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Main
Date: 17 Mar 2007 23:11:17
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Desperation on the Putting Green
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I've never solved my putting problems, despite a good deal of effort. Quite
a while ago I bought a used long putter on ebay and spent a number of weeks
on the practice green with it. Ultimately I decided that it really didn't
fix anything - in fact didn't honestly seem to change much. But there is a
"but" here...
One stroke was truly different and promising. It is an interesting
combination of the claw, long putter, and left hand low. You just take a
normal long (not belly) putter stance, but clasp the butt end of the putter
to your chest with your right hand (not left hand). Then hold the putter
down low with your left, but use a claw type grip instead of a normal grip.
The stroke is basically to fire your left elbow at the target. As weird as
this sounds I find it VERY easy to maintain a square clubface and 'hit my
aim line' on short putts using this stroke. I worked pretty seriously on
this 6 months back, but gave up as I just couldn't every feel comfortable on
longer putts this way. I never tried it on the course in a "stipulated
round".
My putting has gone to hell again and I dug my long putter out of the closet
and interestingly this left hand low/claw grip felt pretty natural even on
longer putts (hadn't tried it in months). So I may give this another whirl.
You may be probably thinking that this is the most drastic/desperate
(legal) thing you've ever heard tried. However, a guy that I kinda' know
showed up on the practice green and he has me beat. He is switching to a
belly putter and putting left handed.
I think he has me beat.
dave
ps. BTW, on short putts this upside-down claw feels really natural to me. It
is the only putting style that I have ever tried where I can consistently
tell when I have pulled or pushed a putt at impact. I would not be surprised
if I don't end up with a mixed long-putter style of upside-down on short
ones and more normal on the longer ones. But I'm going to try upside-down
claw all the way for now.
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 05:54:07
From: Simon
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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On 18 , 13:23, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com > wrote:
> Dave: after years of frustration because I was missing short putts left,
> someone I was playing with noticed that I was moving my sternum/head to the
> left during the stroke: it was imperceptible to me, but WHAT A REVELATION.
> It was not my grip, my stroke, my left hand low, my technique - -NUTTIN
> other than moving my head/swing center.
>
> Now the cup is twice as big.
> I do mean YEARS of making the mistake and never picking up on it.
>
How exactly did you cure that problem George? If I start putting
badly, I know it's always due to the cause you mention. My eyes (then
my head and body) tend to follow the ball. Some tips for curing it are
to focus on a blade of grass behind the ball (tricky sometimes on
really short putts when the hole is almost in your eyeline) or even
look at the hole (sometimes problems with visual distractions!).
Actually, my purest strikes and best rolls are when I putt with my
eyes closed, though I've never tried this in competition...
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Date: 22 Mar 2007 20:41:53
From: Alan Murphy
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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"Simon" <hancock_simon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1174568047.693932.83380@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 18 , 13:23, "George Hibbard" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> Dave: after years of frustration because I was missing short putts left,
>> someone I was playing with noticed that I was moving my sternum/head to
>> the
>> left during the stroke: it was imperceptible to me, but WHAT A
>> REVELATION.
>> It was not my grip, my stroke, my left hand low, my technique - -NUTTIN
>> other than moving my head/swing center.
>>
>> Now the cup is twice as big.
>> I do mean YEARS of making the mistake and never picking up on it.
>>
>
> How exactly did you cure that problem George? If I start putting
> badly, I know it's always due to the cause you mention. My eyes (then
> my head and body) tend to follow the ball. Some tips for curing it are
> to focus on a blade of grass behind the ball (tricky sometimes on
> really short putts when the hole is almost in your eyeline) or even
> look at the hole (sometimes problems with visual distractions!).
> Actually, my purest strikes and best rolls are when I putt with my
> eyes closed, though I've never tried this in competition...
>
Just look for the afterimage of the ball. If it's not
where the ball was then you've moved your head.
Alan
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 07:33:46
From: Birdie Bill
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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On 21, 8:21 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left shoulder)
> has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me.
This is part of the reason I started putting with an open stance.
I don't see many pros do it, though, so it can't be good. :-)
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 14:39:14
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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On 21 2007 07:33:46 -0700, "Birdie Bill"
<bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote:
>On 21, 8:21 am, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
>> But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left shoulder)
>> has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me.
>
>This is part of the reason I started putting with an open stance.
>
>I don't see many pros do it, though, so it can't be good. :-)
>
>
If it works for you, who cares? :-) You should see Mike Dalecki's
putting stance. Very open, almost facing the hole, but he's a pretty
good putter.
___,
\o
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 10:18:20
From: Miss Anne Thrope
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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Just how deep is this desperation of yours?
Is it worse than when you look in the mirror naked?
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Date: 19 Mar 2007 23:00:01
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
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"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote ...
> I've never solved my putting problems, despite a good deal of effort.
> Quite
> a while ago I bought a used long putter on ebay and spent a number of
> weeks
> on the practice green with it. Ultimately I decided that it really didn't
> fix anything - in fact didn't honestly seem to change much. But there is a
> "but" here...
>
> One stroke was truly different and promising. It is an interesting
> combination of the claw, long putter, and left hand low. You just take a
> normal long (not belly) putter stance, but clasp the butt end of the
> putter
> to your chest with your right hand (not left hand). Then hold the putter
> down low with your left, but use a claw type grip instead of a normal
> grip.
>
> The stroke is basically to fire your left elbow at the target. As weird as
> this sounds I find it VERY easy to maintain a square clubface and 'hit my
> aim line' on short putts using this stroke. I worked pretty seriously on
> this 6 months back, but gave up as I just couldn't every feel comfortable
> on
> longer putts this way. I never tried it on the course in a "stipulated
> round".
>
> My putting has gone to hell again and I dug my long putter out of the
> closet
> and interestingly this left hand low/claw grip felt pretty natural even on
> longer putts (hadn't tried it in months). So I may give this another
> whirl.
>
> You may be probably thinking that this is the most drastic/desperate
> (legal) thing you've ever heard tried. However, a guy that I kinda' know
> showed up on the practice green and he has me beat. He is switching to a
> belly putter and putting left handed.
>
> I think he has me beat.
>
> dave
>
> ps. BTW, on short putts this upside-down claw feels really natural to me.
> It
> is the only putting style that I have ever tried where I can consistently
> tell when I have pulled or pushed a putt at impact. I would not be
> surprised
> if I don't end up with a mixed long-putter style of upside-down on short
> ones and more normal on the longer ones. But I'm going to try upside-down
> claw all the way for now.
I have two words for you, Dave...
Head case.
(Of course I mean that in the nicest way.) :-)
Randy
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Date: 18 Mar 2007 09:23:57
From: George Hibbard
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
Dave: after years of frustration because I was missing short putts left,
someone I was playing with noticed that I was moving my sternum/head to the
left during the stroke: it was imperceptible to me, but WHAT A REVELATION.
It was not my grip, my stroke, my left hand low, my technique - -NUTTIN
other than moving my head/swing center.
Now the cup is twice as big.
I do mean YEARS of making the mistake and never picking up on it.
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:pA_Kh.13681$tD2.10597@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I've never solved my putting problems, despite a good deal of effort.
> Quite
> a while ago I bought a used long putter on ebay and spent a number of
> weeks
> on the practice green with it. Ultimately I decided that it really didn't
> fix anything - in fact didn't honestly seem to change much. But there is a
> "but" here...
>
> One stroke was truly different and promising. It is an interesting
> combination of the claw, long putter, and left hand low. You just take a
> normal long (not belly) putter stance, but clasp the butt end of the
> putter
> to your chest with your right hand (not left hand). Then hold the putter
> down low with your left, but use a claw type grip instead of a normal
> grip.
>
> The stroke is basically to fire your left elbow at the target. As weird as
> this sounds I find it VERY easy to maintain a square clubface and 'hit my
> aim line' on short putts using this stroke. I worked pretty seriously on
> this 6 months back, but gave up as I just couldn't every feel comfortable
> on
> longer putts this way. I never tried it on the course in a "stipulated
> round".
>
> My putting has gone to hell again and I dug my long putter out of the
> closet
> and interestingly this left hand low/claw grip felt pretty natural even on
> longer putts (hadn't tried it in months). So I may give this another
> whirl.
>
> You may be probably thinking that this is the most drastic/desperate
> (legal) thing you've ever heard tried. However, a guy that I kinda' know
> showed up on the practice green and he has me beat. He is switching to a
> belly putter and putting left handed.
>
> I think he has me beat.
>
> dave
>
> ps. BTW, on short putts this upside-down claw feels really natural to me.
> It
> is the only putting style that I have ever tried where I can consistently
> tell when I have pulled or pushed a putt at impact. I would not be
> surprised
> if I don't end up with a mixed long-putter style of upside-down on short
> ones and more normal on the longer ones. But I'm going to try upside-down
> claw all the way for now.
>
>
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Date: 19 Mar 2007 23:07:37
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com > wrote in message
news:O3bLh.18539$Wc.7175@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Dave: after years of frustration because I was missing short putts left,
> someone I was playing with noticed that I was moving my sternum/head to
> the left during the stroke: it was imperceptible to me, but WHAT A
> REVELATION. It was not my grip, my stroke, my left hand low, my
> technique - -NUTTIN other than moving my head/swing center.
>
> Now the cup is twice as big.
> I do mean YEARS of making the mistake and never picking up on it.
Interesting you should mention this, George.
Right after I sent my rather facetious rek about Dave becoming a head
case (I was only kidding), I thought it was quite likely that his problem
could be tied to nothing more complicated than that he's moving over the
ball.
I can't think of any other reason why virtually all stroke variations seem
to produce unpredictable results with the exception of the one very
unorthodox method he's found.
It seems that when he uses this left-hand low claw grip with the long
putter, which forces him to sort of pull his left forearm (and elbow) down
the line in the throughstroke, it seems to produce better results. There
might be a logical explanation for this. It seems plausible to me that this
method forces him to unconsciously remain very still over the ball in order
for his left forearm to maintain its alignment with his target as he pulls
the putterhead through the ball.
David: I wonder if you've shot any video of yourself putting with more
"ordinary" methods. I'd bet that you're just moving over the ball. It may
be imperceptible to you as you're standing over the ball (especially if
you've done it for a long time). But if you film yourself against a
backdrop of objects that remain in one place, you might detect some movement
you didn't realize was there.
Just a thought.
Randy
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Date: 20 Mar 2007 04:52:08
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message
news:BdadnS3n5uZ10mLYnZ2dnUVZ_qCmnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "George Hibbard" <gh@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> news:O3bLh.18539$Wc.7175@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> > Dave: after years of frustration because I was missing short putts left,
> > someone I was playing with noticed that I was moving my sternum/head to
> > the left during the stroke: it was imperceptible to me, but WHAT A
> > REVELATION. It was not my grip, my stroke, my left hand low, my
> > technique - -NUTTIN other than moving my head/swing center.
> >
> > Now the cup is twice as big.
> > I do mean YEARS of making the mistake and never picking up on it.
>
>
>
> Interesting you should mention this, George.
>
> Right after I sent my rather facetious rek about Dave becoming a head
> case (I was only kidding), I thought it was quite likely that his problem
> could be tied to nothing more complicated than that he's moving over the
> ball.
>
> I can't think of any other reason why virtually all stroke variations seem
> to produce unpredictable results with the exception of the one very
> unorthodox method he's found.
>
> It seems that when he uses this left-hand low claw grip with the long
> putter, which forces him to sort of pull his left forearm (and elbow) down
> the line in the throughstroke, it seems to produce better results. There
> might be a logical explanation for this. It seems plausible to me that
this
> method forces him to unconsciously remain very still over the ball in
order
> for his left forearm to maintain its alignment with his target as he pulls
> the putterhead through the ball.
>
> David: I wonder if you've shot any video of yourself putting with more
> "ordinary" methods. I'd bet that you're just moving over the ball. It
may
> be imperceptible to you as you're standing over the ball (especially if
> you've done it for a long time). But if you film yourself against a
> backdrop of objects that remain in one place, you might detect some
movement
> you didn't realize was there.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Randy
>
Randy, I have shot video of my putting but it has been a while. Can't hurt.
I just seem to have a great deal of trouble getting my right arm across my
body without shutting down the club (or badly overcompensating in an attempt
not to). Everything that I try ultimately seems unnatural. Using a Crenshaw
type "barn door stroke" has not been effective either. But maybe I should
work more on this.
When I was young (and not a particularly good putter - not sure if I am
better or worse now as it was a long time ago on very different greens), I
putted with a wide open stance and my right arm pretty much dominated the
stroke. In fact it was basically a "bowling stroke" where the right arm kind
of swings freely from the shoulder socket and the left arm has little to no
role. I don't even know if the putterface stayed square or not - it was too
long ago.
If I had to bet on what was ultimately going to work best for me, my guess
would be this bowling-type basic stroke with a long putter on lag putts and
my oddball upside-down claw on the short ones.
dave
ps. FWIW, I'm convinced that my proprioceptive senses are somehow lacking in
some areas. I can't exactly use the Dave Pelz shortgame clock with my wedges
because what feels like 9:00 is really more like 10:30. Similarly when I
make a short putt stroke I have to look at the club at the finish to see if
it is pointed left, right, or stayed square like it should (short ones
only). I just can't tell. But I seem to be able to fire my left elbow at the
target and actually feel what went wrong (which I mostly can't do with a
conventional stroke).
But there is a lot of work to do on that stroke (and its kind of opposite
lag stroke) if it is ever going to see the course in a stipulated round.
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Date: 21 Mar 2007 00:41:12
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote
>
> I just seem to have a great deal of trouble getting my right arm across my
> body without shutting down the club (or badly overcompensating in an
> attempt
> not to).
This tells me you are controlling the putter too much with your right hand.
I strongly recommend you do this:
Go buy a Momentus (heavy) putter. Better yet, buy TWO of them (I'm not
kidding). One is heavy, but two, when tied together to form one
"double-wide" putter, are REALLY heavy. And that's what you need to work
this problem out.
My friend, former PGA TOUR player Greg Powers hipped me to this drill. And
I can't recommend it strong enough. It is GREAT...
Take TWO Momentus putters and tape them together (with electrical tape or
duct tape or something) so they're basically "double wide." When properly
configured, you'll have the face of one putter "spooning" the back of the
other putter, and the two grips side-by-side so they're twice as wide.
Tape them securely together around the hosel, in a couple of places along
the shaft, and at the top and bottom of the grip. Get 'em good and snug.
Now, take this anchor-weighted double-wide putter out to a very large
practice green and drop a few balls at one end of the green. If the green
is oblong, choose one end where you'll have the farthest distance to the
other end of the green. Your first drill is to simply grip the club(s) with
one hand -- just your left hand -- and attempt to putt a ball all the way
off the other side of the green. Don't worry about direction, just putt the
ball off the other end of the green.
Sounds very simple. But as you will quickly discover, it's not so simple.
It took me about fifty tries before I finally figured out the trick.
Through trial and error you will learn that the only way to hit the ball
hard enough with just one hand using this ultra-heavy "double putter" is to
LEAD WITH THE LEFT HAND and to KEEP THE LEFT HAND LEADING DOWN THE LINE and
THROUGH THE BALL.
This drill is the first step to learning left hand control. (It also has
the added benefit of helping to build up muscles in your weaker left hand,
which is good for your all-around golf game.)
Because the putter is so damn heavy, you will have a natural tendency to
allow your left wrist to break down and let the club swing through like a
pendulum. But if you do that, the putter will come UP, you won't strike the
ball squarely, and you'll never get the ball to roll anywhere near the other
end of the green.
My first couple of dozen tries, I only moved the ball about 20 feet. The
other end of the green was easily 100 feet away, so I felt pretty silly.
And this was at the TPC-Sugarloaf, where the greens are lightning fast.
Once you get to where you can putt a ball off the other side of the green
this way again and again, the next step is to practice putting some 8-10
footers this way. Left hand only. Using the double-wide, double-weighted,
double-heavy, double-Momentus putter(s).
When actually attempting to MAKE putts of this length, you'll really have to
keep that putterhead square and the left hand leading through the stroke,
moving DOWN THE LINE, or you'll miss every putt.
I *guarantee* this drill, as awkward as it may feel, will, if you'll stick
with it, ingrain left-hand control, which I *know* will ultimately fix your
problem. Letting the right hand do too much in the stroke is the single
most common error of recreational players and pros alike. It is why so many
professionals have gone to left-hand low and the claw -- to get the right
hand out of the stroke as much as possible.
(By the way, I do *not* recommend using this drill just before a round of
golf, as you will head out to the course afterward and your regular putter
will feel like a flyswatter. So set aside an hour or so sometime when you
might otherwise go to the range for a practice session. Or do it *after* a
round of golf.)
--
Page Two
--
Another method of putting you might consider if you believe getting your
right hand across your body is the source of the problem:
The best putting exhibition I've ever seen in my life was by Greg Norman
during the first three rounds at the '96 Masters. For many years, Norman
was an exceptional putter despite vascillating between two vastly different
styles of putter -- the 8802 (heel shafted) and the Ping Anser 4.
Norman's method of putting is worth examining. It's quite similar,
actually, to the way Tiger and many other modern players putt. Norman stood
very tall over the ball and let his arms just hang down in front of him.
His stroke amounted to nothing more than a rocking of his shoulders.
Really, in the truest sense, a "mini golf swing." And very much in contrast
to the old-skool Nicklaus style of crouching over the ball with one's left
elbow pointing out toward the target.
Regardless of the method, the drills I described above with the heavy putter
are worth doing to get the right hand out of the stroke. The right hand is
the surest killer of a good putting stroke I know.
Randy
> When I was young (and not a particularly good putter - not sure if I am
> better or worse now as it was a long time ago on very different greens), I
> putted with a wide open stance and my right arm pretty much dominated the
> stroke. In fact it was basically a "bowling stroke" where the right arm
> kind
> of swings freely from the shoulder socket and the left arm has little to
> no
> role. I don't even know if the putterface stayed square or not - it was
> too
> long ago.
>
> If I had to bet on what was ultimately going to work best for me, my guess
> would be this bowling-type basic stroke with a long putter on lag putts
> and
> my oddball upside-down claw on the short ones.
>
> dave
>
> ps. FWIW, I'm convinced that my proprioceptive senses are somehow lacking
> in
> some areas. I can't exactly use the Dave Pelz shortgame clock with my
> wedges
> because what feels like 9:00 is really more like 10:30. Similarly when I
> make a short putt stroke I have to look at the club at the finish to see
> if
> it is pointed left, right, or stayed square like it should (short ones
> only). I just can't tell. But I seem to be able to fire my left elbow at
> the
> target and actually feel what went wrong (which I mostly can't do with a
> conventional stroke).
>
> But there is a lot of work to do on that stroke (and its kind of opposite
> lag stroke) if it is ever going to see the course in a stipulated round.
>
>
>
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 21 Mar 2007 14:03:39
From: Mark Myers
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
On Wed, 21 2007 00:41:12 -0400, "R&B" said...
> This tells me you are controlling the putter too much with your right hand.
>
> I strongly recommend you do this:
>
> Go buy a Momentus (heavy) putter. Better yet, buy TWO of them (I'm not
> kidding). One is heavy, but two, when tied together to form one
> "double-wide" putter, are REALLY heavy. And that's what you need to work
> this problem out.
>
> My friend, former PGA TOUR player Greg Powers hipped me to this drill. And
> I can't recommend it strong enough. It is GREAT...
>
> Take TWO Momentus putters and tape them together (with electrical tape or
> duct tape or something) so they're basically "double wide." When properly
> configured, you'll have the face of one putter "spooning" the back of the
> other putter, and the two grips side-by-side so they're twice as wide.
>
> Tape them securely together around the hosel, in a couple of places along
> the shaft, and at the top and bottom of the grip. Get 'em good and snug.
> [snip]
Would this work if you securely taped a brick (or two) to the back of
your normal putter? Or am I missing something?
--
k Myers
usenet2 at mcm2002 dot f9 dot co dot uk
I have all the specs and diagrams at home.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 21 Mar 2007 23:53:29
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"k Myers" <nospam@see.sig > wrote in message
news:MPG.206b3ee5d3b4df819896c5@news.altopia.net...
> On Wed, 21 2007 00:41:12 -0400, "R&B" said...
>> This tells me you are controlling the putter too much with your right
>> hand.
>>
>> I strongly recommend you do this:
>>
>> Go buy a Momentus (heavy) putter. Better yet, buy TWO of them (I'm not
>> kidding). One is heavy, but two, when tied together to form one
>> "double-wide" putter, are REALLY heavy. And that's what you need to work
>> this problem out.
>>
>> My friend, former PGA TOUR player Greg Powers hipped me to this drill.
>> And
>> I can't recommend it strong enough. It is GREAT...
>>
>> Take TWO Momentus putters and tape them together (with electrical tape or
>> duct tape or something) so they're basically "double wide." When
>> properly
>> configured, you'll have the face of one putter "spooning" the back of the
>> other putter, and the two grips side-by-side so they're twice as wide.
>>
>> Tape them securely together around the hosel, in a couple of places
>> along
>> the shaft, and at the top and bottom of the grip. Get 'em good and snug.
>> [snip]
>
> Would this work if you securely taped a brick (or two) to the back of
> your normal putter? Or am I missing something?
Well, it might. I can't say. What the double-wide double-Momentus does is
spread the weight throughout the club. With the Momentus, not only is the
head heavy, but the shaft is heavy, too. By adding the extra weight only
behind the head (by taping bricks to it or whatever), I think it would
produce a different effect.
Randy
|
| | | | | |
Date: 21 Mar 2007 13:21:07
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message
news:B4WdnROcDr3IKp3bnZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote
> >
> > I just seem to have a great deal of trouble getting my right arm across
my
> > body without shutting down the club (or badly overcompensating in an
> > attempt
> > not to).
>
>
> This tells me you are controlling the putter too much with your right
hand.
>
> I strongly recommend you do this:
>
> Go buy a Momentus (heavy) putter. Better yet, buy TWO of them (I'm not
> kidding). One is heavy, but two, when tied together to form one
> "double-wide" putter, are REALLY heavy. And that's what you need to work
> this problem out.
>
> My friend, former PGA TOUR player Greg Powers hipped me to this drill.
And
> I can't recommend it strong enough. It is GREAT...
>
> Take TWO Momentus putters and tape them together (with electrical tape or
> duct tape or something) so they're basically "double wide." When properly
> configured, you'll have the face of one putter "spooning" the back of the
> other putter, and the two grips side-by-side so they're twice as wide.
>
> Tape them securely together around the hosel, in a couple of places along
> the shaft, and at the top and bottom of the grip. Get 'em good and snug.
>
> Now, take this anchor-weighted double-wide putter out to a very large
> practice green and drop a few balls at one end of the green. If the green
> is oblong, choose one end where you'll have the farthest distance to the
> other end of the green. Your first drill is to simply grip the club(s)
with
> one hand -- just your left hand -- and attempt to putt a ball all the way
> off the other side of the green. Don't worry about direction, just putt
the
> ball off the other end of the green.
That is an interesting drill, Randy. But here is "the rest of the story".
Based in part of some other stuff that you have written (plus my own
experience and other stuff that I read) I decided over a year ago that the
right hand was the culprit. I added 80 grams of weight to my putter (a far
cry from a pair of Momentus, I'll admit) and started trying to putt with
only my left hand.
I had always believed that a "shoulder rocking type stroke" was all that was
going to work. And this one handed putt motion had my right shoulder
'dangling'. It just didn't know what to do. So I came up with a new grip
that I call "the real claw".
This is a normal LH grip and with the tip of the index finger of the RH
touching the top of the club. No other part of the RH touches the club -
only the tip of one finger and it is placed on the top of the grip just
below the RH. The only purpose of this is to provide tactile feedback to the
right shoulder so it knows what to do. All those other grips should more
properly be referred to as "the clawS grip" :-)
I spent a lot of time treating this as a 'remove the RH from the stroke'
drill. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I had practiced it so much
that I putted better with this technique, so I've been putting this way for
about 9 months now. I will admit that there are months where I use a
conventional grip on putts longer than 20' and there are months that I use
my claw grip. Actually the two strokes at this point don't feelt much
different to me. But it is always my claw grip on putts inside 20'.
But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left shoulder)
has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me. With only the
tip of the right index finger touching the club, I have to believe that this
is not too much RH in the stroke.
So I am going to give this wierd long putter approach a try. If I were a
betting man I would bet that it ultimately won't be better or worse than I
putt now. But I'm tired of failing to solve my previous problems and the
inevitable new problems that this will bring will be a welcome change.
Thanks for all the effort that you put into the post.
dave
>
> Sounds very simple. But as you will quickly discover, it's not so simple.
>
> It took me about fifty tries before I finally figured out the trick.
>
> Through trial and error you will learn that the only way to hit the ball
> hard enough with just one hand using this ultra-heavy "double putter" is
to
> LEAD WITH THE LEFT HAND and to KEEP THE LEFT HAND LEADING DOWN THE LINE
and
> THROUGH THE BALL.
>
> This drill is the first step to learning left hand control. (It also has
> the added benefit of helping to build up muscles in your weaker left hand,
> which is good for your all-around golf game.)
>
> Because the putter is so damn heavy, you will have a natural tendency to
> allow your left wrist to break down and let the club swing through like a
> pendulum. But if you do that, the putter will come UP, you won't strike
the
> ball squarely, and you'll never get the ball to roll anywhere near the
other
> end of the green.
>
> My first couple of dozen tries, I only moved the ball about 20 feet. The
> other end of the green was easily 100 feet away, so I felt pretty silly.
> And this was at the TPC-Sugarloaf, where the greens are lightning fast.
>
> Once you get to where you can putt a ball off the other side of the green
> this way again and again, the next step is to practice putting some 8-10
> footers this way. Left hand only. Using the double-wide,
double-weighted,
> double-heavy, double-Momentus putter(s).
>
> When actually attempting to MAKE putts of this length, you'll really have
to
> keep that putterhead square and the left hand leading through the stroke,
> moving DOWN THE LINE, or you'll miss every putt.
>
> I *guarantee* this drill, as awkward as it may feel, will, if you'll stick
> with it, ingrain left-hand control, which I *know* will ultimately fix
your
> problem. Letting the right hand do too much in the stroke is the single
> most common error of recreational players and pros alike. It is why so
many
> professionals have gone to left-hand low and the claw -- to get the right
> hand out of the stroke as much as possible.
>
> (By the way, I do *not* recommend using this drill just before a round of
> golf, as you will head out to the course afterward and your regular putter
> will feel like a flyswatter. So set aside an hour or so sometime when you
> might otherwise go to the range for a practice session. Or do it *after*
a
> round of golf.)
>
> --
>
> Page Two
>
> --
>
> Another method of putting you might consider if you believe getting your
> right hand across your body is the source of the problem:
>
> The best putting exhibition I've ever seen in my life was by Greg Norman
> during the first three rounds at the '96 Masters. For many years, Norman
> was an exceptional putter despite vascillating between two vastly
different
> styles of putter -- the 8802 (heel shafted) and the Ping Anser 4.
>
> Norman's method of putting is worth examining. It's quite similar,
> actually, to the way Tiger and many other modern players putt. Norman
stood
> very tall over the ball and let his arms just hang down in front of him.
> His stroke amounted to nothing more than a rocking of his shoulders.
> Really, in the truest sense, a "mini golf swing." And very much in
contrast
> to the old-skool Nicklaus style of crouching over the ball with one's left
> elbow pointing out toward the target.
>
> Regardless of the method, the drills I described above with the heavy
putter
> are worth doing to get the right hand out of the stroke. The right hand
is
> the surest killer of a good putting stroke I know.
>
> Randy
>
>
>
>
> > When I was young (and not a particularly good putter - not sure if I am
> > better or worse now as it was a long time ago on very different greens),
I
> > putted with a wide open stance and my right arm pretty much dominated
the
> > stroke. In fact it was basically a "bowling stroke" where the right arm
> > kind
> > of swings freely from the shoulder socket and the left arm has little to
> > no
> > role. I don't even know if the putterface stayed square or not - it was
> > too
> > long ago.
> >
> > If I had to bet on what was ultimately going to work best for me, my
guess
> > would be this bowling-type basic stroke with a long putter on lag putts
> > and
> > my oddball upside-down claw on the short ones.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > ps. FWIW, I'm convinced that my proprioceptive senses are somehow
lacking
> > in
> > some areas. I can't exactly use the Dave Pelz shortgame clock with my
> > wedges
> > because what feels like 9:00 is really more like 10:30. Similarly when I
> > make a short putt stroke I have to look at the club at the finish to see
> > if
> > it is pointed left, right, or stayed square like it should (short ones
> > only). I just can't tell. But I seem to be able to fire my left elbow at
> > the
> > target and actually feel what went wrong (which I mostly can't do with a
> > conventional stroke).
> >
> > But there is a lot of work to do on that stroke (and its kind of
opposite
> > lag stroke) if it is ever going to see the course in a stipulated round.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 22 Mar 2007 00:17:09
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote
> But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left
> shoulder)
> has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me. With only the
> tip of the right index finger touching the club, I have to believe that
> this
> is not too much RH in the stroke.
Two quick observations and then a few further comments:
1. I take exception with your premise that the triangle (or the right hand)
has to "cross the body" in the throughstroke of a putt. A putting stroke
just isn't that long. Watch the pros. When have you ever seen them allow
their right arm to cross the front of their body on a putt? Even on long
putts? Never. It stays IN FRONT of their body. (It's not like you're
following through with your hands up by your left ear when you putt like you
do on a full swing. And if you are, therin lies your problem. LOL!)
2. Any time someone mentions to that they have the tip of their right index
finger on the club when they're putting, that sends up a red flag for me.
While I know you're describing an unorthodox putting stroke, not the
configuration of your hands in a more "normal" style stroke, I can't help
wondering whether your tendency to place your right index finger on the club
stems from a tendency you might have when putting with a "normal" putting
grip to lay your right index finger on the club and have it pointing more or
less "down" on the grip (or even on the shaft). This is a recipe for
horrible putting, I promise you. Though there have been a few pros putt
this way, it's as rare as seeing a ten-finger grip. Yet I see recreational
players do it ALL THE TIME. It's comfortable, and to those who don't quite
understand the harm that can be cause to the putting stroke by putting the
right hand (and fingers) into a dominant position on the club, it's
counter-intuitive to take their right index finger -- the one finger most
people feel has the most "precision control" and not use it this way.
Couple of questions: When you're putting with what you perceive as a
"normal" putting grip, how do you hold it? With the same Vardon or
interlocking grip you use on full shots? With the right finger pointing
down on the shaft?
I see a lot of recreational players using the same Vardon or interlocking
grip they use on all their other clubs when they're putting. But you never
see pros putt this way. Pros who don't go to one of the more unorthodox
methods, like cross-handed, the claw or some Langer-esque mutation, all use
some variation of the "reverse overlap" grip.
On the off chance that you're not familiar with it, let me explain what it
is. It could be as simple a thing as adopting this grip and you might just
cure all your putting ills. Assuming you're right-handed, place your left
hand on the putter as you normally would, with the left thumb down the flat
front side of your putter grip. Unlike the grip you take for a full swing,
your left hand should feel more "on the side" of the grip (rather than "on
top"). Then lay your right hand in its natural position lower on the grip.
Again, it will feel a little more on the side than in a full swing grip,
with the thumb down the flat front of the putter grip. The biggest
difference between the normal Vardon or interlocking grip and the more
putter-friendly "reverse overlap" is that instead of taking your right
pinkie and laying it between the crease of your left index and middle
fingers (or wrapping it around the left pinkie as you would with an
interlocking grip), you actually reverse the positions by laying your LEFT
index finger on top of the knuckles of the right hand. Most players who use
this method prefer to lay the left index finger between the knuckles of the
right pinkie and ring fingers OR between the right ring and middle fingers.
This allows some freedom of wrist movements. I, however, prefer to keep my
left wrist in a somewhat more controlling position, and therefore prefer the
method of taking my left index finger and pointing it virtually down the the
shaft as it lays across the ends of my right pinkie, ring and middle
fingers. This really helps minimize left wrist breakdown in the
throughstroke. You can still keep your hands and wrists loose enough to
allow for the requisite wrist cock on longer strokes if you want to (and I
do). But on shorter putts, I much prefer this method as it tends to prevent
unexpected hinging.
A simple change to the reverse overlap grip for putting, if you weren't
already using it, is the first thing I'd try before resorting to more exotic
styles of putting.
Believe me, there have been enough pros over the years who've struggled with
putting that I think most every conceivable alternative putting method that
could work under even the strangest circumstance has been tried. If you
haven't seen a single pro doing it, there's probably a reason why.
Randy
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 22 Mar 2007 08:27:26
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
On Thu, 22 2007 00:17:09 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:
>
>On the off chance that you're not familiar with it, let me explain what it
>is. It could be as simple a thing as adopting this grip and you might just
>cure all your putting ills. Assuming you're right-handed, place your left
>hand on the putter as you normally would, with the left thumb down the flat
>front side of your putter grip. Unlike the grip you take for a full swing,
>your left hand should feel more "on the side" of the grip (rather than "on
>top"). Then lay your right hand in its natural position lower on the grip.
>Again, it will feel a little more on the side than in a full swing grip,
>with the thumb down the flat front of the putter grip. The biggest
>difference between the normal Vardon or interlocking grip and the more
>putter-friendly "reverse overlap" is that instead of taking your right
>pinkie and laying it between the crease of your left index and middle
>fingers (or wrapping it around the left pinkie as you would with an
>interlocking grip), you actually reverse the positions by laying your LEFT
>index finger on top of the knuckles of the right hand. Most players who use
>this method prefer to lay the left index finger between the knuckles of the
>right pinkie and ring fingers OR between the right ring and middle fingers.
>This allows some freedom of wrist movements. I, however, prefer to keep my
>left wrist in a somewhat more controlling position, and therefore prefer the
>method of taking my left index finger and pointing it virtually down the the
>shaft as it lays across the ends of my right pinkie, ring and middle
>fingers. This really helps minimize left wrist breakdown in the
>throughstroke. You can still keep your hands and wrists loose enough to
>allow for the requisite wrist cock on longer strokes if you want to (and I
>do). But on shorter putts, I much prefer this method as it tends to prevent
>unexpected hinging.
>
Randy,
While you do have a wonderful way with words, I'm having a hard time
visualizing this. Do you happen to have any pictures you could post?
--
jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 22 Mar 2007 07:09:38
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote in message
news:PuKdnY_1Ap_Znp_bnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote
>
> > But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left
> > shoulder)
> > has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me. With only
the
> > tip of the right index finger touching the club, I have to believe that
> > this
> > is not too much RH in the stroke.
>
>
> Two quick observations and then a few further comments:
>
> 1. I take exception with your premise that the triangle (or the right
hand)
> has to "cross the body" in the throughstroke of a putt. A putting stroke
> just isn't that long. Watch the pros. When have you ever seen them allow
> their right arm to cross the front of their body on a putt? Even on long
> putts? Never. It stays IN FRONT of their body. (It's not like you're
> following through with your hands up by your left ear when you putt like
you
> do on a full swing. And if you are, therin lies your problem. LOL!)
"cross the body' and "in front" of the body are equivalent statements in my
mind. In fact if I had worded it carefully it would have been "cross in
front of my body".
>
> 2. Any time someone mentions to that they have the tip of their right
index
> finger on the club when they're putting, that sends up a red flag for me.
> While I know you're describing an unorthodox putting stroke, not the
> configuration of your hands in a more "normal" style stroke, I can't help
> wondering whether your tendency to place your right index finger on the
club
> stems from a tendency you might have when putting with a "normal" putting
> grip to lay your right index finger on the club and have it pointing more
or
> less "down" on the grip (or even on the shaft). This is a recipe for
> horrible putting, I promise you. Though there have been a few pros putt
> this way, it's as rare as seeing a ten-finger grip. Yet I see
recreational
> players do it ALL THE TIME. It's comfortable, and to those who don't
quite
> understand the harm that can be cause to the putting stroke by putting the
> right hand (and fingers) into a dominant position on the club, it's
> counter-intuitive to take their right index finger -- the one finger most
> people feel has the most "precision control" and not use it this way.
>
> Couple of questions: When you're putting with what you perceive as a
> "normal" putting grip, how do you hold it? With the same Vardon or
> interlocking grip you use on full shots? With the right finger pointing
> down on the shaft?
>
> I see a lot of recreational players using the same Vardon or interlocking
> grip they use on all their other clubs when they're putting. But you
never
> see pros putt this way. Pros who don't go to one of the more unorthodox
> methods, like cross-handed, the claw or some Langer-esque mutation, all
use
> some variation of the "reverse overlap" grip.
>
> On the off chance that you're not familiar with it, let me explain what it
> is. It could be as simple a thing as adopting this grip and you might
just
> cure all your putting ills. Assuming you're right-handed, place your left
> hand on the putter as you normally would, with the left thumb down the
flat
> front side of your putter grip. Unlike the grip you take for a full
swing,
> your left hand should feel more "on the side" of the grip (rather than "on
> top"). Then lay your right hand in its natural position lower on the
grip.
> Again, it will feel a little more on the side than in a full swing grip,
> with the thumb down the flat front of the putter grip. The biggest
> difference between the normal Vardon or interlocking grip and the more
> putter-friendly "reverse overlap" is that instead of taking your right
> pinkie and laying it between the crease of your left index and middle
> fingers (or wrapping it around the left pinkie as you would with an
> interlocking grip), you actually reverse the positions by laying your LEFT
> index finger on top of the knuckles of the right hand. Most players who
use
> this method prefer to lay the left index finger between the knuckles of
the
> right pinkie and ring fingers OR between the right ring and middle
fingers.
> This allows some freedom of wrist movements. I, however, prefer to keep
my
> left wrist in a somewhat more controlling position, and therefore prefer
the
> method of taking my left index finger and pointing it virtually down the
the
> shaft as it lays across the ends of my right pinkie, ring and middle
> fingers. This really helps minimize left wrist breakdown in the
> throughstroke. You can still keep your hands and wrists loose enough to
> allow for the requisite wrist cock on longer strokes if you want to (and I
> do). But on shorter putts, I much prefer this method as it tends to
prevent
> unexpected hinging.
>
> A simple change to the reverse overlap grip for putting, if you weren't
> already using it, is the first thing I'd try before resorting to more
exotic
> styles of putting.
I guess my 'normal stroke' is my own claw.
When I use a conventional grip it is unlike my normal grip in that my palms
tend to face each other. I have used a normal overlap as well as a reverse
overlap. At this point my habit has been toward a normal overlap as 'the
less RH hand the better' is my experience. I recall maybe 4-6 months ago a
realization that this had become a conscious decision as I no longer had a
tendency one way or the other. However I admit that pointing my left index
finger down the shaft is totally new.
>
> Believe me, there have been enough pros over the years who've struggled
with
> putting that I think most every conceivable alternative putting method
that
> could work under even the strangest circumstance has been tried. If you
> haven't seen a single pro doing it, there's probably a reason why.
Simply stated I have done way too many conventional things unsuccessfully. I
"need to fail at this for myself".
Thanks.
dave
>
> Randy
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 21 Mar 2007 23:51:17
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
Let me be real clear. The left-hand-only stroke with the double-weight
Momentus is only a DRILL to ingrain the sense of left-side control (and to
build up muscles in the left hand and wrist). It's not intended as a way to
putt in a round of golf.
Randy
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:7jaMh.129779$_73.75444@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> ""R&B"" <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote in message
> news:B4WdnROcDr3IKp3bnZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> "Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote
>> >
>> > I just seem to have a great deal of trouble getting my right arm across
> my
>> > body without shutting down the club (or badly overcompensating in an
>> > attempt
>> > not to).
>>
>>
>> This tells me you are controlling the putter too much with your right
> hand.
>>
>> I strongly recommend you do this:
>
>>
>> Go buy a Momentus (heavy) putter. Better yet, buy TWO of them (I'm not
>> kidding). One is heavy, but two, when tied together to form one
>> "double-wide" putter, are REALLY heavy. And that's what you need to work
>> this problem out.
>>
>> My friend, former PGA TOUR player Greg Powers hipped me to this drill.
> And
>> I can't recommend it strong enough. It is GREAT...
>>
>> Take TWO Momentus putters and tape them together (with electrical tape or
>> duct tape or something) so they're basically "double wide." When
>> properly
>> configured, you'll have the face of one putter "spooning" the back of the
>> other putter, and the two grips side-by-side so they're twice as wide.
>>
>> Tape them securely together around the hosel, in a couple of places
>> along
>> the shaft, and at the top and bottom of the grip. Get 'em good and snug.
>>
>> Now, take this anchor-weighted double-wide putter out to a very large
>> practice green and drop a few balls at one end of the green. If the
>> green
>> is oblong, choose one end where you'll have the farthest distance to the
>> other end of the green. Your first drill is to simply grip the club(s)
> with
>> one hand -- just your left hand -- and attempt to putt a ball all the way
>> off the other side of the green. Don't worry about direction, just putt
> the
>> ball off the other end of the green.
>
> That is an interesting drill, Randy. But here is "the rest of the story".
>
> Based in part of some other stuff that you have written (plus my own
> experience and other stuff that I read) I decided over a year ago that the
> right hand was the culprit. I added 80 grams of weight to my putter (a far
> cry from a pair of Momentus, I'll admit) and started trying to putt with
> only my left hand.
>
> I had always believed that a "shoulder rocking type stroke" was all that
> was
> going to work. And this one handed putt motion had my right shoulder
> 'dangling'. It just didn't know what to do. So I came up with a new grip
> that I call "the real claw".
>
> This is a normal LH grip and with the tip of the index finger of the RH
> touching the top of the club. No other part of the RH touches the club -
> only the tip of one finger and it is placed on the top of the grip just
> below the RH. The only purpose of this is to provide tactile feedback to
> the
> right shoulder so it knows what to do. All those other grips should more
> properly be referred to as "the clawS grip" :-)
>
> I spent a lot of time treating this as a 'remove the RH from the stroke'
> drill. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I had practiced it so much
> that I putted better with this technique, so I've been putting this way
> for
> about 9 months now. I will admit that there are months where I use a
> conventional grip on putts longer than 20' and there are months that I use
> my claw grip. Actually the two strokes at this point don't feelt much
> different to me. But it is always my claw grip on putts inside 20'.
>
> But the truth is that "the triangle" (hands, right shoulder, left
> shoulder)
> has to cross the body and that seems to be the issue for me. With only the
> tip of the right index finger touching the club, I have to believe that
> this
> is not too much RH in the stroke.
>
> So I am going to give this wierd long putter approach a try. If I were a
> betting man I would bet that it ultimately won't be better or worse than I
> putt now. But I'm tired of failing to solve my previous problems and the
> inevitable new problems that this will bring will be a welcome change.
>
> Thanks for all the effort that you put into the post.
>
> dave
>
>>
>> Sounds very simple. But as you will quickly discover, it's not so
>> simple.
>>
>> It took me about fifty tries before I finally figured out the trick.
>>
>> Through trial and error you will learn that the only way to hit the ball
>> hard enough with just one hand using this ultra-heavy "double putter" is
> to
>> LEAD WITH THE LEFT HAND and to KEEP THE LEFT HAND LEADING DOWN THE LINE
> and
>> THROUGH THE BALL.
>>
>> This drill is the first step to learning left hand control. (It also has
>> the added benefit of helping to build up muscles in your weaker left
>> hand,
>> which is good for your all-around golf game.)
>>
>> Because the putter is so damn heavy, you will have a natural tendency to
>> allow your left wrist to break down and let the club swing through like a
>> pendulum. But if you do that, the putter will come UP, you won't strike
> the
>> ball squarely, and you'll never get the ball to roll anywhere near the
> other
>> end of the green.
>>
>> My first couple of dozen tries, I only moved the ball about 20 feet. The
>> other end of the green was easily 100 feet away, so I felt pretty silly.
>> And this was at the TPC-Sugarloaf, where the greens are lightning fast.
>>
>> Once you get to where you can putt a ball off the other side of the green
>> this way again and again, the next step is to practice putting some 8-10
>> footers this way. Left hand only. Using the double-wide,
> double-weighted,
>> double-heavy, double-Momentus putter(s).
>>
>> When actually attempting to MAKE putts of this length, you'll really have
> to
>> keep that putterhead square and the left hand leading through the stroke,
>> moving DOWN THE LINE, or you'll miss every putt.
>>
>> I *guarantee* this drill, as awkward as it may feel, will, if you'll
>> stick
>> with it, ingrain left-hand control, which I *know* will ultimately fix
> your
>> problem. Letting the right hand do too much in the stroke is the single
>> most common error of recreational players and pros alike. It is why so
> many
>> professionals have gone to left-hand low and the claw -- to get the right
>> hand out of the stroke as much as possible.
>>
>> (By the way, I do *not* recommend using this drill just before a round of
>> golf, as you will head out to the course afterward and your regular
>> putter
>> will feel like a flyswatter. So set aside an hour or so sometime when
>> you
>> might otherwise go to the range for a practice session. Or do it *after*
> a
>> round of golf.)
>>
>> --
>>
>> Page Two
>>
>> --
>>
>> Another method of putting you might consider if you believe getting your
>> right hand across your body is the source of the problem:
>>
>> The best putting exhibition I've ever seen in my life was by Greg Norman
>> during the first three rounds at the '96 Masters. For many years, Norman
>> was an exceptional putter despite vascillating between two vastly
> different
>> styles of putter -- the 8802 (heel shafted) and the Ping Anser 4.
>>
>> Norman's method of putting is worth examining. It's quite similar,
>> actually, to the way Tiger and many other modern players putt. Norman
> stood
>> very tall over the ball and let his arms just hang down in front of him.
>> His stroke amounted to nothing more than a rocking of his shoulders.
>> Really, in the truest sense, a "mini golf swing." And very much in
> contrast
>> to the old-skool Nicklaus style of crouching over the ball with one's
>> left
>> elbow pointing out toward the target.
>>
>> Regardless of the method, the drills I described above with the heavy
> putter
>> are worth doing to get the right hand out of the stroke. The right hand
> is
>> the surest killer of a good putting stroke I know.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > When I was young (and not a particularly good putter - not sure if I am
>> > better or worse now as it was a long time ago on very different
>> > greens),
> I
>> > putted with a wide open stance and my right arm pretty much dominated
> the
>> > stroke. In fact it was basically a "bowling stroke" where the right arm
>> > kind
>> > of swings freely from the shoulder socket and the left arm has little
>> > to
>> > no
>> > role. I don't even know if the putterface stayed square or not - it was
>> > too
>> > long ago.
>> >
>> > If I had to bet on what was ultimately going to work best for me, my
> guess
>> > would be this bowling-type basic stroke with a long putter on lag putts
>> > and
>> > my oddball upside-down claw on the short ones.
>> >
>> > dave
>> >
>> > ps. FWIW, I'm convinced that my proprioceptive senses are somehow
> lacking
>> > in
>> > some areas. I can't exactly use the Dave Pelz shortgame clock with my
>> > wedges
>> > because what feels like 9:00 is really more like 10:30. Similarly when
>> > I
>> > make a short putt stroke I have to look at the club at the finish to
>> > see
>> > if
>> > it is pointed left, right, or stayed square like it should (short ones
>> > only). I just can't tell. But I seem to be able to fire my left elbow
>> > at
>> > the
>> > target and actually feel what went wrong (which I mostly can't do with
>> > a
>> > conventional stroke).
>> >
>> > But there is a lot of work to do on that stroke (and its kind of
> opposite
>> > lag stroke) if it is ever going to see the course in a stipulated
>> > round.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
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| | | | |
Date: 20 Mar 2007 14:25:41
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"Dave Lee" <DaveLeeNC@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote in message
news:YLJLh.14967$Jl.8660@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
snip
> Randy, I have shot video of my putting but it has been a while. Can't
hurt.
>
> I just seem to have a great deal of trouble getting my right arm across my
> body without shutting down the club (or badly overcompensating in an
attempt
> not to). Everything that I try ultimately seems unnatural. Using a
Crenshaw
> type "barn door stroke" has not been effective either. But maybe I should
> work more on this.
>
> When I was young (and not a particularly good putter - not sure if I am
> better or worse now as it was a long time ago on very different greens), I
> putted with a wide open stance and my right arm pretty much dominated the
> stroke. In fact it was basically a "bowling stroke" where the right arm
kind
> of swings freely from the shoulder socket and the left arm has little to
no
> role. I don't even know if the putterface stayed square or not - it was
too
> long ago.
>
> If I had to bet on what was ultimately going to work best for me, my guess
> would be this bowling-type basic stroke with a long putter on lag putts
and
> my oddball upside-down claw on the short ones.
>
> dave
>
> ps. FWIW, I'm convinced that my proprioceptive senses are somehow lacking
in
> some areas. I can't exactly use the Dave Pelz shortgame clock with my
wedges
> because what feels like 9:00 is really more like 10:30. Similarly when I
> make a short putt stroke I have to look at the club at the finish to see
if
> it is pointed left, right, or stayed square like it should (short ones
> only). I just can't tell. But I seem to be able to fire my left elbow at
the
> target and actually feel what went wrong (which I mostly can't do with a
> conventional stroke).
>
> But there is a lot of work to do on that stroke (and its kind of opposite
> lag stroke) if it is ever going to see the course in a stipulated round.
>
As a general comment calling this oddball long putter, LH low, claw grip
stroke "better for me" is purely speculative at this point. I worked on it
for 3 weeks a while back and abandoned it (mostly a lag putt issue).
But I will make this observation. I can take this stroke, line my putter up
along the line of the baseboard in my den with the toe maybe 1/8" from the
baseboard, and make a moderate length stroke that never touches the
baseboard and appears to keep that 1/8" separate constant. I cannot
consistently and confidently do that with any other stroke that I have
tried.
dave
|
| |
Date: 17 Mar 2007 20:41:45
From: Mike Dalecki
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
Dave Lee wrote:
> I've never solved my putting problems, despite a good deal of effort. Quite
> a while ago I bought a used long putter on ebay and spent a number of weeks
> on the practice green with it. Ultimately I decided that it really didn't
> fix anything - in fact didn't honestly seem to change much. But there is a
> "but" here...
>
> One stroke was truly different and promising. It is an interesting
> combination of the claw, long putter, and left hand low. You just take a
> normal long (not belly) putter stance, but clasp the butt end of the putter
> to your chest with your right hand (not left hand). Then hold the putter
> down low with your left, but use a claw type grip instead of a normal grip.
>
> The stroke is basically to fire your left elbow at the target. As weird as
> this sounds I find it VERY easy to maintain a square clubface and 'hit my
> aim line' on short putts using this stroke. I worked pretty seriously on
> this 6 months back, but gave up as I just couldn't every feel comfortable on
> longer putts this way. I never tried it on the course in a "stipulated
> round".
>
> My putting has gone to hell again and I dug my long putter out of the closet
> and interestingly this left hand low/claw grip felt pretty natural even on
> longer putts (hadn't tried it in months). So I may give this another whirl.
>
> You may be probably thinking that this is the most drastic/desperate
> (legal) thing you've ever heard tried. However, a guy that I kinda' know
> showed up on the practice green and he has me beat. He is switching to a
> belly putter and putting left handed.
>
> I think he has me beat.
>
> dave
>
> ps. BTW, on short putts this upside-down claw feels really natural to me. It
> is the only putting style that I have ever tried where I can consistently
> tell when I have pulled or pushed a putt at impact. I would not be surprised
> if I don't end up with a mixed long-putter style of upside-down on short
> ones and more normal on the longer ones. But I'm going to try upside-down
> claw all the way for now.
>
>
Dave, why don't you use different methods depending on the length of the
putt? On your short putts, use the reverse claw method you were
describing. Sounds like it worked pretty well.
On longer putts, line is not as important as distance, so switching to a
different style is reasonable if it allows you to control distance better.
I have a weird sort of sidesaddle/hockey slap shot style of putting.
Very weird. Very good at shorter distances (up to 20 or 25 feet).
Longer than that, I find it hard to control distance effectively, so
I'll often switch to a conventional stance for that. I'm trying to make
the long putt, naturally, but most important is that it leave me a short
second putt if I miss.
As they say, it's not how, it's how many.
Mike
--
Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com
RSG-Wisconsin 2007: June 22-24----Lawsonia!
Website: http://clubdoctor.com/rsgwis2007
|
| | |
Date: 18 Mar 2007 22:32:37
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
On Sat, 17 2007 20:41:45 -0500, Mike Dalecki
<mike@removeclubdoctor.com > wrote:
>Dave, why don't you use different methods depending on the length of the
>putt? On your short putts, use the reverse claw method you were
>describing. Sounds like it worked pretty well.
I use a long putter. I do real, real long putts with the putter to
my side, facing the hole. I still have to look at the ball when I
hit it, but changing style works.
Notah Begay switches sides with his putter depending on how he sees
the break.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Mar 2007 03:26:41
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Desperation on the Putting Green
|
"Mike Dalecki" <mike@removeclubdoctor.com > wrote in message
news:563jn1F26r1l0U1@mid.individual.net...
> Dave Lee wrote:
snip
> Dave, why don't you use different methods depending on the length of the
> putt? On your short putts, use the reverse claw method you were
> describing. Sounds like it worked pretty well.
>
> On longer putts, line is not as important as distance, so switching to a
> different style is reasonable if it allows you to control distance better.
>
> I have a weird sort of sidesaddle/hockey slap shot style of putting.
> Very weird. Very good at shorter distances (up to 20 or 25 feet).
> Longer than that, I find it hard to control distance effectively, so
> I'll often switch to a conventional stance for that. I'm trying to make
> the long putt, naturally, but most important is that it leave me a short
> second putt if I miss.
>
> As they say, it's not how, it's how many.
>
> Mike
snip
Mike, it may well end up there. Right now I don't have any long putting
style that I can lag as "well" (in quotes because that doesn't mean good) as
I can with a short putter. I'm not ready to carry two putters. I actually
would consider that if it would truly enable good putting. But I'm just too
vain (or something) to carry two putters to simply putt poorly instead of
miserably.
dave
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|
