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Main
Date: 11 Dec 2006 07:58:30
From: John B.
Subject: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
Un-fucking-believable.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121100198.html
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 12:22:48
From: SantasLittleHelper
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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The West is angry at Ahmadinjad because he shows them up. Bushy blows
hard; Ahmadinjad speaks gently, factually, ironically. Ahmadinejad
reveals the gap between their words and actions, which humiliates the
West. The West talks about free speech, but practices censorship.
Ahmadinejad forces Western sources to confront their bad faith.
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 16:33:27
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 15 Dec 2006 12:22:48 -0800, "SantasLittleHelper"
<ilovesanta@lycos.com > wrote:
>The West is angry at Ahmadinjad because he shows them up. Bushy blows
>hard; Ahmadinjad speaks gently, factually, ironically. Ahmadinejad
>reveals the gap between their words and actions, which humiliates the
>West. The West talks about free speech, but practices censorship.
>Ahmadinejad forces Western sources to confront their bad faith.
An interesting perspective. On the other hand, the West has, and
still does, confront Iran with its abject failures. The Persians were
once a great and powerful people and now they belong to the scrap heap
of history. Perhaps there will come a time when the Persians will
rise to become a great society again. However, that wont happen until
they give up the retrograde force of Islamic fundamentalism. Of
course, if they do that they will be just like the West. Iran is just
a shadow of what it was before the Ayatollah Khomeini took over.
In any case, regardless of what Iran confronts the West with, the West
could very well confront Ahmadinejad, and a lot of his countrymen,
with their mortality.
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Date: 15 Dec 2006 07:05:38
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jordan wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
> > occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
> > Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
> > be known as The Second Holocaust.
>
> You're making the assumption that Ahmadinejad and his supporters
> consider killing Jews to be a _bad_ thing. The truth is that the
> "place in history" occupied by Adolf Hitler in the Islamic world is a
> _respected_ one -- Hitler is a HERO in the Muslim world, precisely
> _because_ of the Holocaust.
>
> So I think that this is exactly the place Ahmadinejad wants for
> himself.
>
> - Jordan
Do you have any evidence to support your contention that Hitler is a
hero in the Muslim world?
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 10:20:48
From: Jordan
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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John B. wrote:
> Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
> occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
> Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
> be known as The Second Holocaust.
You're making the assumption that Ahmadinejad and his supporters
consider killing Jews to be a _bad_ thing. The truth is that the
"place in history" occupied by Adolf Hitler in the Islamic world is a
_respected_ one -- Hitler is a HERO in the Muslim world, precisely
_because_ of the Holocaust.
So I think that this is exactly the place Ahmadinejad wants for
himself.
- Jordan
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 12:34:51
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 14 Dec 2006 10:20:48 -0800, "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>You're making the assumption that Ahmadinejad and his supporters
>consider killing Jews to be a _bad_ thing. The truth is that the
>"place in history" occupied by Adolf Hitler in the Islamic world is a
>_respected_ one -- Hitler is a HERO in the Muslim world, precisely
>_because_ of the Holocaust.
As the Holocaust may be responsible for the State of Israel, I suspect
that the number of people who have him as a hero is smaller than you
think.
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 19:35:51
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 14 Dec 2006 10:20:48 -0800, "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You're making the assumption that Ahmadinejad and his supporters
>> consider killing Jews to be a _bad_ thing. The truth is that the
>> "place in history" occupied by Adolf Hitler in the Islamic world is a
>> _respected_ one -- Hitler is a HERO in the Muslim world, precisely
>> _because_ of the Holocaust.
>
> As the Holocaust may be responsible for the State of Israel, I suspect
> that the number of people who have him as a hero is smaller than you
> think.
You might be shocked to know how many sickos are in USA - check out
www.StormFront.org
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 11:11:25
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 14 Dec 2006 10:20:48 -0800, "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>The truth is that the
>"place in history" occupied by Adolf Hitler in the Islamic world is a
>_respected_ one -- Hitler is a HERO in the Muslim world, precisely
>_because_ of the Holocaust.
I don't suppose you have any proof that Hitler is a bigger hero to
Muslims than he is to Americans? Have any Muslims wearing swastikas
ched in parades, like they do in America? Are there more Muslims
than Americans with swastika tattoos?
And which is it --- do they deny the Holocaust ever happened, or do
they lionize Hitler for it?
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 10:17:52
From: Jordan
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Head Shot wrote:
> The articles I have read indicate that USA now uses an average of 500 kt and
> place them in circles of 7 weapons per circle rather than using muti-megaton
> warheads becasue with the new design the death rate is 97%. Also, that
> software indicated that a 1 megaton blast would cover 104 sq. mi. with a
> 98% death rate within 90 days.
104 square miles is roughly 10 x 10 miles, which is to say a bit more
than a 5-mile radius. I'm not sure what you mean by this 98% death
rate "within 90 days" -- are you talking about how many people would be
killed or mortally wounded by the initial blast and pulse of energy, or
are you adding fallout deaths into this? The problem with adding
fallout deaths into this is that you are then implicitly assuming no
fallout shelters and no rational response after the attack to the
threat posed by fallout (in other words by either remaining within an
intact fallout shelter for a while, or physically leaving the
seriously-contaminated area).
I also suspect that this assumes no bomb shelters at all, so that no
one is protected save accidentally from the initial explosion.
But anyway, a 1-megaton blast is a fairly hefty one. It assumes at
least an H-bomb (fission-fusion-fission) rather than a simple fission
device. The Iranians are not likely to at first have such weapons;
they are likely to build A-bombs first, because an H-bomb is more
technically complex to construct.
> A large ground burst weapon in each of Haifa and Tel Aviv would pretty much
> be the end of Israel as a country.
First of all, _air bursts_ are more effective than ground bursts,
because air bursts do not get as badly muffled by terrain. Ground
bursts are good for two things: (1) bunker busting and (2) fallout
production. And you cannot simply put fallout dispersal ellipsi over a
map and assume that anyone who gets fallout dropped on them is dead.
That's not how fallout works.
What percentage of the population of Israel lives in Haifa and Tel
Aviv? Few people outside those two target cities (or at least urban
areas) is going to get _killed_ by those two weapons, whether delivered
as ground or air bursts (though more will get killed by air bursts).
And the described attack has failed to knock out a single _Israeli_
nuclear weapon, and it has also failed to destroy much of the Israeli
Defense Forces. So Israel can still fight.
-Jordan
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 13:54:06
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jordan wrote:
> 104 square miles is roughly 10 x 10 miles, which is to say a bit more
> than a 5-mile radius.
How big are Tel Aviv and Haifa? I was there some years ago but really
don't remember. They seemed like small cities.
> I'm not sure what you mean by this 98% death
> rate "within 90 days"
I was just quoting the software I installed from Encyclopedia Brittanica. I
sent you the link.
> But anyway, a 1-megaton blast is a fairly hefty one. It assumes at
> least an H-bomb (fission-fusion-fission) rather than a simple fission
> device. The Iranians are not likely to at first have such weapons;
> they are likely to build A-bombs first, because an H-bomb is more
> technically complex to construct.
So something more along the line of the original Nagasaki and Hiroshima
blast? How big were those cities? IIRC; about 150K folks died with each
of those blasts. What percentage of the population was that?
> What percentage of the population of Israel lives in Haifa and Tel
> Aviv?
There are 6.8 million in all of Israel. Metro Tel Aviv is 2.8 million and
Haifa is 1 million. You lose over 1/2 of the country and all of the
infrastructure (Likud, nuclear plant, universities) if you nuke those two
cities.
http://www.citypopulation.de/Israel.html#Land
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 19:21:04
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Head Shot wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> > the Moderator wrote:
> >> Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other
> >> people. A Muslim extremist would never do that.
> >
> > An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
>
>
> When Iran makes her nukes; is she going to put a big red button in each
> house and require the whole society to press it? Or will it be in the hands
> of that lunatic Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
I would speculate that if they deliver a nuke through the military,
then there will be a number of fingers. If through a terrorist, then
the list is smaller. Nonetheless, in both scenarios, the perps/leaders
know that an entire nation will be leveled, including their loved ones.
It's one thing to blow up a bus and get some reward for their family
while playing with a thousand celestial virgins. It's another to have
an entire nation decimated.
-Greg
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 13:51:28
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:38:13 -0600, "the Moderator"
> <sparky@no_spam_engineer.com> wrote:
>
> >Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
> >A Muslim extremist would never do that.
>
> One has to wonder if Iran could be an example of a suicide cult on a
> national level. One can trace the first suicide bomber to Iran in
> 1980 when a 13 year old boy named Hossein Fahmideh threw himself under
> an Iraqi tank and blew up himself and the tank's occupants. He was the
> first suicide bomber and is now a hero in Iran.
>
> Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems psychotic enough to have an
> apocalyptic vision, but I doubt that the Mullah's that really run the
> country are that crazy.
Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
be known as The Second Holocaust.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 21:33:27
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 13 Dec 2006 13:51:28 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
>occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
>Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
>be known as The Second Holocaust.
First, I hope that Iran never gets in a position to nuke anyone.
Second, I doubt that Ahmadinejad would view himself as anything other
than a hero if he wiped Israel off the face of the map. What the rest
of the world thinks is of little concern to him.
In any case, if Iran did launch a nuclear strike against Israel, they
would surely suffer a counter strike. There is no way that Iran could
eliminate Israel's ability to respond in kind. No one knows for sure
exactly how many nukes Israel has, but it has to be more than 100 and
there is little doubt that they have the capability to launch them on
their Jericho-2 missiles which could reach Iran and have very good
guidance systems. These are mobile missiles which can be placed
anywhere within Israel. It's also unlikely that an Iranian nuclear
strike would eliminate all of Israel's air force, which also has the
capabilities to carry nuclear weapons to Iran.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 21:46:12
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jack Hollis wrote:
> In any case, if Iran did launch a nuclear strike against Israel, they
> would surely suffer a counter strike. There is no way that Iran could
> eliminate Israel's ability to respond in kind. No one knows for sure
> exactly how many nukes Israel has, but it has to be more than 100 and
> there is little doubt that they have the capability to launch them on
> their Jericho-2 missiles which could reach Iran and have very good
> guidance systems. These are mobile missiles which can be placed
> anywhere within Israel. It's also unlikely that an Iranian nuclear
> strike would eliminate all of Israel's air force, which also has the
> capabilities to carry nuclear weapons to Iran.
As per the below reference; it was > 400 deliverable thermonuclear and
nuclear devices as of 1997.
Brower, Kenneth S., "A Propensity for Conflict: Potential Scenarios and
Outcomes of War in the Middle East," Jane's Intelligence Review, Special
Report no. 14, (February 1997), 14-15.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:12:43
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:46:12 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>As per the below reference; it was > 400 deliverable thermonuclear and
>nuclear devices as of 1997.
I said 100 because even the most conservative estimated are above that
number. I don't think that 400 is out of the question.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:31:50
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:46:12 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
>> As per the below reference; it was > 400 deliverable thermonuclear
>> and nuclear devices as of 1997.
>
> I said 100 because even the most conservative estimated are above that
> number. I don't think that 400 is out of the question.
Me either; but I certainly think 0 is out of the question - and they have
no problem with that position.
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 12:00:35
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:31:50 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Me either; but I certainly think 0 is out of the question - and they have
>no problem with that position.
Israel has had nuclear weapons for quite a while. It was reported
that Israel had moved some of their nuclear weapons to operational
status in 1973 when it looked like they might be overrun by the
Egyptians and Syrians. Basically, Israel has as many warheads as they
think they might need.
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 12:56:53
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:31:50 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
>> Me either; but I certainly think 0 is out of the question - and
>> they have no problem with that position.
>
>
> Israel has had nuclear weapons for quite a while. It was reported
> that Israel had moved some of their nuclear weapons to operational
> status in 1973 when it looked like they might be overrun by the
> Egyptians and Syrians. Basically, Israel has as many warheads as they
> think they might need.
Based on the capacity of their reactors; they estimate Israel makes a
certain amount more each year. Somewhere over 400 at this point. Yeah - I
heard they put nukes in their F4 Phantoms and started heading to Damascus
and Cairo. I forget where I read that - but as the story goes these two
cities were an hour away from death.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 20:35:32
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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John B. wrote:
> Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
> occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
> Nazi Germany.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad views himself as a person divinely ordained to fulfill
Mohammed's wish that all Jews and Christians die. He is just following
Koran.
QUOTES FROM THE KORAN
---------------------
O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian)
monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the
way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in
the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful
doom. [Koran 9:34]
Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the disbelievers
wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and
prepare for them each ambush. [Koran 9:5]
Lo! those who disbelieve, among the people of the Scripture and
idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created
beings. [Koran 98:6]
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of
the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel
themselves subdued. [Koran 9:29]
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Date: 14 Dec 2006 01:00:32
From: Sparky
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 13-Dec-2006, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
> Jack Hollis wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:38:13 -0600, "the Moderator"
> > <sparky@no_spam_engineer.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other
> > >people.
> > >A Muslim extremist would never do that.
> >
> > One has to wonder if Iran could be an example of a suicide cult on a
> > national level. One can trace the first suicide bomber to Iran in
> > 1980 when a 13 year old boy named Hossein Fahmideh threw himself under
> > an Iraqi tank and blew up himself and the tank's occupants. He was the
> > first suicide bomber and is now a hero in Iran.
> >
> > Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems psychotic enough to have an
> > apocalyptic vision, but I doubt that the Mullah's that really run the
> > country are that crazy.
>
> Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
> occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
> Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
> be known as The Second Holocaust.
Here's what John von Heyking from the University of Lethbridge says of him:
"While Ahmadinejad has not drawn an explicit connection between his desire
to see Israel wiped off the map and an activist belief in the Twelfth Imam’s
return, the dots are there to be connected once one understands the
tyrannical "logic" behind someone who, perhaps viewing himself as a
self-proclaimed deputy for the Twelfth Imam, might wish to effect Mahdi’s
return. The deputy would promote Iran’s nuclear capabilities for they are
key to effecting chaos in the world. The deputy would also purge diplomats,
dozens of deputy ministers and heads of government banks and businesses, and
challenge the Iranian ruling clerical establishment. All these moves push
the regime toward a "coup d’état"
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1645457,00.html > (according to
one Iranian source) or at least a constitutional crisis. But a
constitutional crisis would be a mere stepping stone for a president for
whom the Twelfth Imam does not require an Islamic republic to return.
Western observers need to be able to understand the ideological and
religious overtones of the current situation in Iran. Ahmadinejad’s peculiar
references to the Twelfth Imam are no mere eccentricity to be taken lightly.
Nor do they seem to be the rhetorical ploy of a politician manipulating the
excitable masses (as some have interpreted Saddam Hussein’s embrace of
Islamism in the later part of his rule). Minimally, Ahmadinejad’s speeches
and actions portend a constitutional crisis for the Iranian regime.
Maximally, there are times when one should take bombastic statements not as
double-talk, but for what they are".
John von Heyking is an associate professor of political science at the
University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada.
me
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 16:22:46
From: the Moderator
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166046688.728312.178860@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Ahmadinejad is a clearly a fanatic, but I don't think he wants to
> occupy a place in history next to Adolf Hitler, or his country next to
> Nazi Germany. That's what would happen if Iran nuked Israel. It would
> be known as The Second Holocaust.
>
You are trying to use your rationale to predict the behavior of a fanatic.
It does not work that way.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 10:45:28
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jordan wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> > the Moderator wrote:
> > > Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
> > > A Muslim extremist would never do that.
> >
> > An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
>
> The issue is not about to be submitted to Iran by plebiscite.
>
> > Also Shiites are not known for suicide bombing.
>
> They might convince themselves that Allah would confound their enemies
> and enable the Islamic Republic to survive no matter what Israel tried
> to do.
>
> - Jordan
That's a lot of people within a government who would have to share that
view.
Hitler tried to annihilate the Jews, gypsies, Slavs, etc. but he did it
without actively endangering his country. Had he had nuclear missiles
pointed at him, his actions may have been different. Same is true, I
hope, for Tehran.
-Greg
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:17:47
From: Jordan
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Head Shot wrote:
>
> That is the impression I got from the article as well - that Israel does
> not have the ability to do anything. The article is also correct in the
> assertion that a ground burst in Haifa and Tel Aviv would mean the end of
> Israel. At that point, Jews worldwide would have to implement a grass
> roots retaliation against Islam; which is another event I do not see
> happening.
I've often heard this assertation -- that two nuclear weapons could
destroy Israel. The problem is that I've looked at a map of Israel,
and while it's a small country it's not _that_ small. How small are
Tel Aviv and Haifa? Medium-sized nuclear weapons (tens to the low
hundreds of kilotons) do not in fact usually destroy cities, but rather
damage them; you need to get into the megatons range to actually
obliterate urban populations in any but small cities. (During the Cold
War, the Soviets had multiple megaton-range weapons targetted on major
American cities because they knew that single megaton-range hits are
insufficient to destroy _large_ cities).
I rather suspect that what's happening here is that people are putting
fallout footprints over Israel under the mistaken impression that
anyone and everyone under such a footprint is killed or incapacitated.
This is not true: the fate of most people exposed to fallout is
sickness rather than death, and given even basic precautions, radiation
sickness can be largely avoided. (There is a long-term threat of
increased cancers in a priy fallout zone, but that's not an issue
that would be relevant _during_ a war).
Admittedly, Israel is smaller and thus easier to destroy, given the
delivery of nuclear weapons, than would be (say) England or France.
- Jordan
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 21:04:20
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jordan wrote:
> I've often heard this assertation -- that two nuclear weapons could
> destroy Israel. The problem is that I've looked at a map of Israel,
> and while it's a small country it's not _that_ small. How small are
> Tel Aviv and Haifa? Medium-sized nuclear weapons (tens to the low
> hundreds of kilotons) do not in fact usually destroy cities, but
> rather damage them; you need to get into the megatons range to
> actually obliterate urban populations in any but small cities.
Agreed. And what kinds of nukes do they have nowadays? I don't know much
about Pakistan and India; but in USA has some serious weapons. The W-91
warhead is 10 megatons. Hiroshima was 12 kilotons and Nagasaki was 21
kilotons. So, imagine dropping 1,000 weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
USA now prefers to use weapons in the 500kt range; but that is because they
drop them in clusters of 7 and make a big circle with them. Encyclopedia
Britannica linked me to the following site to give a nuclear simulation
software: www.nukefix.org
> (During the Cold War, the Soviets had multiple megaton-range weapons
> targetted on major American cities because they knew that single
> megaton-range hits are insufficient to destroy _large_ cities).
The articles I have read indicate that USA now uses an average of 500 kt and
place them in circles of 7 weapons per circle rather than using muti-megaton
warheads becasue with the new design the death rate is 97%. Also, that
software indicated that a 1 megaton blast would cover 104 sq. mi. with a
98% death rate within 90 days.
> Admittedly, Israel is smaller and thus easier to destroy, given the
> delivery of nuclear weapons, than would be (say) England or France.
A large ground burst weapon in each of Haifa and Tel Aviv would pretty much
be the end of Israel as a country.
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:10:42
From: Jordan
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Dene wrote:
> the Moderator wrote:
> > Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
> > A Muslim extremist would never do that.
>
> An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
The issue is not about to be submitted to Iran by plebiscite.
> Also Shiites are not known for suicide bombing.
They might convince themselves that Allah would confound their enemies
and enable the Islamic Republic to survive no matter what Israel tried
to do.
- Jordan
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Date: 13 Dec 2006 08:07:13
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
the Moderator wrote:
> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1166024440.257288.119670@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > the Moderator wrote:
> > > "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1165940903.863911.151140@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > > >
> > > > John B. wrote:
> > > > > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
> > > >
> > > > Iraqi, not Iranian.
> > > >
> > > He retired from the State Department. Don't question his knowledge of
> > > Foreign affairs.
> >
> > I did not "retire" from the State Dept. I used to work there. I
> > admitted my mistake and apologized for it. Have you ever done that? Or
> > maybe you've never been wrong. Like Larry.
>
> I have never put myself out as an expert. I have never made the number of
> inaccurate statements that you have.
How many have I made? Can you name two? By the way, I have never put
myself out as an expert, either. So, you just made an innacurate
statement. Look up irony in the dictionary.
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 14:26:31
From: the Moderator
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166026033.811394.155670@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> How many have I made? Can you name two? By the way, I have never put
> myself out as an expert, either. So, you just made an innacurate
> statement. Look up irony in the dictionary.
>
Well there is this one and the one about Padilla not being charged. That is
two in one day and if you keep talking the number just goes up.
|
| |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 08:06:32
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
the Moderator wrote:
> "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1165952682.970561.75240@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > I agree....nothing will happen, nor should it. Tehran knows that it
> > will be turned into a parking lot if a nuclear device is used on the
> > USA, it's allies, in particular Israel. Iran will develop a nuclear
> > weapon and become further isolated in the process. A lose-lose
> > situation.
> >
> > -Greg
>
> Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
> A Muslim extremist would never do that.
An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
Also Shiites are not known for suicide bombing.
-Greg
-Greg
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 20:31:43
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Dene wrote:
> the Moderator wrote:
>> Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other
>> people. A Muslim extremist would never do that.
>
> An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
When Iran makes her nukes; is she going to put a big red button in each
house and require the whole society to press it? Or will it be in the hands
of that lunatic Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
|
| | |
Date: 14 Dec 2006 00:49:39
From: Sparky
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On 13-Dec-2006, "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote:
> the Moderator wrote:
> > "Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1165952682.970561.75240@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree....nothing will happen, nor should it. Tehran knows that it
> > > will be turned into a parking lot if a nuclear device is used on the
> > > USA, it's allies, in particular Israel. Iran will develop a nuclear
> > > weapon and become further isolated in the process. A lose-lose
> > > situation.
> > >
> > > -Greg
> >
> > Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other
> > people.
> > A Muslim extremist would never do that.
>
> An extremist....yes. An entire society....doubtful.
I don't think they're gonna exactly put it to a vote.
Here's one look at who's running that place:
http://analysis.threatswatch.org/2005/11/understanding-ahmadinejad/
> Also Shiites are not known for suicide bombing.
I believe if you research it a little you'll find that the Iranians pretty
much invented suicide bombing....
me
|
| |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 07:40:40
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
the Moderator wrote:
> "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1165940903.863911.151140@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > John B. wrote:
> > > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
> >
> > Iraqi, not Iranian.
> >
> He retired from the State Department. Don't question his knowledge of
> Foreign affairs.
I did not "retire" from the State Dept. I used to work there. I
admitted my mistake and apologized for it. Have you ever done that? Or
maybe you've never been wrong. Like Larry.
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:45:37
From: the Moderator
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1166024440.257288.119670@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> the Moderator wrote:
> > "Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1165940903.863911.151140@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > John B. wrote:
> > > > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
> > >
> > > Iraqi, not Iranian.
> > >
> > He retired from the State Department. Don't question his knowledge of
> > Foreign affairs.
>
> I did not "retire" from the State Dept. I used to work there. I
> admitted my mistake and apologized for it. Have you ever done that? Or
> maybe you've never been wrong. Like Larry.
I have never put myself out as an expert. I have never made the number of
inaccurate statements that you have.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 14:23:54
From:
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:22:10 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
> >Jack Hollis wrote:
> >> http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
> >
> >
> >Pretty scary thought either way. If an attack on Iran occurs to stop their
> >nuclear forward movement; all hell breaks loose. If nothing is done;
> >sooner or later all hell breaks loose anyway. I still believe that
> >nothing will occur any time soon. I feel if Isreal was able to do
> >something; she already would have.
>
> One can never underestimate the resourcefulness of the Israelis, but
> attacking Iran's nuclear weapons sites is probably biting off more
> than they can chew. They only have a chance of limited success and
> the consequences could be worse than anything they achieve. I also
> doubt that the US would support such an effort for the same reasons.
>
> I suppose that Israel's hope is that the US will eventually do the
> job. I don't see the US allowing Iran to continue its nuke program
> too much longer without some action.
Jack, you have it exactly backwards. The USA wont do it (but they will
help Israel behind the scenes) but Israel has nothing to lose. If
Iran, which has publicly announced that Israel does not HAVE THE RIGHT
TO EXIST, develops nukes, Israel will have been backed into a corner
and will respond. I believe something will occur sooner rather than
later because Israel is st enough to know that hitting them prior to
them deploying nukes will be easier to deal with. Israel will not use
nukes until the last gasp.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 20:55:45
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On 12 Dec 2006 14:23:54 -0800, lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
>> I suppose that Israel's hope is that the US will eventually do the
>> job. I don't see the US allowing Iran to continue its nuke program
>> too much longer without some action.
>
>Jack, you have it exactly backwards. The USA wont do it (but they will
>help Israel behind the scenes) but Israel has nothing to lose. If
>Iran, which has publicly announced that Israel does not HAVE THE RIGHT
>TO EXIST, develops nukes, Israel will have been backed into a corner
>and will respond. I believe something will occur sooner rather than
>later because Israel is st enough to know that hitting them prior to
>them deploying nukes will be easier to deal with. Israel will not use
>nukes until the last gasp.
The problem is that Israel doesn't have the capabilities to do the
job. Destroying Iran's nuclear weapons program requires an intense
and sustained air campaign. Only the US could do something like that.
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 21:08:36
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> The problem is that Israel doesn't have the capabilities to do the
> job. Destroying Iran's nuclear weapons program requires an intense
> and sustained air campaign. Only the US could do something like that.
I suspect she could nuke Iran back to the stone age; even though she cannot
do much damage to Iran any other way. Israel bought a few subines a few
years back, BTW.
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 13:39:47
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:08:36 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Jack Hollis wrote:
>> The problem is that Israel doesn't have the capabilities to do the
>> job. Destroying Iran's nuclear weapons program requires an intense
>> and sustained air campaign. Only the US could do something like that.
>
>
>I suspect she could nuke Iran back to the stone age; even though she cannot
>do much damage to Iran any other way. Israel bought a few subines a few
>years back, BTW.
I don't think anyone is considering a pre-emptive nuclear strike by
Israel on Iran. That's a can of worms no one wants to open -- not
even Israel.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 18:19:46
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Jack, you have it exactly backwards. The USA wont do it (but they will
> help Israel behind the scenes) but Israel has nothing to lose. If
> Iran, which has publicly announced that Israel does not HAVE THE RIGHT
> TO EXIST, develops nukes, Israel will have been backed into a corner
> and will respond. I believe something will occur sooner rather than
> later because Israel is st enough to know that hitting them prior
> to them deploying nukes will be easier to deal with. Israel will not
> use nukes until the last gasp.
This world is going from bad to worse. If anyone needs me, I will be
hiding in my basement.
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:50:30
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:19:46 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>This world is going from bad to worse. If anyone needs me, I will be
>hiding in my basement.
A quick look at history shows that *every* century has had times which
we wouldn't trade for.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 11:44:43
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Head Shot wrote:
> Jack Hollis wrote:
> > http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
>
>
> Pretty scary thought either way. If an attack on Iran occurs to stop their
> nuclear forward movement; all hell breaks loose. If nothing is done;
> sooner or later all hell breaks loose anyway. I still believe that
> nothing will occur any time soon. I feel if Isreal was able to do
> something; she already would have.
I agree....nothing will happen, nor should it. Tehran knows that it
will be turned into a parking lot if a nuclear device is used on the
USA, it's allies, in particular Israel. Iran will develop a nuclear
weapon and become further isolated in the process. A lose-lose
situation.
-Greg
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:38:13
From: the Moderator
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
"Dene" <gdstrue@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1165952682.970561.75240@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I agree....nothing will happen, nor should it. Tehran knows that it
> will be turned into a parking lot if a nuclear device is used on the
> USA, it's allies, in particular Israel. Iran will develop a nuclear
> weapon and become further isolated in the process. A lose-lose
> situation.
>
> -Greg
Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
A Muslim extremist would never do that.
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 16:09:02
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:38:13 -0600, "the Moderator"
<sparky@no_spam_engineer.com > wrote:
>Sure it would be like blowing yourself up just to kill a few other people.
>A Muslim extremist would never do that.
One has to wonder if Iran could be an example of a suicide cult on a
national level. One can trace the first suicide bomber to Iran in
1980 when a 13 year old boy named Hossein Fahmideh threw himself under
an Iraqi tank and blew up himself and the tank’s occupants. He was the
first suicide bomber and is now a hero in Iran.
Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems psychotic enough to have an
apocalyptic vision, but I doubt that the Mullah's that really run the
country are that crazy.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 14:53:34
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Dene wrote:
> I agree....nothing will happen, nor should it. Tehran knows that it
> will be turned into a parking lot if a nuclear device is used on the
> USA, it's allies, in particular Israel. Iran will develop a nuclear
> weapon and become further isolated in the process. A lose-lose
> situation.
Part of me thinks the media wants all of us to be alarmist - I guess it
sells newspapers. Remember South Africa - they were a pretty radical
government (insanely racist as well) when they tested their nukes; and
nothing came of it. North Korea - same thing. They tested them, and
nothing came of it. California is still here - North Korea never nuked it
into the ocean. And let's not forget India and Pakistan testing right
around the same time as each other - the media here in USA had us hiding in
our basements on that one. Iran will probably never complete their nukes;
but even if they do they know better than to sell them to Al-Qaida.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 10:57:03
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Head Shot wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
>
> You sure? I only know about them bombing the Osirak Reactor in Bagdad,
> Iraq.
No, I was wrong, as was pointed out by someone else.
>
> > I think those who are calling for airstrikes ought to
> > think about whether dropping some bombs is going to get Iran
> > permanently out of the nuclear game.
>
> My understanding is that Iran split up her facilities all over the country
> and put them extremely deep under ground.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 14:02:33
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
John B. wrote:
> Head Shot wrote:
>> John B. wrote:
>>> The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
>>
>> You sure? I only know about them bombing the Osirak Reactor in
>> Bagdad, Iraq.
>
> No, I was wrong, as was pointed out by someone else.
Yeah - I caught that later. That's the problem with Usenet - you can
either read a post and then respond; or read the whole thread of many posts
and respond once at the end. I prefer the former.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:50:10
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jordan wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
>
> Iraqi, not Iranian.
>
Woops. I blew that one. Sorry.
> > A lot of good that did.
>
> Why yes, as a matter of fact it did. The Israeli reactor raid was the
> main reason why Saddam _didn't_ have any nuclear weapons in either the
> Iran-Iraq War or the Kuwait War.
>
> > I think those who are calling for airstrikes ought to
> > think about whether dropping some bombs is going to get Iran
> > permanently out of the nuclear game. I imagine they are activeply
> > planning right now how they're going to weather any airstrikes and
> > mimimize the damage to whatever nuclear facilities they have.
>
> This is an argument for bombing the reactors every time they rebuild
> them, and bombing them with rather heavy ordnance. Not for not bombing
> them.
>
> Or, it's an argument for invading Iran, toppling the regime, and taking
> the nuclear materials away by main force. Not for inaction.
>
> - Jordan
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 09:00:40
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On 12 Dec 2006 08:50:10 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>> John B. wrote:
>> > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
>>
>> Iraqi, not Iranian.
>>
>Woops. I blew that one. Sorry.
Haven't you learned anything from Larry? You should NEVER admit a
mistake. You should either quickly change the subject, or else dig in
your heels and maintain that you're right, preferably with slurs on
your correspondent's patriotism and courage.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:28:23
From: Jordan
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
John B. wrote:
> The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
Iraqi, not Iranian.
> A lot of good that did.
Why yes, as a matter of fact it did. The Israeli reactor raid was the
main reason why Saddam _didn't_ have any nuclear weapons in either the
Iran-Iraq War or the Kuwait War.
> I think those who are calling for airstrikes ought to
> think about whether dropping some bombs is going to get Iran
> permanently out of the nuclear game. I imagine they are activeply
> planning right now how they're going to weather any airstrikes and
> mimimize the damage to whatever nuclear facilities they have.
This is an argument for bombing the reactors every time they rebuild
them, and bombing them with rather heavy ordnance. Not for not bombing
them.
Or, it's an argument for invading Iran, toppling the regime, and taking
the nuclear materials away by main force. Not for inaction.
- Jordan
|
| | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 09:33:16
From: the Moderator
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
"Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1165940903.863911.151140@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
>
> John B. wrote:
> > The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
>
> Iraqi, not Iranian.
>
He retired from the State Department. Don't question his knowledge of
Foreign affairs.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 08:08:46
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Head Shot wrote:
> > lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > > John B. wrote:
> > >> I've never before started a political thread here, but this story
> > >> just makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a
> > >> "scholarly" conference to determine whether the Holocaust really
> > >> happened. Un-fucking-believable.
> > >
> > >
> > > It is not unbelievable at all. What would you expect out of a place
> > > like Iran. Like I have said before, they are just barely advanced
> > > beyond the stone age. And people wonder why we should really be
> > > worried about them getting nukes. THAT is what is unbelievable.
> >
> >
> > We should be worried; but I don't think there is anything we can do about
> > it. I believe if we thought something could be done; it already would
> > have.
>
> We are frozen by the liberal "make peace not war" and "they are just
> like us" mentality. Israel is going to do the world a favor. They WILL
> NOT allow Iran to develop. It is not a question of if they will attack,
> just a question of when. Probably about 5 waves of precision strikes.
> Then the world will turn on them with indignation.
> Sure would like to know what Nancy Pelosi thinks about Iran getting
> nukes.
The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once. A lot of
good that did. I think those who are calling for airstrikes ought to
think about whether dropping some bombs is going to get Iran
permanently out of the nuclear game. I imagine they are activeply
planning right now how they're going to weather any airstrikes and
mimimize the damage to whatever nuclear facilities they have. By the
way, Nancy Pelosi is going to be Speaker of the House, not President.
She will have little to say about foreign or military policy. Do you
remember Dennis Hastert exerting any influence in those areas?
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:22:18
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
John B. wrote:
> The Israelis already bombed an Iranian nuclear reactor once.
You sure? I only know about them bombing the Osirak Reactor in Bagdad,
Iraq.
> I think those who are calling for airstrikes ought to
> think about whether dropping some bombs is going to get Iran
> permanently out of the nuclear game.
My understanding is that Iran split up her facilities all over the country
and put them extremely deep under ground.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 07:10:50
From:
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Head Shot wrote:
> lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> > John B. wrote:
> >> I've never before started a political thread here, but this story
> >> just makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a
> >> "scholarly" conference to determine whether the Holocaust really
> >> happened. Un-fucking-believable.
> >
> >
> > It is not unbelievable at all. What would you expect out of a place
> > like Iran. Like I have said before, they are just barely advanced
> > beyond the stone age. And people wonder why we should really be
> > worried about them getting nukes. THAT is what is unbelievable.
>
>
> We should be worried; but I don't think there is anything we can do about
> it. I believe if we thought something could be done; it already would
> have.
We are frozen by the liberal "make peace not war" and "they are just
like us" mentality. Israel is going to do the world a favor. They WILL
NOT allow Iran to develop. It is not a question of if they will attack,
just a question of when. Probably about 5 waves of precision strikes.
Then the world will turn on them with indignation.
Sure would like to know what Nancy Pelosi thinks about Iran getting
nukes.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:51:58
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On 12 Dec 2006 07:10:50 -0800, lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
>> We should be worried; but I don't think there is anything we can do about
>> it. I believe if we thought something could be done; it already would
>> have.
>
>We are frozen by the liberal "make peace not war" and "they are just
>like us" mentality. Israel is going to do the world a favor. They WILL
>NOT allow Iran to develop. It is not a question of if they will attack,
>just a question of when. Probably about 5 waves of precision strikes.
>Then the world will turn on them with indignation.
>Sure would like to know what Nancy Pelosi thinks about Iran getting
>nukes.
Anyone who thinks that the US can't stop Iran from developing nuclear
weapons doesn't understand the capabilities of the US military. In
reality, the US could achieve the goal without ever hitting a single
nuclear site in Iran. The US, using air strikes alone, could make it
impossible for Iran to function as a modern society in as little as
two days. The US doesn't need to destroy Iran's nuclear sites, it
just needs to convince the Iranian government to give up its nuclear
program. This is similar to what happened to the Serbs in Kosova.
NATO (90% US air power) just continued to bomb the Serbs until they
gave up.
Israel, on the other hand, would find it tough going to do more than
superficial damage to Iran's nuclear program.
Here is an extensive analysis of Israel's military options.
The Consequences of an Israeli Strike
Some military experts in Israel have said that Iranian rhetoric
calling for the destruction of Israel is more a smokescreen and excuse
for creating an Iran nuclear monopoly in the Gulf than a sign of any
serious willingness or desired to engage Israel. Others have said
the opposite. Even if Iran’s nuclear ambitions are mainly centered on
the US presence in the Gulf and other Muslim and Arab states, however,
this may not deter Israel from preventive or preemptive action in
dealing with an existential threat, where one or two nuclear ground
bursts centered on Tel Aviv and Haifa could virtually destroy Israel
as a state.
A number of Israeli officers, officials and experts have said that
Israel must not permit the Iranians acquire nuclear capabilities,
regardless of Tehran’s motivations. Some have called for preemptive
strikes by Israel. Ephraim Inbar, the President of the Jaffee Center
for Strategic Studies, said, For self-defense, we must act in a
pre-emptive mode.
Israeli military officials were quoted in press reports in January
2006, as saying that the IDF got the order to get ready for a military
strike against Iranian nuclear sites by ch 2006. It is unclear what
type of military strikes Israel may chose, if it decides to respond
preemptively. Some have argued that Israel may declare its nuclear
weapons and establish a mutually assured destruction: deterrence.
While the impact of an Israeli declaration remains uncertain, it is
likely to have little impact on Israel’s strategic posture in the
region, since most states factor Israel’s nuclear weapons into their
strategic thinking.
Some experts argued that Israel does not have viable military options.
They argue it does not have US targeting capability and simply cannot
generate and sustain the necessary number of attack sorties. Some
argue that Israel might do little more than drive Iranian activity
further underground, provoke even more Iranian activity, make it
impossible for diplomatic and UN pressure to work, and make Israel
into a real, rather than proxy or secondary target.
There is no doubt that such a strike would face problems. The Israelis
do not have conventional ballistic missiles or land/sea-based cruise
missiles suited for such a mission. The shortest flight routes would
be around 1,500-1,700 kilometers through Jordan and
Iraq, 1,900-2,100 kilometers through Saudi Arabia, and 2,600-2,800
kilometers in a loop through Turkey.
All such missions would probably be detected relatively quickly by the
radars in the countries involved, and very low-altitude penetration
profiles would lead to serious range-payload problems. The countries
overflown would be confronted with the need to either react or have
limited credibility in claiming surprise. An over flight of Iraq would
be seen in the region as having to have had a US green light. Iran
would almost certainly see Jordanian, Turkish, and/or Saudi tolerance
of such an IAF strike as a hostile act. It might well claim a US green
light in any case in an effort to mobilize hostile Arab and Muslim
(and possibly world) reactions.
Israel has configured its F-15s and F-16s for long-range strikes, and
has refueling capability. It is doubtful, however, that it has enough
refueling capability to do more than send a strike force that would
have to defend itself without a significant fighter escort or
support from electronic warfare aircraft. Its strike aircraft would
probably need close to maximum payloads to achieve the necessary level
of damage against most targets suspected of WMD activity, although any
given structure could be destroyed with 1-3 weapons. (This would
include the main Bushehr reactor enclosure, but is real-world
potential value to an Iranian nuclear program is limited compared to
more dispersed and/or hardened targets).
The IAF’s mix of stand-off precision-guided missiles -- such as
Harpoon or Popeye might not have the required lethality with
conventional warheads. (Wildly differing reports exist about the range
of the Popeye, which is deployed in the US as the Have Nap
missile, The base system has a range of around 60-70 kilometers.
Popeye II has a range of 150 kilometers. Reports have been made about
improved turbo versions with ranges of 200-350 kilometers.) There
have even been reports of air or subine launched
versions with ranges of 1,500 kilometers. (One report notes that,
Israel is reported to possess a 200kg nuclear warhead, containing 6kg
of plutonium, that could be mounted on cruise missiles.
This would greatly increase Israeli survivability and penetration
capability, However, multiple strikes on the dispersed buildings and
entries in a number of facilities would be necessary to ensure
adequate damage without restrikes. Restrikes would require repeated
penetration into Arab air space and do not seem to feasible planning
criteria for Israeli commanders to use.
Much has been made of Israel’s purchase of 500 BLU-109 Have Void
bunker busters, but considerable caution is needed about such reports.
These are 2,000-pound weapons that are far less effective against
deeply buried targets than the much larger US weapons described
earlier. The standard version is a dumb bomb with a maximum
penetration capability of 4 to 6 feet of reinforced concrete. An
aircraft must overfly the target and launch the weapon with great
precision to achieve serious penetration capability. It is possible to
fit the weapon with precision guidance and convert it to a guided
glide bomb and the US may have sold such a version or Israel may have
modified them. The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) GBU-31 can be
fitted to the bomb to give it a nominal range of 15 kilometers with a
Circular Error Probable (CEP) of 13 meters in the GPS-aided INS modes
of operation and 30 meters in the INS-only modes of operation.102Open
source reporting, however, does not provide any data on such
capabilities.
It is also possible that Israel actually purchased the BLU-116
Advanced Unitary Penetrator [AUP], GBU-24 C/B (USAF), or GBU-24 D/B
(Navy) which has about three times the penetration capability of the
BLU-109.103 At least limited refueling would be required, and back-up
refueling and recovery would be an issue. Many have compared current
Israeli military options with Iran to that of the 1981 attack
against Iraq’s Osiraq reactor, and have noted the conditions are very
different. For example, Peter Brookes, a military expert, argued that
have argued that Israel has several options including satellite-guided
JDAM bombs, cruise missiles on subines, and Special Operation
Forces. He, however, argued that attacking Iranian nuclear facilities
are much tougher to target given the nature of the Iranian nuclear
facilities and the strategic balance in the region.
Yet, these are problems to be solved, not insuperable barriers. Israel
has the capabilities to carry out at last one set of air strikes, and
senior US officials have warned about this capability. Vice President
Richard Cheney suggested on January 20, 2005 that, Given
the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the
destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first,
and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning
up the diplomatic mess afterwards.
General Moshe Ya’alon, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was quoted as
saying in August 2004 that Iran must not be permitted to acquire
nuclear weapons. He added that Israel must not rely on the rest of the
world to stop Iran from going nuclear because he said a nuclear
Iran would change the Middle East where Moderate States would become
more extreme. General Ya’alon also indicated that Israel might
conduct such attacks without using its aircraft, triggering a wide
range of speculation about Israeli and US covert operatives and
special forces conducting such strikes.
Israel may have specially designed or adapted weapons for such
strikes, and bought 500 bunker busters from the United States in
February 2005. Experts speculated whether the purchase was a power
projection move or whether Israel was in fact planning to use these
conventional bombs against Iranian nuclear sites. These speculations
were further exacerbated with the Israeli Chief of Staff, Lt. General
Dan Halutz, was asked how far Israel would go to stop Iran’s nuclear
program, he said 2,000 kilometers.
Brig. General, Shlomo Brom, however, has argued that Israel’s
capabilities may not be enough to inflict enough damage on Iran’s
nuclear program: any Israeli attack on an Iranian nuclear target would
be a very complex operation in which a relatively large number of
attack aircraft and support aircraft (interceptors, ECM aircraft,
refuelers, and rescue aircraft) would participate. The conclusion is
that Israel could attack only a few Iranian targets and not as part of
a sustainable operation over time, but as a one time surprise
operation.
Even if Israel had the attack capabilities needed for the destruction
of the all elements of the Iranian nuclear program, it is doubtful
whether Israel has the kind of intelligence needed to be
certain that all the necessary elements of the program were traced and
destroyed fully. Israel has good photographic coverage of Iran with
the Ofeq series of reconnaissance satellites, but being so
distant from Iran, one can assume that other kinds of intelligence
coverage are rather partial and weak.
Covert action demands different kinds of operational capabilities and
intelligence. There is no indication that Israel has capabilities of
covert operations in Iran. The recent information about the
development of the Iranian program indicated that it reached a status
of being independent of external assistance. Moreover, the assistance
Iran got was mostly from Pakistan, another place which is not a
traditional area of operations for the Israeli secret services, like
Europe or South America. It seems that there is no real potential for
covert Israeli operations against the Iranian Nuclear program.
As is the case with a US strike, Iran has the capabilities to strike
back. In fact, it has threatened retaliation if attacked by Israel.
The Iranian Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, was quoted as saying
that an attack by Israel or the US would have severe
consequence, and threatened that Iran would retaliate by all means at
its disposal. Mottaki added: Iran does not think that the Zionist
regime is in a condition to engage in such a dangerous venture and
they know how severe the possible Iranian response will be
to its possible audacity, Suffice to say that the Zionist regime, if
they attack, will regret it.
Iran has several options to respond to an Israeli attack:
Multiple launches of Shahab-3 including the possibility of CBR
warheads against Tel Aviv, Israeli
military and civilian centers, and Israeli suspected nuclear weapons
sites.
Escalate the conflict using proxy groups such Hezbollah or Hamas to
attack Israel proper with
suicide bombings, covert CBR attacks, and missile attacks from
southern Lebanon and Syria.
Covert attacks against Israeli interests by its intelligence and IRGC
assets. This could include lowlevel bombings against Israeli
embassies, Jewish centers, and other Israeli assets outside and
inside Israel.
In addition, any Israeli military option would have to include an air
strike and would seriously complicate Israel’s fragile relations with
Jordan and may provoke Saudi Arabia to respond. An Israeli strike
against Iranian nuclear facilities may also strengthen the Iranian
regime’s stance to move toward nuclear capabilities, and drive many
neighboring states to support Iran’s bid for nuclear weapons. The US
will be seen as having given the green light for such Israeli strikes,
which could lead to further escalation of the Iraqi insurgency,
increase the threat of asymmetric attacks against America interests
and allies in the region, or even worse used as a justification cry
for attacks against the US homeland with CBR weapons by proxy groups
or through an alliance with groups such as al-Qa’ida.
On the other hand, Israeli officials have expressed the concern that
if Iran acquires nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them, this
may spark further proliferation in the region. This would spread WMD
capabilities around the Middle East, and greatly increase the threat
of CBRN attacks against Israel and the entire region. Waiting also
has its penalties.
http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 13:22:10
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
Pretty scary thought either way. If an attack on Iran occurs to stop their
nuclear forward movement; all hell breaks loose. If nothing is done;
sooner or later all hell breaks loose anyway. I still believe that
nothing will occur any time soon. I feel if Isreal was able to do
something; she already would have.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 16:26:27
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:22:10 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Jack Hollis wrote:
>> http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
>
>
>Pretty scary thought either way. If an attack on Iran occurs to stop their
>nuclear forward movement; all hell breaks loose. If nothing is done;
>sooner or later all hell breaks loose anyway. I still believe that
>nothing will occur any time soon. I feel if Isreal was able to do
>something; she already would have.
One can never underestimate the resourcefulness of the Israelis, but
attacking Iran's nuclear weapons sites is probably biting off more
than they can chew. They only have a chance of limited success and
the consequences could be worse than anything they achieve. I also
doubt that the US would support such an effort for the same reasons.
I suppose that Israel's hope is that the US will eventually do the
job. I don't see the US allowing Iran to continue its nuke program
too much longer without some action.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 18:21:53
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:22:10 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
>> Jack Hollis wrote:
>>> http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,3461/type,1/
>>
>>
>> Pretty scary thought either way. If an attack on Iran occurs to
>> stop their nuclear forward movement; all hell breaks loose. If
>> nothing is done; sooner or later all hell breaks loose anyway. I
>> still believe that nothing will occur any time soon. I feel if
>> Isreal was able to do something; she already would have.
>
> One can never underestimate the resourcefulness of the Israelis, but
> attacking Iran's nuclear weapons sites is probably biting off more
> than they can chew.
That is the impression I got from the article as well - that Israel does
not have the ability to do anything. The article is also correct in the
assertion that a ground burst in Haifa and Tel Aviv would mean the end of
Israel. At that point, Jews worldwide would have to implement a grass
roots retaliation against Islam; which is another event I do not see
happening.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 13:37:52
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:21:53 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>> One can never underestimate the resourcefulness of the Israelis, but
>> attacking Iran's nuclear weapons sites is probably biting off more
>> than they can chew.
>
>
>That is the impression I got from the article as well - that Israel does
>not have the ability to do anything. The article is also correct in the
>assertion that a ground burst in Haifa and Tel Aviv would mean the end of
>Israel. At that point, Jews worldwide would have to implement a grass
>roots retaliation against Islam; which is another event I do not see
>happening.
The big problem for Israel is that they have to violate the airspace
of countries going to and coming back from Iran. The path of least
resistance would be Syria and Iraq. Israel could do what it wants
over Syria without too much trouble. However, numerous flights over
Iraq could only be done with US approval. No one doubt that the US
could stop Israeli aircraft from flying over Iraq. So in that case,
the world could only construe (rightfully) that the US has approved
and is actively aiding the Israeli attacks. If that is the case, the
US might as well do the job itself.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 21:07:43
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> The big problem for Israel is that they have to violate the airspace
> of countries going to and coming back from Iran. The path of least
> resistance would be Syria and Iraq. Israel could do what it wants
> over Syria without too much trouble. However, numerous flights over
> Iraq could only be done with US approval. No one doubt that the US
> could stop Israeli aircraft from flying over Iraq. So in that case,
> the world could only construe (rightfully) that the US has approved
> and is actively aiding the Israeli attacks. If that is the case, the
> US might as well do the job itself.
Actually; Israel recently purchased three dolphin class subines;
capable of going to the coast of Iran and delivering cruise missile based
nuclear weapons (harpoon class) about 150 kilometers. They also own three
Gal class subs that are just now completing a re-fit.
http://www.nti.org/db/subines/israel/index.html
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:10:14
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:07:43 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Actually; Israel recently purchased three dolphin class subines;
>capable of going to the coast of Iran and delivering cruise missile based
>nuclear weapons (harpoon class) about 150 kilometers. They also own three
>Gal class subs that are just now completing a re-fit.
Interesting. This would certainly add some punch to an Israeli
attack. However, an effective attack on Iran's nuclear facilities
would require a lot of the big bunker buster bombs that are dropped by
bombers. This would also add some punch to a nuclear counter strike
in case that is necessary.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:32:26
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:07:43 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually; Israel recently purchased three dolphin class subines;
>> capable of going to the coast of Iran and delivering cruise missile
>> based nuclear weapons (harpoon class) about 150 kilometers. They
>> also own three Gal class subs that are just now completing a re-fit.
>
> Interesting. This would certainly add some punch to an Israeli
> attack. However, an effective attack on Iran's nuclear facilities
> would require a lot of the big bunker buster bombs that are dropped by
> bombers. This would also add some punch to a nuclear counter strike
> in case that is necessary.
Heaven forbid they need to do a counter strike. By the time that occured;
all of Tel Aviv and Haifa are gone.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 12:19:25
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> Israel is going to do the world a favor. They WILL
> NOT allow Iran to develop.
Actually, Israel is in a bit of a predicament. USA has a policy of not
giving foreign aid to anyone who is not in the nuke-ban club. Israel never
admits to having nukes because she likes that $3.6 billion a year in foreign
aid (mostly weapons and such). If Israel nukes Iran; then she is known to
have nukes and the end of the aid occurs. Personally; I think it's
bullshit that USA gives any money to foreign countries; so Israel nuking
Iran is probably a good thing in that regard.
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 22:47:30
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:19:25 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Actually, Israel is in a bit of a predicament. USA has a policy of not
>giving foreign aid to anyone who is not in the nuke-ban club. Israel never
>admits to having nukes because she likes that $3.6 billion a year in foreign
>aid (mostly weapons and such). If Israel nukes Iran; then she is known to
>have nukes and the end of the aid occurs. Personally; I think it's
>bullshit that USA gives any money to foreign countries; so Israel nuking
>Iran is probably a good thing in that regard.
Bribing foreign countries with foreign aid can be cheaper than
alternative ways of making them comply to our wishes.
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Dec 2006 11:11:09
From: MnMikew
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:0n01o21adgukdtt457hdp957064351rdgq@4ax.com...
>
> Bribing foreign countries with foreign aid can be cheaper than
> alternative ways of making them comply to our wishes.
But rarely works.
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 15:19:21
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:19:25 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>Actually, Israel is in a bit of a predicament. USA has a policy of not
>giving foreign aid to anyone who is not in the nuke-ban club. Israel never
>admits to having nukes because she likes that $3.6 billion a year in foreign
>aid (mostly weapons and such).
A few minor corrections: Olmert said Israel had nukes on German TV
yesterday. And Bob Gates said Israel had nukes in his confirmation
hearing for SecDef last week. And we give aid to India and Pakistan,
both openly nuclear, neither signatories to the non-proliferation
treaty (which would be a huge joke in the case of Pakistan, which sold
nukes to almost everybody but Iraq).
If you read even one newspaper a year, you know that there is
absolutely nothing that Israel could do that would end our aid. The
USS Liberty incident should prove that, even to the slow learners.
And all we get for it is the enduring hatred of the Muslim world.
|
| | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 18:41:35
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
multi wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:19:25 -0500, "Head Shot"
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>> Actually, Israel is in a bit of a predicament. USA has a policy of
>> not giving foreign aid to anyone who is not in the nuke-ban club.
>> Israel never admits to having nukes because she likes that $3.6
>> billion a year in foreign aid (mostly weapons and such).
>
> A few minor corrections: Olmert said Israel had nukes on German TV
> yesterday. And Bob Gates said Israel had nukes in his confirmation
> hearing for SecDef last week. And we give aid to India and Pakistan,
> both openly nuclear, neither signatories to the non-proliferation
> treaty (which would be a huge joke in the case of Pakistan, which sold
> nukes to almost everybody but Iraq).
>
> If you read even one newspaper a year, you know that there is
> absolutely nothing that Israel could do that would end our aid. The
> USS Liberty incident should prove that, even to the slow learners.
> And all we get for it is the enduring hatred of the Muslim world.
So Reuters is lying?
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L07899735&WTmodLoc=World-R5-Alertnet-3&rpc=92
U.S. AID
By not declaring itself to be nuclear armed, Israel also skirts a U.S. ban
on funding countries that proliferate weapons of mass destruction. It can
thus enjoy more than $2 billion in annual military and other aid from
Washington.
Though Gates was appointed as part of a move by U.S. President George W.
Bush to revitalise prospects for Iraq and a wider peace in the Middle East,
no one has yet gone as far as to propose openly that Washington review
Israel's open secret.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 16:58:32
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:41:35 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>multi wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:19:25 -0500, "Head Shot"
>> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, Israel is in a bit of a predicament. USA has a policy of
>>> not giving foreign aid to anyone who is not in the nuke-ban club.
>>> Israel never admits to having nukes because she likes that $3.6
>>> billion a year in foreign aid (mostly weapons and such).
>>
>> A few minor corrections: Olmert said Israel had nukes on German TV
>> yesterday. And Bob Gates said Israel had nukes in his confirmation
>> hearing for SecDef last week. And we give aid to India and Pakistan,
>> both openly nuclear, neither signatories to the non-proliferation
>> treaty (which would be a huge joke in the case of Pakistan, which sold
>> nukes to almost everybody but Iraq).
>>
>> If you read even one newspaper a year, you know that there is
>> absolutely nothing that Israel could do that would end our aid. The
>> USS Liberty incident should prove that, even to the slow learners.
>> And all we get for it is the enduring hatred of the Muslim world.
>
>
>So Reuters is lying?
>
>http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L07899735&WTmodLoc=World-R5-Alertnet-3&rpc=92
>
>U.S. AID
>By not declaring itself to be nuclear armed, Israel also skirts a U.S. ban
>on funding countries that proliferate weapons of mass destruction. It can
>thus enjoy more than $2 billion in annual military and other aid from
>Washington.
More likely, Reuters is right about the ban, but Bush ignores it, as
he ignores any law he doesn't like. Are you disputing that we give
aid to India and Pakistan, or that they have nuclear weapons?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 21:07:29
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
multi wrote:
> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>> So Reuters is lying?
>>
>> http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L07899735&WTmodLoc=World-R5-Alertnet-3&rpc=92
>>
>> U.S. AID
>> By not declaring itself to be nuclear armed, Israel also skirts a
>> U.S. ban on funding countries that proliferate weapons of mass
>> destruction. It can thus enjoy more than $2 billion in annual
>> military and other aid from Washington.
>
> More likely, Reuters is right about the ban, but Bush ignores it, as
> he ignores any law he doesn't like. Are you disputing that we give
> aid to India and Pakistan, or that they have nuclear weapons?
I do not know if we give aid to those two countries (maybe just humanitarian
aid goes to them?); but I do know we give $3.6 billion per year to Israel
and that I have read (many times) what I showed you - that Israel loses the
cash and arms if they admit to being a Nuclear power.
--
___________________________________________________________
A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises,
I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it
gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas
Jefferson
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Dec 2006 11:23:39
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:07:29 -0500, "Head Shot"
<HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote:
>multi wrote:
>> <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote:
>>> So Reuters is lying?
>>>
>>> http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L07899735&WTmodLoc=World-R5-Alertnet-3&rpc=92
>>>
>>> U.S. AID
>>> By not declaring itself to be nuclear armed, Israel also skirts a
>>> U.S. ban on funding countries that proliferate weapons of mass
>>> destruction. It can thus enjoy more than $2 billion in annual
>>> military and other aid from Washington.
>>
>> More likely, Reuters is right about the ban, but Bush ignores it, as
>> he ignores any law he doesn't like. Are you disputing that we give
>> aid to India and Pakistan, or that they have nuclear weapons?
>
>I do not know if we give aid to those two countries (maybe just humanitarian
>aid goes to them?);
Correct, if by "humanitarian" you mean "nuclear."
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200612132121.htm
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 10:00:45
From: MnMikew
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
<lobshot694@bellsouth.net > wrote in message
news:1165936249.934303.47120@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Sure would like to know what Nancy Pelosi thinks about Iran getting
> nukes.
>
I'll sure she'll ask them while shes on the coddle and cuddle tour with Iran
and Syria. This should be more than enough of a sign that these folks cannot
be dealt with diplomatically.
|
| |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 02:12:12
From: Carbon
Subject: Re: Bobby Knight craves Larry's c*ck all over him
|
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:53:05 +0000, PorchMonkey4Life wrote:
> B*tch, larry has as$raped you so badly that your punk as$ needs to call
> a rape counselor to find out how best to deal with Larry's c8ck in your
> as$ and mouth.
>
> I heard Larry gave you a dirty sanchez the other day. Larry's not gay he
> just like getting his salad tossed by transexual losers like you. Now
> get back on your knees and what for Larry's protein explosion on your
> face.
>> bk
>
> Bendover b*tch as get ready for some as$ action.
Heya, Eric!
|
| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 22:12:21
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:
> John B. wrote:
>> I've never before started a political thread here, but this story
>> just makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a
>> "scholarly" conference to determine whether the Holocaust really
>> happened. Un-fucking-believable.
>
>
> It is not unbelievable at all. What would you expect out of a place
> like Iran. Like I have said before, they are just barely advanced
> beyond the stone age. And people wonder why we should really be
> worried about them getting nukes. THAT is what is unbelievable.
We should be worried; but I don't think there is anything we can do about
it. I believe if we thought something could be done; it already would
have.
|
| |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 17:23:22
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Head Shot wrote:
. You are a village idiot; looking for a village that is willing to
take you in.
Surely you have your hero Hillary's book handy....send him a copy. : >
BTW.....which camp did she survive?
-Greg
|
| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 21:01:16
From: Defendario
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
Dene wrote:
> Head Shot wrote:
>
> . You are a village idiot; looking for a village that is willing to
> take you in.
>
> Surely you have your hero Hillary's book handy....send him a copy. :>
>
> BTW.....which camp did she survive?
>
Joy Division?
> -Greg
>
How many Nazis did she give head to?
;D
>
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 02:09:29
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Crosspost Alert was ( Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?)
|
Watch the reply to's...
"Defendario" <Defendario@netscape.com > wrote in message
news:4u6gp2F16th6gU3@mid.individual.net...
> Dene wrote:
>> Head Shot wrote:
>>
>> . You are a village idiot; looking for a village that is willing to
>> take you in.
>>
>> Surely you have your hero Hillary's book handy....send him a copy. :>
>>
>> BTW.....which camp did she survive?
>>
>
> Joy Division?
>
>> -Greg
>>
>
> How many Nazis did she give head to?
>
> ;D
>
>>
>
|
| |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 15:46:09
From: NH
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
The "holocaust" - a house of cards built with a pack of lies. Why do
people think the Nazis DID NOT gas the jews? Watch:
Judea Declares War on Germany: A Critical Look at WWII
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5467701992662742210
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2006 01:56:45
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
NH <nighthawk6677@yahoo.com > wrote:
[not worth repeating]
Fuck off, troll. It's not funny.
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
|
| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2006 19:48:12
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
|
NH wrote:
> The "holocaust" - a house of cards built with a pack of lies. Why do
> people think the Nazis DID NOT gas the jews? Watch:
My wife's grandmother survived a concentration camp. You are a village
idiot; looking for a village that is willing to take you in.
|
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 19:43:33
From: William A. T. Clark
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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In article <1165880769.525774.145770@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com >,
"NH" <nighthawk6677@yahoo.com > wrote:
> The "holocaust" - a house of cards built with a pack of lies. Why do
> people think the Nazis DID NOT gas the jews? Watch:
>
> Judea Declares War on Germany: A Critical Look at WWII
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5467701992662742210
Oh, good Lord. Just one mention and these cockroaches come crawling out
of the woodwork..
William Clark
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 20:04:20
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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John B. <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
: I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
: makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
: conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
: Un-fucking-believable.
Who do they think they are, Mel Gibson?
--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 13:59:56
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On 11 Dec 2006 07:58:30 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
>makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
>conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
>Un-fucking-believable.
Is Jimmy Carter speaking?
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 12:17:52
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:59:56 -0500, Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com >
wrote:
>On 11 Dec 2006 07:58:30 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
>>makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
>>conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
>>Un-fucking-believable.
>
>Is Jimmy Carter speaking?
Carter is probably responsible for saving more Israeli lives than
anyone else in the world. The peace treaty he negotiated between
Israel and Egypt, their former worst enemy, has never been violated.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 12:10:47
From: multi
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:59:56 -0500, Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com >
wrote:
>On 11 Dec 2006 07:58:30 -0800, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
>>makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
>>conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
>>Un-fucking-believable.
>
>Is Jimmy Carter speaking?
Yes, anyone who has ever been critical of any Israeli policy is a
holocaust denier, you moron.
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Date: 11 Dec 2006 09:13:46
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Iran: Did the Holocaust Really Happen?
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John B. wrote:
> I've never before started a political thread here, but this story just
> makes me want to puke. The govt. of Iran is sponsoring a "scholarly"
> conference to determine whether the Holocaust really happened.
> Un-fucking-believable.
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121100198.html
The degree of historical and actual hatred on that side of the planet
is unbelievable, which lends the question.... What are we doing over
there?
-Greg
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