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Date: 23 Apr 2007 04:44:37
From:
Subject: Fairway drop?
Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
drop?





 
Date: 26 Apr 2007 01:55:10
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 25 Apr, 12:36, montm...@aol.com wrote:
> > By provisional ball, do you mean a ROG 3-3a play a second ball and settle it
> > up later?<
>
> Yep. BTW, how is playing a provisional ball from the fairway
> accomplished? You're playing two balls...do you keep playing the ball
> that's away until they're both in the hole?

Yes. But neither ball is a provisional.




 
Date: 26 Apr 2007 01:53:29
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 25 Apr, 22:02, Zuke <m...@privacy.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, david s-a wrote:
> > Zuke wrote:
> >> I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
> >> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
> >> a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>
> > A pile of discarded grass clippings is not GUR...it is a pile of loose
> > impediments! No free drop!
>
> > :-)
> > david
>
> Remember when that guy hit it into the woods on 13 at August 5 or
> 10 years ago and got a free drop because somebody had dropped
> some clippings back there?


That was material piled for removal, not discarded.




 
Date: 25 Apr 2007 17:02:48
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, david s-a wrote:

> Zuke wrote:
>> I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>> a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>
>
> A pile of discarded grass clippings is not GUR...it is a pile of loose
> impediments! No free drop!
>
> :-)
> david

Remember when that guy hit it into the woods on 13 at August 5 or
10 years ago and got a free drop because somebody had dropped
some clippings back there?




  
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:01:55
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Zuke wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, david s-a wrote:
>
>> Zuke wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>> a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>
>>
>>
>> A pile of discarded grass clippings is not GUR...it is a pile of loose
>> impediments! No free drop!
>>
>> :-)
>> david
>
>
> Remember when that guy hit it into the woods on 13 at August 5 or
> 10 years ago and got a free drop because somebody had dropped
> some clippings back there?
>
>


No I don't....but being Augusta I doubt they would have allowed anyone
to discard clippings....I would suggest these HAD been 'piled for
removal'...but no-one removed them! So in those circumstances the player
would have been entitled to relief under Rule 25-1.(See Note 1 to that
rule).

This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten years
ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in 'loose
impediments'...not GUR!

cheers
david


   
Date: 26 Apr 2007 00:36:31
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
david s-a wrote:

> This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
> 'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten years
> ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in 'loose
> impediments'...not GUR!

We have a large pile of tree branches (acculumated from new greens work)
just in front of and left of the 16th tee. At some stage it will be
burnt in situ. Is that "piled for removal" under the definition? Does
removal only mean "taken somewhere else"?

We have had a number of cases where players have hit their ball into the
pile and wanted relief. Since the area is normally knee-deep grass and
bushes anyway, I've suggested they're "pushing it" a bit! In one case
the ball was at the back of the pile, but the player wanted to come back
out to the front of the pile onto the fairway. I suggested in that case
the point of relief was actually behind the pile deeper into the scrub. :-)

--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------


    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 11:20:11
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Colin Wilson wrote:

> We have a large pile of tree branches (acculumated from new greens work)
> just in front of and left of the 16th tee. At some stage it will be
> burnt in situ. Is that "piled for removal" under the definition? Does
> removal only mean "taken somewhere else"?
>

I would suggest that 'piled for removal' means actually piled near the
source of the material, with the clear purpose that it is pending
imminent removal to a remore disposal area;(usual examples are grass
cuttings piled close to the green, core plugs etc, freshly swept leaves
and the like).

Situations as you describe, which is a site purposely chosen to
temporarily accumulate material for eventual removal in bulk, or for
burning in situ, or as a tip site, is clearly greenkeepers work and
should obviously be allowed as GUR. However, being of a semi-permanent
nature, the grounds staff or Committee should really define the actual
edges of the area for clarity, using temporary white 'GUR' stakes/lines.

In my experience female players in particular have their own logic in
determining if they get relief. Typically, in their minds, a tree branch
or debris that has only just hit the ground in a storm immediately
qualifies as GUR...".because it will be removed eventually..".! (God
piled it there!)

BTW Colin, latest Googe Earth Version 4 has Trentham GC in beautiful
high resolution....with what looks like very recent pictures. I think I
see your white s/wagon in the car park!

Any one interested just type 'Trentham,Victoria, Australia' in the 'fly
to' space, amd Google Earth takes you there at high speed...the golf
club is clearly evident just north of the very small town of Trentham.

cheers
david


     
Date: 26 Apr 2007 01:40:20
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
david s-a wrote:

> BTW Colin, latest Googe Earth Version 4 has Trentham GC in beautiful
> high resolution....with what looks like very recent pictures. I think I
> see your white s/wagon in the car park!
>
> Any one interested just type 'Trentham,Victoria, Australia' in the 'fly
> to' space, amd Google Earth takes you there at high speed...the golf
> club is clearly evident just north of the very small town of Trentham.

Dry as a bone though then. Taken around March last year at the end of a
long dry summer. The three new greens (12, 13, 15) still have their sand
base before seeding, and the temporary greens are clearly visible.

Dry now too. Gee, I hope we get this forecast rain tomorrow. Our dam at
the course is almost empty.

If you go directly north of the golf course about 6-7 kilometres, you
get right to my place in the wonderful metropolis of Spring Hill!

--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------


   
Date: 25 Apr 2007 23:17:42
From: Bear
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:01:55 +1000, david s-a
<dsantwyk@bigpond.net.au > wrote:

>Zuke wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, david s-a wrote:
>>
>>> Zuke wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>>> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>>> a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A pile of discarded grass clippings is not GUR...it is a pile of loose
>>> impediments! No free drop!
>>>
>>> :-)
>>> david
>>
>>
>> Remember when that guy hit it into the woods on 13 at August 5 or
>> 10 years ago and got a free drop because somebody had dropped
>> some clippings back there?
>>
>>
>
>
>No I don't....but being Augusta I doubt they would have allowed anyone
>to discard clippings....I would suggest these HAD been 'piled for
>removal'...but no-one removed them! So in those circumstances the player
>would have been entitled to relief under Rule 25-1.(See Note 1 to that
>rule).
>
>This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
>'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten years
>ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in 'loose
>impediments'...not GUR!
>
So how did he do?


    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 02:59:09
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:17:42 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca > wrote:

>>This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
>>'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten years
>>ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in 'loose
>>impediments'...not GUR!
>>
>So how did he do?

I believe he came in 2nd.


    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 09:44:41
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Bear wrote:

>>
>>
>>No I don't....but being Augusta I doubt they would have allowed anyone
>>to discard clippings....I would suggest these HAD been 'piled for
>>removal'...but no-one removed them! So in those circumstances the player
>>would have been entitled to relief under Rule 25-1.(See Note 1 to that
>>rule).

Minor typo here...the 'note' is actually attached to definition of
'Ground Under Repair'

>>
>>This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
>>'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten years
>>ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in 'loose
>>impediments'...not GUR!
>>
>
> So how did he do?


He whinged a lot... I thought he was going to cry! He spent an
extraordinary amount if time clearing the cuttings from around his ball
and then managed to hack out sideways onto the fairway. He had pulled
his tee shot into the woods, played a 'provisional' down the middle in
the faint hope that his ball was actually lost.....but we 'found' it
right on the 5-minute time limit. It was an easy birdie par 5....so he
made par anyway! He's still playing the local tour...and still
whinging/crying!

cheers
david


     
Date: 25 Apr 2007 20:02:15
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
david s-a wrote:
> Bear wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> No I don't....but being Augusta I doubt they would have allowed
>>> anyone to discard clippings....I would suggest these HAD been 'piled
>>> for removal'...but no-one removed them! So in those circumstances the
>>> player would have been entitled to relief under Rule 25-1.(See Note 1
>>> to that rule).
>
> Minor typo here...the 'note' is actually attached to definition of
> 'Ground Under Repair'
>
>>>
>>> This incidentally happens to be an identical situation to the first
>>> 'ruling' I ever had to give at a pro competition....also about ten
>>> years ago! The ruling was against the player. He was knee deep in
>>> 'loose impediments'...not GUR!
>>>
>>
>> So how did he do?
>
>
> He whinged a lot... I thought he was going to cry! He spent an
> extraordinary amount if time clearing the cuttings from around his ball
> and then managed to hack out sideways onto the fairway. He had pulled
> his tee shot into the woods, played a 'provisional' down the middle in
> the faint hope that his ball was actually lost.....but we 'found' it
> right on the 5-minute time limit. It was an easy birdie par 5....so he
> made par anyway! He's still playing the local tour...and still
> whinging/crying!
>
> cheers
> david

"He's still playing the local tour...and still whinging /crying!

And therein lies the real issue being discussed ("it ain't fair!" and "I
didn't get what I deserved") and why I like golf:

The real personality comes to the fore so easily. There just ain't no
place to hide. You and the people that you are playing with can see who
you are.

Joe


 
Date: 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--0-1415906516-1177517135=:7966
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
> <3putt@PawleysIslandSC> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>
>>> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
>>> --
>
>>
>> If only that were true.......
>>
> You're right there. Most local rules aren't listed on the scorecard,
> and it would just get you laughed at to ask in the pro shop what all
> of them are. So, in tournament play, stick with the rules that you
> know, and play two balls if you have a question.
>
> ___,
> \o
>


  
Date: 25 Apr 2007 17:52:00
From: Bear
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>
>
>
>On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
>> <3putt@PawleysIslandSC> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
>>>> --
>>
>>>
>>> If only that were true.......
>>>
>> You're right there. Most local rules aren't listed on the scorecard,
>> and it would just get you laughed at to ask in the pro shop what all
>> of them are. So, in tournament play, stick with the rules that you
>> know, and play two balls if you have a question.

>
>Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>contrary to this they are idiots.

While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns) it has
nothing to do with this. Since when has the game of golf been about
what is fair? You hit your ball, you find your ball and hit it again.
Aeration holes in the fairways are unlikely to cause much problems
with a shot and I don't see how it could cause a ball to plug.





   
Date: 25 Apr 2007 14:53:38
From: 3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
. > While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
> fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns) it has
> nothing to do with this. Since when has the game of golf been about
> what is fair? You hit your ball, you find your ball and hit it again.
> Aeration holes in the fairways are unlikely to cause much problems
> with a shot and I don't see how it could cause a ball to plug.
>
Well, there are different settings for aeration holes. some are the size of
a dime, some can be as large as a 50cent piece. The more compacted, the
larger the diameter of the plug. With the largest aeration plug, they will
pull a steel net behind after the plugs have dried to break up the plugs.
Where's the groundskeeper when we need him? And there are newer machines
for the greens that will also "suck up" the plugs as they go along. And
then along comes the top dressing of sand.




   
Date: 25 Apr 2007 18:02:36
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:52:00 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>>Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>>to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>>the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>>contrary to this they are idiots.
>
>While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
>fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns) it has
>nothing to do with this. Since when has the game of golf been about
>what is fair? You hit your ball, you find your ball and hit it again.
>Aeration holes in the fairways are unlikely to cause much problems
>with a shot and I don't see how it could cause a ball to plug.
>
There's no doubt that there are some areas of the rules of golf that
don't always make sense, there still has to be something that is
constant...and we just have to use what we have.

Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
bk


    
Date: 25 Apr 2007 16:27:37
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:7k5v231qj9l1f3qics9d89huo2qudmgf3v@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:52:00 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>>Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>>>to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>>>the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>>>contrary to this they are idiots.
>>
>>While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
>>fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns) it has
>>nothing to do with this. Since when has the game of golf been about
>>what is fair? You hit your ball, you find your ball and hit it again.
>>Aeration holes in the fairways are unlikely to cause much problems
>>with a shot and I don't see how it could cause a ball to plug.
>>
> There's no doubt that there are some areas of the rules of golf that
> don't always make sense, there still has to be something that is
> constant...and we just have to use what we have.
>
> Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
> himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
> bk

I've never thought it was "fair" that I had to count ALL my strokes. I only
want to count the good ones.

Sounds fair to me. :-)

Randy




     
Date: 25 Apr 2007 20:32:44
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:27:37 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:7k5v231qj9l1f3qics9d89huo2qudmgf3v@4ax.com...

>> Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
>> himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
>> bk
>
>I've never thought it was "fair" that I had to count ALL my strokes. I only
>want to count the good ones.
>
>Sounds fair to me. :-)
>
>Randy
>

That would result in my score on some days having been around 3 or 4
for 18 holes. :-(
bk


    
Date: 25 Apr 2007 18:20:01
From: Bear
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:02:36 GMT, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:52:00 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>>Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>>>to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>>>the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>>>contrary to this they are idiots.
>>
>>While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
>>fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns) it has
>>nothing to do with this. Since when has the game of golf been about
>>what is fair? You hit your ball, you find your ball and hit it again.
>>Aeration holes in the fairways are unlikely to cause much problems
>>with a shot and I don't see how it could cause a ball to plug.
>>
>There's no doubt that there are some areas of the rules of golf that
>don't always make sense, there still has to be something that is
>constant...and we just have to use what we have.
>
>Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
>himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)

Unfortunately I see it to often. Guys who roll the ball in the fairway
because it isn't fair to end up in a divot. Guys who nudge the ball
away from a tree because it should have been staked. Hardpan that the
maintenance crew must have missed and to be fair must be gur. It seems
that some golfers think that every lie should be perfect (and that
does include their scorecard).

Half the fun of the game is hitting shots out of sticky situations and
getting a good result. Bad bounces happen in the game and I don't know
why guys bitch and moan so much about them. Hell stripe a ball down
the fairway and end up in a divot makes me laugh because I know that
it had to be the guy's third shot :).



     
Date: 25 Apr 2007 18:52:15
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:20:01 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:02:36 GMT, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>wrote:
>

>>Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
>>himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
>
>Unfortunately I see it to often. Guys who roll the ball in the fairway
>because it isn't fair to end up in a divot. Guys who nudge the ball
>away from a tree because it should have been staked. Hardpan that the
>maintenance crew must have missed and to be fair must be gur. It seems
>that some golfers think that every lie should be perfect (and that
>does include their scorecard).
>
I hope you don't have money on these games.
>Half the fun of the game is hitting shots out of sticky situations and
>getting a good result. Bad bounces happen in the game and I don't know
>why guys bitch and moan so much about them. Hell stripe a ball down
>the fairway and end up in a divot makes me laugh because I know that
>it had to be the guy's third shot :).


bk


      
Date: 25 Apr 2007 15:08:36
From: FredK
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:gm8v23tgpv8sr6h0upsggoo6n0b8qffarq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:20:01 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:02:36 GMT, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>
>>>Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
>>>himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
>>
>>Unfortunately I see it to often. Guys who roll the ball in the fairway
>>because it isn't fair to end up in a divot. Guys who nudge the ball
>>away from a tree because it should have been staked. Hardpan that the
>>maintenance crew must have missed and to be fair must be gur. It seems
>>that some golfers think that every lie should be perfect (and that
>>does include their scorecard).
>>
> I hope you don't have money on these games.
>>Half the fun of the game is hitting shots out of sticky situations and
>>getting a good result. Bad bounces happen in the game and I don't know
>>why guys bitch and moan so much about them. Hell stripe a ball down
>>the fairway and end up in a divot makes me laugh because I know that
>>it had to be the guy's third shot :).
>


Half the fun of the game is having fun. If you are not in a competition -
who gives a rats behind? Hitting out of a divot isn't fun, it's a pain in
the arse at all levels of skill - and one change to the ROG that would be
fair (divots treated as GUR).

Bad bounces happen, and we all live with them. I "striped" a ball down the
fairway - hit a sprinkler head and snapped dead right. Sure, it pissed me
off because a (rare) really good swing was rewarded with crappy lie in a
fairway bunker - but those are the things that you live with. Did I relish
the opportunity to try a 160yd cut around a tree from the sand? Nope. Did
I pull it off? Nope (but ended up happy with the result).

Nudge a ball away from a tree? Sure so I don't destroy a wedge - Cleveland
isn't giving them to me. Remove a pebble or shell from a bunker? You
betcha don't need the results of what happens on that shot. Treat a lost
ball as a lateral hazard? If you want to make friends - go back to the tee
and take stroke and distance. Get bent out of shape when someone tosses me
my ball from 18" as a gimme? Not me. Take an occasional mulligan? Yupper.
Complain that the guy I play golf with a lot plays Winter rules in Florida
all year long? Nope. Not unless we have a bet on the line.

Now. Turn that into a league or a competition... different story - and
like it or not - different game.





       
Date: 25 Apr 2007 22:59:52
From: Bear
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:08:36 -0400, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com >
wrote:

>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:gm8v23tgpv8sr6h0upsggoo6n0b8qffarq@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:20:01 GMT, Bear <bearlysane@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:02:36 GMT, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>Can you imagine what would transpire if each player decided for
>>>>himself what was "fair" and what wasn't???? :-)
>>>
>>>Unfortunately I see it to often. Guys who roll the ball in the fairway
>>>because it isn't fair to end up in a divot. Guys who nudge the ball
>>>away from a tree because it should have been staked. Hardpan that the
>>>maintenance crew must have missed and to be fair must be gur. It seems
>>>that some golfers think that every lie should be perfect (and that
>>>does include their scorecard).
>>>
>> I hope you don't have money on these games.
>>>Half the fun of the game is hitting shots out of sticky situations and
>>>getting a good result. Bad bounces happen in the game and I don't know
>>>why guys bitch and moan so much about them. Hell stripe a ball down
>>>the fairway and end up in a divot makes me laugh because I know that
>>>it had to be the guy's third shot :).
>>
>
>
>Half the fun of the game is having fun. If you are not in a competition -
>who gives a rats behind? Hitting out of a divot isn't fun, it's a pain in
>the arse at all levels of skill - and one change to the ROG that would be
>fair (divots treated as GUR).

What is so flippin' unfair or hard about hitting a ball out of a
divot? How many times in a year do you end up in a divot? Who is going
to decide whether the divot is still a divot or just a deformity in
the ground or grown over divot? Maybe I have just been lucky but I
haven't ended up in that many and when I do I don't find them that
painful to get out of. I'd rather be in a divot than in some long
native grass.

>
>Bad bounces happen, and we all live with them. I "striped" a ball down the
>fairway - hit a sprinkler head and snapped dead right. Sure, it pissed me
>off because a (rare) really good swing was rewarded with crappy lie in a
>fairway bunker - but those are the things that you live with. Did I relish
>the opportunity to try a 160yd cut around a tree from the sand? Nope. Did
>I pull it off? Nope (but ended up happy with the result).
>
>Nudge a ball away from a tree? Sure so I don't destroy a wedge - Cleveland
>isn't giving them to me.

Hey you do know that there is a rule for that. It is called an
unplayable lie.

> Remove a pebble or shell from a bunker? You
>betcha don't need the results of what happens on that shot. Treat a lost
>ball as a lateral hazard? If you want to make friends - go back to the tee
>and take stroke and distance. Get bent out of shape when someone tosses me
>my ball from 18" as a gimme? Not me. Take an occasional mulligan? Yupper.

I can't take a mulligan 'cause I know at the end of the round I have
to add 2 strokes to the score or I am just lying to myself.

>Complain that the guy I play golf with a lot plays Winter rules in Florida
>all year long? Nope. Not unless we have a bet on the line.

Ultimately I don't give a rats derriere how others play the game. I
play with the same bunch of guys most times and we try to play by the
rules all of the time. Why? well because it makes it so we are playing
the same game. When I add them up at the end of the round and they add
them up we know that the score is as honest as it can be.

I guess I also have fun differently on a course. I find that I get
more satisfaction from a well played recovery shot than from a long
drive or long putt. Saving par or making birdie from a terrible lie is
what the game is about. If I wanted perfect conditions for every shot
I would have taken up lawn bowling.

>Now. Turn that into a league or a competition... different story - and
>like it or not - different game.

Not for me. A different game would be a scramble or some other sloppy
beer drinking excuse to be on a golf course.



        
Date: 26 Apr 2007 07:55:10
From: FredK
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?

"Bear" <bearlysane@XShawX.ca > wrote in message
news:ffmv23hu772eassft28fat0ojcpkninht8@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:08:36 -0400, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com>
> wrote:

>
> Ultimately I don't give a rats derriere how others play the game.

A worthwhile thought.




       
Date: 25 Apr 2007 15:42:32
From: Tom Yost
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:08:36 -0400, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com >
wrote:

>
>
>Half the fun of the game is having fun. If you are not in a competition -
>who gives a rats behind? Hitting out of a divot isn't fun, it's a pain in
>the arse at all levels of skill - and one change to the ROG that would be
>fair (divots treated as GUR).
>
>Bad bounces happen, and we all live with them. I "striped" a ball down the
>fairway - hit a sprinkler head and snapped dead right. Sure, it pissed me
>off because a (rare) really good swing was rewarded with crappy lie in a
>fairway bunker - but those are the things that you live with. Did I relish
>the opportunity to try a 160yd cut around a tree from the sand? Nope. Did
>I pull it off? Nope (but ended up happy with the result).
>
>Nudge a ball away from a tree? Sure so I don't destroy a wedge - Cleveland
>isn't giving them to me. Remove a pebble or shell from a bunker? You
>betcha don't need the results of what happens on that shot. Treat a lost
>ball as a lateral hazard? If you want to make friends - go back to the tee
>and take stroke and distance. Get bent out of shape when someone tosses me
>my ball from 18" as a gimme? Not me. Take an occasional mulligan? Yupper.
>Complain that the guy I play golf with a lot plays Winter rules in Florida
>all year long? Nope. Not unless we have a bet on the line.
>
>Now. Turn that into a league or a competition... different story - and
>like it or not - different game.
>
>

You are only cheating yourself.

Learn to play it down and accept the breaks the game doles out and you
will be a better golfer and better prepared to deal with those shots
you will have to pull off when you are in a competetion.


Tom


        
Date: 26 Apr 2007 07:53:41
From: FredK
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?

"Tom Yost" <tom@nospamme.com > wrote in message
news:n3mv23dsv81sp2h1mq55p0a9i5r1n3k2lq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:08:36 -0400, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com>
> wrote:

>
> You are only cheating yourself.
>
> Learn to play it down and accept the breaks the game doles out and you
> will be a better golfer and better prepared to deal with those shots
> you will have to pull off when you are in a competetion.
>

Cheating myself? If I were carrying an official handicap I would be
cheating myself (like Larry's vanity handicap).

I don't golf competetively, and don't golf for the competition. When I golf
by myself for practice, I play one ball down and play a second ball for
practice. If I'm playing with others for skins or a nassau - I'll play by
whatever self-imposed rules the others play by. Sometimes that is strict
rules, sometimes its a bit more "relaxed".

What amuses me is the guys (rules nazi's? pureists?) who always rise to the
bait about people who play by what are essentially common casual golf rules
(in the US).

On the specific issue of divots - this is a rule I can see eventually being
changed in the ROG.





  
Date: 25 Apr 2007 17:06:48
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>
>
>
>On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
>> <3putt@PawleysIslandSC> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
>>>> --
>>
>>>
>>> If only that were true.......
>>>
>> You're right there. Most local rules aren't listed on the scorecard,
>> and it would just get you laughed at to ask in the pro shop what all
>> of them are. So, in tournament play, stick with the rules that you
>> know, and play two balls if you have a question.
>>
>
>> bk
>
>Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>contrary to this they are idiots.
>
No sir. You are the idiot, and don't know, nor care about the Rules
of Golf. I don't give a crap what you do, unless we're in a
tournament, or have a bet...but the golfers with whom I play, play by
those rules.

Anybody knows! What a dolt.
bk


 
Date: 25 Apr 2007 04:36:03
From:
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
> By provisional ball, do you mean a ROG 3-3a play a second ball and settle it
> up later?<

Yep. BTW, how is playing a provisional ball from the fairway
accomplished? You're playing two balls...do you keep playing the ball
that's away until they're both in the hole?





 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 14:42:55
From: JJVP
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Apr 23, 6:44 am, montm...@aol.com wrote:
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?

This is covered on the "Local Rules" section of the RoG's

c. Aeration Holes

When a course has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief,
without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following
Local Rule is recommended:

"Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration
hole may be lifted without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as
possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball
when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration
hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids
the situation.



  
Date: 24 Apr 2007 21:50:18
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 24 Apr 2007 14:42:55 -0700, JJVP <jjvp10@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Apr 23, 6:44 am, montm...@aol.com wrote:
>> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>> drop?
>
>This is covered on the "Local Rules" section of the RoG's
>
> c. Aeration Holes
>
>When a course has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief,
>without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following
>Local Rule is recommended:
>
>"Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration
>hole may be lifted without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as
>possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball
>when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.
>
>On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration
>hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids
>the situation.

In both cases the word "may" is operative. Unfortunate that this
Local Rule either wasn't in place, or announced. The only action he
had was to play two balls and ask if there was a local rule covering
aeration in effect.
___,
\o


 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 10:59:31
From: cja
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Apr 24, 7:50 am, montm...@aol.com wrote:
> > tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
> > GUR drop.<
>
> It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
> allowing relief from fairway punches. Maybe he should have also
> played a provisional ball...
>
In that case you were right to make the guy play it down. Since the
committee said nothing, you have to do that, it is not up to the
players to decide what is GUR, when not marked. Provisional would have
been tricky. Would he take an official out after the round and inspect
every place where he took a drop to see if it was ok? Maybe he could
hope for a global decision without going that far, but if I were him I
would be worried about a DQ.





 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
a pile of discarded grass clippings.



On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, sfb wrote:

> By provisional ball, do you mean a ROG 3-3a play a second ball and settle it
> up later?
>
> Big waste of time and effort. No flipping way the Committee declares the
> area as GUR after the fact since the remainder of the field played it as it
> lies.
>
> <montmach@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1177415413.678500.41400@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>> tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
>>> GUR drop.<
>>
>> It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
>> allowing relief from fairway punches. Maybe he should have also
>> played a provisional ball...
>>
>
>
>


  
Date: 25 Apr 2007 09:05:46
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Zuke wrote:
> I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
> a pile of discarded grass clippings.


A pile of discarded grass clippings is not GUR...it is a pile of loose
impediments! No free drop!

:-)
david


  
Date: 24 Apr 2007 14:18:12
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
25/15 Aeration Holes

Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning of
that term in the Definition of "Ground Under Repair"?

A. No.

"Zuke" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:Pine.OSX.4.64.0704240945240.21502@ucfilespace.uc.edu...
>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
> maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
> a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, sfb wrote:
>
>> By provisional ball, do you mean a ROG 3-3a play a second ball and settle
>> it
>> up later?
>>
>> Big waste of time and effort. No flipping way the Committee declares the
>> area as GUR after the fact since the remainder of the field played it as
>> it
>> lies.
>>
>> <montmach@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1177415413.678500.41400@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>> tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
>>>> GUR drop.<
>>>
>>> It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
>>> allowing relief from fairway punches. Maybe he should have also
>>> played a provisional ball...
>>>
>>
>>
>>


begin 666 decision-line.gif
K1TE&.#EA`0`!`( ``")$D ```"'Y! ``````+ `````!``$```("1 $`.P``
`
end



  
Date: 24 Apr 2007 13:54:23
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>
Rules of Golf

25/15 Aeration Holes

Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning
of that term in the Definition of “Ground Under Repair”?

A. No.
--
___,
\o


   
Date: 24 Apr 2007 10:23:22
From: 3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:gv2s23p1dpjg2op799n0ug3vj6qodk54d5@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>
> Rules of Golf
>
> 25/15 Aeration Holes
>
> Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning
> of that term in the Definition of "Ground Under Repair"?
>
> A. No.
> --
> ___,


Appendix I, Local Rules: Penalty for Breach of Local Rules: C. Aeration
holes: (where the local rule is warranted) Lift, clean and drop. No
penalty.




    
Date: 24 Apr 2007 14:59:11
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:23:22 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
<3putt@PawleysIslandSC > wrote:

>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>news:gv2s23p1dpjg2op799n0ug3vj6qodk54d5@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>>maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>>a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>>
>> Rules of Golf
>>
>> 25/15 Aeration Holes
>>
>> Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning
>> of that term in the Definition of "Ground Under Repair"?
>>
>> A. No.
>> --
>> ___,
>
>
>Appendix I, Local Rules: Penalty for Breach of Local Rules: C. Aeration
>holes: (where the local rule is warranted) Lift, clean and drop. No
>penalty.
>
If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
--
___,
\o


     
Date: 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13
From: 3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:do6s23hs18k6dita1o0v1l0dv4hh5h460s@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:23:22 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
> <3putt@PawleysIslandSC> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>news:gv2s23p1dpjg2op799n0ug3vj6qodk54d5@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>>>maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>>>a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>>>
>>> Rules of Golf
>>>
>>> 25/15 Aeration Holes
>>>
>>> Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning
>>> of that term in the Definition of "Ground Under Repair"?
>>>
>>> A. No.
>>> --
>>> ___,
>>
>>
>>Appendix I, Local Rules: Penalty for Breach of Local Rules: C. Aeration
>>holes: (where the local rule is warranted) Lift, clean and drop. No
>>penalty.
>>
> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
> --
> ___,

If only that were true.......




      
Date: 24 Apr 2007 16:50:10
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
<3putt@PawleysIslandSC > wrote:

>
>"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message

>> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
>> --

>
>If only that were true.......
>
You're right there. Most local rules aren't listed on the scorecard,
and it would just get you laughed at to ask in the pro shop what all
of them are. So, in tournament play, stick with the rules that you
know, and play two balls if you have a question.

___,
\o


   
Date: 24 Apr 2007 10:12:31
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:54:23 GMT, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:46:46 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>I don't see how an recently aerated hole would not fall under
>>maintenance and thus a free drop just like if you drive into
>>a pile of discarded grass clippings.
>>
>Rules of Golf
>
>25/15 Aeration Holes
>
>Q. Is an aeration hole a hole made by a greenkeeper within the meaning
>of that term in the Definition of “Ground Under Repair”?
>
>A. No.

Seems pretty clear to me.
--
jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com


 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 04:50:13
From:
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
> tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
> GUR drop.<

It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
allowing relief from fairway punches. Maybe he should have also
played a provisional ball...



  
Date: 26 Apr 2007 01:51:24
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 25 Apr, 18:52, Bear <bearlys...@XShawX.ca > wrote:

>
> While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
> fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns)

What makes you say that?



   
Date: 26 Apr 2007 15:55:42
From: Bear
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 26 Apr 2007 01:51:24 -0700, johnty <johnty1@hotmail.com > wrote:

>On 25 Apr, 18:52, Bear <bearlys...@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
>> fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns)
>
>What makes you say that?

I guess it stems from my dislike of pompous old rich guys and gals who
pat themselves on the back for taking the game to the poor down
trodden masses.




  
Date: 25 Apr 2007 17:08:59
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:05:35 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:40:13 -0400, "3Putt from CoastalSouth Carolina"
>>> <3putt@PawleysIslandSC> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>> If there is a local rule, it would be posted. Otherwise 25/15.
>>>>> --
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If only that were true.......
>>>>
>>> You're right there. Most local rules aren't listed on the scorecard,
>>> and it would just get you laughed at to ask in the pro shop what all
>>> of them are. So, in tournament play, stick with the rules that you
>>> know, and play two balls if you have a question.
>>>
>>
>>> bk
>>
>> Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>> to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>> the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>> contrary to this they are idiots.
>>
> No sir. You are the idiot, and don't know, nor care about the Rules
> of Golf. I don't give a crap what you do, unless we're in a
> tournament, or have a bet...but the golfers with whom I play, play by
> those rules.
>
> Anybody knows! What a dolt.
> bk

Looks like I do play by the rules of golf since there is a local
exception. Are you saying the local committee is irresponsible in
their duties in not scoping out the condition of the course?
Besides this wasn't a tournament but a friendly match. You are
the dolt and probably have few golf companions if you really carry
on such a draconian attitude toward this great game.

It's pretty obvious when a course has been recently aerated or not.
Even a simpleton like you could probably figure it out.




   
Date: 25 Apr 2007 21:28:59
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:08:59 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:

>>>
>>> Anybody knows when they are aerating greens and fairways you are allowed
>>> to move to a place if your ball plugs. This is not even a "rub of
>>> the green" issue. It's basic fairness. If the USGA has a rule
>>> contrary to this they are idiots.
>>>
>> No sir. You are the idiot, and don't know, nor care about the Rules
>> of Golf. I don't give a crap what you do, unless we're in a
>> tournament, or have a bet...but the golfers with whom I play, play by
>> those rules.
>>
>> Anybody knows! What a dolt.
>> bk
>
>Looks like I do play by the rules of golf since there is a local
>exception. Are you saying the local committee is irresponsible in
>their duties in not scoping out the condition of the course?

There can be a local exception, but you have no idea if there was one
or not. Of course the committee is responsible in outlining the
course conditions.

>Besides this wasn't a tournament but a friendly match.

Let's see who's the dolt here. Try looking at:

From: montmach@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Date: 24 Apr 2007 04:50:13 -0700

Where the OP posted:

>It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
>allowing relief from fairway punches.

> You are the dolt and probably have few golf companions if you really carry
>on such a draconian attitude toward this great game.
>
Playing tournament golf by the rules is NOT draconian, and I have no
problem playing with anyone at my club that plays by the rules. We
seldom play when there is not money riding on the game.

>It's pretty obvious when a course has been recently aerated or not.
>Even a simpleton like you could probably figure it out.

You can't read, can you? Even if it has been aerated, there must be a
local rule in effect to override rule 25/15. Only then can you take
free relief, and that wasn't the case in the original poster's
scenario. Now who's the simpleton?

Aren't you the one who thought that Tiger broke his 4I on purpose at
the Masters? Oh, and the one that wasn't sure that stymies weren't
played anymore.

You didn't read the original poster's words, and you either don't
know the rules, or refuse to play by them.

Case closed.


>
___,
\o


  
Date: 24 Apr 2007 07:59:11
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
By provisional ball, do you mean a ROG 3-3a play a second ball and settle it
up later?

Big waste of time and effort. No flipping way the Committee declares the
area as GUR after the fact since the remainder of the field played it as it
lies.

<montmach@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1177415413.678500.41400@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
>> GUR drop.<
>
> It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
> allowing relief from fairway punches. Maybe he should have also
> played a provisional ball...
>




   
Date: 27 Apr 2007 03:19:08
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 26 Apr, 16:55, Bear <bearlys...@XShawX.ca > wrote:
> On 26 Apr 2007 01:51:24 -0700, johnty <john...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 25 Apr, 18:52, Bear <bearlys...@XShawX.ca> wrote:
>
> >> While I do think the stuffed blazers at the USGA are idiots (and to be
> >> fair so are the R&A bunch as well as our own RCGA clowns)
>
> >What makes you say that?
>
> I guess it stems from my dislike of pompous old rich guys and gals who
> pat themselves on the back for taking the game to the poor down
> trodden masses.

Ah, so you mean in geneal, rather than their tinkering with the rules?



   
Date: 26 Apr 2007 05:03:53
From: cja
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Apr 25, 11:57 pm, Zuke <m...@privacy.net > wrote:

> The OP was playing in a casual round, not a tournament ...
>
No. The OP said it was a tournament, although not in his first post.
My initial reply was that it should not be much of an issue, unless it
was a tournament. Then he informed us it was a tournament, which is a
different story, as we learned in many followup posts.

- cja




    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 12:09:30
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 26 Apr 2007 05:03:53 -0700, cja <cja@excite.com > wrote:

>On Apr 25, 11:57 pm, Zuke <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> The OP was playing in a casual round, not a tournament ...
>>
>No. The OP said it was a tournament, although not in his first post.
>My initial reply was that it should not be much of an issue, unless it
>was a tournament. Then he informed us it was a tournament, which is a
>different story, as we learned in many followup posts.
>
> - cja
>
Some of us learned in followup posts.
--
___,
\o


   
Date: 25 Apr 2007 23:57:16
From: Zuke
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?



On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:08:59 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>>>>
>> It's pretty obvious when a course has been recently aerated or not.
>> Even a simpleton like you could probably figure it out.
>
> You can't read, can you? Even if it has been aerated, there must be a
> local rule in effect to override rule 25/15. Only then can you take
> free relief, and that wasn't the case in the original poster's
> scenario. Now who's the simpleton?

The OP was playing in a casual round, not a tournament and the
aeration was going on while they were playing. It's not
rocket science to figure out that any sane person would allow
the ball to be dropped in that situation. The ruling body in
that case is the head pro and as somebody else pointed out, they'd
probably be laughed out of the pro shop for even bothering
to ask.

> Aren't you the one who thought that Tiger broke his 4I on purpose at
> the Masters? Oh, and the one that wasn't sure that stymies weren't
> played anymore.
>

You keep bringing this up without mentioning my caveat that I had
not seen the incident. The OP sounded like Tiger had merely bent the
club and then snapped it in two. I later saw a still picture in golf
world and it's pretty obvious the club was bent in two by the shot.
I might have been joking about the stymies.

> You didn't read the original poster's words, and you either don't
> know the rules, or refuse to play by them.

Let's just say I've never been DQ'd.



    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 04:37:25
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:57:16 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:08:59 -0400, Zuke <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2007, Bobby Knight wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>> It's pretty obvious when a course has been recently aerated or not.
>>> Even a simpleton like you could probably figure it out.
>>
>> You can't read, can you? Even if it has been aerated, there must be a
>> local rule in effect to override rule 25/15. Only then can you take
>> free relief, and that wasn't the case in the original poster's
>> scenario. Now who's the simpleton?
>
>The OP was playing in a casual round, not a tournament and the
>aeration was going on while they were playing.

Are you insane, or just a little retarded? Check your news reader
for the post at the time below:


From: montmach@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Date: 24 Apr 2007 04:50:13 -0700

Where the OP posted:

"It was a tournament round, and the Committee made no mention of
allowing relief from fairway punches".

Are you saying that the OP didn't know what the game was? Holy Crap,
you're in another world.


>It's not rocket science to figure out that any sane person would allow
>the ball to be dropped in that situation. The ruling body in
>that case is the head pro and as somebody else pointed out, they'd
>probably be laughed out of the pro shop for even bothering
>to ask.

Dimwit!! Read the OP's post...again. Rocket science? You can't even
read a simple post and get it right. It was a tournament. There was
no mention of a local rule regarding aeration.
>
>> Aren't you the one who thought that Tiger broke his 4I on purpose at
>> the Masters? Oh, and the one that wasn't sure that stymies weren't
>> played anymore.
>>
>
>You keep bringing this up without mentioning my caveat that I had
>not seen the incident. The OP sounded like Tiger had merely bent the
>club and then snapped it in two. I later saw a still picture in golf
>world and it's pretty obvious the club was bent in two by the shot.

Here's some real proof of your dementia. I have never brought this up
in the past. Never. Ever. Try to cite it. However, it says
volumes that you would comment on it without seeing the incident.

>I might have been joking about the stymies.

That's possible.
>
>> You didn't read the original poster's words, and you either don't
>> know the rules, or refuse to play by them.
>
>Let's just say I've never been DQ'd.

You've been DQ'd on this specific thread.
___,
\o


 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 00:48:58
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On 23 Apr 2007 04:44:37 -0700, montmach@aol.com wrote:

>Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>drop?

It is not the same as hitting out of a divot - it's pretty much like
hitting on good grass, while hitting out of a divot is dicey.

In the absence of rules to the contrary - play it as it lies.


 
Date: 24 Apr 2007 08:41:06
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
montmach@aol.com wrote:
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?
>


It is common around here for a course to declare a "Temporary Local
Rule" providing a 'preferred lie' for a ball that lies in a fresh
aeriation hole in closely mown ground. Usually within one
hand-span/card-width.

david


 
Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:18:02
From: Gordon
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
I called the USGA with a rules question and, to my surprise, was transferred
to a rules person. They answered the question quickly.

Was great!
<montmach@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1177328677.106179.50100@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?
>




  
Date: 23 Apr 2007 15:25:08
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:18:02 -0400, "Gordon" <paragonfl@gmail.com >
wrote:

>I called the USGA with a rules question and, to my surprise, was transferred
>to a rules person. They answered the question quickly.
>
>Was great!

You obviously didn't talk to the rules guy who answers the phone when
I call.
--
jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com


 
Date: 23 Apr 2007 14:02:18
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
montmach@aol.com wrote:
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?
>

What ever happened to the concept of "Play it as you find it." ?

Joe


  
Date: 23 Apr 2007 21:14:44
From: David
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:18 -0400, Joe <Joe@nospamwarwickDOTnet.org >
wrote:

>montmach@aol.com wrote:
>> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>> drop?
>>
>
>What ever happened to the concept of "Play it as you find it." ?

That went out the door when the pros started getting breaks because
they always have a "committee" declaring GUR. There is no way I would
have made someone play a ball that ended up in an aeration hole.

>Joe

David


   
Date: 23 Apr 2007 16:22:21
From: Joe
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
David wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:18 -0400, Joe <Joe@nospamwarwickDOTnet.org>
> wrote:
>
>> montmach@aol.com wrote:
>>> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>>> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>>> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>>> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>>> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>>> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>>> drop?
>>>
>> What ever happened to the concept of "Play it as you find it." ?
>
> That went out the door when the pros started getting breaks because
> they always have a "committee" declaring GUR. There is no way I would
> have made someone play a ball that ended up in an aeration hole.
>
>> Joe
>
> David

I know that is what is going on, but an aeration hole? It is 1/4 to 3/8
inch dimple, a tight lie.

Everyone on every goat track would like to be playing Augusta, but the
games is still supposed to be you against the course/nature. Just play
the ball with the rules. I realize that these guys weren't playing n
official match with a "committee" and even by extension of the logic
that the foursome itself constituted "the committee", I don't think that
they can over rules the ROG. Decision 25/15 is explicit with aeration
holes.

They guy was smacked by the rub of the green. He should be man enough
to accept that or switch to billiards.

Obviously this is a little pet peeve of mine.

Joe


    
Date: 26 Apr 2007 11:25:41
From: Blagovist
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Joe wrote:
> David wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:18 -0400, Joe <Joe@nospamwarwickDOTnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> montmach@aol.com wrote:
>>>> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>>>> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>>>> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>>>> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>>>> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>>>> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>>>> drop?
>>>>
>>> What ever happened to the concept of "Play it as you find it." ?
>>
>> That went out the door when the pros started getting breaks because
>> they always have a "committee" declaring GUR. There is no way I would
>> have made someone play a ball that ended up in an aeration hole.

Then you should be disqualified under "agreeing to break the rules"

Blago


    
Date: 23 Apr 2007 20:47:06
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:22:21 -0400, Joe <Joe@nospamwarwickDOTnet.org >
wrote:


>Everyone on every goat track would like to be playing Augusta, but the
>games is still supposed to be you against the course/nature. Just play
>the ball with the rules. I realize that these guys weren't playing n
>official match with a "committee" and even by extension of the logic
>that the foursome itself constituted "the committee", I don't think that
>they can over rules the ROG. Decision 25/15 is explicit with aeration
>holes.

There is always a "Committee" regardless of the situation.
--
jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com


    
Date: 24 Apr 2007 00:27:44
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Joe wrote:
> David wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:02:18 -0400, Joe <Joe@nospamwarwickDOTnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> montmach@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
>>>> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
>>>> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
>>>> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
>>>> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
>>>> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
>>>> drop?
>>>>
>>> What ever happened to the concept of "Play it as you find it." ?
>>
>>
>> That went out the door when the pros started getting breaks because
>> they always have a "committee" declaring GUR. There is no way I would
>> have made someone play a ball that ended up in an aeration hole.
>>
>>> Joe
>>
>>
>> David
>
>
> I know that is what is going on, but an aeration hole? It is 1/4 to 3/8
> inch dimple, a tight lie.
>
> Everyone on every goat track would like to be playing Augusta, but the
> games is still supposed to be you against the course/nature. Just play
> the ball with the rules. I realize that these guys weren't playing n
> official match with a "committee" and even by extension of the logic
> that the foursome itself constituted "the committee", I don't think that
> they can over rules the ROG. Decision 25/15 is explicit with aeration
> holes.
>
> They guy was smacked by the rub of the green. He should be man enough
> to accept that or switch to billiards.
>
> Obviously this is a little pet peeve of mine.
>
> Joe

Hmmm ... good call ... I didn't see that decision. I'm a little
surprised, but it certainly seems clear enough that it's not GUR. Thanks.

Rob


 
Date: 23 Apr 2007 17:44:49
From: Rob Davis
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
I think technically GUR can only be declared by "the Committee" in a
tournament or marked by the course management. But having said that, I
would certainly give someone relief from a punched fairway as GUR ... as
you point out it's certainly different from a divot.

Rob

montmach@aol.com wrote:
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?
>


  
Date: 26 Apr 2007 11:24:34
From: Blagovist
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
Rob Davis wrote:
> I think technically GUR can only be declared by "the Committee" in a
> tournament or marked by the course management. But having said that, I
> would certainly give someone relief from a punched fairway as GUR ... as
> you point out it's certainly different from a divot.

But it's not your call to make this ruling - next you'll be allowing
"gimmes".

Blago


 
Date: 23 Apr 2007 05:02:59
From: cja
Subject: Re: Fairway drop?
On Apr 23, 7:44 am, montm...@aol.com wrote:
> Was playing in Nevada last week and a guy in our foursome bombs a
> drive right down Broadway. He gets to the ball, though, and it's in a
> punch mark from the ground aeriation the course is doing. Can he take
> relief? Seems to me a punch mark is not the same as a divot; a punch
> mark could almost be construed as "ground under repair." Anyway, the
> guy was killing me so I made him play it...but could he have taken a
> drop?
>
Rather harsh of you making the guy play it out of the hole. Playing
winter rules is legitimate if the fairway is aerated, rolling the ball
an inch or so to get it out of a hole, if necessary. If this was not a
tournament round, you should not need to waste time making a formal
GUR drop.

- cja