. Moe Norman was proof of that. But why try to defy
> physics when you can make it easier on yourself and comply with it?
>
Of course one can add some power when you add lag, but it gives one a
perspective. Some might think lot's of wrist cock equal a good thing,
and it could be just the opposite. I didn't say I use it as my swing,
I just like to demonstrate it, and actually it could work in a tight
situation in some trouble on the course.
CJ
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 07:28:54
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Nov 29, 6:38 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in messagenews:nK5bh.20346$Q7.19928@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >news:e73bh.4533$tM1.1450@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> > > George, in a nutshell are you saying that my hips need to slide more to
> > > the
> > > left starting down?
>
> > > dave
>
> > Absolutely. Big time. And in doing so, to swivel the shoulders on the
> same
> > plane as the swing, slanted sternum to ball.George, I definitely have an arms driven swing rather than the body driven
> style most common on the tour. But two points.
>
> 1) I don't think that additional hip movement toward the target would be
> useful. That piece is already there.
>
> 2) I am assuming that reasonable lag (better than what I've got) is
> achieveable with a "de la Torre style" arms driven swing. But maybe I'm
> wrong about that.
I think you can, but it is like swimming upstream.
>
> The best demonstration I have ever seen regarding the torque that I am
> missing (good lag or not) is this url
>
> http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/dtcomp.jpg
>
> From that it is really obvious what David Toms' body is contributing to the
> swing (where mine is not). There are a lot of differences (shoulder turn,
> head behind the ball, etc), but hip motion toward the ball simply isn't one
> of them.
Two points from this photo:
- Look at where his belt buckle is pointed, even this early in the
swing.
- Look at where his head is vs the ball, vs yours. I know you
mentioned
that already, but that is a big thing to dwell on, not something to
lightly
brush off as just a "difference".
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 15:48:37
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164814134.844104.273960@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 29, 6:38 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in
messagenews:nK5bh.20346$Q7.19928@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> > >news:e73bh.4533$tM1.1450@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > > George, in a nutshell are you saying that my hips need to slide more
to
> > > > the
> > > > left starting down?
> >
> > > > dave
> >
> > > Absolutely. Big time. And in doing so, to swivel the shoulders on
the
> > same
> > > plane as the swing, slanted sternum to ball.George, I definitely have
an arms driven swing rather than the body driven
> > style most common on the tour. But two points.
> >
> > 1) I don't think that additional hip movement toward the target would be
> > useful. That piece is already there.
> >
> > 2) I am assuming that reasonable lag (better than what I've got) is
> > achieveable with a "de la Torre style" arms driven swing. But maybe I'm
> > wrong about that.
>
> I think you can, but it is like swimming upstream.
>
> >
> > The best demonstration I have ever seen regarding the torque that I am
> > missing (good lag or not) is this url
> >
> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/dtcomp.jpg
> >
> > From that it is really obvious what David Toms' body is contributing to
the
> > swing (where mine is not). There are a lot of differences (shoulder
turn,
> > head behind the ball, etc), but hip motion toward the ball simply isn't
one
> > of them.
>
> Two points from this photo:
>
> - Look at where his belt buckle is pointed, even this early in the
> swing.
>
> - Look at where his head is vs the ball, vs yours. I know you
> mentioned
> that already, but that is a big thing to dwell on, not something to
> lightly
> brush off as just a "difference".
>
In my mind it isn't what happens early, but what happens late.
My belt buckle and David T's are pretty much the same place when the arm is
basically parallel. But later in the downswing my hips are still sliding
left (and turning). David's does nothing from that point but turn.
But I am a magician at making swing changes that feel WAY different, mess
things up, and are indistinguishable (on video) from where they started :-)
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 23:50:38
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 15:48:37 GMT, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
>http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/dtcomp.jpg
>My belt buckle and David T's are pretty much the same place when the arm is
>basically parallel. But later in the downswing my hips are still sliding
>left (and turning). David's does nothing from that point but turn.
I think we have to ask why does David Toms turn his hips so much. Did
his teachers believe you start the downswing by "turning your hips and
clearing your left side"? I see no mechanical advantage to this much
hip turn so I have to believe this is what he was taught.
Go back to that link and look at his right forearm, it's parallel to
the ground instead of being on plane - OUCH!
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 06:55:12
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Nov 28, 7:53 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in messagenews:e73bh.4533$tM1.1450@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> > George, in a nutshell are you saying that my hips need to slide more to
> > the
> > left starting down?
>
> > daveAbsolutely. Big time. And in doing so, to swivel the shoulders on the same
> plane as the swing, slanted sternum to ball.
If you look at the players a few decades ago, like Nicklaus and Miller
in their prime,
they certainly had massive lateral hip shifts, and no question
generated a lot of distance
from it. But a lot of the modern players have toned down that hip
shift in favor
of consistency. Faldo said he did exactly that in his book. Probably
influenced
by Leadbetter.
But all the pros still have large hip turns. I think as long as you
set the weight
into the left hip, and then turn, you can have a decent swing.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 15:23:06
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164812112.332926.289120@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 28, 7:53 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> > "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in
messagenews:e73bh.4533$tM1.1450@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > > George, in a nutshell are you saying that my hips need to slide more
to
> > > the
> > > left starting down?
> >
> > > daveAbsolutely. Big time. And in doing so, to swivel the shoulders
on the same
> > plane as the swing, slanted sternum to ball.
>
> If you look at the players a few decades ago, like Nicklaus and Miller
> in their prime,
> they certainly had massive lateral hip shifts, and no question
> generated a lot of distance
> from it. But a lot of the modern players have toned down that hip
> shift in favor
> of consistency. Faldo said he did exactly that in his book. Probably
> influenced
> by Leadbetter.
>
> But all the pros still have large hip turns. I think as long as you
> set the weight
> into the left hip, and then turn, you can have a decent swing.
>
An interesting comment. This was back in 1998 in California. I had not
touched a golf club since the late 1970's. I was going to play a round with
my father and decided that if I was ever going to take a lesson Now was the
time. I had played a bunch as a teen to maybe a 9-10 handicap, but quit in
my mid-20's.
So I showed up literally 20 or so years since my last swing. The teaching
pro said two things.
1) We're going to have to improve your turn
2) That Arnold Palmer hip slide you've got going has got to go.
We worked mostly on the turn, I made a few range trips, played a round with
Dad, and didn't touch a club again for a couple more years (after moving to
NC).
dave
|
| |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:27:03
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2006 11:04:13 -0800, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
> >lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
> >are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
>
> Where can I learn more?
Very funny. I bet you can teach this stuff to us if you choose. It is
all fairly new to me.
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 03:56:37
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On 28 Nov 2006 16:27:03 -0800, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>> >Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
>> >lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
>> >are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
>>
>> Where can I learn more?
>
>Very funny. I bet you can teach this stuff to us if you choose. It is
>all fairly new to me.
Nope. I was serious. These 3 types is something new to me.
|
| |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 11:04:13
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
Dave,
I have been thinking about your question since yesterday. In my
practice swings I look for different feels that I want during my swing.
Focusing on loading lag pressure usually works nicely because I will
find the length of stroke that I want and find the point where the lag
is loaded. So I try to find where that will happen and what it will
feel like before I hit the shot. Instead of playing a guessing game
and just hitting the ball with no practice swings. That is how I
played in the past, but I have found I play much better when I rehearse
before my shot.
The loading of the lag is the same with the practice swing, but the
sensation around the point of impact is obviously different.
I thought you were trying to improve lag....not find it. If that is
the case then, have you ever read Ben Hogan's '5 lessons' ? He
suggests swinging the club with your right thumb and forefinger off of
the club. I find this a great way to find my lag pressure point. It
is great to hit balls like this. You can also swing with only your
right thumb taken off the grip. Hitting balls both ways is a great way
to find your clubhead lag. I think that is how I really first starting
getting feedback from my right index finger. Just combine that with
the old 'drag my wet mop' and you will find that lag.
Tell me what you feel when you drag the club on the ground past your
right foot, then left foot. What do you feel when you hit chip shots
with your right thumb and forefinger off the club ?
Dave Lee wrote:
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> snip
>
> I've read of lag pressure, but am not sure that I have ever felt it. I'm
> curious - do you feel this when you take a "serious practice swing" as well
> as a real swing at a ball? I ask because the lag in my "serious practice
> swings" is quite good, but the pressure that I feel is not any different.
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 04:11:59
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
David Laville wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2006 04:13:08 -0800, "Dave Lee"
> <DaveLeeNC-RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Hmmm, that would imply that a hitters stroke pattern is some set of
> >biomechanics that are "in addition to" the biomechanics of a swinger.
> >Is that right? Doesn't sound right, somehow.
>
> I don't think the right term is "in addition to". "An alternative"
> would probably be better.
>
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
I just wondered why the SLAP process yielded a Swinger's hitting
pattern. I assume that the professional players that he analyzed was a
mixture of hitters and swingers. It just seems a bit odd.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Dec 2006 01:27:39
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 13 Dec 2006 04:11:59 -0800, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC-RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>I just wondered why the SLAP process yielded a Swinger's hitting
>pattern. I assume that the professional players that he analyzed was a
>mixture of hitters and swingers. It just seems a bit odd.
Most of the players on tour are swingers. Do you know of any top
instructor who teaches you to swing the club by actively straightening
your right arm from the top? I can't think of any.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 22:45:18
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On 28 Nov 2006 11:04:13 -0800, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
>lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
>are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
Where can I learn more?
|
| | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 20:44:02
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1164740653.329192.48180@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Remember, there are 3 types of lag. Some people are refering to pivot
> lag and others are referring to clubhead lag. Both are good, but they
> are different. The third type is accumulator lag.
>
> Dave,
>
> I have been thinking about your question since yesterday. In my
> practice swings I look for different feels that I want during my swing.
> Focusing on loading lag pressure usually works nicely because I will
> find the length of stroke that I want and find the point where the lag
> is loaded. So I try to find where that will happen and what it will
> feel like before I hit the shot. Instead of playing a guessing game
> and just hitting the ball with no practice swings. That is how I
> played in the past, but I have found I play much better when I rehearse
> before my shot.
>
> The loading of the lag is the same with the practice swing, but the
> sensation around the point of impact is obviously different.
>
> I thought you were trying to improve lag....not find it. If that is
> the case then, have you ever read Ben Hogan's '5 lessons' ? He
> suggests swinging the club with your right thumb and forefinger off of
> the club. I find this a great way to find my lag pressure point. It
> is great to hit balls like this. You can also swing with only your
> right thumb taken off the grip. Hitting balls both ways is a great way
> to find your clubhead lag. I think that is how I really first starting
> getting feedback from my right index finger. Just combine that with
> the old 'drag my wet mop' and you will find that lag.
>
> Tell me what you feel when you drag the club on the ground past your
> right foot, then left foot. What do you feel when you hit chip shots
> with your right thumb and forefinger off the club ?
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > > Dave Lee wrote:
> > snip
> >
I'm at a slight disadvantage here because my knee and toe injury problems
(very temporary) keep me from doing any real swings right now. That said ...
While I have read TGM I am not TGM literate and my definitions may be
different than TGM's. When I say I need to improve my lag, I am specifically
referring to the fact that the angle between the shaft and my forearm opens
too quickly. The end result is
1) a loss of power over what (IMHO - maybe I am wrong) I could otherwise
achieve.
2) an inferior impact position leading to a measure of inconsistency. At
impact the shaft is basically pointed at my left (leading) ear, rather than
being in a straight line with my left forearm.
FWIW, my index bounces around in the 5.5 to 7.5 range (currently 5.7), a
very good (but hardly unheard of) drive for me on flat/watered fairways is
around 250, and I have a long/smooth type swing. In TGM terms I am probably
a swinger, but this is just a semi-informed guess.
I have practiced before with my right forefinger and thumb off the club. I
worked more on intermediate LW pitch shots that way vs. full strokes. But I
was surprised at little difference that made. Of course a key pressure
point (as I understand it) is the base of the trailing forefinger, and the
only way to make that go away is to take your whole trailing palm off the
club.
When I do the "mop drill" I feel the pressure points as the base of my
trailing forefinger (which feels relatively specific) and the back of my
leading hand (this pressure feels MUCH more spread out and "general" for
lack of a better term). I am a reasonably good chipper (and pitcher, for
that matter). I would say that I can relate to this feeling in chipping,
tend to lose it in pitching, and that just doesn't feel like what is going
on with my full swing.
Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are dealing
with (22* hybrid)
http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames and I
could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect there is
more to it than this.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:25:05
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> snip
>
> Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are
> dealing
> with (22* hybrid)
>
> http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
>
> I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames
> and I
> could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
> there is
> more to it than this.
>
> dave
>
>
As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
don't start rotating your
hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order
to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
the biomechanics.
Gary
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Dec 2006 14:48:49
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
David Laville wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2006 04:11:59 -0800, "Dave Lee"
> <DaveLeeNC-RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >I just wondered why the SLAP process yielded a Swinger's hitting
> >pattern. I assume that the professional players that he analyzed was a
> >mixture of hitters and swingers. It just seems a bit odd.
>
> Most of the players on tour are swingers. Do you know of any top
> instructor who teaches you to swing the club by actively straightening
> your right arm from the top? I can't think of any.
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
Thanks for the info.
dave
ps. None of the top tour teachers that I have taken lessons from teach
you to actively straighten your right arm from the top :-)
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 03:06:07
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:25:05 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca >
wrote:
>As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
>don't start rotating your
>hips more.
Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
>You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
trying to become in-line that create it.
>In order
>to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
>your downswing with hip rotation.
And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>The best golfers will begin
>rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>completed.
They slide them back they don't rotate them back.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | | | | |
Date: 09 Dec 2006 01:41:53
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:291fn2p1i492245pcmu5hktesnm3ubaour@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:25:05 -0500, "GaryC_47"
> <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>>simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if
>>you
>>don't start rotating your
>>hips more.
>
> Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by
> applying a
> constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it
> accelerating.
Perhaps in my effort to be brief I assumed that the connection
between hip rotation, shoulder rotation, arm swing speed and "lag"
were obvious. I was making observations based on four swing images,
not writing a "how to".
>
>>You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>>accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>
> It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned
> components
> trying to become in-line that create it.
My point was that the desired wrist cock is a result of the
acceleration of the arms. Like you said.
>
>>In order
>>to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have
>>begun
>>your downswing with hip rotation.
>
> And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing
> with
> a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly
> flinging
> the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip
> slide
> that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane
> so
> you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> moving on plane you can turn your hips.
I agree that there is a lateral hip slide, initiated by a push off
the back leg, to start the downswing. The hips can then immediately
begin rotating. Assuming the player is aligned correctly to the
target and the proper address posture is maintained there is no OTT
move once the shoulders are rotating.
(This is not the only way to swing the golf club. I also like a
compact arm swing
but that's a subject for a different thread.)
>
>>The best golfers will begin
>>rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>>completed.
>
> They slide them back they don't rotate them back.
Right. They slide them back, but not more than a few inches, then
rotate them.
You forgot to quote the following from my post which is important if
you
want to understand how the hips, shoulders and arms are linked to
create
a powerful swing.
"Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
the biomechanics."
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
As an aside, are you currently actively teaching now? I noticed
your name on the TGM list
of instructors.
Gary
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 02:43:32
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:41:53 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca >
wrote:
>Perhaps in my effort to be brief I assumed that the connection
>between hip rotation, shoulder rotation, arm swing speed and "lag"
>were obvious. I was making observations based on four swing images,
>not writing a "how to".
What four swing images?
>I agree that there is a lateral hip slide, initiated by a push off
>the back leg, to start the downswing.
There is no push off the back leg to start the downswing. The hips
work in two ways; hip action and motion. Hip action starts the down
swing by leading and powering the down stroke shoulder turn. Hip
motion is the motion the hips make in shifting your body mass left and
right of center in order to shift your weight. It is not necessary to
push of your back leg to move your hips. If you do have to push off
than all you're doing is substituting a push for faulty hip motion and
action.
>The hips can then immediately
>begin rotating. Assuming the player is aligned correctly to the
>target and the proper address posture is maintained there is no OTT
>move once the shoulders are rotating.
>
>(This is not the only way to swing the golf club. I also like a
>compact arm swing
>but that's a subject for a different thread.)
If you like a compact arm swing than I assume you must also like drive
loading and angle of approaches, right?
>You forgot to quote the following from my post which is important if
>you
>want to understand how the hips, shoulders and arms are linked to
>create
>a powerful swing.
>
>"Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
>the biomechanics."
Okay, thanks.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 19:41:30
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:eehpn2te1q2naa01lp9074iujb8f6cnnjj@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:41:53 -0500, "GaryC_47"
> <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps in my effort to be brief I assumed that the connection
>>between hip rotation, shoulder rotation, arm swing speed and
>>"lag"
>>were obvious. I was making observations based on four swing
>>images,
>>not writing a "how to".
>
> What four swing images?
The four images the OP posted.
http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
It would have been better if he had posted the entire swing sequence
from address to finish, of course.
>
>>I agree that there is a lateral hip slide, initiated by a push
>>off
>>the back leg, to start the downswing.
>
> There is no push off the back leg to start the downswing. The
> hips
> work in two ways; hip action and motion. Hip action starts the
> down
> swing by leading and powering the down stroke shoulder turn. Hip
> motion is the motion the hips make in shifting your body mass left
> and
> right of center in order to shift your weight. It is not
> necessary to
> push of your back leg to move your hips. If you do have to push
> off
> than all you're doing is substituting a push for faulty hip motion
> and
> action.
It's not necessary to push off the back leg to start the downswing.
The push off the back leg is a more aggressive move that gets the
hips rotating faster, particularly effective for those who have
"slow" hips.
>
>>The hips can then immediately
>>begin rotating. Assuming the player is aligned correctly to the
>>target and the proper address posture is maintained there is no
>>OTT
>>move once the shoulders are rotating.
>>
>>(This is not the only way to swing the golf club. I also like a
>>compact arm swing
>>but that's a subject for a different thread.)
>
> If you like a compact arm swing than I assume you must also like
> drive
> loading and angle of approaches, right?
I'm not familiar with TGM terminolgy so I don't know whether I do or
not.
>
>>You forgot to quote the following from my post which is important
>>if
>>you
>>want to understand how the hips, shoulders and arms are linked to
>>create
>>a powerful swing.
>>
>>"Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
>>the biomechanics."
>
> Okay, thanks.
Did you do some research on kinetic link? It is amazing what has
been learned recently using modern technology. I wonder how modern
biomechanics relates to TGM? It is certainly clear to me that
fitness and biomechanics play a significant role in a golfers
ability to make an effective swing. I have been working at those
areas for the past two years.
>
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
As an aside, are you currently actively teaching now? I noticed
your name on the TGM list of instructors.
Gary
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 02:58:52
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:41:30 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca >
wrote:
>Did you do some research on kinetic link? It is amazing what has
>been learned recently using modern technology. I wonder how modern
>biomechanics relates to TGM?
Dr. Ralph Mann a Ph.D in biomechanics filmed the swings of over 100+
touring pros and using computer technology he kept what they all did
in common and tossed out what they did differently. When he finished
he had a computer model of what all the pros had in common. Using his
background and education in biomechanics he explained what they did
and why they did it.
His computer model was nothing more than the swingers stroke pattern
from TGM.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 09 Dec 2006 06:38:34
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca > wrote in message
news:QUseh.53051$4A.706787@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:291fn2p1i492245pcmu5hktesnm3ubaour@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:25:05 -0500, "GaryC_47"
>> <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>>>simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if
>>>you
>>>don't start rotating your
>>>hips more.
>>
>> Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by
>> applying a
>> constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it
>> accelerating.
>
> Perhaps in my effort to be brief I assumed that the connection
> between hip rotation, shoulder rotation, arm swing speed and "lag"
> were obvious. I was making observations based on four swing images,
> not writing a "how to".
>
>>
>>>You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>>>accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>>
>> It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned
>> components
>> trying to become in-line that create it.
>
> My point was that the desired wrist cock is a result of the
> acceleration of the arms. Like you said.
>
>>
>>>In order
>>>to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have
>>>begun
>>>your downswing with hip rotation.
>>
>> And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing
>> with
>> a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly
>> flinging
>> the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip
>> slide
>> that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane
>> so
>> you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
>> moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>
> I agree that there is a lateral hip slide, initiated by a push off
> the back leg, to start the downswing. The hips can then immediately
> begin rotating. Assuming the player is aligned correctly to the
> target and the proper address posture is maintained there is no OTT
> move once the shoulders are rotating.
>
> (This is not the only way to swing the golf club. I also like a compact
> arm swing
> but that's a subject for a different thread.)
>
>>
>>>The best golfers will begin
>>>rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>>>completed.
>>
>> They slide them back they don't rotate them back.
>
> Right. They slide them back, but not more than a few inches, then rotate
> them.
>
The SLIDE is what brings the right shoulder, right elbow, right hand, and
club A LONG WAYS DOWN ON PLANE before rotation takes over for the rest.
Without that slide- small as it is - anywhere from say 3" to 10" depending
on the golfer (Austin's was 15" from top of swing to just after impact!) the
difficulty of swinging on plane is just about nil, and in addition the body
simply does not do the work IT can do. If you are driving in a drag race,
you do not 'wait' until halfway to the finish line before putting on the
gas! With hip slide you can put on the gas at the beginning of the
downswing with impunity.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 06:55:48
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:291fn2p1i492245pcmu5hktesnm3ubaour@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:25:05 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>>simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
>>don't start rotating your
>>hips more.
>
> Lag has nothing to do with hip rotation. Lag is created by applying a
> constant and steady pressure to the club that keeps it accelerating.
>
>>You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>>accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>
> It's thrust and acceleration flowing from out-of-aligned components
> trying to become in-line that create it.
>
>>In order
>>to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
>>your downswing with hip rotation.
>
> And you'll come over the top every time. Starting the downswing with
> a hip turn causes the upper body and shoulders to turn flatly flinging
> the club over the top. The downswing starts with a lateral hip slide
> that tilts the spine causing the right shoulder to work down-plane so
> you can swing the club down-plane. Once the right shoulder gets
> moving on plane you can turn your hips.
>
>>The best golfers will begin
>>rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>>completed.
>
> They slide them back they don't rotate them back.
>
I can't imagine why someone would'nt be able to master the golf swing in the
first hour or so. I mean, it's so straightforward. What's to be confused
about?
Scott
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 02:42:55
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:55:48 GMT, "S McFarlane" <spam@nothanks.com >
wrote:
>I can't imagine why someone would'nt be able to master the golf swing in the
>first hour or so. I mean, it's so straightforward. What's to be confused
>about?
From a physics and geometrical standpoint it's straightforward. In
fact it's ridiculously simple. The problem starts when people try to
use instincts to hit a golf ball and instincts don't work. If they
did everyone would be shooting par or better.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 01:01:20
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca > wrote in message
news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > snip
> >
> > Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are
> > dealing
> > with (22* hybrid)
> >
> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
> >
> > I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames
> > and I
> > could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
> > there is
> > more to it than this.
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> don't start rotating your
> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order
> to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
> rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
> the biomechanics.
>
> Gary
>
>
This should be interesting and may well represent the point where you run
into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact that this
is as good as it will get).
dave
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 14:02:48
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > snip
>> >
>> > Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we
>> > are
>> > dealing
>> > with (22* hybrid)
>> >
>> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
>> >
>> > I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two
>> > frames
>> > and I
>> > could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
>> > there is
>> > more to it than this.
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>> simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if
>> you
>> don't start rotating your
>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>> arms
>> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In
>> order
>> to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have
>> begun
>> your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
>> rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>> completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation
>> of
>> the biomechanics.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>
> This should be interesting and may well represent the point where
> you run
> into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact
> that this
> is as good as it will get).
>
> dave
>
Don't be silly. It's a natural motion. Try doing underhand throwing
motions from your atheletic address position (no club) while holding
a wall or a cart with your front arm extended in front of you. If
your hips don't turn your throwing arm will be restricted and your
weight won't transfer to the front leg. Once you're comfortable with
the feeling of the hips rotating at least 30 degrees grab a 7 iron
and do some little half swings. You'll see how nice and natural it
feels.
Make sure you are sufficiently bent forward from the hips in your
address posture. It was difficult to determine from the photos you
posted, since we didn't see the address position, but you looked a
bit too upright to me.
Gary
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 22:22:20
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca > wrote in message
news:jtEdh.122686$Cu4.1975675@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> > news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
> >>
> > This should be interesting and may well represent the point where
> > you run
> > into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact
> > that this
> > is as good as it will get).
> >
> > dave
> >
>
> Don't be silly. It's a natural motion. Try doing underhand throwing
> motions from your atheletic address position (no club) while holding
> a wall or a cart with your front arm extended in front of you. If
> your hips don't turn your throwing arm will be restricted and your
> weight won't transfer to the front leg. Once you're comfortable with
> the feeling of the hips rotating at least 30 degrees grab a 7 iron
> and do some little half swings. You'll see how nice and natural it
> feels.
>
> Make sure you are sufficiently bent forward from the hips in your
> address posture. It was difficult to determine from the photos you
> posted, since we didn't see the address position, but you looked a
> bit too upright to me.
>
> Gary
>
I guess that easy is in the body of the beholder. I can do that stuff in my
practice swings. I simply have never been able to "take it to the ball" (see
my "Swing Frustrations" thread that started on 12/29/05).
We'll just have to wait and see where my current set of drills ultimately
takes me. The is probably backwards, but maintaining lag in the dagger drill
(briefly described in the originating post) is easier with more hip-turn and
achieveable (for me), at least until the last 'thrust' when you hit the
ball. I'm hopeful that this will lead somewhere positive (more hopeful than
I was just two days ago).
I've just spent too much time in the past with exercizes of various forms
that demonstrate to my subconscious how it should be done, only to see the
effects disappear 'at the ball'. My experience says that (for me) if the
drill doesn't include full swing ball contact, it isn't going to be
effective. As I said earlier it is obviously all in my mind, but it is the
only one I've got so I have to learn to live with it.
dave
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 17:18:06
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >
>> > snip
>> >
>> > Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are
>> > dealing
>> > with (22* hybrid)
>> >
>> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
>> >
>> > I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames
>> > and I
>> > could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
>> > there is
>> > more to it than this.
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>> simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
>> don't start rotating your
>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order
>> to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
>> your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
>> rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>> completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
>> the biomechanics.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>
> This should be interesting and may well represent the point where you run
> into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact that
> this
> is as good as it will get).
>
> dave
>
Dave,
The HoganTip video that Annika posts from time to
time illustrates this exact point and is the best short
lesson I know. It's up on my desktop and I play
it every day. This really is the answer to your problem
and I'll guarantee you can master it within a few days.
Alan
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 07 Dec 2006 12:41:06
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote in message
news:3radnXB8r4SnZuvYRVnyjA@bt.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
snip
> The HoganTip video that Annika posts from time to
> time illustrates this exact point and is the best short
> lesson I know. It's up on my desktop and I play
> it every day. This really is the answer to your problem
> and I'll guarantee you can master it within a few days.
>
> Alan
>
>
Thanks to Alan for sending me the video.
What is fascinating about this is that I started with the dagger drill as
described in the originating post. After working with this drill for a while
and thinking about it (and the discussion on this and other boards was
helpful), what I ended up doing mentally and physically with this drill is
EXACTLY what Hogan describes in the video.
Somebody wake old Ben up and tell him that he really did get it right :-)
dave
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 22:01:06
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote in message
news:3radnXB8r4SnZuvYRVnyjA@bt.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> > news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
> >>
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >
> >> > snip
> >> >
> >> > Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are
> >> > dealing
> >> > with (22* hybrid)
> >> >
> >> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
> >> >
> >> > I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames
> >> > and I
> >> > could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
> >> > there is
> >> > more to it than this.
> >> >
> >> > dave
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
> >> simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
> >> don't start rotating your
> >> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> >> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order
> >> to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
> >> your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
> >> rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
> >> completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
> >> the biomechanics.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >>
> >
> > This should be interesting and may well represent the point where you
run
> > into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact that
> > this
> > is as good as it will get).
> >
> > dave
> >
> Dave,
>
> The HoganTip video that Annika posts from time to
> time illustrates this exact point and is the best short
> lesson I know. It's up on my desktop and I play
> it every day. This really is the answer to your problem
> and I'll guarantee you can master it within a few days.
>
> Alan
>
>
I don't recall that one. If Bret is watching, maybe he'll post it again.
dave
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 10:41:05
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:18:06 -0000, "Alan Murphy"
<afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote:
>"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>news:ADodh.7867$1s6.1223@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
>> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>>
>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> >
>>> > snip
>>> >
>>> > Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are
>>> > dealing
>>> > with (22* hybrid)
>>> >
>>> > http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
>>> >
>>> > I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames
>>> > and I
>>> > could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect
>>> > there is
>>> > more to it than this.
>>> >
>>> > dave
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> As George Hibbard indicated, you lack lower body rotation. Quite
>>> simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if you
>>> don't start rotating your
>>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
>>> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order
>>> to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun
>>> your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin
>>> rotating the hips toward the target before the backswing is
>>> completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for an explanation of
>>> the biomechanics.
Yep, everyone should watch Bobby Jones-- those old movie clips, now
available on video, explain why he was among the longest hitters of
his day-- he usually won the "long drive" contest before most
tournaments. He thought the power of the golf swing was the hips. He
used an extremely loose grip-- extremely loose arm tension, he allowed
the club to actually flop in his loosened left hand at the top-- He
proves that the whole deal is to throw the clubhead at the ball-- with
almost no attempt to "guide" or control it from the handle.
Larry
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This should be interesting and may well represent the point where you run
>> into a dead end (either a complete swing overhaul or face the fact that
>> this
>> is as good as it will get).
>>
>> dave
>>
>Dave,
>
>The HoganTip video that Annika posts from time to
>time illustrates this exact point and is the best short
>lesson I know. It's up on my desktop and I play
>it every day. This really is the answer to your problem
>and I'll guarantee you can master it within a few days.
>
>Alan
>
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 23:33:07
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 10:41:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>Yep, everyone should watch Bobby Jones-- those old movie clips, now
>available on video, explain why he was among the longest hitters of
>his day-- he usually won the "long drive" contest before most
>tournaments.
I'm not familiar with those times. What types of contests did they
have before most tournaments back then?
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:30:11
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca > wrote in message
news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching for if
> you don't start rotating your
> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the arms
> accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it. In order to
> get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to have begun your
> downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers will begin rotating the
> hips toward the target before the backswing is completed. Google "kinetic
> link" or "X factor" for an explanation of the biomechanics.
>
> Gary
>
Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier by a rope
from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the back of the boat
can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast because of the
powerful motor at the core which is moving only one or two mph maybe...
Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing, the thrust
is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which themselves are only
connections to arms which themselves are incapable of much force but are
connected to shoulders which don't have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to
the hands but THEY are being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE
TORSO to which the shoulders belong.
Whew.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 13:29:31
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:l8hdh.349$uY1.194@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching
>> for if you don't start rotating your
>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>> arms accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>> In order to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to
>> have begun your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers
>> will begin rotating the hips toward the target before the
>> backswing is completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for
>> an explanation of the biomechanics.
>>
>> Gary
>>
> Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier
> by a rope from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the
> back of the boat can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>
> And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast
> because of the powerful motor at the core which is moving only one
> or two mph maybe...
>
> Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing,
> the thrust is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which
> themselves are only connections to arms which themselves are
> incapable of much force but are connected to shoulders which don't
> have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to the hands but THEY are
> being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE TORSO to which
> the shoulders belong.
>
> Whew.
>
>
I like the image of David's sling. The sling is swung around then
when one of the cords is released, stopping the rotation, the stone
is hurled at great velocity toward Goliath.
What is so cool about the way the kinetic link works to create speed
or power in the golf swing is that it is like having several slings
connected together. Once the hip rotation reaches maximum speed it
begins to slow down and transfers speed to the shoulders which speed
up to maybe twice the speed of the hips. Once the shoulders start to
slow down the speed is transferred to the arms which move even
faster. Then just before impact the arms quickly slow down and even
more speed is transferred to the club which then releases at maximum
speed at impact. So, in theory, the faster we rotate our hips the
more ball speed will be generated. Simple. We just have to stop the
shoulder rotation when they are parallel to the target line. The
rest is
automatic.
Gary
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 13:25:50
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:l8hdh.349$uY1.194@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
>> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching
>> for if you don't start rotating your
>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>> arms accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>> In order to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to
>> have begun your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers
>> will begin rotating the hips toward the target before the
>> backswing is completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for
>> an explanation of the biomechanics.
>>
>> Gary
>>
> Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier
> by a rope from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the
> back of the boat can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>
> And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast
> because of the powerful motor at the core which is moving only one
> or two mph maybe...
>
> Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing,
> the thrust is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which
> themselves are only connections to arms which themselves are
> incapable of much force but are connected to shoulders which don't
> have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to the hands but THEY are
> being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE TORSO to which
> the shoulders belong.
>
> Whew.
>
>
I like the image of David's sling. The sling is swung around then
when one of the cords is released, stopping the rotation, the stone
is hurled at great velocity toward Goliath.
What is so cool about the way the kinetic link works to create speed
or power in the golf swing is that it is like having several slings
connected together. Once the hip rotation reaches maximum speed it
begins to slow down and transfers speed to the shoulders which speed
up to maybe twice the speed of the hips. Once the shoulders start to
slow down the speed is transferred to the arms which move even
faster. Then just before impact the arms quickly slow down and even
more speed is transferred to the club which then releases at maximum
speed at impact. So, in theory, the faster we rotate our hips the
more ball speed will be generated. Simple.
The legs start the hips accelerating toward the target. Once the
hips have reached their maximum speed they begin to slow down
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 10:46:30
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:25:50 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca >
wrote:
>
>"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>news:l8hdh.349$uY1.194@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
>> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>>
>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>>
>>> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching
>>> for if you don't start rotating your
>>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>>> arms accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>>> In order to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to
>>> have begun your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers
>>> will begin rotating the hips toward the target before the
>>> backswing is completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for
>>> an explanation of the biomechanics.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>> Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier
>> by a rope from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the
>> back of the boat can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>>
>> And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast
>> because of the powerful motor at the core which is moving only one
>> or two mph maybe...
>>
>> Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing,
>> the thrust is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which
>> themselves are only connections to arms which themselves are
>> incapable of much force but are connected to shoulders which don't
>> have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to the hands but THEY are
>> being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE TORSO to which
>> the shoulders belong.
That is almost the exact opposite of how good golfers achieve clubhead
speed. They exert almost NO leverage control from the handle, they
try NOT to push the club with the lower hand-- and instead sling the
clubhead like you would pop a whip-- Long drive competitors train
with the Whippy clubs-- a shaft so flexible it can be bent into a U
shape. They train to exert NO hand action. Dr. Melvin, inventor of
the Whippy clubs and himself a long drive competitor, says that any
attempt to push the club with the lower hand actually slows it before
impact.
The Golf Labs robot swing machine has a totally free "wrist" so that
it cannot exert any leverage on the club shaft-- which imitates the
ideal in a human golf swing.
Larry
>>
>> Whew.
>>
>>
>
>I like the image of David's sling. The sling is swung around then
>when one of the cords is released, stopping the rotation, the stone
>is hurled at great velocity toward Goliath.
>
>What is so cool about the way the kinetic link works to create speed
>or power in the golf swing is that it is like having several slings
>connected together. Once the hip rotation reaches maximum speed it
>begins to slow down and transfers speed to the shoulders which speed
>up to maybe twice the speed of the hips. Once the shoulders start to
>slow down the speed is transferred to the arms which move even
>faster. Then just before impact the arms quickly slow down and even
>more speed is transferred to the club which then releases at maximum
>speed at impact. So, in theory, the faster we rotate our hips the
>more ball speed will be generated. Simple.
>
>
>
>
>The legs start the hips accelerating toward the target. Once the
>hips have reached their maximum speed they begin to slow down
>
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 19:45:13
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:9n3en2tbbhk19dotugposrbfp722bedd2m@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:25:50 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>>news:l8hdh.349$uY1.194@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching
>>>> for if you don't start rotating your
>>>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>>>> arms accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>>>> In order to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to
>>>> have begun your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers
>>>> will begin rotating the hips toward the target before the
>>>> backswing is completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for
>>>> an explanation of the biomechanics.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>> Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier
>>> by a rope from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the
>>> back of the boat can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>>>
>>> And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast
>>> because of the powerful motor at the core which is moving only one
>>> or two mph maybe...
>>>
>>> Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing,
>>> the thrust is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which
>>> themselves are only connections to arms which themselves are
>>> incapable of much force but are connected to shoulders which don't
>>> have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to the hands but THEY are
>>> being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE TORSO to which
>>> the shoulders belong.
>
> That is almost the exact opposite of how good golfers achieve clubhead
> speed. They exert almost NO leverage control from the handle, they
> try NOT to push the club with the lower hand-- and instead sling the
> clubhead like you would pop a whip-- Long drive competitors train
> with the Whippy clubs-- a shaft so flexible it can be bent into a U
> shape. They train to exert NO hand action. Dr. Melvin, inventor of
> the Whippy clubs and himself a long drive competitor, says that any
> attempt to push the club with the lower hand actually slows it before
> impact.
>
> The Golf Labs robot swing machine has a totally free "wrist" so that
> it cannot exert any leverage on the club shaft-- which imitates the
> ideal in a human golf swing.
>
> Larry
>>>
>>> Whew.
>>>
Larry: thrust is NOT against the side of the shaft. It is to move the
FULCRUM. Leverage is in the body not against the clubhsaft. With an
exception which I won't enter here because it is more subtle and "comes
later" in one's development.
I ENDORSED the Whippy in my book and tapes....we are in complete agreement
about how to do that.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Dec 2006 17:02:56
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:45:13 -0500, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>
>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>news:9n3en2tbbhk19dotugposrbfp722bedd2m@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 13:25:50 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>>>news:l8hdh.349$uY1.194@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>>>
>>>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:v3hdh.46464$Id5.1621984@weber.videotron.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Quite simply you will never achieve the "lag" you are searching
>>>>> for if you don't start rotating your
>>>>> hips more. You can't "hold" this wrist-cocked position, its the
>>>>> arms accelerating around the spinal column axis that creates it.
>>>>> In order to get your arms accelerating quickly enough you need to
>>>>> have begun your downswing with hip rotation. The best golfers
>>>>> will begin rotating the hips toward the target before the
>>>>> backswing is completed. Google "kinetic link" or "X factor" for
>>>>> an explanation of the biomechanics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier
>>>> by a rope from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the
>>>> back of the boat can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>>>>
>>>> And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast
>>>> because of the powerful motor at the core which is moving only one
>>>> or two mph maybe...
>>>>
>>>> Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing,
>>>> the thrust is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which
>>>> themselves are only connections to arms which themselves are
>>>> incapable of much force but are connected to shoulders which don't
>>>> have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to the hands but THEY are
>>>> being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE TORSO to which
>>>> the shoulders belong.
>>
>> That is almost the exact opposite of how good golfers achieve clubhead
>> speed. They exert almost NO leverage control from the handle, they
>> try NOT to push the club with the lower hand-- and instead sling the
>> clubhead like you would pop a whip-- Long drive competitors train
>> with the Whippy clubs-- a shaft so flexible it can be bent into a U
>> shape. They train to exert NO hand action. Dr. Melvin, inventor of
>> the Whippy clubs and himself a long drive competitor, says that any
>> attempt to push the club with the lower hand actually slows it before
>> impact.
>>
>> The Golf Labs robot swing machine has a totally free "wrist" so that
>> it cannot exert any leverage on the club shaft-- which imitates the
>> ideal in a human golf swing.
>>
>> Larry
>>>>
>>>> Whew.
>>>>
>Larry: thrust is NOT against the side of the shaft. It is to move the
>FULCRUM. Leverage is in the body not against the clubhsaft. With an
>exception which I won't enter here because it is more subtle and "comes
>later" in one's development.
>
>I ENDORSED the Whippy in my book and tapes....we are in complete agreement
>about how to do that.
Yeah, the Whippy is a ruthless teacher-- very very difficult if not
impossible for those who are handsy-- who try to flip the clubhead
with their hands and basically use a golf club like a garden hoe. Dr.
Melvin accepts the product back and refunds their money when they give
up. It is almost comical (and dangerous) to watch a handsy player try
to hit balls with a Whippy. They either whiff it or hit them 90
degrees sideways.
It is too easy for good golfers. I have handed one (I have a
right-handed 5i) to several teaching pros, and they all hit them
perfectly with it after fewer than 5 trial swings. They all quickly
learn to "wait for it" and hit balls straight and their normal 5i
distance.
Whippy training clubs are not a measure of a great swing, but it
certainly separates those who are too handsy from accomplished golfers
who swing the club centrifugally like Bobby Jones.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 05 Dec 2006 11:09:26
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:30:11 -0500, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>Yes, Gary. Lag is a result, same as the pulling of a water skier by a rope
>from a pair of 300 hp Mercury engines. The kid in the back of the boat
>can't do what the Mercs do, obviously.
>
>And the outer rim of a merrygoround is rotating rather fast because of the
>powerful motor at the core which is moving only one or two mph maybe...
>
>Lag is not an image I like. I like thrust, and in a golf swing, the thrust
>is applied to the fulcrum of the club by hands which themselves are only
>connections to arms which themselves are incapable of much force but are
>connected to shoulders which don't have any way to apply THEIR OWN power to
>the hands but THEY are being moved at the core by the LEGS WHICH TURN THE
>TORSO to which the shoulders belong.
But your image is good - when you turn and whip the skier around, he
can go much faster than the boat - no matter how much thrust your
engines have.
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 16:52:23
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:mc1bh.4314$ql2.2502@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Against my better judgment :-), here are pictures of what we are dealing
> with (22* hybrid)
>
> http://members.tripod.com/DaveLeeMn/lag.jpg
>
> I do notice a slight lack of rotation between the last two frames and I
> could possibly be 'behind the ball' a bit better. But I suspect there is
> more to it than this.
>
> dave
You are muscling the club with your arms. You are not using your pivot to
move the shoulders to move the arms. So while you might have "lag" with
your arms vs. clubhead, you have no power or SOURCE for the arms themselves.
Your tail is trying to wag itselt.
Like a baseball pitcher throwing without his shoulders moving: just using
arms and wrists. No REAL thrust there at all.
My post mentioned how it starts in the knees, like a bungee cord running
from knees up the left side to the shoulders, out the arms, clubshaft,
finally the head. Your cord runs from the left shoulder only. There is
simply insufficient movement of body under that point. The shoulders
themselves need to be driven.
|
| |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 10:53:50
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
KnighT wrote:
> Always Sustain the Lag....all the way to finish. You might be aware
> that there are 3 different methods of loading the lag during your
> swing. This is a very important component of the swing(it is 1 of the
> 24 components).
>
My personal opinion is that if you don't get rid of the lag by impact,
then there is a problem.
> Drag loading - for swinging, longitudinal acceleration of the club.
> The lag is loaded at start down.
> Drive loading - for hitting, radial acceleration of the club. The lag
> is loaded during the backswing due to the body resisting the backswing
> motion.
> Float loading - swinging or hitting. Load the lag as early as
> possible, as late as possible, or somewhere inbetween.
>
I think lag is independent of these types of swings, even though this
is very good description of swings that aren't usually discussed. One
can hit the ball very well without any lag at all.
> An important note is the sensation of lag pressure on the right index
> finger. This will rotate a quarter turn to the top of the shaft at the
> top for swinging due to the position of the right elbow under the
> shaft. Then it should rotate back to the back of the club for release
> and impact. For Hitting the lag pressure point always stays smack
> behind the back of the shaft.
>
Good stuff, but lag and pressure point is different. Your right index
finger is a resistance inducer, and it can be used effectively, but not
necessary for every type of swing.
> All this can be substituted for 1 simple feeling because maintaining
> this lag pressure with a golf club gives the EXACT SAME FEELING AS
> DRAGING A WET MOP THROUGH IMPACT. Try it. It really is the same exact
> feeling. Just get a club and drop it on your target line about 6-12
> inches behind your right foot. Make sure you have some nice grass or
> thick/fuzzy carpet so the leading edge of the club will catch onto it.
> Get into your posture with your normal grip, and with the club resting
> on the ground use your left side to pull, or your right side to push.
> Both will cause the clubhead to drag on the ground. Drag it all the
> way through to finish. When the clubhead gets to about your left
> shoulder it will no longer be on the ground. It will rise up, even
> though you are still going DOWN at your straight plane line. Flipping
> with the hands/wrists does not jive with this motion/feeling. This is
> the biggest shortcut to learning the correct feeling of impact. If you
> feel a straight line from the clubhead up to your left shoulder
> throughout this dragging, you are on the right track. If your hands
> feel very large and fixed to the club you are on the right track.
>
Dragging a wet mop is a good way to look at an effective swing.
Flipping wrists is just a style and you are correct in saying that if
you are doing 'the mop' the flipping will be non-exist, but it doesn't
mean that rolling wrists can't be used before 'the mop'.
> Also, lag pressure should be constant. Once you load the lag, then you
> sustain it. There is no more lag to load during any other parts of the
> swing. Trying to create more lag on the downswing might cause
> over-acceleration.
>
I think if you subsitute the word resistance for lag, there will be
better understanding and results.
> Sustain the lag = Sustain the line of compression = the secret of golf
> (don't tell anybody....it's a secret)
>
The secret is in the thumbs!
CJ
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > "Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:ZOqah.12143$oP6.4155@trnddc03...
> > > Dave Lee wrote:
> > > > This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
> > > > posted on 10/5/06.
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
> > of
> > > > improving lag?
> > >
> > > It seems to me that the most important thing to getting proper lag is
> > > the transition and beginning of the downswing. If you can get started
> > > down correctly, without casting the club, then the rest will somewhat
> > > take care of itself. I'm not convinced (for myself at least) how much
> > > you can really "hold" the lag once the downswing really gets going.
> >
> > My experience is different (who wudda' thunk it). My lag (even when I am not
> > working on it) increases from it's value at the top until the point at which
> > my hands are just below my shoulders. My problems start at that point. And
> > as you observed, further control from there is difficult at best.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > >snip
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 01:02:56
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On 28 Nov 2006 10:53:50 -0800, curtjester1@hotmail.com wrote:
>My personal opinion is that if you don't get rid of the lag by impact,
>then there is a problem.
If you get rid of lag before impact you have clubhead throwaway. You
dump lag in the upstroke when the clubhead passes your hands.
>I think lag is independent of these types of swings, even though this
>is very good description of swings that aren't usually discussed. One
>can hit the ball very well without any lag at all.
Sure you can, you can hit the ball well with any swing if you practice
it enough. Moe Norman was proof of that. But why try to defy
physics when you can make it easier on yourself and comply with it?
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 05:06:31
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On Nov 27, 6:56 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net > wrote:
> On 27 Nov 2006 16:01:40 -0800, "Birdie Bill"
>
> <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Dave, I don't think that the hip turn is the automatic magic solution
> >to the lag problem, but it puts you into a much better position at
> >impact. In other words, it increases your odds of success, but
> >you can still screw it up. I think there is no substitute for
> >"educated
> >hands", but a good hip turn can make it much easier to avoid flipping.
>
>I agree - controlling hip turn doesn't help the lag - but it does help
> make my shots square. And oddly enough, it helps me not hit fat. Lag
> isn't my problem, hitting square is.
Howard, I don't agree with what you are agreeing to.
In my opinion/experience, a good hip turn DOES help lag
- but it is still possible to screw up if you do something
else wrong. It is necessary to do the hip turn right,
and not "spin out", for example.
I agree with the part about hitting the ball straighter, though,
and I'm seeing a noticeable increase in distance.
|
| |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 16:01:40
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On Nov 27, 3:48 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> Bill, I probably will go back to working on hip turn some more. I have
> abandoned efforts in this area twice because it just wasn't effective. But I
> may well not have put enough effort/time into it.
Dave, I don't think that the hip turn is the automatic magic solution
to the lag problem, but it puts you into a much better position at
impact. In other words, it increases your odds of success, but
you can still screw it up. I think there is no substitute for
"educated
hands", but a good hip turn can make it much easier to avoid flipping.
|
| | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 00:56:52
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On 27 Nov 2006 16:01:40 -0800, "Birdie Bill"
<bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Dave, I don't think that the hip turn is the automatic magic solution
>to the lag problem, but it puts you into a much better position at
>impact. In other words, it increases your odds of success, but
>you can still screw it up. I think there is no substitute for
>"educated
>hands", but a good hip turn can make it much easier to avoid flipping.
I agree - controlling hip turn doesn't help the lag - but it does help
make my shots square. And oddly enough, it helps me not hit fat. Lag
isn't my problem, hitting square is.
|
| |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 09:44:26
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Always Sustain the Lag....all the way to finish. You might be aware
that there are 3 different methods of loading the lag during your
swing. This is a very important component of the swing(it is 1 of the
24 components).
Drag loading - for swinging, longitudinal acceleration of the club.
The lag is loaded at start down.
Drive loading - for hitting, radial acceleration of the club. The lag
is loaded during the backswing due to the body resisting the backswing
motion.
Float loading - swinging or hitting. Load the lag as early as
possible, as late as possible, or somewhere inbetween.
An important note is the sensation of lag pressure on the right index
finger. This will rotate a quarter turn to the top of the shaft at the
top for swinging due to the position of the right elbow under the
shaft. Then it should rotate back to the back of the club for release
and impact. For Hitting the lag pressure point always stays smack
behind the back of the shaft.
All this can be substituted for 1 simple feeling because maintaining
this lag pressure with a golf club gives the EXACT SAME FEELING AS
DRAGING A WET MOP THROUGH IMPACT. Try it. It really is the same exact
feeling. Just get a club and drop it on your target line about 6-12
inches behind your right foot. Make sure you have some nice grass or
thick/fuzzy carpet so the leading edge of the club will catch onto it.
Get into your posture with your normal grip, and with the club resting
on the ground use your left side to pull, or your right side to push.
Both will cause the clubhead to drag on the ground. Drag it all the
way through to finish. When the clubhead gets to about your left
shoulder it will no longer be on the ground. It will rise up, even
though you are still going DOWN at your straight plane line. Flipping
with the hands/wrists does not jive with this motion/feeling. This is
the biggest shortcut to learning the correct feeling of impact. If you
feel a straight line from the clubhead up to your left shoulder
throughout this dragging, you are on the right track. If your hands
feel very large and fixed to the club you are on the right track.
Also, lag pressure should be constant. Once you load the lag, then you
sustain it. There is no more lag to load during any other parts of the
swing. Trying to create more lag on the downswing might cause
over-acceleration.
Sustain the lag = Sustain the line of compression = the secret of golf
(don't tell anybody....it's a secret)
Dave Lee wrote:
> "Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ZOqah.12143$oP6.4155@trnddc03...
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> > > This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
> > > posted on 10/5/06.
> > >
> > > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
> of
> > > improving lag?
> >
> > It seems to me that the most important thing to getting proper lag is
> > the transition and beginning of the downswing. If you can get started
> > down correctly, without casting the club, then the rest will somewhat
> > take care of itself. I'm not convinced (for myself at least) how much
> > you can really "hold" the lag once the downswing really gets going.
>
> My experience is different (who wudda' thunk it). My lag (even when I am not
> working on it) increases from it's value at the top until the point at which
> my hands are just below my shoulders. My problems start at that point. And
> as you observed, further control from there is difficult at best.
>
> dave
>
> >snip
|
| | |
Date: 21 Dec 2006 03:54:12
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
Thank you for your concern but there is nothing much wrong with my
swing, no casting, no blocking, sorry to disappoint you. If I have a
problem it is simply that I have failed to explain my point in terms
that you are willing to accept, but I suspect this is partly your
fault. And as to the right arm bit - in my case straightening the
right arm prematurely would lead to casting and OTT so I'll just
carry on keeping my right arm at a perfect right angle until my hands
reach about sternum level just like Woods, Hogan, Nicklaus, Nelson,
Snead, Player, Jones, Wright, Norman, Faldo etc. It's a shame that
none of us that do this never figured out how to do it properly, but I
guess it means we're just a bunch of underachieving losers so clearly
people like us don't belong in this select company. I now humbly take
your leave. Merry Xmas to you and yours.
B
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Dec 2006 23:13:21
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 21 Dec 2006 03:54:12 -0800, babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
>It's a shame that
>none of us that do this never figured out how to do it properly, but I
>guess it means we're just a bunch of underachieving losers so clearly
>people like us don't belong in this select company.
The problem is not that you'll are a bunch of losers, the problem is
that you swing by imitation and "looks like" theory. If you want to
play golf like that it's your right, all the power to you. However if
swinging by imitation is the answer than why can't the majority of
golfers break 100 despite them trying to imitate Tiger Woods or
they're favorite golfer?
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 04:13:08
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
David Laville wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:41:30 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >Did you do some research on kinetic link? It is amazing what has
> >been learned recently using modern technology. I wonder how modern
> >biomechanics relates to TGM?
>
> Dr. Ralph Mann a Ph.D in biomechanics filmed the swings of over 100+
> touring pros and using computer technology he kept what they all did
> in common and tossed out what they did differently. When he finished
> he had a computer model of what all the pros had in common. Using his
> background and education in biomechanics he explained what they did
> and why they did it.
>
> His computer model was nothing more than the swingers stroke pattern
> from TGM.
>
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
> TB-8982
Hmmm, that would imply that a hitters stroke pattern is some set of
biomechanics that are "in addition to" the biomechanics of a swinger.
Is that right? Doesn't sound right, somehow.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 02:45:32
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 12 Dec 2006 04:13:08 -0800, "Dave Lee"
<DaveLeeNC-RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>Hmmm, that would imply that a hitters stroke pattern is some set of
>biomechanics that are "in addition to" the biomechanics of a swinger.
>Is that right? Doesn't sound right, somehow.
I don't think the right term is "in addition to". "An alternative"
would probably be better.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 29 Nov 2006 01:02:57
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On 27 Nov 2006 09:44:26 -0800, "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>An important note is the sensation of lag pressure on the right index
>finger. This will rotate a quarter turn to the top of the shaft at the
>top for swinging due to the position of the right elbow under the
>shaft. Then it should rotate back to the back of the club for release
>and impact. For Hitting the lag pressure point always stays smack
>behind the back of the shaft.
Kind of. Hitters take the club back about 3/4 so gravity acting on
the shaft places the pressure point in a different position than a
club taken back to parallel. Homer was going to make some changes and
make references to low shafts (hitting) and high shafts (swinging).
However I see he didn't make those changes in the 7th edition.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 28 Nov 2006 04:01:45
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
KnighT wrote:
> All this can be substituted for 1 simple feeling because maintaining
> this lag pressure with a golf club gives the EXACT SAME FEELING AS
> DRAGING A WET MOP THROUGH IMPACT. Try it. It really is the same exact
> feeling.
This sounds a lot like what I mentioned before, and is one of my main
swing thoughts these days ... an awareness of the weight of the clubhead
and the feeling of dragging the clubhead down from the top and
maintaining that "drag" feel ... as if you were pulling a weight on a
string through some water, you have to keep pulling on it or it will sink.
Rob
|
| | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 21:19:55
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1164649466.711531.156000@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Always Sustain the Lag....all the way to finish. You might be aware
> that there are 3 different methods of loading the lag during your
> swing. This is a very important component of the swing(it is 1 of the
> 24 components).
>
> Drag loading - for swinging, longitudinal acceleration of the club.
> The lag is loaded at start down.
> Drive loading - for hitting, radial acceleration of the club. The lag
> is loaded during the backswing due to the body resisting the backswing
> motion.
> Float loading - swinging or hitting. Load the lag as early as
> possible, as late as possible, or somewhere inbetween.
>
> An important note is the sensation of lag pressure on the right index
> finger. This will rotate a quarter turn to the top of the shaft at the
> top for swinging due to the position of the right elbow under the
> shaft. Then it should rotate back to the back of the club for release
> and impact. For Hitting the lag pressure point always stays smack
> behind the back of the shaft.
>
> All this can be substituted for 1 simple feeling because maintaining
> this lag pressure with a golf club gives the EXACT SAME FEELING AS
> DRAGING A WET MOP THROUGH IMPACT. Try it. It really is the same exact
> feeling. Just get a club and drop it on your target line about 6-12
> inches behind your right foot. Make sure you have some nice grass or
> thick/fuzzy carpet so the leading edge of the club will catch onto it.
> Get into your posture with your normal grip, and with the club resting
> on the ground use your left side to pull, or your right side to push.
> Both will cause the clubhead to drag on the ground. Drag it all the
> way through to finish. When the clubhead gets to about your left
> shoulder it will no longer be on the ground. It will rise up, even
> though you are still going DOWN at your straight plane line. Flipping
> with the hands/wrists does not jive with this motion/feeling. This is
> the biggest shortcut to learning the correct feeling of impact. If you
> feel a straight line from the clubhead up to your left shoulder
> throughout this dragging, you are on the right track. If your hands
> feel very large and fixed to the club you are on the right track.
>
> Also, lag pressure should be constant. Once you load the lag, then you
> sustain it. There is no more lag to load during any other parts of the
> swing. Trying to create more lag on the downswing might cause
> over-acceleration.
>
> Sustain the lag = Sustain the line of compression = the secret of golf
> (don't tell anybody....it's a secret)
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
snip
I've read of lag pressure, but am not sure that I have ever felt it. I'm
curious - do you feel this when you take a "serious practice swing" as well
as a real swing at a ball? I ask because the lag in my "serious practice
swings" is quite good, but the pressure that I feel is not any different.
Thanks.
dave
|
| |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 04:52:33
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
On Nov 26, 1:27 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question of
> improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my normal
> practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the case
> for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach (directly) of
> just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
This has been the main focus of my current set of lessons.
I'm close to cracking this nut. I do have video of my swing
at impact with my hands ahead of the the ball at impact
with the right wrist still "set" (hinged back towards the
forearm). These swings occur towards the end of my
practice sessions, though, and not what I get right from the
start. Still, this is the best results I've ever achieved, so
I'm pretty happy with the lessons.
My pro has given me several drills, some of which I've posted
here in other threads. Google is your friend for those. Here
are a few other thoughts, To make it simple, I'm just talking
irons, in particular, midirons. The differences with other clubs
are due to ball position and clublength, etc., but I won't
go into that.
All pros arrive at impact with their hands ahead ot the ball and
trailing wrist (right for right-handers) hinged backward (set).
The release occurs through impact, not before impact.
This is not optional. If your trailing wrist has lost it's set at the
start of impact and is straight, instead of hinged back, then you
have lost lag and flipped, or in the process of flipping.
Conversely, if you arrive at impact with your wrist set, it is proof
that you haven't lost lag and flipped.
My pro says that this can happen "automatically", but there is
no problem with conciously being aware of keeping this wrist set.
Just also be aware that the forearms are rolling, too, through
impact, unless you want to block the ball.
One training aid that I've found very helpful is the "Chip and
Pitch" shaft extension. Attach to the end of your club, and start
off with chips and pitches and work up from there. If the
extension touches your side, you know you have flipped. You
can even make full iron swings with it.
Another big piece of the puzzle is hip turn. I've had several
pros tell me a major cause of flipping is not clearing the hips.
The tour average is hips 40 degrees open at impact. You
need to drive your swing with your hips. If you can't see both
butt cheeks at impact, you need to work on it.
I had a big problem with this due to lifting my head on the
backswing. After I learned how to stay balanced by keeping
my head down, it was much easier to clear the hips.
I think in the past I might have been afraid of staying down
for fear of hitting fat. However, if you maintain lag, you can
stay a lot lower. In fact, you need to stay lower that you do
if you flip.
Of course, it also helps if you are swinging "on plane", and
have good posture, and other fundamentals, otherwise what
I am saying is probably irrelevant.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 22:07:10
From: Steve
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
> Another big piece of the puzzle is hip turn. I've had several
> pros tell me a major cause of flipping is not clearing the hips.
> The tour average is hips 40 degrees open at impact. You
> need to drive your swing with your hips. If you can't see both
> butt cheeks at impact, you need to work on it.
>
> I had a big problem with this due to lifting my head on the
> backswing. After I learned how to stay balanced by keeping
> my head down, it was much easier to clear the hips.
>
There was a Golf Channel Academy show a week or so ago where they had some
celebrity actor on I had never heard of and showed his swing in slow motion
and it look fairly decent and then showed Tiger's and the HUGE difference
was the amount of hip turn Tiger had at impact. Shoulders fairly square to
the target, hips pointing way left.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 21:48:18
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1164631953.354447.309730@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Nov 26, 1:27 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
of
> > improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my
normal
> > practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the
case
> > for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach
(directly) of
> > just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
>
> This has been the main focus of my current set of lessons.
> I'm close to cracking this nut. I do have video of my swing
> at impact with my hands ahead of the the ball at impact
> with the right wrist still "set" (hinged back towards the
> forearm). These swings occur towards the end of my
> practice sessions, though, and not what I get right from the
> start. Still, this is the best results I've ever achieved, so
> I'm pretty happy with the lessons.
>
> My pro has given me several drills, some of which I've posted
> here in other threads. Google is your friend for those. Here
> are a few other thoughts, To make it simple, I'm just talking
> irons, in particular, midirons. The differences with other clubs
> are due to ball position and clublength, etc., but I won't
> go into that.
>
> All pros arrive at impact with their hands ahead ot the ball and
> trailing wrist (right for right-handers) hinged backward (set).
> The release occurs through impact, not before impact.
> This is not optional. If your trailing wrist has lost it's set at the
> start of impact and is straight, instead of hinged back, then you
> have lost lag and flipped, or in the process of flipping.
> Conversely, if you arrive at impact with your wrist set, it is proof
> that you haven't lost lag and flipped.
>
> My pro says that this can happen "automatically", but there is
> no problem with conciously being aware of keeping this wrist set.
> Just also be aware that the forearms are rolling, too, through
> impact, unless you want to block the ball.
>
> One training aid that I've found very helpful is the "Chip and
> Pitch" shaft extension. Attach to the end of your club, and start
> off with chips and pitches and work up from there. If the
> extension touches your side, you know you have flipped. You
> can even make full iron swings with it.
>
> Another big piece of the puzzle is hip turn. I've had several
> pros tell me a major cause of flipping is not clearing the hips.
> The tour average is hips 40 degrees open at impact. You
> need to drive your swing with your hips. If you can't see both
> butt cheeks at impact, you need to work on it.
>
> I had a big problem with this due to lifting my head on the
> backswing. After I learned how to stay balanced by keeping
> my head down, it was much easier to clear the hips.
>
> I think in the past I might have been afraid of staying down
> for fear of hitting fat. However, if you maintain lag, you can
> stay a lot lower. In fact, you need to stay lower that you do
> if you flip.
>
> Of course, it also helps if you are swinging "on plane", and
> have good posture, and other fundamentals, otherwise what
> I am saying is probably irrelevant.
>
Bill, I probably will go back to working on hip turn some more. I have
abandoned efforts in this area twice because it just wasn't effective. But I
may well not have put enough effort/time into it.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 20:18:12
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:C2Jah.4093$tM1.412@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164631953.354447.309730@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> On Nov 26, 1:27 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>> > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
> of
>> > improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my
> normal
>> > practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the
> case
>> > for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach
> (directly) of
>> > just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
>>
>> This has been the main focus of my current set of lessons.
>> I'm close to cracking this nut. I do have video of my swing
>> at impact with my hands ahead of the the ball at impact
>> with the right wrist still "set" (hinged back towards the
>> forearm). These swings occur towards the end of my
>> practice sessions, though, and not what I get right from the
>> start. Still, this is the best results I've ever achieved, so
>> I'm pretty happy with the lessons.
>>
>> My pro has given me several drills, some of which I've posted
>> here in other threads. Google is your friend for those. Here
>> are a few other thoughts, To make it simple, I'm just talking
>> irons, in particular, midirons. The differences with other clubs
>> are due to ball position and clublength, etc., but I won't
>> go into that.
>>
>> All pros arrive at impact with their hands ahead ot the ball and
>> trailing wrist (right for right-handers) hinged backward (set).
>> The release occurs through impact, not before impact.
>> This is not optional. If your trailing wrist has lost it's set at the
>> start of impact and is straight, instead of hinged back, then you
>> have lost lag and flipped, or in the process of flipping.
>> Conversely, if you arrive at impact with your wrist set, it is proof
>> that you haven't lost lag and flipped.
>>
>> My pro says that this can happen "automatically", but there is
>> no problem with conciously being aware of keeping this wrist set.
>> Just also be aware that the forearms are rolling, too, through
>> impact, unless you want to block the ball.
>>
>> One training aid that I've found very helpful is the "Chip and
>> Pitch" shaft extension. Attach to the end of your club, and start
>> off with chips and pitches and work up from there. If the
>> extension touches your side, you know you have flipped. You
>> can even make full iron swings with it.
>>
>> Another big piece of the puzzle is hip turn. I've had several
>> pros tell me a major cause of flipping is not clearing the hips.
>> The tour average is hips 40 degrees open at impact. You
>> need to drive your swing with your hips. If you can't see both
>> butt cheeks at impact, you need to work on it.
>>
>> I had a big problem with this due to lifting my head on the
>> backswing. After I learned how to stay balanced by keeping
>> my head down, it was much easier to clear the hips.
>>
>> I think in the past I might have been afraid of staying down
>> for fear of hitting fat. However, if you maintain lag, you can
>> stay a lot lower. In fact, you need to stay lower that you do
>> if you flip.
>>
>> Of course, it also helps if you are swinging "on plane", and
>> have good posture, and other fundamentals, otherwise what
>> I am saying is probably irrelevant.
>>
>
> Bill, I probably will go back to working on hip turn some more. I have
> abandoned efforts in this area twice because it just wasn't effective. But
> I
> may well not have put enough effort/time into it.
>
> dave
>
>
Lag needs to exist in the entire power train, knees through hips through
torso through shoulders through hands to clubhead. Unless the hips turn is
EXERTED TO DRIVE THE ARMS AND PULL THE CLUB/PUSH THE CLUB HANDLE END, then
hip turn would become a disconnected irrelevant item. The hips turn IN
ORDER TO DRIVE that end of the whole swinging mechanism.
I counsel pupils to "hit the ball with the inside of your right leg / with
your groin!" Because THAT location mid body, in the right hip driving down
and out, is part of the drive train.
So it is not simply a "convenience" to clear the hips: they are an essential
in PRODUCING energy that works its way out to the clubhead.
|
| |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 01:02:49
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
> posted on 10/5/06.
>
> Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question of
> improving lag?
It seems to me that the most important thing to getting proper lag is
the transition and beginning of the downswing. If you can get started
down correctly, without casting the club, then the rest will somewhat
take care of itself. I'm not convinced (for myself at least) how much
you can really "hold" the lag once the downswing really gets going.
I've been working a lot on this recently myself ... foot work, weight
shift, proper start down with my arms. One thing that seems to help me
is to be aware of and have a real feel for the weight of the clubhead
... almost weightless at the top, and then the feel is one of "dragging"
the clubhead down ... maintaining that "pull" and keep the hands moving
ahead of the club. A little hard to put into words, but it's a swing
thought that's really been working well for me recently, both on the
range and during a round.
BTW, that "pump drill" is one I've read about several times and
occasionally do myself. Sounds like a good idea and worth doing for a while.
Rob
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2006 02:22:03
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
David Laville wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2006 05:43:22 -0800, babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
>
> >So for me, wristcock is essentially an
> >up-and-down movement, and 'lag' is priily a horizontal tendency
> >of the club to trail behind the hands with respect to the rotation of
> >the body.
>
> Lag causes the club to trail behind the hands on-plane. A horizontal
> tendency would cause the club to swing off plane. All motions of the
> club take place on-plane and every thing we do must be to comply with
> that factor.
When I refer to the horizontal tendency of the club to lag behind the
hands, I am referring specifically to the component of the lag that is
related to the pivot or body rotation. This is because I find it hard
to visualize movement on an angled plane and prefer to think of
movement on an angled plane as the simultaneous movement of the club up
and down on a vertical plane whilst it is rotating about a vertical
axis. This is a perfectly valid approach. For example, when we hit a
fade or a draw, the ball does not actually gain sidespin, instead is
simply spins about a tilted rather than horizontal axis of rotation.
However this is hard to visualize so everybody rationalizes the spin on
a golf ball in terms of two simultaneous components -backspin and
side spin. So I think of the entire golf-swing in terms of this
'up-and-down whilst rotating around' model (which I thought was
essentially the Golfing Machine model, but perhaps I am wrong). So,
back to the issue of lag. If you have on-plane lag you can also break
that down into its two components - the vertical component is mostly
related to the wrist cock and the downward movement of the arms. As far
as I am concerned I can ignore this because I know my arms must descend
and my wrists must uncock in order to hit the ball. I can detect a
release of this 'vertical' lag pressure at impact. But if I
concentrate on the 'horizontal' lag component, I know I must
sustain that all the way to impact, because as you correctly pointed
out if this changed at all it would result in horizontal motion and
this is off-plane. I find it helpful to do this, because prior to
thinking in this way I would try to sustain the lag on-plane, and as a
result I fought a pull-hook for years because I would compensate for
this slight loss of 'vertical' lag pressure that I could detect by
turning my hands over a bit at the bottom of the swing. Now I forget
about that and just focus on the horizontal component and the pulls and
hooks are gone.
>
> >The other thing that should notice if you try this drill is that
> >because the clubhead is 'lagging' behind the hands, obviously you
> >have to do something to compensate for this in order to deliver the
> >clubhead to impact.
>
> Um, no we don't. Correctly done there are no compensations in the golf
> swing.
>
I am not referring to a compensation in the golfswing I am referring to
a difference in the position of the body at impact compared to address
to compensate for the fact that there is no lag at address but there is
lag at impact. I only raised the point in response to what I feel is an
erroneous notion that somehow 'clearing' the hips gives you lag. To
have lag you must start with it from the very top and sustain it all
the way to impact and if you do this your hips will be somewhat open,
and they must be unless your arm swing and body rotation are
disconnected. OK?
> >There are only three things that can be done. (1)
> >You can straighten up the right wrist and flip the clubhead forward-
> >this is what a lot of people do and it's the wrong thing to do, as
> >you are aware. (2) You can swing your arms forward - this is even
> >worse - it lays back the clubface, causes disconnection and leads to
> >all manner of awful shots.
>
> The arms swing forward in all golf swings, this is the purpose of
> "triggering". First there is shoulder acceleration. This is followed
> by triggering which leads to hand acceleration. Hand acceleration is
> when the hands move away from the right shoulder (lengthening the 3
> side of the triangle) as they over-take the left shoulder. Connection
> ruins hand acceleration because it never allows the left arm to swing
> free of the chest and the hands never over-take the left shoulder. It
> would be like trying to get maximum clubhead speed never allowing the
> clubhead to over-take your hands. The golf swing is an over-taking
> process from the inside out, not a stifling process.
>
As to 'connection' - I don't like the term much either because
of the unhelpful connotations you describe. But in fairness to Mr
Ballard, this business of trying to staple the arms to the chest has
nothing to do with him; it's not what he meant by connection at all.
Connection is simply the whole body - hips shoulders arms wrists and
all working together to control the club during the swing. Part of this
chain of interconnected levers is that the arms control the wrists
during the swing and apparently we agree on that. But I see the entire
body from the balls of my feet up to the hands as one interconnected
series of levers working together during the swing and that's what I
think connection is. Of course the arms must swing freely in the swing
and if you view the movement of the arms from a front elevation the
left arm swings as the spoke of a wheel. But in relation to the body
the arms swing the club and hands up over the right shoulder in the
backswing, then down in front of the groin at impact, then up and over
the left shoulder in the follow through. So in relation to the body
there is very little lateral motion (only about a shoulders' width)
and it is predominantly an up-and-down movement. For the swing to be
'connected' the arms swing must be timed to coincide with the
rotation of the body so that both are synchronized. If you lose this
synchronization you have disconnection. And yes the left arm must swing
forward and up off the chest in the follow through, but this happens
after impact or you have disconnection.
> >Or (3) be patient, and let your body keep
> >turning until the clubhead is back to the ball. That is the only
> >possible solution, and the result is that your body must be open at
> >impact.
>
> No, there is the 4th and correct solution; From the top your right
> arm straightens. The bending and straightening of the right arm cocks
> and uncocks the left wrist. This is why extensor action is so
> important, not only does it give structure to the triangle assembly it
> will evenly and smoothly uncock your left wrist in the down swing so
> there are no needs for compensations for or at impact.
>
I know I don't do this, but I think I am in good company because as
far as I can tell neither does Woods or Hogan or just about anybody I
care about. IMO the right arm stays bent in a 'L' shape until the
arms have dropped to the point where the hands are about level with the
sternum, and the right elbow is 'connected' to the chest again.
>From there you just have to straighten your right arm and the wrists
uncock into impact. I don't understand how it can work any other way,
but I respect your opinion on this as much as everything else.
Jeez - I practically wrote a book, sorry about the lengthy post - I
guess I am not very good at explaining things succinctly.
Rgds
Babbs
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 02:43:37
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued - PICTURES!)
|
On 10 Dec 2006 02:22:03 -0800, babblebrook1@eircom.net wrote:
>
>When I refer to the horizontal tendency of the club to lag behind the
>hands, I am referring specifically to the component of the lag that is
>related to the pivot or body rotation. This is because I find it hard
>to visualize movement on an angled plane and prefer to think of
>movement on an angled plane as the simultaneous movement of the club up
>and down on a vertical plane whilst it is rotating about a vertical
>axis. This is a perfectly valid approach. For example, when we hit a
>fade or a draw, the ball does not actually gain sidespin, instead is
>simply spins about a tilted rather than horizontal axis of rotation.
>However this is hard to visualize so everybody rationalizes the spin on
>a golf ball in terms of two simultaneous components -backspin and
>side spin. So I think of the entire golf-swing in terms of this
>'up-and-down whilst rotating around' model (which I thought was
>essentially the Golfing Machine model, but perhaps I am wrong).
Perhaps you are. The Golfing Machine model is all motions on an
inclined plane. Homer was going to call it "Plane Golf" but decided
on "The Golfing Machine".
>So back to the issue of lag. If you have on-plane lag you can also break
>that down into its two components - the vertical component is mostly
>related to the wrist cock and the downward movement of the arms. As far
>as I am concerned I can ignore this because I know my arms must descend
>and my wrists must uncock in order to hit the ball. I can detect a
>release of this 'vertical' lag pressure at impact.
If you detect a release of the pressure at impact you have clubhead
throwaway. We want to sustain the pressure all the way through impact
to the follow-through.
>But if I
>concentrate on the 'horizontal' lag component,
There is no horizontal lag component. What you're sensing as a
horizontal lag component is a clubface block out. If you want to keep
concentrating on something that doesn't exist that's okay.
>I know I must
>sustain that all the way to impact, because as you correctly pointed
>out if this changed at all it would result in horizontal motion and
>this is off-plane. I find it helpful to do this, because prior to
>thinking in this way I would try to sustain the lag on-plane, and as a
>result I fought a pull-hook for years because I would compensate for
>this slight loss of 'vertical' lag pressure that I could detect by
>turning my hands over a bit at the bottom of the swing. Now I forget
>about that and just focus on the horizontal component and the pulls and
>hooks are gone.
If you were pulling that was a shaft problem, it was swinging
outside-in. It's caused by either a faulty pivot motion and/or
off-plane right forearm. Lag is simply keeping the clubhead in a
state of acceleration by applying a constant thrust to it.
>As to 'connection' - I don't like the term much either because
>of the unhelpful connotations you describe. But in fairness to Mr
>Ballard, this business of trying to staple the arms to the chest has
>nothing to do with him; it's not what he meant by connection at all.
Yes it was. He taught to hit the ball keeping a towel or headcover
under your left armpit at all times.
>> No, there is the 4th and correct solution; From the top your right
>> arm straightens. The bending and straightening of the right arm cocks
>> and uncocks the left wrist. This is why extensor action is so
>> important, not only does it give structure to the triangle assembly it
>> will evenly and smoothly uncock your left wrist in the down swing so
>> there are no needs for compensations for or at impact.
>>
>
>I know I don't do this, but I think I am in good company because as
>far as I can tell neither does Woods or Hogan or just about anybody I
>care about. IMO the right arm stays bent in a 'L' shape until the
>arms have dropped to the point where the hands are about level with the
>sternum,
This is why you pulled the ball and why you have to compensate with
"horizontal lag" (block out) to avoid it. At the top of your swing
your right forearm is not in a position to point at the plane line in
the downswing. If you try to maintain that "L" shape in your right
arm you'll deliver the right forearm pointing outside the plane line.
The right arm must straighten from the top to allow the right forearm
to get in a position where it can trace the plane line through release
and impact. Also, centrifugal force wants to throw out everything,
this includes the hands and the clubhead not just the clubhead. If
you try to hole the "L" you're fighting physics. We want to comply
with physics not defy it.
Think about this; A hitter swings his left arm by straightening his
right. How can he swing the left arm from the top by keeping his
right arm bent until sternum high?
>and the right elbow is 'connected' to the chest again.
Right elbow connects to the chest???????????????
>From there you just have to straighten your right arm and the wrists
>uncock into impact. I don't understand how it can work any other way,
There's seems to be a lot you don't understand therefore you don't
know any other way.
>but I respect your opinion on this as much as everything else.
It isn't my opinion, it's scientific fact.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 02:01:19
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:ZOqah.12143$oP6.4155@trnddc03...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
> > posted on 10/5/06.
> >
> > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
of
> > improving lag?
>
> It seems to me that the most important thing to getting proper lag is
> the transition and beginning of the downswing. If you can get started
> down correctly, without casting the club, then the rest will somewhat
> take care of itself. I'm not convinced (for myself at least) how much
> you can really "hold" the lag once the downswing really gets going.
My experience is different (who wudda' thunk it). My lag (even when I am not
working on it) increases from it's value at the top until the point at which
my hands are just below my shoulders. My problems start at that point. And
as you observed, further control from there is difficult at best.
dave
>snip
|
| | | |
Date: 27 Nov 2006 06:13:00
From: Silvio Bierman
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:PFrah.3520$ql2.1187@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ZOqah.12143$oP6.4155@trnddc03...
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>> > This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject
>> > first
>> > posted on 10/5/06.
>> >
>> > Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question
> of
>> > improving lag?
>>
>> It seems to me that the most important thing to getting proper lag is
>> the transition and beginning of the downswing. If you can get started
>> down correctly, without casting the club, then the rest will somewhat
>> take care of itself. I'm not convinced (for myself at least) how much
>> you can really "hold" the lag once the downswing really gets going.
>
> My experience is different (who wudda' thunk it). My lag (even when I am
> not
> working on it) increases from it's value at the top until the point at
> which
> my hands are just below my shoulders. My problems start at that point. And
> as you observed, further control from there is difficult at best.
>
> dave
>
>>snip
>
>
Decreasing lag from that point on indicates either hand action or
decceleration. It might be both.
I used to have this problem and my getting handsy early in the swing was
purely caused by bad tempo (to abrupt change from backswing to downswing).
When I got rid of that the handsyness was gone as well.
Silvio Bierman
|
| |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 15:03:41
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:2Vlah.3483$sf5.489@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
> posted on 10/5/06.
>
> FWIW, the timing is perfect as it looks like I'll have some time to think
> about this vs. work on it. Last Sunday evening I caught the little toe of
> my
> right foot on a bedframe. When it happened I wondered 'did I break that
> thing?'. Swelling the beginning of blood pooling in my foot tentatively
> confirmed that suspicion the next morning. But there really isn't much to
> be
> done about that.
>
> Then yesterday I was doing some painting in the house and using a standard
> fold-up (two-step) stepstool. I took my usual foot pointing out, weight on
> the inside step up to keep weight off the toe, and the stepstool went
> sideways, I went sideways, and I torque'ed my knee severely aggravating an
> old (and quite frankly forgotten) knee injury while simultaneously banging
> the injured toe. It'll be a few days before I'm swinging the club.
>
> The toe event actually happened in a motel room while making my annual
> visit
> with my teaching pro. We had agreed ahead of time that working on
> improving
> my lag would be the goal of this year's trip.
>
> My pro's philosophy toward making swing changes is very similar to Dr.
> Carey
> Mumford's "Clear Key" perspective on things. In a nutshell it is drill
> based
> mixing 'doing it right' however that might be achieved (customized
> teaching
> aids, slow motion movement, break the swing into pieces, etc) and full
> swings. I find it to be a sound approach to the problem.
>
> The drill that he has me doing is something that he calls the 'dagger
> drill'. It is similar to 'the pump drill' which I think is fairly
> well-known. You take your backswing and then downswing to roughly where
> your
> hands are even with the ball being VERY careful to hold your wrist angle.
> You then pump back/forth between this position and the top of the
> backswing
> a few times before actually hitting the ball.
>
> I've been quite surprised to find that I can't even hold my lag properly
> when hitting the ball in the dagger drill, although there is a definite
> improvement in coming into the ball from the inside. My next step (after
> some recovery time) will be to start taking smaller and smaller swings
> with
> the dagger drill (probably with a SW or LW) until I find something that
> (from a lag perspective) I can do correctly when hitting the ball in the
> dagger drill.
>
> My teaching pro doesn't object to this, but his first choice would be to
> have me stick with the full swing dagger drill swings.
>
> Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question of
> improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my normal
> practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the case
> for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach (directly)
> of
> just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
>
When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered in
replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of space:
that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3 feet.
And this was with various length backswings, such that if the backswing were
"to the top," the release would occur too easy and be wasted by the time the
hands got to the right pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the hands
no higher than the belt, it was possible to START the release when the hands
reached mid body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about 3
inches of travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level with
the ground all the way to the ball.
So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is I
HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the club
IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or more
skilled player who controls his timing better.
When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and stop
frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
|
| | |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 20:21:22
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:kqmah.25149$m9.11267@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:2Vlah.3483$sf5.489@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
snip
> >
> >
> When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered
in
> replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of space:
> that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3 feet.
> And this was with various length backswings, such that if the backswing
were
> "to the top," the release would occur too easy and be wasted by the time
the
> hands got to the right pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the
hands
> no higher than the belt, it was possible to START the release when the
hands
> reached mid body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about
3
> inches of travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level
with
> the ground all the way to the ball.
>
> So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is
I
> HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
> ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
> occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
> and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the club
> IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
>
> This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or
more
> skilled player who controls his timing better.
>
> When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and
stop
> frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
>
>
Thanks for the comments, George. For me I don't know if the change will be
an "aha moment", a long and tortuous path (this is what my instructor
believes), or a complete failure.
But FWIW I looked at a swing of Chad Campbell vs. me just now. In the frame
where it is obvious that your hands are now below the belt buckle it is
exactly four more frame to get to impact for me and for Chad. However the
lag angle for Chad (angle between his shaft and left forearm) is 83 degrees
while mine is 118.
Of course if I were able to achieve Chad's lag in my swing, I would be
transferring more momentum from my arms to the clubhead and my arms would
slow down more than they do.
But for now I've got the same arm speed as Chad Campbell!! :-)
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 16:01:33
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:6Hmah.3514$sf5.2229@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:kqmah.25149$m9.11267@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:2Vlah.3483$sf5.489@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> snip
>> >
>> >
>> When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered
> in
>> replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of space:
>> that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3 feet.
>> And this was with various length backswings, such that if the backswing
> were
>> "to the top," the release would occur too easy and be wasted by the time
> the
>> hands got to the right pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the
> hands
>> no higher than the belt, it was possible to START the release when the
> hands
>> reached mid body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about
> 3
>> inches of travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level
> with
>> the ground all the way to the ball.
>>
>> So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is
> I
>> HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
>> ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
>> occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
>> and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the
>> club
>> IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
>>
>> This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or
> more
>> skilled player who controls his timing better.
>>
>> When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and
> stop
>> frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the comments, George. For me I don't know if the change will be
> an "aha moment", a long and tortuous path (this is what my instructor
> believes), or a complete failure.
>
> But FWIW I looked at a swing of Chad Campbell vs. me just now. In the
> frame
> where it is obvious that your hands are now below the belt buckle it is
> exactly four more frame to get to impact for me and for Chad. However the
> lag angle for Chad (angle between his shaft and left forearm) is 83
> degrees
> while mine is 118.
>
> Of course if I were able to achieve Chad's lag in my swing, I would be
> transferring more momentum from my arms to the clubhead and my arms would
> slow down more than they do.
>
> But for now I've got the same arm speed as Chad Campbell!! :-)
>
> dave
>
>
Dave, as I said and didn't fully complete, the subconscious ACTS AGAINST OUR
KNOWLEDGE to advance the SHAFT. Which causes the release to start too
early. You have to move your hands in such a way that if the clubshaft were
elastic, you'd STRETCH it. ANY other force applied does dissipate the lag
angle IMMEDIATELY. Chad has simply learned NOT to do something leveragewise
to the shaft. As you say your arms move about the same speed. So it isn't
that you can't do what he does: it is that the demon inside is resisting --
and the demon is ALWAYS because of a misperception, an unconscious belief
that is based on a wrong premise. You HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR IMAGE, and the
drill is the only way the instructor has to be able to LEARN YOU. Which of
course he can't do: he can show you but you LEARN yourself. ANd that by
empirical evidence that you can't deny.
Another take on this is to NOT USE your right hand at all during this drill
for about 6 months. No, I take that back: use it TO HOLD THE SHAFT ABOUT
HALF WAY DOWN to KEEP it from advancing so that you DO bring the entire L
shape assembly to where your left hand is IN FRONT OF YOUR ZIPPER before you
release your right hand. When your left hand IS there the club will then be
parallel to the ground. THAT is when you let go with the right hand and
watch the immediacy of the release.
Research Paul Bertholy
|
| | |
Date: 26 Nov 2006 15:16:08
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag (continued)
|
Posted to correct a typo below: not "too easy..." "too EARLY"
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:kqmah.25149$m9.11267@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:2Vlah.3483$sf5.489@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> This is kind of a continuation of the thread with the same Subject first
>> posted on 10/5/06.
>>
>> FWIW, the timing is perfect as it looks like I'll have some time to think
>> about this vs. work on it. Last Sunday evening I caught the little toe of
>> my
>> right foot on a bedframe. When it happened I wondered 'did I break that
>> thing?'. Swelling the beginning of blood pooling in my foot tentatively
>> confirmed that suspicion the next morning. But there really isn't much to
>> be
>> done about that.
>>
>> Then yesterday I was doing some painting in the house and using a
>> standard
>> fold-up (two-step) stepstool. I took my usual foot pointing out, weight
>> on
>> the inside step up to keep weight off the toe, and the stepstool went
>> sideways, I went sideways, and I torque'ed my knee severely aggravating
>> an
>> old (and quite frankly forgotten) knee injury while simultaneously
>> banging
>> the injured toe. It'll be a few days before I'm swinging the club.
>>
>> The toe event actually happened in a motel room while making my annual
>> visit
>> with my teaching pro. We had agreed ahead of time that working on
>> improving
>> my lag would be the goal of this year's trip.
>>
>> My pro's philosophy toward making swing changes is very similar to Dr.
>> Carey
>> Mumford's "Clear Key" perspective on things. In a nutshell it is drill
>> based
>> mixing 'doing it right' however that might be achieved (customized
>> teaching
>> aids, slow motion movement, break the swing into pieces, etc) and full
>> swings. I find it to be a sound approach to the problem.
>>
>> The drill that he has me doing is something that he calls the 'dagger
>> drill'. It is similar to 'the pump drill' which I think is fairly
>> well-known. You take your backswing and then downswing to roughly where
>> your
>> hands are even with the ball being VERY careful to hold your wrist angle.
>> You then pump back/forth between this position and the top of the
>> backswing
>> a few times before actually hitting the ball.
>>
>> I've been quite surprised to find that I can't even hold my lag properly
>> when hitting the ball in the dagger drill, although there is a definite
>> improvement in coming into the ball from the inside. My next step (after
>> some recovery time) will be to start taking smaller and smaller swings
>> with
>> the dagger drill (probably with a SW or LW) until I find something that
>> (from a lag perspective) I can do correctly when hitting the ball in the
>> dagger drill.
>>
>> My teaching pro doesn't object to this, but his first choice would be to
>> have me stick with the full swing dagger drill swings.
>>
>> Thoughts or opinions on this specific question or the general question of
>> improving lag? BTW I continue to be fascinated by the fact that my normal
>> practice swing has very good lag and I assume that this has been the case
>> for many years. Some time ago I gave up on taking the approach (directly)
>> of
>> just making my 'practice swing' at the ball.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> dave
>>
>>
> When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered
> in replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of
> space: that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3
> feet. And this was with various length backswings, such that if the
> backswing were "to the top," the release would occur TOO EARLY (posted to
> correct a typo) -- and be wasted by the time the hands got to the right
> pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the hands no higher than the
> belt, it was possible to START the release when the hands reached mid
> body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about 3 inches of
> travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level with the
> ground all the way to the ball.
>
> So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is
> I HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
> ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
> occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
> and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the club
> IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
>
> This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or
> more skilled player who controls his timing better.
>
> When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and
> stop frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
>
>
>
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 19:31:49
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Sorry About The Multiple ... (on improving lag)
|
... posts . I got caught up in some kind of OE bug. Please insert criticism
for using OE as a newsreader here :-)
dave
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