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Main
Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:14:13
From: John B.
Subject: Hands at top of backswing
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I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
wonder how others do it.
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 13:54:43
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
> dsc wrote:
> > blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Hogan followed all of these points and had his hands under
> > > the shaft at the top of the backswing. To achieve this a
> > > mild wrist cupping was used.
> >
> > I consider that a compensation... :)
>
> I'm a firm believer there is more that one way to do it. Hogan
> and Jones and Nicklaus and Watson were all GREAT
> strikers of the ball, and all had significant differences
> in their full swing. Repeatability is the key, and the key
> to being a good teacher is understanding how to take
> someone from where they sit to a more repeatable
> swing..no easy task with the wide variety of
> swings that work to a reasonable degree.
I won't disagree with any of that... Couples is a good example. He'll
tell you his swing isn't perfect (I heard him say it on playing lessons
with the pros). It's got a compensation or two in it... but before back
trouble he compensated consistently.
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 12:51:49
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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dsc wrote:
> blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hogan followed all of these points and had his hands under
> > the shaft at the top of the backswing. To achieve this a
> > mild wrist cupping was used.
>
> I consider that a compensation... :)
I'm a firm believer there is more that one way to do it. Hogan
and Jones and Nicklaus and Watson were all GREAT
strikers of the ball, and all had significant differences
in their full swing. Repeatability is the key, and the key
to being a good teacher is understanding how to take
someone from where they sit to a more repeatable
swing..no easy task with the wide variety of
swings that work to a reasonable degree.
-PA
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 07:37:05
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
> dsc wrote:
> > David Laville wrote:
> > > On 2 Sep 2006 18:13:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
> > > >that's obvious.
> > >
> > > Sure it can, Harry Vardon proved you can play with a bent left arm.
> >
> > I just picked up my living room 4I... David is dead on. With my right
> > elbow tucked tightly
> > I can only get my hands to shoulder high (about 3/4 position). I could
> > not reach the full swing position. I see no reason you could not play
> > good golf from that position, but it makes the discussion of the thumbs
> > being under the shaft at the top... meaningless. :) It also
> > demonstrates that any player that can reach the full top of swing
> > position with anything resembling a straight left arm... is unlikely to
> > be tucking the elbow tight to the chest.
> >
> > Feel free to try it yourself. :)
>
> I largely agree, but I think it is only if you use a poor definition
> of what the "full top" of the swing is that you come to the
> conclusion the left arm needs to be bent.
My definition is shaft parallel to the ground and parallel to the
target line... so tell me what's poor about that? :)
>
> The shoulders can turn only so far as they do not knock the
> head off axis. With the right elbow tucked, and the left arm
> straight, you can get to parallel - barely.
Well... I can't. I can make a bit more than 90 degrees shoulder
turn... maybe up to 110. I cannot get the club to parallel with a
tucked right elbow. Now I don't have to untuck it very much to get
parallel (or beyond)... but I do have to untuck it.
> To get there you also
> need a little left eye head turn.
Why? I can already turn my shoulders fully without doing that? I keep
my chin up out of the way where it belongs.
> Of course you cannot get the arm and hands as high as
> you can with a swing that breaks Hogan's plane. But if you
> start with a faulty definition about where the backswing should
> end,
Again... what's faulty with my definition?
> then I agree completely that you need to bend the left
> elbow to get there...but that is pointless semantics. The backswing
> ends when the front shoulder cannot turn any further without
> bumping the head (if the elbow is tucked).
If your shoulder is hitting your head... you need to raise your head.
"Keep your head down" is very bad advice to most people.
> Hogan followed all of these points and had his hands under
> the shaft at the top of the backswing. To achieve this a
> mild wrist cupping was used.
I consider that a compensation... :)
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:32:47
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 3 Sep 2006 07:37:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>> I largely agree, but I think it is only if you use a poor definition
>> of what the "full top" of the swing is that you come to the
>> conclusion the left arm needs to be bent.
>
>My definition is shaft parallel to the ground and parallel to the
>target line... so tell me what's poor about that? :)
I don't take anything this guy says seriously and read what he writes
for amusement. Remember, this is the guy who told us there is no such
thing as a two plane swing and then a couple of days later was telling
us about his cousin's two plane swing.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 04:51:51
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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dsc wrote:
> David Laville wrote:
> > On 2 Sep 2006 18:13:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
> > >that's obvious.
> >
> > Sure it can, Harry Vardon proved you can play with a bent left arm.
>
> I just picked up my living room 4I... David is dead on. With my right
> elbow tucked tightly
> I can only get my hands to shoulder high (about 3/4 position). I could
> not reach the full swing position. I see no reason you could not play
> good golf from that position, but it makes the discussion of the thumbs
> being under the shaft at the top... meaningless. :) It also
> demonstrates that any player that can reach the full top of swing
> position with anything resembling a straight left arm... is unlikely to
> be tucking the elbow tight to the chest.
>
> Feel free to try it yourself. :)
I largely agree, but I think it is only if you use a poor definition
of what the "full top" of the swing is that you come to the
conclusion the left arm needs to be bent.
The shoulders can turn only so far as they do not knock the
head off axis. With the right elbow tucked, and the left arm
straight, you can get to parallel - barely. To get there you also
need a little left eye head turn.
Of course you cannot get the arm and hands as high as
you can with a swing that breaks Hogan's plane. But if you
start with a faulty definition about where the backswing should
end, then I agree completely that you need to bend the left
elbow to get there...but that is pointless semantics. The backswing
ends when the front shoulder cannot turn any further without
bumping the head (if the elbow is tucked).
Hogan followed all of these points and had his hands under
the shaft at the top of the backswing. To achieve this a
mild wrist cupping was used.
-PA
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:32:18
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 3 Sep 2006 04:51:51 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>The shoulders can turn only so far as they do not knock the
>head off axis.
Your shoulders do not knock your head off axis unless you have your
chin tucked into your chest. Look in a mirror and you'll see your
shoulders are lower than your chin. Just because you have a poor
setup don't come to the conclusion that what you do is the universal
way.
>Hogan followed all of these points and had his hands under
>the shaft at the top of the backswing. To achieve this a
>mild wrist cupping was used.
And do you know why he cupped his wrist when the weak left hand grip
he used is conducive to an arched wrist?
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:32:44
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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David Laville wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 18:13:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> >I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
> >that's obvious.
>
> Sure it can, Harry Vardon proved you can play with a bent left arm.
I just picked up my living room 4I... David is dead on. With my right
elbow tucked tightly
I can only get my hands to shoulder high (about 3/4 position). I could
not reach the full swing position. I see no reason you could not play
good golf from that position, but it makes the discussion of the thumbs
being under the shaft at the top... meaningless. :) It also
demonstrates that any player that can reach the full top of swing
position with anything resembling a straight left arm... is unlikely to
be tucking the elbow tight to the chest.
Feel free to try it yourself. :)
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 18:13:05
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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David Laville wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 03:41:42 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >The right elbow can take positions closer to, or further from, the
> >wall of the chest on the backswing. If it is closer then the backswing
> >is flatter. It had nothing to do with bending the left elbow.
> >
> >If the right elbow is nearly fixed relative to the torso, the left arm
> >will move relative to the right, and the forearms will rotate so that
> >at the top of the backswing the grip of the club is over the hands.
>
> This is so bad I don't even know how to start a reply.
I take a stab at part of it...
I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
that's obvious. I'll even agree that closer to the torso may promote a
flatter swing... more around the body.
I'm having a little more problem digesting the second paragraph... but
assuming that the thumbs are under the shaft at the top when you assume
the so called ideal plane, then it stands to reason that flattening the
plane (by keeping the elbow against the ribs or any other method) would
also change the relationship of the thumbs to the shaft at the top of
the swing unless you make some kind of compensating move in the back
swing. The thumbs would be slightly inside the shaft at the top... and
not directly under it.
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 02:05:12
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 2 Sep 2006 18:13:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu > wrote:
>I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
>that's obvious.
Sure it can, Harry Vardon proved you can play with a bent left arm.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 02:19:32
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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David Laville wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2006 18:13:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> >I'll agree that the elbow can be variouos distances from the torso...
> >that's obvious.
>
> Sure it can, Harry Vardon proved you can play with a bent left arm.
So did Calvin Peete, although that was the least of his problems.
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 03:41:42
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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David Laville wrote:
> Do you make this stuff up as you go along? 1) You cannot keep the
> right elbow close to your chest and not bend the left arm. Tell this
> to someone who doesn't know any better. 2) Keeping your right elbow
> close to your chest does not rotate the forearms, they are two
> different planes of motion.
The right elbow can take positions closer to, or further from, the
wall of the chest on the backswing. If it is closer then the backswing
is flatter. It had nothing to do with bending the left elbow.
If the right elbow is nearly fixed relative to the torso, the left arm
will move relative to the right, and the forearms will rotate so that
at the top of the backswing the grip of the club is over the hands.
-PA
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Date: 02 Sep 2006 16:03:31
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 2 Sep 2006 03:41:42 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>The right elbow can take positions closer to, or further from, the
>wall of the chest on the backswing. If it is closer then the backswing
>is flatter. It had nothing to do with bending the left elbow.
>
>If the right elbow is nearly fixed relative to the torso, the left arm
>will move relative to the right, and the forearms will rotate so that
>at the top of the backswing the grip of the club is over the hands.
This is so bad I don't even know how to start a reply.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 15:43:42
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 1 Sep 2006 09:07:02 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com> wrote:
>
> >> I need a camera (or someone's trained eye) to tell how I do it - it's
> >> amazing how different I think my position is from what it really is.
> >
> >No you don't-- you just need to evaluate your ball flight. Real
> >simple, If the ball goes toward the target consistently-- then WHO
> >CARES what position your hands are in on top or anyplace else?
> >Whatever you are doing, just keep doing that and get better at it--
> >
> >I always hope for an opponent worrying about trivia like that-- because
> >I know he will beat himself during the match-- start analyzing and
> >thinking of details as he swings, and become the proverbial basket
> >case-- "paralysis by analysis."
>
> When pros go to see their coach, almost always, the first thing they
> ask is "How is my setup?", and they include their position at the top
> in that question. Hackers like me hardly ever ask that.
>
> Good players don't need much adjustment to fix their problems, and
> those adjustments usually involve positioning.
Actually a REALLY good teaching pro (and not the guy down the street
teaching for $40 a lesson) will watch you swing-- and mainly focus on
the ball flight. If he sees a swing that will repeat and can be
improved upon with simply more practice and play-- he will be very
reluctant to tinker with it. He knows that the slightest change will
screw you up for weeks. He will suggest you instead jjust discuss the
stock ket or the political situation and suggest you to go jpractice
your short game.
The best lesson in Harvey Penick's book is about a member of his
college team losing to a student on another team with a "horrible"
appearing golf swing-- but which functioned and repeated; the guy could
score. I think the most important "secret" in golf is "if it ain't
broke-- don't fix it!" And that from someone who has admittedly had a
dozen+ 'secrets.' Nobody tinkered with that student's "horrible"
swing because like Furyk and Trevino and Allen Doyle, and Quiggley, he
could score.
Most high handicappers who have been playing for years are still
shooting high scores priily because they keep changing things--have
been doing that for years and years-- and then this next Saturday
morning they show up with the standard excuse, "I just had a lesson, so
I am going to be a basket-case today!"
larry
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 14:57:15
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> cja wrote:
> > John B. wrote:
> > > pete z wrote:
> > > > John B. wrote:
> > > > > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > > > > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > > > > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > > > > wonder how others do it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
> > >
> > > No. Don't you think I would have mentioned that?
> > >
> > You must not be saying what you mean. People are talking about left
> > hand parallel to the swing plane, glfnaz had a good explanation. Tell
> > us about the angle of your left wrist. Flat? Bowed? Cupped? The bowed
> > position (laid off) may be what you're talking about, but the back of
> > the hand parallel to the ground would be a severe lay off. Cupped so
> > much that the back of your hand is perpendicular to the ground is also
> > extreme, and would make it hard to fight the over the top move on the
> > downswing.
> >
> > I've been fighting a cupped left wrist for years. It's getting better,
> > but I don't always trust it. That laid off feeling sometimes makes me
> > think I'll snap hook it. I find easier power with the flat wrist,
> > cupping is a power leak for me. My go-to shot under pressure seems to
> > be a fade, with the slight wrist cup. When I can relax and keep the
> > wrist flat, it's nice.
> >
> > - cja
>
>
> My wrist is flat. I used to bend it so that my knuckles were pointing
> straight up, but I've learned not to do that. What I asked is if my
> left palm should be facing the ground (and thus my right palm facing
> upward), or if it should be perpendicular to the ground, or somewhere
> in between. But I think I've got it figured out now. Thanks.
If your left hand is on plane (it should be near to that)... the palm
is more or less perpendicular to that plane. Same for the right... more
or less.
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 09:07:02
From: larryrsf
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 09:14:13 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> >ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> >perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> >wonder how others do it.
>
> I need a camera (or someone's trained eye) to tell how I do it - it's
> amazing how different I think my position is from what it really is.
No you don't-- you just need to evaluate your ball flight. Real
simple, If the ball goes toward the target consistently-- then WHO
CARES what position your hands are in on top or anyplace else?
Whatever you are doing, just keep doing that and get better at it--
I always hope for an opponent worrying about trivia like that-- because
I know he will beat himself during the match-- start analyzing and
thinking of details as he swings, and become the proverbial basket
case-- "paralysis by analysis."
Larry
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 22:11:19
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 1 Sep 2006 09:07:02 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
>> I need a camera (or someone's trained eye) to tell how I do it - it's
>> amazing how different I think my position is from what it really is.
>
>No you don't-- you just need to evaluate your ball flight. Real
>simple, If the ball goes toward the target consistently-- then WHO
>CARES what position your hands are in on top or anyplace else?
>Whatever you are doing, just keep doing that and get better at it--
>
>I always hope for an opponent worrying about trivia like that-- because
>I know he will beat himself during the match-- start analyzing and
>thinking of details as he swings, and become the proverbial basket
>case-- "paralysis by analysis."
When pros go to see their coach, almost always, the first thing they
ask is "How is my setup?", and they include their position at the top
in that question. Hackers like me hardly ever ask that.
Good players don't need much adjustment to fix their problems, and
those adjustments usually involve positioning.
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:54:51
From: Ernie
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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In article <1157126822.629255.243670@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
"larryrsf" <larry@deldata.com > wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
> > On 30 Aug 2006 09:14:13 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > >ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > >perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > >wonder how others do it.
> >
> > I need a camera (or someone's trained eye) to tell how I do it - it's
> > amazing how different I think my position is from what it really is.
>
> No you don't-- you just need to evaluate your ball flight. Real
> simple, If the ball goes toward the target consistently-- then WHO
> CARES what position your hands are in on top or anyplace else?
> Whatever you are doing, just keep doing that and get better at it--
>
> I always hope for an opponent worrying about trivia like that-- because
> I know he will beat himself during the match-- start analyzing and
> thinking of details as he swings, and become the proverbial basket
> case-- "paralysis by analysis."
>
> Larry
LOL
You sure you're not projecting, Larry. You've only had... What? ...ten
"secrets" in the past two years?
Anyway, anyone who's gotten to the point where is is checking that he's
getting his hands to the right position at the top is going to kick the
butt of a guy who regularly shoots in high 80s; as you do.
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 07:43:31
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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cja wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > pete z wrote:
> > > John B. wrote:
> > > > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > > > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > > > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > > > wonder how others do it.
> > >
> > >
> > > I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
> >
> > No. Don't you think I would have mentioned that?
> >
> You must not be saying what you mean. People are talking about left
> hand parallel to the swing plane, glfnaz had a good explanation. Tell
> us about the angle of your left wrist. Flat? Bowed? Cupped? The bowed
> position (laid off) may be what you're talking about, but the back of
> the hand parallel to the ground would be a severe lay off. Cupped so
> much that the back of your hand is perpendicular to the ground is also
> extreme, and would make it hard to fight the over the top move on the
> downswing.
>
> I've been fighting a cupped left wrist for years. It's getting better,
> but I don't always trust it. That laid off feeling sometimes makes me
> think I'll snap hook it. I find easier power with the flat wrist,
> cupping is a power leak for me. My go-to shot under pressure seems to
> be a fade, with the slight wrist cup. When I can relax and keep the
> wrist flat, it's nice.
>
> - cja
My wrist is flat. I used to bend it so that my knuckles were pointing
straight up, but I've learned not to do that. What I asked is if my
left palm should be facing the ground (and thus my right palm facing
upward), or if it should be perpendicular to the ground, or somewhere
in between. But I think I've got it figured out now. Thanks.
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 06:57:54
From: cja
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
|
John B. wrote:
> pete z wrote:
> > John B. wrote:
> > > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > > wonder how others do it.
> >
> >
> > I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
>
> No. Don't you think I would have mentioned that?
>
You must not be saying what you mean. People are talking about left
hand parallel to the swing plane, glfnaz had a good explanation. Tell
us about the angle of your left wrist. Flat? Bowed? Cupped? The bowed
position (laid off) may be what you're talking about, but the back of
the hand parallel to the ground would be a severe lay off. Cupped so
much that the back of your hand is perpendicular to the ground is also
extreme, and would make it hard to fight the over the top move on the
downswing.
I've been fighting a cupped left wrist for years. It's getting better,
but I don't always trust it. That laid off feeling sometimes makes me
think I'll snap hook it. I find easier power with the flat wrist,
cupping is a power leak for me. My go-to shot under pressure seems to
be a fade, with the slight wrist cup. When I can relax and keep the
wrist flat, it's nice.
- cja
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 06:37:47
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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pete z wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > wonder how others do it.
>
>
> I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
No. Don't you think I would have mentioned that?
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 06:37:17
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
|
pete z wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > wonder how others do it.
>
>
> I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 03:27:17
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
|
David Laville wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 13:20:53 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >You cannot make your shoulder turn any further than when your
> >front shoulder contacts your chin. If you do you will knock your
> >head out of position and totally screw your chances for a consistent
> >swing.
>
> If your front shoulder hits your chin than I would suggest getting
> your chin off your chest.
My left shoulder hits my chin on every full golf swing. Just as it
does for Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan and Sam Snead and
many many others.
> >As the right elbow must remain tucked close to the chest,
>
> Tucked close to the chest? This pulls in the hands which bends the
> left arm.
Keeping the right elbow close to the chest does NOT bend
the left arm. It does ensure reliable and repeatable rotation
of the forearms, both going back and coming through.
> > neither
> >sliding left or right relative to the chest wall, the rotation of the
> >wrists
> >is controlled so that the back of the left hand is close to aligned
> >with the forearm and supination to go past parallel is difficult.
>
> Supination to go past parallel? Supination is to turn the hand palm
> up. Please tell me at what point in the back swing the left hand
> turns palm up and what does it have to do with going past parallel?
You are right, I meant pronation....
-PA
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Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:36:54
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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David Laville wrote:
> On 3 Sep 2006 07:37:05 -0700, "dsc" <Dudley.Cornman@eku.edu> wrote:
>
> >> I largely agree, but I think it is only if you use a poor definition
> >> of what the "full top" of the swing is that you come to the
> >> conclusion the left arm needs to be bent.
> >
> >My definition is shaft parallel to the ground and parallel to the
> >target line... so tell me what's poor about that? :)
>
> I don't take anything this guy says seriously and read what he writes
> for amusement. Remember, this is the guy who told us there is no such
> thing as a two plane swing and then a couple of days later was telling
> us about his cousin's two plane swing.
:)
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 22:00:28
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 1 Sep 2006 03:27:17 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>> Tucked close to the chest? This pulls in the hands which bends the
>> left arm.
>
>Keeping the right elbow close to the chest does NOT bend
>the left arm. It does ensure reliable and repeatable rotation
>of the forearms, both going back and coming through.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along? 1) You cannot keep the
right elbow close to your chest and not bend the left arm. Tell this
to someone who doesn't know any better. 2) Keeping your right elbow
close to your chest does not rotate the forearms, they are two
different planes of motion.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 19:05:13
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
I finally figured this out. You are left handed, right?
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 13:20:53
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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The_Professor wrote:
> How far you can go on your backswing will depend on your flexibility
> more than anything. Not to say there aren't some people with really
> good hand/eye coorrdination with really odd long swings!
>
You cannot make your shoulder turn any further than when your
front shoulder contacts your chin. If you do you will knock your
head out of position and totally screw your chances for a consistent
swing. This is why some great golfers
(Nicklaus, Hogan) turn their chin rearward just before the backswing,
it allows the shoulders to turn a few inches further before contact.
As the arms are below the line of the shoulders, the left arm cannot
go past the chest.
As the right elbow must remain tucked close to the chest, neither
sliding left or right relative to the chest wall, the rotation of the
wrists
is controlled so that the back of the left hand is close to aligned
with the forearm and supination to go past parallel is difficult. Also
note the left arm must remain straight.
With all these key golf fundamentals in place, parallel is about as far
as anyone can ever get.
However, if the right elbow goes flying, all bets are off.
-PA
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 01:55:56
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 31 Aug 2006 13:20:53 -0700, blakestah@gmail.com wrote:
>You cannot make your shoulder turn any further than when your
>front shoulder contacts your chin. If you do you will knock your
>head out of position and totally screw your chances for a consistent
>swing.
If your front shoulder hits your chin than I would suggest getting
your chin off your chest.
>As the right elbow must remain tucked close to the chest,
Tucked close to the chest? This pulls in the hands which bends the
left arm. The correct procedure is to keep your right elbow extended
away from your chest. This wants to extend your right arm which
pushes the left arm firm. It's the same principle as pulling on both
ends of a rope. Add to this it gives the triangle assembly structure
to deter it from collapsing.
> neither
>sliding left or right relative to the chest wall, the rotation of the
>wrists
>is controlled so that the back of the left hand is close to aligned
>with the forearm and supination to go past parallel is difficult.
Supination to go past parallel? Supination is to turn the hand palm
up. Please tell me at what point in the back swing the left hand
turns palm up and what does it have to do with going past parallel?
>Also note the left arm must remain straight.
How can you tell him in one breath the left arm must remain straight
and in another you're telling him to keep his right elbow close to his
chest which pulls in the hands bending the left arm?
>With all these key golf fundamentals in place, parallel is about as far
>as anyone can ever get.
Advocating a right elbow position that bends the left arm and telling
him to turn his left hand palm up in the backswing are key
fundamentals?
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 08:31:16
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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jeffc wrote:
> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156954453.351099.268030@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > perpendicular to the ground.
>
> I've been thinking for awhile, but truly have no idea at all what you mean.
Thanks for your contribution.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 07:50:55
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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fiveiron@webtv.net wrote:
> If the club shaft is horizontal at the top of the backswing, the club
> head's toe is pointing down, and toward the target, where your hands are
> is secondary, this makes it easy for you not to have to wrestle with
> hand orientation.
>
I don't think I could get my club shaft parallel to the ground at the
top of my backswing without severely bending my left elbow.
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Date: 01 Sep 2006 01:56:16
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 31 Aug 2006 07:50:55 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>I don't think I could get my club shaft parallel to the ground at the
>top of my backswing without severely bending my left elbow.
You don't have to get it to parallel. Taking your hands as high as
your right shoulder is good enough.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 11:36:30
From: Otto
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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Old age will do that.
It is possible to work on your flexibility and hip turn and shoulder turn,
but short of parallel is ok.
You are better off short of parallel than past parallel.
Keep the left arm straight(assuming you hit right handed).
Otto
"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157035854.962621.306830@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> I don't think I could get my club shaft parallel to the ground at the
> top of my backswing without severely bending my left elbow.
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Date: 31 Aug 2006 01:47:30
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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I'd say the most important thing there is if the club is
on some sort of connection to the target rather than if it's
parrallel or perpendicular. Take if from someone cursed with
a short swing, you're better off at least having the option
of getting to parrallel.
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, The_Professor wrote:
>
> John B. wrote:
>> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
>> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
>> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
>> wonder how others do it.
>
> I find that it is important to stay within the range allowed by your
> flexibility. I have very little flexibility, and will overswing badly
> if I don't really work on it, and I don't really work on it much, and
> thus I have trouble hitting solid shots.
>
> How far you can go on your backswing will depend on your flexibility
> more than anything. Not to say there aren't some people with really
> good hand/eye coorrdination with really odd long swings!
>
> I can only sleak for myself, but when I work on not swinging to the
> point where my weight shifts to the outside of my right foot (for a
> right hander) going back, and groove that length of backswing, I hit
> the ball slid...but not far!...almost every time. I have to really work
> on it to do it though. usually I will swing way too far back and as a
> result, hit a lot of bad shots.
>
>
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 18:44:19
From: pete z
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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fiveiron@webtv.net wrote:
> If the club shaft is horizontal at the top of the backswing, the club
> head's toe is pointing down, and toward the target, where your hands are
> is secondary, this makes it easy for you not to have to wrestle with
> hand orientation.
>
> >m h o
> > v =83e
>
> > u s o - until everyone comes home
You are a hoot fivee. Toe pointing down? Have you ever even seen anyone
play golf?
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 15:27:04
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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dsc wrote:
> curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
> > John B. wrote:
> > > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > > wonder how others do it.
> >
> > I don't care about my left. I am a right-hand dominant swinger, so I
> > pay attention to it.
>
> So what is it you try to do with your right hand?
I just align it to where my path might be on a one-planish swing. If I
am more two-planish I will try to have it more one the plane of glass
with the right hand (the inside of it) pointing toward the ball. Being
absorbed about the exactness isn't my goal though. Being square at
impact does, and having just a postion at the top doesn't insure a good
impact position. The point is, if one is aiming or aligning, why align
with a hand that one isn't dominant with?
CJ
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 22:27:01
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 30 Aug 2006 09:14:13 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
>ground at the top of the backswing,
Parallel to the ground? I wouldn't recommend this position.
> and I see others with the left hand
>perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
>wonder how others do it.
It all depends on your left hand grip. With a correct grip you'll
arrive at the top with your left hand in-line with your left forearm,
providing you didn't do any hand or wrist manipulations on your
backswing. With a stronger left hand grip you'll bend your left wrist
more getting your left hand perpendicular to the ground.
Be careful with this experimenting because it can be dangerous. If
you have a correct left hand grip but bend your left wrist at the top
getting your left hand perpendicular to the ground it's a double wrist
action. Going from bent at the top to flat for impact imitates a
reverse roll procedure and causes slicing.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 15:17:46
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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dsc wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > glfnaz wrote:
> > > Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
> >
> > Parallel to the ground in other words?
>
> No... on the plane (which is also parallel to it). The plane is
> tilted... not parallel to the ground.
I sorta missed the main point earlier...but it applies here too! Where
your hands are will depend on the length of your backswing and the
angle of the backswing; flatter vs more upright. I don't know if it is
really anything you have to worry about too much. Maybe make some vids
and see where the hands are on the shots you hit really solidly, and do
that!
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:06:22
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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If the club shaft is horizontal at the top of the backswing, the club
head's toe is pointing down, and toward the target, where your hands are
is secondary, this makes it easy for you not to have to wrestle with
hand orientation.
>m h o
>=A0v =83e
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0u s o - until everyone comes home
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 15:01:42
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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curtjester@webtv.net wrote:
> John B. wrote:
> > I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > wonder how others do it.
>
> I don't care about my left. I am a right-hand dominant swinger, so I
> pay attention to it.
So what is it you try to do with your right hand?
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 14:59:23
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> glfnaz wrote:
> > Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
>
> Parallel to the ground in other words?
No... on the plane (which is also parallel to it). The plane is
tilted... not parallel to the ground.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 14:56:55
From: dsc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
In the Model swing (SLaP) the hands should be over the right heel at
the top of the swing when viewed from above... and the club should be
parallel to the ground and parallel to the target line. That is the so
called ideal, yet many people vary from it including pros on all tours.
Obviously, some people are not flexible enough to achieve this
position. That's not bad news as you can stop at a legitimate 3/4
position and still hit the ball long and straight. A legitimate 3/4
position is almost always better than faking a full swing by severely
bending the left arm.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 14:35:56
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
I don't care about my left. I am a right-hand dominant swinger, so I
pay attention to it.
CJ
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 20:30:54
From: jeffc
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156954453.351099.268030@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground.
I've been thinking for awhile, but truly have no idea at all what you mean.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 20:08:06
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 30 Aug 2006 09:14:13 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
>ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
>perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
>wonder how others do it.
I need a camera (or someone's trained eye) to tell how I do it - it's
amazing how different I think my position is from what it really is.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:53:07
From: John B.
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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glfnaz wrote:
> Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
Parallel to the ground in other words?
>
> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156954453.351099.268030@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> > wonder how others do it.
> >
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 22:27:01
From: David Laville
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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On 30 Aug 2006 09:53:07 -0700, "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote:
>> Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
>
>Parallel to the ground in other words?
No, parallel to the plane. Imagine you're standing in one of those
wooden or Plexiglas swing planes. At the top your left hands should
be lying flat on the wood or Plexiglas. This gets your clubface on
plane so you can start the sweetspot down on plane.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 10:03:58
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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Only if your swing plane is parallel to the ground, which I hope it isn't.
The most effective plane for most is a line drawn from the ball to target
line up through the turned right shoulder. Have the back of the left hand
lying flat in that plane.
Call it a 45* angle.
If the back of the left hand is up / down at the top, you can play from
their but you'll need to eliminate the cup in the left wrist by impact. That
takes a compensation. If the back of the left hand is parellel to the
ground, you are laid off, and will probably come down -out / over the top.
The back of the left hand rotates from square to the plane at address, to
flat and 'in the plane' at the top. It's rotated by the arm rotating. It'll
rotate back to square to the plane at impact.
Don't try and rotate the hand / wrist alone on the way to the top. Rotate
the arm, almost like it is rotating from the shoulder socket. For most, this
part is natural and doesn't need to be dealt with.
"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156956787.747643.179400@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> glfnaz wrote:
>> Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
>
> Parallel to the ground in other words?
>
>>
>> "John B." <johnb505@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1156954453.351099.268030@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> >I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
>> > ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
>> > perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
>> > wonder how others do it.
>> >
>
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:27:52
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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Back of left hand should be laying flat to the plane at the top.
"John B." <johnb505@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156954453.351099.268030@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
>
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:27:41
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
I find that it is important to stay within the range allowed by your
flexibility. I have very little flexibility, and will overswing badly
if I don't really work on it, and I don't really work on it much, and
thus I have trouble hitting solid shots.
How far you can go on your backswing will depend on your flexibility
more than anything. Not to say there aren't some people with really
good hand/eye coorrdination with really odd long swings!
I can only speak for myself, but when I work on not swinging to the
point where my weight shifts to the outside of my right foot (for a
right hander) going back, and groove that length of backswing, I hit
the ball solid...but not far!...almost every time. I have to really
work on it to do it though. I usually just grab my clubs and head for
the course when some time comes free, and so I don't really work much
on trying to groove some perfect swing (for me). Usually I will swing
way too far back and as a result, hit a lot of bad shots.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:25:18
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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John B. wrote:
> I see some golfers, including pros, with their left hand parallel the
> ground at the top of the backswing, and I see others with the left hand
> perpendicular to the ground. I've been experimenting with this and
> wonder how others do it.
I find that it is important to stay within the range allowed by your
flexibility. I have very little flexibility, and will overswing badly
if I don't really work on it, and I don't really work on it much, and
thus I have trouble hitting solid shots.
How far you can go on your backswing will depend on your flexibility
more than anything. Not to say there aren't some people with really
good hand/eye coorrdination with really odd long swings!
I can only sleak for myself, but when I work on not swinging to the
point where my weight shifts to the outside of my right foot (for a
right hander) going back, and groove that length of backswing, I hit
the ball slid...but not far!...almost every time. I have to really work
on it to do it though. usually I will swing way too far back and as a
result, hit a lot of bad shots.
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Date: 30 Aug 2006 17:11:10
From:
Subject: Re: Hands at top of backswing
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>and thus I have trouble hitting solid shots.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
you probably have trouble hitting solid shots because you are too busy
"rubbernecking", keep the eyes on the ball until after impact, this will
help - in hitting solid shots.
>m h o
>=A0v =83e
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0u s o - until everyone comes home
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