Dropping a ball on a cart path

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Date: 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Dropping a ball on a cart path

When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?

Date: 10 Jan 2007 23:41:44
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Bobby Knight wrote:

> .... Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to
> drop it on a cart path.

The rules also do not prevent it.

Date: 10 Jan 2007 12:20:07
From: newellsatwsu
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
> >When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
> >are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
> >normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>
> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
> you can go back as far as you want to drop.

We have a hole at my winter course that has cart path that parallels
just outside the lateral hazard line. If you are going to use the
2-club length option for lateral hazard relief and the path is in that
area, you have to drop it on the cart path when using that option. It
doesn't matter if the ball lands on an obstruction when taking a
drop...it matters where the ball comes to rest.

20-2b
---------------------------------
A ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course where the
applicable Rule requires it to be dropped. If it is not so dropped,
Rules 20-6 and -7 apply.
----------------------------------

IOW, the cart path is part of the course. If it comes the ball comes
to rest in a spot where the path affects your swing or your stance, you
then proceed under the immovable obstruction relief procedure.

Or you can just play Match Play Madness. :-)

Date: 10 Jan 2007 14:42:57
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On 10 Jan 2007 12:20:07 -0800, "newellsatwsu"
<newellatwsu@adelphia.net > wrote:

>Bobby Knight wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>> >are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>> >normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>>
>> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>> you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>
>We have a hole at my winter course that has cart path that parallels
>just outside the lateral hazard line. If you are going to use the
>2-club length option for lateral hazard relief and the path is in that
>area, you have to drop it on the cart path when using that option. It
>doesn't matter if the ball lands on an obstruction when taking a
>drop...it matters where the ball comes to rest.
>
>20-2b
>---------------------------------
>A ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course where the
>applicable Rule requires it to be dropped. If it is not so dropped,
>Rules 20-6 and -7 apply.
>----------------------------------
>
>IOW, the cart path is part of the course. If it comes the ball comes
>to rest in a spot where the path affects your swing or your stance, you
>then proceed under the immovable obstruction relief procedure.
>
>Or you can just play Match Play Madness. :-)

But...Howard said "water hazard", not lateral hazard. Big difference.

There is never a reason to drop a ball on an obstruction when behind a
water hazard because you can drop it as far back as you want, keeping
the point where the ball last crossed the hazard between you and the
pin. Not so for a lateral hazard.

bk

Date: 10 Jan 2007 22:54:51
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:42:57 -0600, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>But...Howard said "water hazard", not lateral hazard. Big difference.

Isn't a lateral water hazard a type of water hazard?

Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:04:37
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

The ROG defines a Lateral Water Hazard ( A "lateral water hazard'' is a
water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not
possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball
behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b) as one form of Water
Hazard so your contention that a Lateral Water Hazard isn't a Water hazard
lacks foundation.

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:sijaq2943agkmje411b2vqq8tge3cfp86g@4ax.com...
>
> But...Howard said "water hazard", not lateral hazard. Big difference.
>
> There is never a reason to drop a ball on an obstruction when behind a
> water hazard because you can drop it as far back as you want, keeping
> the point where the ball last crossed the hazard between you and the
> pin. Not so for a lateral hazard.
>
> bk

Date: 10 Jan 2007 15:16:16
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:04:37 -0500, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:

>The ROG defines a Lateral Water Hazard ( A "lateral water hazard'' is a
>water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not
>possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball
>behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b) as one form of Water
>Hazard so your contention that a Lateral Water Hazard isn't a Water hazard
>lacks foundation.

Exactly.
HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
HE SAID WATER HAZARD, so you must take a drop BEHIND it, at any
distance, keeping the point where your ball last crossed the hazard
between you and the pin. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to
drop it on a cart path. If it had been called a lateral hazard it
would be different.

I can't fathom how this is so hard to understand.

(apologies to GH for using his tradek caps) :-)
--
___,
\o

Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:31:23
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Please stop putting word's in Howard's mouth. He said Water Hazard which by
definition includes Lateral Water Hazards.

"Next to a Water Hazard" sounds like a Lateral Water Hazard to most of the
civilized world.

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:cflaq2tcie5fcr2u1vv3d32fpt83pr7391@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:04:37 -0500, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
>>The ROG defines a Lateral Water Hazard ( A "lateral water hazard'' is a
>>water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not
>>possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball
>>behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b) as one form of
>>Water
>>Hazard so your contention that a Lateral Water Hazard isn't a Water hazard
>>lacks foundation.
>
> Exactly.
> HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
> HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
> HOWARD DID NOT SAY LATERAL.
> HE SAID WATER HAZARD, so you must take a drop BEHIND it, at any
> distance, keeping the point where your ball last crossed the hazard
> between you and the pin. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to
> drop it on a cart path. If it had been called a lateral hazard it
> would be different.
>
> I can't fathom how this is so hard to understand.
>
> (apologies to GH for using his tradek caps) :-)
> --
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:19:10
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:31:23 -0500, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net > wrote:

>Please stop putting word's in Howard's mouth. He said Water Hazard which by
>definition includes Lateral Water Hazards.
>
>"Next to a Water Hazard" sounds like a Lateral Water Hazard to most of the
>civilized world.

Here's Howard's exact words.

"When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
normally do? What do you do in a club tournament"?

Now, show me where I'm putting words in his mouth. He did not say
lateral. By definition, which I posted before, a water hazard is NOT
a lateral water hazard, or maybe you just can't comprehend english.

I don't give a shit what it "sounds" like to you. He said water
hazard. Deal with it.
--
___,
\o

Date: 10 Jan 2007 22:43:40
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

In article <ddpaq2dpfbkv0e1lu49k5skjfmvd9p4jjn@4ax.com >,
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:31:23 -0500, "sfb" <sfb@spam.net> wrote:
>
> >Please stop putting word's in Howard's mouth. He said Water Hazard which by
> >definition includes Lateral Water Hazards.
> >
> >"Next to a Water Hazard" sounds like a Lateral Water Hazard to most of the
> >civilized world.
>
> Here's Howard's exact words.
>
> "When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
> are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
> normally do? What do you do in a club tournament"?
>
> Now, show me where I'm putting words in his mouth. He did not say
> lateral. By definition, which I posted before, a water hazard is NOT
> a lateral water hazard, or maybe you just can't comprehend english.
>
> I don't give a shit what it "sounds" like to you. He said water
> hazard. Deal with it.

And "water hazard" *includes* a lateral water hazard. So for you to
assume which type he meant without asking for clarification...

..well, deal with it.

> --
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:52:18
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:43:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net >
wrote:

>And "water hazard" *includes* a lateral water hazard. So for you to
>assume which type he meant without asking for clarification...
>
>..well, deal with it.
>
You also need to learn the difference between the two. Stop the
presses....there are different rules for each, and different colored
stakes for each. In order to discern between them you have to use the
adjective "lateral" and Howard didn't do that. There is no
assumption when that adjective is used...and none if it is omitted. It
was omitted.

Now you deal with it.
>
>And BTW, please change your sig delimiter to "-- " at the beginning of a
>line so that it will actually work.

Oops..done. Thanks.
--
___,
\o

Date: 10 Jan 2007 23:56:16
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

In article <h6raq2lkcbjji5tng2mohgccilvvopbcbv@4ax.com >,
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:43:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> >And "water hazard" *includes* a lateral water hazard. So for you to
> >assume which type he meant without asking for clarification...
> >
> >..well, deal with it.
> >
> You also need to learn the difference between the two. Stop the
> presses....there are different rules for each, and different colored
> stakes for each. In order to discern between them you have to use the
> adjective "lateral" and Howard didn't do that. There is no
> assumption when that adjective is used...and none if it is omitted. It
> was omitted.
>
> Now you deal with it.

There's nothing for me to deal with.

I'm fully aware of the differences between the two. I'm also aware that
the term "water hazard" encompasses both of variants. And while you are
correct that there is no assumption when the adjective "lateral" is
used, its absence *does* create an ambiguity and hence you must make an
assumption to decide he meant it in the "non-lateral" sense.

Sorry, but that's the way our language works.

> >
> >And BTW, please change your sig delimiter to "-- " at the beginning of a
> >line so that it will actually work.
>
> Oops..done. Thanks.
> --
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 11 Jan 2007 00:25:12
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 23:56:16 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net >
wrote:

>I'm fully aware of the differences between the two. I'm also aware that
>the term "water hazard" encompasses both of variants. And while you are
>correct that there is no assumption when the adjective "lateral" is
>used, its absence *does* create an ambiguity and hence you must make an
>assumption to decide he meant it in the "non-lateral" sense.
>
>Sorry, but that's the way our language works.

I disagree. If the adjective isn't there, my take on it is literal.
That's the way our language works.

Plus...I can't get my damned sig delimiter to work. There must be
something wrong because it's being entered correctly.??????
"-- "
___,
\o

Date: 11 Jan 2007 00:32:55
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

In article <cr0bq25va47k53l080r7r6nqatpivhbapr@4ax.com >,
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 23:56:16 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I'm fully aware of the differences between the two. I'm also aware that
> >the term "water hazard" encompasses both of variants. And while you are
> >correct that there is no assumption when the adjective "lateral" is
> >used, its absence *does* create an ambiguity and hence you must make an
> >assumption to decide he meant it in the "non-lateral" sense.
> >
> >Sorry, but that's the way our language works.
>
> I disagree. If the adjective isn't there, my take on it is literal.
> That's the way our language works.

Give some other examples...

>
> Plus...I can't get my damned sig delimiter to work. There must be
> something wrong because it's being entered correctly.??????
> "-- "
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 11 Jan 2007 00:54:05
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:32:55 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net >
wrote:

>> I disagree. If the adjective isn't there, my take on it is literal.
>> That's the way our language works.
>
>Give some other examples...
>
>>
We don't need to go farther. Agree to disagree I guess.

>> Plus...I can't get my damned sig delimiter to work. There must be
>> something wrong because it's being entered correctly.??????

>
>It needs to be two dashes followed by a *space* on a line by
>themselves...

Between quotes, right? That's what I'm doing. Weird.
"-- "
___,
\o

Date: 11 Jan 2007 01:03:14
From: Alan Baker
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

In article <fh2bq2tuj4q70i5irkptpbca3a3t3teg9d@4ax.com >,
Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:32:55 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> I disagree. If the adjective isn't there, my take on it is literal.
> >> That's the way our language works.
> >
> >Give some other examples...
> >
> >>
> We don't need to go farther. Agree to disagree I guess.

Your inability to support your claim about how the English language
works having been duly noted, we can do that if you wish.

>
> >> Plus...I can't get my damned sig delimiter to work. There must be
> >> something wrong because it's being entered correctly.??????
>
> >
> >It needs to be two dashes followed by a *space* on a line by
> >themselves...
>
> Between quotes, right? That's what I'm doing. Weird.

Nope. No quotes necessary. I put in the quotes so that you would make
note of the space. Just look at one of my posts before you reply.

> "-- "
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 10 Jan 2007 19:24:17
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 01:03:14 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net >
wrote:

>In article <fh2bq2tuj4q70i5irkptpbca3a3t3teg9d@4ax.com>,
> Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net> wrote:

>> Between quotes, right? That's what I'm doing. Weird.
>
>Nope. No quotes necessary. I put in the quotes so that you would make
>note of the space. Just look at one of my posts before you reply.

>> "Someone likes every shot"!
>> bk

That's the way it was before, I thought. This should do it then.
Thanks Alan.
--
___,
\o

Date: 10 Jan 2007 11:54:10
From: johnty
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Date: 10 Jan 2007 12:39:36
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?

The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
you can go back as far as you want to drop.

Would you do something different in regular play than in tournament
play? If so, why?
--
___,
\o

Date: 11 Jan 2007 10:20:12
From: david s-a
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>
>
> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
> you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>

You cannot say 'never' drop on a cartpath, relief from 'cart path drop'
might be a better option....it could take you well clear of some other
intervening obstruction....(remember Tiger's ball in the yard/roadway
behind the clubhouse).

cheers
david

Date: 10 Jan 2007 22:52:24
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:39:36 -0600, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net >
wrote:

>The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>you can go back as far as you want to drop.

This is a lateral.

> Would you do something different in regular play than in tournament
>play? If so, why?

No. I was asking what others do.

Date: 11 Jan 2007 02:51:23
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:52:24 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>>The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>>the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>>you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>
>This is a lateral.
>
>> Would you do something different in regular play than in tournament
>>play? If so, why?
>
>No. I was asking what others do.

Actually, let me modify my answer. If I am not in a tournament, and
I know that trying to drop 3 times on a cart path will end up with me
placing it on the cart and then taking relief from the cart - I will
speed up the game (to the relief of other players on the course), and
take the relief from the cart path immediately.

Date: 10 Jan 2007 16:55:52
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:52:24 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net >
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:39:36 -0600, Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>>the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>>you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>
>This is a lateral.
>

Then you proceed as was suggested by sfb.

Date: 10 Jan 2007 14:28:07
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Right idea, wrong answer. The result is not playing from the cart path, but
it takes two separate and distinct drops. First, take the hazard penalty
drop on the cart path - ROG 26. Then take an Immovable Obstruction drop to
get off the cart path - ROG 24.

One presumes Howard is asking about a lateral where you must drop with two
club lengths of the last point crossing the hazard boundary.

"Bobby Knight" <bknight@conramp.net > wrote in message
news:9fcaq2dvniramjo9tl2r4q782kqclejlbe@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
>>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>
> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
> you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>
> Would you do something different in regular play than in tournament
> play? If so, why?
> --
> ___,
> \o
>

Date: 10 Jan 2007 19:53:39
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

sfb wrote:
> Right idea, wrong answer. The result is not playing from the cart path, but
> it takes two separate and distinct drops. First, take the hazard penalty
> drop on the cart path - ROG 26. Then take an Immovable Obstruction drop to
> get off the cart path - ROG 24.
>
> One presumes Howard is asking about a lateral where you must drop with two
> club lengths of the last point crossing the hazard boundary.
>

Exactly what I thought. But of course if "nearest point" is in the
hay/woods/death on the non-hazard side of the path, then that's where
you drop....assuming you don't want to destroy your hand/club by hitting
off the path.

--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.

Date: 11 Jan 2007 06:00:28
From: Henry
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Watson deMeneux wrote:

..assuming you don't want to destroy your hand/club by hitting
> off the path.
>
>

A good time to "borrow" a club.

Henry

Date: 10 Jan 2007 19:24:47
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Bobby Knight wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>
>
> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
> you can go back as far as you want to drop.

Never? If the course is laid out so that the edge of the path is also
the gin of the hazard wouldn't you drop on the path then re-drop at
nearest point of relief?

--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.

Date: 10 Jan 2007 13:34:52
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:24:47 GMT, Watson deMeneux
<Nevermind@server.it > wrote:

>Bobby Knight wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>>>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>>>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>>
>>
>> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>> you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>
>Never? If the course is laid out so that the edge of the path is also
>the gin of the hazard wouldn't you drop on the path then re-drop at
>nearest point of relief?

See response to Pflum.
bk

Date: 10 Jan 2007 14:29:45
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

Date: 10 Jan 2007 13:34:25
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Dropping a ball on a cart path

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:29:45 -0500, John van der Pflum
<nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:24:47 GMT, Watson deMeneux
><Nevermind@server.it> wrote:
>
>>Bobby Knight wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:30:53 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>When a cart path is next to a water hazard, and the place where you
>>>>are supposed to drop the ball is on the cart path - what do you
>>>>normally do? What do you do in a club tournament?
>>>
>>>
>>> The place to drop is never on a cart path. Are you dropping behind
>>> the hazard, with the point of entry between you and the pin? If so,
>>> you can go back as far as you want to drop.
>>
>>Never? If the course is laid out so that the edge of the path is also
>>the gin of the hazard wouldn't you drop on the path then re-drop at
>>nearest point of relief?
>
>An example at my dad's club:
>
>http://www.pbase.com/jpflumjr/image/31374904
>
>"A" is a lateral hazard and the cart path essentially follows the
>hazard line.

That's a lateral hazard. Howard said water hazard, which I assumed to
be one that must be crossed.
bk