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Main
Date: 05 Oct 2006 19:55:48
From: Dave Lee
Subject: On Improving Lag
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I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
fundamentals are improved.
From my experience that seems correct. Other
comments/observations/experiences on this?
Thanks.
dave
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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The_Professor wrote:
> SKIPPER wrote:
> > The_Professor wrote:
> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> > > we think arm swing hard.
> >
> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> > hard as I can.
> >
>
> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
No.
On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
move.
with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
the shot.
hth
-PA
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 08:44:37
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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On 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>The_Professor wrote:
>> SKIPPER wrote:
>> > The_Professor wrote:
>> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
>> > > we think arm swing hard.
>> >
>> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
>> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
>> > hard as I can.
>> >
>>
>> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
>> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
>> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
>
>No.
>
>On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
>before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
>
>On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
>move.
>
>with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
>hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
>the shot.
Yep, IF you have moved up to pivot around your front leg.
If you have lagged back and then "swing hard" you will slice it across
two fairways.
Larry
>
>hth
>
>-PA
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 23:08:19
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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In article <bjosi2ti7hb7898h55tklfmhqd43ge7rrp@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> SKIPPER wrote:
> >> > The_Professor wrote:
> >> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> >> > > we think arm swing hard.
> >> >
> >> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> >> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> >> > hard as I can.
> >> >
> >>
> >> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
> >> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
> >> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
> >
> >No.
> >
> >On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
> >before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
> >
> >On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
> >move.
> >
> >with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
> >hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
> >the shot.
>
> Yep, IF you have moved up to pivot around your front leg.
>
> If you have lagged back and then "swing hard" you will slice it across
> two fairways.
Please. Come out to a real golf course and I'll swing with my front foot
in the air and still hit hooks if you like...
>
> Larry
> >
> >hth
> >
> >-PA
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 16:46:46
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
SKIPPER wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> > we think arm swing hard.
>
> Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> hard as I can.
>
More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 14:09:16
From: Ersatz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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larry wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
>
> Larry
Impressive lag, can you keep it with a full flowing swing, any vids of
you hitting a ball??
Rog
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 16:21:07
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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On 11 Oct 2006 14:09:16 -0700, "Ersatz" <rog@repairman.com > wrote:
>
>larry wrote:
>
>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>>
>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
>>
>> Larry
>
>Impressive lag, can you keep it with a full flowing swing, any vids of
>you hitting a ball??
Of course. I do the identical action. The extremely loose grip
pressure and "rag doll" arm tension allows me to just throw it up into
a deep wrist set-- and when I start down with hips that wrist cock is
preserved and released late. I try to imitate Bobby Jones' tempo.
Swing it up and swing it down rhythmically.
The only way I could screw it up is to grip the club so firmly that
the wrist cock could not happen due to momentum or I grab the club and
"throw" it down from the top--casting. Tension kills the golf
swing. But not MY golf swing, ha.
When I practice I work to more quickly achieve that deep wrist cock
and preserve even longer-- with a more definite transition weight
shift.
The best way to practice this is with wedge, BTW. Create the "swish"
as far ahead of your front foot as possible.
Larry
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 11:39:27
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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The_Professor wrote:
> When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> we think arm swing hard.
Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
hard as I can.
-PA
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 06:46:29
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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On Oct 11, 7:05 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in messagenews:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> > "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> demonstrated in this video clip.
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
> > Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
> still does in a lesser degree...
You say Tiger's head is in front (on the target side) of the ball at
impact?
I call BS. Let's see a picture.
FYI, Jim McLean said he and his staff has analyzed video from hundreds
of pros, and has never seen a single pro with his head in front of the
ball
at impact. There is usually some variation, but
this turned out to be an absolute characteristic of a pro swing.
On the other hand, many amateurs end up at impact with
their head in front of the ball.
The head may move forward on the downswing, but not in
front of the ball.
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 10:03:54
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1160574389.653633.79390@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Oct 11, 7:05 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> > Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by
>> > impact?
>>Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>> still does in a lesser degree...
>
> You say Tiger's head is in front (on the target side) of the ball at
> impact?
> I call BS. Let's see a picture.
Just look at pg 27 of GH's book "Perfect Impact".
He shows a pic of a golfer doing just as he said, --head 7 inches ahead of
the ball at impact.
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 13:33:41
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:452d2403$0$598$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1160574389.653633.79390@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 7:05 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>>> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in
>>> messagenews:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>>
>>> > Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by
>>> > impact?
>
>>>Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>>> still does in a lesser degree...
>>
>> You say Tiger's head is in front (on the target side) of the ball at
>> impact?
>> I call BS. Let's see a picture.
>
> Just look at pg 27 of GH's book "Perfect Impact".
> He shows a pic of a golfer doing just as he said, --head 7 inches ahead of
> the ball at impact.
>
Your dishonesty surfaces again, Brad. Like you didn't know the story behind
the schematic photo you reference, in a context that had nothing to do with
the head of the golfer, but was only to explain other details.
I do stand corrected as to imputing TW's head IN FRONT of the ball for a
normal full shot: he dipped some 8" or so, same as the Ryder Cup captain Tom
Lehman... So dropping the head is one thing: in front of the ball is
another.
When ball position is back, however, the head doesn't seek to go behind THAT
as for chips....
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 16:58:20
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:TV9Xg.6316$nn6.5280@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> news:452d2403$0$598$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1160574389.653633.79390@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 7:05 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>>>> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in
>>>> messagenews:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>>>
>>>> > Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by
>>>> > impact?
>>
>>>>Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>>>> still does in a lesser degree...
>>>
>>> You say Tiger's head is in front (on the target side) of the ball at
>>> impact?
>>> I call BS. Let's see a picture.
>>
>> Just look at pg 27 of GH's book "Perfect Impact".
>> He shows a pic of a golfer doing just as he said, --head 7 inches ahead
>> of the ball at impact.
>>
> Your dishonesty surfaces again, Brad. Like you didn't know the story
> behind the schematic photo you reference, in a context that had nothing to
> do with the head of the golfer, but was only to explain other details.
>
> I do stand corrected as to imputing TW's head IN FRONT of the ball for a
> normal full shot: he dipped some 8" or so, same as the Ryder Cup captain
> Tom Lehman... So dropping the head is one thing: in front of the ball
> is another.
>
> When ball position is back, however, the head doesn't seek to go behind
> THAT as for chips....
What in my post was dishonest.
Your Pic, pg 27, photo 11 says...
" This photo shows a correct impact position..."
The guy's head is 7 inches ahead of the ball at impact
The guys rt knee is 6 inches ahead of the ball at impact
Do you teach that the golfer should do this?
Do you teach that the golfer should set up this way, or simply move this far
targetward by impact?
By the way...I saw the video of your swing.....You playing off hot coals, or
just learning a dance?
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 19:50:06
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Dene wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Alan Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> > > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
> > >
> > > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
> >
> > No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
>
> Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
>
> > > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
> > >
> > > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
> > > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
> > > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
> > > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
> > >
> > > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
> > > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
> >
> > They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
>
> Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
> substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
> thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
> rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
> hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
> swing.
When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
we think arm swing hard.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:53:16
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
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> > The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> > swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> > properly.
>
> You can believe whatever you want, and as such I wish you the best.
> However, every single top level player that I have seen comment on the
> issue says that you cannot swing "hard". You have to make a nice, easy
> downswing if you want to play well. People of differeing athletic
> abilities will have different swingspeeds; Tiger being an extreme.
Exactly... an extreme example of someone that can and does swing hard
and plays well...
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 02:54:09
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <1160531593.337009.214870@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
> > > The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> > > swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> > > properly.
> >
> > You can believe whatever you want, and as such I wish you the best.
> > However, every single top level player that I have seen comment on the
> > issue says that you cannot swing "hard". You have to make a nice, easy
> > downswing if you want to play well. People of differeing athletic
> > abilities will have different swingspeeds; Tiger being an extreme.
>
> Exactly... an extreme example of someone that can and does swing hard
> and plays well...
No. He's a perfect example of someone who does not swing hard.
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 15:38:15
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
> >
> > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
>
> No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
> > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
> >
> > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
> > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
> > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
> > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
> >
> > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
> > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
>
> They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
swing.
-Greg
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 16:12:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 15:38:15 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:
>
>Alan Baker wrote:
>> In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Alan Baker wrote:
>> >
>> > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
>> > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
>> >
>> > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
>>
>> No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
>
>Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
>
>> > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
>> >
>> > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
>> > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
>> > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
>> > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
>> >
>> > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
>> > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
>>
>> They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
>
>Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
>substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
>thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
>rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
>hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
>swing.
The golf swing is very related to the baseball swing. And nearly
every batter swings it as hard as he can-- The idea in both sports is
to maintain good form.
99% (or more) of amateur golfers lag back and pivot around their back
leg-- instead of their front leg. Accordingly, they throw their arms
in an unsynchronized slash at the ball, unable to make crisp contact,
a divot in front of the ball, and of course unable to make a normal
classic finish; their clubhead decelerates before impact. For them
'swinging hard' is simply silly, because since their arms are not
synchronized with their body, they will too often hit it across two
fairways or deeper into the lake.
Golfers who cannot learn the transition move onto their front leg
should play the ball off their back foot and swing smoothly-- just
bunt it straight all the way around the course. Don't swing hard
enough to knock it OB or into the hazards when it inevitably flies off
line. Such golfers can learn to play scratch golf (from the white
tees).
Roger Gunn illustrates the difference. In his final swing he
transitions to his front leg and achieves a normal lag and release.
Same effort, the ball goes 100+ yards farther.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
Larry
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| | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 23:18:36
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <lm9oi2h24bk5jglfsvnik1k4f4o7si7lv0@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2006 15:38:15 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Alan Baker wrote:
> >> In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Alan Baker wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as
> >> > > none
> >> > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
> >> >
> >> > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
> >>
> >> No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
> >
> >Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
> >
> >> > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
> >> >
> >> > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
> >> > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
> >> > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
> >> > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
> >> >
> >> > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
> >> > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
> >>
> >> They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
> >
> >Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
> >substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
> >thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
> >rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
> >hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
> >swing.
>
> The golf swing is very related to the baseball swing. And nearly
> every batter swings it as hard as he can-- The idea in both sports is
> to maintain good form.
But the batter isn't concerned with the precise *direction* of his hit,
is he Larry?
>
> 99% (or more) of amateur golfers lag back and pivot around their back
> leg-- instead of their front leg. Accordingly, they throw their arms
> in an unsynchronized slash at the ball, unable to make crisp contact,
> a divot in front of the ball, and of course unable to make a normal
> classic finish; their clubhead decelerates before impact. For them
> 'swinging hard' is simply silly, because since their arms are not
> synchronized with their body, they will too often hit it across two
> fairways or deeper into the lake.
What is your source for this 99% claim?
>
> Golfers who cannot learn the transition move onto their front leg
> should play the ball off their back foot and swing smoothly-- just
> bunt it straight all the way around the course. Don't swing hard
> enough to knock it OB or into the hazards when it inevitably flies off
> line. Such golfers can learn to play scratch golf (from the white
> tees).
But you can't get your handicap any lower despite whatever "secret"
you're currently touting....
>
> Roger Gunn illustrates the difference. In his final swing he
> transitions to his front leg and achieves a normal lag and release.
> Same effort, the ball goes 100+ yards farther.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
How far does your drive go, Larry?
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 16:29:06
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:18:36 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <lm9oi2h24bk5jglfsvnik1k4f4o7si7lv0@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10 Oct 2006 15:38:15 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Alan Baker wrote:
>> >> In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Alan Baker wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as
>> >> > > none
>> >> > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
>> >> >
>> >> > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
>> >>
>> >> No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
>> >
>> >Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
>> >
>> >> > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
>> >> > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
>> >> > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
>> >> > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
>> >> > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
>> >>
>> >> They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
>> >
>> >Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
>> >substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
>> >thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
>> >rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
>> >hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
>> >swing.
>>
>> The golf swing is very related to the baseball swing. And nearly
>> every batter swings it as hard as he can-- The idea in both sports is
>> to maintain good form.
>
>But the batter isn't concerned with the precise *direction* of his hit,
>is he Larry?
>
>>
>> 99% (or more) of amateur golfers lag back and pivot around their back
>> leg-- instead of their front leg. Accordingly, they throw their arms
>> in an unsynchronized slash at the ball, unable to make crisp contact,
>> a divot in front of the ball, and of course unable to make a normal
>> classic finish; their clubhead decelerates before impact. For them
>> 'swinging hard' is simply silly, because since their arms are not
>> synchronized with their body, they will too often hit it across two
>> fairways or deeper into the lake.
>
>What is your source for this 99% claim?
>
>>
>> Golfers who cannot learn the transition move onto their front leg
>> should play the ball off their back foot and swing smoothly-- just
>> bunt it straight all the way around the course. Don't swing hard
>> enough to knock it OB or into the hazards when it inevitably flies off
>> line. Such golfers can learn to play scratch golf (from the white
>> tees).
>
>But you can't get your handicap any lower despite whatever "secret"
>you're currently touting....
>
>>
>> Roger Gunn illustrates the difference. In his final swing he
>> transitions to his front leg and achieves a normal lag and release.
>> Same effort, the ball goes 100+ yards farther.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
>
>How far does your drive go, Larry?
Oh, I get it. Allen Baker and "Ernie" are the same guy. Thanks. I
won't be reading or replying to those posts either.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 00:14:14
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <93boi29aoe8onfnld1cop8uv835ph5ag6g@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:18:36 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <lm9oi2h24bk5jglfsvnik1k4f4o7si7lv0@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10 Oct 2006 15:38:15 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Alan Baker wrote:
> >> >> In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Alan Baker wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as
> >> >> > > none
> >> >> > > of us should swing hard *for us*.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
> >> >>
> >> >> No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
> >> >
> >> >Cite. I think you'll find he's referring to his old swing.
> >> >
> >> >> > A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
> >> >> > with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
> >> >> > shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
> >> >> > top of the backswing, nothing to it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
> >> >> > Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
> >> >>
> >> >> They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
> >> >
> >> >Does "they" include Hogan because, unlike you, he did a nice job
> >> >substantiating his point. I'll add another. Jacobsen stated that one
> >> >thing he like about his new 1P swing is that he can swing hard, i.e.
> >> >rotate his torso all-out. Tiger does the same thing too with his
> >> >hybrid 1P swing, whereas before, he had to rely on timing with his old
> >> >swing.
> >>
> >> The golf swing is very related to the baseball swing. And nearly
> >> every batter swings it as hard as he can-- The idea in both sports is
> >> to maintain good form.
> >
> >But the batter isn't concerned with the precise *direction* of his hit,
> >is he Larry?
Note: no response.
> >
> >>
> >> 99% (or more) of amateur golfers lag back and pivot around their back
> >> leg-- instead of their front leg. Accordingly, they throw their arms
> >> in an unsynchronized slash at the ball, unable to make crisp contact,
> >> a divot in front of the ball, and of course unable to make a normal
> >> classic finish; their clubhead decelerates before impact. For them
> >> 'swinging hard' is simply silly, because since their arms are not
> >> synchronized with their body, they will too often hit it across two
> >> fairways or deeper into the lake.
> >
> >What is your source for this 99% claim?
Note: no response.
> >
> >>
> >> Golfers who cannot learn the transition move onto their front leg
> >> should play the ball off their back foot and swing smoothly-- just
> >> bunt it straight all the way around the course. Don't swing hard
> >> enough to knock it OB or into the hazards when it inevitably flies off
> >> line. Such golfers can learn to play scratch golf (from the white
> >> tees).
> >
> >But you can't get your handicap any lower despite whatever "secret"
> >you're currently touting....
Note: no response.
> >
> >>
> >> Roger Gunn illustrates the difference. In his final swing he
> >> transitions to his front leg and achieves a normal lag and release.
> >> Same effort, the ball goes 100+ yards farther.
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
> >
> >How far does your drive go, Larry?
>
> Oh, I get it. Allen Baker and "Ernie" are the same guy. Thanks. I
> won't be reading or replying to those posts either.
LOL
How long did that take you to get, exactly?
|
| |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 11:27:44
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
SKIPPER wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> > might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> > difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> > swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> > the least control.
>
> That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
> at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
> of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
> also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
>
> The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> properly.
You can believe whatever you want, and as such I wish you the best.
However, every single top level player that I have seen comment on the
issue says that you cannot swing "hard". You have to make a nice, easy
downswing if you want to play well. People of differeing athletic
abilities will have different swingspeeds; Tiger being an extreme. That
swinging hard doesn't work is a fact to me, whether you have an upright
or flat swingplane.
|
| |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
The_Professor wrote:
> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> the least control.
That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
properly.
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 13:45:10
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
>That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
>at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
>of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
>also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
Arnie pretty consistently swung harder than Jack did. Usually Jack
kept more in reserve.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 11:59:21
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>The_Professor wrote:
>> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
>> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
>> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
>> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
>> the least control.
>
>That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
>at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
>of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
>also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
>
>The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
>swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
>properly.
If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 19:10:23
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <q5rni25deoac7ii1lntb8btgs26q9vq6pe@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> >> the least control.
> >
> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
> >
> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> >properly.
>
> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
>
> Larry
Larry,
You have insisted in the past that any attempt to push with your hands
will slow the club. Were you wrong when you insisted then or are you
wrong now?
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 15:57:37
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:10:23 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <q5rni25deoac7ii1lntb8btgs26q9vq6pe@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The_Professor wrote:
>> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
>> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
>> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
>> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
>> >> the least control.
>> >
>> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
>> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
>> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
>> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
>> >
>> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
>> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
>> >properly.
>>
>> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
>> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
>> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
>> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
>> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
>> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
>> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
>>
>> Larry
>
>Larry,
>
>You have insisted in the past that any attempt to push with your hands
>will slow the club. Were you wrong when you insisted then or are you
>wrong now?
Please, read the books so we can discuss this. It isn't fair when
some of us understand the golf swing and others don't-- your questions
reveal your ignorance of the basics.
The dominant lower hand PALM pushes against the upper hand's upper
thumb area-- the effect being to connect the two arms as a single
lever. The two hands with a very very loose grip pressure act as a
free hinge or swivel. Because they are loose, the wrist cock is set
by momentum during the backswng, preserved by inertia of the club
during the downswing, and released by centrifugal force through
impact. It all happens naturally IF the golfer starts his downswing
with a lateral hip "bump" and sets up in the "reverse K" position.
The fingers have no role except to hang on to the club to keep it from
flying away centrifugally.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 23:02:41
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <es8oi218k2m75pcdbmqre69jquea8cfbi4@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:10:23 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <q5rni25deoac7ii1lntb8btgs26q9vq6pe@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> >> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> >> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> >> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> >> >> the least control.
> >> >
> >> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
> >> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
> >> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
> >> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
> >> >
> >> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> >> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> >> >properly.
> >>
> >> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
> >> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
> >> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
> >> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
> >> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
> >> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
> >> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >Larry,
> >
> >You have insisted in the past that any attempt to push with your hands
> >will slow the club. Were you wrong when you insisted then or are you
> >wrong now?
>
> Please, read the books so we can discuss this. It isn't fair when
> some of us understand the golf swing and others don't-- your questions
> reveal your ignorance of the basics.
Please.I can swing the club better while actually hitting the ball than
you can in a staged practice swing, and I've taken a grand total of --
IIRC -- four lessons, and none in the last ten years.
I don't need to read the books, Larry. I just do it right.
>
> The dominant lower hand PALM pushes against the upper hand's upper
> thumb area-- the effect being to connect the two arms as a single
> lever. The two hands with a very very loose grip pressure act as a
> free hinge or swivel. Because they are loose, the wrist cock is set
> by momentum during the backswng, preserved by inertia of the club
> during the downswing, and released by centrifugal force through
> impact. It all happens naturally IF the golfer starts his downswing
> with a lateral hip "bump" and sets up in the "reverse K" position.
Would you like me to quote the posts where you directly contradict the
idea that you can push with the lower hand?
>
> The fingers have no role except to hang on to the club to keep it from
> flying away centrifugally.
So now it's the *fingers* that have no role...
|
| |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 11:13:06
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Alan Baker wrote:
> But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> of us should swing hard *for us*.
Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
top of the backswing, nothing to it.
Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:14:24
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <1160503986.670912.159600@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
>
> > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> > of us should swing hard *for us*.
>
> Tiger definitely swings hard for him.
No, he doesn't. He is on record as saying so.
>
> A one-plane swinger can swing pretty hard.
>
> Hogan says in his book that he swings at his driver
> with all his might quite often. Once the arms hands
> shoulders hips legs are all aligned and ready at the
> top of the backswing, nothing to it.
>
> Jack Nicklaus also swung really hard, so did Arnie,
> Tom Watson...if the timing is there, why not?
They didn't swing hard for themselves either.
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 21:50:35
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 12, 7:28 pm, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net > wrote:
> In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1...@4ax.com>,
>
> larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
> > >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> > >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> > >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
>
> > Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> > from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> > that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> > hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> > treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so. You are simply incorrect, as usual.
>
> A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
> club's *path*. For many this occurs when they swing from out to in with
> the clubface being kept approximately perpendicular to the target line
> at the moment of impact. For quite a few others it occurs when the face
> is perpendicular to a line to the right of the target line, but the path
> of the club is towards the target.
>
> That you don't understand these facts shows just how shallow your
> knowledge of the golf swing really is.
It's too bad Larry has you kill-filed, and won't be able to see this.
:-)
Hey, Larry, keep on swaying. It looks good on you - honest!
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 17:33:54
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1kqm@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
> > >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> > >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> > >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
> >
> > Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> > from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> > that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> > hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> > treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
>
> You are simply incorrect, as usual.
>
> A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
> club's *path*.
...unless of course it is closed to the path... :)
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Oct 2006 00:37:38
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <1160699634.233384.21620@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1kqm@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> > > >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> > > >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
> > >
> > > Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> > > from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> > > that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> > > hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> > > treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
> >
> > You are simply incorrect, as usual.
> >
> > A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
> > club's *path*.
>
> ...unless of course it is closed to the path... :)
Well, yes... duh!
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 07:46:42
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 9, 9:13 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1160398644.669030.199310@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I agree that rehearsing the move with a practice swing or waggle is
> > helpful.
> > I do a lot of rehearsals where I'm trying to feel the turn of the body
> > causing
> > the club to swing, and the right wrist keeping it's set.
>
> > However, I don't see the reason for whiffle balls and particular not
> > for using
> > a tee. Seems counter-productive. My pro has me hitting a lot of
> > chips and small pitches, but on the ground, not a tee. And he has me
> > paying a lot of attention to the divot - that there is one, and that it
> > starts
> > on the target side of the ball.
>
> > One drill he has me do with a tee is to stick it in the ground a couple
> > inches
> > in front (on the target side) of the ball. My goal is to pop the tee
> > out of the
> > ground.The difficulty that Dave had was not 'hitting the ball,' but hitting it with
> his PRACTICE swing. He could not use his natural uncontrived good swing for
> hitting golf balls: "Ball-bound" is one term describing the glitch people
> experience between just swinging and then hitting the ball with the same
> motion; it is a psychological barrier expressed by two well known examples:
> Charles Barclay and Hank Haney: everyone in golf MUST by now have seen the
> incredible stop/start in Barclay's swing, and Haney openly speaks about
> having the yips with his driver.
>
> It is because of the presence of a ball that we feel we need to hit.
>
> So the teed ball or the whiffle ball removes some or all of the "fear of
> what will happen" that paralyzes us SUBconsciously into other things.
>
> David Lee's drills in the two Gravity Golf programs are ALL about overcoming
> this barrier - i.e., the difference between unconciously swinging with
> nothing on your mind except direction and intention, vs. manipulating the
> club mid-swing in order to 'guide it proprioceptionally' to the ball with
> overcontrol and fear.
>
> Overcoming fear is perhaps THE major hurdle for adult beginners and advanced
> (Barclay is no mean athlete, nor is Haney...) who wrestle with such issues.
>
> Your point is obviously a great practice procedure--and perhaps it could
> work for this particular problem. I have a problem doing that or teaching
> that procedure for this issue, though, because it is SO EASY to overcontrol
> easy swings and do something contrived instead of flowing and free unless
> the instant before the hit-the-ball one the swing is felt and is observable
> by someone (even self) to see if the real one DOES DIFFER IN ANY WAY
> WHATSOEVER with the one just previous when it was a dry air-swing.
LOL, OK, whatever. If you think that hitting the ball off a tee is a
good
to work on increasing lag with irons, it must be so.
|
| |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 05:57:01
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
dsc wrote:
> Alan Baker wrote:
> > In article <1160439267.900026.214130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > The_Professor wrote:
> > > > dsc wrote:
> > > > > >Never see a
> > > > > > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper"
> > > > > > though,
> > > > > > but no one who is really any good.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
> > > >
> > > > He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
> > > > would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
> > > > me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
> > > > lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
> > >
> > > I didnt' say he swings as hard as he can (most of the time he probably
> > > doesn't)... I said he swings hard as hell... and I don't think many
> > > people will argue with that. He is the only professional golfer I've
> > > ever seen whose full swing looks effortful... rather than effortless.
> > > You can readily see the power... it's not hiding anywhere. There are
> > > even times when he's hacking out of the rough when he swings as hard as
> > > he can and looks like us. I've heard him say in interviews later
> > > something to the effect that he just swung as hard as he could to get
> > > it out. The only difference is... he is almost always successful. :)
> >
> > But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> > of us should swing hard *for us*.
>
> I think it was The Professor that said *without qualifiation* that
> noone could play well and swing hard. I disagree. There is at least one
> person that can (and does) do that. He may be the only one though.
And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
the least control.
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:47:13
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <1160439267.900026.214130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> > The_Professor wrote:
> > > dsc wrote:
> > > > >Never see a
> > > > > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper"
> > > > > though,
> > > > > but no one who is really any good.
> > > >
> > > > There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
> > >
> > > He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
> > > would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
> > > me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
> > > lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
> >
> > I didnt' say he swings as hard as he can (most of the time he probably
> > doesn't)... I said he swings hard as hell... and I don't think many
> > people will argue with that. He is the only professional golfer I've
> > ever seen whose full swing looks effortful... rather than effortless.
> > You can readily see the power... it's not hiding anywhere. There are
> > even times when he's hacking out of the rough when he swings as hard as
> > he can and looks like us. I've heard him say in interviews later
> > something to the effect that he just swung as hard as he could to get
> > it out. The only difference is... he is almost always successful. :)
>
> But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
> of us should swing hard *for us*.
I think it was The Professor that said *without qualifiation* that
noone could play well and swing hard. I disagree. There is at least one
person that can (and does) do that. He may be the only one though.
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:28:07
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
dsc wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > dsc wrote:
> > > >Never see a
> > > > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper" though,
> > > > but no one who is really any good.
> > >
> > > There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
> >
> > He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
> > would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
> > me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
> > lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
>
> I didnt' say he swings as hard as he can (most of the time he probably
> doesn't)... I said he swings hard as hell... and I don't think many
> people will argue with that. He is the only professional golfer I've
> ever seen whose full swing looks effortful... rather than effortless.
> You can readily see the power... it's not hiding anywhere. There are
> even times when he's hacking out of the rough when he swings as hard as
> he can and looks like us. I've heard him say in interviews later
> something to the effect that he just swung as hard as he could to get
> it out. The only difference is... he is almost always successful. :)
I can't disagree with any of that!
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 17:14:27
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
The_Professor wrote:
> dsc wrote:
> > >Never see a
> > > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper" though,
> > > but no one who is really any good.
> >
> > There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
>
> He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
> would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
> me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
> lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
I didnt' say he swings as hard as he can (most of the time he probably
doesn't)... I said he swings hard as hell... and I don't think many
people will argue with that. He is the only professional golfer I've
ever seen whose full swing looks effortful... rather than effortless.
You can readily see the power... it's not hiding anywhere. There are
even times when he's hacking out of the rough when he swings as hard as
he can and looks like us. I've heard him say in interviews later
something to the effect that he just swung as hard as he could to get
it out. The only difference is... he is almost always successful. :)
|
| | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 00:39:26
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <1160439267.900026.214130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > dsc wrote:
> > > >Never see a
> > > > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper"
> > > > though,
> > > > but no one who is really any good.
> > >
> > > There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
> >
> > He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
> > would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
> > me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
> > lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
>
> I didnt' say he swings as hard as he can (most of the time he probably
> doesn't)... I said he swings hard as hell... and I don't think many
> people will argue with that. He is the only professional golfer I've
> ever seen whose full swing looks effortful... rather than effortless.
> You can readily see the power... it's not hiding anywhere. There are
> even times when he's hacking out of the rough when he swings as hard as
> he can and looks like us. I've heard him say in interviews later
> something to the effect that he just swung as hard as he could to get
> it out. The only difference is... he is almost always successful. :)
But that's the real point: that he doesn't swing hard *for him*; as none
of us should swing hard *for us*.
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 09:39:49
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 12, 10:44 am, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> SKIPPER wrote:
> >> > The_Professor wrote:
> >> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> >> > > we think arm swing hard.
>
> >> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> >> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> >> > hard as I can.
>
> >> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
> >> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
> >> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
>
> >No.
>
> >On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
> >before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
>
> >On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
> >move.
>
> >with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
> >hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
> >the shot.Yep, IF you have moved up to pivot around your front leg.
>
> If you have lagged back and then "swing hard" you will slice it across
> two fairways.
You should take a closer look at the swing of your hero Alan Doyle.
He doesn't do what you say is essential.
The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
You are obsessing on something which actually IS relatively
inconsequential, in the grand scheme of things. And you
are trying to fix what you perceive as a problem in the
wrong way - by swaying your upper body, instead of rocking
the hips (which can be an unconcious relex) and turning.
Seriously, Larry, you need to go take another series of lessons.
I can't believe any competent pro is teaching you this.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 16:48:00
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 12 Oct 2006 09:39:49 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
<bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>On Oct 12, 10:44 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
>> On 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >The_Professor wrote:
>> >> SKIPPER wrote:
>> >> > The_Professor wrote:
>> >> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
>> >> > > we think arm swing hard.
>>
>> >> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
>> >> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
>> >> > hard as I can.
>>
>> >> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
>> >> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
>> >> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
>>
>> >No.
>>
>> >On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
>> >before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
>>
>> >On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
>> >move.
>>
>> >with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
>> >hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
>> >the shot.Yep, IF you have moved up to pivot around your front leg.
>>
>> If you have lagged back and then "swing hard" you will slice it across
>> two fairways.
>
>You should take a closer look at the swing of your hero Alan Doyle.
>He doesn't do what you say is essential.
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/doyle_clip.html Look
again, he is driving forward, totally on his front foot at impact. He
is perfect through impact, which is the reason he hits it straight so
consistently-- enough to be among the best on the Champion's tour-- a
tour so tough that almost no top amateurs can get a sniff. 80
amateurs and pros try every week in their Monday qualifying round--
and 2 get to play that week. If you can't shoot 64 on a championship
course, you don't make it.
>
>The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
>Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
>you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
>
>You are obsessing on something which actually IS relatively
>inconsequential, in the grand scheme of things. And you
>are trying to fix what you perceive as a problem in the
>wrong way - by swaying your upper body, instead of rocking
>the hips (which can be an unconcious relex) and turning.
>
>Seriously, Larry, you need to go take another series of lessons.
>I can't believe any competent pro is teaching you this.
You need to do some serious reading about the golf swing. Start with
SLAP. Dr. Mann explains in exhaustive detail why moving onto our
front foot, the transition move, is vitally important to consistent
accuracy and distance. When we both know the same stuff we can
debate.
larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Oct 2006 00:28:27
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <qikti255enumfjodrfqi09in3ma5jl1kqm@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> >The only thing that causes a slice is an open clubface at impact.
> >Lots of players can hit the ball straight while lagging back. Even
> >you have done it, or at least have claimed to do it before.
>
> Slice is caused by the clubhead passing across the back of the ball
> from out-to-in. Golfers who cannot stop doing that compensates for
> that persistent fault by closing the clubface before impact with
> hands-- and of course that timing is always erratic. They play the
> treeline. No hope of ever breaking 10 handicap or so.
You are simply incorrect, as usual.
A slice occurs any time the club *face* is not perpendicular to the
club's *path*. For many this occurs when they swing from out to in with
the clubface being kept approximately perpendicular to the target line
at the moment of impact. For quite a few others it occurs when the face
is perpendicular to a line to the right of the target line, but the path
of the club is towards the target.
That you don't understand these facts shows just how shallow your
knowledge of the golf swing really is.
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 09:23:58
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 16:54:57 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> SKIPPER wrote:
> >> > The_Professor wrote:
> >> > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> >> > > we think arm swing hard.
> >> >
> >> > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> >> > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> >> > hard as I can.
> >> >
> >>
> >> More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
> >> guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
> >> stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
> >
> >No.
> >
> >On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
> >before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
> >
> >On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
> >move.
> >
> >with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
> >hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
> >the shot.
>
> Yep, IF you have moved up to pivot around your front leg.
>
> If you have lagged back and then "swing hard" you will slice it across
> two fairways.
>
> Larry
I saw a guy do that a couple of weeks ago. I was on the 9th tee and the
guy was on the first tee. I was about 180 in front of him (his
perspective) and about 150 yards to the right of him (his perspective)
and he almost beaned me with his drive...as I recall, one of his
buddies said "nice shot skippy"...or something like that!)
;^)
...the event actually did happen, BTW!
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 17:07:40
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> Your point is obviously a great practice procedure--and perhaps it could
> work for this particular problem. I have a problem doing that or teaching
> that procedure for this issue, though, because it is SO EASY to overcontrol
> easy swings and do something contrived instead of flowing and free
I can take a a lob wedge and make what I call a full gravity powered
swing. That basically means that I add nothing (or very little) to it.
I simply let the heavy head drop and I make my body move in concert
with it's speed. This drill does seem to help my wedge through middle
iron play quite a bit and I can also use this swing on the course with
wedges to hit short lobs. When I'm dialed in it's pretty easy to repeat
the given distances. But I have not been able (yet) to get this drill
to work as well as I'd like with longer clubs like hybrids and the
driver???
|
| | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 20:26:01
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1160438860.497316.78180@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Your point is obviously a great practice procedure--and perhaps it could
>> work for this particular problem. I have a problem doing that or
>> teaching
>> that procedure for this issue, though, because it is SO EASY to
>> overcontrol
>> easy swings and do something contrived instead of flowing and free
>
> I can take a a lob wedge and make what I call a full gravity powered
> swing. That basically means that I add nothing (or very little) to it.
> I simply let the heavy head drop and I make my body move in concert
> with it's speed. This drill does seem to help my wedge through middle
> iron play quite a bit and I can also use this swing on the course with
> wedges to hit short lobs. When I'm dialed in it's pretty easy to repeat
> the given distances. But I have not been able (yet) to get this drill
> to work as well as I'd like with longer clubs like hybrids and the
> driver???
The drill I advocate doesn't use gravity alone by a long shot. A practice
swing is exuberant and athletic, not a collapse.
So when you get a back and forth continuous swing with some energy in it
that really throws the club and use THAT swing when you sneak up on a
whiffle ball or a teed up ball, that will help you bridge the gap between no
ball at all and playing conditions perhaps faster than any other drill I can
imagine.
The object of the drill is to condition you so that you become thoughtless
and athletic, exuberant. When you actually get to hitting balls and
playing, the habit of a good swing should no longer have to deal with
compensatory or involuntary changes to the MOTION you use when you swing
without a ball and with exuberance. It is to change you from cognitive
controlling to unconscious trust and exuberance.
And it is not an easy swing at all all the time: you can swing out of your
socks- you should in many circumstances...- and the only control you need is
your aim, your balance/stability (not moving your swing center--i.e.,
remaining "where you are"), and measuring PREswing so that your
uncompensated movements WILL make the club go where the ball is, to within
1/4" of clubface center of percussion on the ball.
That is why pros practice for hours a day, IMO.
That is their day job. So if they have to do it, how do we mortals get by?
With difficulty.
>
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 07:35:23
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
dsc wrote:
> >Never see a
> > guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper" though,
> > but no one who is really any good.
>
> There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
He generates a lot of clubhead speed, but swings "hard"? I guess you
would have to ask him if he swings as hard as he can (like hackers like
me get to doing) or looks more for a swing he can control...which is a
lot more of a swing than I can do...but for him?
|
| |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 05:57:24
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 9, 6:00 am, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>When this idea reappeared here I was reminded specifically of how beneficial
> it is to make CONTINUOUS back and forth HALF-swings a few inches above a
> teed ball or a whiffle ball WITH THE MOTION, THE PRACTICE SWING AND EASY
> FEELINGS that we feel are our best swing, and then without any break in the
> rhythm or motion of any kind, on the next swing simply to lower your body to
> where THAT EXACT SAME MOTION allows the club to go through the ball place.
> If you can't bridge the gap doing it this way, you aren't paying attention.
> Gradually working with small and easy but CONTINUOUS motions from air to
> whiffle ball is actually the best way.
I agree that rehearsing the move with a practice swing or waggle is
helpful.
I do a lot of rehearsals where I'm trying to feel the turn of the body
causing
the club to swing, and the right wrist keeping it's set.
However, I don't see the reason for whiffle balls and particular not
for using
a tee. Seems counter-productive. My pro has me hitting a lot of
chips and small pitches, but on the ground, not a tee. And he has me
paying a lot of attention to the divot - that there is one, and that it
starts
on the target side of the ball.
One drill he has me do with a tee is to stick it in the ground a couple
inches
in front (on the target side) of the ball. My goal is to pop the tee
out of the
ground.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:13:00
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1160398644.669030.199310@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree that rehearsing the move with a practice swing or waggle is
> helpful.
> I do a lot of rehearsals where I'm trying to feel the turn of the body
> causing
> the club to swing, and the right wrist keeping it's set.
>
> However, I don't see the reason for whiffle balls and particular not
> for using
> a tee. Seems counter-productive. My pro has me hitting a lot of
> chips and small pitches, but on the ground, not a tee. And he has me
> paying a lot of attention to the divot - that there is one, and that it
> starts
> on the target side of the ball.
>
> One drill he has me do with a tee is to stick it in the ground a couple
> inches
> in front (on the target side) of the ball. My goal is to pop the tee
> out of the
> ground.
>
The difficulty that Dave had was not 'hitting the ball,' but hitting it with
his PRACTICE swing. He could not use his natural uncontrived good swing for
hitting golf balls: "Ball-bound" is one term describing the glitch people
experience between just swinging and then hitting the ball with the same
motion; it is a psychological barrier expressed by two well known examples:
Charles Barclay and Hank Haney: everyone in golf MUST by now have seen the
incredible stop/start in Barclay's swing, and Haney openly speaks about
having the yips with his driver.
It is because of the presence of a ball that we feel we need to hit.
So the teed ball or the whiffle ball removes some or all of the "fear of
what will happen" that paralyzes us SUBconsciously into other things.
David Lee's drills in the two Gravity Golf programs are ALL about overcoming
this barrier - i.e., the difference between unconciously swinging with
nothing on your mind except direction and intention, vs. manipulating the
club mid-swing in order to 'guide it proprioceptionally' to the ball with
overcontrol and fear.
Overcoming fear is perhaps THE major hurdle for adult beginners and advanced
(Barclay is no mean athlete, nor is Haney...) who wrestle with such issues.
Your point is obviously a great practice procedure--and perhaps it could
work for this particular problem. I have a problem doing that or teaching
that procedure for this issue, though, because it is SO EASY to overcontrol
easy swings and do something contrived instead of flowing and free unless
the instant before the hit-the-ball one the swing is felt and is observable
by someone (even self) to see if the real one DOES DIFFER IN ANY WAY
WHATSOEVER with the one just previous when it was a dry air-swing.
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 21:48:25
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 7, 6:06 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
>Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
> ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I recall
> an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
> camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
> discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to Real
> Swing Question).
>
> I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
> figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
> abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more time.
Good luck with your quest. I've seen some improvement, but I'm still
not where I want to be. The funny thing is, that I've been better at
this in the past than I am now, so I can see that it is possible to
backslide again.
But what the heck, what else am I going to do with my time? Just
continuing on playing with the same old crappy swing is a waste
of time, in my opinion. I might as well try to get better.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 07:00:03
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1160369305.605826.94730@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Oct 7, 6:06 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>>Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
>> ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I
>> recall
>> an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
>> camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
>> discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to
>> Real
>> Swing Question).
>>
>> I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
>> figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
>> abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more
>> time.
>
> Good luck with your quest. I've seen some improvement, but I'm still
> not where I want to be. The funny thing is, that I've been better at
> this in the past than I am now, so I can see that it is possible to
> backslide again.
>
> But what the heck, what else am I going to do with my time? Just
> continuing on playing with the same old crappy swing is a waste
> of time, in my opinion. I might as well try to get better.
>
When this idea reappeared here I was reminded specifically of how beneficial
it is to make CONTINUOUS back and forth HALF-swings a few inches above a
teed ball or a whiffle ball WITH THE MOTION, THE PRACTICE SWING AND EASY
FEELINGS that we feel are our best swing, and then without any break in the
rhythm or motion of any kind, on the next swing simply to lower your body to
where THAT EXACT SAME MOTION allows the club to go through the ball place.
If you can't bridge the gap doing it this way, you aren't paying attention.
Gradually working with small and easy but CONTINUOUS motions from air to
whiffle ball is actually the best way.
George Hibbard
www.perfectimpact.com
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 18:15:19
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
>Never see a
> guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper" though,
> but no one who is really any good.
There is this one guy... swings hard as hell... name's Tiger Woods... :)
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 10:21:58
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
dsc wrote:
> > I fully disagree...lol. Practice on mats! You can hit a lot more
> > balls in less time. No cleaning of clubs, therefore getting more time
> > to think about your swing thoughts.
>
> Given the choice, I'll opt for natural grass and turf over mats every
> time. The reason is the club can bounce off a mat (fat shot) and you
> can still hit the ball solidly. The same can happen off realy hard pan.
> But if you take that swing to nice fairway you will lay the sod over a
> whole lot of shots. So when you practice from mats be aware of this
> factoid.
Maybe because I hit a lot of mat balls I think I can tell a bad shot,
that I would go against that. I still definitely hit a lot of shots of
the mat that I tell myself are not spot-on.
CJ
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 10:18:29
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> <curtjester@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:1160242202.887217.65040@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> >
> >> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> >> specifically
> >> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >>
> >> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> >> such
> >> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
> >> lag
> >> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> >> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >> fundamentals are improved.
> >>
> >> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >> comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> dave
> >
> > I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
> > with the speed of the takeaway. Weight shift and turn are very
> > important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
> > wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
> > except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
> > and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
> > I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
> > basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
> > IMO.
> >
> > CJ
>
> Lag is a word used to identify the fact that the hands lead the club: and
> ideally from a 90 degree angle, whenever that IS produced. But lag itself
> is maintained by constant forward pressure; to waste or leak that, to use up
> the mechanical advantage of the wristcock prematurely--these lose lag.
> Hence the swing collapses and an artificial and powerless substitute to move
> the club must be contrived. Velocity is achieved most efficiently by a
> constant pressure that increases it gradually. (which in microseconds can
> be very fast).
>
>
Hey George, nice to see you around again. I agree with your velocity
statement. I am not so sure about the forward pressure, at least for
me. I like to think of my cocked wrists as the center of my swing for
an arc, and have plenty of pressure stored up by the time I get to the
top. All I know is there is so much pressure, I don't think I could
release it prematurely very easily.
CJ
CJ
>
>
> >
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 10:12:19
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2006 11:56:26 -0700, curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>
> >Mike Dalecki wrote:
> >> curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
> >>
> >> > Dave Lee wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> >> >>with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >> >>
> >> >>The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> >> >>as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >> >>someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> >> >>is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> >> >>require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >> >>difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >> >>fundamentals are improved.
> >> >>
> >> >>From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >> >>comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >> >>
> >> >>Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> >>dave
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
> >> > with the speed of the takeaway.
> >>
> >> I don't see this as true at all, CJ. You can start a swing from the top
> >> from a static position; what matters is when the lag--the stored energy
> >> in the cocked wrists--is released.
> >>
> >I don't think a swing at the top with your wrists cocked will have the
> >same coil as having wrists coiling in motion. When you are in motion
> >going to the back and decide to curtail that motion, the momentum will
> >cause further tensioning in the wrists and arms IMO. I agree that the
> >releasing is of utmost importance, but the storing is also very
> >important. And the releasing is not just automatic, it takes some
> >wherewithal to incorporate the how and when it to get the sought after
> >maximized efficiency.
> >
> >
> >> If you're saying that the slowing of the backswing (takeaway) at the top
> >> causes the wrists to cock, as the momentum of the arms slows and the
> >> continued momentum of the club causes the wrists to cock, well, that's
> >> probably one way to do it.
> >>
> >The wrists cock when you tell it to, immediate, early, or late. The
> >slowing you allude to will further tense the muscles.
>
> Admittedly a few swing like that-- but the overwhelming majority do
> and did not. Just watch a real-time video of Bobby Jones, Sam Snead,
> Ben Hogan, Moe Norman and a zillion others-- their backswings were
> fairly fast because they wanted the momentum of the swinging club to
> set their wrists. They SWUNG it up and then rhythmically swung it
> down.
>
> That is also what David Leadbetter's SwingSetter encourages. If you
> try to consciously set your wrists you won't be able to make it
> 'click' during the backswing.
>
> Larry
That's why I am leary of such an object. It works for David
Leadbetter's swing, probably. I think my swing is much different than
most, and depends more on wrist control throughout. I saw one of your
other posts, and thought about the Whippy. I think it would work for
my swing, and wondered why you thought it would work for an arm swing?
CJ
> >
> >> The wrist-cock can be achieved very early--my pro does that.
> >>
> >I agree with your pro.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > Weight shift and turn are very
> >> > important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
> >> > wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
> >> > except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
> >> > and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
> >> > I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
> >> > basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
> >> > IMO.
> >> >
> >> > CJ
> >>
> >> It may be that the feeling is different for different people.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >I think it's different for me on practially every swing. I wish it
> >wasn't...-).
> >
> >CJ
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
> >> RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
> >> RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 08:08:41
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 7, 5:29 pm, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 3:04 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
>
> > Buy a Whippy TempoMaster middle iron and learn to hit that straight.
> > There are great drills in the brochure and tape that come with it. Do
> > those patiently and you won't need lessons.Larry,
>
> The Whippy is probably a great tool, but if practicing with it makes
> me end up with a swing like yours, I'll pass. I suck enough already.
I don't normally apologize for anything said here, but I have to admit
this
was rude. Sorry. Tell you what, Larry, I am going to be in
San Diego the weekend of 11/4-5. I won't have time for a round of
golf, but I'm bringing my Sony VX2000 camcorder, and would love
to tape your current swing for RSG. We could meet at a range,
hit a few shots, maybe play around with your Whippy Tempomaster,
and clear the air about a few things. What do you say?
|
| |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 07:18:07
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> > > Gonna give this one more try - but ...
> >
> > One more try probably isn't enough if you'e been playing a long time.
> > It takes a lof of effort to make this change. It's important that you
> > experience how this swing feels a least once even if purely by accident
> > or chance. Once you know what it feels like then you can get serious
> > about re-creating it with some consistency.
> >
>
> You would think that a couple million practice swings 'doing it right - or
> at least better' would be enough :-)
No kidding... :)
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:42:00
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> I've spent a bunch of time with those types of concepts. I'm not saying that
> they are wrong, but I am not able to translate them into useful progress.
> Whiffle balls in particular are golf balls as far as my conscious and
> subconscious are concerned. I've tried hitting tennis balls (have no idea
> what a good hit would result in and you can't possible miss something that
> big) - no change.
I'm not a big believer in any kind of plastic balls. But for some
people an empty tee might be beneficial.
>
> Gonna give this one more try - but ...
One more try probably isn't enough if you'e been playing a long time.
It takes a lof of effort to make this change. It's important that you
experience how this swing feels a least once even if purely by accident
or chance. Once you know what it feels like then you can get serious
about re-creating it with some consistency.
|
| | |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 11:15:29
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote in message
news:1160278920.419467.33620@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I've spent a bunch of time with those types of concepts. I'm not saying
that
> > they are wrong, but I am not able to translate them into useful
progress.
> > Whiffle balls in particular are golf balls as far as my conscious and
> > subconscious are concerned. I've tried hitting tennis balls (have no
idea
> > what a good hit would result in and you can't possible miss something
that
> > big) - no change.
>
> I'm not a big believer in any kind of plastic balls. But for some
> people an empty tee might be beneficial.
>
> >
> > Gonna give this one more try - but ...
>
> One more try probably isn't enough if you'e been playing a long time.
> It takes a lof of effort to make this change. It's important that you
> experience how this swing feels a least once even if purely by accident
> or chance. Once you know what it feels like then you can get serious
> about re-creating it with some consistency.
>
You would think that a couple million practice swings 'doing it right - or
at least better' would be enough :-)
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 07:41:14
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:l55Wg.8697$o71.7332@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote in message
> news:1160278920.419467.33620@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I've spent a bunch of time with those types of concepts. I'm not saying
> that
>> > they are wrong, but I am not able to translate them into useful
> progress.
>> > Whiffle balls in particular are golf balls as far as my conscious and
>> > subconscious are concerned. I've tried hitting tennis balls (have no
> idea
>> > what a good hit would result in and you can't possible miss something
> that
>> > big) - no change.
>>
>> I'm not a big believer in any kind of plastic balls. But for some
>> people an empty tee might be beneficial.
>>
>> >
>> > Gonna give this one more try - but ...
>>
>> One more try probably isn't enough if you'e been playing a long time.
>> It takes a lof of effort to make this change. It's important that you
>> experience how this swing feels a least once even if purely by accident
>> or chance. Once you know what it feels like then you can get serious
>> about re-creating it with some consistency.
>>
>
> You would think that a couple million practice swings 'doing it right - or
> at least better' would be enough :-)
>
> dave
>
Again, it is not the swing; it involves changing the state of mind. By
swinging at NOTHING except with a plastic ball nearby, you approach the
threshhold where fear and controlling the club kicks in.
You might profit from having ANYONE (including a child who knows nothing
about golf) to watch your practice swing - just watch. Then when you move
that over to where a ball sits and do the 'same thing' to ask the child or
observer if it looked the same or did you do diffent. I used to
characterize a bad putting stroke with the quip from the famous commercial
for Shake and Bake, "Yew hailped!" Well, anyone ELSE can see if "yew
hailped!" or not. So if you do help it, separate yourself as necessary from
the plastic ball a couple more inches until you CAN SWING with your PS when
a ball is in the vicinity. From there it is simply a matter of
incrementally closing in on where it is. If you leap from HERE to THERE you
won't locate your own psychological root cause of the disconnect. MAKE THE
SWING SO SMALL AND EASY AS IT TAKES = even if it is only a "20 yard chip".
DO SOMETHING to first establish a free uncontrolled motion, and when you
HAVE DECIDED TO SWING THAT WAY, use THAT SWING AND MENTAL STATE as you take
yourself to where a ball is sitting and repeat the motion. If you can't
swing the same to hit the ball, can you swing the same a couple inches over
the TOP of the ball?
If you don't win that battle, you never will experience the real joy of
exuberance and freedom that IS the best golf has to offer.
>
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:37:27
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
> it with your PS. It goes like this.
Definitely...
>
> Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the grass
> a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
> one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you walked
> two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the first
> ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
> of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
> do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
> is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control and
> trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
> information at this point!!!!!
Yes.. you need to forget (temporarily) all about where the ball goes
and simply concentrate on making that same smooth swing you make when
the ball isn't there. Go to the range... make two or three practice
swings near a teed up ball. Then without pause step closer and swing
through the tee ball.... rinse and repeat. This technique really works
well (and quickly) at smoothing out the putting stroke too.
>
> You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
> screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
> swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more bent
> over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
> weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
>
> The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a point
> where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
> swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the ball...not
> trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball where
> your swing is.
>
Very good advice. Add to it that you must not add force to it. Let the
club head speed just happen... and it will.
For the first time ever I managed to play one complete round this year
where I did not force the swing or try to over power the ball. I just
swung the club easy (at least it felt easy). I hit the driver longer
and straghter than I ever have and recoreded an effortless and ho-hum
75 in the process. It was as easy a falling ou of bed. But for me it is
a constant struggle to not fall back into the old habbit of trying to
knock the snot out of the ball. I leaned (incorrectly) to play that
way. I haven't yet managed to get through another complete round
without failing at this at least a few times. If I ever get this down I
expect golf wil be a lot more fun. Furthermore, my effortless swing
doesn't irritate my lower back like the effort swing does.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:56:48
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 20:37:27 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>
>> Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
>> it with your PS. It goes like this.
>
>Definitely...
>
>>
>> Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the grass
>> a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
>> one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you walked
>> two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the first
>> ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
>> of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
>> do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
>> is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control and
>> trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
>> information at this point!!!!!
>
>Yes.. you need to forget (temporarily) all about where the ball goes
>and simply concentrate on making that same smooth swing you make when
>the ball isn't there. Go to the range... make two or three practice
>swings near a teed up ball. Then without pause step closer and swing
>through the tee ball.... rinse and repeat. This technique really works
>well (and quickly) at smoothing out the putting stroke too.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
>> screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
>> swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more bent
>> over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
>> weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
>>
>> The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a point
>> where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
>> swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the ball...not
>> trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball where
>> your swing is.
>>
>
>Very good advice. Add to it that you must not add force to it. Let the
>club head speed just happen... and it will.
>
>For the first time ever I managed to play one complete round this year
>where I did not force the swing or try to over power the ball. I just
>swung the club easy (at least it felt easy). I hit the driver longer
>and straghter than I ever have and recoreded an effortless and ho-hum
>75 in the process. It was as easy a falling ou of bed. But for me it is
> a constant struggle to not fall back into the old habbit of trying to
>knock the snot out of the ball. I leaned (incorrectly) to play that
>way. I haven't yet managed to get through another complete round
>without failing at this at least a few times. If I ever get this down I
>expect golf wil be a lot more fun. Furthermore, my effortless swing
>doesn't irritate my lower back like the effort swing does.
I suspect that most here are salivating for more "lag" when their real
problem is they are hitting while their weight is still on their back
leg--pivoting around that and of course decelerating before impact.
Lag and release means nothing from that position-- you simply hit it
sideways further! Most use hand action to align the clubhead.
If you want more lag and a delayed release, effortless distance, you
must learn to make the transition move, you MUST pivot around your
front leg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
This is exaggerated-- but it is a valid rehearsal-- as is the
horizontal "baseball" swing in slow motion.
Larry
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:22:22
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> I fully disagree...lol. Practice on mats! You can hit a lot more
> balls in less time. No cleaning of clubs, therefore getting more time
> to think about your swing thoughts.
Given the choice, I'll opt for natural grass and turf over mats every
time. The reason is the club can bounce off a mat (fat shot) and you
can still hit the ball solidly. The same can happen off realy hard pan.
But if you take that swing to nice fairway you will lay the sod over a
whole lot of shots. So when you practice from mats be aware of this
factoid.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:19:17
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> Buy a Whippy TempoMaster middle iron and learn to hit that straight.
> There are great drills in the brochure and tape that come with it. Do
> those patiently and you won't need lessons.
I'll give you this. If you can hit a whippy long and with a hint of a
draw... you proably don't need lessons. I'm not sure you can learn to
do that without lessons though... especially if you have been playing
for a while already.
|
| | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:51:21
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 20:19:17 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>
>> Buy a Whippy TempoMaster middle iron and learn to hit that straight.
>> There are great drills in the brochure and tape that come with it. Do
>> those patiently and you won't need lessons.
>
>I'll give you this. If you can hit a whippy long and with a hint of a
>draw... you proably don't need lessons. I'm not sure you can learn to
>do that without lessons though... especially if you have been playing
>for a while already.
No doubt. Dr. Melvin (Whippy inventor) modestly says that he went
from 20+ handicap for 20+ years to present scratch or so in only a few
years-- using his own Whippy training clubs and of course taking
lessons from Dr. Mann (a different guy than SLAP). He says Dr. Mann
said he was the only late beginner student in his entire teaching
experience who was able to learn the transition move- who was able to
groove a correct downswing that begins with the lateral hip shift
toward the target.
I work on that all the time-- and on the course usually do several
slow motion "baseball" swings before hitting-- per the advice of Jim
Flick. Even though I trust my subconscious to swing toward the
target, I found that it was necessary for me to rehearse this move--
otherwise I sometimes lagged back and decelerated, pivoting around my
back leg instead of my front leg as I do in this video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
Larry
|
| | |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 14:39:52
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 20:19:17 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>I'll give you this. If you can hit a whippy long and with a hint of a
>draw... you proably don't need lessons.
If I had a great full screen - I'd still need lessons.
|
| | | |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 15:06:21
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 14:39:52 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>>I'll give you this. If you can hit a whippy long and with a hint of a
>>draw... you proably don't need lessons.
>
>If I had a great full screen - I'd still need lessons.
Full swing.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 15:29:28
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 7, 3:04 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote:
> Buy a Whippy TempoMaster middle iron and learn to hit that straight.
> There are great drills in the brochure and tape that come with it. Do
> those patiently and you won't need lessons.
Larry,
The Whippy is probably a great tool, but if practicing with it makes
me end up with a swing like yours, I'll pass. I suck enough already.
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 13:08:10
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Birdie Bill wrote:
> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >
> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> > fundamentals are improved.
>
> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
> improve lag
> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
> ones.
> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
> am working
> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
> back
> on old habits is a persistent problem.
>
> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
> position
> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
> in my right wrist.
>
> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
>
> Never practice on mats!
I fully disagree...lol. Practice on mats! You can hit a lot more
balls in less time. No cleaning of clubs, therefore getting more time
to think about your swing thoughts.
CJ
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 12:04:17
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>
> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> fundamentals are improved.
I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
improve lag
you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
ones.
But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
am working
on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
back
on old habits is a persistent problem.
In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
position
where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
in my right wrist.
My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
Never practice on mats!
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 23:06:32
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1160247857.645903.219550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
specifically
> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >
> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
such
> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
lag
> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> > fundamentals are improved.
>
> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
> improve lag
> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
> ones.
> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
> am working
> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
> back
> on old habits is a persistent problem.
>
> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
> position
> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
> in my right wrist.
>
> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
>
> Never practice on mats!
>
Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I recall
an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to Real
Swing Question).
I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more time.
dave
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:32:09
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:YpWVg.6288$Y24.5505@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1160247857.645903.219550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> specifically
>> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>> >
>> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> such
>> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
> lag
>> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement
>> > will
>> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> > fundamentals are improved.
>>
>> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
>> improve lag
>> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
>> ones.
>> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
>> am working
>> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
>> back
>> on old habits is a persistent problem.
>>
>> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
>> position
>> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
>> in my right wrist.
>>
>> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
>> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
>> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
>>
>> Never practice on mats!
>>
>
> Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
> ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I
> recall
> an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
> camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
> discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to
> Real
> Swing Question).
>
> I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
> figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
> abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more
> time.
>
> dave
>
>
Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
it with your PS. It goes like this.
Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the grass
a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you walked
two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the first
ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control and
trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
information at this point!!!!!
You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more bent
over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a point
where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the ball...not
trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball where
your swing is.
It is a battle with your mind, not your body.
And you can win it.
Trust. Mindless. NO controlling permitted. Relaxed, balanced, carefree.
Work from there.
Only after achieving success with easy shots with a PW doing part swings as
long as they are mindless - then you can go to the course with some tees and
your PW, same idea. The trajectory of the ball is NOT to be considered
until some kind of decent impact is found by adjustments.
WHEN YOU DO have some confidence, it isn't a big deal to make the small
adjustments in alignment, grip or whatever -- ball position mid body is a
good place to start - to get a handle on it.
Sometimes use a driver with very energetic swings also. Not just easy
swings, because you will tend unconsciously to be overcontrolling your club.
Mirror work for practicing your practice swing: then mindless "I don't care"
swings near balls that you can walk closer to to hit....
your enemy is your fear about the ball behaving badly. So whiffle balls
feed back nothing to embarrass you. This is how kids learn: they don't
care. AFTER getting results, they start to find the ball. But if they
don't take lessons except "hit home runs, honey!", they learn how to use
their practice swing. The damage is done when they get detail conscious.
So become childlike. Mindless; lose control ("to get control...") and TAKE
ENOUGH TIME TO GIVE THE PROCESS A CHANCE TO WORK.
George Hibbard
www.perfectimpact.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:40:53
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 20:32:09 -0400, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>
>"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>news:YpWVg.6288$Y24.5505@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1160247857.645903.219550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>>> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
>> specifically
>>> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>> >
>>> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
>> such
>>> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
>> lag
>>> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement
>>> > will
>>> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>> > fundamentals are improved.
>>>
>>> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
>>> improve lag
>>> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
>>> ones.
>>> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
>>> am working
>>> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
>>> back
>>> on old habits is a persistent problem.
>>>
>>> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
>>> position
>>> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
>>> in my right wrist.
>>>
>>> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
>>> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
>>> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
>>>
>>> Never practice on mats!
>>>
>>
>> Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
>> ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I
>> recall
>> an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
>> camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
>> discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to
>> Real
>> Swing Question).
>>
>> I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
>> figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
>> abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more
>> time.
>>
>> dave
>>
>>
>
>Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
>it with your PS. It goes like this.
>
>Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the grass
>a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
>one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you walked
>two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the first
>ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
>of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
>do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
>is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control and
>trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
>information at this point!!!!!
>
>You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
>screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
>swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more bent
>over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
>weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
>
>The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a point
>where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
>swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the ball...not
>trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball where
>your swing is.
>
>It is a battle with your mind, not your body.
>
>And you can win it.
>
>Trust. Mindless. NO controlling permitted. Relaxed, balanced, carefree.
>
>Work from there.
>
>Only after achieving success with easy shots with a PW doing part swings as
>long as they are mindless - then you can go to the course with some tees and
>your PW, same idea. The trajectory of the ball is NOT to be considered
>until some kind of decent impact is found by adjustments.
>
>WHEN YOU DO have some confidence, it isn't a big deal to make the small
>adjustments in alignment, grip or whatever -- ball position mid body is a
>good place to start - to get a handle on it.
>
>Sometimes use a driver with very energetic swings also. Not just easy
>swings, because you will tend unconsciously to be overcontrolling your club.
>
>Mirror work for practicing your practice swing: then mindless "I don't care"
>swings near balls that you can walk closer to to hit....
>
>your enemy is your fear about the ball behaving badly. So whiffle balls
>feed back nothing to embarrass you. This is how kids learn: they don't
>care. AFTER getting results, they start to find the ball. But if they
>don't take lessons except "hit home runs, honey!", they learn how to use
>their practice swing. The damage is done when they get detail conscious.
>So become childlike. Mindless; lose control ("to get control...") and TAKE
>ENOUGH TIME TO GIVE THE PROCESS A CHANCE TO WORK.
>
>George Hibbard
>www.perfectimpact.com
Hi George,
I few months ago I went back to Gary Sowinski and also talked to Gene
Littler and several retired touring pros who play our course
regularly. I asked them what they think about as they swing. I
wanted to learn their particular individual "swing thought." The
consensus of their approach to the golf swing is essentially NOTHING
mechanical. They assign little importance to the physical, to
achieving particular positions, etc. and everything to the mental
side, to the vision of the swing to be made and the ball flight to be
produced.
Gary starts every student by having him (or her) hit balls with his
eyes closed. He first has them setup with a decent grip and stance,
then has them really focus on the target-- exactly as we would really
concentrate on the target if we were going to throw a ball there. Then
he has them swing with eyes closed-- and they (I was) unfailingly
amazed feel the little click of contact and see a perfect ball flight
toward the target. He demonstrates that our subconscious mind is
actually a better golfer than we are-- it just swings without hand
action or other bogus interference-- and it does not decelerate--
because it keeps everything moving toward that target.
His (Ernest Jones) lessons work best with total beginners-- with
student golfers who do not need to "unlearn" bad habits before they
can relax and just swing centrifugally toward the target.
That works so well it is almost uncanny. When we learn to really
turn responsibility over to our subconscious, just look a the target,
envision the ball flight, and then relax and swing with NO attention
to swing details, it will nearly always happen.
I really wish I had stayed with his teaching when I started golf 5
years ago, never experimented with SLAP and video lessons and much
else. Today with decent putting my handicap would be in the very low
single digits--WITHOUT need to beat balls on the range.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:50:38
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <nh1li2dg6ai4mb36828o1j88q4679bs0f1@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Oct 2006 20:32:09 -0400, "George Hibbard"
> <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >news:YpWVg.6288$Y24.5505@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >>
> >> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1160247857.645903.219550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> >>> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> >> specifically
> >>> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >>> >
> >>> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> >> such
> >>> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >>> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
> >> lag
> >>> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement
> >>> > will
> >>> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >>> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >>> > fundamentals are improved.
> >>>
> >>> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
> >>> improve lag
> >>> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
> >>> ones.
> >>> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
> >>> am working
> >>> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
> >>> back
> >>> on old habits is a persistent problem.
> >>>
> >>> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
> >>> position
> >>> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
> >>> in my right wrist.
> >>>
> >>> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
> >>> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
> >>> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
> >>>
> >>> Never practice on mats!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are describing
> >> ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I
> >> recall
> >> an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some interesting
> >> camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
> >> discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to
> >> Real
> >> Swing Question).
> >>
> >> I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
> >> figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
> >> abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more
> >> time.
> >>
> >> dave
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
> >it with your PS. It goes like this.
> >
> >Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the grass
> >a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
> >one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you walked
> >two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the first
> >ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
> >of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
> >do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
> >is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control and
> >trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
> >information at this point!!!!!
> >
> >You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
> >screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
> >swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more bent
> >over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
> >weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
> >
> >The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a point
> >where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
> >swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the ball...not
> >trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball where
> >your swing is.
> >
> >It is a battle with your mind, not your body.
> >
> >And you can win it.
> >
> >Trust. Mindless. NO controlling permitted. Relaxed, balanced, carefree.
> >
> >Work from there.
> >
> >Only after achieving success with easy shots with a PW doing part swings as
> >long as they are mindless - then you can go to the course with some tees and
> >your PW, same idea. The trajectory of the ball is NOT to be considered
> >until some kind of decent impact is found by adjustments.
> >
> >WHEN YOU DO have some confidence, it isn't a big deal to make the small
> >adjustments in alignment, grip or whatever -- ball position mid body is a
> >good place to start - to get a handle on it.
> >
> >Sometimes use a driver with very energetic swings also. Not just easy
> >swings, because you will tend unconsciously to be overcontrolling your club.
> >
> >Mirror work for practicing your practice swing: then mindless "I don't care"
> >swings near balls that you can walk closer to to hit....
> >
> >your enemy is your fear about the ball behaving badly. So whiffle balls
> >feed back nothing to embarrass you. This is how kids learn: they don't
> >care. AFTER getting results, they start to find the ball. But if they
> >don't take lessons except "hit home runs, honey!", they learn how to use
> >their practice swing. The damage is done when they get detail conscious.
> >So become childlike. Mindless; lose control ("to get control...") and TAKE
> >ENOUGH TIME TO GIVE THE PROCESS A CHANCE TO WORK.
> >
> >George Hibbard
> >www.perfectimpact.com
>
> Hi George,
>
> I few months ago I went back to Gary Sowinski and also talked to Gene
> Littler and several retired touring pros who play our course
> regularly. I asked them what they think about as they swing. I
> wanted to learn their particular individual "swing thought." The
> consensus of their approach to the golf swing is essentially NOTHING
> mechanical. They assign little importance to the physical, to
> achieving particular positions, etc. and everything to the mental
> side, to the vision of the swing to be made and the ball flight to be
> produced.
>
> Gary starts every student by having him (or her) hit balls with his
> eyes closed. He first has them setup with a decent grip and stance,
> then has them really focus on the target-- exactly as we would really
> concentrate on the target if we were going to throw a ball there. Then
> he has them swing with eyes closed-- and they (I was) unfailingly
> amazed feel the little click of contact and see a perfect ball flight
> toward the target. He demonstrates that our subconscious mind is
> actually a better golfer than we are-- it just swings without hand
> action or other bogus interference-- and it does not decelerate--
> because it keeps everything moving toward that target.
>
> His (Ernest Jones) lessons work best with total beginners-- with
> student golfers who do not need to "unlearn" bad habits before they
> can relax and just swing centrifugally toward the target.
>
> That works so well it is almost uncanny. When we learn to really
> turn responsibility over to our subconscious, just look a the target,
> envision the ball flight, and then relax and swing with NO attention
> to swing details, it will nearly always happen.
>
> I really wish I had stayed with his teaching when I started golf 5
> years ago, never experimented with SLAP and video lessons and much
> else. Today with decent putting my handicap would be in the very low
> single digits--WITHOUT need to beat balls on the range.
>
> Larry
Gee..
Last year, you were telling us how SLAP was definitely the way to go and
it was going to get your handicap down to near scratch...
|
| | | | |
Date: 08 Oct 2006 01:20:55
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:aGXVg.19467$vi3.18697@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:YpWVg.6288$Y24.5505@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1160247857.645903.219550@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> >> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> > specifically
> >> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >> >
> >> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> > such
> >> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But
for
> >> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever
your
> > lag
> >> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement
> >> > will
> >> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >> > fundamentals are improved.
> >>
> >> I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
> >> improve lag
> >> you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
> >> ones.
> >> But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
> >> am working
> >> on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
> >> back
> >> on old habits is a persistent problem.
> >>
> >> In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
> >> position
> >> where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
> >> in my right wrist.
> >>
> >> My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
> >> drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
> >> off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
> >>
> >> Never practice on mats!
> >>
> >
> > Bill, I was just about to head down the exact road that you are
describing
> > ('unlearning' effort, drills, start with partial SW/LW shots). But I
> > recall
> > an aborted exercise from 12-18 months back. It came from some
interesting
> > camcorder comparisons between my practice swing and real swing. This was
> > discussed briefly here starting on 7/31/05 (Subject: Practice Swing to
> > Real
> > Swing Question).
> >
> > I've got decent lag in my practice swing and spent some time trying to
> > figure out how to hit the ball with my practice swing. I ultimately
> > abandoned that effort. But I think I'll resurrect this effort one more
> > time.
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> Learning to NOT hit a ball with your practice swing is how to learn TO hit
> it with your PS. It goes like this.
>
> Get some whiffle balls. Stand too far away from a few teed up in the
grass
> a bit--far enough from your feet, at first, so you can NOT hit the first
> one. Make practice swings in the area of the ball, such that if you
walked
> two inches closer, your wild swing COULD be brought to appx. where the
first
> ball sits. Whether when you DO walk closer to see if you can get the path
> of your swing to go through that ball place you actually hit it, or if you
> do, that you hit it squarely, or even then whether it goes straight or not
> is totally irrelevant. What you need to be doing is to abandon control
and
> trust the swing to see what happens with it. you are in search of
> information at this point!!!!!
>
> You'll find that as long as you trust the mindless swing, IT won't get
> screwed up. From there to hitting good shots is about adjustments, not
> swing changes per se. Standing closer, standing taller, standing more
bent
> over, standing more tilted, holding the club a hair stronger grip or
> weaker -- these are adjustments - NOT swing changes.
>
> The secret is to not care what happens to the ball; second, to reach a
point
> where you can make decent contact with the ball by measuring to where your
> swing DOES put the club and walking to that same distance to the
ball...not
> trying to put the swing where the ball is, but trying to put the ball
where
> your swing is.
>
> It is a battle with your mind, not your body.
>
> And you can win it.
>
> Trust. Mindless. NO controlling permitted. Relaxed, balanced, carefree.
>
> Work from there.
>
> Only after achieving success with easy shots with a PW doing part swings
as
> long as they are mindless - then you can go to the course with some tees
and
> your PW, same idea. The trajectory of the ball is NOT to be considered
> until some kind of decent impact is found by adjustments.
>
> WHEN YOU DO have some confidence, it isn't a big deal to make the small
> adjustments in alignment, grip or whatever -- ball position mid body is a
> good place to start - to get a handle on it.
>
> Sometimes use a driver with very energetic swings also. Not just easy
> swings, because you will tend unconsciously to be overcontrolling your
club.
>
> Mirror work for practicing your practice swing: then mindless "I don't
care"
> swings near balls that you can walk closer to to hit....
>
> your enemy is your fear about the ball behaving badly. So whiffle balls
> feed back nothing to embarrass you. This is how kids learn: they don't
> care. AFTER getting results, they start to find the ball. But if they
> don't take lessons except "hit home runs, honey!", they learn how to use
> their practice swing. The damage is done when they get detail conscious.
> So become childlike. Mindless; lose control ("to get control...") and
TAKE
> ENOUGH TIME TO GIVE THE PROCESS A CHANCE TO WORK.
>
> George Hibbard
> www.perfectimpact.com
>
I've spent a bunch of time with those types of concepts. I'm not saying that
they are wrong, but I am not able to translate them into useful progress.
Whiffle balls in particular are golf balls as far as my conscious and
subconscious are concerned. I've tried hitting tennis balls (have no idea
what a good hit would result in and you can't possible miss something that
big) - no change.
Gonna give this one more try - but ...
dave
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 13:04:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 12:04:17 -0700, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>
>
>On Oct 5, 2:55 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>
>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> fundamentals are improved.
>
>I agree, but think about it a little differently. I would say that to
>improve lag
>you have to break some well-entrenched bad habits and establish new
>ones.
>But I have to believe it is not impossible. This is the main thing I
>am working
>on in my current set of lessons, and I have seen progress, but falling
>back
>on old habits is a persistent problem.
>
>In my case, it seems to be a matter of arriving at the top in a
>position
>where I can get back to the ball just by turning and keeping the set
>in my right wrist.
Buy a Whippy TempoMaster middle iron and learn to hit that straight.
There are great drills in the brochure and tape that come with it. Do
those patiently and you won't need lessons.
Larry
>
>My pro has me building up from small swings, and doing several
>drills, which I have posted before. Hitting 50 yd shots with a LW
>off dirt to a target seems to be good practice.
>
>Never practice on mats!
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 11:56:26
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Mike Dalecki wrote:
> curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> >>with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >>
> >>The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> >>as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >>someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> >>is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> >>require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >>difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >>fundamentals are improved.
> >>
> >>From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >>comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >>
> >>Thanks.
> >>
> >>dave
> >
> >
> > I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
> > with the speed of the takeaway.
>
> I don't see this as true at all, CJ. You can start a swing from the top
> from a static position; what matters is when the lag--the stored energy
> in the cocked wrists--is released.
>
I don't think a swing at the top with your wrists cocked will have the
same coil as having wrists coiling in motion. When you are in motion
going to the back and decide to curtail that motion, the momentum will
cause further tensioning in the wrists and arms IMO. I agree that the
releasing is of utmost importance, but the storing is also very
important. And the releasing is not just automatic, it takes some
wherewithal to incorporate the how and when it to get the sought after
maximized efficiency.
> If you're saying that the slowing of the backswing (takeaway) at the top
> causes the wrists to cock, as the momentum of the arms slows and the
> continued momentum of the club causes the wrists to cock, well, that's
> probably one way to do it.
>
The wrists cock when you tell it to, immediate, early, or late. The
slowing you allude to will further tense the muscles.
> The wrist-cock can be achieved very early--my pro does that.
>
I agree with your pro.
>
>
> > Weight shift and turn are very
> > important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
> > wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
> > except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
> > and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
> > I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
> > basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
> > IMO.
> >
> > CJ
>
> It may be that the feeling is different for different people.
>
> Mike
I think it's different for me on practially every swing. I wish it
wasn't...-).
CJ
>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
> RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
> RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 13:02:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 11:56:26 -0700, curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>Mike Dalecki wrote:
>> curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>>
>> > Dave Lee wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>> >>with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>> >>
>> >>The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>> >>as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> >>someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>> >>is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> >>require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> >>difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> >>fundamentals are improved.
>> >>
>> >>From my experience that seems correct. Other
>> >>comments/observations/experiences on this?
>> >>
>> >>Thanks.
>> >>
>> >>dave
>> >
>> >
>> > I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
>> > with the speed of the takeaway.
>>
>> I don't see this as true at all, CJ. You can start a swing from the top
>> from a static position; what matters is when the lag--the stored energy
>> in the cocked wrists--is released.
>>
>I don't think a swing at the top with your wrists cocked will have the
>same coil as having wrists coiling in motion. When you are in motion
>going to the back and decide to curtail that motion, the momentum will
>cause further tensioning in the wrists and arms IMO. I agree that the
>releasing is of utmost importance, but the storing is also very
>important. And the releasing is not just automatic, it takes some
>wherewithal to incorporate the how and when it to get the sought after
>maximized efficiency.
>
>
>> If you're saying that the slowing of the backswing (takeaway) at the top
>> causes the wrists to cock, as the momentum of the arms slows and the
>> continued momentum of the club causes the wrists to cock, well, that's
>> probably one way to do it.
>>
>The wrists cock when you tell it to, immediate, early, or late. The
>slowing you allude to will further tense the muscles.
Admittedly a few swing like that-- but the overwhelming majority do
and did not. Just watch a real-time video of Bobby Jones, Sam Snead,
Ben Hogan, Moe Norman and a zillion others-- their backswings were
fairly fast because they wanted the momentum of the swinging club to
set their wrists. They SWUNG it up and then rhythmically swung it
down.
That is also what David Leadbetter's SwingSetter encourages. If you
try to consciously set your wrists you won't be able to make it
'click' during the backswing.
Larry
>
>> The wrist-cock can be achieved very early--my pro does that.
>>
>I agree with your pro.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Weight shift and turn are very
>> > important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
>> > wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
>> > except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
>> > and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
>> > I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
>> > basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
>> > IMO.
>> >
>> > CJ
>>
>> It may be that the feeling is different for different people.
>>
>> Mike
>
>I think it's different for me on practially every swing. I wish it
>wasn't...-).
>
>CJ
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
>> RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
>> RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 10:30:02
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>
> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> fundamentals are improved.
>
> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
with the speed of the takeaway. Weight shift and turn are very
important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
IMO.
CJ
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 17:45:10
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
<curtjester@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:1160242202.887217.65040@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
>> specifically
>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>
>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
>> such
>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
>> lag
>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> fundamentals are improved.
>>
>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> dave
>
> I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
> with the speed of the takeaway. Weight shift and turn are very
> important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
> wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
> except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
> and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
> I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
> basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
> IMO.
>
> CJ
Lag is a word used to identify the fact that the hands lead the club: and
ideally from a 90 degree angle, whenever that IS produced. But lag itself
is maintained by constant forward pressure; to waste or leak that, to use up
the mechanical advantage of the wristcock prematurely--these lose lag.
Hence the swing collapses and an artificial and powerless substitute to move
the club must be contrived. Velocity is achieved most efficiently by a
constant pressure that increases it gradually. (which in microseconds can
be very fast).
>
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 12:58:06
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 7 Oct 2006 10:30:02 -0700, curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>
>Dave Lee wrote:
>
>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>
>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> fundamentals are improved.
>>
>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> dave
>
>I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
>with the speed of the takeaway. Weight shift and turn are very
>important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
>wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
>except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
>and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
>I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
>basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
>IMO.
>
>CJ
You are making it unnecessarily complicated. Simply take the club in
either hand-- and swing it back and allow its momentum to fully cock
your wrist. Then without exerting any pressure from your fingers,
swing your arm-- The club stays back because it has weight and
inertia. That is lag and when it flails through that is a natural
release.
Poor golfers defeat this natural lag and release by exerting leverage
on the handle, holding the top hand while pushing the lower hand--
like you would chop with a garden hoe.
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 13:41:31
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:4g1gi29ogi7tvfghod6uhtk7kafb2aia6l@4ax.com...
> You are making it unnecessarily complicated. Simply take the club in
> either hand-- and swing it back and allow its momentum to fully cock
> your wrist. Then without exerting any pressure from your fingers,
> swing your arm-- The club stays back because it has weight and
> inertia. That is lag and when it flails through that is a natural
> release.
> Larry
The folding rt arm cocks the left wrist.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 13:05:01
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
>
>>I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>>with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>
>>The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>>as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>>is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>>require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>fundamentals are improved.
>>
>>From my experience that seems correct. Other
>>comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>dave
>
>
> I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
> with the speed of the takeaway.
I don't see this as true at all, CJ. You can start a swing from the top
from a static position; what matters is when the lag--the stored energy
in the cocked wrists--is released.
If you're saying that the slowing of the backswing (takeaway) at the top
causes the wrists to cock, as the momentum of the arms slows and the
continued momentum of the club causes the wrists to cock, well, that's
probably one way to do it.
The wrist-cock can be achieved very early--my pro does that.
> Weight shift and turn are very
> important and must be coordinated with the independent lag of the
> wrist. I wouldn't know how to describe on how to improve on it,
> except to feel it in the takeaway, and feel different grip pressures
> and muscle tensions versus your release of that obtained lag strategy.
> I think some of the comments concerning releasing slow is good because
> basically it would be hard to release any other way and be effective
> IMO.
>
> CJ
It may be that the feeling is different for different people.
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 21:09:44
From: David Sneddon
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Mike Dalecki wrote:
> curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
>>> specifically
>>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>>
>>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
>>> such
>>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever
>>> your lag
>>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>> fundamentals are improved.
>>>
>>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> dave
>>
>>
>>
>> I am under the impression that lag is obtained by the wrist cock along
>> with the speed of the takeaway.
>
>
> I don't see this as true at all, CJ. You can start a swing from the top
> from a static position; what matters is when the lag--the stored energy
> in the cocked wrists--is released.
>
> If you're saying that the slowing of the backswing (takeaway) at the top
> causes the wrists to cock, as the momentum of the arms slows and the
> continued momentum of the club causes the wrists to cock, well, that's
> probably one way to do it.
>
> The wrist-cock can be achieved very early--my pro does that.
My pro has had me working on an early set of the wrists too, Mike. I
already have plenty of lag on the downswing, when my hands are just
below my waistline the club is still around 90*.
The idea of setting the wrists earlier (for me) is to get into a better
position at the top of the swing, with the shaft opinting towards the
target line, rather than across.
I'll see if he can transfer his video of my swing from his camera to a
computer.
David
|
| |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 15:21:17
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
>
snippit...
You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
any lag at all.
Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
the downswing definately doesn't work!
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 12:46:17
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 6 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:
>
>larry wrote:
>>
>snippit...
>
>You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
>have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
>Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
>turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
>any lag at all.
>
>Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
>hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
>always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
>best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
>the downswing definately doesn't work!
I really think advising anyone to "swing easy" is bogus. Everyone
must swing at their own natural tempo.
The trick in golf is to hit or swing as hard as you naturally want to
while still hitting it straight consistently. Hogan did that, Palmer
did that, and so did Nicklaus and probably all the good pros, Trevino,
Snead, etc.
They did that by managing the tension in their body as the backswing
begins- especially the tension in their arms and the pressure of their
grip. Snead said it best, hold the club 'like you would hold a baby
bird,' and Nicklaus described his 'ragdoll' arm tension. They were
NOT exaggerating. That extremely loose tension and grip pressure
allows the full wrist set to happen with just momentum of the
backswing-- and swinging the club back like that sets the tempo of the
downswing. Then if the golfer starts down with a lateral hip or knee
(same thing) shift toward the target, the rest will happen
sequentially--no matter how "hard" the golfer intends to hit the ball
he will still send the clubhead through the impact area directly
toward the target--
The lag will be preserved because the loose grip does NOT allow the
golfer to cast the club-- and the release will occur late for the same
reason. Maintaining an extremely loose grip is the whole deal. The
club should be on the verge of flying out of your fingers.
Of course you must trust that the clubhead will be aligned correctly
before impact WITHOUT need for correction or steering from the handle.
If you can't leave it alone and let that happen centrifugally, I
strongly suggest you get a Whippy TempoMaster club and work through
the drills that come with that.
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 19:06:46
From: dsc
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
> Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
> right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
> retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
> actions.
I agree and suggest you only swing very hard if there is a very good
reason to do so... and there are at times such reasons. Tigers 200 yard
7I from the rough up the hill at Pebble Beach (IIRC) is once such
example where he swung very hard. I've heard Lee Trevion talk about how
Jack would go along hitin drier 285 yards or so, but when he needed too
he could brace up and smack it 325. He did that by swinging hard (still
within his capabilities, but much closer to his limits than normal).
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 11:31:45
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 19:06:46 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>
>> Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
>> right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
>> retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
>> actions.
>
>I agree and suggest you only swing very hard if there is a very good
>reason to do so... and there are at times such reasons. Tigers 200 yard
>7I from the rough up the hill at Pebble Beach (IIRC) is once such
>example where he swung very hard. I've heard Lee Trevion talk about how
>Jack would go along hitin drier 285 yards or so, but when he needed too
>he could brace up and smack it 325. He did that by swinging hard (still
>within his capabilities, but much closer to his limits than normal).
But remember what creates clubhead speed-- and it is the preservation
of the deep wrist set as long as possible --combined with a late
"hard" release. The speed of the release happens in direct proportion
to the speed of the turning of the torso toward the target-- the torso
flinging the arms (especially the front arm), and the arms flinging
the club shaft and that flinging the clubhead. The arms must be
extremely loose as well as the grip extremely loose.
Jack Nicklaus made a huge transition move like Hogan did-- and thus he
was able to retain the lag very long into his downswing.
What amateurs should get from this is that clubhead speed is created
by a very strong lateral hip thrust to start the downswing-- extremely
loose grip and arms to allow the club to "flail."
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 12:53:23
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
The_Professor wrote:
> Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
> right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
> retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
> actions.
Are they really? If a swing is defined as a coordinated movement
of hands/arms/shoulder/hips/knees/feet/head, then why is there any
inconsistency in saying that swinging as hard as you can is the same
as swinging as hard as you can while retaining good form?
Great players practice so they know EXACTLY how to apply as
much force as they can while retaining good form.
And Hogan was pretty blunt in saying he, at times, swung with as
much force as he could muster.
-PA
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 12:33:06
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> >> the least control.
> >
> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
> >
> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> >properly.
>
> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
>
Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
actions.
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 16:02:22
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 12:33:06 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote:
>
>larry wrote:
>> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The_Professor wrote:
>> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
>> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
>> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
>> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
>> >> the least control.
>> >
>> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
>> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
>> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
>> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
>> >
>> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
>> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
>> >properly.
>>
>> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
>> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
>> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
>> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
>> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
>> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
>> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
>>
>
>
>Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
>right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
>retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
>actions.
Nope, it is the same thing. Once we get our hands down in front of
us-- we can crunch it and it will go straight consistently. In fact
it is better to aggressively swing toward the target--even if you have
to take a step over with your back foot to keep your balance.
The most common mistake in the golf swing is lagging back- failing to
transfer our weight forward early, failing to post on the front leg
before the arms come around, and then decelerating before impact.
Slice or pull-hook. Try to take a LONG divot toward the target.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 23:07:18
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <qb9oi25ecf42rk9bsdc50j3cj6avnuafsa@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2006 12:33:06 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >larry wrote:
> >> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >The_Professor wrote:
> >> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not. You
> >> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
> >> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder you
> >> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you have
> >> >> the least control.
> >> >
> >> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
> >> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
> >> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
> >> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
> >> >
> >> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
> >> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
> >> >properly.
> >>
> >> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
> >> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
> >> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
> >> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
> >> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
> >> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
> >> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
> >right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
> >retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
> >actions.
>
> Nope, it is the same thing. Once we get our hands down in front of
> us-- we can crunch it and it will go straight consistently. In fact
> it is better to aggressively swing toward the target--even if you have
> to take a step over with your back foot to keep your balance.
>
> The most common mistake in the golf swing is lagging back- failing to
> transfer our weight forward early, failing to post on the front leg
> before the arms come around, and then decelerating before impact.
> Slice or pull-hook. Try to take a LONG divot toward the target.
>
Sure, Larry. And you've told us that any attempt to accelerate the club
with our hands inevitably causes the opposite result.
Were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 20:54:57
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote in message
news:1160508785.940415.86610@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> larry wrote:
>> On 10 Oct 2006 11:15:49 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The_Professor wrote:
>> >> And I stand by that...it may look hard to us, but to him it is not.
>> >> You
>> >> might also want to look at his typical approach shot, or consider the
>> >> difficulty he has keeping the driver on the golf course. The harder
>> >> you
>> >> swing, the less control you have. Swing as hard as you can and you
>> >> have
>> >> the least control.
>> >
>> >That's simply not true. Hogan says in his book he quite often swings
>> >at the driver with all his might, and he is widely considered one
>> >of the very best drivers in the history of the game. Nicklaus and Woods
>> >also swing at the ball REALLY hard quite often with the driver.
>> >
>> >The key, of course, is knowing how to keep it all together, how to
>> >swing hard, what parts of your body to push, and how to push them
>> >properly.
>>
>> If the golfer has made a correct downswing to the point where his
>> weight is on his front leg and his wrists are still fully cocked with
>> his hands down near his back leg-- he can complete the swing as hard
>> as he can and still likely retain good form, hit the ball accurately
>> and propel the clubhead through impact toward the target. At that
>> point Hogan said he wished he had 3 right hands-- to PUSH the left
>> hand, not to manipulate with fingers.
>>
>
>
> Learn something every day! I thought Hogan said he wished he had 3
> right sides. Completing the swing as ahrd as you can and still
> retaining good form and swinging as hard as you can are two different
> actions.
>
Here's what Hogan actually said in TMFOG.
pg.96: "On a full drive, I try to hit the ball hard,
sometimes as hard as I can. On other shots where
the premium on distance is not so high, I try to hit
the ball as hard as the particular shot warrants."
and on pg.108: "I feel, and I have proved to myself,
that I can hit a ball straighter if I hit it hard and full."
BTW it was three right hands he wanted.
Alan
|
| | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 00:27:57
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0700, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >larry wrote:
> >>
> >snippit...
> >
> >You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
> >have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
> >Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
> >turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
> >any lag at all.
> >
> >Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
> >hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
> >always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
> >best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
> >the downswing definately doesn't work!
>
> I really think advising anyone to "swing easy" is bogus. Everyone
> must swing at their own natural tempo.
>
> snip...
> If you can't leave it alone and let that happen centrifugally, I
> strongly suggest you get a Whippy TempoMaster club and work through
> the drills that come with that.
>
Swing hard = play bad for me. The times I play well are when I swing easy. I
hit the ball further and have a lot better touch. I always start swinging
hard though, thinking I'm going to hit the ball 300 yards and start hitting
it 130 yards...with no touch. I'll go with what owrks for me. Never see a
guy who swings hard play very well though...the od "8-handicapper" though,
but no one who is really any good.
All gimmicks are snake oil, including the whippy tempomaster.
|
| | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 06:55:22
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Robert Hamilton" <DBID@att.net > wrote in message
news:452995BA.23725B0B@att.net...
>
>
> All gimmicks are snake oil, including the whippy tempomaster.
>
Not a bit gimmicky: it is a good tool for coming to understand lag in your
skin. One doesn't learn to ride a bike by reading about it in a library.
You need to get on the bike.
The Whippy is a club where the experience of lag is so exaggerated just to
be able to swing it that the "skin" of your hands, your feelings and
feedback, get trained in the same way that getting on the bike trains the
adjustments you make in order to maintain balance. If you manhandle the
Whippy it won't work, of course, which means that you are not "getting it."
Once you DO get it, like bike riding, you don't forget.
>
|
| | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 11:32:25
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote in message
news:1160173277.320001.209720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> larry wrote:
>>
> snippit...
>
> You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
> have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
> Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
> turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
> any lag at all.
>
> Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
> hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
> always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
> best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
> the downswing definately doesn't work!
>
If you DO apply constant pressure ("maintain the lag") from a slow
beginning, of course the secret IS to keep that pressure the same as gravity
continues to apply a constant force on a falling object.. Your hands will
HAVE to get going faster and faster just to keep up the constant pressure.
They don't move at a constant velocity any more than the falling rock: they
DO increase their speed smoothly because the PRESSURE is constant.
Well said- because hard or quick is disruptive of that constancy.
This is a great description of the technique of so many LPGA players,
especially Annika. Unreal how fast her hands are actually moving by the
time of impact, vs. how un-quick she appears to swing. And so also with so
many others.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 11:52:40
From: David Sneddon
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
George Hibbard wrote:
> "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote in message
> news:1160173277.320001.209720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>larry wrote:
>>
>>snippit...
>>
>>You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
>>have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
>>Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
>>turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
>>any lag at all.
>>
>>Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
>>hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
>>always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
>>best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
>>the downswing definately doesn't work!
>>
>
>
> If you DO apply constant pressure ("maintain the lag") from a slow
> beginning, of course the secret IS to keep that pressure the same as gravity
> continues to apply a constant force on a falling object.. Your hands will
> HAVE to get going faster and faster just to keep up the constant pressure.
> They don't move at a constant velocity any more than the falling rock: they
> DO increase their speed smoothly because the PRESSURE is constant.
>
> Well said- because hard or quick is disruptive of that constancy.
>
> This is a great description of the technique of so many LPGA players,
> especially Annika. Unreal how fast her hands are actually moving by the
> time of impact, vs. how un-quick she appears to swing. And so also with so
> many others.
>
>
>
Camera fixed yet????
David
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 17:42:09
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"David Sneddon" <nospam@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:4oq0q4Ffr1cgU2@individual.net...
> George Hibbard wrote:
>> "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net> wrote in message
>> news:1160173277.320001.209720@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>larry wrote:
>>>
>>>snippit...
>>>
>>>You can follow the standard swing advice, as you suggest, and still
>>>have little to no lag. The secret is to not swing so hard, so quick.
>>>Most of us are waaaay to quick, in all aspects, too quick with the body
>>>turn, too quick with the arms and too quick with the release, to have
>>>any lag at all.
>>>
>>>Swinging hard doesn't work. If you can't feel lag, you are swinging too
>>>hard. Slow down! The age old advice of having it feel like you are
>>>always swinging at the same speed through the downswing is probably the
>>>best advice for this issue...feeling like you are speeding up through
>>>the downswing definately doesn't work!
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you DO apply constant pressure ("maintain the lag") from a slow
>> beginning, of course the secret IS to keep that pressure the same as
>> gravity continues to apply a constant force on a falling object.. Your
>> hands will HAVE to get going faster and faster just to keep up the
>> constant pressure. They don't move at a constant velocity any more than
>> the falling rock: they DO increase their speed smoothly because the
>> PRESSURE is constant.
>>
>> Well said- because hard or quick is disruptive of that constancy.
>>
>> This is a great description of the technique of so many LPGA players,
>> especially Annika. Unreal how fast her hands are actually moving by the
>> time of impact, vs. how un-quick she appears to swing. And so also with
>> so many others.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Camera fixed yet????
>
> David
Awaiting its return from Camcorder Clinic in Tampa. Delayed. Email me for
details if you want confirmation. gh@perfectimpact.com
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 10:06:40
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"David Sneddon" <nospam@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:4oq0q4Ffr1cgU2@individual.net...
>> George Hibbard wrote:
> Camera fixed yet????
>
> David
It's under his Ivy League Diploma.
|
| |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:20:24
From: Ersatz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Dave Lee wrote:
> >> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> >> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >>
> >> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> >> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> >> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> >> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >> fundamentals are improved.
> >>
> >> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >> comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >
> >I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
> >address.
> >
> >If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
> >you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
> >period, a week or two.
>
> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top. We get that
> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
> there.
>
> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
> wrists--
>
> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
>
> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
> move across the front of our body.
>
> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
>
> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
>
> Larry
Nice try Larry, politics are taboo, but now it appears golf topics are
trashed also.
Rog
|
| | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:41:16
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 6 Oct 2006 14:20:24 -0700, "Ersatz" <rog@repairman.com > wrote:
>
>larry wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Dave Lee wrote:
>> >> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>> >> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>> >>
>> >> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>> >> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> >> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>> >> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> >> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> >> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> >> fundamentals are improved.
>> >>
>> >> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>> >> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>> >
>> >I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
>> >address.
>> >
>> >If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
>> >you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
>> >period, a week or two.
>>
>> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top. We get that
>> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
>> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
>> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
>> there.
>>
>> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
>> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
>> wrists--
>>
>> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
>> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
>> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
>> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
>>
>> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
>> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
>> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
>> move across the front of our body.
>>
>> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
>> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
>> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
>> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
>> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
>>
>> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
>> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
>>
>> Larry
>
>Nice try Larry, politics are taboo, but now it appears golf topics are
>trashed also.
>Rog
I don't usually even click on the comments from the regulars here. I
KNOW their post will be brainless nitpicks and a total waste of time
for me and everyone. Just do what I do and if the poster is a
regular, skip it.
I participate in half a dozen other forums-- and this is by far the
worst, RSG has become totally useless--because of the lurking
regulars. Apparently for a dozen or so sickos this is their ONLY
daily entertainment. Sad.
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 21:54:45
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <c4jdi2hdm0m402smvv4g3ufhide2gpdrbg@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2006 14:20:24 -0700, "Ersatz" <rog@repairman.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >larry wrote:
> >> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Dave Lee wrote:
> >> >> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> >> >> specifically
> >> >> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >> >>
> >> >> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> >> >> such
> >> >> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >> >> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
> >> >> lag
> >> >> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement
> >> >> will
> >> >> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >> >> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >> >> fundamentals are improved.
> >> >>
> >> >> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >> >> comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >> >
> >> >I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
> >> >address.
> >> >
> >> >If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
> >> >you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
> >> >period, a week or two.
> >>
> >> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top. We get that
> >> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
> >> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
> >> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
> >> there.
> >>
> >> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
> >> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
> >> wrists--
> >>
> >> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
> >> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
> >> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
> >> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
> >>
> >> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
> >> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
> >> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
> >> move across the front of our body.
> >>
> >> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
> >> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
> >> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
> >> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
> >> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
> >>
> >> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
> >> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >Nice try Larry, politics are taboo, but now it appears golf topics are
> >trashed also.
> >Rog
>
> I don't usually even click on the comments from the regulars here. I
> KNOW their post will be brainless nitpicks and a total waste of time
> for me and everyone. Just do what I do and if the poster is a
> regular, skip it.
>
> I participate in half a dozen other forums-- and this is by far the
> worst, RSG has become totally useless--because of the lurking
> regulars. Apparently for a dozen or so sickos this is their ONLY
> daily entertainment. Sad.
>
> Larry
Please. I dare you. Produce a forum where anyone has any respect for
your opinions on golf.
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 23:08:15
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 21:54:45 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>Please. I dare you. Produce a forum where anyone has any respect for
>your opinions on golf.
The Golf Channel discussion forum. Some there think Larry is a golf
genius. Shows how bad the level of golf knowledge is over there.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
|
| |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 03:14:56
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>
> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> fundamentals are improved.
>
> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> comments/observations/experiences on this?
I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
address.
If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
period, a week or two.
hth
-PA
|
| | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 12:05:49
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>Dave Lee wrote:
>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>
>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>> fundamentals are improved.
>>
>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>
>I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
>address.
>
>If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
>you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
>period, a week or two.
We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top. We get that
by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
there.
Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
wrists--
Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
move across the front of our body.
The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
Larry
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 09:20:43
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
SKIPPER wrote:
> The_Professor wrote:
> > SKIPPER wrote:
> > > The_Professor wrote:
> > > > When we hackers think swing hard, we don't think turn or rotate hard,
> > > > we think arm swing hard.
> > >
> > > Speak for yourself. Not for others. I can turn HARD with my hips to
> > > initiate the downswing, and wish I had three right hands to hit it as
> > > hard as I can.
> > >
> >
> > More power to ya! You know what they say...swing hard and look up! I
> > guess I'm doomed to be a hacker forever because I swing easy and try to
> > stay down! Swing hard and look up just don't work for me!
>
> No.
>
> On the backswing, my right leg and head do not move. I stop
> before my shoulder pushes my head off position.
>
> On the downswing, at least through contact, my head doesn't
> move.
>
> with the club on plane, and the torso appropriately coiled, I can
> hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
> the shot.
>
I'm just like Tiger Woods then, and not as good as you! Hard as I try,
I just can't figure in coriolis forces when trying to keep my head
still! I've never seen any player, anywhere, on TV, in person, in a vid
of some sort who can:
"hit as hard as I like without destroying or even adversely impacting
the shot."
...you need to go on tour as even Tiger Woods isn't as good as you are!
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
>
> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
> >"glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> >news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> >> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
> >Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
> >still does in a lesser degree...Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
> Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
>
> I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
> looks at the target first, of course.
Fred has totally grooved a very good, although slightly quirky swing.
He is at the point where all he has to think about is the target. But
you (and I) are FAR from that point, unless you want to continue
being a hack the rest of your life.
This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 16:13:37
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
<bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
>>
>> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>> >news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> >> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
>> >>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> >>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> >>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> >>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> >>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> >>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>>
>> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>>
>> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>> >Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>> >still does in a lesser degree...Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
>> Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
>>
>> I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
>> looks at the target first, of course.
>
>Fred has totally grooved a very good, although slightly quirky swing.
>He is at the point where all he has to think about is the target. But
>you (and I) are FAR from that point, unless you want to continue
>being a hack the rest of your life.
>
>This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
>to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
>full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
>
>But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.
If EVERY ball didn't go straight, 10 for 10 drives down the middle, I
would indeed be miserable. I let the clubhead align itself
centrifugally like I do the Whippy driver-- and good old gravity
always seems to work. Good old gravity doesn't seem to care where my
head is--as long as I have moved my big butt off my back leg and
preserved the lag from my backswing. THAT is about 100 times more
important that the trivial detail you seem to fixate on.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 23:44:14
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
>>to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
>>full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
>>
>>But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.
>
>
> If EVERY ball didn't go straight, 10 for 10 drives down the middle, I
> would indeed be miserable. I let the clubhead align itself
> centrifugally like I do the Whippy driver-- and good old gravity
> always seems to work. Good old gravity doesn't seem to care where my
> head is--as long as I have moved my big butt off my back leg and
> preserved the lag from my backswing. THAT is about 100 times more
> important that the trivial detail you seem to fixate on.
>
> Larry
Let me get this straight ... you're claiming that you *NEVER* miss a
fairway ... that every time you play "EVERY" drive is in the fairway
(and at a reasonable distance, like >200 yards)??? You must be the
greatest golfer that ever lived.
Rob
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>>
>>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>> fundamentals are improved.
>>>
>>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>> I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
>> address.
>>
>> If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
>> you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
>> period, a week or two.
>
> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top.
That's not the only way. My local pro--he's a PGA pro, Larry--advocates
a cocking of the wrists early in takeaway.
>We get that
> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
> there.
I agree it's hard to have good lag and release with a tight grip.
> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
> wrists--
It's not the only way. See above. My pro likes the early wrist cock in
the swing partly as a way to model where that wrist-cock should be on
the way down.
> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
>
> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
> move across the front of our body.
Maybe. Sure isn't how AJ Bonar teaches it.
> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
This also is not true.
> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
So why do you write garbage like this?
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2005 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2005/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 15:39:02
From: Dene
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Alan Baker wrote:
>
> Which is why you've gone from telling us all to swing like Allen Doyle
> back to your use the Whippy phase.
>
> BTW, you've never been an 8 handicap. The lowest you've ever been is an
> 8.8, which you'd really have to call a 9 and you've basically been stuck
> at that level for an entire year.
And your handicap is???
-Greg
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 16:13:45
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 10 Oct 2006 15:39:02 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:
>
>Alan Baker wrote:
>
>>
>> Which is why you've gone from telling us all to swing like Allen Doyle
>> back to your use the Whippy phase.
>>
>> BTW, you've never been an 8 handicap. The lowest you've ever been is an
>> 8.8, which you'd really have to call a 9 and you've basically been stuck
>> at that level for an entire year.
>
>And your handicap is???
>
>-Greg
These "regulars" don't actually play, Greg. They just lurk and
kibbitz.
Larry
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 00:13:05
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <08aoi2tuji21rs4uismp8h6jvai2j4c68i@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2006 15:39:02 -0700, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Which is why you've gone from telling us all to swing like Allen Doyle
> >> back to your use the Whippy phase.
> >>
> >> BTW, you've never been an 8 handicap. The lowest you've ever been is an
> >> 8.8, which you'd really have to call a 9 and you've basically been stuck
> >> at that level for an entire year.
> >
> >And your handicap is???
> >
> >-Greg
>
> These "regulars" don't actually play, Greg. They just lurk and
> kibbitz.
>
> Larry
My handicap is currently 12.3, but I'm not sure that they are
calculating it correctly. I don't they're automatically applying ESC,
and with me, that tends to matter...
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:36:32
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdoctor.com >
wrote:
>larry wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>>>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>>>
>>>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>>>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>>>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>>>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>>> fundamentals are improved.
>>>>
>>>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
>>>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>> I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
>>> address.
>>>
>>> If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
>>> you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
>>> period, a week or two.
>>
>> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top.
>
>That's not the only way. My local pro--he's a PGA pro, Larry--advocates
>a cocking of the wrists early in takeaway.
>
> >We get that
>> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
>> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
>> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
>> there.
>
>I agree it's hard to have good lag and release with a tight grip.
>
>> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
>> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
>> wrists--
>
>It's not the only way. See above. My pro likes the early wrist cock in
>the swing partly as a way to model where that wrist-cock should be on
>the way down.
>
>> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
>> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
>> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
>> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
>>
>> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
>> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
>> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
>> move across the front of our body.
>
>Maybe. Sure isn't how AJ Bonar teaches it.
>
>> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
>> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
>> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
>> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
>> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
>
>This also is not true.
>
>> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
>> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
>
>You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
>advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
>
>So why do you write garbage like this?
>
>Mike
Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
Annika's tits.
Larry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 00:28:12
From: JJK
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" wrote:
<snip >
> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> Annika's t*ts.
Hey, Bret's the first to note that he's overweight.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 21:33:07
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:epidi2dr327de10vcshhhr9jpl6fmh8bv1@4ax.com...
> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>
> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> Annika's tits.
>
> Larry
No defense of what you posted?
You mean instead of defending your thoughts, you complain like a little
child?
Not good debate.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>
> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> Annika's tits.
>
> Larry
The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
part or just plain BS.
Rob
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 09:45:11
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
> >>
> >> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
> >>
> >> >> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> >>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> >>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> >>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> >>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> >>> demonstrated in this video clip.
> >>
> >> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
> >>
> >> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
> >> >Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
> >> >still does in a lesser degree...Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
> >> Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
> >>
> >> I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
> >> looks at the target first, of course.
> >
> >Fred has totally grooved a very good, although slightly quirky swing.
> >He is at the point where all he has to think about is the target. But
> >you (and I) are FAR from that point, unless you want to continue
> >being a hack the rest of your life.
> >
> >This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
> >to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
> >full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
> >
> >But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.
>
> If EVERY ball didn't go straight, 10 for 10 drives down the middle, I
> would indeed be miserable. I let the clubhead align itself
> centrifugally like I do the Whippy driver-- and good old gravity
> always seems to work. Good old gravity doesn't seem to care where my
> head is--as long as I have moved my big butt off my back leg and
> preserved the lag from my backswing. THAT is about 100 times more
> important that the trivial detail you seem to fixate on.
>
Gravity is a sucking up to down force. What does that have to do with
the golf swing?
CJ
> Larry
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 16:48:55
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 12 Oct 2006 09:45:11 -0700, curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
>larry wrote:
>> On 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
>> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
>> >>
>> >> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>> >>
>> >> >> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
>> >> >>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> >> >>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> >> >>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> >> >>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> >> >>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> >> >>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>> >>
>> >> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>> >>
>> >> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>> >> >Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>> >> >still does in a lesser degree...Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
>> >> Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
>> >>
>> >> I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
>> >> looks at the target first, of course.
>> >
>> >Fred has totally grooved a very good, although slightly quirky swing.
>> >He is at the point where all he has to think about is the target. But
>> >you (and I) are FAR from that point, unless you want to continue
>> >being a hack the rest of your life.
>> >
>> >This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
>> >to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
>> >full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
>> >
>> >But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.
>>
>> If EVERY ball didn't go straight, 10 for 10 drives down the middle, I
>> would indeed be miserable. I let the clubhead align itself
>
>> centrifugally like I do the Whippy driver-- and good old gravity
>> always seems to work. Good old gravity doesn't seem to care where my
>> head is--as long as I have moved my big butt off my back leg and
>> preserved the lag from my backswing. THAT is about 100 times more
>> important that the trivial detail you seem to fixate on.
>>
>Gravity is a sucking up to down force. What does that have to do with
>the golf swing?
I am not gonna bite. Someone else please.
Larry
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 17:36:36
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Oct 11, 6:13 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote:
> On 11 Oct 2006 12:36:15 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
>
> >On Oct 11, 1:36 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
>
> >> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
> >> >"glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> >> >> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >> >>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> >>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> >>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> >>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> >>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> >>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>
> >> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
> >> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
> >> >Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
> >> >still does in a lesser degree...Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
> >> Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
>
> >> I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
> >> looks at the target first, of course.
>
> >Fred has totally grooved a very good, although slightly quirky swing.
> >He is at the point where all he has to think about is the target. But
> >you (and I) are FAR from that point, unless you want to continue
> >being a hack the rest of your life.
>
> >This "inconsequential detail" has a lot of consequences. It happens
> >to be the one detail that the pros do 100% of the time on normal
> >full swings, and that hackers often do not do.
>
> >But go ahead, and carry on. In fact, I like seeing you miserable.If EVERY ball didn't go straight, 10 for 10 drives down the middle, I
> would indeed be miserable. I let the clubhead align itself
> centrifugally like I do the Whippy driver-- and good old gravity
> always seems to work. Good old gravity doesn't seem to care where my
> head is--as long as I have moved my big butt off my back leg and
> preserved the lag from my backswing. THAT is about 100 times more
> important that the trivial detail you seem to fixate on.
>
> Larry - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Those 200 yd drives are quite impressive. It's a good thing you play a
short
course. LOL
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 12:53:11
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net >
wrote:
>larry wrote:
>> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
>> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
>> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>>
>> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
>> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
>> Annika's tits.
>>
>> Larry
>
>The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
>using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
>may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
>
>Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
>authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
>consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
>lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
>are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
>part or just plain BS.
>
>Rob
Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
Larry
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 16:35:18
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>larry wrote:
>>
>>>Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
>>>authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
>>>pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>>>
>>>Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
>>>except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
>>>Annika's tits.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>
>>The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
>>using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
>>may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
>>
>>Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
>>authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
>>consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
>>lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
>>are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
>>part or just plain BS.
>>
>>Rob
>
>
> Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
> understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
> lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
> casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
> desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
> without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
> can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
>
> As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
> Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
> with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
> before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
> ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
> treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
>
> Larry
This is not true.
I don't know how you sleep at night, holding forth on things you know
little or nothing about.
I don't spend much time fishing balls out of hazards or treelines, and
I'm thinking about squaring the clubface--and working to accomplish it
during the swing.
This garbage that somehow centrifugal force (is there even such a
thing?) will do the squaring and there ain't no other way is just
garbage, nothing more.
Let's see your swing, Larry. And how are you doing on the course, anyway?
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 07 Oct 2006 20:59:13
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <i11gi2tp4i7fcga9rr41dc8fjvn5lo3utt@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >larry wrote:
> >> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> >> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> >> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
> >>
> >> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> >> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> >> Annika's tits.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
> >using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
> >may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
> >
> >Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
> >authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
> >consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
> >lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
> >are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
> >part or just plain BS.
> >
> >Rob
>
> Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
> understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
> lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
> casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
> desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
> without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
> can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
>
> As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
> Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
> with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
> before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
> ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
> treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
>
> Larry
Funny... a little while ago you were extolling how well hitting it with
your hands was working for you...
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:20:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:59:13 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <i11gi2tp4i7fcga9rr41dc8fjvn5lo3utt@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >larry wrote:
>> >> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
>> >> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
>> >> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>> >>
>> >> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
>> >> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
>> >> Annika's tits.
>> >>
>> >> Larry
>> >
>> >The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
>> >using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
>> >may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
>> >
>> >Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
>> >authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
>> >consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
>> >lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
>> >are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
>> >part or just plain BS.
>> >
>> >Rob
>>
>> Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
>> understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
>> lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
>> casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
>> desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
>> without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
>> can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
>>
>> As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
>> Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
>> with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
>> before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
>> ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
>> treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
>>
>> Larry
>
>
>Funny... a little while ago you were extolling how well hitting it with
>your hands was working for you...
I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
hands.
If you can't hit them straight with a Whippy, you are doomed to be
inconsistent on the golf course. Alternatively, I have never seen a
really good player, teaching pros, etc, who are unable to hit a Whippy
straight after half a dozen trials.
Larry
Larry
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 00:27:42
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 10:20:46 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
>them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
>carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
>session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
>hands.
Do you leave it in your car when you play?
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:23:45
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:27:42 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 10:20:46 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
>>them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
>>carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
>>session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
>>hands.
>
>Do you leave it in your car when you play?
No.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 02:52:36
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:23:45 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>>>I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
>>>them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
>>>carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
>>>session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
>>>hands.
>>
>>Do you leave it in your car when you play?
>
>No.
Does it count against the 14 club limit?
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 11:33:46
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:52:36 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:23:45 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>>I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
>>>>them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
>>>>carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
>>>>session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
>>>>hands.
>>>
>>>Do you leave it in your car when you play?
>>
>>No.
>
>Does it count against the 14 club limit?
Who cares? That only applies in tournaments. And I have NEVER seen
or even heard of anyone counting anyone's clubs in amateur club
tournaments. Nobody cares. Everyone knows that another club or
another 10 clubs will make no difference in a high handicapper's
score.
Larry
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 01:07:51
From:
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:33:46 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>>Does it count against the 14 club limit?
>
>Who cares? That only applies in tournaments. And I have NEVER seen
>or even heard of anyone counting anyone's clubs in amateur club
>tournaments. Nobody cares. Everyone knows that another club or
>another 10 clubs will make no difference in a high handicapper's
>score.
When I'm at the driving range, I have my 3I. When I play a round, I
leave it in my car. I need a good reason to not play by the rules,
and that's not good enough.
And if I don't count my clubs when I'm playing casual golf - I might
forget when I'm playing in a tournament or for money. I'd rather
have good habits than try to argue that that rule doesn't count after
the fact.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 20:12:42
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:85eqi2ljvi7bjd3bm5h9d01o11om7jdrhn@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:52:36 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>Does it count against the 14 club limit?
>
> Who cares? That only applies in tournaments. And I have NEVER seen
> or even heard of anyone counting anyone's clubs in amateur club
> tournaments. Nobody cares. Everyone knows that another club or
> another 10 clubs will make no difference in a high handicapper's
> score.
>
> Larry
It's a rule of golf, Larry.
What other rules of golf do you break?
Alan.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:49:36
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <5t0li21l3uim25mgd6kjpi4tujo1tfvemd@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:59:13 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <i11gi2tp4i7fcga9rr41dc8fjvn5lo3utt@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >larry wrote:
> >> >> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> >> >> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> >> >> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
> >> >>
> >> >> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> >> >> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> >> >> Annika's tits.
> >> >>
> >> >> Larry
> >> >
> >> >The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
> >> >using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
> >> >may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
> >> >
> >> >Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
> >> >authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
> >> >consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
> >> >lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
> >> >are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
> >> >part or just plain BS.
> >> >
> >> >Rob
> >>
> >> Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
> >> understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
> >> lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
> >> casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
> >> desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
> >> without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
> >> can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
> >>
> >> As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
> >> Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
> >> with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
> >> before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
> >> ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
> >> treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >
> >Funny... a little while ago you were extolling how well hitting it with
> >your hands was working for you...
>
> I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
> them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
> carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
> session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
> hands.
>
> If you can't hit them straight with a Whippy, you are doomed to be
> inconsistent on the golf course. Alternatively, I have never seen a
> really good player, teaching pros, etc, who are unable to hit a Whippy
> straight after half a dozen trials.
Really? You've never claimed you controlled the club with your left hand?
'My game and my swing have undergone a "night and day" transformation
in the last 2 months or so after I decided to abandon the whole idea
of making my non-dominant side lead-- the Bobby Jones idea of "left
hand control." I am a strong lefty-- and that simply doesn't work for
me. I need to use my strength--my lefty. That is what I did in
handball and in tennis to become a very good player. So I went to a
full interlocking grip and consciously took control of the club with
my left hand.'
Or don't you remember saying this?
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 14:16:04
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:49:36 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <5t0li21l3uim25mgd6kjpi4tujo1tfvemd@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 20:59:13 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <i11gi2tp4i7fcga9rr41dc8fjvn5lo3utt@4ax.com>,
>> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sat, 07 Oct 2006 03:17:02 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >larry wrote:
>> >> >> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
>> >> >> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
>> >> >> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
>> >> >> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
>> >> >> Annika's tits.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Larry
>> >> >
>> >> >The problem here is that it helps to be really specific and clear when
>> >> >using words to describe the golf swing. What you consider a "nitpick"
>> >> >may in fact be an important detail to someone else.
>> >> >
>> >> >Also, saying that your posts are the opinion of "nearly every golf
>> >> >authority" is not even close to the truth. There is very little
>> >> >consensus amoung "authorities" on details like the best way to improve
>> >> >lag in your swing. For you to suggest otherwise, and to claim that you
>> >> >are in a position provide such a "consensus" is either foolish on your
>> >> >part or just plain BS.
>> >> >
>> >> >Rob
>> >>
>> >> Rob, you know that is crap. Anyone who has even rudimentary
>> >> understanding of the golf swing knows there is only one way to achieve
>> >> lag and that is to achieve a deep wrist cock on top and then avoid
>> >> casting as you downswing, literally to 'leave the club behind.' The
>> >> desired late release happens ONLY if we allow the club to "flail"
>> >> without interference from the handle-- without exerting leverage. You
>> >> can't MAKE it happen, you must LET it happen.
>> >>
>> >> As I have said here before, if you can't make them go straight with a
>> >> Whippy TempoMaster club, you can't consistently make them go staight
>> >> with any club. We must allow centrifugal force to align the clubhead
>> >> before impact in order to hit it straight consistently. There simply
>> >> ain't no other way. The "handsy" players are doomed to play the
>> >> treeline and fish them out of the hazards.
>> >>
>> >> Larry
>> >
>> >
>> >Funny... a little while ago you were extolling how well hitting it with
>> >your hands was working for you...
>>
>> I have NEVER "hit it with my hands." I have never been unable to hit
>> them straight with a Whippy TempoMaster club, wedge to driver. I
>> carry a Whippy 5i in my golf bag-- and use that nearly every warmup
>> session. You cannot hit them straight with a Whippy if you use
>> hands.
>>
>> If you can't hit them straight with a Whippy, you are doomed to be
>> inconsistent on the golf course. Alternatively, I have never seen a
>> really good player, teaching pros, etc, who are unable to hit a Whippy
>> straight after half a dozen trials.
>
>Really? You've never claimed you controlled the club with your left hand?
>
>'My game and my swing have undergone a "night and day" transformation
>in the last 2 months or so after I decided to abandon the whole idea
>of making my non-dominant side lead-- the Bobby Jones idea of "left
>hand control." I am a strong lefty-- and that simply doesn't work for
>me. I need to use my strength--my lefty. That is what I did in
>handball and in tennis to become a very good player. So I went to a
>full interlocking grip and consciously took control of the club with
>my left hand.'
>
>Or don't you remember saying this?
You persist in misunderstanding what I said then and what I say now.
You have apparently failed to learn the golf swing, else you would
know the concepts I meant to communicate.
I do indeed power my swing with my left "hand" but not like you
apparently think. I use my dominant left hand to push my right
hand-- the palm of my left against the upper thumb area of my
right--which makes the two arms work together as a single lever-- but
NEVER exerting finger manipulation with either hand. Because I swing
with "dead hands" when my arms start down they "leave the club behind"
due to its inertia-- and accelerate continuously through the impact
area. I exert ZERO hand control over the club either torsionally
(twisting) or with leverage. As Percy Boomer said in the 40s-- I
leave it free to centrifugally "flail."
When we do absolutely NOTHING, every ball goes right down the middle.
I hit most fairways from the tee.
The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
demonstrated in this video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
Before I learned to do that, I swung like most (99.99%) amateurs do--
which is to start down with arms BEFORE their lower body moves
forward. You very likely do what this guy demonstrates (unless you
are a low single digit handicap).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCC9uHew8kY
Larry
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 17:26:48
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message
news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> demonstrated in this video clip.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
|
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
still does in a lesser degree...
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Oct 2006 11:36:10
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:05:53 -0400, "George Hibbard"
<gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
>
>"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote in message
>news:452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>>
>> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>> news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>>
>> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>Probably for the same reason that Tiger Woods did a couple years ago and
>still does in a lesser degree...
Bottom line is that the ball goes consistently straight, right George?
Silly to focus on inconsequential details.
I like Fred Couple's Swing Thought-- "just hit it." He probably
looks at the target first, of course.
later
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:23:18
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:26:48 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com >
wrote:
>
>"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> demonstrated in this video clip.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
>Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
Who knows? Who cares? As long as I don't lag back and pivot around
my back leg and decelerate--like you and likely everyone reading this
does. I hit it straight and long with minimal effort--because
without need to think about it I preserve the wrist cock and get a
natural late release.
Don't analyze it, just do it.
Larry
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 06:58:40
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <4ctli2d167ggpr9r9e4hn4re119eqm3mkb@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:26:48 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> demonstrated in this video clip.
> >>
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
> >
> >Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>
> Who knows? Who cares? As long as I don't lag back and pivot around
> my back leg and decelerate--like you and likely everyone reading this
> does. I hit it straight and long with minimal effort--because
> without need to think about it I preserve the wrist cock and get a
> natural late release.
>
> Don't analyze it, just do it.
>
> Larry
That's really quite ironic coming from the guy who does more analyzing,
more declaring that he has found the secret (a new one every month or
two).
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 08:33:06
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:58:40 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <4ctli2d167ggpr9r9e4hn4re119eqm3mkb@4ax.com>,
> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:26:48 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>> >news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> >> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> >> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> >> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> >> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> >> demonstrated in this video clip.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>> >
>> >Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>>
>> Who knows? Who cares? As long as I don't lag back and pivot around
>> my back leg and decelerate--like you and likely everyone reading this
>> does. I hit it straight and long with minimal effort--because
>> without need to think about it I preserve the wrist cock and get a
>> natural late release.
>>
>> Don't analyze it, just do it.
>>
>> Larry
>
>That's really quite ironic coming from the guy who does more analyzing,
>more declaring that he has found the secret (a new one every month or
>two).
Yeah, silly analyzer went from beginner to 8 handicap in 5 years
starting at age 60. I quit experimenting months ago when I realized
the golf swing and even putting and has everything to do with mental
control and almost nothing to do with mechanics..... Now it is boring.
Larry
|
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 03:40:55
From: JJK
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" wrote:
> Yeah, silly analyzer went from beginner to 8 handicap in 5 years
> starting at age 60. I quit experimenting months ago when I realized
> the golf swing and even putting and has everything to do with mental
> control and almost nothing to do with mechanics..... Now it is boring.
Larry, is this your correct GHIN information?
NORTHERN CALIFORNIA GOLF ASSOC SUNNYSIDE COUNTRY CLUB
LARRY WHITTAKER USGA HANDICAP INDEX: 18.7 EFFECTIVE DATE: 10/01/2006
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 08:49:41
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 03:40:55 GMT, "JJK" <surpher@verizon.net > wrote:
>"larry" wrote:
>> Yeah, silly analyzer went from beginner to 8 handicap in 5 years
>> starting at age 60. I quit experimenting months ago when I realized
>> the golf swing and even putting and has everything to do with mental
>> control and almost nothing to do with mechanics..... Now it is boring.
>
>
>Larry, is this your correct GHIN information?
>
>NORTHERN CALIFORNIA GOLF ASSOC SUNNYSIDE COUNTRY CLUB
>LARRY WHITTAKER USGA HANDICAP INDEX: 18.7 EFFECTIVE DATE: 10/01/2006
No, but why would you care? There must be a dozen RSG regulars who
check my handicap every day before they have their breakfast. They
seem to care more about my scores than they do their own! I am
obviously their idol. It is a great responsibility.
Larry (KING of RSG)
|
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 23:58:09
From: JJK
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"larry" wrote:
> >> Yeah, silly analyzer went from beginner to 8 handicap in 5 years
> >> starting at age 60. I quit experimenting months ago when I realized
> >> the golf swing and even putting and has everything to do with mental
> >> control and almost nothing to do with mechanics..... Now it is boring.
JJK wrote:
> >Larry, is this your correct GHIN information?
> >
> >NORTHERN CALIFORNIA GOLF ASSOC SUNNYSIDE COUNTRY CLUB
> >LARRY WHITTAKER USGA HANDICAP INDEX: 18.7 EFFECTIVE DATE: 10/01/2006
"larry" wrote:
> No, but why would you care? There must be a dozen RSG regulars who
> check my handicap every day before they have their breakfast. They
> seem to care more about my scores than they do their own! I am
> obviously their idol. It is a great responsibility.
I was just wondering if your eyes needed a checkup, nothing more. I thought
that you couldn't see the 1 in front of the 8.7 that made the HC index 18.7.
Perhaps you keep your index under a non-standard system.
Your golf swing, the way you claim to play golf but don't (e.g., using more
than one ball off a tee but still record the scores), and your manners here
are hardly the stuff of idols.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:00:54
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <83fni2d308r9f6j5i99j2o4v6qbieah5r6@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 06:58:40 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <4ctli2d167ggpr9r9e4hn4re119eqm3mkb@4ax.com>,
> > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:26:48 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> >> The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> >> learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> >> hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> >> back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> >> demonstrated in this video clip.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
> >> >
> >> >Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
> >>
> >> Who knows? Who cares? As long as I don't lag back and pivot around
> >> my back leg and decelerate--like you and likely everyone reading this
> >> does. I hit it straight and long with minimal effort--because
> >> without need to think about it I preserve the wrist cock and get a
> >> natural late release.
> >>
> >> Don't analyze it, just do it.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >That's really quite ironic coming from the guy who does more analyzing,
> >more declaring that he has found the secret (a new one every month or
> >two).
>
> Yeah, silly analyzer went from beginner to 8 handicap in 5 years
> starting at age 60. I quit experimenting months ago when I realized
> the golf swing and even putting and has everything to do with mental
> control and almost nothing to do with mechanics..... Now it is boring.
> Larry
Riiiiiiiight.
Which is why you've gone from telling us all to swing like Allen Doyle
back to your use the Whippy phase.
BTW, you've never been an 8 handicap. The lowest you've ever been is an
8.8, which you'd really have to call a 9 and you've basically been stuck
at that level for an entire year.
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
'[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 12 Oct 2006 00:58:14
From: JJK
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Alan Baker" wrote:
> Which is why you've gone from telling us all to swing like Allen Doyle
> back to your use the Whippy phase.
>
> BTW, you've never been an 8 handicap. The lowest you've ever been is an
> 8.8, which you'd really have to call a 9 and you've basically been stuck
> at that level for an entire year.
Larry also claimed that he used more than one ball from the tees when he
posted his score. I don't believe his HC index.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 04:34:54
From: bill-o
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On 9-Oct-2006, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> Don't analyze it, just do it.
just doing that lateral hip slide is death, no wonder you haven't broken 80
lately! :-P
--
bill-o
A "gimme" can best be defined as an agreement between
two golfers neither of whom can putt very well.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 00:38:30
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net >,
"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote:
> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> > The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> > learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> > hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> > back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> > demonstrated in this video clip.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>
> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
Don't you know? Practically every good teacher of the golf swing says it
should be done that way!
LOL
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:24:34
From: larry
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:38:30 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org > wrote:
>In article <452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net>,
> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote:
>
>> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
>> news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
>> > The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
>> > learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
>> > hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
>> > back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
>> > demonstrated in this video clip.
>> >
>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
>>
>> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
>
>Don't you know? Practically every good teacher of the golf swing says it
>should be done that way!
Hey moron, the ball consistently goes straight and long. Only an
idiot would keep analyzing after that.
Larry
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 13:42:05
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:24:34 -0700, larry <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>Hey moron, the ball consistently goes straight and long. Only an
>idiot would keep analyzing after that.
When golf becomes a game of perfect, I will give up golf and switch to
something more interesting.
But as long as my game can continue to improve, I will endeavor to
keep learning.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Oct 2006 07:01:02
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <ehtli2lvc5j14ls0gvbfi7cbr8ptft9o9q@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:38:30 GMT, Ernie <ernie@pga.org> wrote:
>
> >In article <452ae8cf$0$10308$815e3792@news.qwest.net>,
> > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message
> >> news:l7eli2l7a0odvqjic8gfmge8gv0esogka9@4ax.com...
> >> > The big difference in my swing in the last few months is that I have
> >> > learned to consistently start my downswing with lower body-- first
> >> > hips laterally moving toward the target, then my shoulders turning
> >> > back to the address position, then my arms coming through as I
> >> > demonstrated in this video clip.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH30xEYQS0o
> >>
> >> Why do you move your head 7 inches ahead of the ball position by impact?
> >
> >Don't you know? Practically every good teacher of the golf swing says it
> >should be done that way!
>
> Hey moron, the ball consistently goes straight and long. Only an
> idiot would keep analyzing after that.
>
> Larry
Sure it does.
That's what you said when you were telling it was all about turning in a
barrel, or using the Whippy, or powering the swing with your hands, or
how powering it with your hands could only slow down your swing, or only
swing back until the clubshaft was vertical...
...you always tell us you hit it long and straight, but your "secret"
always needs to be replaced. SLAP is great, SLAP is nonsense -- on and
on it goes.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 17:10:02
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
larry wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdoctor.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>larry wrote:
>>
>>>On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dave Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
>>>>>with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>>>>>
>>>>>The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
>>>>>as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
>>>>>someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
>>>>>is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
>>>>>require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
>>>>>difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
>>>>>fundamentals are improved.
>>>>>
>>>>>From my experience that seems correct. Other
>>>>>comments/observations/experiences on this?
>>>>
>>>>I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
>>>>address.
>>>>
>>>>If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
>>>>you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
>>>>period, a week or two.
>>>
>>>We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top.
>>
>>That's not the only way. My local pro--he's a PGA pro, Larry--advocates
>>a cocking of the wrists early in takeaway.
>>
>>
>>>We get that
>>>by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
>>>together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
>>>priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
>>>there.
>>
>>I agree it's hard to have good lag and release with a tight grip.
>>
>>
>>>Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
>>>deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
>>>wrists--
>>
>>It's not the only way. See above. My pro likes the early wrist cock in
>>the swing partly as a way to model where that wrist-cock should be on
>>the way down.
>>
>>
>>>Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
>>>lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
>>>leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
>>>target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
>>>
>>>As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
>>>toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
>>>wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
>>>move across the front of our body.
>>
>>Maybe. Sure isn't how AJ Bonar teaches it.
>>
>>
>>>The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
>>>legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
>>>either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
>>>release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
>>>short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
>>
>>This also is not true.
>>
>>
>>>Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
>>>sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
>>
>>You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
>>advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
>>
>>So why do you write garbage like this?
>>
>>Mike
>
>
> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> authorities on this question--
Cite, please. Just because you say it, that doesn't make it so.
and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
No beginner is going to learn anything from you. Like most golf
magazines with swing tips adorning their pages, you're inconsistent week
to week and month to month. To say nothing of day to day.
I can't imagine a beginner turning to you for golf advice. After all,
what have you *ever* done to suggest you have the slightest clue about
the golf swing?
>
> Certainly explains who nobody should spend any time in this forum--
> except to get the latest rumor about Tiger or read lewd stuff about
> Annika's tits.
>
That must explain why you're here.
Your biggest problem, Larry, lies in the fact that you don't know very
much about what you're talking about.
Other than that, you're fine.
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Oct 2006 21:54:03
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <epidi2dr327de10vcshhhr9jpl6fmh8bv1@4ax.com >,
larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdoctor.com>
> wrote:
>
> >larry wrote:
> >> On 6 Oct 2006 03:14:56 -0700, "SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dave Lee wrote:
> >>>> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
> >>>> specifically
> >>>> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >>>>
> >>>> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
> >>>> such
> >>>> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> >>>> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
> >>>> lag
> >>>> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> >>>> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> >>>> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> >>>> fundamentals are improved.
> >>>>
> >>>> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> >>>> comments/observations/experiences on this?
> >>> I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
> >>> address.
> >>>
> >>> If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
> >>> you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
> >>> period, a week or two.
> >>
> >> We create lag by first creating a deep wrist cock on top.
> >
> >That's not the only way. My local pro--he's a PGA pro, Larry--advocates
> >a cocking of the wrists early in takeaway.
> >
> > >We get that
> >> by gripping with very loose pressure--and with our two hands tightly
> >> together and oriented to allow that to happen. The club is held
> >> priily in the last three fingers of your left hand. It swivels
> >> there.
> >
> >I agree it's hard to have good lag and release with a tight grip.
> >
> >> Then we backswing rapidly enough that the club falls or flops into the
> >> deep wrist cock from momentum, NOT from consciously cocking our
> >> wrists--
> >
> >It's not the only way. See above. My pro likes the early wrist cock in
> >the swing partly as a way to model where that wrist-cock should be on
> >the way down.
> >
> >> Then we start the downswing with lower body-- the hips making a
> >> lateral shift toward the target as we shift our weight to the front
> >> leg--AS our hips then our shoulders start to turn toward the
> >> target--leaving our hands and the club behind due to their inertia.
> >>
> >> As our shoulders turn back to about address, our hands come down
> >> toward our hips- and ideally when your hands reach your back leg the
> >> wrist cock is still full-- the entire release happens as our hands
> >> move across the front of our body.
> >
> >Maybe. Sure isn't how AJ Bonar teaches it.
> >
> >> The whole secret is the loose grip pressure and starting down with
> >> legs instead of arms or shoulders. You cannot consciously affect
> >> either the retention of the wrist cock during the downswing or the
> >> release--if you hope to hit the ball straight enough to keep it in the
> >> short grass. It must happen centrifugally.
> >
> >This also is not true.
> >
> >> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
> >> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
> >
> >You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
> >advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
> >
> >So why do you write garbage like this?
> >
> >Mike
>
> Typical RSG. Someone posts a short consensus of nearly every golf
> authorities on this question-- and one of the regulars nitpicks it to
> pieces--the result being that no beginner learns anything.
"Nearly every".
Please.
Come back when you have a golf swing that looks like something decent.
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Date: 06 Oct 2006 14:26:03
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdoctor.com >
wrote:
>> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
>> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
>
>You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
>advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
Adding the word "essentially" is a huge improvement for Larry.
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Date: 06 Oct 2006 20:28:03
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
In article <stedi2dqe7d3tnh9opr0e08oc77cav29ur@4ax.com >,
Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:58:04 -0500, Mike Dalecki <mike@clubdoctor.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Jim Flick and essentially all good teachers advise practicing the
> >> sequence of moves with the club horizontal, like a baseball bat.
> >
> >You don't have the foggiest idea what "essentially all good teachers"
> >advise. Did you take a survey of all of them? Of course not.
>
> Adding the word "essentially" is a huge improvement for Larry.
And if he'd just admit that what he means by "essentially all good
teachers" is really "all the teachers who agree with my notion of the
week"...
--
'It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix.'
"It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix'
(Edwin on Mac OS X)
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Date: 06 Oct 2006 13:40:29
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"SKIPPER" <blakestah@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1160129696.117094.228510@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag -
specifically
> > with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
> >
> > The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics
such
> > as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> > someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your
lag
> > is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> > require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> > difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> > fundamentals are improved.
> >
> > From my experience that seems correct. Other
> > comments/observations/experiences on this?
>
> I've found it is very tough if you stay the same at
> address.
>
> If you push the ball back in your stance about an inch
> you hit down on the ball more and adjust in a shorter
> period, a week or two.
>
> hth
>
> -PA
>
Ahhh, if only it were that simple in my case.
dave
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 16:38:42
From: SKIPPER
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Mike Dalecki wrote:
> Maintaining lag is harder for me with the driver, and I'm working on
> that right now. But I was told in a lesson to try to get my left
> shoulder under my chin on the backswing, and I found that while it did
> help me get a bit more power, I surely had much less control.
The caveat is that if your shoulder causes your head to move,
all is lost because you lose your frame of reference.
I stop just shy of hitting my chin to avoid that problem.
-PA
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 17:13:32
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> I ran across a comment the other day regarding improving lag - specifically
> with someone with a lot of golf and swings under their belt.
>
> The statement was (in sumy) that outstanding fundamental mechanics such
> as turn, weight shift, etc. are helpful in achieving good lag. But for
> someone with a lot of golf under their belt, the habit of whatever your lag
> is will absolutely dominate your swing. Significant lag improvement will
> require the difficult process of relearning some very ingrained, and
> difficult to control directly, habits no matter how much other swing
> fundamentals are improved.
>
> From my experience that seems correct. Other
> comments/observations/experiences on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
>
It's been a long slog for me, because of those ingrained habits.
The headcover drill--keeping headcovers tucked under the armpits during
the entire swing--helped me discover lag in a way I never felt before.
Among other things, I've found that if I have a very full turn, it's
hard to maintain lag down into the hitting area. I don't know if that's
because of ingrained habits (possible), or something physical that just
doesn't work right.
But if I cut down that swing to what probably would be described as a
3/4 swing, I have no trouble maintaining lag, and, in fact, have a
fairly powerful yet controlled swing. As a friend of mine said, I must
have some pretty significant lag if I'm hitting a gap wedge 110 yards
with spin.
Maintaining lag is harder for me with the driver, and I'm working on
that right now. But I was told in a lesson to try to get my left
shoulder under my chin on the backswing, and I found that while it did
help me get a bit more power, I surely had much less control. And since
the only club that extra length will help in the bag is the longest one,
I didn't much see the point, so long as I can drive the ball 220-250 in
the short stuff. Once i have that, the rest is relatively easy (I said
RELATIVELY!!!).
Mike
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006: June 23-25 Info: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 00:28:12
From: JJK
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Mike Dalecki" wrote:
<snip >
> Maintaining lag is harder for me with the driver, and I'm working on
> that right now. But I was told in a lesson to try to get my left
> shoulder under my chin on the backswing, and I found that while it did
> help me get a bit more power, I surely had much less control. And since
> the only club that extra length will help in the bag is the longest one,
> I didn't much see the point, so long as I can drive the ball 220-250 in
> the short stuff. Once i have that, the rest is relatively easy (I said
> RELATIVELY!!!).
Mike, I'm sure most folks here have no problems keeping their 4- and 3-iron
tee shots on the short grass.
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Date: 05 Oct 2006 23:09:33
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: On Improving Lag
|
"Mike Dalecki" <mike@dalecki.net > wrote in message
news:4olecdFf44raU1@individual.net...
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
snip
> It's been a long slog for me, because of those ingrained habits.
>
> The headcover drill--keeping headcovers tucked under the armpits during
> the entire swing--helped me discover lag in a way I never felt before.
>
> Among other things, I've found that if I have a very full turn, it's
> hard to maintain lag down into the hitting area. I don't know if that's
> because of ingrained habits (possible), or something physical that just
> doesn't work right.
>
> But if I cut down that swing to what probably would be described as a
> 3/4 swing, I have no trouble maintaining lag, and, in fact, have a
> fairly powerful yet controlled swing. As a friend of mine said, I must
> have some pretty significant lag if I'm hitting a gap wedge 110 yards
> with spin.
>
> Maintaining lag is harder for me with the driver, and I'm working on
> that right now. But I was told in a lesson to try to get my left
> shoulder under my chin on the backswing, and I found that while it did
> help me get a bit more power, I surely had much less control. And since
> the only club that extra length will help in the bag is the longest one,
> I didn't much see the point, so long as I can drive the ball 220-250 in
> the short stuff. Once i have that, the rest is relatively easy (I said
> RELATIVELY!!!).
>
> Mike
>
> --
Thanks for the comments, Mike. I'll probably pass on the headcover drill
simply for fear of re-awakening already solved problems (like my tendency to
keep my left arm glued to my chest causing me to get WAY too far inside at
the top). But the shorter swing approach is one that I'll be taking very
seriously - particularly since my inclination is to begin with 3/4 wedge
shots anyway.
dave
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