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Main
Date: 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38
From: larryrsf
Subject: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145-- he discusses what he
thinks is the most important fundamental concept for development of a
good golf swing.
He says that we must keep the clubhead inside a line drawn just outside
the ball and extending to the target and back behind the golfer.
There are several vitally important benefits in learning to swing like
that.
First, Your backswing must be "one piece" with the shoulders turning
the arms--and the arms not independently moving back.
Secondly, you MUST move all your weight to your front foot before
impact. If you lag back even a little, you will be forced to swing the
hands outward from the body-- and then dragging the clubhead back
across the ball from out-to-in, imparting slice spin.
So simply staying inside the line forces us (1) to start our downswing
by moving our hips forward--which shifts our weight to our front leg.
(2) It forces us to keep our dominant arm elbow in--returning
immediately to our side, and (3)the hands must be dropped straight down
while the shoulders are still turned--
So draw a line in the grass and hit balls inside it.
Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
"Golden Grail" of golf learning.
Larry
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 18:58:09
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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Sparky wrote:
> On 21-Sep-2006, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
> > I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> > swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> > absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score in the low
> > 70s......
>
>
> What a load of BS. I know several people that have a swing that'd make
> Furyk cringe yet consistantly break 80. I also know some who have
> "perfect" swings that couldn't break 80 if ya paid em'. The only move
> necessary to shooting 70's consistantly is quality approach shots and
> being able to get up and down like a monkey's uncle when you miss. You
> don't even have to be a good putter just a decent one.
But... before those wonderful approach skills and short game skills can
kick in... you must first put the ball in play from the tee. My skills
are good enough to shoot in the 70's every time out and in the mid-70's
or better often. But my tee game is severely limiting my ability to
score. This game cannot be played well at any level unless you have
some mastery of all the facets involved.
But I do agree with you that how the swing looks has very little to do
with how it performs. It's just not a good indictor at all.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 22:53:08
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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larryrsf wrote:
> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145-- he discusses what he
> thinks is the most important fundamental concept for development of a
> good golf swing.
>
> He says that we must keep the clubhead inside a line drawn just outside
> the ball and extending to the target and back behind the golfer.
>
> There are several vitally important benefits in learning to swing like
> that.
>
> First, Your backswing must be "one piece" with the shoulders turning
> the arms--and the arms not independently moving back.
>
> Secondly, you MUST move all your weight to your front foot before
> impact. If you lag back even a little, you will be forced to swing the
> hands outward from the body-- and then dragging the clubhead back
> across the ball from out-to-in, imparting slice spin.
>
> So simply staying inside the line forces us (1) to start our downswing
> by moving our hips forward--which shifts our weight to our front leg.
> (2) It forces us to keep our dominant arm elbow in--returning
> immediately to our side, and (3)the hands must be dropped straight down
> while the shoulders are still turned--
>
> So draw a line in the grass and hit balls inside it.
>
> Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
>
> Larry
Bobby Jones also once said:" The golf swing is too complex to be
controlled objectively, by what you've consciously learned." From:
Extraordinary Golf.
He said he played by instincts he honed after practice combined with
playing.
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 12:06:12
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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On 21 Sep 2006 22:53:08 -0700, "pete z" <pz0326@aol.com > wrote:
>Bobby Jones also once said:" The golf swing is too complex to be
>controlled objectively, by what you've consciously learned." From:
>Extraordinary Golf.
>He said he played by instincts he honed after practice combined with
>playing.
Yep. We can't play at his level without having fundamentals learned
well enough that they are natural.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 18:27:55
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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Alan Illeman wrote:
> I enjoyed Gallwey's Inner Game but haven't read it for quite some time.
>
> What I'm getting at is, maybe we can devise some simple exercises, not
> necessarily golf related, to feel just one part of the body accelerating on
> top of another. For example in soccer, or football in your case, the ball
> isn't just kicked with the foot alone. Do soccer/football coaches teach
> the uninitiated to kick with the body/hips/thighs/legs/feet? Maybe we
> could learn a think or two from them. Similarly in boxing, you don't get
> a knockout blow with just the fist. I'm sure there's many other examples
> in other sports. My question is 'How do THEY learn to maximize their
> overlapping accelerations, and thus their potential?'.
I think you're asking the wrong questions. When Larry Bird hit a
3-pointer I guarantee you he wasn't thinking about all that mumbo jumbo
like what angle to cock his wrist or how far to follow through on the
release. He probably wasn't thinking about anything except the back of
the rim. IOW, he was thinking TARGET.
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 06:18:06
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message news:1158888475.035244.146290@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Alan Illeman wrote:
> > I enjoyed Gallwey's Inner Game but haven't read it for quite some time.
> >
> > What I'm getting at is, maybe we can devise some simple exercises, not
> > necessarily golf related, to feel just one part of the body accelerating on
> > top of another. For example in soccer, or football in your case, the ball
> > isn't just kicked with the foot alone. Do soccer/football coaches teach
> > the uninitiated to kick with the body/hips/thighs/legs/feet? Maybe we
> > could learn a think or two from them. Similarly in boxing, you don't get
> > a knockout blow with just the fist. I'm sure there's many other examples
> > in other sports. My question is 'How do THEY learn to maximize their
> > overlapping accelerations, and thus their potential?'.
>
> I think you're asking the wrong questions. When Larry Bird hit a
> 3-pointer I guarantee you he wasn't thinking about all that mumbo jumbo
> like what angle to cock his wrist or how far to follow through on the
> release. He probably wasn't thinking about anything except the back of
> the rim. IOW, he was thinking TARGET.
I asked "How do THEY learn", not "How do THEY play". Maybe I should
rephrase that to "How did (past tense) they ... "
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 02:57:48
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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On 21 Sep 2006 18:27:55 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com >
wrote:
>I think you're asking the wrong questions. When Larry Bird hit a
>3-pointer I guarantee you he wasn't thinking about all that mumbo jumbo
>like what angle to cock his wrist or how far to follow through on the
>release. He probably wasn't thinking about anything except the back of
>the rim. IOW, he was thinking TARGET.
How about taking free throws and practice?
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 06:22:02
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message news:n8k6h21qfh18f601s0g1eiefh137cobnqj@4ax.com...
> On 21 Sep 2006 18:27:55 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I think you're asking the wrong questions. When Larry Bird hit a
> >3-pointer I guarantee you he wasn't thinking about all that mumbo jumbo
> >like what angle to cock his wrist or how far to follow through on the
> >release. He probably wasn't thinking about anything except the back of
> >the rim. IOW, he was thinking TARGET.
>
> How about taking free throws and practice?
See my reply to annika1980. Not even you or I should be "thinking about all
that mumbo jumbo" when playing.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 18:23:41
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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Alan Illeman wrote:
> > "Swing in a circle."
> > It really isn't much more complicated than that.
>
> If only it was that simple.
>
> Viewed from overhead the body pivot executes an infinite number of
> partial circles, as the centers of these circles move from address into
> the backswing and then the downswing and finish.
>
> Viewed from down the line, we have all the circles or planes that the
> individual body parts, hips, shoulders, arms, etc., move on and/or shift
> between.
>
> Let's not forget all the lever mechanisms of all the body parts, from the
> feet to the hands, one accelerating over another to provide that effortless
> power (instead of powerless effort) to control and accelerate the clubhead
> not just to, but through, impact with the ball.
Sounds to me like you're more interested in studying physics than
hitting a golf ball.
I believe Homer Kelly wrote a book that you might like. Of course, he
probably never broke 80.
You can break the swing down into millions of parts if you like, seeing
what the body does at the atomic level, but it won't help you hit the
ball any better. To do that, you gotta swing in a circle. Master that
move before you go talking about priy accumulators and other
worthless shit.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 21:55:39
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1158888221.636109.226210@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Alan Illeman wrote:
>> > "Swing in a circle."
>> > It really isn't much more complicated than that.
>>
>> If only it was that simple.
>>
>> Viewed from overhead the body pivot executes an infinite number of
>> partial circles, as the centers of these circles move from address into
>> the backswing and then the downswing and finish.
>>
>> Viewed from down the line, we have all the circles or planes that the
>> individual body parts, hips, shoulders, arms, etc., move on and/or shift
>> between.
>>
>> Let's not forget all the lever mechanisms of all the body parts, from the
>> feet to the hands, one accelerating over another to provide that
>> effortless
>> power (instead of powerless effort) to control and accelerate the
>> clubhead
>> not just to, but through, impact with the ball.
>
> Sounds to me like you're more interested in studying physics than
> hitting a golf ball.
> I believe Homer Kelly wrote a book that you might like. Of course, he
> probably never broke 80.
> You can break the swing down into millions of parts if you like, seeing
> what the body does at the atomic level, but it won't help you hit the
> ball any better. To do that, you gotta swing in a circle. Master that
> move before you go talking about priy accumulators and other
> worthless shit.
As much as I enjoy a good discussion about golf swing mechanics, you have
truly hit the nail on the head.
What actually happens in the golf swing is way too much for a pea-brain like
me to think about when swinging the club. I have to FEEL like I'm swinging
in a circle, and then the rest of it more or less takes care of itself.
Randy
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 06:44:39
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message news:XI6dnVte1osI347YnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1158888221.636109.226210@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Alan Illeman wrote:
> >> > "Swing in a circle."
> >> > It really isn't much more complicated than that.
> >>
> >> If only it was that simple.
> >>
> >> Viewed from overhead the body pivot executes an infinite number of
> >> partial circles, as the centers of these circles move from address into
> >> the backswing and then the downswing and finish.
> >>
> >> Viewed from down the line, we have all the circles or planes that the
> >> individual body parts, hips, shoulders, arms, etc., move on and/or shift
> >> between.
> >>
> >> Let's not forget all the lever mechanisms of all the body parts, from the
> >> feet to the hands, one accelerating over another to provide that
> >> effortless
> >> power (instead of powerless effort) to control and accelerate the
> >> clubhead
> >> not just to, but through, impact with the ball.
> >
> > Sounds to me like you're more interested in studying physics than
> > hitting a golf ball.
> > I believe Homer Kelly wrote a book that you might like. Of course, he
> > probably never broke 80.
> > You can break the swing down into millions of parts if you like, seeing
> > what the body does at the atomic level, but it won't help you hit the
> > ball any better. To do that, you gotta swing in a circle. Master that
> > move before you go talking about priy accumulators and other
> > worthless shit.
>
>
> As much as I enjoy a good discussion about golf swing mechanics, you have
> truly hit the nail on the head.
>
> What actually happens in the golf swing is way too much for a pea-brain like
> me to think about when swinging the club. I have to FEEL like I'm swinging
> in a circle, and then the rest of it more or less takes care of itself.
>
> Randy
Randy, I'm not talking about PLAYING, I'm talking about LEARNING. What
I'm saying is that in other sports besides golf, players have to learn to maximise
acceleration.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 16:14:14
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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RB wrote:
> larryrsf wrote:
> > Carbon wrote:
> >> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
> >>
> >>> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
> >> Let us know when you break 90.
> >
> > I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> > even become a pretty good putter.
> >
> > Larry
> >
>
> What is your definition of *routinely*?
>
> On the surface, if that were indeed the case, I would figure that every
> other round you play is at least a 79 or better, and probably no ESC
> strokes considering how consistent you are. Surely you are shooting
> some mid 70's rounds every 3rd or 4th time, no?
>
> That said, your handicap index should be somewhere in the 5-7 category,
> maybe up to an 8 or so if the course you play is very short and easy.
> Local knowledge contributes to "homer" indexes.
Tell that to the Celebrity Tour--which plays our course and the winner
scores not much below par-- the score spread looks like every other pro
tournament. You would be lucky to shoot near your handicap on Morgan
Run.
>
> Please don't bother with the usual "who cares about nits?" or "just
> another nutcase regular!" comments. I'd just like to know what exactly
> you mean by the statement, "I break 80 routinely."
I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score in the low
70s, to hit most fairways and greens. Statistically only 5% do it
right--likely you and certainly 95% others hit the ball with too much
weight on your back foot-- consequently your full swing accuracy is so
erratic that you cannot consistently score. In every club including
mine, that means that a dozen or fewer golfers swing correctly-- they
are the Club Champion and those who score with him. It doesn't matter
much about the relative difficulty of a golf course to that class of
golfer; they can score anyplace because they hit it consistently
straight.
Every teaching pro will admit that it is next to impossible for a late
beginning golfer to learn to properly shift his weight during the golf
swing. I wanted to be one of the few who persisted and learned that.
I sacrificed 90% of playing opportunities in order to spend hours on
the range drilling.
Now I am in that exclusive club. In the last week or so I got it. I
won the long drive hole Saturday and my swing now automatically
includes the weight shift during the transition. I don't have to think
about it, it just happens. I can do it slowly or rapidly. It is
mine. Accordingly I hit the ball staighter and effortless longer than
I ever have--by far.
Watch my scores from this day forward.
Larry
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 00:33:09
From: Sparky
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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On 21-Sep-2006, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score in the low
> 70s......
What a load of BS. I know several people that have a swing that'd make
Furyk cringe yet consistantly break 80. I also know some who have
"perfect" swings that couldn't break 80 if ya paid em'. The only move
necessary to shooting 70's consistantly is quality approach shots and
being able to get up and down like a monkey's uncle when you miss. You
don't even have to be a good putter just a decent one.
me
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 20:28:08
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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In article <1IudnTg1FvVOHYnYnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d@giganews.com >,
"Sparky" <biff@funco.com > wrote:
> On 21-Sep-2006, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
> > I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> > swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> > absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score in the low
> > 70s......
>
>
> What a load of BS. I know several people that have a swing that'd make
> Furyk cringe yet consistantly break 80. I also know some who have
> "perfect" swings that couldn't break 80 if ya paid em'. The only move
> necessary to shooting 70's consistantly is quality approach shots and
> being able to get up and down like a monkey's uncle when you miss. You
> don't even have to be a good putter just a decent one.
>
> me
I'm with you on this. One of the older guys I play with has a horrible
reverse pivot and yet his ball is long and straight. Generally scores
in the high 70's with an occasional under par round...
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Date: 23 Sep 2006 01:22:02
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
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The golden grail is the cup of death. The holy grail is made of wood, or so I'm
told!
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 01:44:21
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> Every teaching pro will admit that it is next to impossible for a late
> beginning golfer to learn to properly shift his weight during the golf
> swing. I wanted to be one of the few who persisted and learned that.
> I sacrificed 90% of playing opportunities in order to spend hours on
> the range drilling.
>
> Now I am in that exclusive club. In the last week or so I got it. I
> won the long drive hole Saturday and my swing now automatically
> includes the weight shift during the transition. I don't have to think
> about it, it just happens. I can do it slowly or rapidly. It is
> mine. Accordingly I hit the ball staighter and effortless longer than
> I ever have--by far.
>
> Watch my scores from this day forward.
>
> Larry
>
Ya know ... what I *really* like about Larry is his modesty. That, and
how many times he's says "I got it". 8^)
Rob
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 19:08:54
From: RB
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> RB wrote:
>> larryrsf wrote:
>>> Carbon wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
>>>> Let us know when you break 90.
>>> I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
>>> even become a pretty good putter.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>> What is your definition of *routinely*?
>>
>> On the surface, if that were indeed the case, I would figure that every
>> other round you play is at least a 79 or better, and probably no ESC
>> strokes considering how consistent you are. Surely you are shooting
>> some mid 70's rounds every 3rd or 4th time, no?
>>
>> That said, your handicap index should be somewhere in the 5-7 category,
>> maybe up to an 8 or so if the course you play is very short and easy.
>> Local knowledge contributes to "homer" indexes.
>
> Tell that to the Celebrity Tour--which plays our course and the winner
> scores not much below par-- the score spread looks like every other pro
> tournament. You would be lucky to shoot near your handicap on Morgan
> Run.
And you would be lucky to break 90 at any RSG event.
>> Please don't bother with the usual "who cares about nits?" or "just
>> another nutcase regular!" comments. I'd just like to know what exactly
>> you mean by the statement, "I break 80 routinely."
>
> I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score
<snip remainder of monologue >
>
> Watch my scores from this day forward.
>
> Larry
>
Okay, *now* can you explain what is meant by your phrase of hours ago,
"I break 80 routinely."? Do you mean that you *intend* to break 80
routinely? Do you mean that you break 80 but don't post, or put higher
scores in the computer?
Seriously, what do you mean?
--
Ron
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 00:18:43
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
In article <B7mdndWNjK8NtI7YnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@csinet.net >,
RB <probablyfake@madeup.com > wrote:
> larryrsf wrote:
> > RB wrote:
> >> larryrsf wrote:
> >>> Carbon wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
> >>>> Let us know when you break 90.
> >>> I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> >>> even become a pretty good putter.
> >>>
> >>> Larry
> >>>
> >> What is your definition of *routinely*?
> >>
> >> On the surface, if that were indeed the case, I would figure that every
> >> other round you play is at least a 79 or better, and probably no ESC
> >> strokes considering how consistent you are. Surely you are shooting
> >> some mid 70's rounds every 3rd or 4th time, no?
> >>
> >> That said, your handicap index should be somewhere in the 5-7 category,
> >> maybe up to an 8 or so if the course you play is very short and easy.
> >> Local knowledge contributes to "homer" indexes.
> >
> > Tell that to the Celebrity Tour--which plays our course and the winner
> > scores not much below par-- the score spread looks like every other pro
> > tournament. You would be lucky to shoot near your handicap on Morgan
> > Run.
>
> And you would be lucky to break 90 at any RSG event.
>
>
> >> Please don't bother with the usual "who cares about nits?" or "just
> >> another nutcase regular!" comments. I'd just like to know what exactly
> >> you mean by the statement, "I break 80 routinely."
> >
> > I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> > swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> > absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score
>
> <snip remainder of monologue>
>
> >
> > Watch my scores from this day forward.
> >
> > Larry
> >
>
> Okay, *now* can you explain what is meant by your phrase of hours ago,
> "I break 80 routinely."? Do you mean that you *intend* to break 80
> routinely? Do you mean that you break 80 but don't post, or put higher
> scores in the computer?
>
> Seriously, what do you mean?
He means he breaks 80 exactly as often as he fails to break 90: about
once every 12 rounds.
Except we know in one of those sub-80 rounds he cheated...
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 03:17:44
From: JJK
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"Ernie" wrote:
<snip >
> Except we know in one of those sub-80 rounds he cheated...
Larry didn't cheat, he simply played a game (i.e., two ball per hole) other
than golf.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 23:47:40
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
In article <1158880454.793864.111210@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> RB wrote:
> > larryrsf wrote:
> > > Carbon wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
> > >> Let us know when you break 90.
> > >
> > > I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> > > even become a pretty good putter.
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> >
> > What is your definition of *routinely*?
> >
> > On the surface, if that were indeed the case, I would figure that every
> > other round you play is at least a 79 or better, and probably no ESC
> > strokes considering how consistent you are. Surely you are shooting
> > some mid 70's rounds every 3rd or 4th time, no?
> >
> > That said, your handicap index should be somewhere in the 5-7 category,
> > maybe up to an 8 or so if the course you play is very short and easy.
> > Local knowledge contributes to "homer" indexes.
>
> Tell that to the Celebrity Tour--which plays our course and the winner
> scores not much below par-- the score spread looks like every other pro
> tournament. You would be lucky to shoot near your handicap on Morgan
> Run.
You're repeating this lie again?
> >
> > Please don't bother with the usual "who cares about nits?" or "just
> > another nutcase regular!" comments. I'd just like to know what exactly
> > you mean by the statement, "I break 80 routinely."
>
> I have been on a project to learrn a correct weight shift during the
> swing 'transition" between backswing and downswing. That move is
> absolutely necessary for any golfer to consistently score in the low
> 70s, to hit most fairways and greens. Statistically only 5% do it
> right--likely you and certainly 95% others hit the ball with too much
> weight on your back foot-- consequently your full swing accuracy is so
> erratic that you cannot consistently score. In every club including
> mine, that means that a dozen or fewer golfers swing correctly-- they
> are the Club Champion and those who score with him. It doesn't matter
> much about the relative difficulty of a golf course to that class of
> golfer; they can score anyplace because they hit it consistently
> straight.
>
> Every teaching pro will admit that it is next to impossible for a late
> beginning golfer to learn to properly shift his weight during the golf
> swing. I wanted to be one of the few who persisted and learned that.
> I sacrificed 90% of playing opportunities in order to spend hours on
> the range drilling.
>
> Now I am in that exclusive club. In the last week or so I got it. I
> won the long drive hole Saturday and my swing now automatically
> includes the weight shift during the transition. I don't have to think
> about it, it just happens. I can do it slowly or rapidly. It is
> mine. Accordingly I hit the ball staighter and effortless longer than
> I ever have--by far.
Funny. You told us you'd mastered the transition months ago...
>
> Watch my scores from this day forward.
You never answered his question...
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 13:26:13
From: multi
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
On 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>It really could be the
>"Golden Grail" of golf learning.
Either that, or the "Holy Goose."
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 12:04:26
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
Carbon wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
>
> > In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
>
> Let us know when you break 90.
I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
even become a pretty good putter.
Larry
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 16:31:22
From: RB
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> Carbon wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
>>
>>> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
>> Let us know when you break 90.
>
> I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> even become a pretty good putter.
>
> Larry
>
What is your definition of *routinely*?
On the surface, if that were indeed the case, I would figure that every
other round you play is at least a 79 or better, and probably no ESC
strokes considering how consistent you are. Surely you are shooting
some mid 70's rounds every 3rd or 4th time, no?
That said, your handicap index should be somewhere in the 5-7 category,
maybe up to an 8 or so if the course you play is very short and easy.
Local knowledge contributes to "homer" indexes.
Please don't bother with the usual "who cares about nits?" or "just
another nutcase regular!" comments. I'd just like to know what exactly
you mean by the statement, "I break 80 routinely."
--
Ron
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 19:42:49
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
In article <1158865466.059924.111550@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> Carbon wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:42:38 -0700, larryrsf wrote:
> >
> > > In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145--
> >
> > Let us know when you break 90.
>
> I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> even become a pretty good putter.
>
> Larry
You've broken 80 only 4 times in your last 23 full rounds. I'd hardly
call that routinely.
But if you want to then I guess you'll have to admit to "routinely"
being unable to break 90, as you have just as many over 90 rounds as you
have under 80 ones...
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 15:09:34
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> I will let you know when I break 70. I break 80 routinely. I have
> even become a pretty good putter.
I just wanna break 80 on a 9 hole par 3 course. :-(
|
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 11:46:36
From: Lopez Gomez
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in
news:1158795758.345899.225730@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>drivel
Here's more advice from the same book:
"For no matter how good we may be, if we should fancy that we have mastered
golf to the extent that we can go out day after day and play as we please,
then we are greater fools than ought to be left at large." (pg. 180)
Lopez Gomez
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 22:33:44
From: Laura Bush murdered her boy friend
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> In his book, "Bobby Jones on Golf," page 145-- he discusses what he
> thinks is the most important fundamental concept for development of a
> good golf swing.
>
> He says that we must keep the clubhead inside a line drawn just outside
> the ball and extending to the target and back behind the golfer.
>
> There are several vitally important benefits in learning to swing like
> that.
>
> First, Your backswing must be "one piece" with the shoulders turning
> the arms--and the arms not independently moving back.
>
> Secondly, you MUST move all your weight to your front foot before
> impact. If you lag back even a little, you will be forced to swing the
> hands outward from the body-- and then dragging the clubhead back
> across the ball from out-to-in, imparting slice spin.
>
> So simply staying inside the line forces us (1) to start our downswing
> by moving our hips forward--which shifts our weight to our front leg.
> (2) It forces us to keep our dominant arm elbow in--returning
> immediately to our side, and (3)the hands must be dropped straight down
> while the shoulders are still turned--
>
> So draw a line in the grass and hit balls inside it.
>
> Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
>
> Larry
Hell - everyone knows that. The trick is doing it - swinging from the
inside. Jones might as well have said the key to great golf is
sinking 30 foot putts.
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 19:52:02
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
Rob Davis wrote:
> larryrsf wrote:
> > So simply staying inside the line forces us (1) to start our downswing
> > by moving our hips forward--which shifts our weight to our front leg.
> > (2) It forces us to keep our dominant arm elbow in--returning
> > immediately to our side, and (3)the hands must be dropped straight down
> > while the shoulders are still turned--
>
> I think you've got your "cause" and "effect" backwards here. "Staying
> inside the line" doesn't "force" you to do anything. The 3 movements you
> describe will help to keep you from crossing the line (and that's what
> Jones actually says).
>
> > Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> > thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> > "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
> >
> > Larry
>
> That's nice that you're so exicted about this amazing discovery ... but
> if you think this is "big news" to the majority of folks here, I think
> you're sadly misinformed. But stick with it ... I'm sure you'll be able
> to stop coming OTT real soon 8^).
>
> Rob
I think all great golfers agree that we can hold only one swing
thought. So what we should be looking for on the range is the single
simple swing thought that makes us perform a good golf swing every
time. Keeping the clubhead inside the line while accelerating it all
the way to your shoulder could be that thought for many of us. Hence
the "Golden Grail" sobriquet. You might be a "contenda" doing this!
Larry (KING of RSG)
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 11:51:49
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
On 20 Sep 2006 19:52:02 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com >
wrote:
>I think all great golfers agree that we can hold only one swing
>thought. So what we should be looking for on the range is the single
>simple swing thought that makes us perform a good golf swing every
>time. Keeping the clubhead inside the line while accelerating it all
>the way to your shoulder could be that thought for many of us. Hence
>the "Golden Grail" sobriquet. You might be a "contenda" doing this!
We are in different stages of our development. Our swings are
different and our needs are different.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 12:12:09
From: JJK
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"larryrsf" wrote:
> >I think all great golfers agree that we can hold only one swing
> >thought. So what we should be looking for on the range is the single
> >simple swing thought that makes us perform a good golf swing every
> >time. Keeping the clubhead inside the line while accelerating it all
> >the way to your shoulder could be that thought for many of us. Hence
> >the "Golden Grail" sobriquet. You might be a "contenda" doing this!
"Howard Brazee" wrote:
> We are in different stages of our development. Our swings are
> different and our needs are different.
Howard, how dare you challenge Larry's uncorrelated commentary?
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 19:41:14
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
Or as my man, Hoyt, says, "Swing in a circle. There are no straight
lines in a golf swing."
"Swing in a circle."
It really isn't much more complicated than that.
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Date: 21 Sep 2006 08:21:54
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message news:1158806474.033890.217310@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> larryrsf wrote:
> > Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> > thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> > "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
>
> Or as my man, Hoyt, says, "Swing in a circle. There are no straight
> lines in a golf swing."
>
>
> "Swing in a circle."
> It really isn't much more complicated than that.
If only it was that simple.
Viewed from overhead the body pivot executes an infinite number of
partial circles, as the centers of these circles move from address into
the backswing and then the downswing and finish.
Viewed from down the line, we have all the circles or planes that the
individual body parts, hips, shoulders, arms, etc., move on and/or shift
between.
Let's not forget all the lever mechanisms of all the body parts, from the
feet to the hands, one accelerating over another to provide that effortless
power (instead of powerless effort) to control and accelerate the clubhead
not just to, but through, impact with the ball.
Circles and planes are often discussed here, but I don't remember anyone
ever discussing how to practice the overlapping acceleration of individual
body parts. Any takers?
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| | | |
Date: 21 Sep 2006 11:09:50
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"Alan Illeman" <illemann@surfbest.net > wrote in message
news:12h50mn5v4vj517@news.supernews.com...
> Let's not forget all the lever mechanisms of all the body parts, from the
> feet to the hands, one accelerating over another to provide that
> effortless
> power (instead of powerless effort) to control and accelerate the clubhead
> not just to, but through, impact with the ball.
>
> Circles and planes are often discussed here, but I don't remember anyone
> ever discussing how to practice the overlapping acceleration of individual
> body parts. Any takers?
The overlapping acceleration of individual body parts is a sequencing issue.
That would take a book to type. Hogan discussed them quite well in 5
Lessons.
Planes. Since the center of the swing does shift, it's more than a simple
plane and more than a simple lever, a compound lever actually with a moving
hinge ( left shoulder ) and a simple lever ( left wrist). At least this is
the lever that hits the ball with the stick.
The plane also elevates, so it is actually multiple planes that the shaft
will swing through.
The best way to practice plane management---follow Homer Kelley's
Imperative.
Although there are multiple planes and multiple angled shafts.....
*The base of the plane is a straight line, infinite in each direction, with
no bends or curves.*
To state in simple terms--the low end of the shaft always points to the base
of the plane.
In terms of angle of this plane--the high end should go through the 'turned
shoulder".
Thats plane management.
Impact alignments are another book.
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| | | |
Date: 21 Sep 2006 15:45:33
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
Alan Illeman wrote:
> "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message news:1158806474.033890.217310@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>>larryrsf wrote:
>>
>>>Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
>>>thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
>>>"Golden Grail" of golf learning.
>>
>>Or as my man, Hoyt, says, "Swing in a circle. There are no straight
>>lines in a golf swing."
>>
>>
>>"Swing in a circle."
>>It really isn't much more complicated than that.
>
>
> If only it was that simple.
>
> Circles and planes are often discussed here, but I don't remember anyone
> ever discussing how to practice the overlapping acceleration of individual
> body parts. Any takers?
>
Yep, just "swing in a circle" (except the circle happens to be tilted
and not horizontal, which makes it a little more "interesting") 8^).
But I agree Alan ... once you have a few basics of the "swing" down,
keeping all those body parts synchronized is the real trick. Wish I had
some stunning insights to share, but it's still a work in progress for
me. Just working at the range yesterday on feet, lower body, and weight
shift ... trying to cure the old reverse pivot habit 8^(.
One thing that I believe helps, is to try and develop an "awareness" of
your body parts and stay "conscious" during your swing. Books like
"Inner Game of Golf", and "Extraordinary Golf', and even Jim Flick "On
Golf" (with his "feel the club head" mantra) talk about this. Maybe too
woo-woo for some (hey I do live in CA), but I think it helps to have a
"feel" for the timing of all the different parts.
Rob
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 Sep 2006 20:31:49
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: Re: If only it was that simple, was: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
"Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net > wrote in message news:xsyQg.1281$xh.36@trnddc02...
> Alan Illeman wrote:
> > "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message news:1158806474.033890.217310@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>larryrsf wrote:
> >>
> >>>Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> >>>thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> >>>"Golden Grail" of golf learning.
> >>
> >>Or as my man, Hoyt, says, "Swing in a circle. There are no straight
> >>lines in a golf swing."
> >>
> >>
> >>"Swing in a circle."
> >>It really isn't much more complicated than that.
> >
> >
> > If only it was that simple.
> >
> > Circles and planes are often discussed here, but I don't remember anyone
> > ever discussing how to practice the overlapping acceleration of individual
> > body parts. Any takers?
> >
>
> Yep, just "swing in a circle" (except the circle happens to be tilted
> and not horizontal, which makes it a little more "interesting") 8^).
>
> But I agree Alan ... once you have a few basics of the "swing" down,
> keeping all those body parts synchronized is the real trick. Wish I had
> some stunning insights to share, but it's still a work in progress for
> me. Just working at the range yesterday on feet, lower body, and weight
> shift ... trying to cure the old reverse pivot habit 8^(.
>
> One thing that I believe helps, is to try and develop an "awareness" of
> your body parts and stay "conscious" during your swing. Books like
> "Inner Game of Golf", and "Extraordinary Golf', and even Jim Flick "On
> Golf" (with his "feel the club head" mantra) talk about this. Maybe too
> woo-woo for some (hey I do live in CA), but I think it helps to have a
> "feel" for the timing of all the different parts.
I enjoyed Gallwey's Inner Game but haven't read it for quite some time.
What I'm getting at is, maybe we can devise some simple exercises, not
necessarily golf related, to feel just one part of the body accelerating on
top of another. For example in soccer, or football in your case, the ball
isn't just kicked with the foot alone. Do soccer/football coaches teach
the uninitiated to kick with the body/hips/thighs/legs/feet? Maybe we
could learn a think or two from them. Similarly in boxing, you don't get
a knockout blow with just the fist. I'm sure there's many other examples
in other sports. My question is 'How do THEY learn to maximize their
overlapping accelerations, and thus their potential?'.
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Date: 20 Sep 2006 20:51:58
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
We just got finished with The Hammer's latest pile of crap and now you
walk-in and drop a steaming pile.
The bathroom is down the hall, use it next time.
|
| |
Date: 21 Sep 2006 00:15:42
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Is this the "Golden Grail?"
|
larryrsf wrote:
> So simply staying inside the line forces us (1) to start our downswing
> by moving our hips forward--which shifts our weight to our front leg.
> (2) It forces us to keep our dominant arm elbow in--returning
> immediately to our side, and (3)the hands must be dropped straight down
> while the shoulders are still turned--
I think you've got your "cause" and "effect" backwards here. "Staying
inside the line" doesn't "force" you to do anything. The 3 movements you
describe will help to keep you from crossing the line (and that's what
Jones actually says).
> Bobby Jones' suggestion that this may be the single most important
> thing for a student to work on-- is big news! It really could be the
> "Golden Grail" of golf learning.
>
> Larry
That's nice that you're so exicted about this amazing discovery ... but
if you think this is "big news" to the majority of folks here, I think
you're sadly misinformed. But stick with it ... I'm sure you'll be able
to stop coming OTT real soon 8^).
Rob
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|
