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Date: 23 Sep 2006 16:34:55
From: TiVo
Subject: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
agreement to waive the rules.
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 12:06:22
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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Cool.
All we have to do now is bring ourselves to politely decline someone's
request to go out of turn and risk the ever ready moniker of
"Pedant"... :-(
Thanks for taking the time to thrash this one out.
Aress Gee wrote:
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
>
> > I can see that the answer to my dilemma rests on the outcome of whether
> > or not rule 10-1c is intended to cover:
> > i) Any play out of turn.
> > ii) Play out of turn where the opponent(s) is / are not a willing
> > party.
> > I believe that (ii) is the intention and therefore decision 1-3/1
> > applies to an agreement to play out of turn.
> > I apologise if I'm confusing the issue but I'm not sure what you meant
> > by "absent an agreement between the sides" in your post.
>
> If an agreement has been made by the sides then Rule 1-3 applies.
>
> Otherwise, whether the player who played out of turn did so
> intentionally or inadvertantly, Rule 10-1c applies.
>
> --
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 10:13:32
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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I can see that the answer to my dilemma rests on the outcome of whether
or not rule 10-1c is intended to cover:
i) Any play out of turn.
ii) Play out of turn where the opponent(s) is / are not a willing
party.
I believe that (ii) is the intention and therefore decision 1-3/1
applies to an agreement to play out of turn.
I apologise if I'm confusing the issue but I'm not sure what you meant
by "absent an agreement between the sides" in your post.
Aress Gee wrote:
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
>
> > I think that in the situation I describe, all parties have agreed to
> > playing out of turn therefore rule 10-1c can not apply as that is (I
> > believe) only for inadvertantly playing out of turn.
>
> Any play out of turn in match play (absent an agreement between
> the sides) is addressed by Rule 10-1c. Decision 27-2b/1 illustrates
> a situation where a player intentionally plays out of turn in a
> match.
>
> --
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 12:32:32
From: Aress Gee
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > writes:
> I can see that the answer to my dilemma rests on the outcome of whether
> or not rule 10-1c is intended to cover:
> i) Any play out of turn.
> ii) Play out of turn where the opponent(s) is / are not a willing
> party.
> I believe that (ii) is the intention and therefore decision 1-3/1
> applies to an agreement to play out of turn.
> I apologise if I'm confusing the issue but I'm not sure what you meant
> by "absent an agreement between the sides" in your post.
If an agreement has been made by the sides then Rule 1-3 applies.
Otherwise, whether the player who played out of turn did so
intentionally or inadvertantly, Rule 10-1c applies.
--
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 12:35:32
From: William A. T. Clark
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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In article <1159054495.762780.324350@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > wrote:
> When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> agreement to waive the rules.
I think that it is only the "team" that is away in fourball. They can
elect to have either member putt first, regardless of where their ball
is.
William Clark
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:57:56
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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I think that in the situation I describe, all parties have agreed to
playing out of turn therefore rule 10-1c can not apply as that is (I
believe) only for inadvertantly playing out of turn.
Aress Gee wrote:
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
>
> > Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> > was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> > "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> > away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> > taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> > him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> > piece of action.
> > I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> > this time.
> >
> > Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> > question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> > "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> > allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> > For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> > off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> > believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> > to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
>
> Does "arrange to play out of turn" mean that the sides have agreed
> to waive Rule 10-1b? If so, then both sides are disqualified under
> Rule 1-3.
>
> If "arrange to play out of turn" means only that a player (with
> no agreement with a player from the opposing side) has played
> out of turn then Rule 10-1c applies.
>
> --
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 10:08:12
From: Aress Gee
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > writes:
> I think that in the situation I describe, all parties have agreed to
> playing out of turn therefore rule 10-1c can not apply as that is (I
> believe) only for inadvertantly playing out of turn.
Any play out of turn in match play (absent an agreement between
the sides) is addressed by Rule 10-1c. Decision 27-2b/1 illustrates
a situation where a player intentionally plays out of turn in a
match.
--
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:45:16
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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Certainly, you've attached to the reply I wrote where I said "If Casey
was furthest away, then there's no problem".
sfb wrote:
> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
>
>
> SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
>
> In Best Ball, order of play is determined by the side furthest away not the
> individual balls. The side first to play may play either ball first.
>
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> wrote in message
> news:1159106276.563822.231010@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> > was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> > "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> > away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> > taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> > him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> > piece of action.
> > I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> > this time.
> >
> > Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> > question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> > "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> > allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> > For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> > off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> > believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> > to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
> > Aress Gee wrote:
> >> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> >> > fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> >> > Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> >> > caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> >> > agreement to waive the rules.
> >>
> >> Two questions:
> >>
> >> Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
> >> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
> >>
> >> --
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> >> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> >> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:43:20
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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Certainly, you've attached to the reply I wrote where I said "If Casey
was furthest
sfb wrote:
> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
>
>
> SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
>
> In Best Ball, order of play is determined by the side furthest away not the
> individual balls. The side first to play may play either ball first.
>
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> wrote in message
> news:1159106276.563822.231010@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> > was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> > "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> > away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> > taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> > him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> > piece of action.
> > I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> > this time.
> >
> > Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> > question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> > "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> > allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> > For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> > off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> > believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> > to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
> > Aress Gee wrote:
> >> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> >> > fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> >> > Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> >> > caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> >> > agreement to waive the rules.
> >>
> >> Two questions:
> >>
> >> Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
> >> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
> >>
> >> --
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> >> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> >> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:39:50
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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It's just a fa=E7ade :-)
Tough or not, is my interpretation correct? It would please me greatly
to feel that I'm allowed to say "Yes, of course you can come on" but
I'm not sure if the rules permit it.
johnty wrote:
> TiVo wrote:
>
> > For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> > off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> > believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> > to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
>=20
> Disqualifyable? For playing out of turn? You are a tough man.
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:32:04
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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Certainly, you've quoted my reply where I wrote "If Casey was furthest
> > away, then there's no problem."
sfb wrote:
> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
>
>
> SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
>
> In Best Ball, order of play is determined by the side furthest away not the
> individual balls. The side first to play may play either ball first.
>
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> wrote in message
> news:1159106276.563822.231010@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> > was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> > "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> > away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> > taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> > him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> > piece of action.
> > I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> > this time.
> >
> > Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> > question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> > "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> > allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> > For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> > off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> > believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> > to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
> > Aress Gee wrote:
> >> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> >> > fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> >> > Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> >> > caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> >> > agreement to waive the rules.
> >>
> >> Two questions:
> >>
> >> Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
> >> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
> >>
> >> --
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> >> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> >> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> >> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:23:47
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
|
TiVo wrote:
> For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
Disqualifyable? For playing out of turn? You are a tough man.
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 07:18:48
From: Big_Fan
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
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TiVo wrote:
> When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> agreement to waive the rules.
I don't see this, so I don't know if this applies, but the team that is
away can have either player hit. This happens most commonly when
someone with a long putt for birdie will putt out to secure the par.
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 06:57:56
From: TiVo
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
|
Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
"Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
piece of action.
I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
this time.
Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
"Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
Aress Gee wrote:
> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
>
> > When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> > fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> > Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> > caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> > agreement to waive the rules.
>
> Two questions:
>
> Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
>
> --
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 09:39:28
From: Aress Gee
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
|
"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > writes:
> Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> piece of action.
> I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> this time.
>
> Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
Does "arrange to play out of turn" mean that the sides have agreed
to waive Rule 10-1b? If so, then both sides are disqualified under
Rule 1-3.
If "arrange to play out of turn" means only that a player (with
no agreement with a player from the opposing side) has played
out of turn then Rule 10-1c applies.
--
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
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Date: 24 Sep 2006 10:07:06
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
|
Have you read Rule 30-3c?
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
In Best Ball, order of play is determined by the side furthest away not the
individual balls. The side first to play may play either ball first.
"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > wrote in message
news:1159106276.563822.231010@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Unfortunately, I was only able to watch the highlights on TV and there
> was no information available other than the commentator mentioning
> "Karlsson opting to play before the Americans". If Casey was furthest
> away, then there's no problem. I had the highlights recorded and I've
> taken another look but you know what producers are like; they cut from
> him missing the putt to the American's birdie then off to the next
> piece of action.
> I'd be interested if anyone can recall the position of Casey's ball at
> this time.
>
> Assuming Casey was furthest (therefore game over for the original
> question), I'd like to turn this into a general inquiry...
> "Am I correct in my interpretation that in match play you are never
> allowed to arrange to play out of turn?"
> For example, in stroke play, we all commonly allow players who are just
> off the green but significantly closer to the pin to "come on first". I
> believe that in match play, this ought to be disqualifyable according
> to my interpretation if it is not that side's turn to play.
> Aress Gee wrote:
>> "TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net> writes:
>>
>> > When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
>> > fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
>> > Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
>> > caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
>> > agreement to waive the rules.
>>
>> Two questions:
>>
>> Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
>> Have you read Rule 30-3c?
>>
>> --
>> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
>> Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
>> Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
>> +++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 19:19:57
From: Aress Gee
Subject: Re: Karlsson Plays out of Turn in Ryder Cup Fourball
|
"TiVo" <googlegroups@hussey.uk.net > writes:
> When the players agreed to let Karlsson putt out of turn in Saturdays
> fourball match at the 10th, were they not in breach of rule 1-3?
> Decision 1-3/1 seems to describe a similar situation, and rule 10-1
> caters for accidental breach of the rule whereas this was surely an
> agreement to waive the rules.
Two questions:
Whose ball was farthest from the hole?
Have you read Rule 30-3c?
--
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. People who use golf as some sort of status
Aress symbol are destined to go unfulfilled.
Gee -- Golf's Most Beloved Figure
+++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|
|
