Biggest choker in the history of golf?

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Date: 10 Mar 2007 23:13:56
From: Manco
Subject: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

Phil or Greg?

Date: 18 Mar 2007 08:26:23
From: Miss Anne Thrope
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

Payne.

A depressurized cabin will do that to ya.

Date: 18 Mar 2007 12:33:33
From: AKA gray asphalt
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

You are desperate for a laugh. Some wannabe comedians are like that. You're
funny but desperate.

"Miss Anne Thrope" <High_Colonic@webtv.net > wrote in message
news:24411-45FD2FEF-574@storefull-3151.bay.webtv.net...
> Payne.
>
> A depressurized cabin will do that to ya.
>

Date: 16 Mar 2007 17:50:30
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 16, 5:16 pm, "Herbert" <humphrey_Herb...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On 12, 7:31 pm, "yudever" <s_kar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com> wrote:
>
> > > Phil or Greg?
>
> > No thread about chokers can be complete without at least a passing
> > mention of Jean Van de Velde. Sure, it was just one major, but his
> > meltdown was supreme!
>
> I tend to cut him some slack on that one. How many poor shots or
> decisions did he really make on 18? His 2-iron second shot (he picked
> a club that would carry over all the trouble) and hit it solid. If it
> doesn't take that crazy bounce off the bleachers back across the
> creek, he wins easy. His 3rd shot was a tough shot from the hay.
> His next was no picnic either, then he got up-and-down from the bunker
> to tie for the playoff.
>
> It's easy to say he should have hit iron off that tee, but remember
> the "right club" is the one you pull and put your trust in.

I've been arguing the same thing. His worst shot was the tee shot,
and he got lucky on that one. The second was solid, but his intent
was to get it over the creek and he got royally screwed on that one.

Date: 16 Mar 2007 14:16:09
From: Herbert
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 7:31 pm, "yudever" <s_kar...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com> wrote:
>
> > Phil or Greg?
>
> No thread about chokers can be complete without at least a passing
> mention of Jean Van de Velde. Sure, it was just one major, but his
> meltdown was supreme!
>

I tend to cut him some slack on that one. How many poor shots or
decisions did he really make on 18? His 2-iron second shot (he picked
a club that would carry over all the trouble) and hit it solid. If it
doesn't take that crazy bounce off the bleachers back across the
creek, he wins easy. His 3rd shot was a tough shot from the hay.
His next was no picnic either, then he got up-and-down from the bunker
to tie for the playoff.

It's easy to say he should have hit iron off that tee, but remember
the "right club" is the one you pull and put your trust in.

Date: 16 Mar 2007 05:12:05
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 16, 12:19 am, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org >
wrote:
> On Thu, 15 2007 21:00:10 -0700, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >"annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:1173942146.931248.129220@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >> On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com> wrote:
>
> >>> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
> >>> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the '97
> >>> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's reks
> >>> since, do you?
>
> >> Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
> >> The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.
>
> >It had to do with Butch's next door neighbor .
>
> Who is........... ???
> --
>
> jvdp
> RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

I'll guess....David Leadbetter?

Date: 15 Mar 2007 10:45:20
From: Mitch
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

k Brooks.

Date: 15 Mar 2007 00:02:26
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com > wrote:
>
> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the '97
> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's reks
> since, do you?

Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.

Date: 15 Mar 2007 21:00:10
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1173942146.931248.129220@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com> wrote:
>>
>> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
>> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the '97
>> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's reks
>> since, do you?
>
> Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
> The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.

It had to do with Butch's next door neighbor .

Date: 16 Mar 2007 00:19:03
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On Thu, 15 2007 21:00:10 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com >
wrote:

>
>"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:1173942146.931248.129220@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
>>> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the '97
>>> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's reks
>>> since, do you?
>>
>> Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
>> The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.
>
>It had to do with Butch's next door neighbor .
>

Who is........... ???
--

jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 16 Mar 2007 05:31:25
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote in message
news:cl6kv2dhi8ahiubnrq4ihcgb268nsdca8u@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 2007 21:00:10 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:1173942146.931248.129220@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
>>>> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the
>>>> '97
>>>> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's
>>>> reks
>>>> since, do you?
>>>
>>> Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
>>> The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.
>>
>>It had to do with Butch's next door neighbor .
>>
>
> Who is........... ???
> --

A long story

Date: 16 Mar 2007 08:39:39
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On Fri, 16 2007 05:31:25 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com >
wrote:

>
>"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message
>news:cl6kv2dhi8ahiubnrq4ihcgb268nsdca8u@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 15 2007 21:00:10 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1173942146.931248.129220@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 14, 1:46 am, "\"R&B\"" <noneofyourbusin...@all.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
>>>>> receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the
>>>>> '97
>>>>> Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's
>>>>> reks
>>>>> since, do you?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and I also think a lot of it had to do with Butch Harmon.
>>>> The Shark was no longer the baddest fish in the sea.
>>>
>>>It had to do with Butch's next door neighbor .
>>>
>>
>> Who is........... ???
>> --
>
>A long story
>

Never heard of him. Was he the guy who climbed up in the tree trying
to play his shot, got attacked by a rabid squirrel and turned into a
weremammal?
--

jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 16 Mar 2007 05:30:35
From: glfnaz
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

Date: 14 Mar 2007 11:52:27
From:
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 14, 1:40 pm, "\"R&B\"" wrote:
> But the question becomes, how many of those
> international wins were against world-class fields?

Ironic, don't ya think??

Date: 13 Mar 2007 16:12:33
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

Fwiw, Greg is a bigger choke for no other reason than that he won only
2 majors in his career. Considered how long he was #1, considering
how dominant he seemed (other than the final rounds of majors),
considering he didn't have to contend against Tiger (like Phil has),
he should've had at least 5 or 6.

Date: 13 Mar 2007 16:10:28
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 11:26 pm, Bobby Knight <bkni...@conramp.net > wrote:
> On 11 2007 22:35:23 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Norman's problem was that he was the most snakebit player in the
> >world.
> >In consecutive Majors he watched Bob Tway hole a bunker shot to beat
> >him and Larry Mize sink a 4,567,884,678 foot chip shot to win The
> >Masters.
>
> Tway was at our club this weekend to watch his son play for the
> Edmond, OK high school team, who won the Denton High School
> Invitational. I didn't see him, but friends did. The kid carried his
> drive into the greenside trap on our 250 yard uphill 18th hole. Didn't
> get up and down, but made par.

What course is that?

Date: 13 Mar 2007 23:29:00
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 13 2007 16:10:28 -0700, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpufan@aol.com >
wrote:

>On 12, 11:26 pm, Bobby Knight <bkni...@conramp.net> wrote:
>> On 11 2007 22:35:23 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Norman's problem was that he was the most snakebit player in the
>> >world.
>> >In consecutive Majors he watched Bob Tway hole a bunker shot to beat
>> >him and Larry Mize sink a 4,567,884,678 foot chip shot to win The
>> >Masters.
>>
>> Tway was at our club this weekend to watch his son play for the
>> Edmond, OK high school team, who won the Denton High School
>> Invitational. I didn't see him, but friends did. The kid carried his
>> drive into the greenside trap on our 250 yard uphill 18th hole. Didn't
>> get up and down, but made par.
>
>What course is that?

Denton Country Club, Denton, TX
___,
\o

Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:04:44
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 8:46 pm, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpu...@aol.com > wrote:

>
> In the case of Greg Norman, he did both. He choked from the first tee
> to the 18th green at the Masters and he choked by hitting a shot that
> was 20 times worse than his bad shots. You don't just blow hit 30
> yards right of the green and call it a "bad shot". He choked

But does that make him a bad person?
Besides, I prefer to think of it as "temporary faulty grip pressure
mechanics."

Date: 12 Mar 2007 17:46:09
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 7:48 pm, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com > wrote:
> On 12, 6:38 pm, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Some people choke more
> > than others. Some choke badly more than others. Some choke more
> > mentally than physically (Hello, Phil). Some don't get in position
> > enough for us to know.
>
> Exactly. Greg and Phil are considered chokers partly because they are
> in the hunt so much. You gotta play good to be called a choker.
> Wasn't it Trevino who said something like, "I just wanna be in a
> position to choke?"
>
> Let's say you and I are paired at the Masters and we are 4 shots
> behind Tiger at the turn on Sunday (yeah, I know it's a stretch, you
> being tied with me, but stay with me here).
>
> You go on a birdie spree on the back-9 while I stink it up.
> Leaving the 17th green you are now 1 stroke ahead of Tiger.
> But you shank the approach and the ball goes behind a big Georgia pine
> and you make bogey to lose by a shot to a fast closing Tiger.
> My question is: "Did you choke or did I choke?"
> I say that I choked by playing so poorly and taking myself out of
> contention. I say you just hit a bad shot at the wrong time.

You don't know. Was it variance or a choke? If I've been busting
pins for the entire back nine and I shank one on the last hole, odds
are it's a choke. Now that choke may not be as bad as yours because
at that point it's infinite pressure and few mortals can handle that
kind of pressure (for example, your Calc example in the Ryder Cup).

In the case of Greg Norman, he did both. He choked from the first tee
to the 18th green at the Masters and he choked by hitting a shot that
was 20 times worse than his bad shots. You don't just blow hit 30
yards right of the green and call it a "bad shot". He choked.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 17:31:26
From: yudever
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

No thread about chokers can be complete without at least a passing
mention of Jean Van de Velde. Sure, it was just one major, but his
meltdown was supreme!

Jean Van de Velde at the 1999 British Open shall never be forgotten!

Sanjiv

Date: 12 Mar 2007 16:48:24
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 6:38 pm, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpu...@aol.com > wrote:

> Some people choke more
> than others. Some choke badly more than others. Some choke more
> mentally than physically (Hello, Phil). Some don't get in position
> enough for us to know.

Exactly. Greg and Phil are considered chokers partly because they are
in the hunt so much. You gotta play good to be called a choker.
Wasn't it Trevino who said something like, "I just wanna be in a
position to choke?"

Let's say you and I are paired at the Masters and we are 4 shots
behind Tiger at the turn on Sunday (yeah, I know it's a stretch, you
being tied with me, but stay with me here).

You go on a birdie spree on the back-9 while I stink it up.
Leaving the 17th green you are now 1 stroke ahead of Tiger.
But you shank the approach and the ball goes behind a big Georgia pine
and you make bogey to lose by a shot to a fast closing Tiger.
My question is: "Did you choke or did I choke?"
I say that I choked by playing so poorly and taking myself out of
contention. I say you just hit a bad shot at the wrong time.

Date: 14 Mar 2007 02:25:37
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote

>
> Let's say you and I are paired at the Masters and we are 4 shots
> behind Tiger at the turn on Sunday (yeah, I know it's a stretch, you
> being tied with me, but stay with me here).
>
> You go on a birdie spree on the back-9 while I stink it up.
> Leaving the 17th green you are now 1 stroke ahead of Tiger.
> But you shank the approach and the ball goes behind a big Georgia pine
> and you make bogey to lose by a shot to a fast closing Tiger.
> My question is: "Did you choke or did I choke?"
> I say that I choked by playing so poorly and taking myself out of
> contention. I say you just hit a bad shot at the wrong time.

I say you can never know for sure which one, or if either one of them, was a
choke without knowing what was going on inside the head of the player. So
you can really only know if YOU choked.

Choking is the act of failing to perform because you were too overwhelmed by
the moment (too nervous) to do what you could otherwise routinely do.

So let's go back to Norman's abysmal 75 on Sunday at the '96 Masters. (It
was a 75, right? Whatever.) On the heels of his stellar performances in
the first three rounds, one could reasonably guess that his over-par
finishing round was a choke. But was it? Did his nerves really get the
best of him that day? Let's not forget this is the same guy who, by that
time, already owned two major championship titles, so and 80 or so other
tournament wins. So it's not like he didn't know what was required to close
the deal. He'd done it many, many times.

I just think he had a perfectly horrific day on the course (it happens to
all of them), and it came at the worst possible time (it happens to all of
them). Then, like all players do when they're having a horrible day, Norman
started to try to adjust on the fly to try to turn things around and make
something positive happen. The minute a player does that, he gets out of
his rhythm, out of his game plan, out of his element. Norman's sense of
urgency was exacerbated by the fact that this was Sunday at Augusta, and he
was playing with a guy (Faldo) who was making birdies while he was giving
strokes away. Pretty soon, his big lead was gone, and he HAD to turn it
around. So then he started pressing. But it all started with a bad day at
the office, which is not necessarily choking. By the time his nerves really
kicked in, it was apparent he hadn't brought the same golf swing to the
course that Sunday as he had the previous three days. It didn't matter how
much he pressed, it wasn't going to end well. That's not choking. That's
stepping into the Twilight Zone and realizing that your dream of winning The
Masters that day was going to succumb to a perfect storm of bringing your
retarded cousin's golf swing to the course on one of the most important days
of your life.

I'd say his 4-iron (5-iron? 6-iron?) into the 18th on Sunday at the '86
Masters was more of a choke. He squeezed the club because he was nervous,
which he later admitted he's prone to doing in pressure situations. That
is, by my definition, a choke.

By the way, it's isn't just MY definition.

You guys who want to make up your own definition for what a choke is ought
to read your freakin' dictionary. Here's what it says in Webster's New
World College Dictionary:

choke - [informal usage] - to be unable to perform efficiently, as in a
sporting event, because of tension, strong emotion, etc.

There. THAT's what choking is.

I suspect a case could be made either way. I remember a quote from Denver
Broncos kicker Jim Turner following the 1977 Super Bowl (Dallas 27, Denver
10) when he said, "We (the Broncos) were thinking about winning. They (the
Cowboys) were thinking about football." I suspect in both '86 after he'd
birdied several holes to get into position and then hit that wild shot on
18, and again in '96 when he took a seemingly insurmountable lead into the
final round, Norman was thinking about winning, not thinking about golf. So
maybe, he was just too excited, and failed to perform. If that's the case
in either situation, it was certainly a choke by Webster's definition of the
word.

Randy

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:05:30
From: MoiMoi
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

In article <1173743304.804469.92060@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
annika1980@aol.com says...
> On 12, 6:38 pm, "BigPurdueFan" <bigpu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Some people choke more
> > than others.

> Let's say you and I are paired at the Masters and we are 4 shots
> behind Tiger at the turn on Sunday (yeah, I know it's a stretch, you
> being tied with me, but stay with me here).

Anni, you are absolutely THE best hoot on THIS tour !

MM

Date: 12 Mar 2007 15:38:25
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 11:52 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com > wrote:
> On 12, 9:43 am, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Nobody cares and very few even know about his 4 birdies. History
> > remembers Greg by the overcooked, airmailed 4 iron approach he hit to
> > lose the tourney.
>
> Well, since it is history we're talking about here we might as well
> get it right.
> It was a pushed 5-iron.
>
> >What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
> >definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
> >chance to win the game."
>
> That's a pretty broad definition and would probably cover everyone who
> has ever lost at anything. I prefer to think of choking as when the
> mind doesn't allow the body to function normally. Greg Norman's 5-
> iron on #18 was just a bad shot. His meltdown over 3 hours in '96,
> however, was the classic choke.

His shot on #18 was a choke. If he just missed the green right, you
could argue it was a poor shot, but it blew that sucker 30 yards right
of the green. He choked it. The final round in '96 was the worst
choke in history, imho. OTOH, his luck was just bad most of the time,
against Mize and Tway for example.

> Remember the Ryder Cup at Kiawah (the "War on the Shore")?
> Calc had Monty 4 down with 4 to play and didn't win. THAT was
> choking!
> When Langer missed the final putt, that wasn't a choke .... he just
> missed the putt.

No argument here.

> Early in his career Tom Watson had the same reputation as a choker
> that Norman still carries. My point is that the "choker" label is
> unfair since everybody has choked in their career at some time or
> another. So either everyone is a choker or nobody is.

That's ridiculous. It isn't black and white. Some people choke more
than others. Some choke badly more than others. Some choke more
mentally than physically (Hello, Phil). Some don't get in position
enough for us to know. Is the choking label overblown? Certainly. If
Norman choked as much as people think, he never would have been #1 for
so long.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 15:31:39
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 10:31 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net > wrote:
> On 12 2007 06:43:23 -0700, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
> >definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
> >chance to win the game."
>
> Which could mean "when a guy's misses happen to be late in the game",
> even though those misses are worth exactly the same as misses a bit
> earlier.
>
> To me, it is only a choke if pressure caused the miss. And measuring
> that is subjective.

Very well said.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 09:53:50
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 12:40 pm, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org >
wrote:
>
> >Norman, like Tiger, had it all.
>
> What about the hot wife?

Norman didn't need a hot wife. He had 50 hot Sheilas in every port.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 09:02:02
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 4:25 am, Chris Bellomy <p...@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:
> :
> : He WAS the greatest player of his generation.
>
> Faldo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Norman.
>
> Ballesteros >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Norman.
>
> To name two.

So says you.

I was there at Augusta that day in 1987 when Norman lost the playoff
to Mize.
Many people forget that Ballesteros was also in that playoff. Guess
who's ass was sent walking back up the 10th fairway first?
Ballesteros, the choker.

Actually, all 3 of those guys were great players and some of my favs.
Norman's record worldwide was superior to the others, but they had the
edge in Majors.
However, I will say this. If all 3 of those guys were playing at
their peak and hitting on all cylinders, Norman wins. At his best,
the Shark was probably second only to Tiger at his best. He was long,
accurate, had a great short game, and could putt. Seve had the short
game, but lacked the accuracy. Faldo had the accuracy, but lacked the
length. Norman, like Tiger, had it all.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 16:38:22
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com > wrote:

: However, I will say this. If all 3 of those guys were playing at
: their peak and hitting on all cylinders, Norman wins. At his best,
: the Shark was probably second only to Tiger at his best. He was long,
: accurate, had a great short game, and could putt. Seve had the short
: game, but lacked the accuracy. Faldo had the accuracy, but lacked the
: length. Norman, like Tiger, had it all.

Yeah, but by those standards, Weiskopf was better than Nicklaus.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/

Date: 14 Mar 2007 01:49:09
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote in message
news:0T3u6kipI3i4N34@redshark.goodshow.net...
> annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com> wrote:
>
> : However, I will say this. If all 3 of those guys were playing at
> : their peak and hitting on all cylinders, Norman wins. At his best,
> : the Shark was probably second only to Tiger at his best. He was long,
> : accurate, had a great short game, and could putt. Seve had the short
> : game, but lacked the accuracy. Faldo had the accuracy, but lacked the
> : length. Norman, like Tiger, had it all.
>
> Yeah, but by those standards, Weiskopf was better than Nicklaus.

Well, that's right.

What Weiskopf lacked against Nicklaus is the same thing Norman lacked at
times (certainly during his '96 meltdown at Augusta). It's the same thing
Mickelson lacks. It's the same thing most all of them who were blessed with
talent have lacked...except Nicklaus and Tiger.

The mind.

Randy

Date: 12 Mar 2007 12:40:14
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12 2007 09:02:02 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com >
wrote:

>Norman, like Tiger, had it all.
>

What about the hot wife?
--

jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 12 Mar 2007 08:52:16
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 9:43 am, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

> Nobody cares and very few even know about his 4 birdies. History
> remembers Greg by the overcooked, airmailed 4 iron approach he hit to
> lose the tourney.

Well, since it is history we're talking about here we might as well
get it right.
It was a pushed 5-iron.

>What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
>definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
>chance to win the game."

That's a pretty broad definition and would probably cover everyone who
has ever lost at anything. I prefer to think of choking as when the
mind doesn't allow the body to function normally. Greg Norman's 5-
iron on #18 was just a bad shot. His meltdown over 3 hours in '96,
however, was the classic choke.

Remember the Ryder Cup at Kiawah (the "War on the Shore")?
Calc had Monty 4 down with 4 to play and didn't win. THAT was
choking!
When Langer missed the final putt, that wasn't a choke .... he just
missed the putt.

Early in his career Tom Watson had the same reputation as a choker
that Norman still carries. My point is that the "choker" label is
unfair since everybody has choked in their career at some time or
another. So either everyone is a choker or nobody is.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 06:55:07
From:
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 12:15 am, "Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS"
<xeton2...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com> wrote in news:UYGIh.659$S06.22
> @trndny08:
>
> > Phil or Greg?
>
> Who owns the record for most second place finishes in the majors? Case
> closed.

You are calling Jack a choker?

Date: 12 Mar 2007 06:43:23
From: gp
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12, 12:35 am, "annika1980" <annika1...@aol.com > wrote:
> On 11, 2:24 pm, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Greg -- hands down. He was touted as the next great player of his
> > generation.
>
> He WAS the greatest player of his generation. He held the record for
> consecutive weeks ranked #1 (96) until Tiger broke it.

Yes, if the sport of golf was based only on #1 ranking, then yes, The
Shark was truly the best of his era.

>
> One bad shot does not a choker make .... otherwise, everyone is a
> choker.
>

What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
chance to win the game."

Nobody cares and very few even know about his 4 birdies. History
remembers Greg by the overcooked, airmailed 4 iron approach he hit to
lose the tourney.

As for his bad luck in the other close calls, for those of you who
believe in fate, perhaps the "gods of golf" and/or maybe even another
"higher power" didn't want Greg to win more majors. Reading the other
thread about Greg's book and what a jerk he is (and it's undisputable
how he's jealous of Tiger based on his past comments), that such is
the fate bestowed on Greg Norman... oh poor, poor multi-
millionaire...my heart goes out to ya. :-)

Date: 14 Mar 2007 02:02:51
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"gp" <gopher70@sbcglobal.net > wrote
>
> What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
> definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
> chance to win the game."

I totally take exception with your definition.

A "choke" is when a player failes to execute for a specific reason --
namely, nerves.

The simple fact is, sometimes players at every level just fail to execute.
Sometimes it happens at the worst possible time.

Perfect example: Nobody calls Norman a choker because he lost the '86
Masters to Nicklaus. But the fact is, he hung a 6-iron (or was it a 4-iron)
out to the right and airmailed it into the gallery to the right of the 18th
green, leaving a very difficult up and down, which he failed to execute. He
missed getting into a playoff with Jack by a single stroke.

That to me was more of a choke than his '96 meltdown. On that Sunday in
April of '96, Norman just had a flat-out miserable day on the golf course,
which, sooner or later, happens to all of them. In this case, it just
happened to come at the worst possible time.

I don't think it was nerves. So I don't think it was a choke.

That said, I will grant you that once he dropped a few shots to par and let
Faldo back in it (and saw that Faldo was having a pretty good day), he
probably started pressing to try to reverse the day's trend. B ut that's
not nerves causing the mistakes, it's simply getting out of your own rhythm,
game plan and everything else. Augusta National is not a good place to
press, especially on a Sunday in April.

> Reading the other thread about Greg's book and
> what a jerk he is (and it's undisputable how he's jealous
> of Tiger based on his past comments), that such is
> the fate bestowed on Greg Norman... oh poor, poor multi-
> millionaire...my heart goes out to ya. :-)

Somehow I doubt he's gonna lose much sleep over you not being a fan.

http://www.usmra.com/photos/norman/index.htm
and
http://www.golfdigest.com/features/index.ssf?/features/gd200411kindred.html

Randy

Date: 12 Mar 2007 08:31:04
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 12 2007 06:43:23 -0700, "gp" <gopher70@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

>What is the definition of "choke" in any sporting event? Here's my
>definition: "When an athlete does not execute when he/she has a
>chance to win the game."

Which could mean "when a guy's misses happen to be late in the game",
even though those misses are worth exactly the same as misses a bit
earlier.

To me, it is only a choke if pressure caused the miss. And measuring
that is subjective.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 06:15:12
From: Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"Manco" <manco_dollars@net2blah.com > wrote in news:UYGIh.659$S06.22
@trndny08:

> Phil or Greg?
>
>
>

Who owns the record for most second place finishes in the majors? Case
closed.

Date: 11 Mar 2007 22:35:23
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 11, 2:24 pm, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:

> Greg -- hands down. He was touted as the next great player of his
> generation.

He WAS the greatest player of his generation. He held the record for
consecutive weeks ranked #1 (96) until Tiger broke it.

Geez, the guy lost the '96 Masters .... big whoop.
I seem to recall him shooting 65 or something to win the Open
Championship. And yeah, he bogied the last hole at Augusta to let
Jack win in '86, but he also birdied 4 holes in a row prior to that.
One bad shot does not a choker make .... otherwise, everyone is a
choker.

Norman's problem was that he was the most snakebit player in the
world.
In consecutive Majors he watched Bob Tway hole a bunker shot to beat
him and Larry Mize sink a 4,567,884,678 foot chip shot to win The
Masters. Then Robert Gamez holes a 7-iron in 1990 to beat him and the
same year David Frost holes a bunker shot on the last hole to beat him
in New Orleans. The guy's got worse luck than Charles Barkely at the
roulette wheel.

Date: 14 Mar 2007 01:46:37
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote ...
> On 11, 2:24 pm, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Greg -- hands down. He was touted as the next great player of his
>> generation.
>
> He WAS the greatest player of his generation. He held the record for
> consecutive weeks ranked #1 (96) until Tiger broke it.

Certainly he was one of the greatest players of his generation. I might
nominate Nick Faldo as the greatest player of that generation, simply
because he won more majors. But Norman was, unquestionably, the winningest
player of his era. 20 PGA TOUR victories, and 68 more International
victories. A fine career by any measure.

> Geez, the guy lost the '96 Masters .... big whoop.

And played, quite possibly, the most flawless golf I've ever seen for three
days at Augusta that year. Unfortunately, they were on Thursday, Friday and
Saturday. I have never -- and I mean NEVER -- seen a more spectacular
display of clutch putting than Norman put on those three days. And his
shotmaking was simply superb.

> I seem to recall him shooting 65 or something to win the Open
> Championship. And yeah, he bogied the last hole at Augusta to let
> Jack win in '86, but he also birdied 4 holes in a row prior to that.
> One bad shot does not a choker make .... otherwise, everyone is a
> choker.
>
> Norman's problem was that he was the most snakebit player in the
> world.
> In consecutive Majors he watched Bob Tway hole a bunker shot to beat
> him and Larry Mize sink a 4,567,884,678 foot chip shot to win The
> Masters. Then Robert Gamez holes a 7-iron in 1990 to beat him and the
> same year David Frost holes a bunker shot on the last hole to beat him
> in New Orleans. The guy's got worse luck than Charles Barkely at the
> roulette wheel.

I totally agree.

He should have won the Masters in '87. If Mize doesn't hole that miracle
shot, I can't fathom him withstanding the pressure against Norman. But of
course, the golfing gods intervened there.

Same thing with Tway in the previous major. Hell, ABC, which was carrying
the PGA that year, thoought so little of the odds of Tway holing out that
nearly missed his winning bunker shot. They were just returning from
commercial when Tway's sand wedge thumped the sand. (Fortunately, they had
his full swing on replay, but it wasn't shown live.)

Norman's biggest failure, no doubt, was in having an awful day on the golf
course on Sunday at the '96 Masters. But it happens.

In hindsight, that '96 Masters signaled a changing of the guard in golf. It
was the last major won by Faldo, who won more majors than any other player
of his era (6). It was the last major in which Norman seriously contended.
And it was the last Masters before some guy named Tiger turned pro.

Professional golf's landscape, which for so many years had centered around
the names Norman, Faldo and Price, would change considerably the following
April when the media and golf fans (and for that matter, the players
themselves) started talking about the new sherrif in town, practically
forgetting completely those old guys who'd been golf's centerpiece for the
previous ten years or so.

You don't suppose the sudden lack of attention Norman found himself
receiving from the minute Tiger made such a splash by closing out the '97
Masters in record fashion has anything to do with some of Greg's reks
since, do you?

Randy

Date: 14 Mar 2007 09:19:35
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On Wed, 14 2007 01:46:37 -0400, "\"R&B\""
<noneofyourbusiness@all.com > wrote:

>Certainly he was one of the greatest players of his generation. I might
>nominate Nick Faldo as the greatest player of that generation, simply
>because he won more majors. But Norman was, unquestionably, the winningest
>player of his era. 20 PGA TOUR victories, and 68 more International
>victories. A fine career by any measure.

Trying to define era and generation. Was Roberto DeVicenzo the best
of his era with 230 tournament wins worldwide?

Date: 14 Mar 2007 13:40:02
From: \R&B\
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message
news:2h4gv2haqr2kcfk04q7a9lju2d7hv55gii@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 14 2007 01:46:37 -0400, "\"R&B\""
> <noneofyourbusiness@all.com> wrote:
>
>>Certainly he was one of the greatest players of his generation. I might
>>nominate Nick Faldo as the greatest player of that generation, simply
>>because he won more majors. But Norman was, unquestionably, the
>>winningest
>>player of his era. 20 PGA TOUR victories, and 68 more International
>>victories. A fine career by any measure.
>
> Trying to define era and generation. Was Roberto DeVicenzo the best
> of his era with 230 tournament wins worldwide?

With that kind of record (and I haven't bothered to verify it, but I'll take
you at your word), he'd have to be one of the best players of his era. But
the question becomes, how many of those international wins were against
world-class fields?

I suspect back in those days, the caliber of play in those international
events wasn't what it is today.

20 of Norman's victories came on the PGA TOUR, and like Tiger today, Norman
never played a full schedule or threatened to win any "ironman" competitions
for most consecutive tournaments entered. Instead, he played around 15-20
events, focusing on the higher-profile events. So, with only a few
exceptions, his wins came against superb fields. And by the time Norman was
around, the caliber of play in those international events had improved
considerably since the days of DeVicenzo.

Randy

Date: 13 Mar 2007 03:26:21
From: Bobby Knight
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 11 2007 22:35:23 -0700, "annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com >
wrote:

>Norman's problem was that he was the most snakebit player in the
>world.
>In consecutive Majors he watched Bob Tway hole a bunker shot to beat
>him and Larry Mize sink a 4,567,884,678 foot chip shot to win The
>Masters.

Tway was at our club this weekend to watch his son play for the
Edmond, OK high school team, who won the Denton High School
Invitational. I didn't see him, but friends did. The kid carried his
drive into the greenside trap on our 250 yard uphill 18th hole. Didn't
get up and down, but made par.
--
___,
\o

Date: 12 Mar 2007 08:25:38
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com > wrote:
: On 11, 2:24 pm, "gp" <gophe...@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
:
: > Greg -- hands down. He was touted as the next great player of his
: > generation.
:
: He WAS the greatest player of his generation.

Faldo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Norman.

Ballesteros >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Norman.

To name two.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/

Date: 11 Mar 2007 20:42:46
From: BigPurdueFan
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

Neither. My dad wins this one.

About 20 years ago he was playing in the 7th flight of the city
championship with his 23 handicap. He breaks 90 in the first three
rounds, which is more time than he's ever broken 90 previously. He
did manage to win his flight by one shot, after holding an 18 shot
lead after three rounds. He quit the game soon after.... (had
something to do with his son having to already give him a shot a hole
at the age of 14).

Date: 12 Mar 2007 01:21:27
From: AKA gray asphalt
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

Lorena Ochoa
But she came back like a what? champ, winner

"BigPurdueFan" <bigpufan@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1173670966.611010.64790@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> On 10, 7:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com> wrote:
>> Phil or Greg?
>
> Neither. My dad wins this one.
>
> About 20 years ago he was playing in the 7th flight of the city
> championship with his 23 handicap. He breaks 90 in the first three
> rounds, which is more time than he's ever broken 90 previously. He
> did manage to win his flight by one shot, after holding an 18 shot
> lead after three rounds. He quit the game soon after.... (had
> something to do with his son having to already give him a shot a hole
> at the age of 14).
>

Date: 11 Mar 2007 19:25:52
From:
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 11, 7:41 pm, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net > wrote:
> On 11 2007 18:36:23 -0700, lobshot...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
> >But Greg was a hell of a lot more fun to watch than Phil.
>
> How so?

I just always had the feeling that something dramatic was going to
happen on Sunday and it would no doubt include Greg. It might have
been good or bad but it would be exciting. Phil is just Phil.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 11:52:35
From: Howard Brazee
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 11 2007 19:25:52 -0700, lobshot694@bellsouth.net wrote:

>> >But Greg was a hell of a lot more fun to watch than Phil.
>>
>> How so?
>
>I just always had the feeling that something dramatic was going to
>happen on Sunday and it would no doubt include Greg. It might have
>been good or bad but it would be exciting. Phil is just Phil.

Phil has both good and bad - he's fascinating when he wins, comes up
short, or screws up.

Date: 11 Mar 2007 18:48:57
From:
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 4:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

Vandevelde

Date: 12 Mar 2007 07:05:55
From: Manco
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

texasgate@gmail.com wrote:
> On 10, 4:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com> wrote:
>> Phil or Greg?
>
> Vandevelde

That guy only had one shot at a major. Phil and Greg have probably blown 10
majors between them.

Date: 11 Mar 2007 11:24:03
From: gp
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 6:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

Greg -- hands down. He was touted as the next great player of his
generation. Phil, of course, does not hold this title. Another guy
does.
Any history written on Greg Norman always mentions his
"underachievement", close calls, and bad luck in the majors.

Here's an excerpt from Wikidedia:

>Despite his huge success on the U.S. PGA Tour and his many wins around the >world, Norman will be forever regarded as an underachiever (given his talents), a >characterization fueled by his myriad near-misses in The Masters, the U.S. Open, >and the PGA Championship. He was equally a victim of his own bad luck and good >luck on the part of his fellow golfers in major championships. He infamously lost a >near-certain PGA Championship in 1986 after Bob Tway holed a greenside bunker >shot (though Norman himself shot a 76 that day), and lost The Masters the following >year in a playoff on an even more miraculous 45-yard chip shot by Larry Mize on the >second play-off hole.

Phil is a shoe-in for the hall-of-fame even if he never wins another
tournament. 2-3 more majors on his resume, and he'll be one of the
top 20 in history. 5-6 majors in the Tiger-era is quite a feat!

Date: 11 Mar 2007 05:17:10
From: Hass
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On 10, 6:13 pm, "Manco" <manco_doll...@net2blah.com > wrote:
> Phil or Greg?

Scott Hoch!

Date: 10 Mar 2007 23:55:28
From: Chris Bellomy
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

Manco <manco_dollars@net2blah.com > wrote:
: Phil or Greg?

Daniel.

--
Chris Bellomy
C-List Charter Member
http://clist.org/

Date: 11 Mar 2007 16:56:28
From: John van der Pflum
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

On Sat, 10 2007 23:55:28 GMT, Chris Bellomy
<puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid > wrote:

>Manco <manco_dollars@net2blah.com> wrote:
>: Phil or Greg?
>
>Daniel.

Amen, brother.

Hell, even Sorenstam kicked his butt.
--

jvdp
RSG Cincinnati July 13-15, 2007
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

Date: 10 Mar 2007 18:39:58
From: Otto
Subject: Re: Biggest choker in the history of golf?

"Manco" <manco_dollars@net2blah.com > wrote in message
news:UYGIh.659$S06.22@trndny08...
> Phil or Greg?

Greg.

He never came back

Phil still has a chance to come back.

Otto