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Date: 30 Aug 2006 04:40:03
From: rich
Subject: Jack's majors, in detail
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I saw this on another message board and thought some here would find this an
interesting compendium of Jack's majors:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Runaways:
'65 Masters - Jack shot 64 on Saturday and won going away by 9 shots over
Palmer and Player.
'73 PGA - Jack cruised to 4-shot victory over Crampton that wasn't that
close. This win broke Bobby Jones' record (when amateur events were
considered majors).
'80 PGA - at age 40 Jack cruised to a 7-shot victory over Andy Bean for his
2nd major title that year.
Close, but not that close:
'63 PGA - Jack was depressed after the blowing the Open (he finished
bogey-bogey to miss out on a playoff by a shot) and not in a good frame of
mind, but played steady golf and won by 2 shots over Dave Ragan.
'67 US Open - the site of the infamous 1-iron up the hill 240 yards at
Baltusrol's 18th hole, it was more interesting than significant (in 2005
Phil Mickelson tapped the plaque commemorating that shot, for good luck). In
fact, Jack had locked up the tournament by then, and ended up winning by 4
over Palmer. It close for awhile so it wasn't a runaway.
'71 PGA - Jack went wire-to-wire and won by 2 over Billy Casper. Casper
mounted a late charge but Jack played steady golf and never let him really
threaten.
'72 Masters - Jack tried to play giveaway in the final round with a 3-putt
bogey on 11, a 3-putt par on 13, a 3-putt bogey on 14, and another bogey on
the par 5 15th. But no one could mount a real charge on a tough scoring day.
Jack ended up winning by 3 shots over Crampton, Weiskopf, and Mitchell.
'72 US Open - The infamous 1-iron to 2 inches of the cup on #17 sealed a
3-shot victory over Crampton.
'75 PGA - Jack won again over Crampton by 2 shots. The hole of the
tournament of Jack's miracle par on 'the Monster' (#16 at Firestone, the
hole Pez thinks is so easy). Jack was staring at a double-bogey and hit a
miraculous 9-iron through the trees onto the back of the green, then holed a
35-foot putt to keep command of the tournament.
'80 US Open - Wire-to-wire victory that wasn't sealed until a birdie on #17
sealed a 2-shot victory over the stubborn Isao Aoki.
Close calls:
'62 US Open - Jack and Palmer both missed very makeable putts on 18 to win
in regulation. In the playoff, Jack took control midway through, survived an
Arnie 'charge', and then won by 3.
'63 Masters - Jack gave away a lead but Gary Player, Sam Snead, and Julios
Boros all had a rash of bogeys over the final holes. Only Tony Lema was able
to get under par by making a birdie on #18, forcing Jack to birdie #16 to
win. Jack's final score of -2 won by 1 shot over Lema.
'66 Masters - Jack missed 12-foot and 4-foot birdie putts on #16 and #17
respectively to miss out on winning the tournament outright. This created an
18-hole playoff with Jack, Gay Brewer, and Tommy Jacobs. Brewer did his part
to help Jack - he bogeyed #18 missing a 7-foot par putt or there never would
have been a playoff. Fortunately for Jack, Brewer blew up in the playoff
shooting 78, and Jacobs shot an indifferent 72. Jack's 70 was good enough to
win the playoff by 2 shots.
'66 Open - Jack birdied the par 5 17th at Muirfield (hitting a 2nd shot
5-iron 240 yards no less) to win by 1 shot over Doug Sanders (that name will
come up again). One of Jack's better victories - if Jack could have
duplicated his 3-4-4 finish in '72 at Muirfield, who knows with the Grand
Slam.
'70 Open - Well chronicled event where Doug Sanders blew a 3-footer on #18
to not win the championship outright. Jack won the 18-hole playoff the next
day with a birdie on #18 that just did slip in the right edge of the cup.
What is less well known is that Jack tried to play giveaway in regulation -
he 3-putted 3 of the last 5 holes to give Sanders the chance he had to win.
'75 Masters - Well chronicled duel with Weiskopf and Miller, this was one of
the greatest tournaments ever played. Jack of course won by a shot as both
Miller and Weiskopf missed very makeable birdie putts on 18.
'78 Open - Simon Owen bogeyed #16 and #17 while Jack birdied #16, for a
3-shot swing that allowed Jack to win by 2 over Owen and Ben Crenshaw.
'86 Masters - Probably the most chronicled tournament in history. Jack of
course played brilliantly over the final nine holes and got a little help
from Greg Norman at the end to win by a shot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response was:
"'72 Masters - Jack tried to play giveaway in the final round with a 3-putt
bogey on 11, a 3-putt par on 13, a 3-putt bogey on 14, and another bogey on
the par 5 15th. But no one could mount a real charge on a tough scoring day.
Jack ended up winning by 3 shots over Crampton, Weiskopf, and Mitchell.
'72 US Open - The infamous 1-iron to 2 inches of the cup on #17 sealed a
3-shot victory over Crampton.
'75 PGA - Jack won again over Crampton by 2 shots. The hole of the
tournament of Jack's miracle par on 'the Monster' (#16 at Firestone, the
hole Pez thinks is so easy). Jack was staring at a double-bogey and hit a
miraculous 9-iron through the trees onto the back of the green, then holed a
35-foot putt to keep command of the tournament. "
Wow, if Crampton had won a coupe of majors he could have been Jack's Els.
And if Tiger won a major after 3 3-putts and a bogied par 5 on the final 9
all we would hear is how the other players just collapse and how much better
the competition used to be for Jack.
Nice job of sorting these out.
Rich
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 00:06:03
From: gpsman
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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rich wrote: <brevity snip >
> I saw this on another message board and thought some here would find this an
> interesting compendium of Jack's majors:
> '67 US Open - the site of the infamous 1-iron
That's famous, not infamous.
A nit pick... for which I'm infamous.
-----
- gpsman
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 04:34:50
From: Carbon
Subject: Re: New putter tomorrow!
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On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 04:22:00 +0000, rob wrote:
> "Carbon" <nobrac@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.09.02.03.34.57.523406@nospam.verizon.net...
>> Just got a call from my pro. My first new putter in twenty years came
>> in today, a special order (2 up, 33") Scotty Cameron Newport 2. Putting
>> has always been the worst part of my game and I fully expect this new
>> putter to take many strokes off my handicap.
>>
>> Or not. :-). I don't care. It looks cool, I wanted it. That's what
>> buying golf equipment is all about, right?
> for kicks, i looked on ebay. they wanted 700 for a used one! for that
> kind of money, there should be a laser guiding system and a computer
> controlled hydraulic mechanism that shoots it the exact amount of feet
> you tell it with your remote control. :)
Some Scotty Camerons are going for pretty decent money. My pro has one
with a black head that apparently is worth that much. The one I'm getting
retails for $300 new, which is outrageous enough.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 05:17:04
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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rich wrote:
> I saw this on another message board and thought some here would find this an
> interesting compendium of Jack's majors:
Anybody compile any stats such as
How many times was jack leading or tied for the lead after 54 holes,
and how many of those did he win? (Tiger is 12/12 as we know).
How many were come from behind after 54 holes?
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 20:37:30
From: David
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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On 31 Aug 2006 05:17:04 -0700, "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>
>rich wrote:
>> I saw this on another message board and thought some here would find this an
>> interesting compendium of Jack's majors:
>
>Anybody compile any stats such as
>
>How many times was jack leading or tied for the lead after 54 holes,
>and how many of those did he win? (Tiger is 12/12 as we know).
>
>How many were come from behind after 54 holes?
During the broadcast of the PGA Championships, I believe that they
said Jack won his first ten where he was leading, or tied after 54
holes.
David
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 14:38:06
From: rich
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1157026624.619471.160020@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> rich wrote:
>> I saw this on another message board and thought some here would find this
>> an
>> interesting compendium of Jack's majors:
>
> Anybody compile any stats such as
>
> How many times was jack leading or tied for the lead after 54 holes,
> and how many of those did he win? (Tiger is 12/12 as we know).
>
> How many were come from behind after 54 holes?
I've actually thought about doing that but now that school is back in I
don't have the time. But if I see it anywhere else I'll post it here.
Rich
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 01:22:59
From: multi
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 04:40:03 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com > wrote:
>'72 Masters - Jack tried to play giveaway in the final round with a 3-putt
>bogey on 11, a 3-putt par on 13, a 3-putt bogey on 14, and another bogey on
>the par 5 15th. But no one could mount a real charge on a tough scoring day.
>Jack ended up winning by 3 shots over Crampton, Weiskopf, and Mitchell.
This looks like a job for Wadkins. I guess Jack was right when he
said he had a lot of majors handed to him. And it looks like Crampton
may be TBPTHNWAM. Thanks for the post.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 02:54:08
From: rich
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:7ciaf21nlod51f3m8cf293o1kd9mttpj47@4ax.com...
> This looks like a job for Wadkins. I guess Jack was right when he
> said he had a lot of majors handed to him. And it looks like Crampton
> may be TBPTHNWAM. Thanks for the post.
Here is another post by the same guy analyzing Jack's second place finishes:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With all the hoopla about Tiger versus Jack, how Jack's 19 seconds shows how
much other players of his era stepped up, etc. it seemed like looking at
Jack's second place finishes warranted closer scrutiny.
After looking closer, they seemed to fit into 3 categories:
Runaways (6) - Jack was 2nd or T2 but never had a chance
Close but not that close (5) - Jack was 2nd or T2 but it wasn't as close as
it looked
Close calls (8) - either Jack blew it (which happened more often than many
realize), the competitor made some great shots, or some combination thereof.
Before laying out the categories, a few observations:
o Trevino and Watson were the only players that fought Jack tooth and nail
down the stretch and won.
o While some players clearly did step up against Jack, Jack did play his
share of giveaway.
o Jack realistically could have won the close calls. Of these he gave away
about half, so perhaps Jack lost 4-5 majors due to competitors really
stepping up.
Here they are:
Runaways:
'64 Masters - Palmer won going away by 6 strokes; Jack was T2 with Dave
r.
'64 Open - Tony Lema won going away by 5 strokes. Jack finished 2nd but was
never in it.
'64 PGA - Bobby Nickols won by 3 strokes going wire-to-wire; Jack was T2
with Palmer.
'68 US Open - Trevino won going away by 4 strokes; first player to shoot
four US Open rounds in the 60's; Jack had to shoot a final round 67 to get
within 4 strokes. Never close.
'76 Open - Johnny Miller won going away by 6 strokes. Jack shot 69 the last
round to get a back-door T2 with Seve Ballesteros, who shot 74 the last
round.
'79 Open - Seve Ballesteros won going away by 3 strokes and it wasn't that
close. Jack got a back-door T2, but Crenshaw was the only serious challenger
until he double-bogeyed the 17th hole.
Close, but not that close:
'65 PGA - Dave r won by two - Jack tied second with Billy Casper. The
pivotal hole was the par 5 11th where Jack bogeyed with two poor chips while
r birdied.
'67 Open - Robert De Vicenzo beat Jack by two strokes - no one else was
close. Can you say Rich Beem or Michael Campbell?
'68 Open - Gary Player beats Jack and Bob Charles by two strokes. Player
actually battled all day with Charles and Billy Casper. Jack was the chaser
all day and never could get closer than 2 shots.
'81 Masters - Jack and Johnny Miller were T2 behind Watson by 2 strokes.
Jack had to birdie 15 and 16 to get within 2 shots of Watson, who played a
conservative back 9 and cruised home.
'83 PGA - Jack lost by a stroke to Hal Sutton. Sutton had a 5-stroke lead
with 7 to play. Sutton got a little sloppy and let Jack get close, but never
let him close enough to tie for the lead.
Close calls
'60 US Open - While Palmer 'charged' to victory by 2 shots, Jack had to work
pretty hard to lose this one. With a one-shot lead, he missed an 18-inch
putt on the 13th hole, 3-putted the 14th hole, missed a 3-footer on 16, then
missed a 5-footer on 18. Ben Hogan was later quoted as saying he played with
a kid 'who should have won by 10 shots'.
71 Masters - Tied for the lead after 3 rounds, Jack 3-putted 4 greens in
route to an indifferent 72 and lost by two shots to Charles Coody; Johnny
Miller was T2 with Nicklaus.
'71 US Open - Trevino caught Jack with a final-round 69 and won the playoff
the next day by 3. Remember that in the playoff Jack gave away the lead
early by failing to get out of bunkers on both #2 and #3.
'72 Open - Well chronicled end to the Grand Slam hopes as Jack lost by one
to Trevino. Tied for the lead the last round, Jack bogeyed the 16th hole and
then failed to birdie the par 5 17th. Trevino of course did hit the miracle
chip on 17 to stay one ahead, while Tony Jacklin fell apart and finished
3rd.
'74 PGA - Jack missed a makeable putt on 18 that would have tied Trevino
(even though according to legend Jack never missed a putt he needed on 18),
thus losing by a shot.
'77 Masters - Watson birdied 17 to take the lead. Jack, playing the group
ahead of Watson, then bogeyed 18 and Watson cruised home with a 2-shot
victory.
'77 Open - Well chronicled duel in the sun between Nicklaus and Watson.
Remember though, that Jack missed a 4-foot birdie putt on 17 that would have
kept him tied for the lead, as Watson did birdie 17.
'82 US Open - Well chronicled loss to Watson when Watson chipped in on 17,
then also birdied 18 to win by 2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 01:40:53
From: multi
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:54:08 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com > wrote:
>Here is another post by the same guy analyzing Jack's second place finishes:
Thanks again. Where are you finding these posts?
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 03:41:19
From: rich
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:v38df2lq4s3t6ahspctj65ra4cidlbjm95@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:54:08 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com> wrote:
>>Here is another post by the same guy analyzing Jack's second place
>>finishes:
>
> Thanks again. Where are you finding these posts?
Here's another one. The guy's handle is Jugglepin, btw. He deserves the
credit.
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Jack finished 3rd or T3 in majors 9 times and had golden opportunities in a
few of them to win. The details are:
Never close:
'66 US Open - was 7 strokes out of the infamous Palmer/Casper playoff, after
Palmer had let a 7-shot lead slip away on the back 9.
'76 Masters - lost by 11 strokes to Raymond Floyd, who obliterated the
field.
'74 Open - lost by 5 shots to Gary Player. Peter Oosterhaus was 2nd.
Close but not that close:
'62 PGA - T3, 3 shots adrift of Gary Player. Bob Goalby finished 2nd a shot
back.
'73 Masters - Jack shot a final round 66 to get a backdoor T3 behind Tommy
Aaron and JC Snead.
'75 Open - Jack was T3 with Johnny Miller and Bobby Cole a shot behind the
Tom Watson / Jack Newton playoff (that Watson won). Johnny Miller bogeyed
the last hole to miss the playoff. Newton and Cole also dropped some shots
coming in down the stretch. Jack was out early and posted a pretty good
round of 72 in the wind at Carnoustie, but it wasn't quite enough.
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda:
'63 Open - Jack finished bogey / bogey and missed the Phil Rogers / Bob
Charles playoff by a shot.
'67 PGA - Don January and Don Massengale overtook Jack and Dan Sikes (the
3rd round leader) by a shot. January won the playoff. Jack only gives the
whole thing a couple of sentences in his book, saying he shot 'an
indifferent' final round. I can't find much else out about this one.
'77 PGA - Jack bogeyed #17 the final round and missed the Lanny Wadkins /
Gene Littler playoff by a stroke.
Also note that in the '75 US Open at Medinah, Jack bogeyed the last 3 holes
and missed the Lou Graham / John Mahaffey playoff by 2 strokes. He finished
T7.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 14:36:22
From: rich
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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"multi" <multi@asm.org > wrote in message
news:v38df2lq4s3t6ahspctj65ra4cidlbjm95@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:54:08 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com> wrote:
>>Here is another post by the same guy analyzing Jack's second place
>>finishes:
>
> Thanks again. Where are you finding these posts?
The Golf Channel message boards, most of which are dreck but which
occasionally contain a gem.
Rich
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 18:00:15
From: rich
Subject: Re: Jack's majors, in detail
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"rich" <dummy@nothere.com > wrote in message
news:GtCJg.39284$NF3.26834@trnddc05...
>
> "multi" <multi@asm.org> wrote in message
> news:v38df2lq4s3t6ahspctj65ra4cidlbjm95@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:54:08 GMT, "rich" <dummy@nothere.com> wrote:
>>>Here is another post by the same guy analyzing Jack's second place
>>>finishes:
>>
>> Thanks again. Where are you finding these posts?
>
> The Golf Channel message boards, most of which are dreck but which
> occasionally contain a gem.
>
Here's another from a different guy with the handle GOBADGER1
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Another way to look at it is who would be player of the year in each year
they match up?" This is pure speculation..but since majors and wins dominate
the player of the year voting I will try to guess....I will also simply
throw out Tiger's 2 wins in 1996 and consider the 2006 year to be over
(those two adjustments should both cut in Jack's favor as now Tiger has only
50 wins in the period and any firther wins tis year..wont be counted)
Year 1-- Tiger 1997 (4 wins, 1 major) Jack 1962 (3 wins, 1 major)...Player
of the Year Tiger..Woods 1 Nicklaus Zero
Year 2-- Tiger 1998 (1 win zero majors) Jack 1963 (5 wins, 2 majors) Player
of the Year.. Jack.. Woods 1 Nicklaus 1
Year 3-- Tiger 1999 (8 wins, 1 major) Jack 1964 (4 wins, 0 majors) Player of
the Year.. Tiger..Woods 2 nicklaus 1
Year 4-- Tiger 2000 (9 wins,3 majors) Jack 1965 (5 wins, 1 major).. Player
of the year Tiger..Woods 3 Nicklaus 1
Year 5-- Tiger 2001 (5 wins, 1 major) Jack 1966 (3 wins, 2 majors) Player of
the Year Jack..Woods 3 Nicklaus 2
Year 6-- Tiger 2002 (5 wins, 2 majors) Jack 1967 (5 wins, 1 major) Player of
the Year... Tiger... Woods 4 Nicklaus 2
Year 7-- Tiger 2003 (5 wins, 0 majors) Jack 1968 (2 wins, 0 majors) Player
of the Year..Tiger... Woods 5 Nicklaus 2
Year 8-- Tiger 2004 (1 win, 0 majors) Jack 1969 (3 wins, 0 majors) Player of
the Year.. Jack ..Woods 5 Nicklaus 3
Year 9-- Tiger 2005 (6 wins, 2 majors) Jack 1970 (3 wins, 1 major) Player of
the Year..Tiger Woods 6 Nicklaus 3
Year 10 Tiger 2006 (6 wins, 2 majors) Jack 1971 (5 wins, 1 major)...Player
of the Year..Tiger...Woods 7 nicklaus 3
---------------------------------------------------------
Some notes..
* The only year where I feel it was really close between them is their first
year...Tiger had the extra win which put him over the top in my book..but
Jack had more top 10's (16-9) so it s not beyond imagination that Jack would
have won this year closing the gap to Tiger 6 Jack 4. The other year that
might cause discssion is Jack's 1967 versus Tiger's 2002. Jack had 11 top
3's and 16 Top 10's. But Tiger had an extra major AND 11 top 3s and 13 top
10's. So the extra major more than offsets to extra top 10's. In the other
years I gave Tiger, Tiger's win or major total was enough above Jack to give
him clearer wins, in my match up.
* It should be noted that the PGA Tour player of the year award began in
1990, it is voted on by Tour players.. The PGA of America has been giving
out its Player of the Year award since 1948..through a point system (wins,
top 10 finishes, bonus for wins in majors, plus the player's standing on the
money list and scoring average).
* Jack was leading money winner on tour 4 times in this time period..Tiger 6
times
* It is interesting how Tiger and Jack both did not win majors in years 7
and 8
* Rekably..Jack, in real life, only won the Player of the Year once in
this time period (1967)..Tiger has won 7 of 10 years (and likely 8 as he is
the prohibitive favorite in 2006)
* It should be noted that Jack really picks up his performance in years 11
and 12. He wins 7 times each year and 3 majors over the time period..so
tiger will have to go if he doesnt want the gap to close to 7-5. JAck also
won 4 Player of the year awards in the years 1972-1976
* Nicklaus had an amazing 163 top 10's out of about 225 events (72% Top
10's) in the time period.. Tiger has 130 Top 10's out of 201 events (65% top
10's). Amazing for both but more amazing for Jack.
*Jack averaged 3.3 more Top 10's a year..and about 1.2 more 2nds..These
numbers are unlikely to offset Tigers average of 1.4 more wins over the
period as wins are worth much more than seconds and other high finishes.
tiger also averaged .3 additonal majors vicotories increasing that gap..
So the ACTUAL numbers suggest that Tiger has been superior over the first 10
years..but as I said, Jack really kicks it up over years 11-16 so Tiger will
have to go to keep up with Jack's pace of achievment...
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Seemslike a pretty even-handed analysis to me.
Rich
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