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Date: 17 Sep 2006 16:21:23
From: KnighT
Subject: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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In The Golfing Machine, Homer refers to a feeling with the left arm and
club shaft which he describes as feeling exactly like pulling on both
ends of a rope. He says that using only left arm thrust will exhibit
this characteristic.
Can somebody please explain this to me (because I do not understand how
to do this) and your experience with this feeling ?
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 11:53:11
From: Dene
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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glfnaz wrote:
> "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1158599280.411027.167980@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
> > looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
> > refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
> > pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
> > wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
> > pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
When you say roll, would it be like what AJ describes?
> For swingers, he adds the left arm to shoulder angle as a 3rd power
> accumulator.
>
> As a pressure point, the contact of the rt index finger against the shaft is
> probably the most usefull in learning lag pressure on the downswing. To
> drill this, go to your address position. Take the rt thumb off the shaft and
> have it point to the target. Swing like that for a while and you'll gain a
> feel for PPt #3 and how it senses the clubhead.
That's a terrific drill. Really gives you feel. I've stayed away from
thinking about pp3 because I have a difficult time enough not letting
the right hand take over, thus pulling it, but this drill gives one the
proper feel.
Thanks!
-Greg
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 10:08:00
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching of the
right tricept keeps the left arm and club shaft straight. I think he
says that pulling on the left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on
both ends of a rope.
I will stick with this and continue to try and build a true swinging
motion.
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Date: 22 Sep 2006 19:49:50
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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Yes, drag loading is a critical beginning to this procedure.
I think I am beginning to understand this idea of the rope handle
technique. I have been working with, and thinking about it. I think
the main idea behind this procedure is to only use power accumulators
of left wrist cock, and wrist turn and roll....while supplying pressure
to these release these two power accumulators with ONLY my pressure
point #4, which is anywhere that my upper left arm touches my body.
This causes only the left arm to thrust the club, and it really feels
like a 'pull' from a point located in the middle of my pressure point
#2 (which is the last 3 fingers of my left hand). This pulling of the
clubhead from my upper left arm gives a very nice feeling of clubhead
lag that is new to me. Also, a constant monitoring of pressure point
#3 (right index ringer behind the club) helps assemble my power package
triangle at the top of my swing.
I love The Golfing Machine. This book continues to amaze me, the more
that I slowly begin to understand pieces of it.
>
> 10-19-A is the "Drive Loading" technique of the "hitter", and
> 10-19-C is the "Drag Loading" technique od the "swinger"
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:43:53
From: KnighT
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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Alan Illeman wrote:
> This is NOT clubhead lag, this is just the clubhead trailing behind
> the hands. TGM clubhead lag refers to the pressure you feel in
> pressure point #3 (righthand index finger) due to a stressed shaft,
> stressed by the change of direction of the clubshaft at startdown,
> and the feeling maintained through impact to the finish.
I was unaware of the difference. I thought any time that the clubhead
is trailing the hands was clubhead lag. I will think about that, and
keep paying attention to pressure point #3.
Here is another good article which is exactly the same subject that
this post has been discussing.
http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/articles.php?gs_id=4
This author: Paul Smith is a Golfing Machine GSEB. He has several
articles on this website, all with a good presentation of Golfing
Machine ideas. There is one really good picture of him at a 3/4
backswing with extensor action, and without extensor action. The
difference is very subtle, but probably feels much different.
OK, time for some quotes from my favorite book:
6-B-1-D. Extensor Action - "extensor action gives an indenspensible
control to all strokes. Stretching the left arm through the #3
pressure point gives the same action as pulling on both ends of a rope;
that is, it pulls both the left arm and clubshaft tautly in a straight
line".....(paraphrasing) if this causes clubhead throwaway then "use
only the #1 pressure point and pull on the left thumb to then hold at
least the left arm in-line and retain power package structural
rigidity."
2-K. Endless belt vs. the flail - "if thrust is applied only to the
left arm (handle of the flail), the clubshaft (swingle of the flail)
will perform more like a rope handle (rising clubhead pull), but if
prestressed by clubhead lag pressure point pressure, more like an axe
handle (steady clubhead inertia)."
The rope handle is for swinging....while the axe handle is for hitting
I would really love it if David Laville contributed to this post. His
input would be priceless.
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Date: 19 Sep 2006 08:10:42
From: Alan Illeman
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1158619433.061486.11590@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Alan Illeman wrote:
>
> > This is NOT clubhead lag, this is just the clubhead trailing behind
> > the hands. TGM clubhead lag refers to the pressure you feel in
> > pressure point #3 (righthand index finger) due to a stressed shaft,
> > stressed by the change of direction of the clubshaft at startdown,
> > and the feeling maintained through impact to the finish.
>
> I was unaware of the difference. I thought any time that the clubhead
> is trailing the hands was clubhead lag. I will think about that, and
> keep paying attention to pressure point #3.
6-C-2-A (2nd paragraph - 6th Edition)
"The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting
a change in its direction or velocity - which is Acceleration.
Acceleration bends the Clubshaft during Radial Acceleration
(10-19-A). Change of direction bends it during Longitudinal
Acceleration (10-19-C) which may be, or just include, the
Clubhead Lag Pressure Point in addition to its main function of
Acceleration Control. From Putter to Driver, the Clubhead Lag
technique is indispensable."
10-19-A is the "Drive Loading" technique of the "hitter", and
10-19-C is the "Drag Loading" technique od the "swinger"
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 14:27:26
From:
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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>Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through
>TGM and looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle
>Technique.' When refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones
>a combination of pressure points and power accumulators. I think
>he says to use the wrist cock power and wrist
>turn and roll for accumulators while using pressure points from
>the left arm/body and the right arm.
>He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching
>of the right tricept keeps the left arm and club
>shaft straight. I think he says that pulling on the
>left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on both
>ends of a rope.
>I will stick with this and continue to try and
>build a true swinging motion.
=3D=3D=3D=3D
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-instruction/chuck-evans-golf-tips-learn-lag-=
2571.htm
>m h o
> v =83e
>=A0=A0=A0=A0* d r i v e =A0l e s s -=A0c r e a t e =A0a =A0g l u t *
> d w n =A0w / t h e =A0$ c a l p e r - u $ e =A0l e $ $ =A0g a $
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 15:38:44
From: Buford Ressup
Subject: Re: Wie - the new Kournikova
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 11:46:13 -0700, Big_Fan wrote:
>
>> > Like I said, head-to-head she's played as well as anyone, not losing any
>> > more than she has won and usually doing better. What part of that do you
>> > not understand?
>>
>> But you didn't stop there. You said a case could be made for Wie being
>> the #2 player over the last two years.
>
> And I stand by that statement, considering Wie finished in the top 5 in
> six of her seven tournaments this year and was equal to or better
> head-to-head against every player on the LPGA tour.
>
>> > I never said that she was the best player in the world.
>> > I was disagreeing with someone who didn't say she was a top ten player
>> > when she's obviously fighting for the #2 spot behind Annika.
>> >
>> > And why do you have to exaggerate your weak points by saying "help them
>> > past their emotional pain"?
>>
>> First, it's called hyperbole (look it up),
>
> In this case, it was just an idiotic statement.
>
>> and second, I don't see any
>> weakness in any points I'm making.
>
> Of course you don't.
>
>> >> Oh wait, according to the ranking you're quoting, Annika is ginally
>> >> better than Michelle. I guess it must have been the 12 victories, 3 of
>> >> them majors, that helped her eke out a slightly better rating, eh?
>> >
>> > Actually Wie's rating is higher than Annika's
>> LOL. That statement alone should set off all sorts of alarms in your head.
>
> Not really. What part of six out of seven finishes in the top five,
> including three out of four majors do you not understand?
How much do you understand about statistics? Do you consider seven
specially selected data points to be a good comparison to 20 semi-randomly
selected ones?
>>
>> > due the fact that (a) it's
>> > only for the last year and Annika's won 3 times this year versus 10
>> > times last year, (b) it's strength of field and (c) it only uses your
>> > score, so no bonus points for winning. Because of (c) it can't be used
>> > to determine the best player in the world.
>>
>> But that's exactly what people use it for, isn't it?
>
> I don't know. Do you have an example of where people used it as such?
This thread. Your messages. You're using it precisely that way, just as
everybody else does.
>> > You could finish #3 all year
>> > and be ranked #1, but it IS a good system for determining how
>> > consistently well a player is doing.
>>
>> Actually, it's not.
>
> Actually, it is an excellent system for doing so. Much better than any
> other you can name.
>
>> I understand the system, and I'm pretty sure I'm beginning to
>> understand why it fails when applied to golfers. The system evolved as
>> a way to rate a large number of competitors when every competition
>> consists of one entity (person or team) playing against another entity
>> in a season in which the overwhelming majority of possible pairings
>> never take place.
>>
>> As for debating it, I'm not really interested. I will, though, give
>> you an idea to mull over that may or may not lead you to the same
>> conclusions I've reached about it.
>>
>> There is a difference between how a golfer plays when he's "fighting"
>> for 40th place versus when he's in contention, or even trying for a top
>> 5 finish. The difference in money, prestige, and self-confidence
>> between 40th place and 50th place is virtually zero, but the difference
>> between 3rd and 13th is huge.
>>
>> Now, go and think about that for a while, and come back when you
>> understand the implications it has in the ranking system.
>
> Apparently you don't understand the system if you think that involves
> places, which you obviously believe by comparing 40th vs 50th and 3rd vs
> 13th.
When you're in 40th place, your score is, by definition, higher than when
you're in 5th place.
> The ratings are based on your stroke averages, not places.
It's not score people fight for, it's place. Tiger Woods is probably the
only player in the world who will still fight with everything he's got for
birdies on the last few holes when he's sitting on a 12-stroke lead.
Every other player on the planet would simply cruise to a win.
Aside from Tiger, no one else cares about score except as it relates to
what place they're in. And if they're in 40th place, they're not going to
fight as hard for another stroke to get in a tie for 30th as they would if
they were in 13th fighting for a tie for 3rd.
Is that any clearer for you?
> You
> need to look at your own statements and realize that the system does
> exactly what I says it does, measures consistency.
You don't seem to have any comprehension of what I'm saying.
> Whether you think the
> difference between 10 shots when you're at the top of the leaderboard or
> at the bottom is personal opinion, but has nothing to do with the
> definition of consistent play.
>
> Btw, in the six tournaments this year that Wie and Sorenstam have played
> in together, Wie finished ahead of Sorenstam in four (3 vs 6, 5 vs 9, 2
> vs 8, 26 vs 31), they tied one and Sorenstam finished ahead in one (her
> win vs Wie's third). While I'm sure that Wie would take Annika's record
> considering she won the US Open, I don't think anyone can complain about
> a system that has Wie ahead on rating.
I give up.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 18:04:29
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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KnighT wrote:
> Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
> looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
> refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
> pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
> wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
> pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
>
> He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching of the
> right tricept keeps the left arm and club shaft straight. I think he
> says that pulling on the left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on
> both ends of a rope.
>
> I will stick with this and continue to try and build a true swinging
> motion.
>
I'm a little confused here ... I assumed you were talking about the
downswing when you mentioned "rope handle". But I don't see how the
original quote of "pulling on both ends of a rope" and now "pulling on
the left thumb" apply to the downswing. Are you discussing the backswing
instead?
Excuse my TGM ingnorance ... haven't read the book but have seen enough
refences here in RSG to pick up the common terminology. Thanks.
Rob
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 11:11:19
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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"Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:NcBPg.3876$4C1.2554@trnddc03...
> KnighT wrote:
>> Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
>> looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
>> refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
>> pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
>> wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
>> pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
>>
>> He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching of the
>> right tricept keeps the left arm and club shaft straight. I think he
>> says that pulling on the left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on
>> both ends of a rope.
>>
>> I will stick with this and continue to try and build a true swinging
>> motion.
>>
>
> I'm a little confused here ... I assumed you were talking about the
> downswing when you mentioned "rope handle". But I don't see how the
> original quote of "pulling on both ends of a rope" and now "pulling on the
> left thumb" apply to the downswing. Are you discussing the backswing
> instead?
>
> Excuse my TGM ingnorance ... haven't read the book but have seen enough
> refences here in RSG to pick up the common terminology. Thanks.
>
> Rob
Rob, TGM teaches the importance of structure in the machine. In 6 b 1 d it
says that extensor action of the rt arm is the solution. It says that
although the rt arm folds, it should always be trying to be straight.
Passive rt arm extension. It can be used on both the take-up and downswing.
The rt hand pulling on the left thumb is a good visual.
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 19:52:00
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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glfnaz wrote:
> "Rob Davis" <davis.rob@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:NcBPg.3876$4C1.2554@trnddc03...
>
>>KnighT wrote:
>>
>>>Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
>>>looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
>>>refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
>>>pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
>>>wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
>>>pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
>>>
>>>He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching of the
>>>right tricept keeps the left arm and club shaft straight. I think he
>>>says that pulling on the left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on
>>>both ends of a rope.
>>>
>>>I will stick with this and continue to try and build a true swinging
>>>motion.
>>>
>>
>>I'm a little confused here ... I assumed you were talking about the
>>downswing when you mentioned "rope handle". But I don't see how the
>>original quote of "pulling on both ends of a rope" and now "pulling on the
>>left thumb" apply to the downswing. Are you discussing the backswing
>>instead?
>>
>>Excuse my TGM ingnorance ... haven't read the book but have seen enough
>>refences here in RSG to pick up the common terminology. Thanks.
>>
>>Rob
>
>
> Rob, TGM teaches the importance of structure in the machine. In 6 b 1 d it
> says that extensor action of the rt arm is the solution. It says that
> although the rt arm folds, it should always be trying to be straight.
> Passive rt arm extension. It can be used on both the take-up and downswing.
> The rt hand pulling on the left thumb is a good visual.
>
>
Hmmm ... it's tough to imagine "pulling" on the left thumb during the
downswing. Extension of the right arm, OK ... but that would have to be
"pushing" on the down swing to me (a common swing thought I've heard ...
having the base of the right hand push on the left thumb). Maybe I just
need to read the book ... but thanks for trying to explain.
Rob
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 10:29:08
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1158599280.411027.167980@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Since I first posted yesterday I have been going through TGM and
> looking for any reference to this 'Rope Handle Technique.' When
> refering to the classic golf 'swing' he mentiones a combination of
> pressure points and power accumulators. I think he says to use the
> wrist cock power and wrist turn and roll for accumulators while using
> pressure points from the left arm/body and the right arm.
For swingers, he adds the left arm to shoulder angle as a 3rd power
accumulator.
As a pressure point, the contact of the rt index finger against the shaft is
probably the most usefull in learning lag pressure on the downswing. To
drill this, go to your address position. Take the rt thumb off the shaft and
have it point to the target. Swing like that for a while and you'll gain a
feel for PPt #3 and how it senses the clubhead.
>
> He also talks alot about extensor action. And the stretching of the
> right tricept keeps the left arm and club shaft straight. I think he
> says that pulling on the left thumb gives the exact feel as pulling on
> both ends of a rope.
6 B 1 D
>
> I will stick with this and continue to try and build a true swinging
> motion.
>
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Date: 17 Sep 2006 21:42:31
From: gpsman
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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S McFarlane wrote: <brevity snip >
> In reality, the shoulder turn
> must begin very soon after the left arm begins it's decent.
Like so soon as to begin first.
Perhaps you mis-spoke.
-----
- gpsman
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 06:44:25
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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"gpsman" <gpsman@driversmail.com > wrote in message
news:1158554551.677741.232850@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>S McFarlane wrote: <brevity snip>
>
>> In reality, the shoulder turn
>> must begin very soon after the left arm begins it's decent.
>
> Like so soon as to begin first.
>
> Perhaps you mis-spoke.
Maybe out of ignorance, but it was what I meant. There's lot's of bad info
on the golf swing out there, and maybe this is just another example. But
from what I've read, a classic cause of outside-in swing paths is a
premature shoulder turn from the top. That's definitely what the rope-pull
swing thought is all about. I'm no pro, and having read that has done me no
good at all (persistent pull with the irons, slice tendency with the woods;
common denominator is an outside in clubhead path). If it's bogus, it ain't
my idea.
On the other hand, the idea that leading from the upper body can force the
arms outside the target line coming down makes a good deal of sense. But
wadda I know...
Scott
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 04:22:59
From: S McFarlane
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
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"KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1158535283.225251.74780@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> In The Golfing Machine, Homer refers to a feeling with the left arm and
> club shaft which he describes as feeling exactly like pulling on both
> ends of a rope. He says that using only left arm thrust will exhibit
> this characteristic.
>
> Can somebody please explain this to me (because I do not understand how
> to do this) and your experience with this feeling ?
I've heard this before. A friend was told this by his grandfather as a kid,
except in this case it was "ringing the bell" (pulling down on a rope used
to ring a bell). You were supposed to 'ring the bell' at the very top of
your backswing. The basic idea is to get the left arm moving with the hips
before the shoulder begins to rotate back towards the front.
Another swing thought designed to accomplish the same thing is to keep your
back facing the target as long as possible. In reality, the shoulder turn
must begin very soon after the left arm begins it's decent. The swing
thought is designed to keep the correct order: Left arm descent first,
forward shoulder rotation following. Many people who have slice/pull
problems are getting jammed up in this part of the swing, including myself.
As the story goes, a downswing initiated with the shoulders will force the
club outside, and this will always lead to either a slice or pull. Which
one depends on what happens with the clubface angle: clubface closed to
target line = pull - pulled hook; clubface square-open to target line = fade
/ slice.
Scott
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Date: 18 Sep 2006 16:09:39
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Golf Swing: Rope Handle ?
|
S McFarlane wrote:
> "KnighT" <bryanjunk777@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1158535283.225251.74780@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>In The Golfing Machine, Homer refers to a feeling with the left arm and
>>club shaft which he describes as feeling exactly like pulling on both
>>ends of a rope. He says that using only left arm thrust will exhibit
>>this characteristic.
>>
>>Can somebody please explain this to me (because I do not understand how
>>to do this) and your experience with this feeling ?
>
>
> I've heard this before. A friend was told this by his grandfather as a kid,
> except in this case it was "ringing the bell" (pulling down on a rope used
> to ring a bell). You were supposed to 'ring the bell' at the very top of
> your backswing. The basic idea is to get the left arm moving with the hips
> before the shoulder begins to rotate back towards the front.
>
> Another swing thought designed to accomplish the same thing is to keep your
> back facing the target as long as possible.
Funny ... I was just working on a similar thought yesterday at the range
that seemed to work for me. It was simply trying to "keep the hands
ahead of the club" on the downswing ... keep the grip moving faster than
the clubhead ... don't let the clubhead get ahead of your hands until
near impact.
I've tried several similar thoughts with limited success ... the "pull
down" you mention, "maintain the lag", "drop your right arm back to your
side". But this simple version seemed to be more effective ... at least
yesterday 8^). Never ceases to amaze me how golfers respond *so*
differently to similar swing thoughts with just a slight twist or
different emphasis.
Rob
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