Moving to Blades

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Date: 09 Mar 2007 08:29:58
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Moving to Blades

I'm slowly replacing my 10 year old Titleist cavity backs for Nike
blades. I'm doing it one club at a time as I find good bargains on
eBay or PriceGrabber.

I started with a 5 iron and the feedback that club gave me was like
taking a lesson. I'm finding the blade is tough to hit, but I learn
instantly on each swing what I've done wrong. I'm toeing 75% of my
shots it seems, and a little correction at address has made all of my
clubs a little better. And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.

That's how you know you did it right, I suppose.

I've got a 8 iron and a wedge coming this week and the exchange will
continue.

I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
this switch.

Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
advice?

Ed

Date: 12 Mar 2007 18:27:35
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

> If
> using a cavity back would improve your accuracy when you mishit the
> ball, and therefore improve your chances of winning or placing
> higher in a tournament, what would you do?- Hide quoted text -

I've been playing a few of the blades now for a week and am finding a
lot of interesting things out about my swing. Consistently, with the
blades, I can tell I've been toeing a lot of shots. It's an
unmistakable and wrenching twist when I do it with the blades. I never
get that feeling with any cavity back club I've used. I changed my
approach a bit and I've noticed a real improvement in other parts of
my games, especially fairway woods. I even hear a different sound on
my driver and I'm hitting the ball a little further and a lot more
left.

As I noted earlier, these blades have been like taking a lesson. They
teach me a lot every time I hit them.

Now, they're the only blades I've ever played, and as others have
noted, they are a little shorter. I find myself pulling a 6 instead of
a 5 from the same spot before I had the blades, but when I hit them
well they're straight and easy and I am able to move them left to
right or right to left a lot easier with tiny adjustments of my feet
or my swing.

I don't catch all of them in the sweet spot, though, and I often think
about throwing them into Magruder's Pond on the 15th hole, but the
ones that I hit right just feel superb.

I've only got a couple more to find and I'll have my mini-set complete
(5-PW).

Ed

Date: 13 Mar 2007 08:44:53
From: Auddog
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"EdSmithers" <spirosdarlotts@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1173749255.317488.319610@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> If
>> using a cavity back would improve your accuracy when you mishit the
>> ball, and therefore improve your chances of winning or placing
>> higher in a tournament, what would you do?- Hide quoted text -
>
> I've been playing a few of the blades now for a week and am finding a
> lot of interesting things out about my swing. Consistently, with the
> blades, I can tell I've been toeing a lot of shots. It's an
> unmistakable and wrenching twist when I do it with the blades. I never
> get that feeling with any cavity back club I've used. I changed my
> approach a bit and I've noticed a real improvement in other parts of
> my games, especially fairway woods. I even hear a different sound on
> my driver and I'm hitting the ball a little further and a lot more
> left.
>
> As I noted earlier, these blades have been like taking a lesson. They
> teach me a lot every time I hit them.
>
> Now, they're the only blades I've ever played, and as others have
> noted, they are a little shorter. I find myself pulling a 6 instead of
> a 5 from the same spot before I had the blades, but when I hit them
> well they're straight and easy and I am able to move them left to
> right or right to left a lot easier with tiny adjustments of my feet
> or my swing.
>
> I don't catch all of them in the sweet spot, though, and I often think
> about throwing them into Magruder's Pond on the 15th hole, but the
> ones that I hit right just feel superb.
>
> I've only got a couple more to find and I'll have my mini-set complete
> (5-PW).
>
> Ed
>
>

I also have benefited from playing with a blade for the last couple of
years. When my handicap fell below a 10, I started looking at new clubs. I
was really surprised when I tried the set of blades at the range and found
myself hitting everything on the toe. With some changes in my stance, I
quickly starting hitting in the sweet spot. When you hit the mp32 in the
sweet spot, it's like hitting shmallows. You'll have to pry my blades
from my dead cold hands to get me from using them.

Do get me wrong, cavity back clubs have a place, but for me I like to know
when I'm hitting them pure and when I'm not. Just my preference.

A
www.swingstripe.com

Date: 12 Mar 2007 06:46:45
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On 12 , 03:11, zipper40hDIESPAMM...@netscape.net wrote:
> On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk" <tomke...@NOSPAMmail.ie>
> wrote:
>
> >1) Do all pros use blades?
>
> There's a little article in the Golf Digest Hot List issue about this.
> I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe it said that less
> than 20% of tour players use true blades. Most have some type of
> cavity back.
>

Is that because the pros really do benefit from something in the
cavity backs or because the manufacturers are using the pros to sell
clubs?
My take is that a ball struck in the middle of a club will react the
same regardless of what sort of club it is. If a change to cavity
backs makes no difference to your game, but someone will pay you $1M
to play them, what would you do?

Date: 12 Mar 2007 11:38:06
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On 12 , 03:11, zipper40hDIESPAMM...@netscape.net wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk"
>> <tomke...@NOSPAMmail.ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >1) Do all pros use blades?
>>
>> There's a little article in the Golf Digest Hot List issue about
>> this.
>> I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe it said that
>> less
>> than 20% of tour players use true blades. Most have some type of
>> cavity back.
>>
>
> Is that because the pros really do benefit from something in the
> cavity backs or because the manufacturers are using the pros to
> sell
> clubs?
> My take is that a ball struck in the middle of a club will react
> the
> same regardless of what sort of club it is. If a change to cavity
> backs makes no difference to your game, but someone will pay you
> $1M
> to play them, what would you do?
>

Not even the pros hit the ball on the sweet spot every time. If
using a cavity back would improve your accuracy when you mishit the
ball, and therefore improve your chances of winning or placing
higher in a tournament, what would you do?

Date: 12 Mar 2007 19:04:35
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:75gJh.75233$1%3.850937@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12 , 03:11, zipper40hDIESPAMM...@netscape.net wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk"
> >> <tomke...@NOSPAMmail.ie>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >1) Do all pros use blades?
> >>
> >> There's a little article in the Golf Digest Hot List issue about
> >> this.
> >> I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe it said that
> >> less
> >> than 20% of tour players use true blades. Most have some type of
> >> cavity back.
> >>
> >
> > Is that because the pros really do benefit from something in the
> > cavity backs or because the manufacturers are using the pros to
> > sell
> > clubs?
> > My take is that a ball struck in the middle of a club will react
> > the
> > same regardless of what sort of club it is. If a change to cavity
> > backs makes no difference to your game, but someone will pay you
> > $1M
> > to play them, what would you do?
> >
>
> Not even the pros hit the ball on the sweet spot every time. If
> using a cavity back would improve your accuracy when you mishit the
> ball, and therefore improve your chances of winning or placing
> higher in a tournament, what would you do?
>
I've done a good deal of experimentation with cavity backs vs.
blades/musclebacks. I guess I don't feel comfortable saying that there is no
difference (other than how it feels) on mis-hits, but the difference is
(IMHO) very small and not detectable without doing detailed/careful
measurements.

The long iron story is probably different, but I went to hybrids long ago so
didn't do any comparisons there. And I will admit that more extreme cavity
backs (not just the ones with some addition perimeter weighting around the
sides) are different animals. In fact they are basically hybrids in my mind.

dave

Date: 12 Mar 2007 23:56:11
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:7vhJh.126680$_73.34983@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:75gJh.75233$1%3.850937@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 12 , 03:11, zipper40hDIESPAMM...@netscape.net wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk"
>> >> <tomke...@NOSPAMmail.ie>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >1) Do all pros use blades?
>> >>
>> >> There's a little article in the Golf Digest Hot List issue
>> >> about
>> >> this.
>> >> I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe it said
>> >> that
>> >> less
>> >> than 20% of tour players use true blades. Most have some type
>> >> of
>> >> cavity back.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Is that because the pros really do benefit from something in
>> > the
>> > cavity backs or because the manufacturers are using the pros to
>> > sell
>> > clubs?
>> > My take is that a ball struck in the middle of a club will
>> > react
>> > the
>> > same regardless of what sort of club it is. If a change to
>> > cavity
>> > backs makes no difference to your game, but someone will pay
>> > you
>> > $1M
>> > to play them, what would you do?
>> >
>>
>> Not even the pros hit the ball on the sweet spot every time. If
>> using a cavity back would improve your accuracy when you mishit
>> the
>> ball, and therefore improve your chances of winning or placing
>> higher in a tournament, what would you do?
>>
> I've done a good deal of experimentation with cavity backs vs.
> blades/musclebacks. I guess I don't feel comfortable saying that
> there is no
> difference (other than how it feels) on mis-hits, but the
> difference is
> (IMHO) very small and not detectable without doing
> detailed/careful
> measurements.
>
> The long iron story is probably different, but I went to hybrids
> long ago so
> didn't do any comparisons there. And I will admit that more
> extreme cavity
> backs (not just the ones with some addition perimeter weighting
> around the
> sides) are different animals. In fact they are basically hybrids
> in my mind.
>
> dave
>
>

I have been following your experiments with interest. Are you using
impact tape when you do those comparisons?

Awhile ago I mentioned some studies published in the book, Golf the
Scientific Way, published by Alastair Cochrane in 1995. (Alastair
Cochrane, along with John Stobbs, wrote "The Search for the Prefect
Swing", published in 1968, the first scientific research on the golf
swing.) At the time I didn't have the book in my possession. I do
now.

In the paper "Clubhead Designs: How They Affect Ball Flight" by
Arthur Chou, senior engineer on the Titleist golf club R&D team,
Chou presents the results of several years of robot testing and
analysis of five different clubhead design parameters: head size,
weight distribution, loft, offset and mishits. They tested both
irons and woods.

The article is too long and comprehensive to even attempt to
sumize it here. I will give you some quotes from the Mishits
section that deal directly with the "comparison of dispersion and
distance losses for a traditional blade and a contemporary cavity
back 5 iron".

"The increased moment of inertia of the cavity back design results
in a shot pattern that is much more consistent than the blade. The
club face resists twisting at impact especially in the heel and toe
areas, creating longer, straighter shots in these regions. Both
clubs [blade and cavity back] experience a minimum of 6-8 yards in
distance loss on any hits located away from the centre of the club
face, but the cavity back club shows a maximum loss of only 12 yards
compared to a loss of 16 yards for the blade. In addition the cavity
back produces a maximum dispersion of 7 yards across all hitting
locations versus the blade'smaximum dispersion of 13 yards." They
also mention that overall accuracy increases with increasing loft.
i.e. accuracy differences are more evident in long irons.

"cavity back irons are more forgiving because they produce more
consistent performance from shots hit on all areas of the club
face."

"More accomplished players sometimes perceive that blades provide
more "workability" and overall feel than their cavity back
counterparts."

"Average golfers, who often miss the centre of the club face at
impact would be better served by using a cavity back club. Remember,
however, that the advantages are only for off-centre hits. Cavity
backs will not differ from traditional blades in their ability to
cope with, for example, an out-to-in open faced swing. Both will
slice!"

My own experience fitting both irons and woods has been that the
average golfer benefits in both distance and accuracy with game
improvement clubs as well. More, or less, depending on their swing
characteristics. I would say that less than 10% have had the swing
to use blades. I also encourage the use of hybrids as iron
replacement clubs from 5 iron down. Whatever makes it easier for
them to enjoy their round of golf and perhaps improve their score
without taking some lessons and practicing more. Most people don't
have the time or the inclination to perfect their swing. They just
want to have a good time playing the game.

As far as "myth" and "hype" go, I don't think you can argue with the
physics of MOI. (Just look at the size of the face of a modern day
tennis racket compared to that of forty years ago.) If there was no
benefit to the golfer from perimeter weighted, cavity back clubs
they would not be manufactured. And the argument that they are
cast, and therefore cheaper to make, doesn't hold water either. The
MP30, the X-Forged and the Apex Edge Pro, for example, are both
forged "cavity back" irons which are used extensively on the pro
tours.

Gary

Date: 13 Mar 2007 15:00:10
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:G9qJh.32158$df3.910531@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:7vhJh.126680$_73.34983@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:75gJh.75233$1%3.850937@weber.videotron.net...
> >>
> >> "Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 12 , 03:11, zipper40hDIESPAMM...@netscape.net wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk"
> >> >> <tomke...@NOSPAMmail.ie>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
snip
> > I've done a good deal of experimentation with cavity backs vs.
> > blades/musclebacks. I guess I don't feel comfortable saying that
> > there is no
> > difference (other than how it feels) on mis-hits, but the
> > difference is
> > (IMHO) very small and not detectable without doing
> > detailed/careful
> > measurements.
> >
> > The long iron story is probably different, but I went to hybrids
> > long ago so
> > didn't do any comparisons there. And I will admit that more
> > extreme cavity
> > backs (not just the ones with some addition perimeter weighting
> > around the
> > sides) are different animals. In fact they are basically hybrids
> > in my mind.
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> I have been following your experiments with interest. Are you using
> impact tape when you do those comparisons?

Often yes - and sometimes it was just hitting the ball and observing.

Let me be clear about what I really did (and more importantly) didn't do.

This started shortly after my return to golf in 2002 after a 25 year hiatus
from the game. I picked up a used (missing the 5i and the 7i face was so
rusty it was probably illegal) set of Hogan Director blades (circa 1980). I
had been using Tommy Armour Silver Scot cavity backs. I was surprised at two
things.

1) How much better I liked hitting the Hogans 'on the sweetspot' (and in
general)

2) How little penalty (if any) mis-hits had with the Hogans. They felt
worse, but really didn't seem to go worse.

I tried once to set up an experiment, but I was literally hitting into a
Polo Field with very unpredictable bounces, etc. The uncertainty introduced
by wierd bounces was probably bigger than the differences in club
performance. While a well constructed experiment could probably remove most
of this uncertainty, I wasn't going to work that hard on it. So the honest
truth is that the experiment was inconclusive. But I started playing a
somewhat newer set of Hogan blades and have been ever since.

More recently I observed that (because I am a practice hound) a couple of my
irons were showing VERY significant wear on the leading edge (our practice
area with its free range balls has us on the mats maybe 5 months/year). I
was going to have to look for a replacement and re-opened the cavity back
vs. blade.

I hit a bunch of borrowed, built on the cheap, bought from the used barrel
type 5i's and 6i's. This time I didn't even try to do a scientific
experiment and I was honestly/strongly biased toward cavity backs because I
wanted cast clubs that wouldn't wear out on the mats (had changed to cast
SW/LW a year ago because of too much wear in the practice traps). Doing this
with a bias toward a given answer tends to guarantee that you'll get that
answer.

Surprisingly, I just didn't find anything that I liked better than my
current clubs (many of the clubs that I experimented with were reshafted by
me to roughly match my current clubs, although there are still issues like
offset, etc). Also surprisingly I found that those old Tommy Armours are
without a doubt the most "muted responding clubs' that I have ever hit. The
difference between a blade/muscleback and a 'not extreme' cavity back (on
pure hits) is not as huge across the board (as best as I can tell) as I had
originally thought.

There was a time when I thought that the KZG II-M clubs were the thing. But
that was day 1. A day or so later that was less obvious to me and they had
the disadvantage of being forged. I think that KZG makes a cast version of
this club, but it is hard for an amateur to get hold of KZG's (almost have
to find what you want on the used ket).

So for now I'm sticking with my current Hogan Apex Channelbacks (1995'ish)
and looking for a deal on replacements (if you are patient you can buy a set
pretty cheap on ebay).

>
> Awhile ago I mentioned some studies published in the book, Golf the
> Scientific Way, published by Alastair Cochrane in 1995. (Alastair
> Cochrane, along with John Stobbs, wrote "The Search for the Prefect
> Swing", published in 1968, the first scientific research on the golf
> swing.) At the time I didn't have the book in my possession. I do
> now.

Interesting - I've got "Search for the Perfect Swing" and will be looking to
by the book you referenced.

>
> In the paper "Clubhead Designs: How They Affect Ball Flight" by
> Arthur Chou, senior engineer on the Titleist golf club R&D team,
> Chou presents the results of several years of robot testing and
> analysis of five different clubhead design parameters: head size,
> weight distribution, loft, offset and mishits. They tested both
> irons and woods.
>
> The article is too long and comprehensive to even attempt to
> sumize it here. I will give you some quotes from the Mishits
> section that deal directly with the "comparison of dispersion and
> distance losses for a traditional blade and a contemporary cavity
> back 5 iron".
>
> "The increased moment of inertia of the cavity back design results
> in a shot pattern that is much more consistent than the blade. The
> club face resists twisting at impact especially in the heel and toe
> areas, creating longer, straighter shots in these regions. Both
> clubs [blade and cavity back] experience a minimum of 6-8 yards in
> distance loss on any hits located away from the centre of the club
> face, but the cavity back club shows a maximum loss of only 12 yards
> compared to a loss of 16 yards for the blade. In addition the cavity
> back produces a maximum dispersion of 7 yards across all hitting
> locations versus the blade'smaximum dispersion of 13 yards." They
> also mention that overall accuracy increases with increasing loft.
> i.e. accuracy differences are more evident in long irons.
>
> "cavity back irons are more forgiving because they produce more
> consistent performance from shots hit on all areas of the club
> face."
>
> "More accomplished players sometimes perceive that blades provide
> more "workability" and overall feel than their cavity back
> counterparts."
>
> "Average golfers, who often miss the centre of the club face at
> impact would be better served by using a cavity back club. Remember,
> however, that the advantages are only for off-centre hits. Cavity
> backs will not differ from traditional blades in their ability to
> cope with, for example, an out-to-in open faced swing. Both will
> slice!"
>
> My own experience fitting both irons and woods has been that the
> average golfer benefits in both distance and accuracy with game
> improvement clubs as well. More, or less, depending on their swing
> characteristics. I would say that less than 10% have had the swing
> to use blades. I also encourage the use of hybrids as iron
> replacement clubs from 5 iron down. Whatever makes it easier for
> them to enjoy their round of golf and perhaps improve their score
> without taking some lessons and practicing more. Most people don't
> have the time or the inclination to perfect their swing. They just
> want to have a good time playing the game.
>
> As far as "myth" and "hype" go, I don't think you can argue with the
> physics of MOI. (Just look at the size of the face of a modern day
> tennis racket compared to that of forty years ago.) If there was no
> benefit to the golfer from perimeter weighted, cavity back clubs
> they would not be manufactured. And the argument that they are
> cast, and therefore cheaper to make, doesn't hold water either. The
> MP30, the X-Forged and the Apex Edge Pro, for example, are both
> forged "cavity back" irons which are used extensively on the pro
> tours.
>

I'd be very interested in a link/whatever to the Chou article.

As I mentioned I found the more extreme cavity backs to truly be a different
animal. I chose not to go that path, but am still toying with replacing my
5i with a hybrid.

> Gary
>

dave

Date: 13 Mar 2007 18:22:52
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:_%yJh.126938$_73.72179@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:G9qJh.32158$df3.910531@wagner.videotron.net...
>>

>>
>> Awhile ago I mentioned some studies published in the book, Golf
>> the
>> Scientific Way, published by Alastair Cochrane in 1995. (Alastair
>> Cochrane, along with John Stobbs, wrote "The Search for the
>> Prefect
>> Swing", published in 1968, the first scientific research on the
>> golf
>> swing.) At the time I didn't have the book in my possession. I
>> do
>> now.
>
> Interesting - I've got "Search for the Perfect Swing" and will be
> looking to
> by the book you referenced.
>

It's out of print. I see one for sale on Ebay right now for 60$.
Well worth every penny. There are about 50 scientific papers
presented covering all aspects of golf like clubs, shafts, balls,
equipment & golf wear, fitness, statistics and the golf course. One
of my buddies has a paper in the statistics section.

>>
>> In the paper "Clubhead Designs: How They Affect Ball Flight" by
>> Arthur Chou, senior engineer on the Titleist golf club R&D team,
>> Chou presents the results of several years of robot testing and
>> analysis of five different clubhead design parameters: head size,
>> weight distribution, loft, offset and mishits. They tested both
>> irons and woods.

>
> I'd be very interested in a link/whatever to the Chou article.

I've never seen it online. You'll have to buy the book.

>
> As I mentioned I found the more extreme cavity backs to truly be a
> different
> animal. I chose not to go that path, but am still toying with
> replacing my
> 5i with a hybrid.
>

I don't know if I like them either. I assume you mean clubs like the
Ping G5's, Big Bertha, etc. They certainly aren't nice to look at
when you are used to playing Hogan's. They do have their place and
when properly fitted they sure make it easy for the average golfer
to get the ball up in the air.

Gary

Date: 13 Mar 2007 23:48:15
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:mnGJh.112685$1%3.1405376@weber.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:_%yJh.126938$_73.72179@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> snip
> >
> > As I mentioned I found the more extreme cavity backs to truly be a
> > different
> > animal. I chose not to go that path, but am still toying with
> > replacing my
> > 5i with a hybrid.
> >
>
> I don't know if I like them either. I assume you mean clubs like the
> Ping G5's, Big Bertha, etc. They certainly aren't nice to look at
> when you are used to playing Hogan's. They do have their place and
> when properly fitted they sure make it easy for the average golfer
> to get the ball up in the air.
>
> Gary

Yep - see my recent thread titled "Well Crap-I'm an Equipment Snob"

dave

Date: 10 Mar 2007 16:29:25
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On Sat, 10 2007, EdSmithers wrote:

>> Does that include shipping? At those prices you are looking at about
>> $200 for a set of irons at least. You can go to any used golf shop
>> and there are plenty of blades in that price range and probably much
>> lower.
>
> Yes, those prices include shipping. And I agree that I could get a set
> of some kind of blades for that price, but the ones I'm buying are
> Nike forged blades, especially the 2004 model, and those are selling
> variously online from about 499 -899 a set. Polar Golf, for example,
> sells a set for $699.
>
> And I must admit, as noted earlier, I get a charge out of tracking
> down clubs in this way. My driver, for example, a Ping G5, I got for
> $4 + $8 shipping because the eBay lister had mistakenly typed in "PNIG
> DRIVER" when he was putting it up on eBay. I won a bar bet once on
> that one when I produced a receipt for it.

Good for you. One of the nice things about any hobby is the
miscellany that grows up around it.

Date: 10 Mar 2007 03:41:48
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

> Does that include shipping? At those prices you are looking at about
> $200 for a set of irons at least. You can go to any used golf shop
> and there are plenty of blades in that price range and probably much
> lower.

Yes, those prices include shipping. And I agree that I could get a set
of some kind of blades for that price, but the ones I'm buying are
Nike forged blades, especially the 2004 model, and those are selling
variously online from about 499 -899 a set. Polar Golf, for example,
sells a set for $699.

And I must admit, as noted earlier, I get a charge out of tracking
down clubs in this way. My driver, for example, a Ping G5, I got for
$4 + $8 shipping because the eBay lister had mistakenly typed in "PNIG
DRIVER" when he was putting it up on eBay. I won a bar bet once on
that one when I produced a receipt for it.

Ed

Date: 10 Mar 2007 02:58:44
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On Fri, 9 2007, EdSmithers wrote:

>
>> I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
>> spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
>> disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
>> trigger on a matched set.
>
>
> Good question from a number of you.
>
> I think I'm saving a ton of money as I got the 5 iron for $21
> (including shipping), the 8 iron for $17, and the wedge for $38. I
> only use 5-PW anyway, so those 6 clubs will most assuredly cost me
> less than a full set. I have a club-making buddy who will do the
> matching for me for some bottles of beer.
>
> Plus, I get a kick out of finding stuff. I did a good check of past
> sales and availability of clubs on eBay and these forged blades come
> up often enough that I don't suspect I'll be unable to find the
> remaining pieces.
>
> Cheers,
> Ed
>
>
>
Does that include shipping? At those prices you are looking at about
$200 for a set of irons at least. You can go to any used golf shop
and there are plenty of blades in that price range and probably much
lower.

Date: 10 Mar 2007 02:56:36
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On Fri, 9 2007, Ben. wrote:

> On 9, 10:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I started with a 5 iron and the feedback that club gave me was like
>> taking a lesson. I'm finding the blade is tough to hit, but I learn
>> instantly on each swing what I've done wrong. I'm toeing 75% of my
>> shots it seems, and a little correction at address has made all of my
>> clubs a little better. And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
>> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
>> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.
>>
>> That's how you know you did it right, I suppose.
>>
>> I've got a 8 iron and a wedge coming this week and the exchange will
>> continue.
>>
>> I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
>> this switch.
>>
>> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
>> advice?
>
> I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
> spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
> disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
> trigger on a matched set.
>
> Aside from that - I commend you on moving away from the "game
> improvement" golf keting machine. Blades will give you that
> instant feedback...in the form of a poor shot and some pain. I will
> say, the only feedback you SHOULD be getting once you move to blades
> is that a shot was off center. If you aren't making good contact most
> of the time, you have no business looking to equipment to solve your
> problems. Get some lessons.
>
> FWIW, the only real difference between an off-center shot w/ blades
> and one with cavity backs is a nominal loss in distance. I find the
> appearance of most cavity back clubs distracting. The clubhead so far
> behnd the shaft, the size of the club - just feels wrong at
> address.
>
>

Agreed, if you are in your 50's and cannot hit the ball square
already you should probably not be trying blades. However, it's
your game so who cares but you. Go for it. God knows I have
tried everything to try and sink a few putts.

Bottom line, get those blades and hit about 200 shots a day off
of hardpan. You will see improvement.

Date: 10 Mar 2007 09:14:03
From: Tom K
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Zuke" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:Pine.OSX.4.64.0703100254100.22305@ucfilespace.uc.edu...
> On Fri, 9 2007, Ben. wrote:
>
>> On 9, 10:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I started with a 5 iron and the feedback that club gave me was like
>>> taking a lesson. I'm finding the blade is tough to hit, but I learn
>>> instantly on each swing what I've done wrong. I'm toeing 75% of my
>>> shots it seems, and a little correction at address has made all of my
>>> clubs a little better. And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
>>> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
>>> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.
>>>
>>> That's how you know you did it right, I suppose.
>>>
>>> I've got a 8 iron and a wedge coming this week and the exchange will
>>> continue.
>>>
>>> I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
>>> this switch.
>>>
>>> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
>>> advice?
>>
>> I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
>> spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
>> disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
>> trigger on a matched set.
>>
>> Aside from that - I commend you on moving away from the "game
>> improvement" golf keting machine. Blades will give you that
>> instant feedback...in the form of a poor shot and some pain. I will
>> say, the only feedback you SHOULD be getting once you move to blades
>> is that a shot was off center. If you aren't making good contact most
>> of the time, you have no business looking to equipment to solve your
>> problems. Get some lessons.
>>
>> FWIW, the only real difference between an off-center shot w/ blades
>> and one with cavity backs is a nominal loss in distance. I find the
>> appearance of most cavity back clubs distracting. The clubhead so far
>> behnd the shaft, the size of the club - just feels wrong at
>> address.
>>
>>
>
> Agreed, if you are in your 50's and cannot hit the ball square
> already you should probably not be trying blades. However, it's
> your game so who cares but you. Go for it. God knows I have
> tried everything to try and sink a few putts.
>
> Bottom line, get those blades and hit about 200 shots a day off
> of hardpan. You will see improvement.

You'll probably see a few bills from an orthopedist for elbow problems
too...

--Tom

Date: 09 Mar 2007 20:12:15
From: EdSmithers
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

> I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
> spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
> disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
> trigger on a matched set.

Good question from a number of you.

I think I'm saving a ton of money as I got the 5 iron for $21
(including shipping), the 8 iron for $17, and the wedge for $38. I
only use 5-PW anyway, so those 6 clubs will most assuredly cost me
less than a full set. I have a club-making buddy who will do the
matching for me for some bottles of beer.

Plus, I get a kick out of finding stuff. I did a good check of past
sales and availability of clubs on eBay and these forged blades come
up often enough that I don't suspect I'll be unable to find the
remaining pieces.

Cheers,
Ed

Date: 09 Mar 2007 12:51:49
From: dugjustdug
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On 9, 8:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.

> Ed

Ladies & Gentlemen, in a nutshell, that is the essence of playing
blades. Funnyazzhell, Smithers.

Get the whole set and have them set up for you by someone who knows
what they are doing. The 75% toeing phenomenon could be a lie
adjustment issue more than anything.

I made the jump to Hogan's and love them. Mizuno is great as are
MacGregor or Cleveland.

-dug -- > Cavityback Free since 2001

Date: 09 Mar 2007 22:00:36
From: tomk
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

1) Do all pros use blades?

2) Do blades come in larger size heads - or is that a stupid q?

Thank You

TK

Date: 11 Mar 2007 22:11:01
From:
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On Fri, 9 2007 22:00:36 -0000, "tomk" <tomkelly@NOSPAMmail.ie >
wrote:

>1) Do all pros use blades?

There's a little article in the Golf Digest Hot List issue about this.
I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe it said that less
than 20% of tour players use true blades. Most have some type of
cavity back.

>
>2) Do blades come in larger size heads - or is that a stupid q?

Depends on the manufacturer.

>
>Thank You
>
>TK
>

Craig
"Nothing matters but the weekend, from a Tuesday point of view."

Date: 10 Mar 2007 11:46:09
From:
Subject: Re: Sports Betting

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Date: 09 Mar 2007 22:51:01
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

tomk wrote:
> 1) Do all pros use blades?

Nope. Callaway doesn't make a blade, and the Ping "blade" isn't.
>
> 2) Do blades come in larger size heads

Various mfgrs have various sizes for their blades. Nike is smaller than
Mizuno, for example.

--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.

Date: 10 Mar 2007 07:45:51
From: Rex
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

Snip..... >
> I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
> this switch.
>
> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
> advice?
>
>
> Ed

I would also recommend getting full set at once. There are plenty of old
blades and muscle backs out there. I use Mizuno TP 19 that came onto
European ket about 1990. I recently purchased the latest demo club
(Mizuno MP32) for almost nothing and there is little difference between the
old and the new. Shafts are much the same - DG s400 and Dg s300.

Rex

Date: 09 Mar 2007 10:03:01
From: dgeesaman@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On 9, 11:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.

Seriously funny. And true.

> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
> advice?

I made a similar switch several years ago, and have been using the
same Cleveland TA1 musclebacks. Got the set in like-new shape for
$400.

The size of the heads still affects forgiveness. The 1970-era
Titleists that first set my muscleback affections in motion are even
smaller in size. I personally would prefer to keep to a larger size
head.

Dave

Date: 09 Mar 2007 17:48:03
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

EdSmithers wrote:
> I'm slowly replacing my 10 year old Titleist cavity backs for Nike
> blades. I'm doing it one club at a time as I find good bargains on
> eBay or PriceGrabber.
>
SNIP
>
> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
> advice?
>
I think the Nike blades are gorgeous, but they are smaller than some of
the others, such as the Mizuno MP33, the gold standard for muscleback
blades. I have 2-W in the old MP-11 and love 'em. I have the same
reactions you do; when it's perfect, it's perfect. When it's not, it's a
little dribble a few yards down the fairway.

I recommend a full purchase as well. There are bargains to be found,
look for Dunlop Australian Blades, perhaps you'll find some Clevelands
or old Hogans. What ever you choose, get the full set. What happens if
you never find a Nike 7 iron?

--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.

Date: 09 Mar 2007 09:01:55
From: Ben.
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

On 9, 10:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com > wrote:

> I started with a 5 iron and the feedback that club gave me was like
> taking a lesson. I'm finding the blade is tough to hit, but I learn
> instantly on each swing what I've done wrong. I'm toeing 75% of my
> shots it seems, and a little correction at address has made all of my
> clubs a little better. And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.
>
> That's how you know you did it right, I suppose.
>
> I've got a 8 iron and a wedge coming this week and the exchange will
> continue.
>
> I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
> this switch.
>
> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
> advice?

I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
trigger on a matched set.

Aside from that - I commend you on moving away from the "game
improvement" golf keting machine. Blades will give you that
instant feedback...in the form of a poor shot and some pain. I will
say, the only feedback you SHOULD be getting once you move to blades
is that a shot was off center. If you aren't making good contact most
of the time, you have no business looking to equipment to solve your
problems. Get some lessons.

FWIW, the only real difference between an off-center shot w/ blades
and one with cavity backs is a nominal loss in distance. I find the
appearance of most cavity back clubs distracting. The clubhead so far
behnd the shaft, the size of the club - just feels wrong at
address.

Date: 09 Mar 2007 23:07:45
From: Tom K
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Ben." <kombi45@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1173459715.787679.61880@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On 9, 10:29 am, "EdSmithers" <spirosdarlo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I started with a 5 iron and the feedback that club gave me was like
>> taking a lesson. I'm finding the blade is tough to hit, but I learn
>> instantly on each swing what I've done wrong. I'm toeing 75% of my
>> shots it seems, and a little correction at address has made all of my
>> clubs a little better. And when I hit the sweet spot of that 5 iron
>> it's like buttah. The sun embraces me, the ball flies high and smooth,
>> and a tuning fork goes off in my big ass.
>>
>> That's how you know you did it right, I suppose.
>>
>> I've got a 8 iron and a wedge coming this week and the exchange will
>> continue.
>>
>> I'm in my mid 50s and shoot in the high 80s, and am glad I'm trying
>> this switch.
>>
>> Anyone else make a similar move to blades who could add some ideas and
>> advice?
>
> I just have one question - why not buy them all at once? You're gonna
> spend way too much time, money and effort having a steady flow of
> disparate clubs matched - shafts, grips, loft, lie. Just pull the
> trigger on a matched set.
>
> Aside from that - I commend you on moving away from the "game
> improvement" golf keting machine. Blades will give you that
> instant feedback...in the form of a poor shot and some pain. I will
> say, the only feedback you SHOULD be getting once you move to blades
> is that a shot was off center. If you aren't making good contact most
> of the time, you have no business looking to equipment to solve your
> problems. Get some lessons.

Some of us, as we age, no longer have the muscle control to consistently hit
dead center any more... and I've had lessons (in fact I had a few last year
to continue to work on my swing). But the muscles just can't do it any
more. I played blades when I was in my 30's. Now in my mid 50's, blades
and lessons won't help correct what the muscles can't do. Lesson's won't
help my problem - aging. Game improvement irons do.

--Tom

Date: 09 Mar 2007 21:25:35
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"Tom K" <tkanitra@optonline.net > wrote in message
news:naqIh.658$c46.5@newsfe12.lga...
> Now in my mid 50's, blades and lessons won't help correct what the
> muscles can't do. Lesson's won't help my problem - aging. Game
> improvement irons do.
>
> --Tom

No such thing as game improvement clubs. A myth.
Blades are equally forgiving, maybe more forgiving than cavity backs.
Off center shots may feel harsh with a blade, but the result is not worse.

Date: 10 Mar 2007 09:09:47
From: Tom K
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:45f23342$0$25786$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "Tom K" <tkanitra@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:naqIh.658$c46.5@newsfe12.lga...
>> Now in my mid 50's, blades and lessons won't help correct what the
>> muscles can't do. Lesson's won't help my problem - aging. Game
>> improvement irons do.
>>
>> --Tom
>
> No such thing as game improvement clubs. A myth.
> Blades are equally forgiving, maybe more forgiving than cavity backs.
> Off center shots may feel harsh with a blade, but the result is not worse.
>

I'm going to disagree with your logic from this perspective. If I no longer
can maintin swing consistency to hit the sweet spot consistency, then I get
more deviation toward each end of the face of the club. With a larger face,
there's more room to avoid a shank or toe hit, simply because the shank and
toe are a bit further away from the center. Even if I eliminate my 1 shank
a round that I sometimes get... that's game improvement in my book. Might
be the difference between shooting 80 vs. 79 on a good day.

--Tom

Date: 10 Mar 2007 12:50:50
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades

"glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote in message
news:45f23342$0$25786$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
>
> "Tom K" <tkanitra@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:naqIh.658$c46.5@newsfe12.lga...
> > Now in my mid 50's, blades and lessons won't help correct what the
> > muscles can't do. Lesson's won't help my problem - aging. Game
> > improvement irons do.
> >
> > --Tom
>
> No such thing as game improvement clubs. A myth.
> Blades are equally forgiving, maybe more forgiving than cavity backs.
> Off center shots may feel harsh with a blade, but the result is not worse.
>
>

I've done a lot of experimenting with blades vs. cavity backs. I came to the
conclusion that there is very little (if any) additional forgiveness
available from a typical/moderate cavity back design (one piece
construction, just some additional perimeter weighting) vs. a
blade/muscleback (at least for 5i up - not so sure about long irons).

However, I also believe that for more radical cavity back designs such as
the Callaway Big Bertha irons, there really is a difference. These types of
irons feel like hitting hybrids. In fact if you look at them they kind of
are like hybrids. If I was going to make that kind of change I'd just
replace my 5i and 6i with higher lofted hybrids that match my 23* and 26*
hybrids (my 3i and 4i's). In this case there is a feel/forgiveness
trade-off, IMHO. I am going for feel even though it may not be the best for
my game.

dave

Date: 10 Mar 2007 00:29:00
From: Martin Levac
Subject: Re: Moving to Blades