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Main Date: 06 Feb 2007 10:26:02 From: larry Subject: Ball position in our stance I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play the ball with various clubs. It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle lowpoint. So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. Larry   Date: 11 Feb 2007 19:13:00 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Alan Baker On Feb 11, 3:19 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com > wrote: > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> snipped other stuff > > >>http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html > > >> JJVP- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? > > It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like > > the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see > > that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and > > at impact. > > I have captured a 6 image sequence of clubhead into impact and > posted it on my website: > > http://pages.infinit.net/garyc/ > > Interesting. My vote is angle of attack +.01deg between image 2 and > 3.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - That's what I thought I saw, Thanks for taking the screenshots.   Date: 11 Feb 2007 10:21:15 From: Miss Anne Thrope Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance There were balls on Larry's chin just before he penned this.   Date: 11 Feb 2007 06:53:53 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 10, 3:56 pm, greg <g...@localhost.localdomain > wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, Birdie Bill wrote: > > > I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > > a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > > I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > > I'd like to see that, myself. > > Just watched the Biz Hub slow motion of Phil Michelson off the tee at the > Pebble Beach Pro Am and his clubhead was descending at impact. I missed it, but I'll take your word for it. Maybe I'll watch some of it today to see if they show it again. I've seen a swing sequence of a pro flipping his wrists before impact, too. Doesn't mean it is what the pros do most of the time.     Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:32:58 From: David Laville Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On 11 Feb 2007 06:53:53 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 10, 3:56 pm, greg <g...@localhost.localdomain> wrote: >> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, Birdie Bill wrote: >> >> > I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >> > a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >> > I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >> > I'd like to see that, myself. >> >> Just watched the Biz Hub slow motion of Phil Michelson off the tee at the >> Pebble Beach Pro Am and his clubhead was descending at impact. > >I missed it, but I'll take your word for it. Maybe I'll watch some of >it >today to see if they show it again. I've seen a swing sequence of >a pro flipping his wrists before impact, too. Doesn't mean it is what >the >pros do most of the time. Hitting the ball on the upswing with it teed behind your left shoulder is an option but it does require a bending of the left wrist. If you study the swings of the top pros who have been around a while you'll notice they comply with the physics and geometry of the swing better than the other players. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982       Date: 16 Feb 2007 21:36:36 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 16, 9:41 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net > wrote: > On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:09:31 -0500, "GaryC_47" > > <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >It's a driver. Unfortunately the quality of the video available on > >youtube is really bad and it's impossible to see the clubhead in > >individual frames. > > This is a case where looking through magazines might help. The > fold-outs showing players swinging usually show the bottom of the > swing. These videos also usually have frames right at impact, but the clubhead travels quite a distance in 1/60th of a second at 120 mph. Unless you are looking at swings captured with a super high speed camera, like the Tiger Nike swing, you won't see what is happening an inch before and after impact.   Date: 11 Feb 2007 06:46:53 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Alan Baker On Feb 11, 12:02 am, "JJVP" <jjv...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Feb 9, 7:45 pm, David Laville <dlavi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 GMT, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> > > wrote: > > > >> It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top > > >> through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around > > >> your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your > > >> left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your > > >> left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With > > >> the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it > > >> while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball > > >> forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. > > > >> Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left > > >> shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the > > >> downswing. > > > >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. > > > Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the > > #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I > > described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves > > me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind > > your bold claim. > > > Name it champ, I'll match it. > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > TB-8982 > > http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html > > JJVP- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and at impact.     Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:32:39 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Alan Baker On 11 Feb 2007 06:46:53 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >> http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html >Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? >It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like >the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see >that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and >at impact. That vid of Tiger makes my point. I was watching a clip of Tiger giving a clinic and he mentioned about hitting his driver slightly on his upswing. I've been arguing that to properly hit the ball on the upswing is to play it outside of your left shoulder. Here we have a slow motion vid of Tiger and low and behold he's playing the ball outside of his left shoulder to hit up on it. The greatest player in the world who everyone says has the greatest swing complies with the geometry of the circle I have been preaching. If people want to keep playing with compensations and making this game harder than it needs to be all the power to them. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982       Date: 12 Feb 2007 06:28:44 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position In article <dervs2h9rrfkcvaunlee97ori1dv0o3gno@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On 11 Feb 2007 06:46:53 -0800, "Birdie Bill" > <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >> http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html > > >Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? > >It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like > >the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see > >that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and > >at impact. > > That vid of Tiger makes my point. I was watching a clip of Tiger > giving a clinic and he mentioned about hitting his driver slightly on > his upswing. I've been arguing that to properly hit the ball on the > upswing is to play it outside of your left shoulder. Here we have a > slow motion vid of Tiger and low and behold he's playing the ball > outside of his left shoulder to hit up on it. The greatest player in > the world who everyone says has the greatest swing complies with the > geometry of the circle I have been preaching. > > If people want to keep playing with compensations and making this game > harder than it needs to be all the power to them. > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 You just lost your own bet. You said he *wasn't* hitting it on the upswing and now you've changed your tune... -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.     Date: 11 Feb 2007 16:19:25 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Alan Baker "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >> snipped other stuff >> >> http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html >> >> JJVP- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? > It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like > the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see > that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and > at impact. > > I have captured a 6 image sequence of clubhead into impact and posted it on my website: http://pages.infinit.net/garyc/ Interesting. My vote is angle of attack +.01deg between image 2 and 3.     Date: 11 Feb 2007 11:44:23 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Alan Baker "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >> >> http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html >> >> JJVP- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Does anyone have a link to a downloadable avi of this swing? > It is hard for me to see at speed, but it sure looks to me like > the clubhead is moving up at impact in this swing. I can see > that the ball is ahead of the left shoulder both at address and > at impact. > > You can control the speed of the video. You need to have javascript enabled and flash, I think. Click on the thumbnail of the ball on the tee (2nd from left) then move the cursor up to the bottom of the large image. A slider will appear (you can also turn the sound & the titles off) and a pause button. Easiest is to move the slider left to just before impact then use the pause button to frame by frame. To my eye he appears to be level to slightly upward at impact. Certainly not down. But we're talking +-1 degree or so. Gary   Date: 10 Feb 2007 22:02:28 From: JJVP Subject: Re: Alan Baker On Feb 9, 7:45 pm, David Laville <dlavi...@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 GMT, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> > wrote: > > >> It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top > >> through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around > >> your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your > >> left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your > >> left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With > >> the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it > >> while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball > >> forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. > > >> Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left > >> shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the > >> downswing. > > >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. > > Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the > #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I > described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves > me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind > your bold claim. > > Name it champ, I'll match it. > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html JJVP     Date: 11 Feb 2007 07:09:10 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Alan Baker In article <1171173748.616037.67200@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >, "JJVP" <jjvp10@gmail.com > wrote: > On Feb 9, 7:45 pm, David Laville <dlavi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 GMT, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> > > wrote: > > > > >> It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top > > >> through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around > > >> your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your > > >> left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your > > >> left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With > > >> the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it > > >> while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball > > >> forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. > > > > >> Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left > > >> shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the > > >> downswing. > > > > >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. > > > > Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the > > #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I > > described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves > > me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind > > your bold claim. > > > > Name it champ, I'll match it. > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > TB-8982 > > http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html > > JJVP I've seen it, and as I said to David, *one* swing is not necessarily representative of all good swings. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.   Date: 09 Feb 2007 21:24:08 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 9, 10:17 pm, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:Ha8zh.24716$fb2.432844@weber.videotron.net... > > > > > > > > > "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote: > > >> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>> "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> wrote: > > >>>> "larry" <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >>>>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > >>>>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > >>>>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > > >>>>> Larry > > >>>> Absurd thing to say. > >>>> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >>>> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >>>> beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a > >>>> decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >>>> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > > >>> If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing out > >>> on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. > > >>> You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the > >>> optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That > >>> launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph swing. > >>> You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of loft and > >>> angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch monitor come > >>> in. > > >>> So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, > >>> about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your > >>> head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will > >>> reach impact on the upswing. > > >> You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the > >> hands. > >> A weak flip and clubhead deceleration. > >> If you rely on proper mechanics and physics for maximum ball compression > >> you'll ensure that your hands are ahead of the clubhead, you'll sustain > >> lag and the line of compression all the way to aiming point, and you'll > >> have a flat left wrist. > >> If your hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact you can maintain > >> acceleration and the clubhead is still on the downstroke. > >> If the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact, the clubhead is > >> decelerating and on the upstroke. > > > I assume you have some empirical data, other than something you read in > > TGM, to back up your statements? Please share. > > You suggested I need to see a pro for lessons. > Whats your handicap? > Where is your empirical data that says TGM is wrong? > Keep reading Golf Mag ads on your shitter. > You'll find all the answers.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. I'd like to see that, myself.     Date: 10 Feb 2007 13:56:58 From: greg Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, Birdie Bill wrote: > > I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > I'd like to see that, myself. Just watched the Biz Hub slow motion of Phil Michelson off the tee at the Pebble Beach Pro Am and his clubhead was descending at impact.     Date: 10 Feb 2007 12:55:00 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > > >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >I'd like to see that, myself. Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball rise in normal trajectory. Larry       Date: 10 Feb 2007 22:34:31 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:55:00 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that >case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit >down on it Certainly - if the normal driver swing is a up swing, something has to change to hit the ball off the grass. >--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball >rise in normal trajectory. Now we are talking theory - why can't someone have backspin from a level hit? Why can't the ball rise in normal trajectory based upon the loft of the club with a level hit? I've always read that the main reason we are told to hit on a downward swing was to allow us the greatest chance to have a good, solid hit.         Date: 10 Feb 2007 19:26:39 From: David Geesaman Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Howard Brazee wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:55:00 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> > wrote: >> --which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball >> rise in normal trajectory. > > Now we are talking theory - why can't someone have backspin from a > level hit? Why can't the ball rise in normal trajectory based upon > the loft of the club with a level hit? > > I've always read that the main reason we are told to hit on a downward > swing was to allow us the greatest chance to have a good, solid hit. That's correct. Larry is an idiot. Dave       Date: 10 Feb 2007 21:03:22 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > > > >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > >I'd like to see that, myself. > > Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that > case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit > down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball > rise in normal trajectory. > > Larry Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all agreer that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle of the stance.         Date: 10 Feb 2007 19:34:17 From: Head Shot Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Not me wrote: > In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" >> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> >>> >>> I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >>> a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >>> I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >>> I'd like to see that, myself. >> >> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In >> that case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order >> to hit down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make >> the ball rise in normal trajectory. >> >> Larry > > Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all > agreer that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle > of the stance. The value of lllarry's knowledge is about equal to the value of tits on a bull. -- ___________________________________________________________ A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas Jefferson           Date: 10 Feb 2007 18:17:15 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:17 -0500, "Head Shot" <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com > wrote: >Not me wrote: >> In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, >> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >> >>> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" >>> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> >>>> >>>> I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >>>> a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >>>> I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >>>> I'd like to see that, myself. >>> >>> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In >>> that case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order >>> to hit down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make >>> the ball rise in normal trajectory. >>> >>> Larry >> >> Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all >> agreer that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle >> of the stance. > > >The value of lllarry's knowledge is about equal to the value of tits on a >bull. I hope nobody wonders why you morons are discussing things with about 6 people on RSG. Everyone normal has long gone. Now I am too. Larry             Date: 11 Feb 2007 04:53:10 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <m3vss2p7hu535r99n9c4hbmtor8nljaihl@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:17 -0500, "Head Shot" > <HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote: > > >Not me wrote: > >> In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, > >> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> > >>> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" > >>> <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > >>>> > >>>> I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > >>>> a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > >>>> I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > >>>> I'd like to see that, myself. > >>> > >>> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In > >>> that case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order > >>> to hit down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make > >>> the ball rise in normal trajectory. > >>> > >>> Larry > >> > >> Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all > >> agreer that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle > >> of the stance. > > > > > >The value of lllarry's knowledge is about equal to the value of tits on a > >bull. > > I hope nobody wonders why you morons are discussing things with about > 6 people on RSG. Everyone normal has long gone. Now I am too. > > Larry So you keep promising. Any chance you actually mean it this time?             Date: 11 Feb 2007 02:44:44 From: Bobby Knight Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:17:15 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:34:17 -0500, "Head Shot" ><HeadShot@ThePinkMist.com> wrote: >> >>The value of lllarry's knowledge is about equal to the value of tits on a >>bull. > >I hope nobody wonders why you morons are discussing things with about >6 people on RSG. Everyone normal has long gone. Now I am too. > >Larry Promise, or another lie?         Date: 10 Feb 2007 15:21:15 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:03:22 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com > wrote: >In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> >> > >> >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >> >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >> >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >> >I'd like to see that, myself. >> >> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that >> case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit >> down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball >> rise in normal trajectory. >> >> Larry > >Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all agreer >that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle of the >stance. Whatever. And what the top pros do is totally irrelevant to you. My reason for posting here was to help amateurs--and not really good amateurs. I doubt anyone remaining in RSG is better than a 15 handicapper, thus everyone reading this has the ubiquitous high handicapper continuing problem with lagging back, pivoting around their back leg-- and thus their clubhead is always decelerating before impact. they (you) chunk, top, and pull-hook. Such "golfers" would be FAR better off to play the ball off their (your) back foot-- or to simply hit every ball with feet together. THAT is what Tom Watson was politely trying to tell you when he advised high handicappers to move the ball back in their stance. Larry           Date: 11 Feb 2007 04:52:19 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <eekss2l2l98fov4q6mhihal5rrva8eabrd@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:03:22 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: > > >In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, > > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > > > >> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > >> > > >> >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > >> >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > >> >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > >> >I'd like to see that, myself. > >> > >> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that > >> case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit > >> down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball > >> rise in normal trajectory. > >> > >> Larry > > > >Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all agreer > >that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle of the > >stance. > > Whatever. And what the top pros do is totally irrelevant to you. Funny. It wasn't irrelevant one post ago when you were using what the pros did to back up your claim... > > My reason for posting here was to help amateurs--and not really good > amateurs. I doubt anyone remaining in RSG is better than a 15 > handicapper, thus everyone reading this has the ubiquitous high > handicapper continuing problem with lagging back, pivoting around > their back leg-- and thus their clubhead is always decelerating before > impact. they (you) chunk, top, and pull-hook. Such "golfers" would > be FAR better off to play the ball off their (your) back foot-- or to > simply hit every ball with feet together. Funny. You telling everyone a couple of months ago that you should be getting forward aggressively... What will you being telling everyone a couple of months from now? > > THAT is what Tom Watson was politely trying to tell you when he > advised high handicappers to move the ball back in their stance. Tom Watson is not the be-all and end-all of golf swing wisdom. What does that make you, Mr. Changes-his-swing-advice-every-few-weeks?           Date: 10 Feb 2007 16:28:34 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message news:eekss2l2l98fov4q6mhihal5rrva8eabrd@4ax.com... > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:03:22 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: > >>In article <93css2tmja8k2jhci4mqkh0ipeobn3m3l7@4ax.com>, >> larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >> >>> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> >>> > >>> >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >>> >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >>> >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >>> >I'd like to see that, myself. >>> >>> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that >>> case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit >>> down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball >>> rise in normal trajectory. >>> >>> Larry >> >>Good players such as Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia and Nick Price all agreer >>that for normal shots the ball should be forward of the middle of the >>stance. > > Whatever. And what the top pros do is totally irrelevant to you. > > My reason for posting here was to help amateurs--and not really good > amateurs. I doubt anyone remaining in RSG is better than a 15 > handicapper, thus everyone reading this has the ubiquitous high > handicapper continuing problem with lagging back, pivoting around > their back leg-- and thus their clubhead is always decelerating before > impact. they (you) chunk, top, and pull-hook. Such "golfers" would > be FAR better off to play the ball off their (your) back foot-- or to > simply hit every ball with feet together. > > THAT is what Tom Watson was politely trying to tell you when he > advised high handicappers to move the ball back in their stance. > > Larry No he wasn't. He was discussing how to play shots into a wind. But the truth is of no value to liars like you.   Date: 09 Feb 2007 15:19:50 From: Dene Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 9, 2:40 pm, "Head Shot" <HeadS...@ThePinkMist.com > wrote: > Dene wrote: > > Larry is the King of RSG. > > Larry Fudd. Inventor of golf ball dimples and content producer for the Rush > Limbaugh show. All hail Lord Fudd. So you're a fan of Rush. Imagine that. : > -Greg     Date: 09 Feb 2007 19:03:02 From: Head Shot Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Dene wrote: > On Feb 9, 2:40 pm, "Head Shot" <HeadS...@ThePinkMist.com> wrote: >> Dene wrote: >>> Larry is the King of RSG. >> >> Larry Fudd. Inventor of golf ball dimples and content producer for >> the Rush Limbaugh show. All hail Lord Fudd. > > So you're a fan of Rush. > > Imagine that. :> > > -Greg Since I have never listened to his show; I remain optimistic that he is probably ster than Llllarry Fudd.   Date: 09 Feb 2007 14:20:45 From: The_Professor Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 6, 12:26 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly > in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play > the ball with various clubs. > > It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, > especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as > suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play > it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when > they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle > lowpoint. > > So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage > yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! > Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. > You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. > > Larry I think the ball should be on the GROUND. I believe the clubhead should be advancing TOWARDS the ball when it strikes the ball. If you have been trying to play it off theground, forget that! Put it on the ground and enjoy more consistency. If you have the clubhead advancing towards the ball when it strikes the ball, you will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight.     Date: 09 Feb 2007 22:27:11 From: Bobby Knight Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 9 Feb 2007 14:20:45 -0800, "The_Professor" <dbid@att.net > wrote: >On Feb 6, 12:26 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly >> in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play >> the ball with various clubs. >> >> It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, >> especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as >> suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play >> it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when >> they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle >> lowpoint. >> >> So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage >> yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! >> Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. >> You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. >> >> Larry > >I think the ball should be on the GROUND. I believe the clubhead >should be advancing TOWARDS the ball when it strikes the ball. > >If you have been trying to play it off theground, forget that! Put it >on the ground and enjoy more consistency. If you have the clubhead >advancing towards the ball when it strikes the ball, you will get more >crisp contact and straighter ball flight. ROFLMAO! Yo Rob. ___, \o   Date: 09 Feb 2007 13:50:00 From: Dene Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 6, 10:26 am, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly > in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play > the ball with various clubs. > > It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, > especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as > suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play > it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when > they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle > lowpoint. > > So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage > yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! > Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. > You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. > > Larry Wow! He buys some stinky bait, wiggles it a bit, and look at all who bites.... Larry is the King of RSG. -Greg     Date: 09 Feb 2007 17:40:33 From: Head Shot Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Dene wrote: > Larry is the King of RSG. Larry Fudd. Inventor of golf ball dimples and content producer for the Rush Limbaugh show. All hail Lord Fudd.   Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:48:57 From: Scooter Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 12:53 pm, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org > wrote: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:03:38 -0700, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > >"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org> wrote in message > >news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... > >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> > >> wrote: > > >>>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >>>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >>>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating > >>>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >>>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > > >> Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > >> -- > > >> jvdp > > >A clubhead going up is decelerating. > >It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. > >It's slowing down. > >Why would you want to do that? > > Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have > read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the > upswing? > > Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing > down? > -- > > jvdp > Start clearing your calendarshttp://www.rsgcincinnati.com- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I don't know about the acceleration, where the low point really is, or whether the clubhead passes the hands before impact. It hurts my head to think about all that. But during PGA TOUR coverage, when they show those slow motion, close-ups of the pros' drivers making contact with the ball, it sure looks like it's coming up slightly at impact.   Date: 09 Feb 2007 06:34:03 From: JJVP Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 2:53 pm, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org > wrote: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:03:38 -0700, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> > wrote: > > > > > > >"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspa...@bite.org> wrote in message > >news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... > >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glf...@qwesttrash.com> > >> wrote: > > >>>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >>>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >>>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating > >>>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >>>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > > >> Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > >> -- > > >> jvdp > > >A clubhead going up is decelerating. > >It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. > >It's slowing down. > >Why would you want to do that? > > Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have > read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the > upswing? > > Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing > down? > -- > > jvdp > Start clearing your calendarshttp://www.rsgcincinnati.com It looks to me that more on the bottom of the swing, rather than during the upswing. See link: http://www.nike.com/nikegolf/swingportrait/index.html JJVP   Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:39:49 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 7:28 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > >On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: > > >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > >> middle of your stance. " > > >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > > >> Larry > > >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It > >screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the > >golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, > >as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you > >place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the > >downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the > >swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low > >point were there. > > >Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too. > > The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. That's not the point that is being argued right now. Your statement that the low point of the golf swing is the middle of your stance is what is being contested. Why don't you just admit that is obviously an incorrect statement. Or do you just like to argue?     Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:20:34 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 17:39:49 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 8, 7:28 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: >> >> >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the >> >> middle of your stance. " >> >> >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough >> >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. >> >> >> Larry >> >> >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It >> >screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the >> >golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, >> >as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you >> >place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the >> >downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the >> >swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low >> >point were there. >> >> >Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too. >> >> The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. > >That's not the point that is being argued right now. Your statement >that the low point of the golf swing is the middle of your stance >is what is being contested. Why don't you just admit that is >obviously an incorrect statement. Or do you just like to argue? Because it is typical RSG nit-pick and trivia that is not even interesting. It doesn't make any difference. What is important is that we should hit the ball with the clubhead descending in order to impart backspin. Period. However you do that is unimportant-- except that it is easier and you'll be more consistent if you play the ball in the middle of your stance--like the best players in the world do. Larry       Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:34:30 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <f6bps2t0f6iubjagrpvtrgablpgh0d33c9@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 17:39:49 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >On Feb 8, 7:28 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: > >> > >> >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > >> >> middle of your stance. " > >> > >> >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > >> >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > >> > >> >> Larry > >> > >> >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It > >> >screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the > >> >golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, > >> >as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you > >> >place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the > >> >downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the > >> >swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low > >> >point were there. > >> > >> >Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too. > >> > >> The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. > > > >That's not the point that is being argued right now. Your statement > >that the low point of the golf swing is the middle of your stance > >is what is being contested. Why don't you just admit that is > >obviously an incorrect statement. Or do you just like to argue? > > Because it is typical RSG nit-pick and trivia that is not even > interesting. It doesn't make any difference. > > What is important is that we should hit the ball with the clubhead > descending in order to impart backspin. Period. However you do that > is unimportant-- except that it is easier and you'll be more > consistent if you play the ball in the middle of your stance--like the > best players in the world do. > > Larry Except for Ernie Els, Sergio Garcia, and Nick Price. Or in other words: *every* player in Golf Digest who was shown swinging an iron played the ball ahead of the middle of their stance.       Date: 09 Feb 2007 12:37:09 From: Otto Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message news:f6bps2t0f6iubjagrpvtrgablpgh0d33c9@4ax.com... > What is important is that we should hit the ball with the clubhead > descending in order to impart backspin. Period. However you do that > is unimportant-- except that it is easier and you'll be more > consistent if you play the ball in the middle of your stance--like the > best players in the world do. What if you have an uphill lie? Downhill lie? Otto         Date: 09 Feb 2007 16:31:49 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:37:09 -0500, "Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote: > >"larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote in message >news:f6bps2t0f6iubjagrpvtrgablpgh0d33c9@4ax.com... >> What is important is that we should hit the ball with the clubhead >> descending in order to impart backspin. Period. However you do that >> is unimportant-- except that it is easier and you'll be more >> consistent if you play the ball in the middle of your stance--like the >> best players in the world do. > > >What if you have an uphill lie? > >Downhill lie? Watch TGC. You setup with your body aligned with the hill. If an uphill lie, you lean back, if downhill, you lean downhill, so that you make the same swing, same contact, etc. as on level ground. Larry     Date: 08 Feb 2007 20:44:29 From: Head Shot Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Birdie Bill wrote: > Why don't you just admit that is > obviously an incorrect statement. Or do you just like to argue? I see you have solved the mystery that is Elmer Fudd Llllarry. -- ___________________________________________________________ A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. -- Thomas Jefferson   Date: 08 Feb 2007 16:56:32 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: > > "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > middle of your stance. " > > I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > > Larry Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low point were there. Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too.     Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:00:57 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It's not a mistake it's troll bait. Levac the Troll was getting the latest attention so Larry has to throw out some more bait to get the attention back. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982     Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:28:00 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: >> >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the >> middle of your stance. " >> >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. >> >> Larry > >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It >screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the >golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, >as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you >place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the >downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the >swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low >point were there. > >Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too. The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. I saw what I saw, my friend saw it too, he is a 1 handicapper. We were surprised, so we double and triple-checked from all angles and by watching several pros hit several different irons. Since then we have both moved our iron shot ball position back--like the pros do. Just try it for a few dozen shots and see what happens. Larry       Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:01:30 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:28:00 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. I saw >what I saw, my friend saw it too, he is a 1 handicapper. My friend saw them play it forward in their stance and he's a 0 handicapper. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982   Date: 08 Feb 2007 16:42:49 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 11:05 am, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: > > >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books > >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. > >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. > > >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your > >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. > > >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway > >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." > >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they > >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble > >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and > >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros > >> so that we were not making a parallax error. > > >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. > > >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. > >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). > > Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. For some clubs and stance width, it can appear that the ball is in the middle of the stance. But, due to the fact that pros set up with the "reverse K" with the spine angle tilted away from the target, the head will be behind the ball. In ALL cases, for normal swings, the pros keep their head behind the ball until after impact (and then the head is still behind the ball because the ball is gone). Show me one single pro on video that doesn't do this. You can't because there are none. Jim McLean checked this out for hundreds of pros, and never found an exception. Amateurs, on the other hand, get their heads in front of the ball quite often.     Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:23:07 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 16:42:49 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 8, 11:05 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: >> >> >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books >> >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. >> >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. >> >> >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your >> >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. >> >> >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway >> >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." >> >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they >> >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble >> >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and >> >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros >> >> so that we were not making a parallax error. >> >> >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. >> >> >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. >> >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). >> >> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low >> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to >> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >> > >I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. For some clubs and stance >width, it can appear that the ball is in the middle of the stance. >But, >due to the fact that pros set up with the "reverse K" with the spine >angle tilted away from the target, the head will be behind the ball. > >In ALL cases, for normal swings, the pros keep their head behind the >ball until after impact (and then the head is still behind the ball >because >the ball is gone). Show me one single pro on video that doesn't do >this. You can't because there are none. Jim McLean checked this >out for hundreds of pros, and never found an exception. Amateurs, >on the other hand, get their heads in front of the ball quite often. Of course. We should all tilt our upper torso back slightly at address--that helps prevent OTT, helps us start the downswing with a hip "bump, which makes room for the back elbow to return to our side, etc. But playing the ball back instead of off our front foot is quite a big change when you have a grooved swing. I have had to hit hundreds and hundreds of medium and long iron shots to get used to that. But I like the crisp contact and the much straighter ball flight. I don't have to aggressively push off my back foot to get forward before contact. I will keep this. Larry       Date: 09 Feb 2007 07:48:59 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <5sins2lb9ui9p469d9sj0orchf9lboern5@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 16:42:49 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >On Feb 8, 11:05 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: > >> > >> >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books > >> >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. > >> >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. > >> > >> >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your > >> >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. > >> > >> >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway > >> >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." > >> >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they > >> >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble > >> >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and > >> >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros > >> >> so that we were not making a parallax error. > >> > >> >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. > >> > >> >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. > >> >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). > >> > >> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > >> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > >> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > >> > > > >I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. For some clubs and stance > >width, it can appear that the ball is in the middle of the stance. > >But, > >due to the fact that pros set up with the "reverse K" with the spine > >angle tilted away from the target, the head will be behind the ball. > > > >In ALL cases, for normal swings, the pros keep their head behind the > >ball until after impact (and then the head is still behind the ball > >because > >the ball is gone). Show me one single pro on video that doesn't do > >this. You can't because there are none. Jim McLean checked this > >out for hundreds of pros, and never found an exception. Amateurs, > >on the other hand, get their heads in front of the ball quite often. > > Of course. We should all tilt our upper torso back slightly at > address--that helps prevent OTT, helps us start the downswing with a > hip "bump, which makes room for the back elbow to return to our side, > etc. > > But playing the ball back instead of off our front foot is quite a big > change when you have a grooved swing. I have had to hit hundreds and > hundreds of medium and long iron shots to get used to that. But I > like the crisp contact and the much straighter ball flight. I don't > have to aggressively push off my back foot to get forward before > contact. I will keep this. But... Just a little while ago you maintained that getting aggressively forward was an absolute necessity to a good golf swing...   Date: 08 Feb 2007 08:36:29 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: > > >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books > >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. > >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. > > "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your > front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. > > But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway > metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." > They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they > don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble > to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and > behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros > so that we were not making a parallax error. You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder).     Date: 16 Feb 2007 06:12:02 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 15, 8:39 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com > wrote: > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > >> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> > > > These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate > > than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly > > which > > way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based > > on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the > > clubshaft relative to the left arm. > > > If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands > > are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between > > the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full > > extension, > > and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead > > is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. > > But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also > > rising during this time. > > > I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either > > up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing > > I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder > > at impact. > > Examining Herrera's swing path in closer detail, I believe we could > say that he impacts the ball on a ever so slightly downward angle of > attack. Certainly the bottom of the clubhead is below the top of the > ball at the first visible position after impact - just a few pixels > but below never the less. His left shoulder rises almost exactly > the height of the driver face which, depending on the driver, could > be about 55-60 mm. I can't find any statistics on Herrera but I > don't think he is a long hitter. The ball position is well behind > the left shoulder and his left wrist is also beginning to collapse > at impact.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - One other complication is that the left shoulder is not only rising, but it is opening too. The shoulder is moving along a plane about 60 degrees tilted to the horizontal.     Date: 14 Feb 2007 16:54:31 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 14, 5:18 am, "Alan Murphy" <afm...@btinternet.com > wrote: > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:fauAh.38949$1R6.581837@wagner.videotron.net... > > > > > > > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> > > >>> > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that > >>> > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my > >>> > swing > >>> > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the > >>> > ball > >>> > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant > >>> > that > >>> > if the > >>> > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax > >>> > due > >>> > to > >>> > the > >>> > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for > >>> > those > >>> > swings. > > >>> Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their > >>> swings. > > >> go to v1home.com. > >> download the free version > >> download their swing library (also free) > > >> Take a look at: > >> Ben Crane > >> Bobby Lincoln > >> Keith Fergus > >> Grant Waite > >> Eduardo Herrera > > >> These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate > >> than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly > >> which > >> way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based > >> on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the > >> clubshaft relative to the left arm. > > >> If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands > >> are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between > >> the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full > >> extension, > >> and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead > >> is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. > >> But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also > >> rising during this time. > > >> I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either > >> up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing > >> I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder > >> at impact. > > > Thanks. I downloaded the swings. > > > I have added Perry, Crane, Lincoln and Waite to my website. > > > http://pages.videotron.com/garyc/ > > > I'll leave it up to you to decide if anyone of them is defying the > > laws of physics. (Although it appears that Lincoln and Waite are > > both descending blow swingers.) > > > I'm looking for some more long hitters. This is an interesting project. > > Here's a still of Hogan at impact. His left shoulder, hands > and shaft appear in a straightish line and all slightly ahead > of the ball which in this case was towards the middle of > his stance, despite the fact that in TMFOG he states that > on all standard shots he spots the ball half an inch to an > inch inside his left heel. The tee flipped a couple of yards > backwards after this particular shot indicating that the > ball was struck a descending blow. The shot is a still from > the slo-mo sequence of Hogan's swing that Bret posts > occasionally. Perhaps this wasn't a standard shot. > http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/golf-swing-forum/golf-club-release.html > > Alan- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Was that a driver or an iron? I can't tell from the photo.       Date: 15 Feb 2007 09:13:30 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:1171500871.229239.148640@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 14, 5:18 am, "Alan Murphy" <afm...@btinternet.com> wrote: >> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >> news:fauAh.38949$1R6.581837@wagner.videotron.net... >> >> > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> >> >> >>> > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that >> >>> > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my >> >>> > swing >> >>> > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the >> >>> > ball >> >>> > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant >> >>> > that >> >>> > if the >> >>> > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax >> >>> > due >> >>> > to >> >>> > the >> >>> > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for >> >>> > those >> >>> > swings. >> >> >>> Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their >> >>> swings. >> >> >> go to v1home.com. >> >> download the free version >> >> download their swing library (also free) >> >> >> Take a look at: >> >> Ben Crane >> >> Bobby Lincoln >> >> Keith Fergus >> >> Grant Waite >> >> Eduardo Herrera >> >> >> These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate >> >> than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly >> >> which >> >> way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based >> >> on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the >> >> clubshaft relative to the left arm. >> >> >> If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands >> >> are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between >> >> the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full >> >> extension, >> >> and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead >> >> is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. >> >> But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also >> >> rising during this time. >> >> >> I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either >> >> up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing >> >> I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder >> >> at impact. >> >> > Thanks. I downloaded the swings. >> >> > I have added Perry, Crane, Lincoln and Waite to my website. >> >> > http://pages.videotron.com/garyc/ >> >> > I'll leave it up to you to decide if anyone of them is defying the >> > laws of physics. (Although it appears that Lincoln and Waite are >> > both descending blow swingers.) >> >> > I'm looking for some more long hitters. This is an interesting >> > project. >> >> Here's a still of Hogan at impact. His left shoulder, hands >> and shaft appear in a straightish line and all slightly ahead >> of the ball which in this case was towards the middle of >> his stance, despite the fact that in TMFOG he states that >> on all standard shots he spots the ball half an inch to an >> inch inside his left heel. The tee flipped a couple of yards >> backwards after this particular shot indicating that the >> ball was struck a descending blow. The shot is a still from >> the slo-mo sequence of Hogan's swing that Bret posts >> occasionally. Perhaps this wasn't a standard shot. >> http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/golf-swing-forum/golf-club-release.html >> >> Alan- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Was that a driver or an iron? I can't tell from the photo. > Looks like a driver at top of backswing where you get a look at the face. Probably a driver since I've never seen a tee flip backwards from a teed fairway wood. Alan         Date: 15 Feb 2007 22:09:31 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote: > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On Feb 14, 5:18 am, "Alan Murphy" <afm...@btinternet.com> wrote: <snip > >>> >>> Here's a still of Hogan at impact. His left shoulder, hands >>> and shaft appear in a straightish line and all slightly ahead >>> of the ball which in this case was towards the middle of >>> his stance, despite the fact that in TMFOG he states that >>> on all standard shots he spots the ball half an inch to an >>> inch inside his left heel. The tee flipped a couple of yards >>> backwards after this particular shot indicating that the >>> ball was struck a descending blow. The shot is a still from >>> the slo-mo sequence of Hogan's swing that Bret posts >>> occasionally. Perhaps this wasn't a standard shot. >>> http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/golf-swing-forum/golf-club-release.html >>> >>> Alan- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >> Was that a driver or an iron? I can't tell from the photo. >> > Looks like a driver at top of backswing where you > get a look at the face. Probably a driver since I've > never seen a tee flip backwards from a teed fairway > wood. > > Alan > It's a driver. Unfortunately the quality of the video available on youtube is really bad and it's impossible to see the clubhead in individual frames. The ball was close to the middle of the stance. I don't think it's the same sequence that Bret posts. I downloaded that once and there is no ball in that one. It is from the same filming - he's wearing the same clothes and standing in front of the same bushes. The one on youtube has him hitting a ball. At the www.benhogancollection.com website there are some demo videos of him that are pretty good quality and the driver swing shows well in the commercial. What I find really interesting is the disappearance of the TGM advocates from this thread. Or perhaps my news server is not delivering all the news to me?? Gary           Date: 16 Feb 2007 08:41:49 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:09:31 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: >It's a driver. Unfortunately the quality of the video available on >youtube is really bad and it's impossible to see the clubhead in >individual frames. This is a case where looking through magazines might help. The fold-outs showing players swinging usually show the bottom of the swing.     Date: 12 Feb 2007 22:48:29 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com > wrote: > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> > > > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that > > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my > > swing > > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the > > ball > > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant > > that > > if the > > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax due > > to > > the > > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for those > > swings. > > Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their > swings. go to v1home.com. download the free version download their swing library (also free) Take a look at: Ben Crane Bobby Lincoln Keith Fergus Grant Waite Eduardo Herrera These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly which way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the clubshaft relative to the left arm. If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full extension, and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also rising during this time. I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder at impact.       Date: 15 Feb 2007 21:39:29 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: > On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> > wrote: >> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> >> > These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate > than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly > which > way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based > on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the > clubshaft relative to the left arm. > > If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands > are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between > the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full > extension, > and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead > is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. > But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also > rising during this time. > > I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either > up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing > I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder > at impact. Examining Herrera's swing path in closer detail, I believe we could say that he impacts the ball on a ever so slightly downward angle of attack. Certainly the bottom of the clubhead is below the top of the ball at the first visible position after impact - just a few pixels but below never the less. His left shoulder rises almost exactly the height of the driver face which, depending on the driver, could be about 55-60 mm. I can't find any statistics on Herrera but I don't think he is a long hitter. The ball position is well behind the left shoulder and his left wrist is also beginning to collapse at impact.       Date: 13 Feb 2007 21:08:20 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: > On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> > wrote: >> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> >> >> > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that >> > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my >> > swing >> > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the >> > ball >> > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant >> > that >> > if the >> > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax >> > due >> > to >> > the >> > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for >> > those >> > swings. >> >> Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their >> swings. > > go to v1home.com. > download the free version > download their swing library (also free) > > Take a look at: > Ben Crane > Bobby Lincoln > Keith Fergus > Grant Waite > Eduardo Herrera > > These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate > than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly > which > way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based > on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the > clubshaft relative to the left arm. > > If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands > are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between > the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full > extension, > and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead > is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. > But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also > rising during this time. > > I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either > up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing > I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder > at impact. > Thanks. I downloaded the swings. I have added Perry, Crane, Lincoln and Waite to my website. http://pages.videotron.com/garyc/ I'll leave it up to you to decide if anyone of them is defying the laws of physics. (Although it appears that Lincoln and Waite are both descending blow swingers.) I'm looking for some more long hitters. This is an interesting project.         Date: 14 Feb 2007 11:18:34 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:fauAh.38949$1R6.581837@wagner.videotron.net... > > "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On Feb 12, 11:40 pm, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minu...@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >>> "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote> >>> >>> > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that >>> > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my >>> > swing >>> > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the >>> > ball >>> > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant >>> > that >>> > if the >>> > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax >>> > due >>> > to >>> > the >>> > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for >>> > those >>> > swings. >>> >>> Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their >>> swings. >> >> go to v1home.com. >> download the free version >> download their swing library (also free) >> >> Take a look at: >> Ben Crane >> Bobby Lincoln >> Keith Fergus >> Grant Waite >> Eduardo Herrera >> >> These swings are, of course, taken at a much slower frame rate >> than the Tiger Nike swing, so it is not possible to say exactly >> which >> way the club is headed (up or down) except by deduction based >> on where the ball is relative to the shoulder and the angle of the >> clubshaft relative to the left arm. >> >> If you look at the Herrera swing, it does appear that the hands >> are ahead of the ball at impact, and there is an angle between >> the shaft and the left arm. The next 2 frames go to full >> extension, >> and the clubhead is rising, but you can't see what the clubhead >> is doing a couple inches past impact, like in the Tiger swing. >> But it is also interesting to note that the left shoulder is also >> rising during this time. >> >> I don't know. I can't prove that the clubhead is moving either >> up or down just by looking at these swing. The only thing >> I can say is it looks like the ball is behind the left shoulder >> at impact. >> > > Thanks. I downloaded the swings. > > I have added Perry, Crane, Lincoln and Waite to my website. > > http://pages.videotron.com/garyc/ > > I'll leave it up to you to decide if anyone of them is defying the > laws of physics. (Although it appears that Lincoln and Waite are > both descending blow swingers.) > > I'm looking for some more long hitters. This is an interesting project. > Here's a still of Hogan at impact. His left shoulder, hands and shaft appear in a straightish line and all slightly ahead of the ball which in this case was towards the middle of his stance, despite the fact that in TMFOG he states that on all standard shots he spots the ball half an inch to an inch inside his left heel. The tee flipped a couple of yards backwards after this particular shot indicating that the ball was struck a descending blow. The shot is a still from the slo-mo sequence of Hogan's swing that Bret posts occasionally. Perhaps this wasn't a standard shot. http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/golf-swing-forum/golf-club-release.html Alan     Date: 12 Feb 2007 18:02:58 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact On Feb 11, 10:32 pm, David Laville <dlavi...@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On 11 Feb 2007 06:53:53 -0800, "Birdie Bill" > > > > > > <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >On Feb 10, 3:56 pm, greg <g...@localhost.localdomain> wrote: > >> On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, Birdie Bill wrote: > > >> > I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > >> > a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > >> > I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > >> > I'd like to see that, myself. > > >> Just watched the Biz Hub slow motion of Phil Michelson off the tee at the > >> Pebble Beach Pro Am and his clubhead was descending at impact. > > >I missed it, but I'll take your word for it. Maybe I'll watch some of > >it > >today to see if they show it again. I've seen a swing sequence of > >a pro flipping his wrists before impact, too. Doesn't mean it is what > >the > >pros do most of the time. > > Hitting the ball on the upswing with it teed behind your left shoulder > is an option but it does require a bending of the left wrist. If you > study the swings of the top pros who have been around a while you'll > notice they comply with the physics and geometry of the swing better > than the other players. > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I don't know how this applies to anything I wrote, but of course I agree that if you flip it is not a good swing. Perhaps you can show where this discussion was limited to swings where the ball was teed behind the left shoulder. I don't recall that being specified anywhere. For my part, I mentioned that my instructor said that teed balls should be played in front of the left shoulder. That was the fifth post in this thread, if you look it up in google. Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my swing library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the ball is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant that if the ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax due to the camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for those swings. Nevertheless, many pros DO hit the ball with the driver on the upswing without exhibiting a swing flaw.       Date: 13 Feb 2007 00:40:23 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: driver with clubhead descending at impact "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote> > Now, I thought that was common among pros, and we can see that > Tiger did just that in the Nike swing. But looking through my > swing > library, I can see that there are many driver swings where the > ball > is apparantly teed up behind the left shoulder. So, I'll grant > that > if the > ball were really teed there, and it is not a case of parallax due > to > the > camera angle, then the clubhead was probably descending for those > swings. Would you mind naming a few of them. I'm curious to study their swings.     Date: 08 Feb 2007 09:05:40 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: >> >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. >> >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. >> >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros >> so that we were not making a parallax error. > >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. > >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. Larry       Date: 08 Feb 2007 18:10:11 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <00mms2hrqdcajh6ceda4t1p10bbfs47jdh@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: > >> > >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books > >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. > >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. > >> > >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your > >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. > >> > >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway > >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." > >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they > >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble > >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and > >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros > >> so that we were not making a parallax error. > > > >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. > > > >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. > >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). > > Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. But what about the transition, Larry? If you move your weight onto your left side, how can the low point of your swing possibly be in the middle of your stance?       Date: 08 Feb 2007 10:51:41 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message news:00mms2hrqdcajh6ceda4t1p10bbfs47jdh@4ax.com... > Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > > Larry Absurd thing to say. All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver.         Date: 08 Feb 2007 21:27:07 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > > "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its >> low >> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want >> to >> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >> >> Larry > > Absurd thing to say. > All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your > clubhead beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. > Thats a decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing out on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph swing. You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of loft and angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch monitor come in. So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will reach impact on the upswing. If you have an early release there's a good chance the clubhead will pass the hands and you'll hit a short, high, shot. But that doesn't change where you should be teeing the ball. That's a swing flaw, usually starting the downswing only with the hands, that needs to be corrected. (there's probably OTT move as well.) Get some lessons. Gary           Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:01:30 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:27:07 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: >You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the >optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That >launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph >swing. You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of >loft and angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch >monitor come in. Of course, since these are two variables, maybe people hit on the upswing because they don't have sufficient loft on their drivers to have the correct launch angle otherwise.           Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:37:10 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:NZQyh.4581$fb2.129204@weber.videotron.net... > > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >> >> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low >>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to >>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >>> >>> Larry >> >> Absurd thing to say. >> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >> beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >> clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >> > > If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing out > on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. > > You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the > optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That launch > angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph swing. You > want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of loft and angle of > attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch monitor come in. > > So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, > about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your head > behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will reach > impact on the upswing. You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the hands. A weak flip and clubhead deceleration. If you rely on proper mechanics and physics for maximum ball compression you'll ensure that your hands are ahead of the clubhead, you'll sustain lag and the line of compression all the way to aiming point, and you'll have a flat left wrist. If your hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact you can maintain acceleration and the clubhead is still on the downstroke. If the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact, the clubhead is decelerating and on the upstroke. > > If you have an early release there's a good chance the clubhead will pass > the hands and you'll hit a short, high, shot. But that doesn't change > where you should be teeing the ball. That's a swing flaw, usually starting > the downswing only with the hands, that needs to be corrected. (there's > probably OTT move as well.) Get some lessons. > > Gary > >             Date: 09 Feb 2007 19:17:39 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >>> >>> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >>>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after >>>> its low >>>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want >>>> to >>>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >>>> >>>> Larry >>> >>> Absurd thing to say. >>> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your >>> clubhead beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. >>> Thats a decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >>> >> >> If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are >> missing out on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess >> backspin. >> >> You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve >> the optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum >> carry. That launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the >> average 90-95 mph swing. You want to achieve that launch angle >> with a combination of loft and angle of attack. That's where the >> fitting cart and launch monitor come in. >> >> So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and >> high, about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. >> Keep your head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine >> tilt. You will reach impact on the upswing. > > You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has > passed the hands. > A weak flip and clubhead deceleration. > If you rely on proper mechanics and physics for maximum ball > compression you'll ensure that your hands are ahead of the > clubhead, you'll sustain lag and the line of compression all the > way to aiming point, and you'll have a flat left wrist. > If your hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact you can maintain > acceleration and the clubhead is still on the downstroke. > If the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact, the clubhead is > decelerating and on the upstroke. > I assume you have some empirical data, other than something you read in TGM, to back up your statements? Please share.               Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:31:55 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:17:39 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: >I assume you have some empirical data, Brad doesn't use empirical data he uses the everyday laws of force and motion. >other than something you read >in TGM, to back up your statements? Please share. Have you ever read TGM? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 12 Feb 2007 01:57:22 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message news:1crvs2pc2nm1jqhk0fjlcpvob8hbjhrbk6@4ax.com... > On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:17:39 -0500, "GaryC_47" > <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I assume you have some empirical data, > > Brad doesn't use empirical data he uses the everyday laws of force > and > motion. > >>other than something you read >>in TGM, to back up your statements? Please share. > > Have you ever read TGM? > I have it on my bookshelf at the club. I have decided not to read it at this time because I have other priorities and I find it difficult reading. But you seem to have lost track of what Brad said, in response to Larry saying that teed balls should be hit on the upswing, that started all this for me: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Absurd thing to say. All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver." and "You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the hands. A weak flip and clubhead deceleration." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hitting the ball on the upswing is not a myth and it doesn't require throwaway. That was my point.               Date: 09 Feb 2007 21:17:37 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:Ha8zh.24716$fb2.432844@weber.videotron.net... > > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >> >> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >>>>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low >>>>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to >>>>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >>>>> >>>>> Larry >>>> >>>> Absurd thing to say. >>>> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>>> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>>> beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a >>>> decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>>> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >>>> >>> >>> If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing out >>> on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. >>> >>> You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the >>> optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That >>> launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph swing. >>> You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of loft and >>> angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch monitor come >>> in. >>> >>> So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, >>> about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your >>> head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will >>> reach impact on the upswing. >> >> You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the >> hands. >> A weak flip and clubhead deceleration. >> If you rely on proper mechanics and physics for maximum ball compression >> you'll ensure that your hands are ahead of the clubhead, you'll sustain >> lag and the line of compression all the way to aiming point, and you'll >> have a flat left wrist. >> If your hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact you can maintain >> acceleration and the clubhead is still on the downstroke. >> If the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact, the clubhead is >> decelerating and on the upstroke. >> > > I assume you have some empirical data, other than something you read in > TGM, to back up your statements? Please share. You suggested I need to see a pro for lessons. Whats your handicap? Where is your empirical data that says TGM is wrong? Keep reading Golf Mag ads on your shitter. You'll find all the answers.                 Date: 10 Feb 2007 01:59:27 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote:> > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >>> >>> "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >>>>>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after >>>>>> its low >>>>>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you >>>>>> want to >>>>>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. >>>>>> >>>>>> Larry >>>>> >>>>> Absurd thing to say. >>>>> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>>>> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your >>>>> clubhead beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. >>>>> Thats a decelerating clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>>>> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the >>>>> driver. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are >>>> missing out on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess >>>> backspin. >>>> >>>> You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve >>>> the optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum >>>> carry. That launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the >>>> average 90-95 mph swing. You want to achieve that launch angle >>>> with a combination of loft and angle of attack. That's where >>>> the fitting cart and launch monitor come in. >>>> >>>> So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and >>>> high, about half the ball showing above the top of the club >>>> face. Keep your head behind the ball and maintain your rearward >>>> spine tilt. You will reach impact on the upswing. >>> >>> You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has >>> passed the hands. >>> A weak flip and clubhead deceleration. >>> If you rely on proper mechanics and physics for maximum ball >>> compression you'll ensure that your hands are ahead of the >>> clubhead, you'll sustain lag and the line of compression all the >>> way to aiming point, and you'll have a flat left wrist. >>> If your hands are ahead of the clubhead at impact you can >>> maintain acceleration and the clubhead is still on the >>> downstroke. >>> If the clubhead is ahead of the hands at impact, the clubhead is >>> decelerating and on the upstroke. >>> >> >> I assume you have some empirical data, other than something you >> read in TGM, to back up your statements? Please share. > > You suggested I need to see a pro for lessons. OK. What I said was that IF you have an early release, a swing flaw, the clubhead will likely pass the hands at impact and you should take some lessons to correct the swing flaw. You know, the global "you." I did not suggest that YOU should see a pro for lessons since I have never seen you swing. You, on the other hand, have stated emphatically more than once that the *only* way to impact on the upswing is with a "weak flip" and clubhead deceleration. Since I disagree with that I have asked you to share with us the source(s) of your information. > Whats your handicap? I no longer maintain an index but it would be around 7 right now. > Where is your empirical data that says TGM is wrong? I don't recall saying TGM was wrong. I said show me somewhere, other than TGM, that says the driver cannot be hit effectively on the upswing, for whatever reason. I don't know whether or not you got your info from TGM, nor what TGM says about it. I just assumed that you had because of your terminolgy, but I also assumed that you had confirmed what one source said by finding other sources that agreed with it. I guess not. A 5 minute google search will show you hundreds of examples of instructors and players who say to tee the ball up high and forward and hit the ball on a upward angle of attack. At the same time you can find many sources of information explaining how the maximum carry distance for a given ball speed can be achieved, simply put, with a launch angle that is higher than the loft of the driver. I can't find any non-TGM sources that advocate hitting down on a ball that is teed up 2.5" in the air. I base what I said on experience, however. > Keep reading Golf Mag ads on your shitter. > You'll find all the answers. I don't read golf magazines for instruction. You don't know me or anything about me or what I know about the golf swing. I have been civil with you. I don't see how comments like yours contribute to this debate.                   Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:34:00 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:59:27 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: >I don't recall saying TGM was wrong. I said show me somewhere, >other than TGM, that says the driver cannot be hit effectively on >the upswing, for whatever reason. Sure you can hit the ball on the upswing if you play in behind your left shoulder but it requires a compensation by bending the left wrist. Anyone who knows anything about the golf swing knows our goal is uncompensated stroke. > I don't know whether or not you >got your info from TGM, nor what TGM says about it. I just assumed >that you had because of your terminolgy, but I also assumed that you >had confirmed what one source said by finding other sources that >agreed with it. I guess not. There are two sources that agree with Brad, one is physics the other is geometry. >A 5 minute google search will show you hundreds of examples of >instructors and players who say to tee the ball up high and forward >and hit the ball on a upward angle of attack. So in other words your knowledge is based on others opinions and not scientific law or principle. >You don't know me or anything about me or what I know about the golf >swing. We read you post and know what you know about the golf swing. Nothing is grounded in science, just opinion. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                     Date: 12 Feb 2007 02:24:26 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:59:27 -0500, "GaryC_47" > <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>I don't recall saying TGM was wrong. I said show me somewhere, >>other than TGM, that says the driver cannot be hit effectively on >>the upswing, for whatever reason. > > Sure you can hit the ball on the upswing if you play in behind > your > left shoulder but it requires a compensation by bending the left > wrist. Anyone who knows anything about the golf swing knows our > goal > is uncompensated stroke. Don't patronize me. See my other msg about the ball position misunderstanding. > >> I don't know whether or not you >>got your info from TGM, nor what TGM says about it. I just assumed >>that you had because of your terminolgy, but I also assumed that >>you >>had confirmed what one source said by finding other sources that >>agreed with it. I guess not. > > There are two sources that agree with Brad, one is physics the > other > is geometry. Perhaps Brad will come up with something I can read, since the post you have selectively quoted from was addressed to him. > >>A 5 minute google search will show you hundreds of examples of >>instructors and players who say to tee the ball up high and >>forward >>and hit the ball on a upward angle of attack. > > So in other words your knowledge is based on others opinions and > not > scientific law or principle. No. My knowledge is based on study and experience. The fact that some of my experience agrees with what can be found on the Internet is convenient. I also agree with a lot of TGM theory since it matches what I have been taught and have experienced. The fact that you know nothing about my knowledge and experience makes your conclusion flawed, at best. > > >>You don't know me or anything about me or what I know about the >>golf >>swing. > > We read you post and know what you know about the golf swing. > Nothing > is grounded in science, just opinion. Flawed logic there, David. Reaching a conclusion by answering your own question with an invalid assumption. You have my email address. If you want to know my background email me. I do not wish to discuss it here. thanks, Gary             Date: 09 Feb 2007 20:42:05 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <45cc9536$0$10304$815e3792@news.qwest.net >, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:NZQyh.4581$fb2.129204@weber.videotron.net... > > > > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: > >> > >> "larry" <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >>> Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > >>> point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > >>> chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > >>> > >>> Larry > >> > >> Absurd thing to say. > >> All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >> The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >> beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating > >> clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >> Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > >> > > > > If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing out > > on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. > > > > You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the > > optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That launch > > angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph swing. You > > want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of loft and angle of > > attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch monitor come in. > > > > So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, > > about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your head > > behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will reach > > impact on the upswing. > > You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the > hands. No. This is simply untrue. <snip > -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.               Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:25:59 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:42:05 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> > So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and high, >> > about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. Keep your head >> > behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine tilt. You will reach >> > impact on the upswing. >> >> You'll reach impact on the upswing *only* if the clubhead has passed the >> hands. > >No. This is simply untrue. Sorry but it's 100% true. The right shoulder, straightening right arm and uncocking left wrist are all driving the club downward on the plane to the low point. Only two things will cause the clubhead to swing upward at impact; Playing the ball forward of the low point or bending the left wrist so it replaces the left shoulder as the center of the clubhead and clubface arc. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982           Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:01:23 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:27:07 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: >If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are missing >out on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. No you are not. I hit my driver further when I comply with the geometry of the circle and hit the ball with a descending blow than when I swing up on it. We're only talking about a descending blow of a couple of degrees not enough to take a divot. >You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve the >optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. That >launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph >swing. You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination of >loft and angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch >monitor come in. > >So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and >high, about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. >Keep your head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine >tilt. You will reach impact on the upswing. So what you advocate is swinging from the wrist and clubhead throwaway so you can hit the ball on the upswing. No thanks, I think I'll pass and keep doing it the correct way. >If you have an early release there's a good chance the clubhead will >pass the hands and you'll hit a short, high, shot. I got news for you, if you position the ball inside your left heel and try to hit up on it you can't do nothing but release early to accomplish it. A wrong way plus a wrong way = faulty application. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982             Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:37:20 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:27:07 -0500, "GaryC_47" > <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>If you are htting your driver with a descending blow you are >>missing >>out on distance both from a lower trajectory and excess backspin. > > No you are not. I hit my driver further when I comply with the > geometry of the circle and hit the ball with a descending blow > than > when I swing up on it. We're only talking about a descending blow > of > a couple of degrees not enough to take a divot. I'm only talking a couple of degrees. But depending on loft and ball speed the difference between say -4deg and +4 deg can be as much as 10 yards carry, all else being equal. And don't forget that with the right shaft & clubhead CG combination and a late, aggressive, release, forward shaft bending can add more than 2deg to the launch angle. What is the make and loft of your driver? What is your ball speed? What is your normal trajectory? Do you have a late release? How do you know you are hitting a descending blow and not a level blow? Have you tried your driver on a launch monitor? > >>You want an upward "angle of attack" with the driver to achieve >>the >>optimum launch angle, for your swing speed, for maximum carry. >>That >>launch angle is typically 12-15 degrees for the average 90-95 mph >>swing. You want to achieve that launch angle with a combination >>of >>loft and angle of attack. That's where the fitting cart and launch >>monitor come in. >> >>So tee the ball forward, about the inside of the left heel, and >>high, about half the ball showing above the top of the club face. >>Keep your head behind the ball and maintain your rearward spine >>tilt. You will reach impact on the upswing. > > So what you advocate is swinging from the wrist and clubhead > throwaway > so you can hit the ball on the upswing. > > No thanks, I think I'll pass and keep doing it the correct way. No. I am not advocating flipping. Position the ball so you hit it just past the bottom of the swing. Straight line from the front shoulder all the way down the arms to the flat wrist and straight down the shaft to the clubhead at impact. Like the world's #1. "However, if maximum distance is the goal, then a low-spin 'tumbler' is in order, and this requires an Upstroke Impact. In turn, this requires that the Ball be located ahead of the Left Shoulder at Address (assuming the player does not artificially alter the Shoulder's location during the Stroke and prior to Impact)." Guess who said that. > >>If you have an early release there's a good chance the clubhead >>will >>pass the hands and you'll hit a short, high, shot. > > I got news for you, if you position the ball inside your left heel > and > try to hit up on it you can't do nothing but release early to > accomplish it. A wrong way plus a wrong way = faulty application. No. That is not correct. Releasing early is the swing flaw, call it casting if you want, where release is finished before the hands have reached the hips on the downswing. Acceleration of the hands has stopped. The clubhead will likely pass the hands by impact or you'll flip - clubhead throwaway in your terminology. As I originally said, but you selectively quoted from my post. If you have a normal to late release that won't happen. Gary               Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:27:50 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 02:37:20 -0500, "GaryC_47" <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com > wrote: > >What is the make and loft of your driver? I'm using a Hogan CS3, 9.5 loft with neutral bias. >What is your ball speed? I have no idea, I've never had it measured. >What is your normal trajectory? Piercing and a little higher than the tree tops. >Do you have a late release? I have a correct release. >How do >you know you are hitting a descending blow and not a level blow? Because as an authorized instructor of TGM I was taught to hit the ball with educated hands and my hands tell the clubhead to swing downward through impact. >Have you tried your driver on a launch monitor? No but I want to because I don't think my driver properly fits me. >No. I am not advocating flipping. Position the ball so you hit it >just past the bottom of the swing. Straight line from the front >shoulder all the way down the arms to the flat wrist and straight >down the shaft to the clubhead at impact. Like the world's #1. Where do you advocate we play the ball in reference to our left shoulder? "Straight line from the front shoulder all the way down the arms" is very vague because it can define either the address or impact position and both are not the same. >"However, if maximum distance is the goal, then a low-spin 'tumbler' >is in order, and this requires an Upstroke Impact. Wait, you're talking in circles. Above you said to position the ball so you hit it just past the bottom of the swing arc (this would be on the upstroke). Than you turn around and say "however, if maximum distance is the goal" it requires an upstroke impact. What was the goal with your first statement? >In turn, this >requires that the Ball be located ahead of the Left Shoulder at >Address (assuming the player does not artificially alter the >Shoulder's location during the Stroke and prior to Impact)." Guess >who said that. Who? >> I got news for you, if you position the ball inside your left heel >> and >> try to hit up on it you can't do nothing but release early to >> accomplish it. A wrong way plus a wrong way = faulty application. >No. That is not correct. Releasing early is the swing flaw, call it >casting if you want, where release is finished before the hands have >reached the hips on the downswing. Acceleration of the hands has >stopped. The clubhead will likely pass the hands by impact or you'll >flip - clubhead throwaway in your terminology. As I originally said, >but you selectively quoted from my post. If you have a normal to >late release that won't happen. What you don't seem to understand or don't want to understand is if you play the ball behind your left shoulder and try to hit up on it it causes an early release because you have to so the clubhead will pass your hands for impact. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 12 Feb 2007 00:49:48 From: GaryC_47 Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 02:37:20 -0500, "GaryC_47" > <garyc_48_minus_1@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>No. That is not correct. Releasing early is the swing flaw, call >>it >>casting if you want, where release is finished before the hands >>have >>reached the hips on the downswing. Acceleration of the hands has >>stopped. The clubhead will likely pass the hands by impact or >>you'll >>flip - clubhead throwaway in your terminology. As I originally >>said, >>but you selectively quoted from my post. If you have a normal to >>late release that won't happen. > > What you don't seem to understand or don't want to understand is > if > you play the ball behind your left shoulder and try to hit up on > it it > causes an early release because you have to so the clubhead will > pass > your hands for impact. > > I do understand. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but I think I see where there may be a misunderstanding over the the ball position. I say place the ball inside the left heel. You say place the ball in front of the left shoulder. That's the same place, at least for my setup and what Tiger is doing on the Nike video. At address you should have a slight tilt of the spine toward the right for a right handed golfer. (I don't know if you, TGM, agree with that but that isn't important right now.) If you draw a vertical line, perpendicular to the ground, from the inside of the left heel where the ball is positioned, it is in front of the left shoulder. I have posted Tiger's address position on my web page if you want to look at the photo: http://pages.videotron.com/garyc/ I want to respond to the other points you made in your msg but I don't have time right now. I will tomorrow. thanks, Gary         Date: 08 Feb 2007 12:45:22 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: >Absurd thing to say. >All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. Since I've read many times that the driver "is the only club designed to be hit on the upswing", I'm asking for some clarification. I have noticed quite a few pros teeing up low enough so that it would be hard to hit the middle of the driver head if they were, in fact, hitting up. Of course it's not a myth that people *do* hit balls on the upswing - but that doesn't mean it's optimal.           Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:46:57 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:45:22 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote: >On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> >wrote: > >>Absurd thing to say. >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > >Since I've read many times that the driver "is the only club designed >to be hit on the upswing", I'm asking for some clarification. > >I have noticed quite a few pros teeing up low enough so that it would >be hard to hit the middle of the driver head if they were, in fact, >hitting up. > >Of course it's not a myth that people *do* hit balls on the upswing - >but that doesn't mean it's optimal. Go to any club fitting, Howard. The pros operating the cameras, etc. will explain that driver is meant to be hit on the upswing. I have heard that from both Taylormade and Callaway-- both right here in N. County of San Diego. Larry             Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:58:25 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:46:57 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >Go to any club fitting, Howard. The pros operating the cameras, etc. >will explain that driver is meant to be hit on the upswing. I have >heard that from both Taylormade and Callaway-- both right here in N. >County of San Diego. Been there, done that. Read the magazines and books. As they are consistent in this, I need more than an argument about "what makes sense" to accept that driver shots are not or should not be made in the upswing. But the optimal swing has changed before, and there is enough to the argument that they are wrong that I'm willing to listen - but I expect I will need evidence with actual photos to be convinced.               Date: 10 Feb 2007 21:35:22 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote in message news:alangbaker-D87EF6.13061010022007@news.telus.net... > In article <F9-dnXKJlOK6D1DYnZ2dnUVZ8turnZ2d@bt.com>, > "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in message >> news:alangbaker-E28829.15580309022007@news.telus.net... >> > In article <2tons25eieeok70r5cag4j2cs4qflmtnbk@4ax.com>, >> > David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >> > >> >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" >> >> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel >> >> >because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your >> >> >weight is distributed equally between your left and >> >> >right feet then the low point is in the centre of your >> >> >stance >> >> >> >> Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to >> >> our >> >> left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. >> > >> > But the left shoulder is itself moving and that changes things... >> > >> > -- >> At impact Hogan's left shoulder was directly over >> the ball, spotted just inside the left heel, with the left >> arm and shaft in a straight line and most of his weight >> on his left foot. > > If that were true along with what's already been said (that the low > point of the swing is under the left shoulder) then Hogan wasn't hitting > down on the ball, but instead sweeping every shot. > > Hmm.... > > -- Well the tee flips backwards a couple of yards which would suggest that the ball was hit with a slightly descending blow.         Date: 08 Feb 2007 14:05:47 From: John van der Pflum Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: >All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > Huh? 'Splain that to me........... -- jvdp Start clearing your calendars http://www.rsgcincinnati.com           Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:00:11 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:05:47 -0500, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote: >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >> > >Huh? 'Splain that to me........... It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the downswing. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982             Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <atons2pumtsrrn68728der76h65d0r567e@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:05:47 -0500, John van der Pflum > <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote: > > >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating > >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > >> > > > >Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > > It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top > through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around > your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your > left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your > left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With > the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it > while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball > forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. > > Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left > shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the > downswing. Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.               Date: 10 Feb 2007 01:45:20 From: David Laville Subject: Alan Baker On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top >> through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around >> your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your >> left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your >> left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With >> the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it >> while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball >> forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. >> >> Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left >> shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the >> downswing. > >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind your bold claim. Name it champ, I'll match it. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 10 Feb 2007 01:52:40 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <rb8qs294jqb4a0mbj2p87p7rpah649j5mk@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:58 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: > > > >> It's real simple; your left arm remains straight or firm from the top > >> through impact. This means the club is rotating in a circle around > >> your left shoulder with the low point of the circle being beneath your > >> left shoulder. Even with the ball teed up if you play it behind your > >> left shoulder you will be hitting down on the ball at impact. With > >> the ball positioned below your left shoulder you will be hitting it > >> while the club is moving parallel with the ground. Position the ball > >> forward of your left shoulder and you will hit it on the up swing. > >> > >> Since golfers are taught to play the ball just inside the left > >> shoulder with the driver geometry says the ball will be hit on the > >> downswing. > > > >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. > > Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the > #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I > described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves > me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind > your bold claim. > > Name it champ, I'll match it. So you ran off and checked a swing video of Tiger Woods, did you? LOL Sorry, David, but I didn't claim that *every* good golfer hits the drive on the upswing, just that there are many who do. > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 And BTW Dave, it's considered tasteless to use people's names in subject lines. I would have seen your reply in any case, so try to behave with appropriate etiquette. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                   Date: 10 Feb 2007 02:10:30 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:52:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. >> >> Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the >> #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I >> described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves >> me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind >> your bold claim. >> >> Name it champ, I'll match it. > >So you ran off and checked a swing video of Tiger Woods, did you? I didn't have to run off and check it, I already knew. Tiger proves the validity of what I say. >Sorry, David, but I didn't claim that *every* good golfer hits the drive >on the upswing, just that there are many who do. You said "unfortunately, simple observation of actual swings prove me wrong". Apparently it doesn't because you wimped out on standing behind your bold claim. >And BTW Dave, it's considered tasteless to use people's names in subject >lines. I would have seen your reply in any case, so try to behave with >appropriate etiquette. I sorry you consider it tasteless to make a post that draws attention to your gutless claims. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                     Date: 10 Feb 2007 02:16:19 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <hn9qs2hgjpsmv60k7te0nhguifsavas9k0@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:52:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: > > >> >Unfortunately, simple observations of actual golf swings prove you wrong. > >> > >> Really, how much are you willing to wager? How about if I prove the > >> #1 golfer in the world plays golf exactly with the principle I > >> described above? If you truly believe that simple observation proves > >> me wrong and you right lets see how much your willing to stand behind > >> your bold claim. > >> > >> Name it champ, I'll match it. > > > >So you ran off and checked a swing video of Tiger Woods, did you? > > I didn't have to run off and check it, I already knew. Tiger proves > the validity of what I say. Nope. One example -- even of the best player in the world -- doesn't describe all the possibilities of a good golf swing. > > >Sorry, David, but I didn't claim that *every* good golfer hits the drive > >on the upswing, just that there are many who do. > > You said "unfortunately, simple observation of actual swings prove me > wrong". Apparently it doesn't because you wimped out on standing > behind your bold claim. No. I wouldn't get drawn into your pathetic little "trap". There's a difference. > > >And BTW Dave, it's considered tasteless to use people's names in subject > >lines. I would have seen your reply in any case, so try to behave with > >appropriate etiquette. > > I sorry you consider it tasteless to make a post that draws attention > to your gutless claims. Not just me, David. <snip signature > BTW, while were on the subject of etiquette, why don't you look up "sig delimiter"? -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.           Date: 08 Feb 2007 13:03:38 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote in message news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > wrote: > >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >> > > Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > -- > > jvdp A clubhead going up is decelerating. It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. It's slowing down. Why would you want to do that?             Date: 08 Feb 2007 21:54:40 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <45cb8223$0$705$815e3792@news.qwest.net >, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > "John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message > news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > > wrote: > > > >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating > >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > >> > > > > Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > > -- > > > > jvdp > > A clubhead going up is decelerating. > It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. > It's slowing down. > Why would you want to do that? There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point at which the clubhead passes the hands. Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway between the left and right shoulder. If the ball is positioned forward of this point, then the clubhead will catch up to the hands forward of the swing's low point. Low point is with respect to the ground, maximum extension is with respect to the golfer's body. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.               Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:58:47 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:54:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point >at which the clubhead passes the hands. Has a lot to do with it. When ever the clubhead passes the hands, no matter where the hands are, the low point has been reached. When the clubhead passes your hands it can only swing up. You cannot swing down to the low point if the clubhead is swinging up. This is why a flat left wrist is so important, it's the #1 alignment factor that allows you to comply with the geometry of the circle. >Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, >the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway >between the left and right shoulder. Absolutely wrong. Both arms are not essentially straight near the middle of the swing. Both arms don't become straight until they are approx. 45* past impact. Between you shoulders (your spine) is the center of your shoulder turn. Your left shoulder is the center of the clubhead and clubface arc. One center is fixed (your spine) while the other is movable (your left shoulder). >If the ball is positioned forward >of this point, then the clubhead will catch up to the hands forward of >the swing's low point. > >Low point is with respect to the ground, Low point is with respect to the left shoulder, it will always be beneath it. >maximum extension is with >respect to the golfer's body. There is always maximum extension because we always swing the club with one arm fully extended. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:47:35 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <voons2dk4efhofje7alnrtdtrcu5cbb7qj@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:54:40 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: > > > >There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point > >at which the clubhead passes the hands. > > Has a lot to do with it. When ever the clubhead passes the hands, no > matter where the hands are, the low point has been reached. When the > clubhead passes your hands it can only swing up. You cannot swing > down to the low point if the clubhead is swinging up. This is why a > flat left wrist is so important, it's the #1 alignment factor that > allows you to comply with the geometry of the circle. Sorry, but this is simply not so. Imagine a swing where you never uncock the wrists. The clubhead never passes the hands and yet, there is *still* a low point to it. > > >Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, > >the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway > >between the left and right shoulder. > > Absolutely wrong. Both arms are not essentially straight near the > middle of the swing. Both arms don't become straight until they are > approx. 45* past impact. Between you shoulders (your spine) is the > center of your shoulder turn. Your left shoulder is the center of the > clubhead and clubface arc. One center is fixed (your spine) while the > other is movable (your left shoulder). Wrong on so many counts. At impact, both arms *are* "essentially straight". The amount of bend left in the right arm is minimal. It *may* take another 45 degrees for that minimal bend to finally disappear entirely, but that doesn't change that it *is* minimal from a length of the right arm perspective. Next, your spine is *not* a fixed centre as the transition from back foot to front foot moves the spine. Next, the very fact that you admit that the spine is rotating at all -- let alone consider the implications of its movement -- means that the centre of the clubhead's arc is *not* your left shoulder. Instantaneously, yes, but taken overall, no. > > >If the ball is positioned forward > >of this point, then the clubhead will catch up to the hands forward of > >the swing's low point. > > > >Low point is with respect to the ground, > > Low point is with respect to the left shoulder, it will always be > beneath it. It will always been close to there, I agree, but this is about whether or not you can go past that point before the clubhead passes your hands. As I demonstrated above, you obviously can. > > >maximum extension is with > >respect to the golfer's body. > > There is always maximum extension because we always swing the club > with one arm fully extended. > > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                   Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:29:28 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:47:35 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> Has a lot to do with it. When ever the clubhead passes the hands, no >> matter where the hands are, the low point has been reached. When the >> clubhead passes your hands it can only swing up. You cannot swing >> down to the low point if the clubhead is swinging up. This is why a >> flat left wrist is so important, it's the #1 alignment factor that >> allows you to comply with the geometry of the circle. > >Sorry, but this is simply not so. > >Imagine a swing where you never uncock the wrists. The clubhead never >passes the hands and yet, there is *still* a low point to it. You're changing the argument. Brad and I said where ever the clubhead passes your hands is the low point contrary to your claim it has nothing to do with it. Now you're asking us to imagine a swing where you never uncock the wrist and the clubhead never passes the hands. >> >Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, >> >the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway >> >between the left and right shoulder. >> >> Absolutely wrong. Both arms are not essentially straight near the >> middle of the swing. Both arms don't become straight until they are >> approx. 45* past impact. Between you shoulders (your spine) is the >> center of your shoulder turn. Your left shoulder is the center of the >> clubhead and clubface arc. One center is fixed (your spine) while the >> other is movable (your left shoulder). > >Wrong on so many counts. > >At impact, both arms *are* "essentially straight". The amount of bend >left in the right arm is minimal. It *may* take another 45 degrees for >that minimal bend to finally disappear entirely, but that doesn't change >that it *is* minimal from a length of the right arm perspective. Maybe in your swing they're essentially straight but not in a correct swing. Here's a tip, never use your swing as a model. >Next, your spine is *not* a fixed centre as the transition from back >foot to front foot moves the spine. That is not what I meant by fixed. Fixed as in the shoulders rotate around the spine, not the spine rotating around the shoulders. >Next, the very fact that you admit that the spine is rotating at all -- >let alone consider the implications of its movement -- Where did I say anything about the spine rotating? > means that the >centre of the clubhead's arc is *not* your left shoulder. >Instantaneously, yes, but taken overall, no. If your straight left arm swings around your left shoulder how can the center of the clubhead arc be any other place than your left shoulder? Saying otherwise is so idiotic I'm not even going to waste my time discussing it. >> Low point is with respect to the left shoulder, it will always be >> beneath it. > >It will always been close to there, I agree, but this is about whether >or not you can go past that point before the clubhead passes your hands. I thought this was about your claim where the clubhead passes your hands has no affect on the low point. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982               Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:27:25 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote in message news:alangbaker-7AEBD3.13544008022007@news.telus.net... > In article <45cb8223$0$705$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: > >> "John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message >> news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... >> > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >> >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >> >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a >> >>decelerating >> >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >> >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >> >> >> > >> > Huh? 'Splain that to me........... >> > -- >> > >> > jvdp >> >> A clubhead going up is decelerating. >> It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. >> It's slowing down. >> Why would you want to do that? > > There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point > at which the clubhead passes the hands. It's the optimal. You want it after low point. You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? > > Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, > the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway > between the left and right shoulder. If the ball is positioned forward > of this point, then the clubhead will catch up to the hands forward of > the swing's low point. > > Low point is with respect to the ground, maximum extension is with > respect to the golfer's body. Both arm's stright doesn't occur until the club is almost pointing toward the target. Thats when the rt arm becomes straight. Low point for the shaft and left arm is below the left armpit. The clubhead cannot go up as long as it is trailing the hands.                 Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:51:51 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:27:25 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: >> There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point >> at which the clubhead passes the hands. > >It's the optimal. You want it after low point. >You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? We don't want the clubhead passing the hands prior to hitting the ball.                   Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:01:59 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net > wrote in message news:c16ps2dtt76oueokotn03qm16mkk1nhgj1@4ax.com... > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:27:25 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > wrote: > >>> There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point >>> at which the clubhead passes the hands. >> >>It's the optimal. You want it after low point. >>You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? > > We don't want the clubhead passing the hands prior to hitting the > ball. > The ball is prior to low point.                     Date: 10 Feb 2007 01:02:20 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:01:59 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: >>>It's the optimal. You want it after low point. >>>You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? >> >> We don't want the clubhead passing the hands prior to hitting the >> ball. >> > >The ball is prior to low point. That's what we're discussing - whether the magazines are all wrong in saying that with drivers - the club is on its way up. We need more than just a statement - we need some supporting evidence.                       Date: 09 Feb 2007 20:23:53 From: Otto Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance Put it where you can hit it good every time. For most it is somewhere between the target heel and the sternum. Longer clubs tend to bias toward the target heel. Shorter clubs tend to bias toward the sternum. Each swing has a continuum with the longest club to farthest forward and the shortest club the most rearward. Remember, as you move from one club to the next, we are only talking a fraction of a ball width. Otto                         Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:32:06 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:23:53 -0500, "Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote: >Put it where you can hit it good every time. > >For most it is somewhere between the target heel and the sternum. How does the golfer determine the exact spot? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                           Date: 12 Feb 2007 07:27:56 From: Otto Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message news:3ervs2h3pt6685abfqin5h4scj7tdg2ae6@4ax.com... > How does the golfer determine the exact spot? A practice swing. Otto                         Date: 10 Feb 2007 01:31:09 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <V39zh.3225$6a.3147@bignews4.bellsouth.net >, "Otto" <ottondebREMOVE%$#%^%$@@bellsouth.net > wrote: > Put it where you can hit it good every time. > > For most it is somewhere between the target heel and the sternum. > > Longer clubs tend to bias toward the target heel. > > Shorter clubs tend to bias toward the sternum. > > Each swing has a continuum with the longest club to farthest forward and > the shortest club the most rearward. > > Remember, as you move from one club to the next, we are only talking a > fraction of a ball width. > > Otto Sounds like good sense to me! -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                     Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:52:28 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <45cc9af8$0$10301$815e3792@news.qwest.net >, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > "Howard Brazee" <howard@brazee.net> wrote in message > news:c16ps2dtt76oueokotn03qm16mkk1nhgj1@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:27:25 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > > wrote: > > > >>> There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point > >>> at which the clubhead passes the hands. > >> > >>It's the optimal. You want it after low point. > >>You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? > > > > We don't want the clubhead passing the hands prior to hitting the > > ball. > > > > The ball is prior to low point. Not when you're hitting a driver, it's not. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                       Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:25:30 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:52:28 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> > We don't want the clubhead passing the hands prior to hitting the >> > ball. >> > >> >> The ball is prior to low point. > >Not when you're hitting a driver, it's not. That's you're option. What Brad and I are talking about is what you want to do in an uncompensated stroke that complies with the geometry of the circle. I prefer to comply and use no compensations. If you want to bend your left wrist and try to drive the ball in the air that's your option. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 08 Feb 2007 22:32:26 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <45cba3d6$0$706$815e3792@news.qwest.net >, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in message > news:alangbaker-7AEBD3.13544008022007@news.telus.net... > > In article <45cb8223$0$705$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, > > "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> wrote: > > > >> "John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message > >> news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... > >> > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. > >> >>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead > >> >>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a > >> >>decelerating > >> >>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. > >> >>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Huh? 'Splain that to me........... > >> > -- > >> > > >> > jvdp > >> > >> A clubhead going up is decelerating. > >> It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. > >> It's slowing down. > >> Why would you want to do that? > > > > There's nothing about the low point that requires that that be the point > > at which the clubhead passes the hands. > > It's the optimal. You want it after low point. > You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? No, you probably don't, but the clubhead can pass the hands *after* the low point when the ball is forward and on a tee... > > > > Near the middle of the swing, when both arms are essentially straight, > > the centre of rotation of the swing is located essentially midway > > between the left and right shoulder. If the ball is positioned forward > > of this point, then the clubhead will catch up to the hands forward of > > the swing's low point. > > > > Low point is with respect to the ground, maximum extension is with > > respect to the golfer's body. > > Both arm's stright doesn't occur until the club is almost pointing toward > the target. > Thats when the rt arm becomes straight. That's why I said "essentially" straight, and if the right arm isn't close to straight at impact, you've not gotten all the acceleration out of it that you could. > Low point for the shaft and left arm is below the left armpit. > The clubhead cannot go up as long as it is trailing the hands. Sorry, but you're wrong. There are a number of essentially circular movements that are combined in a golf swing and they can be combined such that the clubhead is moving upward before it passes the hands. One thing you're forgetting is that the shoulders are rotating; in particular, the left shoulder is moving up. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                   Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:59:44 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:32:26 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> It's the optimal. You want it after low point. >> You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? > >No, you probably don't, but the clubhead can pass the hands *after* the >low point when the ball is forward and on a tee... So you advise playing the ball forward of your left shoulder? >That's why I said "essentially" straight, and if the right arm isn't >close to straight at impact, you've not gotten all the acceleration out >of it that you could. You want the right arm bent at impact so it's still straightening through impact adding thrust that helps resist impact deceleration. > Low point for the shaft and left arm is below the left armpit. >> The clubhead cannot go up as long as it is trailing the hands. > >Sorry, but you're wrong. Sorry, but you are 100% wrong and he is 100% right. If the left arm is straight from the top through impact and the left arm swings around the left shoulder than how can the low point be any other place than below the center of rotation (the left shoulder)? >There are a number of essentially circular movements that are combined >in a golf swing and they can be combined such that the clubhead is >moving upward before it passes the hands. Sure, if you swing like a hacker. But I thought we were talking about what is correct, not how to do it like a weekend hack. >One thing you're forgetting is that the shoulders are rotating; in >particular, the left shoulder is moving up. But the clubhead moving down from the uncocking left wrist. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                     Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:57:28 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <9rons2hknjdlo5c4t7k0649qvkc2pf764k@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:32:26 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: > > >> It's the optimal. You want it after low point. > >> You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? > > > >No, you probably don't, but the clubhead can pass the hands *after* the > >low point when the ball is forward and on a tee... > > So you advise playing the ball forward of your left shoulder? How do you arrive at that idea? > > >That's why I said "essentially" straight, and if the right arm isn't > >close to straight at impact, you've not gotten all the acceleration out > >of it that you could. > > You want the right arm bent at impact so it's still straightening > through impact adding thrust that helps resist impact deceleration. As has been pointed out many times, the clubhead essentially acts as a free body at impact. You can't do anything to change the fact that impact will decelerate it. > > > Low point for the shaft and left arm is below the left armpit. > >> The clubhead cannot go up as long as it is trailing the hands. > > > >Sorry, but you're wrong. > > Sorry, but you are 100% wrong and he is 100% right. If the left arm > is straight from the top through impact and the left arm swings around > the left shoulder than how can the low point be any other place than > below the center of rotation (the left shoulder)? Make a slow swing. Never uncock the wrists. This is what we do in a chip and yet the clubhead *does* go up despite trailing the hands... > > >There are a number of essentially circular movements that are combined > >in a golf swing and they can be combined such that the clubhead is > >moving upward before it passes the hands. > > Sure, if you swing like a hacker. But I thought we were talking about > what is correct, not how to do it like a weekend hack. Make up your mind. You declared it an impossibility (earlier in this post, no less!), now you admit it is possible but declare it undesirable. You'd be more credible if you'd said that in the first place. Not necessarily correct, but more credible. > > >One thing you're forgetting is that the shoulders are rotating; in > >particular, the left shoulder is moving up. > > But the clubhead moving down from the uncocking left wrist. From many things. It moves down in the swing from the uncocking of the wrists, the rotation of the left arm about the shoulder joint, *and* the rotation of the shoulders about the torso/spine. Declaring that anyone is the magic part of the equation just makes one look like an idiot. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                       Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:30:18 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:57:28 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> >> It's the optimal. You want it after low point. >> >> You don't want the clunhead passing the hands prior to low point do you? >> > >> >No, you probably don't, but the clubhead can pass the hands *after* the >> >low point when the ball is forward and on a tee... >> >> So you advise playing the ball forward of your left shoulder? > >How do you arrive at that idea? You think the ball should be hit on the upstroke. >> You want the right arm bent at impact so it's still straightening >> through impact adding thrust that helps resist impact deceleration. > >As has been pointed out many times, the clubhead essentially acts as a >free body at impact. You can't do anything to change the fact that >impact will decelerate it. Read what I wrote. I said it helps resist I didn't say it changes the fact. If you can keep adding thrust to the club through impact why not? >> Sorry, but you are 100% wrong and he is 100% right. If the left arm >> is straight from the top through impact and the left arm swings around >> the left shoulder than how can the low point be any other place than >> below the center of rotation (the left shoulder)? > >Make a slow swing. Never uncock the wrists. And my left arm and club still swings around my left shoulder. Was there a point to this idiotic example? >This is what we do in a chip >and yet the clubhead *does* go up despite trailing the hands... After it passes through the low point, right? >> >There are a number of essentially circular movements that are combined >> >in a golf swing and they can be combined such that the clubhead is >> >moving upward before it passes the hands. >> >> Sure, if you swing like a hacker. But I thought we were talking about >> what is correct, not how to do it like a weekend hack. > >Make up your mind. You declared it an impossibility (earlier in this >post, no less!), now you admit it is possible but declare it undesirable. I have never declared it an impossibility. You must have me confused with Brad. >You'd be more credible if you'd said that in the first place. Not >necessarily correct, but more credible. I've never said it. Get your facts straight. >> >One thing you're forgetting is that the shoulders are rotating; in >> >particular, the left shoulder is moving up. >> >> But the clubhead moving down from the uncocking left wrist. > >From many things. It moves down in the swing from the uncocking of the >wrists, the rotation of the left arm about the shoulder joint, *and* the >rotation of the shoulders about the torso/spine. Declaring that anyone >is the magic part of the equation just makes one look like an idiot. I never said anyone is the magic part. Starting to makeup things I'm saying? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                         Date: 11 Feb 2007 21:53:46 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message news:f9rvs2t0b34pn7fo7dlq31c59iqfvrnej6@4ax.com... > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:57:28 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: >> >>Make up your mind. You declared it an impossibility (earlier in this >>post, no less!), now you admit it is possible but declare it undesirable. > > I have never declared it an impossibility. You must have me confused > with Brad. > >>You'd be more credible if you'd said that in the first place. Not >>necessarily correct, but more credible. My mistake. I thought it was a golf discussion of a good golf swing application.             Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:53:20 From: John van der Pflum Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:03:38 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com > wrote: > >"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message >news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> >> wrote: >> >>>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a decelerating >>>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >>> >> >> Huh? 'Splain that to me........... >> -- >> >> jvdp > >A clubhead going up is decelerating. >It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. >It's slowing down. >Why would you want to do that? > Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the upswing? Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing down? -- jvdp Start clearing your calendars http://www.rsgcincinnati.com               Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:00:39 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:53:20 -0500, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote: >Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have >read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the >upswing? Because you can hit the ball anyway you want. You can even teach anything you want. Golf has been traditionally taught to hit the ball on the upswing and that's what is taught, they don't question it. Hit the ball on the downswing with a driver and you'll experience a penetrating ball flight like you never thought possible. >Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing >down? The rate of acceleration is slowing down. 8) David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                 Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:59:30 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <ttons2hq6vfmqp4pbolfl899tshktcqhn4@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:53:20 -0500, John van der Pflum > <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote: > > >Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have > >read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the > >upswing? > > Because you can hit the ball anyway you want. You can even teach > anything you want. Golf has been traditionally taught to hit the ball > on the upswing and that's what is taught, they don't question it. > > Hit the ball on the downswing with a driver and you'll experience a > penetrating ball flight like you never thought possible. Describe the physics of that... ...if you can. > > >Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing > >down? > > The rate of acceleration is slowing down. 8) > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                   Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:30:50 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:59:30 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> Hit the ball on the downswing with a driver and you'll experience a >> penetrating ball flight like you never thought possible. > >Describe the physics of that... > > >...if you can. I don't have to describe the physics behind it. if you can't understand a ball driving forward has a more penetrating ball flight than one driving upward than you should be the last person arguing the golf swing. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982                     Date: 12 Feb 2007 19:51:39 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <jbrvs2l6bftht52gj6ach4tqp2ghb2pb8p@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:59:30 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> > wrote: > > >> Hit the ball on the downswing with a driver and you'll experience a > >> penetrating ball flight like you never thought possible. > > > >Describe the physics of that... > > > > > >...if you can. > > I don't have to describe the physics behind it. if you can't > understand a ball driving forward has a more penetrating ball flight > than one driving upward than you should be the last person arguing the > golf swing. Translation: you can't describe the physics of it... I thought as much. -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.               Date: 08 Feb 2007 14:16:51 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote in message news:ma3ns2l38tcq9s1msmjgmkj0iqdvee5adr@4ax.com... > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:03:38 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> > wrote: > >> >>"John van der Pflum" <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org> wrote in message >>news:n3tms25fmpjjvhjshr35l6kk6bqi3kg19b@4ax.com... >>> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:51:41 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz@qwesttrash.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>All teed balls should be struck on the downswing. >>>>The only way you can hit a ball on the upswing is to have your clubhead >>>>beyond lowpoint and pass your hands prior to impact. Thats a >>>>decelerating >>>>clubhead. Clubhead throwaway. >>>>Hitting any ball on the upswing is a myth, including the driver. >>>> >>> >>> Huh? 'Splain that to me........... >>> -- >>> >>> jvdp >> >>A clubhead going up is decelerating. >>It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. >>It's slowing down. >>Why would you want to do that? >> > > Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have > read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the > upswing? > > Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing > down? > -- > > jvdp > Start clearing your calendars > http://www.rsgcincinnati.com The left arm does not swing up until it is well past the left shoulder. Most of us play with the hands leading. Now how is the clubhead going to go up, if the left hand is still going down? Well it could if you have a clubhead that is past your hands, not good, it's decelerating from loss of lag. Thats a cupped left wrist, a loss of lag. If the left hand is going up prior to it's low point, you have a loss of width in your radius, slack in your swing, and a decelerating clubhead.               Date: 08 Feb 2007 14:01:45 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:53:20 -0500, John van der Pflum <nowhammymyspammy@bite.org > wrote: >>A clubhead going up is decelerating. >>It is past lowpoint, it has passed the hands, it is not being lagged. >>It's slowing down. >>Why would you want to do that? >> > >Then why does every magazine, article, and swing instructor I have >read/taken a lesson from say that you should hit your driver on the >upswing? > >Is it really decelerating or is the rate of acceleration just slowing >down? Why does it have to be either? Unless the swing is only caused by gravity, there is nothing saying that the acceleration must stop at the bottom of the swing. In fact, instructors tell us to continue the acceleration through the ball.       Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:49:15 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "larry" <larry@deldata.com > wrote in message news:00mms2hrqdcajh6ceda4t1p10bbfs47jdh@4ax.com... > On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com> > > Teed balls should be struck with the clubhead ascending after its low > point--which occurs in the middle of our stance. If you want to > chunk or top the ball more often, play it forward. > > Larry The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your weight is distributed equally between your left and right feet then the low point is in the centre of your stance - but that's a reverse pivot.         Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:59:51 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote: >The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel >because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your >weight is distributed equally between your left and >right feet then the low point is in the centre of your >stance Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982           Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:58:03 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <2tons25eieeok70r5cag4j2cs4qflmtnbk@4ax.com >, David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" > <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: > > >The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel > >because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your > >weight is distributed equally between your left and > >right feet then the low point is in the centre of your > >stance > > Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our > left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. But the left shoulder is itself moving and that changes things... -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.             Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:30:36 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:03 GMT, Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote: >> Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our >> left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. > >But the left shoulder is itself moving and that changes things... It doesn't change anything. Low point will always be beneath the left shoulder no matter where the left shoulder is at. This is why I said in another post low point is determined by left shoulder position. Note how everything I say is consistent and systematic? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982             Date: 10 Feb 2007 09:37:11 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote in message news:alangbaker-E28829.15580309022007@news.telus.net... > In article <2tons25eieeok70r5cag4j2cs4qflmtnbk@4ax.com>, > David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" >> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> >The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel >> >because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your >> >weight is distributed equally between your left and >> >right feet then the low point is in the centre of your >> >stance >> >> Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our >> left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. > > But the left shoulder is itself moving and that changes things... > > -- At impact Hogan's left shoulder was directly over the ball, spotted just inside the left heel, with the left arm and shaft in a straight line and most of his weight on his left foot.               Date: 10 Feb 2007 21:06:10 From: Alan Baker Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <F9-dnXKJlOK6D1DYnZ2dnUVZ8turnZ2d@bt.com >, "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote: > "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net> wrote in message > news:alangbaker-E28829.15580309022007@news.telus.net... > > In article <2tons25eieeok70r5cag4j2cs4qflmtnbk@4ax.com>, > > David Laville <dlaville@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" > >> <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> > >> >The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel > >> >because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your > >> >weight is distributed equally between your left and > >> >right feet then the low point is in the centre of your > >> >stance > >> > >> Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our > >> left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. > > > > But the left shoulder is itself moving and that changes things... > > > > -- > At impact Hogan's left shoulder was directly over > the ball, spotted just inside the left heel, with the left > arm and shaft in a straight line and most of his weight > on his left foot. If that were true along with what's already been said (that the low point of the swing is under the left shoulder) then Hogan wasn't hitting down on the ball, but instead sweeping every shot. Hmm.... -- "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" -- "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone and how he missed the demo of the iPhone speakerphone.                 Date: From: Subject:                 Date: 10 Feb 2007 14:28:03 From: glfnaz Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "Alan Baker" <alangbaker@telus.net > wrote in message news:alangbaker-D87EF6.13061010022007@news.telus.net... > In article <F9-dnXKJlOK6D1DYnZ2dnUVZ8turnZ2d@bt.com>, > "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> At impact Hogan's left shoulder was directly over >> the ball, spotted just inside the left heel, with the left >> arm and shaft in a straight line and most of his weight >> on his left foot. > > If that were true along with what's already been said (that the low > point of the swing is under the left shoulder) then Hogan wasn't hitting > down on the ball, but instead sweeping every shot. > > Hmm.... > Hogan played from a mid-body address. To ensure lag and a downward strike at impact, his hands were over his left thigh at impact. He had an arched left wrist. His hands at impact were 5 inches targetward of their address position. His hands at their low-point, the lagging clubhead approaching low point.           Date: 09 Feb 2007 10:04:28 From: Alan Murphy Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance "David Laville" <dlaville@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message news:2tons25eieeok70r5cag4j2cs4qflmtnbk@4ax.com... > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:49:15 -0000, "Alan Murphy" > <afmccl@btinternet.com> wrote: > >>The low point of my swing is opposite my left heel >>because that's where 95% of my weight is. If your >>weight is distributed equally between your left and >>right feet then the low point is in the centre of your >>stance > > Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our > left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > TB-8982 > I should have said that I was talking about the impact and not address position. Alan             Date: 12 Feb 2007 04:26:15 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:04:28 -0000, "Alan Murphy" <afmccl@btinternet.com > wrote: >> Only if our left arm were attached to our spine. It's attached to our >> left shoulder, hence the low point being beneath it. >I should have said that I was talking about the impact >and not address position. Last time I checked my left arm was swinging around my left shoulder at both address and impact. I have yet to see a golfer who can move his left arm from his left shoulder to his spine. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982     Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:02:20 From: Bobby Knight Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 8 Feb 2007 08:36:29 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 8, 9:57 am, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirt...@msn.com> wrote: >> >> >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books >> >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. >> >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. >> >> "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your >> front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. >> >> But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway >> metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." >> They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they >> don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble >> to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and >> behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros >> so that we were not making a parallax error. > >You will notice that their head is behind the ball, though. > >My pro tells me to play all irons with the ball off my left cheek. >All teed balls farther forward (in front of the left shoulder). Well...your pro is WRONG. LLLLLLarrry had decreed such, and there can be no argument. -- ___, \o   Date: 06 Feb 2007 21:43:57 From: gpsman Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 6, 1:26 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: <brevity snip> > I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly > in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play > the ball with various clubs. For which pro were you looping...? ----- - gpsman   Date: 07 Feb 2007 09:26:17 From: david s-a Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance larry wrote: > I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly > in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play > the ball with various clubs. > A consequence of the modern tendency to match clubs in accordance with MOI rather than swingweight. With MOI matched irons all clubs feel/swing the same and the sensation of the 'low point' position in the swing tends to be at the same point in a full swing regardless as to which club is used. Woods are often matched to a slightly higher MOI than the irons thus making the player think the 'low point' is slightly further forward....moving the ball forward which accomodates the requirement of a sweeping through and up motion when approaching impact....the exact opposite of that required for irons. Just my $0.02 cheers david     Date: 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:26:17 +1100, david s-a <dsantwyk@bigpond.net.au > wrote: >larry wrote: >> I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly >> in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play >> the ball with various clubs. >> > > >A consequence of the modern tendency to match clubs in accordance with >MOI rather than swingweight. With MOI matched irons all clubs feel/swing >the same and the sensation of the 'low point' position in the swing >tends to be at the same point in a full swing regardless as to which >club is used. Woods are often matched to a slightly higher MOI than the >irons thus making the player think the 'low point' is slightly further >forward....moving the ball forward which accomodates the requirement of >a sweeping through and up motion when approaching impact....the exact >opposite of that required for irons. > >Just my $0.02 > >cheers >david Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in order to move the bottom of your swing arc. Larry       Date: 09 Feb 2007 17:02:23 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 9, 11:20 am, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On 8 Feb 2007 17:39:49 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > >On Feb 8, 7:28 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On 8 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > >> wrote: > > >> >On Feb 8, 5:40 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <u...@foobar.com> wrote: > > >> >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > >> >> middle of your stance. " > > >> >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > >> >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > > >> >> Larry > > >> >Larry, why don't you ever admit when you make mistakes? It > >> >screws up your credibility. Your statement that the low point of the > >> >golf swing is the middle of your stance is an obvious blunder, > >> >as proven to you by Alan and your own words. How can you > >> >place the ball in the middle of your stance and hit it on the > >> >downswing if the middle of the stance is the low point of the > >> >swing? By your own words, you'd be scooping it if the low > >> >point were there. > > >> >Maybe if you stopped arguing, you might learn something, too. > > >> The pros play the ball in the middle of their stance. Period. > > >That's not the point that is being argued right now. Your statement > >that the low point of the golf swing is the middle of your stance > >is what is being contested. Why don't you just admit that is > >obviously an incorrect statement. Or do you just like to argue? > > Because it is typical RSG nit-pick and trivia that is not even > interesting. It doesn't make any difference. Nit-pick? We are talking about ball position and you claim the low point is in the middle of the stance, and it is a nit pick to point out that you haven't got a freaking clue what you are talking about? Yeah, I guess it is totally impossible for you to admit error even when it is an obvious blunder to anyone who has looked at a golf swing on video frame by frame.       Date: 08 Feb 2007 09:32:10 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- >striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway >metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in >order to move the bottom of your swing arc. So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? If it is that they can twist better so they don't need to move forward - then we should examine our physical ability before emulating them. If it's because of differences in equipment - we should examine our equipment before emulating them.         Date: 08 Feb 2007 09:03:43 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:32:10 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote: >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> >wrote: > >>Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- >>striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway >>metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in >>order to move the bottom of your swing arc. > >So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability >of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it forward in your stance. Larry > >If it is that they can twist better so they don't need to move forward >- then we should examine our physical ability before emulating them. >If it's because of differences in equipment - we should examine our >equipment before emulating them.           Date: 09 Feb 2007 01:24:13 From: Rick Brandt Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance larry wrote: > I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The > bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and > always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should > emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, > play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it > low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it > forward in your stance. The low point of a swung club is only directly in the middle of your stance if you have both hands at the same position on the grip (which no one does). With one the trailing hand gripped below the leading hand (normal) the low spot is forward of the center of your stance. This is basic triangle geometry.             Date: 09 Feb 2007 03:01:33 From: David Laville Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:24:13 GMT, "Rick Brandt" <rickbrandt2@hotmail.com > wrote: >The low point of a swung club is only directly in the middle of your stance if >you have both hands at the same position on the grip (which no one does). With >one the trailing hand gripped below the leading hand (normal) the low spot is >forward of the center of your stance. This is basic triangle geometry. Triangle geometry is the left arm forms one side of the triangle, the shoulder line the second that the right arm the third. You can only change the length of the third side by bending and straightening the right arm. The first and second side remains a constant since their length never changes. Low point is determined by the position of the left shoulder since the left arm and club swing full length around it. The position of the right hand has nothing to do with it since it doesn't alter the swing center or length of the left arm and club lever. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982           Date: 08 Feb 2007 18:12:08 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <9ilms2t8mg1luvsi7qcodg97pq02m8n1ga@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:32:10 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> > wrote: > > >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> > >wrote: > > > >>Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- > >>striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway > >>metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in > >>order to move the bottom of your swing arc. > > > >So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability > >of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? > > I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The > bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and > always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should > emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, > play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it > low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it > forward in your stance. Sorry, Larry, but that is nonsense and I can prove it even to you. If the *ball* is in the middle of the stance and you take a divot that starts at the ball and goes forward, then the low point *must* be further up than the ball. > > Larry > > > >If it is that they can twist better so they don't need to move forward > >- then we should examine our physical ability before emulating them. > >If it's because of differences in equipment - we should examine our > >equipment before emulating them.             Date: 08 Feb 2007 10:19:42 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:12:08 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com > wrote: >In article <9ilms2t8mg1luvsi7qcodg97pq02m8n1ga@4ax.com>, > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:32:10 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> >> wrote: >> >> >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> >> >wrote: >> > >> >>Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- >> >>striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway >> >>metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in >> >>order to move the bottom of your swing arc. >> > >> >So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability >> >of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? >> >> I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The >> bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and >> always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should >> emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, >> play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it >> low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it >> forward in your stance. > >Sorry, Larry, but that is nonsense and I can prove it even to you. > >If the *ball* is in the middle of the stance and you take a divot that >starts at the ball and goes forward, then the low point *must* be >further up than the ball. Hey, you do that and I will play it in the middle of my stance. See ya out there. Larry               Date: 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <kcqms2l8auo3aiqtoge4p27don8ai7cnh5@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:12:08 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: > > >In article <9ilms2t8mg1luvsi7qcodg97pq02m8n1ga@4ax.com>, > > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:32:10 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >> >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:00:05 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> >>Maybe, but the "bottom line" with every club is crisp contact-- > >> >>striking the ball a descending blow with irons and even fairway > >> >>metals. If you play the ball forward, you must surge forward in > >> >>order to move the bottom of your swing arc. > >> > > >> >So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability > >> >of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? > >> > >> I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The > >> bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and > >> always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should > >> emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, > >> play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it > >> low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it > >> forward in your stance. > > > >Sorry, Larry, but that is nonsense and I can prove it even to you. > > > >If the *ball* is in the middle of the stance and you take a divot that > >starts at the ball and goes forward, then the low point *must* be > >further up than the ball. > > Hey, you do that and I will play it in the middle of my stance. See > ya out there. Are you incapable of reading? You said the ball should be place in the middle of the stance *and* that the low point was in the middle. But the low point of a good golf swing is *ahead* of the ball; at least for balls struck on the ground rather than on a tee. Do you still claim the low point of your swing is in the middle of your stance? BTW, I caddied for a touring pro who was attempting to qualify for the Canadian Open held out here and got to watch him and the other members of our group from up close. I also got to watch other pros on the range both before and after the round including Jay Delsing, formerly of the PGA Tour and one of the eventual qualifiers. Ball position was not universally in the middle of the stance. Most played the ball in the middle of their stance for wedges and short irons, but progressively further forward as the clubs became longer. Whether or not most of the golfers out there were the very best of their profession doesn't matter. They are all light-years better than us and have had swing coaches for many years. Jack Nicklaus, whom you regularly cite as an authority that can't be dismissed, played the ball a small fixed distance inside his left heel and varied how far forward that was by varying the width of his stance. Narrow stance with short irons meant that the ball was close to the centre, wider stances with longer clubs made it further forward.                 Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:40:33 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com > wrote: "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the middle of your stance. " I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. Larry                   Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:18:35 From: Nobody's Business Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <n4bns21p2nlrnj2lgt6ffo51kt8517jv6v@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: > > "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > middle of your stance. " > > I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > > Larry Gee, Do you suppose the fact that you change what you claim is the perfect way to swing the club every six to eight weeks might have something to do with your lack of credibility? From what I've heard (and seen in your video postings) your swing is worse than mine by a good bit. So why would I trust your latest pronouncement over the one that contradicts it from two months ago?                     Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:24:14 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:18:35 GMT, Nobody's Business <noton@yourlife.com > wrote: >In article <n4bns21p2nlrnj2lgt6ffo51kt8517jv6v@4ax.com>, > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: >> >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the >> middle of your stance. " >> >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. >> >> Larry > >Gee, > >Do you suppose the fact that you change what you claim is the perfect >way to swing the club every six to eight weeks might have something to >do with your lack of credibility? Lets see. Ben Hogan was admittedly a hacker for years, then set out to learn a good golf swing. For YEARS he labored, writing down what he learned after range sessions. Slowly over 7+ years he evolved to the swing we saw-- but along the way he thought, then discarded, DOZENS of ideas and theories. What's wrong with evolving? I started golfing 5 years ago-- I went from total beginner to present 8 handicap -- how am I doing? If you can't change, can't discard what wasn't working, you are doomed to remain a high handicap hacker. Larry                       Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:36:19 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <lbbps2pjnborushq9ngfgvjg6ek91ig6lp@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:18:35 GMT, Nobody's Business > <noton@yourlife.com> wrote: > > >In article <n4bns21p2nlrnj2lgt6ffo51kt8517jv6v@4ax.com>, > > larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com> wrote: > >> > >> "if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, play the ball in the > >> middle of your stance. " > >> > >> I am sorry I posted that to people who cannot stop arguing long enough > >> to learn something that might help their game. Forget it. > >> > >> Larry > > > >Gee, > > > >Do you suppose the fact that you change what you claim is the perfect > >way to swing the club every six to eight weeks might have something to > >do with your lack of credibility? > > Lets see. Ben Hogan was admittedly a hacker for years, then set out > to learn a good golf swing. For YEARS he labored, writing down what > he learned after range sessions. Slowly over 7+ years he evolved to > the swing we saw-- but along the way he thought, then discarded, > DOZENS of ideas and theories. What's wrong with evolving? I started > golfing 5 years ago-- I went from total beginner to present 8 handicap > -- how am I doing? > > If you can't change, can't discard what wasn't working, you are doomed > to remain a high handicap hacker. > > Larry Change is great. But you keep telling us that you've "got it!"; that you now know precisely whether or not an element is *the* key to a good swing. Until you change your mind a month or two later. Do you get why that might affect people's trust in your next revelation?                 Date: 08 Feb 2007 12:20:57 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:39:35 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com > wrote: >PGA Tour and one of the eventual qualifiers. Ball position was not >universally in the middle of the stance. Most played the ball in the >middle of their stance for wedges and short irons, but progressively >further forward as the clubs became longer. > >Whether or not most of the golfers out there were the very best of their >profession doesn't matter. They are all light-years better than us and >have had swing coaches for many years. And pros teach that to us today. >Jack Nicklaus, whom you regularly cite as an authority that can't be >dismissed, played the ball a small fixed distance inside his left heel >and varied how far forward that was by varying the width of his stance. >Narrow stance with short irons meant that the ball was close to the >centre, wider stances with longer clubs made it further forward. Which doesn't mean that the swing hasn't been evolving - whether due to different equipment, different analysis tools, or different physical ability of the golfers. I never will be able to turn my hips the way Tiger does - but I might pick a shaft that fits me better than Jack's early shafts fit him.           Date: 08 Feb 2007 11:06:56 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:03:43 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >>So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability >>of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? > >I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The >bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and >always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should >emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, >play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it >low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it >forward in your stance. The books certainly taught something different from what you have observed. Does someone have a link to a video showing Hogan or an early Nicklaus setting up for his tee shot?             Date: 08 Feb 2007 10:18:30 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 11:06:56 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote: >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:03:43 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> >wrote: > >>>So what is the difference in the equipment or in the physical ability >>>of the tour pros that has caused this change over the decades? >> >>I am not sure it is a change. Human physiology hasn't changed. The >>bottom of the swing arc of a golfer standing with feet apart is and >>always has been the middle of his stance. My point is that we should >>emulate the pros, i.e. if you want to hit the ball crisply more often, >>play the ball in the middle of your stance. If you want to hit it >>low, play it back in your stance. If you want to top it, play it >>forward in your stance. > >The books certainly taught something different from what you have >observed. Does someone have a link to a video showing Hogan or an >early Nicklaus setting up for his tee shot? Tee shots are played forward--of course because the ball should be struck with the clubhead rising-- that is the reason we tee the ball. Every other shot, irons and fairway woods, is played in the middle of their stance. That was my observation at the Buick Invitational. Larry               Date: 08 Feb 2007 12:09:37 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:18:30 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >>The books certainly taught something different from what you have >>observed. Does someone have a link to a video showing Hogan or an >>early Nicklaus setting up for his tee shot? > >Tee shots are played forward--of course because the ball should be >struck with the clubhead rising-- that is the reason we tee the ball. >Every other shot, irons and fairway woods, is played in the middle of >their stance. That was my observation at the Buick Invitational. So you're talking long irons on the grass. I have replaced my 3I with a "rescue" wood, but I am interested in seeing pictures of where pros today position equivalent lofted clubs with pros of the past.                 Date: 08 Feb 2007 15:42:29 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:09:37 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net > wrote: >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:18:30 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> >wrote: > >>>The books certainly taught something different from what you have >>>observed. Does someone have a link to a video showing Hogan or an >>>early Nicklaus setting up for his tee shot? >> >>Tee shots are played forward--of course because the ball should be >>struck with the clubhead rising-- that is the reason we tee the ball. >>Every other shot, irons and fairway woods, is played in the middle of >>their stance. That was my observation at the Buick Invitational. > >So you're talking long irons on the grass. I have replaced my 3I >with a "rescue" wood, but I am interested in seeing pictures of where >pros today position equivalent lofted clubs with pros of the past. NO pro at Torrey Pines playing the Buick Invitational used anything resembling a "rescue" club. They play long irons. Larry                   Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:05:06 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:42:29 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >>So you're talking long irons on the grass. I have replaced my 3I >>with a "rescue" wood, but I am interested in seeing pictures of where >>pros today position equivalent lofted clubs with pros of the past. > >NO pro at Torrey Pines playing the Buick Invitational used anything >resembling a "rescue" club. They play long irons. Your reply seems that I need to edit my original post to: >> So you're talking long irons on the grass. I am interested in >> seeing pictures of where pros today position equivalent lofted >> clubs with pros of the past. Is that better?                   Date: 09 Feb 2007 07:31:32 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <99dns294ifrgueu9j0o52p62jdanrdor7h@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:09:37 -0700, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> > wrote: > > >On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:18:30 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com> > >wrote: > > > >>>The books certainly taught something different from what you have > >>>observed. Does someone have a link to a video showing Hogan or an > >>>early Nicklaus setting up for his tee shot? > >> > >>Tee shots are played forward--of course because the ball should be > >>struck with the clubhead rising-- that is the reason we tee the ball. > >>Every other shot, irons and fairway woods, is played in the middle of > >>their stance. That was my observation at the Buick Invitational. > > > >So you're talking long irons on the grass. I have replaced my 3I > >with a "rescue" wood, but I am interested in seeing pictures of where > >pros today position equivalent lofted clubs with pros of the past. > > NO pro at Torrey Pines playing the Buick Invitational used anything > resembling a "rescue" club. They play long irons. > > Larry Really? None of them, huh? You're sure? You mean pros like Jim Furyk? He might not have played the Buick, but he's accounted a pretty fair golfer, wouldn't you say? <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20060 7furyk.html > "HYBRIDS I've been a fan of hybrids since the late 1990s. I use one of the original Nickent Genex 3DX hybrids (18 degrees, Fujikura 904 HB Speeder, X-flex)." Why, look at that! A hybrid or "rescue club". Or how about, Davis Love III. He's won a tournament or two... <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20060 3davislovebag.html > "LONG IRONS/UTILITY I like muscle-back blades, but I've changed to a cavity-back Titleist 735.CM for my 2-iron. I sometimes use a 19-degree Titleist utility prototype that works well at some courses such as Hilton Head and Castle Pines." Then there's Sean O'Hair. He played at the Buick and guess what... <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20051 1ohairbag.html > "HYBRID Tour Edge Bazooka JMax Tour Iron-Wood, 19 degrees, UST IROD graphite shaft, X-flex. It's easier to hit than a 2-iron and more accurate for me than a 5-wood." And Zach Johnson played the Buick, didn't he... <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20050 1johnsonbag.html > "3--WOOD, HYBRID I've used a 14-degree Sonartec SS-03 (Grafalloy ProLite graphite shaft, X-flex) for two years. I've recently started using the new Titleist driving iron (503.H) with a UST Irod graphite shaft, X-flex." And Vijay Singh was there, and he's playing a *9*-wood... <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20040 7singhbag.html > Lee Janzen, too. He's got a rescue club. In fact, he had it back in 2002... <http://golfdigest.com/equipment/mybag/index.ssf?/equipment/mybag/gd20020 7janzenbag.html > So basically, all you've proven is that you're unobservant, or more realistically: lying. Because there is no way you could have looked in every pros bag to see what each and every one was using and thus *knew* that your statement that "NO pro at Torrey Pines" was using a rescue club was beyond the scope of your knowledge. And you wonder why people question your credibility...   Date: 06 Feb 2007 14:18:40 From: WW Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books (excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons.   Date: 06 Feb 2007 14:18:15 From: WW Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books (excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons.     Date: 10 Feb 2007 13:24:19 From: Birdie Bill Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Feb 10, 2:55 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com > wrote: > On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> > > > > >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows > >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. > >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. > >I'd like to see that, myself. > > Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that > case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit > down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball > rise in normal trajectory. > I wasn't talking about a ball on the ground, I was talking about teed balls. But since you mention it, if they are hitting a ball off the deck with the driver, why would they play it farther back than they do with their fairway woods? I don't think many pros are hitting driver off the deck with the new jumbo head drivers, any way. That's pretty much a thing of the past. The sweet spot is too high on the face of the new drivers.       Date: 10 Feb 2007 15:26:15 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 10 Feb 2007 13:24:19 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill@hotmail.com > wrote: >On Feb 10, 2:55 pm, larry <l...@deldata.com> wrote: >> On 9 Feb 2007 21:24:08 -0800, "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_b...@hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> >I think he was just asking if you can point to a video that shows >> >a Tour pro hitting a driver with the clubhead descending at impact. >> >I don't recall seeing one, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. >> >I'd like to see that, myself. >> >> Good players occasionally use driver for a ball on the grass. In that >> case they play the ball in the middle of their stance in order to hit >> down on it--which is necessary to impart backspin and make the ball >> rise in normal trajectory. >> > >I wasn't talking about a ball on the ground, I was talking about teed >balls. But since you mention it, if they are hitting a ball off the >deck with the driver, why would they play it farther back than >they do with their fairway woods? The design of golf clubs is to impart backspin on the ball. The design of golf balls is to fly MUCH farther than they would without the dimpled cover and the backspin. The spin makes them stay in the air at least 50 yards longer on a 200 yard drive. A driver shot off the turf would necessarily be hit with the clubhead descending-- both to ensure crisp contact and to impart the necessary spin to achieve flight trajectory and distance. So it would be played in the middle of the stance. Larry > >I don't think many pros are hitting driver off the deck with the new >jumbo head drivers, any way. That's pretty much a thing of the >past. The sweet spot is too high on the face of the new drivers.     Date: 08 Feb 2007 07:57:30 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On 6 Feb 2007 14:18:15 -0800, "WW" <dirtymm@msn.com > wrote: >funny you mention Bobby Jones, I just finished one of his books >(excellent reading). He is a proponent of forward ball position. >Personally... I move it slightly ahead on fairway woods & long irons. "Slightly ahead" is worlds different than playing every ball off your front foot heel--which is what SLAP recommends. But the pros, young and old, play every ball, long irons and fairway metals, in the middle of their stance--not even "slightly forward." They play the ball where the bottom of their swing should be-- IF they don't surge forward. My friend and I went to quite a bit of trouble to verify that with a dozen pros-- We watched both from the front and behind them. We would move to a position exactly even with the pros so that we were not making a parallax error. Larry   Date: 06 Feb 2007 21:25:09 From: George Orwell Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com > larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: Actually, your best ball position would be.....wait. What do you know about balls larrrrrry? You have none, you want none, and you worship those just like you in the ball-less dept. Know what you speak of before you type. How soon is your division headed over to the war escalation. A big mouth like you must be enlisting right? help support that dope you put in office.     Date: 08 Feb 2007 07:52:33 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:25:09 +0100 (CET), George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it > wrote: >In article <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com> >larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >Actually, your best ball position would be.....wait. What do you know about balls larrrrrry? You have none, you want none, and you worship those just like you in the ball-less dept. Know what you speak of before you type. How soon is your division headed over to the war escalation. A big mouth like you must be enlisting right? help support that dope you put in office. Good old RSG. So predictible. Someone sincerely reports what he saw the pros do, suggests everyone emulate that for their game improvement, and a moron replies with another personal attack. Do you wonder why only a few dozen people post here? Look in the mirror. The reason most good golfers have abandoned RSG is that kind of post-- it is boring, boring, boring! Larry       Date: 08 Feb 2007 21:06:20 From: George Orwell Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <6lhms2dfq5fp94iukuf5ou99847cvev4ou@4ax.com > larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:25:09 +0100 (CET), George Orwell > <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote: > > >In article <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com> > >larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > > > >Actually, your best ball position would be.....wait. What do you know about balls larrrrrry? You have none, you want none, and you worship those just like you in the ball-less dept. Know what you speak of before you type. How soon is your division headed over to the war escalation. A big mouth like you must be enlisting right? help support that dope you put in office. > > Good old RSG. So predictible. Someone sincerely reports what he saw > the pros do, suggests everyone emulate that for their game > improvement, and a moron replies with another personal attack. Do > you wonder why only a few dozen people post here? Look in the > mirror. The reason most good golfers have abandoned RSG is that kind > of post-- it is boring, boring, boring! i\If it's true that most good golfers have left, you would have been first to go. Actually, I like to see your hissy-fits. It reminds me of why bush and the neocons are losing everywhere but in their own feeble minds. Thanks for playing.         Date: 08 Feb 2007 20:18:27 From: Bobby Knight Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:06:20 +0100 (CET), George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it > wrote: >In article <6lhms2dfq5fp94iukuf5ou99847cvev4ou@4ax.com> >larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: >> The reason most good golfers have abandoned RSG is that kind >> of post-- it is boring, boring, boring! > >If it's true that most good golfers have left, you would have been first to go.<clip> > > How do you figure? Because LLLLLarrrrry SAYS he's a good golfer? There is absolutely no proof of this except his braggadocio, and who has given that credence? ___, \o           Date: 08 Feb 2007 22:38:03 From: George Orwell Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <v61ns25vcglc8rts1j78l359qqmdga2bog@4ax.com > Bobby Knight <bknight@conramp.net > wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:06:20 +0100 (CET), George Orwell > <nobody@mixmaster.it> wrote: > >In article <6lhms2dfq5fp94iukuf5ou99847cvev4ou@4ax.com> > >larry <larry@deldata.com> wrote: > >> The reason most good golfers have abandoned RSG is that kind > >> of post-- it is boring, boring, boring! > > > >If it's true that most good golfers have left, you would have been first to go.<clip> > > > > > How do you figure? Because LLLLLarrrrry SAYS he's a good golfer? > There is absolutely no proof of this except his braggadocio, and who > has given that credence? > ___, > \o >   Date: 06 Feb 2007 19:16:26 From: greenkeeper Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In message <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > writes >I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly >in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play >the ball with various clubs. > >It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, >especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as >suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play >it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when >they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle >lowpoint. > >So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage >yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! >Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. >You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. > >Larry Hi Larry, I was wondering if you had gone to the Buick as it is so close to home. Is this the first tournament on the PGA tour you have been to? And how did you enjoy the experience. Who did you follow or did you stay at one place? http://www.pbase.com/alancampbell/image/69811758 -- alan     Date: 08 Feb 2007 07:49:38 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:16:26 +0000, greenkeeper <greenkeeper@xxxalancampbell.demon.co.uk > wrote: >In message <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com>, larry ><larry@deldata.com> writes >>I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly >>in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play >>the ball with various clubs. >> >>It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, >>especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as >>suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play >>it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when >>they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle >>lowpoint. >> >>So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage >>yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! >>Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. >>You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. >> >>Larry > >Hi Larry, > >I was wondering if you had gone to the Buick as it is so close to home. >Is this the first tournament on the PGA tour you have been to? And how >did you enjoy the experience. Who did you follow or did you stay at one >place? I have lived in the San Diego area since 1971. I have visited the "Buick Invitational" a dozen times over th years, dating back to when it was the Andy Williams Open and other names. This year a friend and I got there Thursday at 7:30AM, watched them warmup on the range for an hour+, then followed Tiger for a few holes, then switched to Mickelson and then John Daly. It was fun watching the new PGA players just off the Nationwide Tour. As you remember, one of them Sneddeker, led the tournament for a day or so. The most rekable thing I noticed was their ball position for all shots, however. I had gotten into the habit of playing the ball forward-- after I had taken the Model Golf clinic in Las Vegas a few years ago-read the SLAP book and did all the drills, etc. Mann's theory is that playing it far forward encourages the amateur to "go get it" and forces him to strongly surge his weight forward during the downswing. So it was a revelation for me to see all the pros playing it in the middle of their stance. I immediately started working on the range-- to become accustomed to the ball in the middle of my stance. I like it. I am making much more crisp contact more consistently--and the ball goes straighter more often. Larry       Date: 08 Feb 2007 16:38:12 From: Rob Davis Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance larry wrote: > of my stance. I like it. I am making much more crisp contact more > consistently--and the ball goes straighter more often. > > Larry But wait ... you said before that you hit it straight "every time". How can you hit hit it straight more often than "every time"? Rob         Date: 08 Feb 2007 09:08:40 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:38:12 GMT, Rob Davis <davis.rob@verizon.net > wrote: >larry wrote: >> of my stance. I like it. I am making much more crisp contact more >> consistently--and the ball goes straighter more often. >> >> Larry > >But wait ... you said before that you hit it straight "every time". How >can you hit hit it straight more often than "every time"? > >Rob So do you bring your knife out before you log on to RSG or after you see the new posts? WHEN will you people understand that your continuing personal attacks ruin this forum? Hear the clicks? Those are the hundreds reading these posts and closing RSG in disgust as they see more personal attacks. Boring. Only the children with nothing else to do remain and throw mud at each other. Larry           Date: 08 Feb 2007 11:04:14 From: Howard Brazee Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:08:40 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: >>But wait ... you said before that you hit it straight "every time". How >>can you hit hit it straight more often than "every time"? >> >>Rob > >So do you bring your knife out before you log on to RSG or after you >see the new posts? WHEN will you people understand that your >continuing personal attacks ruin this forum? Hear the clicks? Those >are the hundreds reading these posts and closing RSG in disgust as >they see more personal attacks. Boring. Only the children with >nothing else to do remain and throw mud at each other. Who is attacking whom here?           Date: 08 Feb 2007 17:36:38 From: Bobby Knight Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:08:40 -0800, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > Boring. Only the children with nothing else to do remain and throw mud at each other. > >Larry Seeing that you're still around, that's obvious. -- ___, \o   Date: 06 Feb 2007 19:03:28 From: Not me Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance In article <1mhhs2dpaapkbn7bost34sdt3decqsmtm1@4ax.com >, larry <larry@deldata.com > wrote: > I went to the Buick Invitational and watched carefully from directly > in front or directly behind the pros --to determine where they play > the ball with various clubs. > > It is always the MIDDLE, even with long irons. I saw no pros, > especially not Tiger or the other leaders playing the ball forward as > suggested by SLAP and also by Jack Nicklaus. The only time they play > it inside their front foot is with driver, when it is teed and when > they want to hit the ball as the clubhead is rising after its middle > lowpoint. > > So if you have been trying to play it forward, trying to encourage > yourself to aggressively shift forward before contact, forget that! > Move it back to the middle of your stance and enjoy more consistency. > You will get more crisp contact and straighter ball flight. > > Larry You are absolutely hilarious. When you want to claim one thing -- that Bobby Jones swing is the correct one for everyone to emulate, despite massive changes in equipment since then, Jack Nicklaus is an absolute authority from which you try to give your claim credence. But, all of a sudden -- when talking about something he actually did and still does, he isn't an authority any more... LOL     Date: 08 Feb 2007 07:34:37 From: larry Subject: Re: Ball position in our stance On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:03:28 GMT, Not me <user@foobar.com > wrote: > >You are absolutely hilarious. So when you read something sincerely offered that would help your game, you ridicule it--and the source. Amazing. Of course that also explains why you are probably a 100+ hacker. Larry