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Main
Date: 09 Oct 2006 08:29:49
From: annika1980
Subject: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"IF YOU LIKE GOLF"
by Chris Dortch
October 8, 2006
Chattanooga golfers who play Ping equipment are going to have to search
a bit to find it these days, thanks to a mass purging of local accounts
by the company.
In ch, Ping sent so-called secret shoppers to every golf course and
club retailer in the city. If these undercover agents found a club
discounted below the company's iFit Pricing Policy, the offending
seller was immediately dropped. That's one-strike-and-you're-out,
no appeals, it's-been-nice-knowing-you, cold-heartedly cut off from
selling Ping products.
When the carnage was completed, only Chattanooga Golf and Country Club,
Windstone Golf Club and Pro Golf Discount were left with Ping accounts.
And several area club professionals are mad as hell.
I've played Ping clubs for more than 20 years and have been intensely
loyal to the brand, even buying a Ping golf bag when I think Sun
Mountain makes a better product. But after talking to several club
pros, I can see why many of them are upset.
Consider the case of Council Fire, whose director of golf, Hunt
Gilliland, has been a proponent of Ping clubs for years, even though
he's a member of the Titleist team. Richard Rebne, the club's head
professional, sold me my last set of Ping irons and is an expert in the
company's fitting system. But one day five putters arrived at Council
Fire, four at the same price and one slightly higher. The higher-priced
putter was accidentally priced the same as the others, and the secret
shopper lunged on it, bought the putter and reported Council Fire's
dastardly deed to Ping HQ.
A few months later, the sales receipt from that purchase and a letter
telling Gilliland that Council Fire was banned from selling Ping
equipment arrived. Gilliland ran the gamut of emotions when he read
that letter.
"I was mad at first, but now I'd say I'm just disappointed,"
Gilliland said. "I've always thought Ping had a great product.
Still do. I've put a lot of my members and other customers in Ping
equipment over the years, even though I'm a Titleist staff guy.
Because in a lot of situations, I thought they were better for the
individual.
"I really don't know what they're thinking. I've had a great
relationship with them. But my relationship will never be the same."
That goes double for Tad Holley, the head professional at Lookout
Mountain. Holley priced a $145 putter $10 below the price Ping
mandated.
"I just misread the price," Holley said. "They sent somebody to
my shop and they find one club that's been priced wrong, and I get
cut off.
"I think it's B.S. It seems like they've targeted Chattanooga for
some reason. And I don't understand what they're doing to their
sales reps. You're talking about people's livelihoods."
Of all the area professionals who got the shaft (sorry, couldn't
resist) from Ping, Tony Cabrera, of the Champions Club at Hampton Creek
might be the angriest. That's because a Ping mystery shopper came
into his shop one day and sweated down his assistant for a discount.
"He came in late one afternoon," Cabrera said. "The only one in
here was my assistant. He kept saying that he really wanted this club,
and that he could get it cheaper down the road. He kept on and on. My
assistant finally said 'All I can do is save you tax,' and gave him
a 10 percent discount. The club was priced correctly. He actually beat
us down to get the price.
"I don't have any use for it. I don't know what their motivation
is. I guess they know what they're doing, but I can't get my arms
around it. It looks like they're intentionally trying to shut
accounts down. I don't understand what their thinking is."
Surprisingly, Ping's drastic action has been barely reported in the
media, though it's apparently taken place nationwide. But in an
article in the Augusta (Ga.) Chronicle, a Ping spokesman said the
company's drastic action has been taken to preserve the company's
integrity.
"It's something we put in place to protect our brand," Bill Gates,
Ping's director of distribution and associate general counsel, told the
Chronicle. "It's something we apply to all of our accounts
consistently, and we don't have exceptions to it. We don't sell direct
to the public; we sell to retailers, and we do have certain policies in
place with them. Those policies are confidential between us and the
account."
Gilliland got the same song and dance when he put in a call to Ping.
"They essentially said, 'Management doesn't care what the
customers think of the policy,' " Gilliland said. "But I didn't
do anything unethical. It was an honest mistake we made to price a club
wrong.
"My best comparison would be if somebody ordered a set of clubs from
Ping and the shafts were wrong. The person who put those shafts in made
an honest mistake. Do you fire him for one mistake? That's what
they're doing to retailers who have been with them for years."
Ping's practices seem like professional suicide, even though the
company has long dominated the iron, putter and bag ket and has made
serious inroads with its drivers. How does cutting off its products
from the public help anyone-the consumer, the retailer, the sales rep
and the company?
Ping must be selling a lot of golf clubs and feel very confident about
its place in the industry. But this move has alienated retailers and
will eventually erode Ping's ket share. The company's espionage
shenanigans are a far cry from the days when Ping founder Karsten
Solheim sold his funky sounding putter out of the trunk of his car in
the early 1960s. Solheim built his company on relationships with
grass-roots retailers, and now, long after he's dead and gone, Ping
has turned its back on those retailers.
Though Ping's ban isn't supposed to be permanent, a lot of formerly
enthusiastic retailers have essentially written the company off.
"I won't sell Ping again," Cabrera said. "I hate to be like
that. But if a customer comes into my shop wanting a G5 [driver], I'm
going to try and put him in something else."
Several other pros and retailers have said they can live without Ping.
And even Bruce Etter, the head pro at Chattanooga Golf and Country
Club, is rethinking his position, though his shop survived the secret
shopper purging.
"I'm seriously considering not selling Ping," Etter said. "I
despise what they've done to the local pros, especially when they
bait and switch to get someone to sell them a club at a discount, then
shut them down. I've written the president of the company an e-mail
to let them know that.
"I could look at it now like I've got the ket cornered. But I
don't like the way they're treating people."
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 05:22:04
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Matt 'Ocho' Aamold wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > To the contrary. Free enterprise includes contracts which are freely
> > entered by both sides (Ping & the distributor) with terms spelled out
> > in that contract. What wouldn't be free enterprise would be the
> > government butting their nose in to tell private parties what they can
> > or cannot agree to amongst themselves.
>
> not quite, some practices are illegal (example below)
So what? So there are stupid laws out there that companies have to
follow.
There are PLENTY of laws that are contradictory to free enterprise.
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 19:04:46
From: Matt 'Ocho' Aamold
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
> So what? So there are stupid laws out there that companies have to
> follow.
>
> There are PLENTY of laws that are contradictory to free enterprise.
the MAP scheme was not free enterprise, all it was doing was allowing one
store to advertise and use the record companies money therefore have higher
prices that the competiors that couldn't advertise could afford to, the
record companies shifted the balance to the stores that would make bigger
profits for them. That is illegal
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 05:20:22
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Matt 'Ocho' Aamold wrote:
> "Barrie St" <corovian@exemail.com.au> wrote in message
> news:eghprm$n0h$1@emma.aioe.org...
> > Very interesting story. In Australia (where I live) Retail Price
> > Maintainance, as its known, is illegal, and any mfr. who attempts to
> > regulate the end ket price is prosecuted, and the fines are hefty.
> >
> > I would have assumed the USA, as a bastion of free enterprise, would have
> > nuked any attempt to so regulate the end user price. Its great to have a
> > cosy arrangement like this; mfrs and dealers can rattle off reasons why
> > "its in the best interests of everybody". But where's the competition? I
> > assume volume discounts etc are offered, so the level playing field isn't
> > exactly level.
> >
> > Seems to me a practice like RPM would be anathema to the USA.
> >
> > Barrie
>
> Price fixing is supposed to be illegal in the US as well; somehow it is
> often overlooked or loopholes are used.
Sell your product the same amount as your competitor, it's price
fixing,
Sell it for less, it's dumping
Sell it for more, it's gouging.
What's a businessman to do?
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Date: 13 Oct 2006 19:00:09
From: Matt 'Ocho' Aamold
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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it's not the shop that price fixes. The 'fix' is placed by the likes of
Ping, and they do not sell their clubs for the same amount as their
competitiors
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
> Sell your product the same amount as your competitor, it's price
> fixing,
> Sell it for less, it's dumping
> Sell it for more, it's gouging.
>
> What's a businessman to do?
>
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 06:01:45
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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> I would have assumed the USA, as a bastion of free
> enterprise, would have nuked any attempt to so regulate the
> end user price. Its great to have a cosy arrangement like
> this; mfrs and dealers can rattle off reasons why "its in
> the best interests of everybody". But where's the
> competition? I assume volume discounts etc are offered, so
> the level playing field isn't exactly level.
>
> Seems to me a practice like RPM would be anathema to the USA.
To the contrary. Free enterprise includes contracts which are freely
entered by both sides (Ping & the distributor) with terms spelled out
in that contract. What wouldn't be free enterprise would be the
government butting their nose in to tell private parties what they can
or cannot agree to amongst themselves.
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 22:40:20
From: Matt 'Ocho' Aamold
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
> To the contrary. Free enterprise includes contracts which are freely
> entered by both sides (Ping & the distributor) with terms spelled out
> in that contract. What wouldn't be free enterprise would be the
> government butting their nose in to tell private parties what they can
> or cannot agree to amongst themselves.
not quite, some practices are illegal (example below)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-09-30-cd-settlement_x.htm
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Date: 11 Oct 2006 13:53:24
From: Barrie Smart
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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annika1980 wrote:
> "IF YOU LIKE GOLF"
> by Chris Dortch
>
> October 8, 2006
>
> Chattanooga golfers who play Ping equipment are going to have to search
> a bit to find it these days, thanks to a mass purging of local accounts
> by the company.
>
> In ch, Ping sent so-called secret shoppers to every golf course and
> club retailer in the city. If these undercover agents found a club
> discounted below the company's iFit Pricing Policy, the offending
> seller was immediately dropped. That's one-strike-and-you're-out,
> no appeals, it's-been-nice-knowing-you, cold-heartedly cut off from
> selling Ping products.
> (Snip)
>
Very interesting story. In Australia (where I live) Retail
Price Maintainance, as its known, is illegal, and any mfr.
who attempts to regulate the end ket price is prosecuted,
and the fines are hefty.
I would have assumed the USA, as a bastion of free
enterprise, would have nuked any attempt to so regulate the
end user price. Its great to have a cosy arrangement like
this; mfrs and dealers can rattle off reasons why "its in
the best interests of everybody". But where's the
competition? I assume volume discounts etc are offered, so
the level playing field isn't exactly level.
Seems to me a practice like RPM would be anathema to the USA.
Barrie
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 22:37:10
From: Matt 'Ocho' Aamold
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"Barrie St" <corovian@exemail.com.au > wrote in message
news:eghprm$n0h$1@emma.aioe.org...
> Very interesting story. In Australia (where I live) Retail Price
> Maintainance, as its known, is illegal, and any mfr. who attempts to
> regulate the end ket price is prosecuted, and the fines are hefty.
>
> I would have assumed the USA, as a bastion of free enterprise, would have
> nuked any attempt to so regulate the end user price. Its great to have a
> cosy arrangement like this; mfrs and dealers can rattle off reasons why
> "its in the best interests of everybody". But where's the competition? I
> assume volume discounts etc are offered, so the level playing field isn't
> exactly level.
>
> Seems to me a practice like RPM would be anathema to the USA.
>
> Barrie
Price fixing is supposed to be illegal in the US as well; somehow it is
often overlooked or loopholes are used.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 20:48:32
From: Gordo
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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annika1980 wrote:
> "IF YOU LIKE GOLF"
> by Chris Dortch
>
> October 8, 2006
>
><had to snip the Randy Brown length post>
As stated on numerous other boards, Ping's policies are well known.
Whether the secret shopper 'beat down' and assistant to ultimately get
a discount, or someone just tossed them a bone, it's still giving a
discount. Against their policies. End of line.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 13:44:31
From: Steven Paul
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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In article <1160407789.169885.31300@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
annika1980 <annika1980@aol.com > wrote:
> I've put a lot of my members and other customers in Ping
> equipment over the years, even though I'm a Titleist staff guy.
I have a feeling the next letter he gets is going to be from Titleist.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 22:07:28
From: Head Shot
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Ping got my dog pregnant and left the toilet seat up.
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 18:26:07
From: The_Professor
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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annika1980 wrote:
snippit...
They've been doing it everywhere. Some guy in Atlanta was whining that
they pulled an account because they gave veterans discounts.
Deliberatly overpricing the product and then insisting retailers sell
for that ridiculous price is, well, ridiculous. I've always liked Ping,
but their products are so grossly overpriced for what you get I'd feel
like a foll buying their stuff. I do have one Ping putter I got a few
years ago on a closeout deal...I'd better not say where I got it though!
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 17:03:52
From: dugjustdug
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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On Oct 9, 2:59 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com > wrote:
> WOW - Carvin is still in business! I remember running into them as a kid in
> the 1960's when I was basically a "22 handicap guitar player". Even back
> then I wondered how they could run an instrument (and amplifier) business
> when nobody could try anything out.
>
> Guess they must be doing something right.
Yep. Still schlepping their gear via every guitar magazine I come
across. I kicked it around when I bought my last amp, but, never saw
any of them in action, so, I went a different route. They're also
pretty big in Mixer/Ampliphication/Speakers.
"22 Handicap Guitar Player", eh. You realize, of course, that means
you can still play some songs REAL GOOD.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 00:51:22
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"dugjustdug" <prestigerealty@yvn.com > wrote in message
news:1160438632.300163.194140@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2:59 pm, "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...@ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote:
> > WOW - Carvin is still in business! I remember running into them as a kid
in
> > the 1960's when I was basically a "22 handicap guitar player". Even back
> > then I wondered how they could run an instrument (and amplifier)
business
> > when nobody could try anything out.
> >
> > Guess they must be doing something right.
>
> Yep. Still schlepping their gear via every guitar magazine I come
> across. I kicked it around when I bought my last amp, but, never saw
> any of them in action, so, I went a different route. They're also
> pretty big in Mixer/Ampliphication/Speakers.
>
> "22 Handicap Guitar Player", eh. You realize, of course, that means
> you can still play some songs REAL GOOD.
>
Not any more. I took up classical guitar in the 80's but literally have not
had one (electric or nylon strings) in my hands now for maybe 15 years.
dave
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 14:24:43
From: dugjustdug
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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On Oct 9, 11:43 am, "wtrplnet" <w...@YOUKNOWTHEDRILLexcite.com > wrote:
> Look for Ping to eventually sell direct to consumers. I've seen this ploy
> before in another sports industry. In the name of protecting the integrity
> of the product, or protecting retailers, the manufacturer makes it difficult
> or impossible for retailers to meet the terms of sale. Eventually there are
> so few retailers the manufacturer claims that they have no choice but to go
> direct.
Carvin does this in the music industry. They have a good reputation
for products but have a very difficult time getting new clients because
- like in golf - musicians like to see how the instrument feels before
making a purchase. If Ping doesn't watch out, or figure out how to
ket around this weakness in the "consumer direct" business model, I
suspect they will lose their stature in this competitive ket.
Short Term makes sense, but, not long term.
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 21:59:12
From: Dave Lee
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"dugjustdug" <prestigerealty@yvn.com > wrote in message
news:1160429082.985984.279640@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> On Oct 9, 11:43 am, "wtrplnet" <w...@YOUKNOWTHEDRILLexcite.com> wrote:
> > Look for Ping to eventually sell direct to consumers. I've seen this
ploy
> > before in another sports industry. In the name of protecting the
integrity
> > of the product, or protecting retailers, the manufacturer makes it
difficult
> > or impossible for retailers to meet the terms of sale. Eventually there
are
> > so few retailers the manufacturer claims that they have no choice but to
go
> > direct.
>
> Carvin does this in the music industry. They have a good reputation
> for products but have a very difficult time getting new clients because
> - like in golf - musicians like to see how the instrument feels before
> making a purchase. If Ping doesn't watch out, or figure out how to
> ket around this weakness in the "consumer direct" business model, I
> suspect they will lose their stature in this competitive ket.
>
> Short Term makes sense, but, not long term.
>
WOW - Carvin is still in business! I remember running into them as a kid in
the 1960's when I was basically a "22 handicap guitar player". Even back
then I wondered how they could run an instrument (and amplifier) business
when nobody could try anything out.
Guess they must be doing something right.
dave
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 11:16:45
From: Draco
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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<SNIP >
> "It's something we put in place to protect our brand," Bill Gates,
> Ping's director of distribution and associate general counsel, told the
> Chronicle. "It's something we apply to all of our accounts
> consistently, and we don't have exceptions to it. We don't sell direct
> to the public; we sell to retailers, and we do have certain policies in
> place with them. Those policies are confidential between us and the
> account."
<snip >
It is very much like the photo industry. The manufactors
set a minimum advertise price that dealers can
run ads for the equipment. But I can't see a manufactor
telling any retailer how sell. The retailer has
bought the equipment from the manufactor and it is
theirs. If they want to give it away and stay in business,
the manufactor should have no say in that. They have already
received their money from the retailer.
Sounds like they want their cake and eat it too.
Draco
Getting even isn't good enough.
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 10:00:52
From: annika1980
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Larry Bud wrote:
>
> So I should hate Ping because the equipment deals they make with the
> distributors are violated by the distributors?
>
> Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense!
I hope they take everyone's accounts away. That'll show em.
Ping just signed their own death warrant.
I think all PGA pros should boycott Ping.
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 11:43:32
From: wtrplnet
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"annika1980" <annika1980@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1160413252.156620.160270@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Larry Bud wrote:
> >
> > So I should hate Ping because the equipment deals they make with the
> > distributors are violated by the distributors?
> >
> > Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense!
>
> I hope they take everyone's accounts away. That'll show em.
> Ping just signed their own death warrant.
> I think all PGA pros should boycott Ping.
>
Look for Ping to eventually sell direct to consumers. I've seen this ploy
before in another sports industry. In the name of protecting the integrity
of the product, or protecting retailers, the manufacturer makes it difficult
or impossible for retailers to meet the terms of sale. Eventually there are
so few retailers the manufacturer claims that they have no choice but to go
direct.
The attraction of huge gins and total control of distribution is great,
but in the end few brands are strong enough to pull it off. Without "boots
on the ground" promoting the product to customers who depend on retailers
for good service and advice Ping will find out that selling online
eventually comes down to one thing, price. Prices of Ping will fall to the
point that their gin isn't that much better than it was before, and they
will lack the loyalty of retailers who formerly promoted their product.
If Ping were serious about maintaining a dealer network they could easily
have sent area reps out to talk to the dealers after the secret shopper
incidents. Simply cutting retailers off for making questionable 'mistakes'
in individual sales makes no sense. If retailers were attempting to grab
local ket share by offering unauthorized discounts on current stock it
would be a different story.
Just my thoughts,
Alan
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 21:30:31
From: sfb
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Who is going to fit the clubs?
You are assuming that Ping hadn't previously discussed pricing with their
retailers.
"wtrplnet" <wd12@YOUKNOWTHEDRILLexcite.com > wrote in message
news:_-2dneePyenEBbfYnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> Look for Ping to eventually sell direct to consumers. I've seen this ploy
> before in another sports industry. In the name of protecting the
> integrity
> of the product, or protecting retailers, the manufacturer makes it
> difficult
> or impossible for retailers to meet the terms of sale. Eventually there
> are
> so few retailers the manufacturer claims that they have no choice but to
> go
> direct.
>
> The attraction of huge gins and total control of distribution is great,
> but in the end few brands are strong enough to pull it off. Without
> "boots
> on the ground" promoting the product to customers who depend on retailers
> for good service and advice Ping will find out that selling online
> eventually comes down to one thing, price. Prices of Ping will fall to
> the
> point that their gin isn't that much better than it was before, and
> they
> will lack the loyalty of retailers who formerly promoted their product.
>
> If Ping were serious about maintaining a dealer network they could easily
> have sent area reps out to talk to the dealers after the secret shopper
> incidents. Simply cutting retailers off for making questionable
> 'mistakes'
> in individual sales makes no sense. If retailers were attempting to grab
> local ket share by offering unauthorized discounts on current stock it
> would be a different story.
>
> Just my thoughts,
> Alan
>
>
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 09:55:38
From: Larry Bud
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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annika1980 wrote:
> "IF YOU LIKE GOLF"
> by Chris Dortch
>
> October 8, 2006
>
> Chattanooga golfers who play Ping equipment are going to have to search
> a bit to find it these days, thanks to a mass purging of local accounts
> by the company.
So I should hate Ping because the equipment deals they make with the
distributors are violated by the distributors?
Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense!
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Date: 12 Oct 2006 22:29:51
From: Matt 'Ocho' Aamold
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1160412938.260363.209780@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> So I should hate Ping because the equipment deals they make with the
> distributors are violated by the distributors?
>
> Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense!
>
This isn't the first I've heard of Ping pulling crap like that. I've been
told by many reps that profit gins and Ping are never spoken in the same
sentence.
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Date: 09 Oct 2006 21:53:59
From: Long Drive
Subject: Re: Another good reason to hate PING!
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Other manufacturers' have the same pricing policy (Callaway, Titleist, Cobra
and Taylor Made) but have rarely taken action other than some rogue internet
sales by certain accounts. I have known a couple of Ping accounts in
Illinois that have been warned for similar practices. Ping certainly takes
the product and brand integrity thing most seriously. I help out at a local
shop from time to time and do not qualify for the Ping Pro Only pricing -
but another rep from a brand that shall remain nameless gives away product
to anyone to get the brand in front of others. It also sounds like Ping is
leading the way again... and taking the high road - because they can.
"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1160412938.260363.209780@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> annika1980 wrote:
>> "IF YOU LIKE GOLF"
>> by Chris Dortch
>>
>> October 8, 2006
>>
>> Chattanooga golfers who play Ping equipment are going to have to search
>> a bit to find it these days, thanks to a mass purging of local accounts
>> by the company.
>
> So I should hate Ping because the equipment deals they make with the
> distributors are violated by the distributors?
>
> Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense!
>
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