GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

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Date: 31 Dec 2006 19:36:52
From: Dave Lee
Subject: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device over
the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.

1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the SkyCaddie.

It is worth noting that SkyCaddie has a more sophisticated display system,
but I was mostly interested in pure distances.

The only laser device that I had ever spent a decent amount of time with was
an older Nikon model. I found it quite difficult to use from more than 150
yards and this was a significant factor in choosing GPS over laser
technologies (Bushnell Pinseeker technology may improve this - don't know).
However laser has a very significant advantage over GPS in that very
critical under 100 yards range (where actual distance to the pin rather than
Front/Center/Rear) becomes important at my skill level. But I chose GPS
anyway.

I posted a review of this device back on 9/16/06 - GPS Type "Rangerfinder"
Review (iGolf). In that review I was generally pleased with the device, but
stated that accuracy was "OK, but just barely". I had hoped/assumed that as
I gained experience with the device that I would gain a better understanding
of how it works and get better results. The real answer is the more I use it
the less I trust it.

I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy, but I do
have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then repeat and
hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was really iffy.
I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would get numbers
that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it seemed that,
given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15 seconds or
some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you don't always
have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get this same
(or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.

So I started paying close attention to the device at the range (where I had
recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the device unmoved
for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as in a
couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down every 5
swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like 104, 104,
102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a sudden I
see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15 seconds later
it is back around 103.

I've mucked around with "Stabilization On/Off" and "WAAS On/Off". But this
occasional 'way off the map' number seems to be the way it is. The result
(for me) is that every time I use the device I wonder "will I see this same
number 30 seconds from now?". I was getting pretty frustrated and really
wondering if it was worth bothering with.

So the other day I was walking toward the range and thinking that surely the
manufacturer shipped this device with the settings most likely to work
optimally. I had no idea what those were so I went into settings and
selected 'reset to defaults'. The settings are Stabilization, WAAS, Screen
Settings, Battery Types, and Power Optimization. I got a message about loss
of data and for a fleeting moment thought "surely these guys don't wipe out
all your golf course data - I'm just doing settings".

So I went ahead and said 'Yes'. Low and behold, they wiped out every course
that I had mapped - probably 200 to 250 custom points. There is a pretty
easy way to back up you data to your PC and I had done this a while back,
but probably only half of the custom points were backed up (my error, but an
INCREDIBLY STUPID design).

Because of another design error making mapping points while you are playing
and trying to use the device awkward, it is a bunch of work to remap the
points that I had not backed up. And the honest truth is that this thing is
simply not worth that much effort.

I am a practice hound, practice at four different locations, and find having
each of these places mapped to be very convenient and this also mostly
avoids the inconsistent readings problem. So I'll probably keep it and use
it for practice.

But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I would
assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.

I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.

dave

Date: 11 Feb 2007 00:22:44
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Date: 28 Jan 2007 00:09:26
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device over
> the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>
> 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the SkyCaddie.
>
> It is worth noting that SkyCaddie has a more sophisticated display system,
> but I was mostly interested in pure distances.
>
> The only laser device that I had ever spent a decent amount of time with
was
> an older Nikon model. I found it quite difficult to use from more than 150
> yards and this was a significant factor in choosing GPS over laser
> technologies (Bushnell Pinseeker technology may improve this - don't
know).
> However laser has a very significant advantage over GPS in that very
> critical under 100 yards range (where actual distance to the pin rather
than
> Front/Center/Rear) becomes important at my skill level. But I chose GPS
> anyway.
>
> I posted a review of this device back on 9/16/06 - GPS Type "Rangerfinder"
> Review (iGolf). In that review I was generally pleased with the device,
but
> stated that accuracy was "OK, but just barely". I had hoped/assumed that
as
> I gained experience with the device that I would gain a better
understanding
> of how it works and get better results. The real answer is the more I use
it
> the less I trust it.
>
> I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy, but I do
> have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then repeat
and
> hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was really
iffy.
> I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would get
numbers
> that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it seemed that,
> given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15 seconds or
> some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you don't
always
> have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get this
same
> (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
>
> So I started paying close attention to the device at the range (where I
had
> recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the device
unmoved
> for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as in a
> couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down every 5
> swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like 104, 104,
> 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a sudden I
> see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15 seconds
later
> it is back around 103.
>
> I've mucked around with "Stabilization On/Off" and "WAAS On/Off". But this
> occasional 'way off the map' number seems to be the way it is. The result
> (for me) is that every time I use the device I wonder "will I see this
same
> number 30 seconds from now?". I was getting pretty frustrated and really
> wondering if it was worth bothering with.
>
> So the other day I was walking toward the range and thinking that surely
the
> manufacturer shipped this device with the settings most likely to work
> optimally. I had no idea what those were so I went into settings and
> selected 'reset to defaults'. The settings are Stabilization, WAAS, Screen
> Settings, Battery Types, and Power Optimization. I got a message about
loss
> of data and for a fleeting moment thought "surely these guys don't wipe
out
> all your golf course data - I'm just doing settings".
>
> So I went ahead and said 'Yes'. Low and behold, they wiped out every
course
> that I had mapped - probably 200 to 250 custom points. There is a pretty
> easy way to back up you data to your PC and I had done this a while back,
> but probably only half of the custom points were backed up (my error, but
an
> INCREDIBLY STUPID design).
>
> Because of another design error making mapping points while you are
playing
> and trying to use the device awkward, it is a bunch of work to remap the
> points that I had not backed up. And the honest truth is that this thing
is
> simply not worth that much effort.
>
> I am a practice hound, practice at four different locations, and find
having
> each of these places mapped to be very convenient and this also mostly
> avoids the inconsistent readings problem. So I'll probably keep it and use
> it for practice.
>
> But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I
would
> assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.
>
> I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.
>
> dave
>

Today I had something of a "Eureka Event" relative to my understanding of
this device and how to use it "properly". I've just been kind of messing
around with it. I started to do a repeat of the experiment that I described
elsewhere in this thread (dated 1/18/07). But I pretty quickly got to where
two "identical points" were obviously mapped 9 yards apart. "OK - that's
enough of this crap for me" I thought. But I did continue to carry it around
when practicing and just "watched it".

There is absolutely no doubt that on occasion this thing will suddenly go
from a stable reading of (for example) 135 yards to a stable reading of 145
yards even thought it is sitting absolutely still in the hitting area of a
wide open driving range. But this really is pretty rare - more rare than my
experimental data would indicate (and more rare than my memories of using it
on the course).

When you first turn the iGolf device on (and SkyCaddie, I assume) it goes
into a "warm-up mode". What is happening here is that it is downloading
orbital data (different than the time/position data directly used in
distance calculations). You wait a couple of minutes and it springs to life.

What I had not paid attention to is that when the device turns on it really
isn't done acquiring orbital information - you might well have only 3 or 4
useable satellite signals where a couple of minutes later you'll have 6-8.
Note that when you turn the device off and then back on for a short period
of time the device (in most cases) comes back quite quickly using the
previously acquired orbital data.

Additionally it is possible to completely lose the satellite signal. In
particular this can happen when the device is in your pocket and you are
sitting inside a golf cart (with the device in the pocket on the inside of
the cart). It comes back almost instantly when stepping out, however
........

This evening I did a quick experiment. I was in the back yard grilling some
stuff and sat the device on the picnic table and I watched a prefiously
mapped point. So I put my hands over the top end of the device and "hid" in
an inside corner of the house for 30 seconds (little to no satellite data
available during this period of time). I would then return the device to the
original location. The device often recovered with readings 3-5 yards
different than before. And on occasion it would be 10-12 yards different and
it might take a full minute for this error to go away.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that many/most/all(?)
unstable/erroneous readings that I got on the course happened when I allowed
the device to lose it's signal for a period of time and then used it.

When I did my experiments I always allowed the device to exit its warm-up
mode, but I was not careful in being sure that it had fully acquired all the
satellite data that was available. Additionally I would sometimes turn it on
and put it on our rear deck table to "warm up" for 3 (or 15 minutes or ...).
Then I would walk through the house (signal lost for a period of time),
going out the garage door to my experimental mapping points. I'm surmising
that this is the reason for at least some of my poor experimental results.

I'm still undecided about whether this will change my earlier decision to
abandon the device on the course. But I do believe that I could get better
results than I experienced earlier.

dave

Date: 18 Jan 2007 15:42:17
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device over
> the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>
> 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the SkyCaddie.
>
> It is worth noting that SkyCaddie has a more sophisticated display system,
> but I was mostly interested in pure distances.
>
> The only laser device that I had ever spent a decent amount of time with
was
> an older Nikon model. I found it quite difficult to use from more than 150
> yards and this was a significant factor in choosing GPS over laser
> technologies (Bushnell Pinseeker technology may improve this - don't
know).
> However laser has a very significant advantage over GPS in that very
> critical under 100 yards range (where actual distance to the pin rather
than
> Front/Center/Rear) becomes important at my skill level. But I chose GPS
> anyway.
>
> I posted a review of this device back on 9/16/06 - GPS Type "Rangerfinder"
> Review (iGolf). In that review I was generally pleased with the device,
but
> stated that accuracy was "OK, but just barely". I had hoped/assumed that
as
> I gained experience with the device that I would gain a better
understanding
> of how it works and get better results. The real answer is the more I use
it
> the less I trust it.
>
> I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy, but I do
> have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then repeat
and
> hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was really
iffy.
> I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would get
numbers
> that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it seemed that,
> given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15 seconds or
> some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you don't
always
> have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get this
same
> (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
>
> So I started paying close attention to the device at the range (where I
had
> recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the device
unmoved
> for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as in a
> couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down every 5
> swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like 104, 104,
> 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a sudden I
> see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15 seconds
later
> it is back around 103.
>
> I've mucked around with "Stabilization On/Off" and "WAAS On/Off". But this
> occasional 'way off the map' number seems to be the way it is. The result
> (for me) is that every time I use the device I wonder "will I see this
same
> number 30 seconds from now?". I was getting pretty frustrated and really
> wondering if it was worth bothering with.
>
> So the other day I was walking toward the range and thinking that surely
the
> manufacturer shipped this device with the settings most likely to work
> optimally. I had no idea what those were so I went into settings and
> selected 'reset to defaults'. The settings are Stabilization, WAAS, Screen
> Settings, Battery Types, and Power Optimization. I got a message about
loss
> of data and for a fleeting moment thought "surely these guys don't wipe
out
> all your golf course data - I'm just doing settings".
>
> So I went ahead and said 'Yes'. Low and behold, they wiped out every
course
> that I had mapped - probably 200 to 250 custom points. There is a pretty
> easy way to back up you data to your PC and I had done this a while back,
> but probably only half of the custom points were backed up (my error, but
an
> INCREDIBLY STUPID design).
>
> Because of another design error making mapping points while you are
playing
> and trying to use the device awkward, it is a bunch of work to remap the
> points that I had not backed up. And the honest truth is that this thing
is
> simply not worth that much effort.
>
> I am a practice hound, practice at four different locations, and find
having
> each of these places mapped to be very convenient and this also mostly
> avoids the inconsistent readings problem. So I'll probably keep it and use
> it for practice.
>
> But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I
would
> assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.
>
> I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.
>
> dave
>

Just for completeness I ran an informal experiment recently. I went to a
specific point in my front yard and mapped it on five different occasions. I
did the same thing with a point down the street maybe 150 yards. Both have
good sky visibility.

Then I measured the distance between these points (sometimes from one and
sometimes from the other) a number of times. Here are the results (which
certainly didn't change my mind about the lack of utility of GPS on the
course). Note that in a 100% accurate world all the measurements would be
the same.

WAAS OFF
Distance Count
136 1
137 1
139 3
140 3
141 1
142 5
143 3
144 14
145 11
146 13
147 7
148 14
149 6
150 1
151 3
152 2
153 1
155 1

WAAS ON
Distance Count
139 2
140 3
141 1
142 6
143 5
144 8
145 6
146 18
147 10
148 4
149 5
150 2
151 9
152 3
154 1

This was intended to match my intended use of the device (a lot of custom
points mapped by me). For the case of a course mapped with (possibly) more
acccurate technology, things might be better. I would guess that maybe 30%
better would be achieveable.

dave

Date: 02 Jan 2007 15:45:18
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Gordo wrote:

> Robert Hamilton wrote:
> > Bert Robbins wrote:
> >
> > > Dave Lee wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > > > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
> > > > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> > > > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
> > > > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> > > > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
> > > > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
> > >
> > > You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> > > consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
> > > are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
> > > that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
> > > Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
> > > position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
> > > land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
> > > to four hundred dollars.
> > >
> > > Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.
> >
> > I have used these things for a while for teaching and research. They have come a
> > long way, and even the cheap units can be as accurate as possible (1M). The
> > issue in the better units seems to be how fast they give you a stable reading.
> > As I am sure you know, things like atmospheric disturbances and number of
> > satellites will affect accuracy, and you really can't do anything about that.
> > You cannot guarantee that you will have 6 satellites and a 100% "transparent"
> > atmosphere for your big game.
> >
> > There have to be some compromises with Sky Caddies, because 400 bucks isn't
> > going to get you anywhere near "the best". I prefer a unit that won't give you a
> > reading till it's stable, and that takes up to 5 minutes with the moderately
> > priced units I use most often (don't have to have too many expensive units
> > stolen or lost before you realize that waiting 5 minutes is no big deal when you
> > are out in the field!). I suspect most golfers don't want to wait up till 5
> > minutes so Sky Caddies will give you *A* reading almost immediately.
>
> I've been doing my annual "I need a GPS/Rangefinder" sond and dance.
> Last Saturday, I played at a course that I'm not to familiar with and
> played with a guy who had the SG2. Whenever we were able to, he'd come
> over and 'help' me with the yardages. I've always relied on my eye and
> sense of distance to tell me how far I was from my objective, and on
> this day, my eye was way more than good enough. Now, mind you, I only
> play to about a 9.1 at the moment, but do find that I don't need to be
> more anal about the game to enjoy it and to score. But, that's just
> me. Enjoy the New Year Rob.

Happy New Year to you!

Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:01:26
From: Gordo
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Robert Hamilton wrote:
> Bert Robbins wrote:
>
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
> > > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> > > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
> > > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> > > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
> > > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
> >
> > You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> > consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
> > are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
> > that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
> > Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
> > position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
> > land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
> > to four hundred dollars.
> >
> > Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.
>
> I have used these things for a while for teaching and research. They have come a
> long way, and even the cheap units can be as accurate as possible (1M). The
> issue in the better units seems to be how fast they give you a stable reading.
> As I am sure you know, things like atmospheric disturbances and number of
> satellites will affect accuracy, and you really can't do anything about that.
> You cannot guarantee that you will have 6 satellites and a 100% "transparent"
> atmosphere for your big game.
>
> There have to be some compromises with Sky Caddies, because 400 bucks isn't
> going to get you anywhere near "the best". I prefer a unit that won't give you a
> reading till it's stable, and that takes up to 5 minutes with the moderately
> priced units I use most often (don't have to have too many expensive units
> stolen or lost before you realize that waiting 5 minutes is no big deal when you
> are out in the field!). I suspect most golfers don't want to wait up till 5
> minutes so Sky Caddies will give you *A* reading almost immediately.

I've been doing my annual "I need a GPS/Rangefinder" sond and dance.
Last Saturday, I played at a course that I'm not to familiar with and
played with a guy who had the SG2. Whenever we were able to, he'd come
over and 'help' me with the yardages. I've always relied on my eye and
sense of distance to tell me how far I was from my objective, and on
this day, my eye was way more than good enough. Now, mind you, I only
play to about a 9.1 at the moment, but do find that I don't need to be
more anal about the game to enjoy it and to score. But, that's just
me. Enjoy the New Year Rob.

Date: 01 Jan 2007 03:06:11
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Date: 01 Jan 2007 13:13:59
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Re: Attached

Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen to know the
timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved (and when
they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you had more
specific information (even if it is a little loose).

Thanks.

dave

"GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca > wrote in message
news:Rn3mh.980$Wx4.132587@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this
> >device over
> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
> >
> > 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> > 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the
> > SkyCaddie.
> >
> <snipped>
> >
> > I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy,
> > but I do
> > have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then
> > repeat and
> > hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was
> > really iffy.
> > I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would
> > get numbers
> > that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it
> > seemed that,
> > given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15
> > seconds or
> > some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you
> > don't always
> > have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get
> > this same
> > (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
> >
> > So I started paying close attention to the device at the range
> > (where I had
> > recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the
> > device unmoved
> > for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as
> > in a
> > couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down
> > every 5
> > swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like
> > 104, 104,
> > 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a
> > sudden I
> > see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15
> > seconds later
> > it is back around 103.
> >
> <snipped>
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
> Consumer quality GPS devices like the iGolf and SkyCaddie are
> accurate to +/- 3-5 yards. We ordered a dozen SkyCaddie last summer
> with the intention of having some for sale and some for rental.
> SkyCaddie "maps" the course using expensive survey quality equipment
> creating the "4 star professional" level course map. After our
> course had been mapped I took 6 units and walked the front nine with
> the Bushnell's to get a feel for the difference between the
> SkyCaddie and the rangefinder. I noticed that at times there was
> quite a variance between the 6 SkyCaddie units (up to 30 yards) but
> in general they were accurate to +/- 3 yards. The Bushnell is +/- 1
> yard. The intelligreen feature of the 4 star mapping, where you see
> the front of green, and back of green, carry from any angle of
> approach is amazing and worth the price of the unit.
>
> We sold a few units and then started having complaints about
> occasional large discrepancies. I repeated my front nine test with
> three units recording all the measurements I took and reported the
> results to the SkyCaddie people. It turned out that there had been a
> change to a new satellite last spring and that the accuracy problem
> was affecting the entire east coast of North America. The SkyCaddie
> support line was receiving 100's of calls each day. I heard also
> that a pro tour in the northeast that uses the SkyCaddie had to
> cancel some dates. The satellite issues, which were entirely
> beyond the control of SkyCaddie, have now apparently been resolved
> but the damage has been done for us since the units sat in the back
> room for the rest of the season. We'll try again in the spring. I
> would imagine that iGolf might be using the same satellite.
>
> I used the SkyCaddie about 15 times at our course and several others
> in the area and I think it's a great device, especially from the
> rough. You do have to stop and wait between 20-30 seconds before
> taking a reading to give it time to settle which takes a bit of
> getting used to but usually doesn't impact speed of play. I have
> been using a Bushnell in practice rounds for several years and I
> think the SkyCaddie has many advantages over the range finder.
> Unfortunately it couldn't be trusted 100% so I'm not ready to
> recommend it for other than practice rounds at this time but it has
> great potential.
>
> Gary
>
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 14:00:56
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:rO7mh.5229$pQ3.4345@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Re: Attached
>
> Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen
> to know the
> timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved
> (and when
> they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you
> had more
> specific information (even if it is a little loose).
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>

Sorry I can't be more specific about the dates. We received our
units in late May, early June, and the problem appeared to us
immediately. I went through some software upgrades for a few weeks
which didn't change anything then when I pressed them they told me
about the satellite. I was a bit sceptical at first but the
extensive troubleshooting we did, which included swapping three
units for known accurate "west coast" units, certainly seemd to
point to a satellite issue. I see no reason for them to have lied to
me about it. And I did check with some other courses and they were
having the same problem.

As far as resolution is concerned, we closed for the season end of
October. I played a few rounds up to Nov. 30 with mixed results but
I haven't followed up with SkyCaddie since then. Everything was
supposed to be stabilized before year end. I will check with them
this week and let you know.

Gary

Date: 01 Jan 2007 08:55:37
From: sfb
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

I'd take the satellites story with a really big grain of salt as GPS is use
is so pervasive in out lives - land surveying, vehicle navigation, private
and commercial aviation to say nothing of the US military - that any failure
of GPS would be front page news.

I've been using an SG2 three or four rounds a week since July and it has
been reliable. The biggest problem is how well courses are mapped. It even
works inside the golf bag. By its own admission it take a few minutes to
stabilize when first turned on. Often, I turn it on and leave it inside the
bag before heading to the course. When I get there, it is up and running.

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:rO7mh.5229$pQ3.4345@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Re: Attached
>
> Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen to know
> the
> timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved (and when
> they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you had more
> specific information (even if it is a little loose).
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave
>
> "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> news:Rn3mh.980$Wx4.132587@wagner.videotron.net...
>>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this
>> >device over
>> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>> >
>> > 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
>> > 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the
>> > SkyCaddie.
>> >
>> <snipped>
>> >
>> > I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy,
>> > but I do
>> > have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then
>> > repeat and
>> > hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was
>> > really iffy.
>> > I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would
>> > get numbers
>> > that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it
>> > seemed that,
>> > given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15
>> > seconds or
>> > some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you
>> > don't always
>> > have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get
>> > this same
>> > (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
>> >
>> > So I started paying close attention to the device at the range
>> > (where I had
>> > recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the
>> > device unmoved
>> > for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as
>> > in a
>> > couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down
>> > every 5
>> > swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like
>> > 104, 104,
>> > 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a
>> > sudden I
>> > see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15
>> > seconds later
>> > it is back around 103.
>> >
>> <snipped>
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Consumer quality GPS devices like the iGolf and SkyCaddie are
>> accurate to +/- 3-5 yards. We ordered a dozen SkyCaddie last summer
>> with the intention of having some for sale and some for rental.
>> SkyCaddie "maps" the course using expensive survey quality equipment
>> creating the "4 star professional" level course map. After our
>> course had been mapped I took 6 units and walked the front nine with
>> the Bushnell's to get a feel for the difference between the
>> SkyCaddie and the rangefinder. I noticed that at times there was
>> quite a variance between the 6 SkyCaddie units (up to 30 yards) but
>> in general they were accurate to +/- 3 yards. The Bushnell is +/- 1
>> yard. The intelligreen feature of the 4 star mapping, where you see
>> the front of green, and back of green, carry from any angle of
>> approach is amazing and worth the price of the unit.
>>
>> We sold a few units and then started having complaints about
>> occasional large discrepancies. I repeated my front nine test with
>> three units recording all the measurements I took and reported the
>> results to the SkyCaddie people. It turned out that there had been a
>> change to a new satellite last spring and that the accuracy problem
>> was affecting the entire east coast of North America. The SkyCaddie
>> support line was receiving 100's of calls each day. I heard also
>> that a pro tour in the northeast that uses the SkyCaddie had to
>> cancel some dates. The satellite issues, which were entirely
>> beyond the control of SkyCaddie, have now apparently been resolved
>> but the damage has been done for us since the units sat in the back
>> room for the rest of the season. We'll try again in the spring. I
>> would imagine that iGolf might be using the same satellite.
>>
>> I used the SkyCaddie about 15 times at our course and several others
>> in the area and I think it's a great device, especially from the
>> rough. You do have to stop and wait between 20-30 seconds before
>> taking a reading to give it time to settle which takes a bit of
>> getting used to but usually doesn't impact speed of play. I have
>> been using a Bushnell in practice rounds for several years and I
>> think the SkyCaddie has many advantages over the range finder.
>> Unfortunately it couldn't be trusted 100% so I'm not ready to
>> recommend it for other than practice rounds at this time but it has
>> great potential.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 15:02:54
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote in message
news:WJmdne3nkc5EjwTYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@comcast.com...
> I'd take the satellites story with a really big grain of salt as GPS is
use
> is so pervasive in out lives - land surveying, vehicle navigation, private
> and commercial aviation to say nothing of the US military - that any
failure
> of GPS would be front page news.
>
> I've been using an SG2 three or four rounds a week since July and it has
> been reliable. The biggest problem is how well courses are mapped. It even
> works inside the golf bag. By its own admission it take a few minutes to
> stabilize when first turned on. Often, I turn it on and leave it inside
the
> bag before heading to the course. When I get there, it is up and running.
>

That is a fair observation (satellite story), I'd say.

It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.

FWIW, http://gps.faa.gov/Library/waas-f.htm is a pretty good sumy of WAAS
for those who might be considering a GPS device (not my recommendation, but
YMMV).

dave

> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:rO7mh.5229$pQ3.4345@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Re: Attached
> >
> > Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen to know
> > the
> > timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved (and when
> > they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you had
more
> > specific information (even if it is a little loose).
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> > news:Rn3mh.980$Wx4.132587@wagner.videotron.net...
> >>
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >> news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this
> >> >device over
> >> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
> >> >
> >> > 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> >> > 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the
> >> > SkyCaddie.
> >> >
> >> <snipped>
> >> >
> >> > I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy,
> >> > but I do
> >> > have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then
> >> > repeat and
> >> > hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was
> >> > really iffy.
> >> > I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would
> >> > get numbers
> >> > that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it
> >> > seemed that,
> >> > given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15
> >> > seconds or
> >> > some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you
> >> > don't always
> >> > have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get
> >> > this same
> >> > (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
> >> >
> >> > So I started paying close attention to the device at the range
> >> > (where I had
> >> > recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the
> >> > device unmoved
> >> > for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as
> >> > in a
> >> > couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down
> >> > every 5
> >> > swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like
> >> > 104, 104,
> >> > 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a
> >> > sudden I
> >> > see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15
> >> > seconds later
> >> > it is back around 103.
> >> >
> >> <snipped>
> >> >
> >> > dave
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Consumer quality GPS devices like the iGolf and SkyCaddie are
> >> accurate to +/- 3-5 yards. We ordered a dozen SkyCaddie last summer
> >> with the intention of having some for sale and some for rental.
> >> SkyCaddie "maps" the course using expensive survey quality equipment
> >> creating the "4 star professional" level course map. After our
> >> course had been mapped I took 6 units and walked the front nine with
> >> the Bushnell's to get a feel for the difference between the
> >> SkyCaddie and the rangefinder. I noticed that at times there was
> >> quite a variance between the 6 SkyCaddie units (up to 30 yards) but
> >> in general they were accurate to +/- 3 yards. The Bushnell is +/- 1
> >> yard. The intelligreen feature of the 4 star mapping, where you see
> >> the front of green, and back of green, carry from any angle of
> >> approach is amazing and worth the price of the unit.
> >>
> >> We sold a few units and then started having complaints about
> >> occasional large discrepancies. I repeated my front nine test with
> >> three units recording all the measurements I took and reported the
> >> results to the SkyCaddie people. It turned out that there had been a
> >> change to a new satellite last spring and that the accuracy problem
> >> was affecting the entire east coast of North America. The SkyCaddie
> >> support line was receiving 100's of calls each day. I heard also
> >> that a pro tour in the northeast that uses the SkyCaddie had to
> >> cancel some dates. The satellite issues, which were entirely
> >> beyond the control of SkyCaddie, have now apparently been resolved
> >> but the damage has been done for us since the units sat in the back
> >> room for the rest of the season. We'll try again in the spring. I
> >> would imagine that iGolf might be using the same satellite.
> >>
> >> I used the SkyCaddie about 15 times at our course and several others
> >> in the area and I think it's a great device, especially from the
> >> rough. You do have to stop and wait between 20-30 seconds before
> >> taking a reading to give it time to settle which takes a bit of
> >> getting used to but usually doesn't impact speed of play. I have
> >> been using a Bushnell in practice rounds for several years and I
> >> think the SkyCaddie has many advantages over the range finder.
> >> Unfortunately it couldn't be trusted 100% so I'm not ready to
> >> recommend it for other than practice rounds at this time but it has
> >> great potential.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 10:33:45
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Dave Lee wrote:
>
> It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
> notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
> ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
> in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.

You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
to four hundred dollars.

Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.

Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:21:11
From: Robert Hamilton
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Bert Robbins wrote:

> Dave Lee wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
> > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
> > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
> > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
>
> You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
> are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
> that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
> Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
> position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
> land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
> to four hundred dollars.
>
> Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.

I have used these things for a while for teaching and research. They have come a
long way, and even the cheap units can be as accurate as possible (1M). The
issue in the better units seems to be how fast they give you a stable reading.
As I am sure you know, things like atmospheric disturbances and number of
satellites will affect accuracy, and you really can't do anything about that.
You cannot guarantee that you will have 6 satellites and a 100% "transparent"
atmosphere for your big game.

There have to be some compromises with Sky Caddies, because 400 bucks isn't
going to get you anywhere near "the best". I prefer a unit that won't give you a
reading till it's stable, and that takes up to 5 minutes with the moderately
priced units I use most often (don't have to have too many expensive units
stolen or lost before you realize that waiting 5 minutes is no big deal when you
are out in the field!). I suspect most golfers don't want to wait up till 5
minutes so Sky Caddies will give you *A* reading almost immediately.

Date: 01 Jan 2007 18:04:16
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Robert Hamilton" <DBID@att.net > wrote in message
news:459932D7.6852CC33@att.net...
>
>
> Bert Robbins wrote:
>
> > Dave Lee wrote:
> > >
> > > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I
did
> > > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially
different
> > > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have
you
> > > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over
time?
> > > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf
Caddie
> > > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
> >
> > You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> > consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
> > are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
> > that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
> > Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
> > position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
> > land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
> > to four hundred dollars.
> >
> > Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.
>
> I have used these things for a while for teaching and research. They have
come a
> long way, and even the cheap units can be as accurate as possible (1M).
The
> issue in the better units seems to be how fast they give you a stable
reading.
> As I am sure you know, things like atmospheric disturbances and number of
> satellites will affect accuracy, and you really can't do anything about
that.
> You cannot guarantee that you will have 6 satellites and a 100%
"transparent"
> atmosphere for your big game.
>
> There have to be some compromises with Sky Caddies, because 400 bucks
isn't
> going to get you anywhere near "the best". I prefer a unit that won't give
you a
> reading till it's stable, and that takes up to 5 minutes with the
moderately
> priced units I use most often (don't have to have too many expensive units
> stolen or lost before you realize that waiting 5 minutes is no big deal
when you
> are out in the field!). I suspect most golfers don't want to wait up till
5
> minutes so Sky Caddies will give you *A* reading almost immediately.
>

That description would match my experience perfectly

- results are sometimes good, sometimes not
- "quick measurements" (less than a minute) are always suspect

Thanks for the info.

dave

Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:07:31
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Bert Robbins" <screw@you.com > wrote in message
news:hoKdnTMjssREtATYnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I
did
> > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have
you
> > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf
Caddie
> > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
>
> You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that
> are in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not
> that much better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex
> Legend that is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the
> position accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want
> land surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two
> to four hundred dollars.
>
> Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.

I would be thrilled with my device if it was accurate to 3 meters -
absolutely THRILLED. But I'm not :-(

dave

Date: 01 Jan 2007 10:49:32
From: sfb
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Sky Caddie is also full WAAS. What you are describing is the sophistication
of the device not the GPS accuracy. The multi channel GPS engines have
become commodities so software doing position - inches vs. yards -
presentation may be the difference between your more expensive Garmin and
other devices.

"Bert Robbins" <screw@you.com > wrote in message
news:hoKdnTMjssREtATYnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
> You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
> consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that are
> in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not that much
> better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex Legend that
> is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the position
> accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want land
> surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two to four
> hundred dollars.
>
> Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.

Date: 01 Jan 2007 11:29:04
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

My Garmin eTrex Legend only cost me $249 about five or six years ago,
after a $50 rebate.

The accuracy is dependent upon the quality of the antenna and the
quality of the software within the GPS receiver that calculates the
position. For $249 three to five meter accuracy is good enough for most
applications.

sfb wrote:
> Sky Caddie is also full WAAS. What you are describing is the sophistication
> of the device not the GPS accuracy. The multi channel GPS engines have
> become commodities so software doing position - inches vs. yards -
> presentation may be the difference between your more expensive Garmin and
> other devices.
>
> "Bert Robbins" <screw@you.com> wrote in message
> news:hoKdnTMjssREtATYnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>
>> You are dealing with a consumer grade GPS. Skycaddie and iGolf are
>> consumer grade GPS devices along with most of the other GPS units that are
>> in the same price range. The automobile navigation units are not that much
>> better for five to ten times the price. I have a Garmin eTrex Legend that
>> is WAAS capable and I can set in my front yard and watch the position
>> accuracy change as the satellites cross the sky. If you want land
>> surveying and weapons delivery accuracy you won't find if for two to four
>> hundred dollars.
>>
>> Three meter accuracy is about as good as you are going to get.
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 10:31:26
From: sfb
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

I have compared Sky Caddie to Sky Caddie and to kers on new courses and
the Sky Caddie is very reliable and accurate within a yard or two.

The buyer beware comparing to course kers is the line of play. Lasers and
GPS devices are direct straight line measurements. Course kers may be
following the line of play around dog legs, etc.

The age of the course kers is another concern. Today, land surveyors are
all lasers and GPS.

Many older courses were done with those walking wheel measuring devices so
terrain ups and downs and human error will more easily creep in.

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:yo9mh.6086$yx6.4661@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote in message
> news:WJmdne3nkc5EjwTYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> I'd take the satellites story with a really big grain of salt as GPS is
> use
>> is so pervasive in out lives - land surveying, vehicle navigation,
>> private
>> and commercial aviation to say nothing of the US military - that any
> failure
>> of GPS would be front page news.
>>
>> I've been using an SG2 three or four rounds a week since July and it has
>> been reliable. The biggest problem is how well courses are mapped. It
>> even
>> works inside the golf bag. By its own admission it take a few minutes to
>> stabilize when first turned on. Often, I turn it on and leave it inside
> the
>> bag before heading to the course. When I get there, it is up and running.
>>
>
> That is a fair observation (satellite story), I'd say.
>
> It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I did
> notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have you
> ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf Caddie
> in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
>
> FWIW, http://gps.faa.gov/Library/waas-f.htm is a pretty good sumy of
> WAAS
> for those who might be considering a GPS device (not my recommendation,
> but
> YMMV).
>
> dave
>
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> news:rO7mh.5229$pQ3.4345@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> > Re: Attached
>> >
>> > Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen to
>> > know
>> > the
>> > timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved (and
>> > when
>> > they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you had
> more
>> > specific information (even if it is a little loose).
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
>> > news:Rn3mh.980$Wx4.132587@wagner.videotron.net...
>> >>
>> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> >> >A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this
>> >> >device over
>> >> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
>> >> > 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the
>> >> > SkyCaddie.
>> >> >
>> >> <snipped>
>> >> >
>> >> > I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy,
>> >> > but I do
>> >> > have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then
>> >> > repeat and
>> >> > hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was
>> >> > really iffy.
>> >> > I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would
>> >> > get numbers
>> >> > that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it
>> >> > seemed that,
>> >> > given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15
>> >> > seconds or
>> >> > some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you
>> >> > don't always
>> >> > have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get
>> >> > this same
>> >> > (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
>> >> >
>> >> > So I started paying close attention to the device at the range
>> >> > (where I had
>> >> > recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the
>> >> > device unmoved
>> >> > for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as
>> >> > in a
>> >> > couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down
>> >> > every 5
>> >> > swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like
>> >> > 104, 104,
>> >> > 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a
>> >> > sudden I
>> >> > see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15
>> >> > seconds later
>> >> > it is back around 103.
>> >> >
>> >> <snipped>
>> >> >
>> >> > dave
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Consumer quality GPS devices like the iGolf and SkyCaddie are
>> >> accurate to +/- 3-5 yards. We ordered a dozen SkyCaddie last summer
>> >> with the intention of having some for sale and some for rental.
>> >> SkyCaddie "maps" the course using expensive survey quality equipment
>> >> creating the "4 star professional" level course map. After our
>> >> course had been mapped I took 6 units and walked the front nine with
>> >> the Bushnell's to get a feel for the difference between the
>> >> SkyCaddie and the rangefinder. I noticed that at times there was
>> >> quite a variance between the 6 SkyCaddie units (up to 30 yards) but
>> >> in general they were accurate to +/- 3 yards. The Bushnell is +/- 1
>> >> yard. The intelligreen feature of the 4 star mapping, where you see
>> >> the front of green, and back of green, carry from any angle of
>> >> approach is amazing and worth the price of the unit.
>> >>
>> >> We sold a few units and then started having complaints about
>> >> occasional large discrepancies. I repeated my front nine test with
>> >> three units recording all the measurements I took and reported the
>> >> results to the SkyCaddie people. It turned out that there had been a
>> >> change to a new satellite last spring and that the accuracy problem
>> >> was affecting the entire east coast of North America. The SkyCaddie
>> >> support line was receiving 100's of calls each day. I heard also
>> >> that a pro tour in the northeast that uses the SkyCaddie had to
>> >> cancel some dates. The satellite issues, which were entirely
>> >> beyond the control of SkyCaddie, have now apparently been resolved
>> >> but the damage has been done for us since the units sat in the back
>> >> room for the rest of the season. We'll try again in the spring. I
>> >> would imagine that iGolf might be using the same satellite.
>> >>
>> >> I used the SkyCaddie about 15 times at our course and several others
>> >> in the area and I think it's a great device, especially from the
>> >> rough. You do have to stop and wait between 20-30 seconds before
>> >> taking a reading to give it time to settle which takes a bit of
>> >> getting used to but usually doesn't impact speed of play. I have
>> >> been using a Bushnell in practice rounds for several years and I
>> >> think the SkyCaddie has many advantages over the range finder.
>> >> Unfortunately it couldn't be trusted 100% so I'm not ready to
>> >> recommend it for other than practice rounds at this time but it has
>> >> great potential.
>> >>
>> >> Gary
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 16:06:37
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote in message
news:tumdnaviJMyytATYnZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
> I have compared Sky Caddie to Sky Caddie and to kers on new courses and
> the Sky Caddie is very reliable and accurate within a yard or two.
>
> The buyer beware comparing to course kers is the line of play. Lasers
and
> GPS devices are direct straight line measurements. Course kers may be
> following the line of play around dog legs, etc.
>
> The age of the course kers is another concern. Today, land surveyors
are
> all lasers and GPS.
>
> Many older courses were done with those walking wheel measuring devices so
> terrain ups and downs and human error will more easily creep in.
>

I would expect an iGolf to iGolf direct comparison to also be very favorable
because the measurements are being taken at the same time.

My question was 'are the measurements the same at different times', which is
a different question (and the issue that I ran into with iGolf).

The best result that I have ever seen was yesterday at my practice area
where I was around 48 yards from a 'target tree'. The measurements displayed
varied between 46 and 52 yards (over a 30 minute period and ignoring the
occasional/obvious "fleeting reading").

dave

> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> news:yo9mh.6086$yx6.4661@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote in message
> > news:WJmdne3nkc5EjwTYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> I'd take the satellites story with a really big grain of salt as GPS is
> > use
> >> is so pervasive in out lives - land surveying, vehicle navigation,
> >> private
> >> and commercial aviation to say nothing of the US military - that any
> > failure
> >> of GPS would be front page news.
> >>
> >> I've been using an SG2 three or four rounds a week since July and it
has
> >> been reliable. The biggest problem is how well courses are mapped. It
> >> even
> >> works inside the golf bag. By its own admission it take a few minutes
to
> >> stabilize when first turned on. Often, I turn it on and leave it inside
> > the
> >> bag before heading to the course. When I get there, it is up and
running.
> >>
> >
> > That is a fair observation (satellite story), I'd say.
> >
> > It sounds like your experience with the Skycaddie unit is it is very
> > repeatable. I really had no information about absolute accuracy. But I
did
> > notice that maybe 10% of the time I would get a substantially different
> > number from "the norm". It sounds like you have not noticed that. Have
you
> > ever let a Skycaddie just sit there and watched what happened over time?
> > Maybe there is a substantial difference between Skycaddie and iGolf
Caddie
> > in this respect, but that surprises me if it is true.
> >
> > FWIW, http://gps.faa.gov/Library/waas-f.htm is a pretty good sumy of
> > WAAS
> > for those who might be considering a GPS device (not my recommendation,
> > but
> > YMMV).
> >
> > dave
> >
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >> news:rO7mh.5229$pQ3.4345@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> > Re: Attached
> >> >
> >> > Gary, thanks for the very interesting information. Do you happen to
> >> > know
> >> > the
> >> > timeframe when the satellite problems were supposedly resolved (and
> >> > when
> >> > they started)? You referenced Spring of 2006, but wondered if you had
> > more
> >> > specific information (even if it is a little loose).
> >> >
> >> > Thanks.
> >> >
> >> > dave
> >> >
> >> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_47@myrealbox.ca> wrote in message
> >> > news:Rn3mh.980$Wx4.132587@wagner.videotron.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:ojUlh.4919$pQ3.1684@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> >> >A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this
> >> >> >device over
> >> >> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> >> >> > 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the
> >> >> > SkyCaddie.
> >> >> >
> >> >> <snipped>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy,
> >> >> > but I do
> >> >> > have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then
> >> >> > repeat and
> >> >> > hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was
> >> >> > really iffy.
> >> >> > I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would
> >> >> > get numbers
> >> >> > that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it
> >> >> > seemed that,
> >> >> > given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15
> >> >> > seconds or
> >> >> > some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you
> >> >> > don't always
> >> >> > have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get
> >> >> > this same
> >> >> > (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So I started paying close attention to the device at the range
> >> >> > (where I had
> >> >> > recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the
> >> >> > device unmoved
> >> >> > for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as
> >> >> > in a
> >> >> > couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down
> >> >> > every 5
> >> >> > swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like
> >> >> > 104, 104,
> >> >> > 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a
> >> >> > sudden I
> >> >> > see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15
> >> >> > seconds later
> >> >> > it is back around 103.
> >> >> >
> >> >> <snipped>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > dave
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Consumer quality GPS devices like the iGolf and SkyCaddie are
> >> >> accurate to +/- 3-5 yards. We ordered a dozen SkyCaddie last summer
> >> >> with the intention of having some for sale and some for rental.
> >> >> SkyCaddie "maps" the course using expensive survey quality equipment
> >> >> creating the "4 star professional" level course map. After our
> >> >> course had been mapped I took 6 units and walked the front nine with
> >> >> the Bushnell's to get a feel for the difference between the
> >> >> SkyCaddie and the rangefinder. I noticed that at times there was
> >> >> quite a variance between the 6 SkyCaddie units (up to 30 yards) but
> >> >> in general they were accurate to +/- 3 yards. The Bushnell is +/- 1
> >> >> yard. The intelligreen feature of the 4 star mapping, where you see
> >> >> the front of green, and back of green, carry from any angle of
> >> >> approach is amazing and worth the price of the unit.
> >> >>
> >> >> We sold a few units and then started having complaints about
> >> >> occasional large discrepancies. I repeated my front nine test with
> >> >> three units recording all the measurements I took and reported the
> >> >> results to the SkyCaddie people. It turned out that there had been a
> >> >> change to a new satellite last spring and that the accuracy problem
> >> >> was affecting the entire east coast of North America. The SkyCaddie
> >> >> support line was receiving 100's of calls each day. I heard also
> >> >> that a pro tour in the northeast that uses the SkyCaddie had to
> >> >> cancel some dates. The satellite issues, which were entirely
> >> >> beyond the control of SkyCaddie, have now apparently been resolved
> >> >> but the damage has been done for us since the units sat in the back
> >> >> room for the rest of the season. We'll try again in the spring. I
> >> >> would imagine that iGolf might be using the same satellite.
> >> >>
> >> >> I used the SkyCaddie about 15 times at our course and several others
> >> >> in the area and I think it's a great device, especially from the
> >> >> rough. You do have to stop and wait between 20-30 seconds before
> >> >> taking a reading to give it time to settle which takes a bit of
> >> >> getting used to but usually doesn't impact speed of play. I have
> >> >> been using a Bushnell in practice rounds for several years and I
> >> >> think the SkyCaddie has many advantages over the range finder.
> >> >> Unfortunately it couldn't be trusted 100% so I'm not ready to
> >> >> recommend it for other than practice rounds at this time but it has
> >> >> great potential.
> >> >>
> >> >> Gary
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Date: 01 Jan 2007 14:27:52
From: GaryC_47
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:hkamh.5279$pQ3.5186@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote in message
> news:tumdnaviJMyytATYnZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> I have compared Sky Caddie to Sky Caddie and to kers on new
>> courses and
>> the Sky Caddie is very reliable and accurate within a yard or
>> two.
>>
>> The buyer beware comparing to course kers is the line of play.
>> Lasers
> and
>> GPS devices are direct straight line measurements. Course kers
>> may be
>> following the line of play around dog legs, etc.
>>
>> The age of the course kers is another concern. Today, land
>> surveyors
> are
>> all lasers and GPS.
>>
>> Many older courses were done with those walking wheel measuring
>> devices so
>> terrain ups and downs and human error will more easily creep in.
>>
>
> I would expect an iGolf to iGolf direct comparison to also be very
> favorable
> because the measurements are being taken at the same time.
>
> My question was 'are the measurements the same at different
> times', which is
> a different question (and the issue that I ran into with iGolf).
>
> The best result that I have ever seen was yesterday at my practice
> area
> where I was around 48 yards from a 'target tree'. The measurements
> displayed
> varied between 46 and 52 yards (over a 30 minute period and
> ignoring the
> occasional/obvious "fleeting reading").
>
> dave

'are the measurements the same at different times'

Based on my experience the answer is maybe yes, maybe no. Every
second day over a two week period I placed three units on the same
kers, allowed them to stabilize, and recorded the distances
displayed. I rarely had all three showing the same distance at the
same time. From one day to the next they were always close but
hardly ever the same as previous days. All measurements were +/- 3
yards for the entire test period, however, which was pretty good.
Unfortunately that level of accuracy didn't last.

From what I understand there are several sources of error which add
up to +/- 15 meters. WAAS brings this down to +/- 3-5 meters. So I
guess we're talking possibly 11 yards difference from one day to the
next while standing on the same spot.

Gary

Date: 31 Dec 2006 16:47:48
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Mike Dalecki wrote:
> I've seen some pretty big variances between what my laser (Yardage Pro
> Tour) can do and what the GPS stuff can do. Heck, I've seen 5 and 6
> yard differences in distance on two golfcart gps systems parked side by
> side.

I look at it this way. A GPS system is just a map that could be
outdated. I've missed plenty of turns by following the exact directions
from mapquest.com when I could see the destination just by looking.
I'll take the live real-time measurements any day over what the GPS or
the guy who laid out the course says.

I've also played in many tournaments that give you pin sheets.
Invariably, at least one of the holes will have the wrong numbers on it
like 5 paces from the front instead of the back.
I'd rather just measure it myself.

The Bushnell's are accurate enough that if you get a reading of say 140
and then take a big step forward the next reading will be 139. The
also don't hit you with advertisements like "Be sure to stop by the
snack bar at the turn," like some of those on-cart GPS systems do.

Date: 31 Dec 2006 20:16:51
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

annika1980 wrote:
> Mike Dalecki wrote:
>> I've seen some pretty big variances between what my laser (Yardage Pro
>> Tour) can do and what the GPS stuff can do. Heck, I've seen 5 and 6
>> yard differences in distance on two golfcart gps systems parked side by
>> side.
>
> I look at it this way. A GPS system is just a map that could be
> outdated. I've missed plenty of turns by following the exact directions
> from mapquest.com when I could see the destination just by looking.
> I'll take the live real-time measurements any day over what the GPS or
> the guy who laid out the course says.
>
> I've also played in many tournaments that give you pin sheets.
> Invariably, at least one of the holes will have the wrong numbers on it
> like 5 paces from the front instead of the back.
> I'd rather just measure it myself.
>
> The Bushnell's are accurate enough that if you get a reading of say 140
> and then take a big step forward the next reading will be 139. The
> also don't hit you with advertisements like "Be sure to stop by the
> snack bar at the turn," like some of those on-cart GPS systems do.
>

You can order a cheeseburger and a beer with the on-cart GPS systems
from the 9th tee.

Date: 31 Dec 2006 16:39:48
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Bert Robbins wrote:
> On the par 3's I judged the
> yardage by using the color coded pins and the tee box yardage kers, I
> was within a yard or two of the gentleman when he stated the yardage out
> loud for everyone's benefit. Using the fairway yardage kers I walked
> off his ball's distance and I figured the yardage to within 5 yards of
> his ranger finder.

What if the pin colors were wrong or you were playing a course that
wasn't well-ked?
And what if you weren't in the fairway? Also, is 5 yards accurate
enough? Say you think you're 145 and you hit the perfect shot which
goes straight at the flag exactly 145 yards.
But you were really 140 and now you have a 15' downhiller when you
shoulda had a tap-in birdie.

A side benefit to knowing your exact distance is the feedback you get
from it. You quickly learn exactly how far you hit each club. Once you
know this that 5 yards becomes even more important.

Another benefit is for tee shots, especially on courses you haven't
played. Normally, you see that big bunker looming at the corner of the
dogleg and you play wide of it. But with a quick peg of your
rangefinder you now learn that it's only 185 to carry the trap and so
you play more aggressive and cut the dogleg.

You also mentioned the time aspect. I've always found it much quicker
to do a quick peg which takes maybe 10 seconds than to go look for a
yardage ker and then pace off the distance. Of course, I don't use
a pouch. That's about as geeky as having those silly plastic "face
savers" on your irons. No offense, Dalecki.

Date: 31 Dec 2006 20:39:33
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

annika1980 wrote:
> Bert Robbins wrote:
>> On the par 3's I judged the
>> yardage by using the color coded pins and the tee box yardage kers, I
>> was within a yard or two of the gentleman when he stated the yardage out
>> loud for everyone's benefit. Using the fairway yardage kers I walked
>> off his ball's distance and I figured the yardage to within 5 yards of
>> his ranger finder.
>
> What if the pin colors were wrong or you were playing a course that
> wasn't well-ked?

Just hitting the center of the green is good enough for me.

> And what if you weren't in the fairway? Also, is 5 yards accurate
> enough? Say you think you're 145 and you hit the perfect shot which
> goes straight at the flag exactly 145 yards.
> But you were really 140 and now you have a 15' downhiller when you
> shoulda had a tap-in birdie.

Tap in birdie, what's that?

>
> A side benefit to knowing your exact distance is the feedback you get
> from it. You quickly learn exactly how far you hit each club. Once you
> know this that 5 yards becomes even more important.

I can screw up an approach shot with or without a GPS or range finder.

> Another benefit is for tee shots, especially on courses you haven't
> played. Normally, you see that big bunker looming at the corner of the
> dogleg and you play wide of it. But with a quick peg of your
> rangefinder you now learn that it's only 185 to carry the trap and so
> you play more aggressive and cut the dogleg.

Usually the fairway bunkers are out of my range from the tee.

> You also mentioned the time aspect. I've always found it much quicker
> to do a quick peg which takes maybe 10 seconds than to go look for a
> yardage ker and then pace off the distance. Of course, I don't use
> a pouch. That's about as geeky as having those silly plastic "face
> savers" on your irons. No offense, Dalecki.
>

You must not be a completely dressed golfer if you don't have a pouch
for your range finder. Maybe Nike will start making one.

Date: 31 Dec 2006 17:55:16
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Dave Lee wrote:
> A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device over
> the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>
> 1) Skycaddie's required yearly rental fee irritated me.
> 2) The iGolf device supports more user defined points than the SkyCaddie.
>
> It is worth noting that SkyCaddie has a more sophisticated display system,
> but I was mostly interested in pure distances.
>
> The only laser device that I had ever spent a decent amount of time with was
> an older Nikon model. I found it quite difficult to use from more than 150
> yards and this was a significant factor in choosing GPS over laser
> technologies (Bushnell Pinseeker technology may improve this - don't know).
> However laser has a very significant advantage over GPS in that very
> critical under 100 yards range (where actual distance to the pin rather than
> Front/Center/Rear) becomes important at my skill level. But I chose GPS
> anyway.
>
> I posted a review of this device back on 9/16/06 - GPS Type "Rangerfinder"
> Review (iGolf). In that review I was generally pleased with the device, but
> stated that accuracy was "OK, but just barely". I had hoped/assumed that as
> I gained experience with the device that I would gain a better understanding
> of how it works and get better results. The real answer is the more I use it
> the less I trust it.
>
> I honestly don't have a good calibration for absolute accuracy, but I do
> have good calibration for repeatability (take a measurement, then repeat and
> hopefully get the same answer). My experience on the course was really iffy.
> I was typically got reasonable answers, but occasionally would get numbers
> that were obviously 10-20 (or more) yards off. In general it seemed that,
> given a 'screwey' number, if you wanted a minute (or maybe 15 seconds or
> some period of time) you would get a reasonable answer. But you don't always
> have that time luxury and I was always left wondering 'would I get this same
> (or similar) number 30 seconds from now?'.
>
> So I started paying close attention to the device at the range (where I had
> recorded all the flags - very handy) where I could leave the device unmoved
> for a half hour or more. The device tended to be pretty stable (as in a
> couple yards) most of the time. For example I was looking down every 5
> swings or so and for one flag position was seeing numbers like 104, 104,
> 102, 105, 103, 104 (VERY acceptable in my mind) and then all of a sudden I
> see a 91! That lasted maybe 10 seconds then it reads 95 and 15 seconds later
> it is back around 103.
>
> I've mucked around with "Stabilization On/Off" and "WAAS On/Off". But this
> occasional 'way off the map' number seems to be the way it is. The result
> (for me) is that every time I use the device I wonder "will I see this same
> number 30 seconds from now?". I was getting pretty frustrated and really
> wondering if it was worth bothering with.
>
> So the other day I was walking toward the range and thinking that surely the
> manufacturer shipped this device with the settings most likely to work
> optimally. I had no idea what those were so I went into settings and
> selected 'reset to defaults'. The settings are Stabilization, WAAS, Screen
> Settings, Battery Types, and Power Optimization. I got a message about loss
> of data and for a fleeting moment thought "surely these guys don't wipe out
> all your golf course data - I'm just doing settings".
>
> So I went ahead and said 'Yes'. Low and behold, they wiped out every course
> that I had mapped - probably 200 to 250 custom points. There is a pretty
> easy way to back up you data to your PC and I had done this a while back,
> but probably only half of the custom points were backed up (my error, but an
> INCREDIBLY STUPID design).
>
> Because of another design error making mapping points while you are playing
> and trying to use the device awkward, it is a bunch of work to remap the
> points that I had not backed up. And the honest truth is that this thing is
> simply not worth that much effort.
>
> I am a practice hound, practice at four different locations, and find having
> each of these places mapped to be very convenient and this also mostly
> avoids the inconsistent readings problem. So I'll probably keep it and use
> it for practice.
>
> But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I would
> assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.
>
> I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.
>
> dave
>
>

My experience with GPS--though limited--was enough to sour me on the
possibilities. As you note, it's probably not that big a deal at long
distances, but in my mind, once you get past about 160 yards, it doesn't
need to be that accurate (I'm not good enough for a 4-yard error to
matter that much).

But at the shorter distances--well, 4 or 5 yards is significant to me.
I found that, once I *knew* what the distance was, instead of having to
guesstimate it from sprinkler heads and eyeballing the pin on the green,
my short game accuracy improved significantly.

I've seen some pretty big variances between what my laser (Yardage Pro
Tour) can do and what the GPS stuff can do. Heck, I've seen 5 and 6
yard differences in distance on two golfcart gps systems parked side by
side.

In the end, I don't trust it much. The only place I think it has real
value is if you can't see the flag, either because you're behind a
landform or trees, or you're downhill enough that the flag is hidden.

Last year, golfing at The Oaks for RSG-Wisconsin, the golf carts had
GPS. On one hole, the GPS said the distance was 94; I scoped it and
found it to be about 121. Turns out they had made a mistake in the
system when they set up pin positions. Gary Hayenga hit a very nice
short iron about 94 yards. Problem was, it left him with about a
million-foot putt, over hill and dale.

And I've had people w/ the Skycaddie system stand next to me and tell me
the distance to the pin; I scope it, and we're off by 5, 6, maybe even 8
yards. At a close distance, that's a heck of a lot.

GPS has some advantages--if it works right. You don't have to do
anything but look at it, so it's quick, and on golf courses w/ GPS
systems on the carts, you often have distances provided to lay up to or
clear hazards. And if you can't see the flag, well, it's nice that way
too. If it works.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you--nothing worse than having invested
a lot of time into something just to have it not work out.

BTW: W/ my rangefinder, I always sight on the flag. I can pick it up
to about 180 yards away. If it's longer than that, I just sight on a
bunker, or a golfer on the green, or whatever is nearby. With the
longer distances, if I'm within 5 yards, that's good enough for my skill
level.

Mike

--
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Report http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
RSG-Wisconsin 2007: June 22-24----Lawsonia!

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:10:19
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Mike Dalecki" <mike@removeclubdoctor.com > wrote in message
news:4vr0vbF1coji2U1@mid.individual.net...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > snip
> My experience with GPS--though limited--was enough to sour me on the
> possibilities. As you note, it's probably not that big a deal at long
> distances, but in my mind, once you get past about 160 yards, it doesn't
> need to be that accurate (I'm not good enough for a 4-yard error to
> matter that much).
>
> But at the shorter distances--well, 4 or 5 yards is significant to me.
> I found that, once I *knew* what the distance was, instead of having to
> guesstimate it from sprinkler heads and eyeballing the pin on the green,
> my short game accuracy improved significantly.
>
> I've seen some pretty big variances between what my laser (Yardage Pro
> Tour) can do and what the GPS stuff can do. Heck, I've seen 5 and 6
> yard differences in distance on two golfcart gps systems parked side by
> side.
>
snip

Mike, do you have any comparative experience with the Yardage Pro Tour vs.
Pinseeker models? I believe that the Yardage Pro Tour is often available
(particularly in the used ket) for a good deal less than the Tournament
Edition Pinseeker.

Thanks.

dave

Date: 01 Jan 2007 14:40:51
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Dave Lee wrote:
> "Mike Dalecki" <mike@removeclubdoctor.com> wrote in message
> news:4vr0vbF1coji2U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Dave Lee wrote:
>>> snip
>> My experience with GPS--though limited--was enough to sour me on the
>> possibilities. As you note, it's probably not that big a deal at long
>> distances, but in my mind, once you get past about 160 yards, it doesn't
>> need to be that accurate (I'm not good enough for a 4-yard error to
>> matter that much).
>>
>> But at the shorter distances--well, 4 or 5 yards is significant to me.
>> I found that, once I *knew* what the distance was, instead of having to
>> guesstimate it from sprinkler heads and eyeballing the pin on the green,
>> my short game accuracy improved significantly.
>>
>> I've seen some pretty big variances between what my laser (Yardage Pro
>> Tour) can do and what the GPS stuff can do. Heck, I've seen 5 and 6
>> yard differences in distance on two golfcart gps systems parked side by
>> side.
>>
> snip
>
> Mike, do you have any comparative experience with the Yardage Pro Tour vs.
> Pinseeker models? I believe that the Yardage Pro Tour is often available
> (particularly in the used ket) for a good deal less than the Tournament
> Edition Pinseeker.
>
> Thanks.
>
> dave

No, I don't, Dave. It'd be nice to compare them.

Mike

--
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2006 Report http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2006/pics/
RSG-Wisconsin 2007: June 22-24----Lawsonia!

Date: 31 Dec 2006 16:23:56
From: Bert Robbins
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

Dave Lee wrote:
> A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device over
> the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.

[Snip]

>
> But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I would
> assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.
>
> I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.

On Friday I played with a gentleman who had a laser range finder, I
don't know the brand and I didn't ask. On the par 3's I judged the
yardage by using the color coded pins and the tee box yardage kers, I
was within a yard or two of the gentleman when he stated the yardage out
loud for everyone's benefit. Using the fairway yardage kers I walked
off his ball's distance and I figured the yardage to within 5 yards of
his ranger finder. Each time he used the range finder it took him about
30 seconds to get it out of its pouch and then he needed to sight in the
flag and take a reading, then he would bring the range finder away from
his eye and look at the flag directly for a few seconds and then to put
the range finder back in its pouch.

I didn't really see the benefit of a laser range finder due to the time
and effort required to get a reading. And, knowing that a GPS is only as
good as the quality and number of signals it receives at time you want
to read it and the quality of the course mapping it is of questionable
benefit too.

I never did exceptionally well in advanced math classes but, I do have a
good understanding of basic mathematics and I can usually get the
correct answer when adding and subtracting one, two and three digit
numbers. Oh, I work in the technology field, however, there are some
things that just do not need to be automated.

Bert

Date: 01 Jan 2007 00:00:44
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: GPS Golf Bites the Dust (iGolf)

"Bert Robbins" <screw@you.com > wrote in message
news:uoedndFvv6rwtwXYnZ2dnUVZ_qarnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> > A couple months ago I bought an iGolf GPS Caddie. I chose this device
over
> > the more popular GPS SkyCaddie for two reasons.
>
> [Snip]
>
> >
> > But for 'on the course usage' my iGolf GPS Caddie is outta' the bag. I
would
> > assume that the Skycaddie has the same problems, but maybe not.
> >
> > I'll probably buy a rangefinder some time in 2007, but am in no rush.
>
> On Friday I played with a gentleman who had a laser range finder, I
> don't know the brand and I didn't ask. On the par 3's I judged the
> yardage by using the color coded pins and the tee box yardage kers, I
> was within a yard or two of the gentleman when he stated the yardage out
> loud for everyone's benefit. Using the fairway yardage kers I walked
> off his ball's distance and I figured the yardage to within 5 yards of
> his ranger finder. Each time he used the range finder it took him about
> 30 seconds to get it out of its pouch and then he needed to sight in the
> flag and take a reading, then he would bring the range finder away from
> his eye and look at the flag directly for a few seconds and then to put
> the range finder back in its pouch.
>
> I didn't really see the benefit of a laser range finder due to the time
> and effort required to get a reading. And, knowing that a GPS is only as
> good as the quality and number of signals it receives at time you want
> to read it and the quality of the course mapping it is of questionable
> benefit too.
>
> I never did exceptionally well in advanced math classes but, I do have a
> good understanding of basic mathematics and I can usually get the
> correct answer when adding and subtracting one, two and three digit
> numbers. Oh, I work in the technology field, however, there are some
> things that just do not need to be automated.
>
> Bert

For me I had 3 things that I was hoping to get out of the device.

1) Convenience in determining yardages to the green from outside 80'ish
yards. I wasn't after anything better than what I get from sprinkler heads,
just wanted to quite the wandering around for them.

2) Layup and/or carry distances for a goodly number of bunkers, water,
doglegs, etc. I deal with a lot of that on the courses that I play
regularly.

3) Assistance in determining yardages inside 80 yards. I was assuming that
if I mapped Frnt/Center/Rear myself and knew exactly where those points are,
that I could adquately (in most cases) estimate pitch yardages.

Ultimately requirement #1 was clearly not met as I was still hunting out
sprinkler heads to verify the displayed yardage on the device. When/if I get
a rangefinder we'll have to see which is more convenient - using the
rangefinder or continuing to walk off sprinkler head yardages. My instincts
are that I'll typically use ked yardages - as you pointed out
rangefinder's do take time/effort.

The GPS device was quite good at requirement #2 within the limitation of
never being positive that you aren't in one of those 30 second intervals
where the numbers are wrong.

The rangefinder is clearly superior for requirement #3. This is relatively
important to me as I regularly practice to specific yardages using my 'six
flags drill" (a ker every 10 yards from 20 to 70 yards). I would rather
know the yardage but be unable to see the target, than see the target but
not have the yardage. For the most part I didn't bother even trying to use
the GPS device for this purpose.

But I'm not exactly chomping at the bit to get a rangefinder.

dave