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Date: 05 Feb 2007 15:51:23
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been unable
to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and Asian tours.
While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in the HSBC Match
Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target event, and now in
Dubai.
Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged win
streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of exceptionally
fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium" finishes, but not an
in-a-row streak.
One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak hype,
as it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of superiority.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 07 Feb 2007 05:20:38
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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The Golfweek/Sagarin Performance Index assigns a power rating to all
of the players who have played a combined 11 events on nine worldwide
tours - PGA Tour, PGA European Tour, Nationwide Tour, Japan Golf Tour,
PGA Tour of AustralAsia, Southern Africa Tour, Asian PGA Tour,
European Challenge Tour and the Canadian Tour - over the past 52
weeks.
http://www.golfweekrankings.com/sagarin/
Let me know how many names you see on the list that are European Tour
players but not PGA Tour players.
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Date: 09 Feb 2007 21:17:07
From: David
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On 7 Feb 2007 05:20:38 -0800, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpufan@aol.com > wrote:
>The Golfweek/Sagarin Performance Index assigns a power rating to all
>of the players who have played a combined 11 events on nine worldwide
>tours - PGA Tour, PGA European Tour, Nationwide Tour, Japan Golf Tour,
>PGA Tour of AustralAsia, Southern Africa Tour, Asian PGA Tour,
>European Challenge Tour and the Canadian Tour - over the past 52
>weeks.
>
>http://www.golfweekrankings.com/sagarin/
>
>Let me know how many names you see on the list that are European Tour
>players but not PGA Tour players.
Four of the top 20 are americans. If the rest of the top 20 were to
play exclusively on the european tour, would you then say that the
european tour is the toughest in the world? The fact is, the most
ridiculous statement that I have heard in the past week is that the
nationwide tour is the second toughest tour in the world. The fact of
the matter is, the US PGA tour is the toughest in the world because so
many international players tee it up every week. It did not use to be
that way.
David
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Date: 07 Feb 2007 05:08:50
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On Feb 6, 11:15 pm, Watson deMeneux <Neverm...@server.it > wrote:
> BigPurdueFan wrote:
>
> > Stenson's finishes in 2006 on the PGA tour during Tiger's streak:
> > 13th, 14th, 48th, 31st.
>
> > Your points are invalid. Nice try.
>
> What exactly has Stenson got to do with anything referenced in the
> original post> That had to to with field stengths, not individual
> performances, other than Tiger's of course, and his, strictly as a
> measuring tool. Nice try.
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
When the people who are beating him in overseas tournaments are also
playing on the PGA tour and getting their butts kicked by Tiger, then
it's just variance. Tiger has had a better overall winning percentage
in his career off the PGA tour than on. It has nothing to do with the
tours. There are many more factors (that have already been mentioned)
that explain his "terrible finishes" than that the non-PGA tours are
getting better than the PGA. If that were true, then guys like Henrik,
who play on the European Tour, would also be doing well in the US
against Tiger.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 19:15:14
From: Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On Feb 5, 8:51 am, Watson deMeneux <Neverm...@server.it > wrote:
> Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
> Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
> acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been unable
> to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and Asian tours.
> While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in the HSBC Match
> Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target event, and now in
> Dubai.
Every two years, the euros massacre the americans in the RC. That's
all the proof you need that europe is better.
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Date: 07 Feb 2007 08:19:13
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On 6 Feb 2007 19:15:14 -0800, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<betaxxx@earthlink.net > wrote:
>Every two years, the euros massacre the americans in the RC. That's
>all the proof you need that europe is better.
At team style golf.
Team style golf is a lot of fun to play and watch - but it isn't
common in the U.S. for whatever reason.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 18:56:12
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On Feb 5, 11:34 pm, Watson deMeneux <Neverm...@server.it > wrote:
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Oh I don't know where my mind was. I somehow thought that tournament result
> > comparisons of events that were neither PGA Tour or European Tour events,
> > but had significant participation from the best players in the world
> > regardless of where they played might be useful. Silly me.
>
> > dave
>
> > ps. If 'The Open' is a European Tour event then I stand corrected in
> > advance.
>
> Again..."might be useful" is certainly true, but not in either
> supporting or refuting my first suggestion: that PGA Tour hype
> (conventional wisdom) that it is home to the world's best is misplaced,
> given the record of the undisputed World # 1 against PGA Tour fields vs.
> his record against other tours.
>
> The Open is an R&A event. Obviously, Open money counts on both Euro and
> US tours, but it is not a Euro Tour event per se.
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
Stenson's finishes in 2006 on the PGA tour during Tiger's streak:
13th, 14th, 48th, 31st.
Your points are invalid. Nice try.
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Date: 07 Feb 2007 04:15:34
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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BigPurdueFan wrote:
>
>
> Stenson's finishes in 2006 on the PGA tour during Tiger's streak:
> 13th, 14th, 48th, 31st.
>
> Your points are invalid. Nice try.
>
What exactly has Stenson got to do with anything referenced in the
original post > That had to to with field stengths, not individual
performances, other than Tiger's of course, and his, strictly as a
measuring tool. Nice try.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 05:19:01
From: oconnell@slr.orl.lmco.com
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On Feb 5, 9:47 pm, Watson deMeneux <Neverm...@server.it > wrote:
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
> > Comparative results in the majors would seem to me to be a better way to go
> > after this question. Has this ever been done?
>
> I'm not trying to be bellicose or obtuse, but what does comparative
> records in the majors--none of which is a PGA Tour event--have to do
> with the original posit that the PGA Tour is not the home of the best
> players, given the fact that Tiger wins 7 in a row there, but fares much
> less well against the fields in Euro and Asia?
>
> It's not about Tiger; it's about the PGA Tour.
[snip]
This is always a tough comparison. The US Tour "card" is
probably
the hardest to get, predominately because so many international
players
compete for them. The flip side is there are almost 3 layers of
tournaments
and the "lowest" or easiest layer, where so many folks don't show up,
is probably easier than many tournaments on the Euro tour. If you
look at
the top 10, and top 30, a large number of them are US Tour members.
Flip side is that they rarely all compete on anything but the top most
events. This is partly the inspiration for the whole "FedEx Cup"
schtick.
Your comparison is a bit difficult because you are comparing the
results
of various high profile events, where many players are receiving
appearance
money, with relatively "main stream" events on the US Tour. One could
make
a similar comparison based upon both Sergio's performances, and
Montgomery's and come to almost the exact opposite conclusion.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 01:35:58
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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"Watson deMeneux" <Nevermind@server.it > wrote in message
news:%nIxh.904563$R63.140525@pd7urf1no...
> Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
> Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
> acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been unable
> to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and Asian tours.
> While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in the HSBC Match
> Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target event, and now in
> Dubai.
>
> Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged win
> streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of exceptionally
> fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium" finishes, but not an
> in-a-row streak.
>
> One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak hype,
> as it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of superiority.
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
Comparative results in the majors would seem to me to be a better way to go
after this question. Has this ever been done?
dave
ps. I believe that Tiger's perspective is that the streak has ended.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 02:47:47
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Dave Lee wrote:
>
> Comparative results in the majors would seem to me to be a better way to go
> after this question. Has this ever been done?
>
I'm not trying to be bellicose or obtuse, but what does comparative
records in the majors--none of which is a PGA Tour event--have to do
with the original posit that the PGA Tour is not the home of the best
players, given the fact that Tiger wins 7 in a row there, but fares much
less well against the fields in Euro and Asia?
It's not about Tiger; it's about the PGA Tour.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 02:52:38
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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"Watson deMeneux" <Nevermind@server.it > wrote in message
news:n%Rxh.900528$5R2.545916@pd7urf3no...
> Dave Lee wrote:
>
> >
> > Comparative results in the majors would seem to me to be a better way to
go
> > after this question. Has this ever been done?
> >
>
> I'm not trying to be bellicose or obtuse, but what does comparative
> records in the majors--none of which is a PGA Tour event--have to do
> with the original posit that the PGA Tour is not the home of the best
> players, given the fact that Tiger wins 7 in a row there, but fares much
> less well against the fields in Euro and Asia?
>
> It's not about Tiger; it's about the PGA Tour.
>
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
Oh I don't know where my mind was. I somehow thought that tournament result
comparisons of events that were neither PGA Tour or European Tour events,
but had significant participation from the best players in the world
regardless of where they played might be useful. Silly me.
dave
ps. If 'The Open' is a European Tour event then I stand corrected in
advance.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 04:34:34
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Dave Lee wrote:
>
> Oh I don't know where my mind was. I somehow thought that tournament result
> comparisons of events that were neither PGA Tour or European Tour events,
> but had significant participation from the best players in the world
> regardless of where they played might be useful. Silly me.
>
> dave
>
> ps. If 'The Open' is a European Tour event then I stand corrected in
> advance.
>
>
Again..."might be useful" is certainly true, but not in either
supporting or refuting my first suggestion: that PGA Tour hype
(conventional wisdom) that it is home to the world's best is misplaced,
given the record of the undisputed World # 1 against PGA Tour fields vs.
his record against other tours.
The Open is an R&A event. Obviously, Open money counts on both Euro and
US tours, but it is not a Euro Tour event per se.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 06 Feb 2007 11:55:19
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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"Watson deMeneux" <Nevermind@server.it > wrote in message
news:uzTxh.898016$1T2.385454@pd7urf2no...
> Dave Lee wrote:
> >
> > Oh I don't know where my mind was. I somehow thought that tournament
result
> > comparisons of events that were neither PGA Tour or European Tour
events,
> > but had significant participation from the best players in the world
> > regardless of where they played might be useful. Silly me.
> >
> > dave
> >
> > ps. If 'The Open' is a European Tour event then I stand corrected in
> > advance.
> >
> >
>
> Again..."might be useful" is certainly true, but not in either
> supporting or refuting my first suggestion: that PGA Tour hype
> (conventional wisdom) that it is home to the world's best is misplaced,
> given the record of the undisputed World # 1 against PGA Tour fields vs.
> his record against other tours.
>
> The Open is an R&A event. Obviously, Open money counts on both Euro and
> US tours, but it is not a Euro Tour event per se.
>
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
I guess we could start a Colin Montgomery-based debate here as well :-)
dave
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 16:12:34
From: Manco
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Watson deMeneux wrote:
> Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
> Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
> acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been
> unable to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and
> Asian tours. While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in
> the HSBC Match Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target
> event, and now in Dubai.
>
> Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged
> win streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of
> exceptionally fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium"
> finishes, but not an in-a-row streak.
>
> One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak
> hype, as it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of
> superiority.
You can't... be serious.
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 21:36:00
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Manco wrote:
> Watson deMeneux wrote:
>
>>Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
>>Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
>>acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been
>>unable to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and
>>Asian tours. While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in
>>the HSBC Match Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target
>>event, and now in Dubai.
>>
>>Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged
>>win streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of
>>exceptionally fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium"
>>finishes, but not an in-a-row streak.
>>
>>One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak
>>hype, as it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of
>>superiority.
>
>
> You can't... be serious.
>
>
UPDATE.
My earlier posting was in error in some of its detail. To wit, Tiger
*did* win his own Target tournament just before Christmas. However, the
basic postulate remains correct: The PGA Tour can no longer claim to be
the world's best. Tiger regularly wins events on the PGA Tour (seven in
a row at last count) yet he regularly loses on Euro and Asia tour
events. This suggests the American fields are weaker, not stronger than
on other tours
Tiger is the best golfer on the planet, by a wide gin, yet he cannot
beat fields of European and/or Asian players like he can the Americans.
Perhaps they are not as aware of how they're supposed to crumble when he
makes a couple of birdies on Sunday afternoon.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 14:48:17
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:36:00 GMT, Watson deMeneux
<Nevermind@server.it > wrote:
>My earlier posting was in error in some of its detail. To wit, Tiger
>*did* win his own Target tournament just before Christmas. However, the
>basic postulate remains correct: The PGA Tour can no longer claim to be
>the world's best. Tiger regularly wins events on the PGA Tour (seven in
>a row at last count) yet he regularly loses on Euro and Asia tour
>events. This suggests the American fields are weaker, not stronger than
>on other tours
But other inferences are possible as well:
1. Tiger doesn't have as much killer instinct on foreign venues.
2. Tiger doesn't play as well when he has jet lag. (Does he get
there as early as he does for The Open?)
3. The environment (course design) is different and he hasn't taken
the time to adapt.
Or a mixture of the above.
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 22:25:19
From: Watson deMeneux
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:36:00 GMT, Watson deMeneux
> <Nevermind@server.it> wrote:
>
>
>>My earlier posting was in error in some of its detail. To wit, Tiger
>>*did* win his own Target tournament just before Christmas. However, the
>>basic postulate remains correct: The PGA Tour can no longer claim to be
>>the world's best. Tiger regularly wins events on the PGA Tour (seven in
>>a row at last count) yet he regularly loses on Euro and Asia tour
>>events. This suggests the American fields are weaker, not stronger than
>>on other tours
>
>
> But other inferences are possible as well:
>
> 1. Tiger doesn't have as much killer instinct on foreign venues.
>
> 2. Tiger doesn't play as well when he has jet lag. (Does he get
> there as early as he does for The Open?)
>
> 3. The environment (course design) is different and he hasn't taken
> the time to adapt.
>
> Or a mixture of the above.
Each of these inferences suggests something wrong with Tiger. My thesis
is there's something amiss with the world superiority claimed by the PGA
Tour, and further, that Tiger is just fine, thank you. After all, he's
finishing in the top 3 or so in these various non PGA Tour events.
--
Watson deMeneux
-Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 22:22:19
From: Colin Wilson
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
|
Howard Brazee wrote:
> But other inferences are possible as well:
The only grain of truth in the OP is that the USPGA Tour is not as far
above the other tours in standard as many, particularly Americans,
think. The number of Australians who have won in the USA in the last
three years while failing to win many lesser events in Australia itself
is an indication. Conversely, there is a still a strong correlation
between winning Australian events and going on to win in the USA, so the
home-grown talent pool is strong.
But the feeling here is that the thing the USA is best at is just
throwing mountains of prizemoney.
I think US players generally don't play that well overseas because they
don't travel enough to experience different course environments,
conditions, designs, weather, run, etc. and don't generally leave the
comfort of home. Tiger is the exception, because his overseas record is
actually pretty good.
--
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 11:08:16
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
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Check again and see if he won the Target pre Christmas event in 2006...
"Watson deMeneux" <Nevermind@server.it > wrote in message
news:%nIxh.904563$R63.140525@pd7urf1no...
> Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA Tour.
> He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely acknowledged
> as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been unable to beat the
> supposedley lesser players on the European and Asian tours. While winning
> seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in the HSBC Match Play, two Asian
> events, his own pre-Christmas Target event, and now in Dubai.
>
> Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged win
> streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of exceptionally
> fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium" finishes, but not an
> in-a-row streak.
>
> One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak hype, as
> it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of superiority.
>
> --
> Watson deMeneux
> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
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Date: 05 Feb 2007 11:10:27
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Conclusive proof: PGA Tour is not world's best
|
And just to help you
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/6188595.stm
Seems he beat some pretty big International names...hmmm!
Conclusive?
Bill
"Bill" <bill@home.com > wrote in message
news:ODIxh.43058$Ts.8079@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Check again and see if he won the Target pre Christmas event in 2006...
>
>
>
> "Watson deMeneux" <Nevermind@server.it> wrote in message
> news:%nIxh.904563$R63.140525@pd7urf1no...
>> Tiger Woods, world #1, regularly beats his fellow golfers on the PGA
>> Tour. He's won his last seven tournaments on the US circuit, widely
>> acknowledged as home to the world's finest golfers. Yet he's been unable
>> to beat the supposedley lesser players on the European and Asian tours.
>> While winning seven in a row at home, Tiger's lost in the HSBC Match
>> Play, two Asian events, his own pre-Christmas Target event, and now in
>> Dubai.
>>
>> Perhaps now, hysterical American media will stop hyping this alleged win
>> streak and refer to it as what it really is: a period of exceptionally
>> fine golf, with numerous wins and several "podium" finishes, but not an
>> in-a-row streak.
>>
>> One would expect the PGA Tour itself to discourage the win streak hype,
>> as it provides ample evidence to refute the Tour's claim of superiority.
>>
>> --
>> Watson deMeneux
>> -Say it out loud next time you're in a restaurant.
>
>
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